1 00:00:15,396 --> 00:00:23,716 Speaker 1: Pushkin. There's a place in our world where the known 2 00:00:23,796 --> 00:00:28,756 Speaker 1: things go. A corridor of the mind stalked with evidence, 3 00:00:29,196 --> 00:00:33,116 Speaker 1: packed with proof. I've got this one box in here 4 00:00:33,316 --> 00:00:39,076 Speaker 1: was stuff from my childhood, old report cards, softball team photographs, 5 00:00:39,676 --> 00:00:44,636 Speaker 1: girl Scout badges. In this Russia in Review magazine I 6 00:00:44,676 --> 00:00:47,716 Speaker 1: made out of magic markers and construction paper in nineteen 7 00:00:47,796 --> 00:00:51,396 Speaker 1: seventy nine, when I was twelve in seventh grade for 8 00:00:51,516 --> 00:00:55,036 Speaker 1: social studies. It's got an article on the space race, 9 00:00:55,596 --> 00:00:58,836 Speaker 1: A little history that starts with Sputnik. There's a story 10 00:00:58,876 --> 00:01:04,636 Speaker 1: about Samovars, a little biography. Joseph Stalin, a Russian dictator, 11 00:01:05,076 --> 00:01:07,756 Speaker 1: was a man who instilled terror in people his early life. 12 00:01:07,796 --> 00:01:12,676 Speaker 1: Made been the cause of this, plus fake ads, Apski Coolska, 13 00:01:12,956 --> 00:01:16,516 Speaker 1: the communist at Kola. I made up one article called 14 00:01:16,916 --> 00:01:19,676 Speaker 1: on tour in Moscow, where I meet people on the 15 00:01:19,716 --> 00:01:22,916 Speaker 1: street and I say things like hello miss Where American 16 00:01:22,996 --> 00:01:26,596 Speaker 1: reporters would you mind a short interview? I loved imagining 17 00:01:26,636 --> 00:01:31,276 Speaker 1: myself as a foreign correspondent. All expenses were paid. I 18 00:01:31,356 --> 00:01:34,516 Speaker 1: was all packed in money from my trip to Russia. 19 00:01:34,956 --> 00:01:37,036 Speaker 1: What I didn't know when I was twelve was at 20 00:01:37,076 --> 00:01:39,716 Speaker 1: the same time as I was imagining flying to Moscow 21 00:01:39,916 --> 00:01:43,876 Speaker 1: to interview Russians about communism. A guy named Valentine Zorin, 22 00:01:44,356 --> 00:01:47,516 Speaker 1: the Walter Cronkite of the Soviet Union, was flying to 23 00:01:47,556 --> 00:01:51,996 Speaker 1: the United States from Moscow to interview Americans about capitalism 24 00:01:52,036 --> 00:01:57,996 Speaker 1: for Soviet television. So step back across the passage of 25 00:01:58,036 --> 00:02:04,316 Speaker 1: time to follow in the footsteps of a Soviet reporter 26 00:02:05,236 --> 00:02:16,156 Speaker 1: by historian of sorts. Valentin Zarin, known as the Walter 27 00:02:16,316 --> 00:02:19,516 Speaker 1: Cronkite of the Soviet Union, is filming a documentary on 28 00:02:19,556 --> 00:02:23,716 Speaker 1: the United States. In nineteen seventy eight, Valentin Zorin went 29 00:02:23,716 --> 00:02:27,796 Speaker 1: to southern California. He went to Disneyland. A local public 30 00:02:27,836 --> 00:02:30,716 Speaker 1: TV station sent a reporter out to Anaheim to cover 31 00:02:30,796 --> 00:02:35,236 Speaker 1: his visit. The sinister gentleman in the Navy blue jacket 32 00:02:35,356 --> 00:02:37,916 Speaker 1: might have bought his way into Disneyland, as thousands of 33 00:02:37,996 --> 00:02:41,876 Speaker 1: Russians have, but Valentin zorn wanted to bring a film crew. 34 00:02:42,156 --> 00:02:45,596 Speaker 1: The Soviet newsman had been forbidden to film Universal Studios 35 00:02:45,596 --> 00:02:48,636 Speaker 1: and the Hollywood Sign and he said the influence of 36 00:02:48,716 --> 00:02:51,876 Speaker 1: right wing conservative forces in Los Angeles were beginning to 37 00:02:51,956 --> 00:02:55,876 Speaker 1: hedge him in. Zorin had been complaining about conservatives who'd 38 00:02:55,916 --> 00:02:59,756 Speaker 1: been decrying his visit, but at Disneyland, Zorn said he 39 00:02:59,836 --> 00:03:03,916 Speaker 1: didn't want to talk politics. Mister Zen, are you still 40 00:03:04,676 --> 00:03:09,756 Speaker 1: sensing the right wing and conservative influences you spoke of 41 00:03:09,796 --> 00:03:13,396 Speaker 1: a day or two ago. I think that Disneyland not 42 00:03:13,556 --> 00:03:20,636 Speaker 1: good place for such discussion. Right, Welcome to the last archive. 43 00:03:21,676 --> 00:03:23,596 Speaker 1: The show about how we know what we know and 44 00:03:23,676 --> 00:03:25,796 Speaker 1: why it seems lately is if we don't know anything 45 00:03:25,836 --> 00:03:30,596 Speaker 1: at all. I'm Joe Lapoor. This season, I'm trying to 46 00:03:30,596 --> 00:03:33,396 Speaker 1: trace the history of doubt. I've been arguing that the 47 00:03:33,516 --> 00:03:35,836 Speaker 1: rise and spread of new kinds of doubt over the 48 00:03:35,836 --> 00:03:39,796 Speaker 1: course of the twentieth century was accelerated by changing technologies 49 00:03:39,796 --> 00:03:44,276 Speaker 1: of communication, beginning with the radio, by the increasing sophistication 50 00:03:44,396 --> 00:03:48,156 Speaker 1: and complexity of scientific research, and most of all, by 51 00:03:48,196 --> 00:03:51,356 Speaker 1: the lies told in wartime, the First World War, the 52 00:03:51,396 --> 00:03:55,156 Speaker 1: Second World War, and the Cold War. This episode, I 53 00:03:55,196 --> 00:03:58,836 Speaker 1: wanted to think about something a little different, not lies exactly, 54 00:03:59,116 --> 00:04:05,636 Speaker 1: but mutual misunderstanding, misperception and misinformation. This episode sewing doubt 55 00:04:05,916 --> 00:04:12,076 Speaker 1: as foreign policy. Look right at the top here, let 56 00:04:12,156 --> 00:04:15,476 Speaker 1: me put a few cards on the table. Here's a 57 00:04:15,516 --> 00:04:18,996 Speaker 1: really good reason to look at Soviet propaganda. It's a 58 00:04:19,036 --> 00:04:22,196 Speaker 1: lot like Trump propaganda, the stuff Donald Trump said, the 59 00:04:22,236 --> 00:04:25,076 Speaker 1: whole of his campaign, the whole of his administration, the 60 00:04:25,116 --> 00:04:29,116 Speaker 1: whole of his post presidency. In Soviet propaganda, as in 61 00:04:29,196 --> 00:04:32,756 Speaker 1: Trump's America, nothing is what it seems. All the news 62 00:04:32,836 --> 00:04:36,636 Speaker 1: is fake and there are conspiracies everywhere. This has been 63 00:04:36,676 --> 00:04:40,036 Speaker 1: happening for a long time. In twenty sixteen, right after 64 00:04:40,036 --> 00:04:43,636 Speaker 1: the US election, a certain sort of Russian misinformation operation 65 00:04:43,716 --> 00:04:47,556 Speaker 1: made headlines and brought reporters to a nondescript building in 66 00:04:47,636 --> 00:04:53,676 Speaker 1: Saint Petersburg. What's allegedly happening here the manufacture of fake news. 67 00:04:53,716 --> 00:04:57,916 Speaker 1: This is a so called troll factory. Troll factories are 68 00:04:57,956 --> 00:05:01,276 Speaker 1: only the latest weapons in a very very old propaganda war. 69 00:05:02,396 --> 00:05:04,036 Speaker 1: But that's why I want to take a close look 70 00:05:04,036 --> 00:05:07,556 Speaker 1: at the ideological weapons valentin's or In helped build and 71 00:05:07,676 --> 00:05:12,236 Speaker 1: the hazardous waste left behind. But I've got to confess 72 00:05:12,436 --> 00:05:14,956 Speaker 1: I had never heard of him until Julia Barton, the 73 00:05:15,036 --> 00:05:20,036 Speaker 1: last Archives brilliant editor, told me about him. I'm just 74 00:05:20,076 --> 00:05:23,196 Speaker 1: a big USSR nerd and I was doing a bunch 75 00:05:23,196 --> 00:05:26,236 Speaker 1: of research, and as one does, I ran across some 76 00:05:26,316 --> 00:05:29,556 Speaker 1: of Zorin's stuff while doing that, and it just fell 77 00:05:29,596 --> 00:05:32,596 Speaker 1: into this rabbit hole of Zorin. Julia found a bunch 78 00:05:32,636 --> 00:05:36,956 Speaker 1: of Zorn's documentaries on routube that's Russian YouTube, and watched 79 00:05:36,956 --> 00:05:40,516 Speaker 1: his work over and over. It's so well made, and 80 00:05:41,556 --> 00:05:45,556 Speaker 1: a lot of Soviet TVs not that watchable, and this 81 00:05:45,636 --> 00:05:55,716 Speaker 1: is very Differentia. Julia showed me one of his films, 82 00:05:55,996 --> 00:06:01,036 Speaker 1: a little number called America Autumn nineteen seventy one. When 83 00:06:01,076 --> 00:06:03,836 Speaker 1: this film opens, Zorin is sitting on a rock in 84 00:06:03,876 --> 00:06:06,396 Speaker 1: the woods. He's holding a small book in his hands, 85 00:06:06,436 --> 00:06:12,156 Speaker 1: maybe a book of poetry. He's looking directly into the camera. Yeah. Boys, 86 00:06:18,116 --> 00:06:21,036 Speaker 1: what's on the mind of Americans as they find themselves 87 00:06:21,076 --> 00:06:24,836 Speaker 1: near the end of the year nineteen seventy one? What's 88 00:06:24,836 --> 00:06:27,676 Speaker 1: on the minds of Americans? We will try to answer 89 00:06:27,756 --> 00:06:32,156 Speaker 1: this question by visiting bureaucrats in DC on the streets 90 00:06:32,156 --> 00:06:36,636 Speaker 1: of New York. Like, the footage is just so fun. 91 00:06:36,716 --> 00:06:41,836 Speaker 1: It has this kind of mix of you know, James 92 00:06:41,876 --> 00:06:44,796 Speaker 1: Bond and David Attenborough in which we are the monkeys, 93 00:06:45,596 --> 00:06:48,516 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Yeah, not a normal position 94 00:06:48,556 --> 00:06:52,356 Speaker 1: for Americans to feel themselves in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And 95 00:06:52,396 --> 00:06:54,836 Speaker 1: they love that about it. That there's also kind of 96 00:06:54,876 --> 00:06:57,796 Speaker 1: I was thinking about you know, nineteen sixty eight and 97 00:06:57,876 --> 00:07:00,956 Speaker 1: Planet of the Apes and sort of like looking on 98 00:07:01,196 --> 00:07:04,196 Speaker 1: a kind of fallen version of what America is through 99 00:07:04,836 --> 00:07:08,676 Speaker 1: the eyes of some different people. Yeah, Julia got interested 100 00:07:08,716 --> 00:07:10,916 Speaker 1: in Russia as a kid at the same age as 101 00:07:10,956 --> 00:07:14,716 Speaker 1: I did. In eighth grade, I did a paper about 102 00:07:15,556 --> 00:07:19,076 Speaker 1: the Russians and how the Russians were people, and I 103 00:07:19,156 --> 00:07:22,196 Speaker 1: was just like, I get it now, I understand this 104 00:07:22,236 --> 00:07:25,556 Speaker 1: country that we're not supposed to understand. You know, it's weird, 105 00:07:25,596 --> 00:07:28,756 Speaker 1: this thing. Julia and I share Americans, our age share 106 00:07:29,236 --> 00:07:32,636 Speaker 1: as if it's a generational marker. But unlike me, Julia 107 00:07:32,716 --> 00:07:36,876 Speaker 1: got hooked, studied Russian, traveled to the Soviet Union, and 108 00:07:36,916 --> 00:07:39,716 Speaker 1: then later when she was older, she got obsessed with Zorin. 109 00:07:40,196 --> 00:07:46,356 Speaker 1: The americanist who studied us. Valentine Jorn was born in 110 00:07:46,436 --> 00:07:49,156 Speaker 1: nineteen twenty five, joined the Communist Party when he was 111 00:07:49,196 --> 00:07:52,316 Speaker 1: a student in Moscow. He got the best education, but 112 00:07:52,476 --> 00:07:55,036 Speaker 1: mixed in with mass and history was a steady diet 113 00:07:55,076 --> 00:07:59,396 Speaker 1: of Soviet conspiracy propaganda. Like in nineteen forty five, when 114 00:07:59,396 --> 00:08:02,556 Speaker 1: after FDR died, one of Zorn's professors claimed to prove 115 00:08:02,756 --> 00:08:06,036 Speaker 1: beyond a doubt that Roosevelt had been poisoned on orders 116 00:08:06,036 --> 00:08:10,756 Speaker 1: of Harry as Truman. Okay, so that's bonkers, but it 117 00:08:10,956 --> 00:08:13,596 Speaker 1: tells you about the education Zorn got, and it says 118 00:08:13,596 --> 00:08:16,716 Speaker 1: a lot that he believed this. Apparently all his life. 119 00:08:17,196 --> 00:08:20,196 Speaker 1: In Zorn's America, nothing was what had seemed. All the 120 00:08:20,236 --> 00:08:23,956 Speaker 1: news was fake, and there were conspiracies everywhere. In the 121 00:08:24,076 --> 00:08:27,316 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, Zorn trained to become a diplomat, but his 122 00:08:27,396 --> 00:08:29,996 Speaker 1: mother was Jewish and the Soviets didn't trust Jews to 123 00:08:30,036 --> 00:08:33,916 Speaker 1: serve as diplomats, so instead he became a radio commentator 124 00:08:34,116 --> 00:08:38,236 Speaker 1: and continued his studies, earning a doctorate in history, Doctor Zorn, 125 00:08:38,636 --> 00:08:42,276 Speaker 1: Professor Zorn. In nineteen sixty three, a few days after 126 00:08:42,436 --> 00:08:45,716 Speaker 1: Lee Harvey Oswald shot and killed John F. Kennedy, Zorn 127 00:08:45,756 --> 00:08:48,676 Speaker 1: says he made his way to Dallas to investigate. He 128 00:08:48,796 --> 00:08:53,396 Speaker 1: began a quest to unmask America. He worked as a 129 00:08:53,396 --> 00:08:58,076 Speaker 1: reporter or documentary filmmaker and a television news commentator for years. 130 00:08:58,156 --> 00:09:00,276 Speaker 1: He hosted a show that was the Russian version of 131 00:09:00,396 --> 00:09:03,556 Speaker 1: Meet the Press. He was everywhere. He loved this joke. 132 00:09:04,436 --> 00:09:07,916 Speaker 1: I turned on the radio, Zorn turned on the TV. 133 00:09:08,476 --> 00:09:12,436 Speaker 1: Also's am I needed to turn on the iron but thought, Betra, 134 00:09:13,476 --> 00:09:15,956 Speaker 1: I don't really get that joke, but I still love it. 135 00:09:16,036 --> 00:09:18,836 Speaker 1: The point is he really was everywhere. He was the 136 00:09:18,876 --> 00:09:22,876 Speaker 1: Soviet Union's best known americanist and quite a serious journalist. 137 00:09:25,596 --> 00:09:29,196 Speaker 1: His take on the world was so persuasive that it 138 00:09:29,276 --> 00:09:32,396 Speaker 1: became the take on America. And he also got to 139 00:09:32,396 --> 00:09:34,996 Speaker 1: go to places that a lot of americanists in the 140 00:09:34,996 --> 00:09:39,116 Speaker 1: Soviet Union never even got to go to America. M Yeah, 141 00:09:39,156 --> 00:09:41,556 Speaker 1: and then he's also you know, this kind of sexy, 142 00:09:41,716 --> 00:09:45,396 Speaker 1: devonair guy with a cigarette holder and his quoft hair 143 00:09:45,476 --> 00:09:50,556 Speaker 1: and right cool croppy glasses, like, you know, he's very 144 00:09:50,596 --> 00:09:53,556 Speaker 1: alluring and so like the combination of like the physically 145 00:09:53,556 --> 00:09:59,676 Speaker 1: alluring sort of intellectual, which is an unusual let me 146 00:09:59,756 --> 00:10:03,556 Speaker 1: just say it's an unusual mix. Yeah, and he's funny. 147 00:10:03,716 --> 00:10:06,876 Speaker 1: He's funny. Yeah, but then he's also reductive, right, but 148 00:10:06,956 --> 00:10:10,316 Speaker 1: which is also appealing. Right, But I am we will 149 00:10:10,316 --> 00:10:14,396 Speaker 1: sit in the powerful Senate chambers and sit with the unemployed. 150 00:10:15,156 --> 00:10:18,436 Speaker 1: We'll see things through the eyes of wolf Street trade 151 00:10:18,476 --> 00:10:22,636 Speaker 1: there and the eyes of the protesters against war and poverty. 152 00:10:23,516 --> 00:10:29,356 Speaker 1: That's America Fall of nineteen seventy one. There's a rule 153 00:10:29,396 --> 00:10:32,476 Speaker 1: about propaganda. It's going to have some basis. In fact, 154 00:10:32,916 --> 00:10:35,796 Speaker 1: the whole point of Soviet anti American propaganda at just 155 00:10:35,956 --> 00:10:39,756 Speaker 1: this moment was to unmask the myth of American greatness. 156 00:10:40,156 --> 00:10:44,596 Speaker 1: As the historian Dina Feinberg has pointed out, Zorin made 157 00:10:44,636 --> 00:10:48,276 Speaker 1: most of his documentaries about America during Day tat warming 158 00:10:48,316 --> 00:10:52,836 Speaker 1: period in US Soviet relations, during Americans were trying to 159 00:10:52,916 --> 00:10:57,156 Speaker 1: understand Soviets, and Soviets were trying to understand Americans on 160 00:10:57,236 --> 00:10:59,676 Speaker 1: the theory that mutual understanding was the only way the 161 00:10:59,716 --> 00:11:02,516 Speaker 1: Cold War could end. There are all sorts of Russianists 162 00:11:02,556 --> 00:11:04,956 Speaker 1: in the United States and all sorts of Americanists in 163 00:11:04,996 --> 00:11:10,316 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union, everyone calling for understanding, including American President 164 00:11:10,436 --> 00:11:15,796 Speaker 1: Jimmy Carter. Each of us has only one nation. We 165 00:11:15,996 --> 00:11:23,436 Speaker 1: both share the same world. Believing that Americans and Soviets 166 00:11:23,436 --> 00:11:27,836 Speaker 1: share the same world. That was Day Tante. Zorin, like 167 00:11:27,996 --> 00:11:32,036 Speaker 1: all Soviet journalists, followed directives from the State. His film 168 00:11:32,276 --> 00:11:35,996 Speaker 1: America Autumn nineteen seventy one came out at the very 169 00:11:36,036 --> 00:11:38,836 Speaker 1: beginning of Day Tante, so it's a softer take on 170 00:11:38,876 --> 00:11:41,396 Speaker 1: the United States. But if you go back just one 171 00:11:41,516 --> 00:11:45,196 Speaker 1: year to nineteen seventy just before Day tante. You see 172 00:11:45,236 --> 00:11:49,916 Speaker 1: a very different Zorin, more adversarial, more die capitalist pigs. 173 00:11:50,476 --> 00:11:53,836 Speaker 1: I want to understand this transition better. The problem is 174 00:11:54,316 --> 00:11:56,556 Speaker 1: I don't speak a word of Russian. So I called 175 00:11:56,556 --> 00:11:59,356 Speaker 1: it my Harvard colleague, Sir he Pokey, a professor of 176 00:11:59,436 --> 00:12:02,596 Speaker 1: Ukrainian history. He's the author of a terrific new book, 177 00:12:02,796 --> 00:12:06,396 Speaker 1: Nuclear Folly, a history of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Surrey 178 00:12:06,476 --> 00:12:09,636 Speaker 1: and I we'd taught history classes together, but I'd actually 179 00:12:09,636 --> 00:12:12,036 Speaker 1: never known much about his own history. He was born 180 00:12:12,036 --> 00:12:15,516 Speaker 1: in Russia and grew up in Ukraine. I was fascinated 181 00:12:15,516 --> 00:12:16,876 Speaker 1: to see that you were born in the year of 182 00:12:16,876 --> 00:12:22,916 Speaker 1: spot Nick. Yeah, I am a Spotney generation yesterday sister 183 00:12:23,156 --> 00:12:26,636 Speaker 1: child here. So and you said you grew up watching 184 00:12:26,716 --> 00:12:31,116 Speaker 1: Zorin as a kid, well as a teenager. Certainly my 185 00:12:31,676 --> 00:12:36,836 Speaker 1: father was watching him, and actually I watched him as well. 186 00:12:37,276 --> 00:12:41,236 Speaker 1: And again that was the window on them on the American, 187 00:12:41,396 --> 00:12:45,356 Speaker 1: on the United States. For a generation of Soviets, Zorn's 188 00:12:45,356 --> 00:12:48,556 Speaker 1: films were pretty much their only window on the United States. 189 00:12:49,236 --> 00:12:52,436 Speaker 1: Sir Hay born in nineteen fifty seven had watched Zorin 190 00:12:52,516 --> 00:12:55,276 Speaker 1: on TV as a teenager, but he had not seen 191 00:12:55,316 --> 00:12:57,996 Speaker 1: any of those films since, so we watched them together, 192 00:12:58,316 --> 00:13:02,916 Speaker 1: starting with an early series called Masters Without Masks. It 193 00:13:02,996 --> 00:13:05,356 Speaker 1: was a lot more over the top than Sir Hay remembered. 194 00:13:05,596 --> 00:13:08,396 Speaker 1: It begins with a pretty hair raising video montage of 195 00:13:08,476 --> 00:13:11,876 Speaker 1: scenes from all over the US, set over blaring James 196 00:13:11,876 --> 00:13:16,876 Speaker 1: Bond music, Americans as decadent capitalists with really nice cars 197 00:13:16,916 --> 00:13:28,076 Speaker 1: and exciting clothes. Yeah, it's unbelievable, it's unbelievable. Oh my gosh. 198 00:13:28,676 --> 00:13:32,116 Speaker 1: So it's nineteen seventy, he's just starting and it's just 199 00:13:32,236 --> 00:13:37,756 Speaker 1: the deepest Cold War and the most I don't know, 200 00:13:37,996 --> 00:13:41,996 Speaker 1: I almost don't believe my eyes. So we're looking at 201 00:13:41,996 --> 00:13:47,876 Speaker 1: it is such an like a massively captivating assembly of stereotypes. 202 00:13:47,956 --> 00:13:50,276 Speaker 1: Like it's just like sex and money and it's a mess. 203 00:13:50,476 --> 00:13:55,436 Speaker 1: They're crazy over there. Yes, yes, yes, absolutely absolutely, and 204 00:13:55,436 --> 00:13:59,316 Speaker 1: and of course it's runsome money. It's controlled by money, 205 00:13:59,916 --> 00:14:04,076 Speaker 1: and it's it's it's awful, it's decadent, Sarah. They'll explain 206 00:14:04,156 --> 00:14:06,796 Speaker 1: to me. The the Zorn expose is look one way, 207 00:14:07,076 --> 00:14:10,996 Speaker 1: but people in the Soviet Union south differently. You go 208 00:14:11,196 --> 00:14:13,996 Speaker 1: for something that actually you want to see it, okay, 209 00:14:14,036 --> 00:14:16,636 Speaker 1: And there are people dancing right Okay, this is interesting. 210 00:14:16,716 --> 00:14:19,996 Speaker 1: This is school, okay, and there is Cassine. Ah, well, 211 00:14:20,076 --> 00:14:23,876 Speaker 1: we don't have casina. It would be interesting to see 212 00:14:24,476 --> 00:14:27,356 Speaker 1: what does care You know, like it's an indictment of 213 00:14:27,396 --> 00:14:31,356 Speaker 1: this excess, but it's also like, ooh, yes, yes, yes, 214 00:14:33,836 --> 00:14:36,916 Speaker 1: I would like to see that. That's Sarah and I 215 00:14:36,956 --> 00:14:39,276 Speaker 1: both ended up being historians. Kind of knocks me out. 216 00:14:40,596 --> 00:14:45,436 Speaker 1: The parallelism and also the inversion. Teenage sarahy in Ukraine 217 00:14:45,516 --> 00:14:49,236 Speaker 1: watching Zorin and becoming fascinated by the United States. Me 218 00:14:49,436 --> 00:14:52,916 Speaker 1: in the United States making my magazine about Russia. I 219 00:14:52,996 --> 00:14:58,436 Speaker 1: had magic markers. The USSR had television. Ask Julia Barton 220 00:14:58,636 --> 00:15:02,516 Speaker 1: how Soviet TV worked. Keep in mind, the Soviet Union 221 00:15:02,596 --> 00:15:05,476 Speaker 1: is the biggest country in the world by far. It 222 00:15:05,516 --> 00:15:08,676 Speaker 1: has eleven time zones, and like, what can link all 223 00:15:08,676 --> 00:15:12,396 Speaker 1: those people together? It's television. So everything that gets made 224 00:15:12,636 --> 00:15:17,236 Speaker 1: something special like this is broadcast to millions of people 225 00:15:17,436 --> 00:15:20,756 Speaker 1: over and over and over again. And the thing that 226 00:15:20,916 --> 00:15:24,556 Speaker 1: Soviets are the most curious about and really want to 227 00:15:24,596 --> 00:15:28,316 Speaker 1: see is news from abroad, much more so than Americans 228 00:15:28,316 --> 00:15:35,276 Speaker 1: ever have been. Americans and Soviets we were looking at 229 00:15:35,276 --> 00:15:39,556 Speaker 1: one another, peering through holes in the iron curtain. Zorn 230 00:15:39,636 --> 00:15:42,436 Speaker 1: was looking through that curtain too, but he wasn't exactly 231 00:15:42,436 --> 00:15:46,116 Speaker 1: looking for the truth about the United States. Destant was 232 00:15:46,116 --> 00:15:48,716 Speaker 1: a nice idea, but there was still a war on 233 00:15:49,156 --> 00:15:52,356 Speaker 1: and even though his films appeared softer now, Zorn was 234 00:15:52,396 --> 00:15:57,716 Speaker 1: looking for evidence of America's corruption, It's inner evil, evidence 235 00:15:58,236 --> 00:16:12,396 Speaker 1: of its darkest secrets. Cold War Soviet propagandists wanted to 236 00:16:12,516 --> 00:16:18,316 Speaker 1: unmask America. One way they did that was to focus 237 00:16:18,396 --> 00:16:21,996 Speaker 1: on the brutality of Jim Crow. That led to an 238 00:16:22,036 --> 00:16:25,596 Speaker 1: American response. In nineteen fifty two, the US Attorney General 239 00:16:25,676 --> 00:16:28,996 Speaker 1: argued for an end segregation on the ground that did 240 00:16:28,996 --> 00:16:34,196 Speaker 1: a crippled American foreign policy. He wrote, racial discrimination furnishes 241 00:16:34,236 --> 00:16:37,836 Speaker 1: grist for the communist propaganda mills, and it raises doubts, 242 00:16:37,996 --> 00:16:40,956 Speaker 1: even among friendly nations as to the intensity of our 243 00:16:40,996 --> 00:16:45,796 Speaker 1: devotion to the democratic faith. Exposing American hypocrisy worked really 244 00:16:45,796 --> 00:16:48,396 Speaker 1: well for Soviets, depicting the US as the land of 245 00:16:48,436 --> 00:16:52,916 Speaker 1: the free, but really the home of the oppressed. But 246 00:16:53,036 --> 00:16:57,956 Speaker 1: there's also, you know, the belief that communism is at 247 00:16:57,956 --> 00:17:01,916 Speaker 1: this vanguard of social change, and so they're looking for 248 00:17:01,956 --> 00:17:07,276 Speaker 1: signs that this vanguard is advancing in places like the 249 00:17:07,356 --> 00:17:11,916 Speaker 1: United States. It's about um, you know, capitalism falling apart, 250 00:17:11,996 --> 00:17:16,476 Speaker 1: falling on its own sword. Usually Alabama, which you know, 251 00:17:16,636 --> 00:17:23,836 Speaker 1: WILLISAO one in American Autumn. Zorn goes to an office 252 00:17:23,836 --> 00:17:28,196 Speaker 1: building to visit the National Socialist White People's Party, American 253 00:17:28,236 --> 00:17:32,836 Speaker 1: neo Nazis. Soren's smoking a cigarette, He's super casual. He 254 00:17:32,956 --> 00:17:36,676 Speaker 1: rings the doorbell and then amazingly, these Nazis let the 255 00:17:36,676 --> 00:17:44,516 Speaker 1: Soviet film crew inside party of our party. Who can 256 00:17:44,596 --> 00:17:50,636 Speaker 1: be summed up two words, white target. We believe that city. 257 00:17:53,956 --> 00:17:56,636 Speaker 1: Zarren's argument in this film is that there's a direct 258 00:17:56,756 --> 00:18:00,756 Speaker 1: connection between neo Nazis and the US government, a direct 259 00:18:00,796 --> 00:18:05,156 Speaker 1: connection between neo Nazis and the two major American political parties. 260 00:18:05,916 --> 00:18:08,596 Speaker 1: Soren's documentary takes us from the offices of the White 261 00:18:08,596 --> 00:18:12,596 Speaker 1: People's Play to a rally for George Wallace, the segregationist 262 00:18:12,676 --> 00:18:15,596 Speaker 1: one time governor of Alabama who ran for president in 263 00:18:15,676 --> 00:18:19,116 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight and again in nineteen seventy two. I 264 00:18:19,156 --> 00:18:20,916 Speaker 1: had my friends are he walked me through this point 265 00:18:20,956 --> 00:18:26,156 Speaker 1: in film. Okay, so basically he goes, he interviews this 266 00:18:26,276 --> 00:18:32,076 Speaker 1: white supremacist and then he says that in Washington, they 267 00:18:32,156 --> 00:18:35,756 Speaker 1: told us, okay, how many of those crazies are out there? 268 00:18:35,836 --> 00:18:38,676 Speaker 1: And he says, well, there is a lot of them. 269 00:18:38,916 --> 00:18:41,356 Speaker 1: Wallace is one of their leaders, and he got ten 270 00:18:41,396 --> 00:18:46,756 Speaker 1: million goals, said the last elections. So the connection between 271 00:18:46,836 --> 00:18:54,396 Speaker 1: between white supremacists and mainstream American politics. After going to 272 00:18:54,396 --> 00:18:57,716 Speaker 1: the George Wallace rally, he's off to Alabama's cotton fields 273 00:18:57,756 --> 00:19:01,196 Speaker 1: and shanties with poor black families. Soran says, it's one 274 00:19:01,196 --> 00:19:08,356 Speaker 1: of the centers of American racism. Stems at agenas of Shiprison. 275 00:19:08,436 --> 00:19:13,196 Speaker 1: If you pressing a cross burning footage of a cross 276 00:19:13,236 --> 00:19:16,916 Speaker 1: burning in the clan. He was very proud of taking 277 00:19:16,916 --> 00:19:21,556 Speaker 1: an interview from from I don't know the leader or 278 00:19:21,556 --> 00:19:24,756 Speaker 1: one of the leaders of Kuklux Klan. Yeah, I think 279 00:19:24,796 --> 00:19:28,636 Speaker 1: it's Robert Shelton, okay, right, because he said that that 280 00:19:28,756 --> 00:19:33,556 Speaker 1: footage was actually bought by a lot of TV companies 281 00:19:33,716 --> 00:19:36,116 Speaker 1: all over the world, and he was the one who 282 00:19:36,156 --> 00:19:41,836 Speaker 1: got it. The footage was such a scoop that Zorn 283 00:19:41,916 --> 00:19:43,996 Speaker 1: sold it to foreign broadcasters to get it out in 284 00:19:43,996 --> 00:19:47,116 Speaker 1: front of even more of yours. In this incredible scene, 285 00:19:47,276 --> 00:19:50,036 Speaker 1: Zorn sits down with an Imperial Wizard of the KKK 286 00:19:50,716 --> 00:19:53,676 Speaker 1: in a little fancy parlor with a framed picture of 287 00:19:53,756 --> 00:19:57,236 Speaker 1: Hitler on the wall behind them. You don't often get 288 00:19:57,236 --> 00:19:59,916 Speaker 1: to meet a grand wizard, Zorn says in voice over. 289 00:20:00,316 --> 00:20:03,276 Speaker 1: And yet here we are talking with mister Shelton. Can 290 00:20:03,396 --> 00:20:11,756 Speaker 1: you tell me? Can you tell me about basically the 291 00:20:11,876 --> 00:20:24,316 Speaker 1: organization advocates Christianity. Here in the Imperial Wizard's parlor, Zorin 292 00:20:24,436 --> 00:20:27,676 Speaker 1: found what he was looking for, the evil secret, the 293 00:20:27,836 --> 00:20:32,036 Speaker 1: ugly face behind the mask of American democracy, white supremacy. 294 00:20:33,236 --> 00:20:36,436 Speaker 1: But actually Zorin wasn't all that interested in social issues 295 00:20:36,636 --> 00:20:39,436 Speaker 1: or in how politics worked in the United States. He 296 00:20:39,516 --> 00:20:43,556 Speaker 1: was interested in stories that reduced power struggles to moral struggles, 297 00:20:43,716 --> 00:20:48,356 Speaker 1: struggles between good and evil. For his biggest story, Zorn 298 00:20:48,436 --> 00:20:52,756 Speaker 1: needed a different supervillain, not a clansman, but a capitalist. 299 00:20:53,316 --> 00:20:58,956 Speaker 1: A capitalist too, Zorin would claim, had conspired to kill Kennedy. 300 00:21:00,276 --> 00:21:04,276 Speaker 1: Valentine Zorin, one of their respected as far as the 301 00:21:04,316 --> 00:21:08,476 Speaker 1: Soviet goes mouthpieces of the Kremlin, is trying to counter 302 00:21:08,636 --> 00:21:12,476 Speaker 1: charges on Moscow Radio that President Kennedy was a victim 303 00:21:12,516 --> 00:21:17,036 Speaker 1: of a leftist fanatic. That's CBS newsman Walter Cronkite. After 304 00:21:17,076 --> 00:21:22,116 Speaker 1: the Kennedy assassination, Cronkite's reporting on Valentine Zorn's claim that 305 00:21:22,196 --> 00:21:24,356 Speaker 1: Kennedy could not have been killed in Dallas by Lee 306 00:21:24,436 --> 00:21:29,036 Speaker 1: Harvey Oswald acting alone or God forbid, on orders from Moscow. 307 00:21:29,916 --> 00:21:32,836 Speaker 1: He has said, those who know how the security of 308 00:21:32,876 --> 00:21:36,356 Speaker 1: President Kennedy is organized know that it is not possible 309 00:21:36,436 --> 00:21:40,956 Speaker 1: for a fanatic to commit such an assassination. Valentine Zorin says, 310 00:21:41,316 --> 00:21:46,156 Speaker 1: and this terribly inflammatory statement by one of the king 311 00:21:46,196 --> 00:21:50,236 Speaker 1: fins of Soviet propaganda in Moscow. He went on to say, quote, 312 00:21:50,476 --> 00:21:53,076 Speaker 1: it is not accidental that it took place in the 313 00:21:53,116 --> 00:21:56,196 Speaker 1: Southern States, which are well known as a stronghold of 314 00:21:56,316 --> 00:22:02,196 Speaker 1: racist and other fascist scum. Lee Harvey Oswald looked to 315 00:22:02,276 --> 00:22:05,556 Speaker 1: be a leftist fanatic. He'd taught himself Russian and in 316 00:22:05,636 --> 00:22:09,316 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty nine had traveled to the Soviet Union. But 317 00:22:09,436 --> 00:22:12,076 Speaker 1: Zorn claimed that Kennedy had been killed not by a 318 00:22:12,116 --> 00:22:17,676 Speaker 1: loane leftist but by a conservative conspiracy, a capitalist conspiracy. 319 00:22:18,636 --> 00:22:21,676 Speaker 1: We repeat, in case anybody could mistake the import of 320 00:22:21,716 --> 00:22:26,196 Speaker 1: these words, that this is Soviet propaganda broadcast by Moscow 321 00:22:26,276 --> 00:22:32,196 Speaker 1: radio commentator Valentine Zorn. This was Soviet propaganda, sure, but 322 00:22:32,276 --> 00:22:34,956 Speaker 1: of course a whole lot of Americans also suspected that 323 00:22:34,996 --> 00:22:38,676 Speaker 1: Oswald hadn't acted alone. Even after the government published its 324 00:22:38,676 --> 00:22:43,116 Speaker 1: official report, American conspiracy theorists poured over the evidence, especially 325 00:22:43,116 --> 00:22:46,956 Speaker 1: footage of the assassination. At the same time, agencies like 326 00:22:46,996 --> 00:22:50,716 Speaker 1: the KGB only added fuel to that fire. Zorn meant 327 00:22:50,756 --> 00:22:54,116 Speaker 1: to go further than spreading rumors he would conduct an investigation. 328 00:22:54,516 --> 00:22:57,116 Speaker 1: He went to search for the answers to Kennedy's assassination 329 00:22:57,316 --> 00:23:00,996 Speaker 1: in the place where it happened, Dallas, Texas, and there 330 00:23:01,396 --> 00:23:05,956 Speaker 1: Zorn got obsessed with a Texas oil tycoon named H. L. Hunt. 331 00:23:06,796 --> 00:23:09,076 Speaker 1: Zorin talks a lot about Hunt in a film called 332 00:23:09,116 --> 00:23:13,036 Speaker 1: called The Puzzles of Dallas. H L. Hunt's mansion fronts 333 00:23:13,116 --> 00:23:15,916 Speaker 1: a lake in Dallas, and as it turns out, our 334 00:23:16,036 --> 00:23:19,196 Speaker 1: editor Julia Barton, grew up just a few blocks away 335 00:23:19,356 --> 00:23:22,556 Speaker 1: in the less glamorous back end of the neighborhood. Julie 336 00:23:22,556 --> 00:23:25,596 Speaker 1: and I watched The Puzzles of Dallas together. I was 337 00:23:25,636 --> 00:23:28,556 Speaker 1: a kid there, and a lot of the shots are 338 00:23:28,636 --> 00:23:31,236 Speaker 1: like kid angle shots, like they're in the back of 339 00:23:31,236 --> 00:23:34,356 Speaker 1: a car that's just like endlessly driving. They even drive 340 00:23:34,436 --> 00:23:37,156 Speaker 1: past the freeway exit that we always got off at 341 00:23:37,716 --> 00:23:40,156 Speaker 1: on I thirty, you know, to go home. So I 342 00:23:40,236 --> 00:23:42,276 Speaker 1: was like when I saw that sign, I was like, 343 00:23:42,276 --> 00:23:44,516 Speaker 1: that's my exit, you know, like get off, go to 344 00:23:44,596 --> 00:23:47,436 Speaker 1: my house. Julie didn't know about hl Hunt when she 345 00:23:47,516 --> 00:23:50,756 Speaker 1: was a kid, but later on she too got fascinated. 346 00:23:51,276 --> 00:23:54,956 Speaker 1: You know. Hunt was a gambler. He won his oil 347 00:23:55,116 --> 00:24:02,996 Speaker 1: rights through through a poker game. He was awesome Jeeves Bond, Yes, 348 00:24:03,156 --> 00:24:07,716 Speaker 1: and he was coming. And he was an ardent, outspoken 349 00:24:07,756 --> 00:24:11,996 Speaker 1: anti communist who at his own you know, propaganda outfit, 350 00:24:12,116 --> 00:24:17,596 Speaker 1: which he financed through a money losing grocery operation HLH Foods. 351 00:24:17,956 --> 00:24:21,276 Speaker 1: And he lived in a in a mansion that looked 352 00:24:21,276 --> 00:24:25,396 Speaker 1: like a plantation, and he raised the flag every morning 353 00:24:25,396 --> 00:24:27,596 Speaker 1: with his wife. And it's just like a he had 354 00:24:27,596 --> 00:24:33,996 Speaker 1: a naked cat. Hl Hunt is basically a Bond villain 355 00:24:34,316 --> 00:24:38,076 Speaker 1: or better doctor Evil. He wasn't just an oil tycoon. 356 00:24:38,356 --> 00:24:41,876 Speaker 1: He was an American propagandist. He was really the anti 357 00:24:41,996 --> 00:24:49,836 Speaker 1: zorin mister Hunt. It's often been said that that you 358 00:24:49,956 --> 00:24:53,996 Speaker 1: have what is called a conspiratorial view of history. In 359 00:24:53,996 --> 00:24:58,516 Speaker 1: other words, if you see reds under every couch and 360 00:24:58,716 --> 00:25:01,156 Speaker 1: cover and where they're not really there, do you think 361 00:25:01,196 --> 00:25:05,276 Speaker 1: you're over alarmed about the way things are going. However 362 00:25:05,356 --> 00:25:08,476 Speaker 1: alarmed I am. I don't think I'm alarmed enough. I'm 363 00:25:08,756 --> 00:25:12,516 Speaker 1: playing the United States. The Communist Party today is a 364 00:25:12,596 --> 00:25:16,476 Speaker 1: weak read. Indeed, I don't think that Jedger Hoover would 365 00:25:16,516 --> 00:25:20,876 Speaker 1: agree with your conclusion. Hunt financed his own radio show, Lifeline. 366 00:25:21,076 --> 00:25:27,076 Speaker 1: He's very proto Rush Limbaugh, where his announcers spouted anti communism. 367 00:25:27,196 --> 00:25:30,676 Speaker 1: If the vast majority of Americans suddenly were to cease 368 00:25:30,756 --> 00:25:34,796 Speaker 1: believing in the individual dignity of man, we would all 369 00:25:34,916 --> 00:25:38,676 Speaker 1: begin looking to the government for everything, and freedom would 370 00:25:38,676 --> 00:25:42,956 Speaker 1: be lost to a paternalistic statism. Hunt's radio show attack 371 00:25:43,036 --> 00:25:46,916 Speaker 1: not only statism and communism, but also socialism and well 372 00:25:47,076 --> 00:25:51,436 Speaker 1: just plain taxation, whether we like it or not. This 373 00:25:51,756 --> 00:25:54,916 Speaker 1: is an extreme time in the history of our nation. 374 00:25:55,436 --> 00:25:59,476 Speaker 1: In the communist schedule, the time is now, the target 375 00:25:59,756 --> 00:26:03,636 Speaker 1: is you. Ah Hunt was the anti Zorin he had 376 00:26:03,676 --> 00:26:06,796 Speaker 1: that radio show, wrote a column called Hunt for Truth, 377 00:26:07,596 --> 00:26:11,396 Speaker 1: and he had a publishing outfit called Facts Forum. But 378 00:26:11,516 --> 00:26:14,836 Speaker 1: Zorn did Hunt one better. He peddled a conspiracy theory 379 00:26:14,836 --> 00:26:17,596 Speaker 1: in which Hunt and the Texas Oil Block, led by 380 00:26:17,676 --> 00:26:20,956 Speaker 1: Vice President Lyndon Johnson. Remember Johnson was also from Texas, 381 00:26:21,276 --> 00:26:23,836 Speaker 1: had wanted Kennedy dead and had gone so far as 382 00:26:23,876 --> 00:26:26,996 Speaker 1: to arrange for Kennedy to be killed because Kennedy was 383 00:26:27,036 --> 00:26:38,956 Speaker 1: about to regulate the oil industry. Kennedy. Because of Zorn, 384 00:26:39,236 --> 00:26:41,796 Speaker 1: Hunt was possibly better known in the USSR then in 385 00:26:41,836 --> 00:26:45,116 Speaker 1: the United States. I hadn't known much about him, but 386 00:26:45,436 --> 00:26:49,716 Speaker 1: Hunt still seemed weirdly familiar to me from an old movie. 387 00:26:50,196 --> 00:26:52,556 Speaker 1: Sure this is because everything reminds me of an old movie, 388 00:26:52,836 --> 00:26:55,996 Speaker 1: but apparently everything reminded Zorn of an old movie too. 389 00:26:56,476 --> 00:27:00,196 Speaker 1: Soviet propaganda is laced through with plots straight out of Hollywood, 390 00:27:00,796 --> 00:27:04,316 Speaker 1: and so are most modern conspiracies, including those about fake 391 00:27:04,396 --> 00:27:09,516 Speaker 1: pandemics and stolen elections. Every conspiracy theory feels like a 392 00:27:09,556 --> 00:27:12,476 Speaker 1: remake of an old movie, because for something to work 393 00:27:12,476 --> 00:27:22,476 Speaker 1: as a conspiracy, it has to work as a story. Specifically, 394 00:27:22,636 --> 00:27:24,756 Speaker 1: hl Hunt reminded me of a character from one of 395 00:27:24,796 --> 00:27:29,196 Speaker 1: my favorite Cold War thrillers, Billion Dollar Brain, from nineteen 396 00:27:29,316 --> 00:27:33,036 Speaker 1: sixty seven. If you haven't seen it, one easy way 397 00:27:33,036 --> 00:27:35,156 Speaker 1: to picture it is to know that it inspired the 398 00:27:35,196 --> 00:27:39,756 Speaker 1: Austin Powers movies. It's that campy. My love for Billion 399 00:27:39,756 --> 00:27:42,636 Speaker 1: Dollar Brain has nothing to do with Valentine Zorn and 400 00:27:42,716 --> 00:27:44,756 Speaker 1: a whole lot to do with Michael Caine, who plays 401 00:27:44,756 --> 00:27:47,916 Speaker 1: a sort of lazy, half asked spy working his way 402 00:27:47,956 --> 00:27:51,156 Speaker 1: into the center of a vast conspiracy run by a 403 00:27:51,276 --> 00:27:56,596 Speaker 1: wealthy oil tycoon who lives in Texas. He's named General Midwinter. Boy. 404 00:27:56,676 --> 00:27:59,876 Speaker 1: I tell you and I know the Texas is the 405 00:27:59,916 --> 00:28:03,516 Speaker 1: only truly hopes a man this world. General Midwinter is 406 00:28:04,076 --> 00:28:06,996 Speaker 1: hl Hunt. This isn't just me in my overdeveloped sense 407 00:28:06,996 --> 00:28:11,076 Speaker 1: of coincidence. The writer act based the character on Hunt. 408 00:28:11,476 --> 00:28:14,756 Speaker 1: Hunt Ran the Facts form. The fictional Midwinter runs a 409 00:28:14,796 --> 00:28:19,516 Speaker 1: propaganda outfit called Facts for Freedom. Midwinter also is prone 410 00:28:19,516 --> 00:28:22,596 Speaker 1: to see conspiracies everywhere, maybe because he's up to some 411 00:28:22,636 --> 00:28:27,596 Speaker 1: pretty conspiratorial hijienks himself. I'm leaving a flusha a world 412 00:28:27,636 --> 00:28:30,156 Speaker 1: of shape for freedom. You don't understand the kind of 413 00:28:30,156 --> 00:28:32,516 Speaker 1: love I have for this great country of ours. Love 414 00:28:32,636 --> 00:28:35,716 Speaker 1: not built that way, my way anymore. I love my 415 00:28:35,796 --> 00:28:37,796 Speaker 1: count baby. I might dreamy to make the thing I 416 00:28:37,836 --> 00:28:44,836 Speaker 1: love strong. Do you understand me? Yes? Strong? Strong, strong strong. 417 00:28:46,476 --> 00:28:49,556 Speaker 1: It's all here in Billion Dollar Brain, produced by the 418 00:28:49,596 --> 00:28:52,196 Speaker 1: same man who made the James Bond films, films that 419 00:28:52,316 --> 00:28:55,916 Speaker 1: Zorn constantly ripped off for his own documentaries. I'm always 420 00:28:55,916 --> 00:28:58,356 Speaker 1: struck by how in the late sixties and early seventies 421 00:28:58,596 --> 00:29:02,436 Speaker 1: and everything from spy thrillers to Soviet propaganda, everyone has 422 00:29:02,436 --> 00:29:05,916 Speaker 1: an ulterior motive and shady supervillains hold the fate of 423 00:29:05,916 --> 00:29:10,356 Speaker 1: the world in their hands. Midwinter Hunt, Julie and I 424 00:29:10,396 --> 00:29:17,076 Speaker 1: were both amazed by this Cold War central casting. But 425 00:29:17,236 --> 00:29:20,116 Speaker 1: there's something about Hunt that must have lent itself to 426 00:29:21,396 --> 00:29:23,756 Speaker 1: I guess you know the kind of the comic book 427 00:29:23,796 --> 00:29:26,596 Speaker 1: character treatment, right, because he was I mean, just as 428 00:29:26,636 --> 00:29:28,956 Speaker 1: you say listing off. He lived in a house that 429 00:29:29,036 --> 00:29:31,996 Speaker 1: was designed after Mount Vernon, so it was a southern plantation, 430 00:29:32,596 --> 00:29:36,076 Speaker 1: like the guy is a parody of a certain sort 431 00:29:36,116 --> 00:29:40,716 Speaker 1: of American magnet with the ten gallon hat and the 432 00:29:40,796 --> 00:29:45,236 Speaker 1: anti communist brochures. Yeah, and Soviet TV. I mean they 433 00:29:45,276 --> 00:29:48,956 Speaker 1: loved all these guys, Howard Hughes, you know, all of 434 00:29:48,996 --> 00:29:53,156 Speaker 1: these any any eccentric capitalists who's over the top is 435 00:29:54,036 --> 00:29:57,716 Speaker 1: I mean, they're just built for the caricature that worked 436 00:29:57,756 --> 00:30:03,236 Speaker 1: really well with Soviet propaganda. Midwinter was fun. He was 437 00:30:03,276 --> 00:30:07,396 Speaker 1: a fantastic supervillain. When Billion Dollar Brain came out, though 438 00:30:07,476 --> 00:30:10,956 Speaker 1: critics accused it of being anti American because by indicting 439 00:30:10,996 --> 00:30:14,876 Speaker 1: Midwinter for being an oil tycoon like Hunt, it played 440 00:30:14,996 --> 00:30:20,676 Speaker 1: right into Soviet propaganda. Especially Zorin's His specialty was state monopoly. 441 00:30:20,876 --> 00:30:24,476 Speaker 1: So there was this kind of Leninist worldview that the 442 00:30:24,636 --> 00:30:29,276 Speaker 1: United States was not controlled or did not work according 443 00:30:29,276 --> 00:30:31,596 Speaker 1: to the structures that it claimed to work. It didn't. 444 00:30:31,876 --> 00:30:34,396 Speaker 1: It didn't matter about the separation of powers, it didn't 445 00:30:34,396 --> 00:30:38,196 Speaker 1: matter about institutions like Congress and the White House and 446 00:30:38,236 --> 00:30:43,956 Speaker 1: the courts. That the real power centers in America were 447 00:30:44,516 --> 00:30:48,996 Speaker 1: state monopolies were control of resources. So you had the 448 00:30:49,036 --> 00:30:52,916 Speaker 1: steel monopoly groups, you had the oil monopoly groups, this 449 00:30:53,036 --> 00:30:56,516 Speaker 1: kind of thing under this sort of like rubric of 450 00:30:56,596 --> 00:31:00,276 Speaker 1: how things work in the United States, democratic elections are 451 00:31:00,316 --> 00:31:08,916 Speaker 1: a joke and we're just all chumps. So in American 452 00:31:08,916 --> 00:31:12,156 Speaker 1: politics today there are lots of conspiracy theorists on the 453 00:31:12,236 --> 00:31:16,276 Speaker 1: left and especially on the right. All of them require 454 00:31:16,396 --> 00:31:19,796 Speaker 1: a lot of cynicism about America, exactly the kind of 455 00:31:19,796 --> 00:31:25,316 Speaker 1: cynicism Soviet propagandists loved, and Russian propagandists still love. Zorin. 456 00:31:25,356 --> 00:31:27,636 Speaker 1: Though he didn't have to choose between left and right 457 00:31:27,716 --> 00:31:35,276 Speaker 1: conspiracy theorists, he just advanced both of them, Samuel, even 458 00:31:35,276 --> 00:31:45,476 Speaker 1: the abolition colleges run Dallas Kant sam Beasts. In the 459 00:31:45,476 --> 00:31:48,156 Speaker 1: film The Puzzles of Dallas, Zorin talks a lot about 460 00:31:48,196 --> 00:31:51,276 Speaker 1: how big everything is, biggest airport in the world and 461 00:31:51,396 --> 00:31:54,836 Speaker 1: best rodeo, and then he talks about how awful everything is, 462 00:31:54,996 --> 00:31:58,516 Speaker 1: the biggest crimes, the highest rate of suicide. Meanwhile, there 463 00:31:58,556 --> 00:32:01,876 Speaker 1: are puppet masters like hl Hunt lurking in their mansions. 464 00:32:02,276 --> 00:32:05,236 Speaker 1: But all the films in Zorin's nineteen seventies series work 465 00:32:05,316 --> 00:32:08,156 Speaker 1: this way. You see incredible footage of these big cities, 466 00:32:08,396 --> 00:32:11,756 Speaker 1: while Zorin rates explaining that capitalism brings all sorts of 467 00:32:11,796 --> 00:32:15,036 Speaker 1: glitz and goods to the rich and unbearable misery to 468 00:32:15,076 --> 00:32:19,076 Speaker 1: the poor. Julia, though, found it strangely moving watching our 469 00:32:19,156 --> 00:32:23,316 Speaker 1: hometown Dallas. But there's this other element to it, which 470 00:32:23,396 --> 00:32:26,836 Speaker 1: is true that he's a guest, and he's a stranger 471 00:32:26,876 --> 00:32:29,516 Speaker 1: in a strange land, and he's trying to explain it, 472 00:32:29,956 --> 00:32:33,756 Speaker 1: and it's impenetrable in some ways, you know, And I 473 00:32:34,116 --> 00:32:37,076 Speaker 1: just felt like, you know, that's actually true of a 474 00:32:37,076 --> 00:32:40,556 Speaker 1: lot of us. That we often in America especially, we 475 00:32:40,596 --> 00:32:42,756 Speaker 1: move around a lot, We go to places where we've 476 00:32:42,756 --> 00:32:46,116 Speaker 1: never been before. We think we know a thing, it's familiar, 477 00:32:46,156 --> 00:32:49,076 Speaker 1: and there's like McDonald's and like gas stations, and then 478 00:32:49,116 --> 00:32:52,636 Speaker 1: we start talking to people we feel foreign and that 479 00:32:52,836 --> 00:32:58,356 Speaker 1: this feeling of being an uncomfortable guest is kind of 480 00:32:58,396 --> 00:33:05,316 Speaker 1: everywhere now. Zorn's film about where I grew up in 481 00:33:05,316 --> 00:33:10,556 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies, it's called Boston contrasts it with dazzling footage, 482 00:33:10,716 --> 00:33:14,396 Speaker 1: bird's eye footage, a flyover tour of the city, the Harbor, 483 00:33:14,396 --> 00:33:17,796 Speaker 1: the Financial District, the Charles River, Beacon Hill, Stero drive, 484 00:33:18,396 --> 00:33:21,316 Speaker 1: all over music ripped off from Paul McCartney's band Wings. 485 00:33:22,516 --> 00:33:25,476 Speaker 1: This too, is just more James Bond because that song 486 00:33:25,636 --> 00:33:32,916 Speaker 1: was the theme song for Live and Let Die. I 487 00:33:32,996 --> 00:33:37,716 Speaker 1: had a similar response to watching the Boston Contrast film, 488 00:33:37,796 --> 00:33:42,196 Speaker 1: a lot of which were shot in seventy four, which 489 00:33:42,196 --> 00:33:46,076 Speaker 1: are the Boston bussing riots, right when white families in 490 00:33:46,116 --> 00:33:49,356 Speaker 1: Boston were you blocking buses that were bringing black children 491 00:33:49,436 --> 00:33:52,556 Speaker 1: to their neighborhoods. It's brutal, horrible moment in the history 492 00:33:52,556 --> 00:33:55,596 Speaker 1: of Boston. But then there's also all this footage of 493 00:33:55,636 --> 00:33:58,716 Speaker 1: the tea party ship, because nineteen seventy three was the 494 00:33:58,756 --> 00:34:00,836 Speaker 1: two hundredth anniversary of the Boston Tea Party, and this 495 00:34:01,356 --> 00:34:05,556 Speaker 1: goofy ship was brought over across the Atlantic and became 496 00:34:05,596 --> 00:34:11,916 Speaker 1: a museum. Julie and I had the same unsettling reaction 497 00:34:11,996 --> 00:34:15,876 Speaker 1: to watching Zorn visiting the America of our nineteen seventies childhoods. 498 00:34:16,516 --> 00:34:20,716 Speaker 1: It was weirdly comforting, even when he was pointing out horrible, 499 00:34:20,916 --> 00:34:24,716 Speaker 1: uncomfortable truths like the deep and violent racism of Boston. 500 00:34:26,116 --> 00:34:28,276 Speaker 1: I came to think that his weird appeal to us 501 00:34:29,156 --> 00:34:32,116 Speaker 1: was because he was a foreign reporter, a stranger in 502 00:34:32,116 --> 00:34:36,076 Speaker 1: a strange land, instead of the way I sometimes felt 503 00:34:36,116 --> 00:34:52,436 Speaker 1: in Trump's America, a stranger in my own country. When 504 00:34:52,476 --> 00:34:54,636 Speaker 1: I pointed in Moscow, I was not a word that 505 00:34:54,676 --> 00:34:57,036 Speaker 1: I was expected. There was a many procession of two 506 00:34:57,036 --> 00:35:00,836 Speaker 1: black automobiles awaiting my arrival. Two dark haired men in 507 00:35:00,956 --> 00:35:04,116 Speaker 1: black three piece suits appeared from the cards and walked 508 00:35:04,116 --> 00:35:07,556 Speaker 1: towards me. That's twelve year old me or a young 509 00:35:07,636 --> 00:35:11,436 Speaker 1: friend of mine, pretending to be reading an investigative report 510 00:35:11,516 --> 00:35:14,996 Speaker 1: called Communism in Russia that I made up for my 511 00:35:15,076 --> 00:35:19,396 Speaker 1: seventh grade social studies project in nineteen seventy nine. I, 512 00:35:20,156 --> 00:35:23,276 Speaker 1: realizing they are Russian police, picked up my Loga janned 513 00:35:23,436 --> 00:35:26,756 Speaker 1: with a deep sigh, started off to meet them. With 514 00:35:26,836 --> 00:35:30,996 Speaker 1: insincere grins upon their slightly aged faces. They explained in 515 00:35:31,076 --> 00:35:34,036 Speaker 1: slightly broken English that they would guide me during my day. 516 00:35:34,876 --> 00:35:39,236 Speaker 1: My report ends with me leaving Moscow disappointed. I considering 517 00:35:39,276 --> 00:35:41,756 Speaker 1: the remains of my trip Triviual. It was the same 518 00:35:41,876 --> 00:35:45,596 Speaker 1: over and over. I loved it. Everyone told me it 519 00:35:45,716 --> 00:35:48,356 Speaker 1: sounded like some of them were brainwashed, but some of 520 00:35:48,396 --> 00:35:52,676 Speaker 1: them were sincere. A few years after I wrote that, 521 00:35:52,716 --> 00:35:55,236 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union began to open up under the new 522 00:35:55,316 --> 00:35:59,676 Speaker 1: Soviet Premier Mikhail Gorbachev, and after Gorbachev began to hold 523 00:35:59,716 --> 00:36:03,156 Speaker 1: talks with the US President Ronald Reagan, Americans and Soviets 524 00:36:03,156 --> 00:36:06,156 Speaker 1: began to look at one another a little differently. In 525 00:36:06,276 --> 00:36:16,116 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight, Valentine Zorin interviewed President yi Are in 526 00:36:16,436 --> 00:36:20,796 Speaker 1: the White House in Washington. This was just before Reagan's 527 00:36:20,836 --> 00:36:24,356 Speaker 1: first visit to the USSR. I'm looking forward to seeing 528 00:36:24,396 --> 00:36:27,476 Speaker 1: your country and well as much as possible with the 529 00:36:27,676 --> 00:36:31,796 Speaker 1: meetings that will be going on. The next year, the 530 00:36:31,836 --> 00:36:34,996 Speaker 1: Berlin Wall fell, and then in nineteen ninety one, the 531 00:36:35,036 --> 00:36:39,196 Speaker 1: Soviet Union collapsed and the Cold War ended. I was 532 00:36:39,236 --> 00:36:42,116 Speaker 1: in graduate school. Then in the nineteen nineties, you'd meet 533 00:36:42,156 --> 00:36:44,956 Speaker 1: all these Americans who were fluent in Russian training to 534 00:36:44,996 --> 00:36:51,156 Speaker 1: become Russianists, Sovietologists, Kremlinologists, and then suddenly there were no jobs. 535 00:36:51,796 --> 00:36:56,156 Speaker 1: The field of sovietology vanished, almost overnight. Instead you'd meet 536 00:36:56,196 --> 00:37:01,996 Speaker 1: those guys former Sovietologists driving taxis. Americans stopped looking at Russians, 537 00:37:02,396 --> 00:37:06,316 Speaker 1: but Russians kept on looking in Americans. I asked Sarah 538 00:37:06,356 --> 00:37:09,956 Speaker 1: he about Zorn's legacy down to today, and he talked 539 00:37:09,956 --> 00:37:13,796 Speaker 1: about how all propaganda is a cocktail, a mix of 540 00:37:13,836 --> 00:37:18,556 Speaker 1: truth and lies. Still, that the basic racity is the same, 541 00:37:18,596 --> 00:37:23,916 Speaker 1: except that it's now turned turned outward. So whatever creates confusion, 542 00:37:23,996 --> 00:37:29,036 Speaker 1: whatever creates conflict is good enough. And again, you can't 543 00:37:29,156 --> 00:37:34,236 Speaker 1: you can't just sell a cocktail which is completely untrue, 544 00:37:34,396 --> 00:37:39,356 Speaker 1: which which is completely completely fake news. It's not just 545 00:37:39,396 --> 00:37:42,876 Speaker 1: a cocktail lately, not just one drink. Instead, it's a 546 00:37:42,916 --> 00:37:46,956 Speaker 1: whole cocktail party. In the United States, Americans told the 547 00:37:46,956 --> 00:37:49,396 Speaker 1: story of the collapse of the Soviet Union in nineteen 548 00:37:49,476 --> 00:37:56,476 Speaker 1: ninety one has a story about the failure of communism 549 00:37:56,516 --> 00:37:59,156 Speaker 1: in Moscow. The Hammer and Sickle is lord for the 550 00:37:59,236 --> 00:38:06,836 Speaker 1: last time, and an era comes to an end. But 551 00:38:06,916 --> 00:38:09,276 Speaker 1: in certain quarters of Russia, in the mind, say of 552 00:38:09,276 --> 00:38:12,556 Speaker 1: someone like Vladimir Putin, the story of that collapse wasn't 553 00:38:12,556 --> 00:38:14,796 Speaker 1: a story about the end of communism. It was a 554 00:38:14,836 --> 00:38:18,876 Speaker 1: story about foreign meddling and Western interference and a failure 555 00:38:18,876 --> 00:38:22,876 Speaker 1: of the Soviet leadership to defend against it. Russians told 556 00:38:22,876 --> 00:38:25,156 Speaker 1: the story of a coup conducted by the United States 557 00:38:25,156 --> 00:38:28,876 Speaker 1: and its allies by way of misinformation campaigns and propaganda. 558 00:38:29,156 --> 00:38:33,196 Speaker 1: That's what brought down the uss Are, they said. Zorn 559 00:38:33,276 --> 00:38:36,516 Speaker 1: admired Putin, and the feeling was mutual. In two thousand 560 00:38:36,516 --> 00:38:39,236 Speaker 1: and one, Zorn sent Putin a copy of his latest book. 561 00:38:39,996 --> 00:38:42,796 Speaker 1: President Putin dictated a thank you note to Professor Zorin, 562 00:38:43,396 --> 00:38:46,196 Speaker 1: dated September twelfth, two thousand and one, the day after 563 00:38:46,236 --> 00:38:49,196 Speaker 1: the terrorist attacks on the US, and then Putin added 564 00:38:49,196 --> 00:38:52,556 Speaker 1: a handwritten PostScript. I have always followed your work with 565 00:38:52,676 --> 00:38:56,036 Speaker 1: great interest and pleasure. Almost everything has been brilliant and 566 00:38:56,036 --> 00:39:01,716 Speaker 1: shown remarkable talent. Wishing you all success. Americans, though, challenged 567 00:39:01,716 --> 00:39:06,756 Speaker 1: Putin's authority and his legitimacy, especially after parliamentary elections held 568 00:39:06,756 --> 00:39:09,916 Speaker 1: in two thousand and eleven, which involved blatant fraud. Some 569 00:39:09,996 --> 00:39:12,316 Speaker 1: of it caught on camera by Russians and shared on 570 00:39:12,356 --> 00:39:16,236 Speaker 1: social media. The US Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton 571 00:39:16,636 --> 00:39:20,316 Speaker 1: had words, we do have serious concerns about the conduct 572 00:39:20,396 --> 00:39:25,116 Speaker 1: of the election. Anti Putin protesters marched in Moscow, chanting 573 00:39:25,396 --> 00:39:29,716 Speaker 1: Putin is a thief. Putin, furious, blamed Clinton for inciting 574 00:39:29,716 --> 00:39:33,196 Speaker 1: the protests. They've been organized on Twitter and Facebook, and 575 00:39:33,236 --> 00:39:36,076 Speaker 1: so to thwart them, Putin charged one of his cronies 576 00:39:36,116 --> 00:39:39,636 Speaker 1: with taking control of social media, and that guy financed 577 00:39:39,676 --> 00:39:44,396 Speaker 1: an outfit called the Internet Research Agency. Its purpose was 578 00:39:44,436 --> 00:39:49,396 Speaker 1: to conduct misinformation campaigns within Russia to silence Putin's critics 579 00:39:49,436 --> 00:39:53,996 Speaker 1: and stop the protests. Ludmilla Savchuk first became a troll 580 00:39:54,076 --> 00:39:57,316 Speaker 1: slayer back in twenty fourteen. That's from a story about 581 00:39:57,356 --> 00:40:01,356 Speaker 1: a Russian Ludmilla Savchuk who infiltrated the Internet Research Agency. 582 00:40:01,956 --> 00:40:04,276 Speaker 1: We think of that place now as a troll factory, 583 00:40:04,356 --> 00:40:06,916 Speaker 1: but really it was an office building in Saint Petersburg. 584 00:40:07,196 --> 00:40:10,636 Speaker 1: It employed hundreds of Russians. Their job was to create 585 00:40:10,716 --> 00:40:14,396 Speaker 1: fake social media accounts and post fake stuff. Later, save 586 00:40:14,516 --> 00:40:20,676 Speaker 1: Check spoke to Charles Mains for PRIs the World. I 587 00:40:20,716 --> 00:40:23,316 Speaker 1: wanted to get them there to see how it works so, 588 00:40:23,436 --> 00:40:26,916 Speaker 1: of course, but the most important thing was to see 589 00:40:26,996 --> 00:40:30,196 Speaker 1: if there was some way to stop it. Sav Check's 590 00:40:30,236 --> 00:40:32,996 Speaker 1: reporting showed the people who worked at this Internet Research 591 00:40:33,036 --> 00:40:36,956 Speaker 1: Agency were attacking Putin's critics in Russia. Soon after, the 592 00:40:37,036 --> 00:40:40,116 Speaker 1: IRA would expand its efforts by attacking the United States, 593 00:40:40,636 --> 00:40:49,276 Speaker 1: amplifying American political divisions and discontent by posing as fake Americans. OMG, 594 00:40:49,716 --> 00:40:54,676 Speaker 1: this new anti Hillary ad is brilliant. It's fantastic. Spread 595 00:40:54,716 --> 00:40:59,716 Speaker 1: it far and wide. White boyfriend shows true colors on 596 00:40:59,796 --> 00:41:05,036 Speaker 1: his black girlfriend over Trump hashtag black Lives Matter. When 597 00:41:05,156 --> 00:41:07,756 Speaker 1: Valentine Zorin went to interview the Imperial Wizard of the 598 00:41:07,876 --> 00:41:12,076 Speaker 1: KKK in nine seventy one, he didn't invent the clan. 599 00:41:12,556 --> 00:41:16,236 Speaker 1: But at the Internet Research Agency they created fake Facebook 600 00:41:16,236 --> 00:41:21,836 Speaker 1: pages right and left, like back the Badge or Black Matters, Blacktivist, 601 00:41:21,956 --> 00:41:27,476 Speaker 1: Heart of Texas United, Muslims of America being Patriotic, Secured Boarders, 602 00:41:27,756 --> 00:41:33,036 Speaker 1: and LGBT United. Their Facebook posts were shared millions of times. 603 00:41:33,716 --> 00:41:36,916 Speaker 1: They also bought more than three thousand ads on Facebook 604 00:41:37,676 --> 00:41:40,356 Speaker 1: around the time of the twenty sixteen election. More than 605 00:41:40,396 --> 00:41:43,636 Speaker 1: half the ads purchased by the Internet Research Agency had 606 00:41:43,676 --> 00:41:47,316 Speaker 1: to do with race. A quarter were about crime and policing. 607 00:41:48,356 --> 00:41:51,236 Speaker 1: These ads weren't advancing an agenda. They took all sides. 608 00:41:51,556 --> 00:41:54,036 Speaker 1: They were just trying to get people riled up. But 609 00:41:54,156 --> 00:41:57,556 Speaker 1: Donald Trump, when he took office in twenty seventeen, defended Putin. 610 00:41:58,796 --> 00:42:01,316 Speaker 1: I say it's better to get along with Russia than not. 611 00:42:01,716 --> 00:42:03,636 Speaker 1: Will I get along with them? I have no ideas. 612 00:42:03,836 --> 00:42:08,396 Speaker 1: Putin's a killer. A lot of killers, get a lot 613 00:42:08,436 --> 00:42:12,276 Speaker 1: of killers. You think our country is so innocent? Critics 614 00:42:12,276 --> 00:42:15,516 Speaker 1: said Trump was Putin's puppet, But maybe it's more accurate 615 00:42:15,556 --> 00:42:21,236 Speaker 1: to say Trump was Zorin's vindication. A deeply, profoundly cynical 616 00:42:21,276 --> 00:42:24,516 Speaker 1: blend of money, sex, and viciousness now at the center 617 00:42:24,556 --> 00:42:28,796 Speaker 1: of American political life. Zorn died in twenty sixteen at 618 00:42:28,796 --> 00:42:31,396 Speaker 1: the age of ninety one, just a few months before 619 00:42:31,436 --> 00:42:35,236 Speaker 1: Trump was elected. Still, Trump would have made the perfect 620 00:42:35,276 --> 00:42:39,236 Speaker 1: subject for a Zorn documentary, a kind of capitalist supervillain, 621 00:42:39,596 --> 00:42:42,156 Speaker 1: the sort of person who, for his own purposes, would 622 00:42:42,196 --> 00:42:46,556 Speaker 1: incite a mob to attack peaceful protesters. I love the 623 00:42:46,596 --> 00:42:48,076 Speaker 1: old days. You know what they used to do to 624 00:42:48,156 --> 00:42:50,036 Speaker 1: guys like that when they were in a place like this. 625 00:42:50,396 --> 00:42:56,076 Speaker 1: They'd be carried out of a stretcher folks. In the 626 00:42:56,116 --> 00:42:59,636 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, Zorin needed Soviet television to make and distribute 627 00:42:59,676 --> 00:43:03,476 Speaker 1: his propaganda, But in twenty sixteen it was American companies 628 00:43:03,516 --> 00:43:07,196 Speaker 1: that provided the distribution network for all kinds of propaganda. 629 00:43:07,556 --> 00:43:09,076 Speaker 1: They made an awful lot of money off of it, 630 00:43:09,196 --> 00:43:14,556 Speaker 1: to Facebook, Twitter, Snapchat. After Trump's election, a special council 631 00:43:14,636 --> 00:43:18,676 Speaker 1: investigated allegations that Russia had meddled in the election. The 632 00:43:18,756 --> 00:43:22,836 Speaker 1: Senate Health hearings in twenty eighteen, Main Senator Susan Collins, 633 00:43:22,836 --> 00:43:27,316 Speaker 1: a Republican, questioned Jack Dorsey, the CEO of Twitter, about 634 00:43:27,316 --> 00:43:30,876 Speaker 1: the nearly four thousand Twitter accounts created by the Internet 635 00:43:30,916 --> 00:43:35,196 Speaker 1: Research Agency, accounts that, by Twitter's own estimate, reached about 636 00:43:35,196 --> 00:43:40,396 Speaker 1: a million and a half people. My question to you is, 637 00:43:40,756 --> 00:43:45,876 Speaker 1: once you have taken down accounts that are linked to Russia, 638 00:43:46,396 --> 00:43:51,116 Speaker 1: what do you do to notify the followers that they 639 00:43:51,196 --> 00:43:55,796 Speaker 1: have been following or engaged in accounts that are not 640 00:43:55,916 --> 00:43:59,476 Speaker 1: what they appear to be. We simply haven't done enough. 641 00:44:00,596 --> 00:44:02,516 Speaker 1: I listen to that exchange and I had to wonder, 642 00:44:02,836 --> 00:44:05,396 Speaker 1: how would Congress have reacted in the nineteen seventies if 643 00:44:05,396 --> 00:44:09,916 Speaker 1: American television networks were broadcasting Zorn's documentaries four hours a day. 644 00:44:10,996 --> 00:44:13,876 Speaker 1: I think they would have stopped them. But today the 645 00:44:13,916 --> 00:44:17,156 Speaker 1: trolls are still trolling, and no one's managed to stop them. 646 00:44:19,756 --> 00:44:23,276 Speaker 1: Very few Americans remember Valentine's Oran. The closest thing to 647 00:44:23,356 --> 00:44:28,636 Speaker 1: Zorin that most Americans know. That's borat Aya Shamash my name, 648 00:44:28,716 --> 00:44:33,476 Speaker 1: a borat I generalist for Kazakhstan. That's Sasha Baron Cohen 649 00:44:33,756 --> 00:44:36,836 Speaker 1: playing a reporter from the former Soviet Republic of Kazakhstan, 650 00:44:37,276 --> 00:44:41,436 Speaker 1: allegedly making Razoran style documentary film about the United States. 651 00:44:41,996 --> 00:44:46,556 Speaker 1: Although Kazakhstan and glorious country it have a problem too. 652 00:44:47,316 --> 00:44:50,916 Speaker 1: This is why Ministry of Information have decided to send 653 00:44:50,956 --> 00:44:55,356 Speaker 1: me to US and greatest country in the world to 654 00:44:55,596 --> 00:45:00,836 Speaker 1: learn a lessons for Kazakhstan. Borat provincial ignorant, fascinated by 655 00:45:00,836 --> 00:45:04,676 Speaker 1: the United States, and through sheer idiocy and clumsiness, able 656 00:45:04,676 --> 00:45:08,236 Speaker 1: to cast light into its darkest corners. Barrett is part 657 00:45:08,236 --> 00:45:11,516 Speaker 1: of the weird after life of Zorin, the long afterlife 658 00:45:11,636 --> 00:45:15,436 Speaker 1: of Soviet and Trumpian propaganda about the United States at 659 00:45:15,556 --> 00:45:21,956 Speaker 1: strange cocktail of truthtelling and bullshitting. After the end of 660 00:45:21,996 --> 00:45:24,116 Speaker 1: the Cold War and the collapse of the Soviet Union. 661 00:45:24,516 --> 00:45:27,876 Speaker 1: Zorin's Americanism was replaced with the Americanism of places like 662 00:45:27,956 --> 00:45:32,196 Speaker 1: the Internet Research Agency study Americans just enough to know 663 00:45:32,276 --> 00:45:35,116 Speaker 1: how to create fake accounts. It doesn't matter if you 664 00:45:35,196 --> 00:45:38,076 Speaker 1: successfully interfere in an election. You just need to make 665 00:45:38,116 --> 00:45:40,956 Speaker 1: Americans worried that you might be interfering in an election. 666 00:45:42,876 --> 00:45:45,476 Speaker 1: Between the first Borat film and a sequel released just 667 00:45:45,556 --> 00:45:49,596 Speaker 1: before the twenty twenty election, Boortt recapitulates that history, the 668 00:45:49,676 --> 00:45:52,556 Speaker 1: history I've been trying to reconstruct this episode and the 669 00:45:52,596 --> 00:45:55,956 Speaker 1: first film Borat is a cartoons or in put. In 670 00:45:55,996 --> 00:46:00,196 Speaker 1: the twenty twenty sequel, Borett ends up running a troll factory. 671 00:46:01,836 --> 00:46:06,716 Speaker 1: Now we are part of the global community, influencing elections 672 00:46:06,956 --> 00:46:10,956 Speaker 1: are all the world. The Cold War was a battle 673 00:46:10,996 --> 00:46:16,356 Speaker 1: of ideas, of propaganda, and of espionage, spy versus spy. Trolls. 674 00:46:16,796 --> 00:46:20,276 Speaker 1: Russian or American are the last Cold Warriors left standing, 675 00:46:20,796 --> 00:46:24,196 Speaker 1: A ragged and almost accidental army of ponds and fools 676 00:46:24,196 --> 00:46:29,436 Speaker 1: and puppets, endlessly commenting, tweeting, retweeting, making so much noise 677 00:46:29,476 --> 00:46:31,956 Speaker 1: that hardly anyone could even tell any more what it 678 00:46:31,996 --> 00:46:36,676 Speaker 1: is they're actually arguing about. They're fighting bewildered war that 679 00:46:36,796 --> 00:46:40,956 Speaker 1: should be over on a barren battlefield, trying to convince 680 00:46:40,956 --> 00:46:47,876 Speaker 1: you to trust no one and believe nothing. This season 681 00:46:47,916 --> 00:46:50,116 Speaker 1: on The Last Archive, it sometimes feels as though I'm 682 00:46:50,116 --> 00:46:56,076 Speaker 1: a genealogist, piecing together a family history, the ancestry of misinformation. 683 00:46:57,476 --> 00:47:12,116 Speaker 1: Somehow We're all the children of Zorin Now. The Last 684 00:47:12,196 --> 00:47:15,276 Speaker 1: Archive is written and hosted by me Jill Lapour. It's 685 00:47:15,316 --> 00:47:18,356 Speaker 1: produced by Sophie Crane, mckibbon and Ben Natt of Hafrey. 686 00:47:18,636 --> 00:47:21,796 Speaker 1: Our editors for this episode were Julia Barton and Karen 687 00:47:21,836 --> 00:47:27,116 Speaker 1: Shakerji Martin Gonzalez is our engineer. Fact checking by Amy Gaines. 688 00:47:27,316 --> 00:47:31,596 Speaker 1: Original music by Matthias Bossi and John Evans of Stellwagen Simfinett. 689 00:47:32,276 --> 00:47:36,396 Speaker 1: Our research assistants are Kamani Panthier and Lilly Richmond. Our 690 00:47:36,396 --> 00:47:40,316 Speaker 1: full proof players are Yoshia Mau, Raymond Blankenhorne, Matthias Bossi, 691 00:47:40,436 --> 00:47:44,356 Speaker 1: Dan Epstein, Ethan Herschenfeld, Becca A. Lewis, Andrew Parella, Robert 692 00:47:44,396 --> 00:47:47,876 Speaker 1: Riccotta and Nick Saxton. The Last Archive is a production 693 00:47:47,916 --> 00:47:51,836 Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries. At Pushkin thanks to Jacob Weisberg, Heather Fain, 694 00:47:52,036 --> 00:47:56,636 Speaker 1: John Schnarz Carl mcgliori, Christina Sullivan, Eric Sandler, Emily Rostek, 695 00:47:56,716 --> 00:48:01,556 Speaker 1: Maggie Taylor, Maya Kanig, and Daniella Lacan. Many of our 696 00:48:01,596 --> 00:48:03,796 Speaker 1: sound effects are from Harry Janette Junior and the Star 697 00:48:03,876 --> 00:48:09,476 Speaker 1: Jenette Foundation. Special thanks to Paula Bossi, Dina Fainberg, Alec Sandrad, 698 00:48:09,476 --> 00:48:13,716 Speaker 1: Justinis and Charles Mains, and particular thanks to be Korcentino 699 00:48:14,276 --> 00:48:17,156 Speaker 1: for playing a twelve year old me. If you like 700 00:48:17,276 --> 00:48:20,436 Speaker 1: the show, please remember to rate, share, and review. To 701 00:48:20,516 --> 00:48:24,836 Speaker 1: find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 702 00:48:25,236 --> 00:48:28,316 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm Jill Lapoor.