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Speaker 1: I'm Will Lucas and this is black Tech, Green Money Fans.

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Speaker 1: Morris is Lead Product Designer, Global Conversion at Netflix. He's

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Speaker 1: an entrepreneur and self taught designer leading one of the

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Speaker 1: most impactful teams inside one of the biggest tech and

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Speaker 1: media companies on the planet. He's traveled all around the

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Speaker 1: world on his self driven educational adventures, and prior to

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Speaker 1: joining Netflix, he let a design team at Corsera. He's

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Speaker 1: super passionate about mentorship and helping young designers on their journey,

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Speaker 1: spending a lot of time doing it. He's got a

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Speaker 1: lot of big work on his plate, but why it's

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Speaker 1: helping young designers on their journey among the biggest.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for shouting that out.

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Speaker 3: I guess the easy answer I can say is I

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Speaker 3: feel honored to be able to do that. Like everybody

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Speaker 3: doesn't have the opportunity to be able to affect that.

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Speaker 2: Many people or impact their community like that.

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Speaker 3: So I think I'm just very honored to be able

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Speaker 3: to do that, and that honor keeps me going as

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Speaker 3: well as just that's my nature, that's just how I am.

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Speaker 3: I did a sixteen personalities test, and part of my

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Speaker 3: strengths of that result of that test was I just

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Speaker 3: want the best for everybody, is what they said. That's

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Speaker 3: how I just look at the world. And I also

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Speaker 3: look at the world as I want to be able

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Speaker 3: to say that I have that I have and I

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Speaker 3: had impact. I'm just honored and I enjoy seeing people

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Speaker 3: thrive and grow and people open the door for me.

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Speaker 3: So it's almost a pay forward type of situation as well.

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Speaker 1: So you are a self taught designer, and I'm interested

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Speaker 1: in your take on today. You know, just several years ago,

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Speaker 1: we were, you know, just talking about how you needed

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Speaker 1: to go to school. Companies required it because it was

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Speaker 1: part of their filtering process. These days, maybe not so much.

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Speaker 1: I want you to speak on that. But being in

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Speaker 1: product design, how do you show, oh, number one, can

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Speaker 1: you do it being self taught? And secondarily, how do

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Speaker 1: you show that you've got the jobs to do it?

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Speaker 2: So yes, you can definitely get a See.

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Speaker 3: The thing is we have to be more specific about

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Speaker 3: the type of industry that we're talking about or the

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Speaker 3: specific company, because it's not fair to just say Google

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Speaker 3: or Netflix. I know those are the fame companies, so

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Speaker 3: that could be big tech you want to say, right,

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Speaker 3: but when you think of all of the different places

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Speaker 3: that are looking for product designers or are now adapting

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Speaker 3: design thinking have now given design a seat at the table.

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Speaker 3: There's millions of companies that you're just never going to

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Speaker 3: think of, right, So, yes, you can definitely get an

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Speaker 3: amazing job a design job at any stage of a

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Speaker 3: company's life cycle.

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Speaker 2: I can say you can go from being an entrepreneur.

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Speaker 3: And creating your own company to working at a startup

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Speaker 3: to working at a Series B or C D company

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Speaker 3: that's work one hundreds of millions, or you can work

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Speaker 3: with an IPO company and all of them will hire

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Speaker 3: a self taught designer because it's more about the experience

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Speaker 3: that you have. So if you are able to use

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Speaker 3: your self taught skills to then get opportunities and get

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Speaker 3: experiences to answer your second question, to show the skills

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Speaker 3: that you have, that's how you get the job.

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Speaker 2: The other names and stuff go with it.

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Speaker 3: So if you tell somebody you work that meta, they're

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Speaker 3: going to think you had a higher quality of experience,

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Speaker 3: so that's why they're interested in you.

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Speaker 2: Yes, the meta part.

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Speaker 3: Is important, but what is the real importance is they

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Speaker 3: think you have a certain skill set, so you need

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Speaker 3: to be able to demonstrate that you have that skill

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Speaker 3: set and that's through your experiences. So that's why you

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Speaker 3: get a job and have a resume and have a

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Speaker 3: LinkedIn page that shows where have you worked, what have.

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Speaker 2: You done, what skills do you have?

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Speaker 3: And now the company decides does your skill set match

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Speaker 3: the problem solving that they be done.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's dig into that, because when you use the

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Speaker 1: words skills a couple of times, I want to make

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Speaker 1: sure people know what you're actually talking about. So, because

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Speaker 1: there's a difference between being like a pigma beast, like

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Speaker 1: you can just run circles inside Figma or Adobe or

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Speaker 1: and a difference between that and being just a person

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Speaker 1: who develops really beautiful products. And so can you talk

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Speaker 1: about when you say skills, I can show the skills

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Speaker 1: that I have. What do you define that for me?

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Speaker 3: So the skills would be defined by the individual of

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Speaker 3: where they say their strengths are or where they want

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Speaker 3: to pursue their career in. When you think of a

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Speaker 3: products life cycle, there's different phases and those different phases

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Speaker 3: require different skills. So if you are a visual person,

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Speaker 3: you may want to focused on the visual design, which

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Speaker 3: maybe UI, which would be almost like a couple steps

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Speaker 3: into the process as opposed to per se, I'm a

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Speaker 3: product designer and I'm trying to help ideate the idea

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Speaker 3: and come up with it from the beginning, So my

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Speaker 3: skills might be more just like an innovative thinker.

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Speaker 2: I like, I'm good.

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Speaker 3: At brainstorming, I'm good at coming up with zero to

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Speaker 3: one ideas. So that might be the skills that I'm

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Speaker 3: saying I have as a product designer. Where a visual

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Speaker 3: designer might say what you just said of I'm really

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Speaker 3: good in figma, I've done a bunch of you why,

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Speaker 3: I can really take take wireframes and bring them to

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Speaker 3: life and make them inciting and make users want to

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Speaker 3: interact with them. So that would be the skills of

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Speaker 3: that person. Where if you were a ux researcher, you

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Speaker 3: really can come up with deep understand you know how

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Speaker 3: to interact with your users to get their insights from

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Speaker 3: them about different products that you may be working on

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Speaker 3: or different questions you have, So you have research skills.

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Speaker 2: So it's all about out what.

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Speaker 3: Do you want to work on, what brings you joy,

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Speaker 3: what brings you passion, what excites you, and then now

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Speaker 3: the skills for that specific industry or domain will be

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Speaker 3: different and will be unique, and they'll be overlapping things

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Speaker 3: like that.

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Speaker 2: But man, the bucket of skills is.

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Speaker 1: And so when you are you are today leading product design,

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Speaker 1: particularly for conversion at Netflix. And in my view, I mean,

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Speaker 1: maybe this is me translating it for myself, but you're

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Speaker 1: you're designing for sales, You're designing to keep people on

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Speaker 1: the site. You're designed to keep people going down the

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Speaker 1: rabbit hole in Netflix. So I'm gonna let you translate

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Speaker 1: it for your own. I'ma let you define that. But

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Speaker 1: when when we think about product design, I when I

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Speaker 1: listen to you talk, and I've listened to other interviews

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Speaker 1: you've had. We've been friends for a while, and i

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Speaker 1: listened to your other interview, and I'm like, this guy

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Speaker 1: is a man that thinks about data. He's and I

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Speaker 1: saw this quote I want to bring up. I don't

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Speaker 1: even know if you remember say this, but you said,

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Speaker 1: at this stage of my career, I don't like to guess.

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Speaker 1: I don't like to assume either. The data doesn't dictate

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Speaker 1: the design, but help support and give direction for it.

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Speaker 1: So can you take those things I just mentioned there

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Speaker 1: and just talk more about that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 3: So the second part I love to speak on because

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Speaker 3: when you're working with a user base that's as large

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Speaker 3: as Netflix is, we have about two hundred and sixty

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Speaker 3: million subscribers, you really any decisions you make are going

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Speaker 3: to affect a large amount of people.

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Speaker 2: Now, even if you do a small test, a small

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Speaker 2: test for us.

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Speaker 3: Might be two million people, that's still two million people.

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Speaker 3: If we do like a like a multi large user

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Speaker 3: based test, that could be fifty sixty million people. You

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Speaker 3: really shouldn't be guessing when you're affecting that many people.

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Speaker 3: And if you have the resources and you have the data,

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Speaker 3: now you use that data to help figure out the

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Speaker 3: dues and don't of solving this problem where if you're

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Speaker 3: just guessing, you might make the wrong decision, where when

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Speaker 3: you have the data might tell you you shouldn't even

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Speaker 3: be worrying about that part of this problem, like that's

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Speaker 3: not where the problem is, or this is where you

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Speaker 3: should be focused more on. So that will fluctuate depending

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Speaker 3: on the problem you're solving. But that's where I'm coming from.

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Speaker 3: Of I still have to come up with the solution

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Speaker 3: for it, but my solution is a lot more educated,

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Speaker 3: So my chances of success is a lot higher because

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Speaker 3: I have the data to back it up.

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Speaker 2: So that's where I'm coming from.

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Speaker 3: Of right now, I'm less about oh, did Fonds make

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Speaker 3: the right decision? I'm more focused on is this the

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Speaker 3: best decision for our user? And now what are all

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Speaker 3: of the different things I need to do to make

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Speaker 3: sure that that's the best decision.

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Speaker 2: So it's almost says as.

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Speaker 3: My career have grown has grown, I've kind of taken

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Speaker 3: myself out of being the person that I'm designing for

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Speaker 3: trying to make happy, and I'm really.

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Speaker 2: Focused on the user.

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Speaker 3: So I'm very user centric with my design and my

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Speaker 3: career I think now and forever moving forward.

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Speaker 2: I always was user centric, but there still.

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Speaker 3: Was so much that I was focusing in and trying

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Speaker 3: to just prove to myself that I.

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Speaker 2: Was a designer. Where now I'm more getting the job done.

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Speaker 3: And to get that done, it takes a lot, like

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Speaker 3: it takes a lot of cross collaboration, it takes a

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Speaker 3: lot of understanding of multiple domains at once, and it

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Speaker 3: takes you being able to really know how to use

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Speaker 3: the data to make the best decisions.

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Speaker 1: You just said something. I thought it was interesting. You

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Speaker 1: just said you know I've been. I was trying to

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Speaker 1: prove to myself that I was a designer. You know,

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Speaker 1: Tay you more about that if you can.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Sure.

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Speaker 3: I think when anybody's getting started in the career, you're

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Speaker 3: trying to build that confidence up, and you're probably comparing

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Speaker 3: yourself to people who you look up to, who have

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Speaker 3: more experience than you, and you want to be in

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Speaker 3: their shoes one day. So it's easy for you to

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Speaker 3: kind of and I don't like this term, but it's

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Speaker 3: true to kind of develop imposter syndrome. I don't think

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Speaker 3: it's imposter because imposter is me trying to perform surgery

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Speaker 3: on somebody. I have no right to even think about

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Speaker 3: doing anything in medicine, but.

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Speaker 2: A lot of things design related.

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Speaker 3: I mean I might not be an expert in that,

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Speaker 3: but I think I have the right to stand up.

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Speaker 2: I know what I'm talking about.

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Speaker 3: So it's not that you're an impost it's just the

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Speaker 3: responsibilities and the expectations. It be so high sometimes that

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Speaker 3: you don't feel like you might be able to get

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Speaker 3: it done, and you're constantly reassuring yourself through different projects

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Speaker 3: that you work on.

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Speaker 2: And we're only.

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Speaker 3: Human and we're sensitive and I think we forget about

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Speaker 3: that part when we're building product and we're building tech.

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Speaker 2: It's like we forget about the humanity side of it.

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Speaker 3: And that's always there, it's the foundation of it. So

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Speaker 3: when you're growing your career and as you move to

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Speaker 3: new jobs and with more responsibilities, you're constantly trying to

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Speaker 3: prove to yourself that.

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Speaker 2: Yo, you can do this, and you're good enough and

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Speaker 2: you earned to be here.

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Speaker 3: And then depending on what other societal things you may

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Speaker 3: have going on, like are you a female versus a male?

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Speaker 3: Like are you from an underrepresented community? Like where'd you

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Speaker 3: go to school? All of those different things play a

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Speaker 3: part when you're working in this, just like ecosystem, So

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Speaker 3: at certain times you might find yourself I think not

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Speaker 3: necessarily designing for the wrong reasons because you should make

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Speaker 3: yourself happy, but you start to lose focus on what

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Speaker 3: you should really be focused on. And that's why I

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Speaker 3: said I'm a user centered now as opposed to just

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Speaker 3: like what does fonds thinking?

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Speaker 2: Do I think this looks great?

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Speaker 3: Sometimes it designs that end up shipping aren't the ones

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Speaker 3: that I think are the best designs. But it didn't

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Speaker 3: matter because the data proved that this other design was

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Speaker 3: more efficient, so that's what we went with.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So in that same interview where I got that quote,

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Speaker 1: you were talking about the data and you were talking

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Speaker 1: about how, hey, somebody says, you know, people in Korea

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Speaker 1: are canceling. And then okay, so now you're going to

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Speaker 1: go dig into the data to figure out, Okay, is

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Speaker 1: that really true? Number one? And then why, And you

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Speaker 1: said something I thought was so interesting. You were like,

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Speaker 1: you know, at some level you've got to talk to them,

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Speaker 1: talk to the customers and see, okay, why are you canceling?

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, but he's at Netflix. And I remember

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Speaker 1: this this quote from Paul Graham who said, you know,

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Speaker 1: do things that don't scale. Doing things that don't scale,

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Speaker 1: that's how you get to scale. And I'm like, even

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Speaker 1: at Netflix, you are doing things like you can't pick

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Speaker 1: up the phone and call it one million people, you

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Speaker 1: can't pick up the phone and called fifty million, but

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Speaker 1: you're talking still to customers, even at that big of

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Speaker 1: a stage.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you have to talk to customers. I mean, I

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Speaker 3: think that's one of the.

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Speaker 2: Favorite parts of my job. Honestly.

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Speaker 3: We just had some calls that we had to really

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Speaker 3: work hard to ramp up to get done because the

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Speaker 3: timeframe of the window that we had to actually do

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Speaker 3: the calls.

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Speaker 2: And calls are qualitative research.

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Speaker 3: So qualitative is when you're like physically talking to somebody.

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Speaker 3: You're working with an individual versus like a focused group

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Speaker 3: versus quantitative could just be surveys.

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Speaker 2: So we could do a quantitative survey and.

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Speaker 3: Send that out the millions of people and now you're

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Speaker 3: at the mercy of whoever opens it and spam, but

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Speaker 3: you're going to get a huge group of people, right,

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Speaker 3: So quantitative is super valuable. But then qualitative is super

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Speaker 3: valuable because that's me sitting down with you now and

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Speaker 3: me being able to show you and say, hey, Will,

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Speaker 3: what's your thoughts about this? And then you say X,

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Speaker 3: y Z, And then I show you something else and

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Speaker 3: you give this and you give that.

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Speaker 2: So now they come.

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Speaker 3: Up with an idea that I think I have, but

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Speaker 3: I'm not just relying on me validating it. I'm making

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Speaker 3: sure that it actually has value for the people who

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Speaker 3: who I thought I'm solving is for. So by showing

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Speaker 3: this to you, I can now hear from you and

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Speaker 3: you might give me a completely different set of feedback

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Speaker 3: that is opposite of what I thought, and it's better

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Speaker 3: for me to hear that feedback from you now and

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Speaker 3: improve the idea or scrap the idea. Now I'll make

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Speaker 3: the decision on how much of your input I want

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Speaker 3: to take. But now when we start thinking of depending

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Speaker 3: on the size of the research, If you do research

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Speaker 3: of fifteen people and all fifteen people don't understand what's

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Speaker 3: going on, that's a sign that most people.

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Speaker 2: Are probably not going to know what's going on.

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Speaker 3: So you can now take that information, take that data

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Speaker 3: once again, go back to the drawing board, make some edits,

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Speaker 3: go maybe test one more time, and now that second

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Speaker 3: time around you might see twelve people understand it. So

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Speaker 3: the first go zero understood it. You took the learners

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Speaker 3: from that, fixed it, went back twelve people understand it.

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Speaker 3: Now you probably got a better chance of more people

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Speaker 3: will understand that, and you figure out what's the next

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Speaker 3: step of testing and things like that. So you tie

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Speaker 3: the user research into experimentation and I think it just

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Speaker 3: really allows you to build a way better product before

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Speaker 3: it gets to market. And the last thing I'll say

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Speaker 3: is the reason why that is important When you have

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Speaker 3: a brand that is IPO, meaning they're trading on the

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Speaker 3: stock market, their stock price can be very volatile and

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Speaker 3: tied to public perception and current brand state. So if

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Speaker 3: you roll out something bad that all of your users

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Speaker 3: jump on Twitter x Instagram and they're talking smack, and

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Speaker 3: now the market hears about that, that could negatively affect

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Speaker 3: your stock price, which negatively affects your stakeholders and your shareholders,

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Speaker 3: and it's just it gets all bad. So you want

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Speaker 3: to really avoid that when you really are a when

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Speaker 3: the basis of your company is a product, like Netflix

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Speaker 3: is a product. So it would be in our best

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Speaker 3: interest to make sure all of our products are at

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Speaker 3: the highest quality every time you roll them out and

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Speaker 3: there are no snack foods or hiccups because that backtracking

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Speaker 3: of that feature or that negative sentiment and the market

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Speaker 3: can really affect us as a company. So not to

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Speaker 3: be long winded, but that's why you have to do

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Speaker 3: all of that, because at the end of the day,

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Speaker 3: we're trying to make sure you all are happy, and

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Speaker 3: when you're not happy, everybody suffers, you meaning the customer.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know there's something I've heard you say

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Speaker 1: several times and not just this interview and others where

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Speaker 1: you said you know at Netflix, like you have a

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Speaker 1: lot of resources, you have a lot of things you

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Speaker 1: can pull from to be able to do things at

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Speaker 1: a big scale small skill You get to pick big scale,

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Speaker 1: small scale whatever. And so when you talked about doing

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Speaker 1: that research, qualitative research, what I find is, with a

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Speaker 1: lot of founders and you mentioned this worst, I'll bring

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Speaker 1: it back up, we're sensitive and so we can there's

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Speaker 1: sometimes you can be inauthentic with your questions to people

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Speaker 1: with customers, you know, potential users too, because you don't

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Speaker 1: want you want to structure the question in a way

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Speaker 1: to get the answer. You want them to give you right.

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Speaker 1: And so so how do so understanding what's sensitive? Understanding

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Speaker 1: A lot of people who listen to this will be founders,

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Speaker 1: will be entrepreneurs who are trying to get, you know,

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Speaker 1: to the fame level. You know, Facebook, Apple, Netflix, Google,

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Speaker 1: and there's there's this now and video even when you

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Speaker 1: choose video, yeah, incredible. So how do you how do

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Speaker 1: you ensure you're being authentic in that qualitative research, especially

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Speaker 1: when you're just trying you know, there's this whole other

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Speaker 1: thing of you know, if you're not embarrassed by your

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Speaker 1: first release, you've released too late, because you can do

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Speaker 1: so much research, so much design, so much et cetera.

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Speaker 1: And now you just spend a whole bunch of money,

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Speaker 1: how much of resource or something that nobody even wants

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Speaker 1: to use in the first place.

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Speaker 2: Right, which is the worst case scenario.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's what a lot of founders or

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Speaker 3: companies end up doing.

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Speaker 2: So you don't want to.

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Speaker 3: Waste your time working on things that really won't solve

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Speaker 3: the problem that that like you're looking for, or that

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Speaker 3: the customer is like looking for. So you want to

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Speaker 3: make sure that you're always talking to your your customers

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Speaker 3: to really understand, like asking questions that don't solve the

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Speaker 3: problems that the company needs is a complete waste of time,

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Speaker 3: to be honest with you, Like that's the most blunt

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Speaker 3: way I can put it. To go through the motions

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Speaker 3: of scheduling, the research, the finances, the time, the expense,

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Speaker 3: like all of that stuff that it takes to do research,

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Speaker 3: to only ask questions to tailor them in a way

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Speaker 3: for you to get answers that you want is like

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Speaker 3: that's just unprofessional. It's to waste the time, it's not

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Speaker 3: going to really help you get anything done. Where this

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Speaker 3: is a shout out to my UX researchers at Netflix.

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Speaker 3: We grill like they come up with questions, We suggest questions,

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Speaker 3: We grial each other on the questions of like, that

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Speaker 3: question is just not going to get us to like

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Speaker 3: what you think we're going to get from that question.

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Speaker 2: It's not really going to help us as much as

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Speaker 2: you think it is.

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Speaker 3: Like I've had my UX research and tell me that

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Speaker 3: many times, and.

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Speaker 2: She wasn't trying to front on me or call me

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Speaker 2: out or nothing. She's just helping me.

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Speaker 3: Think that, Think about what do you need from every

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Speaker 3: question that you're asking and do you really need like

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Speaker 3: do you really need a vanity question? Like I tell

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Speaker 3: you that I like your shirt? Will I mean it

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Speaker 3: feels good? But do you really need that question? And

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Speaker 3: the answer is no.

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Speaker 1: So it's like, no, you don't like my shirt, No,

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Speaker 1: you don't let my shirt.

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Speaker 2: I like your shirt. Do you really need to tell

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Speaker 2: you that you know it's a nice shirt? You just

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Speaker 2: want to hear me.

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Speaker 4: There's the other stuff I could probably tell you. So

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Speaker 4: think about a UX research like that. That's a very

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Speaker 4: important time for you to interact with your user or

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Speaker 4: interact with your potential user and really understand and make

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Speaker 4: that connection possibly bond with them.

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Speaker 2: To really learn some critical information.

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Speaker 3: So to waste that time would just be like sad.

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Speaker 3: It would be sad and it's going to have an

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Speaker 3: impact where it's going to have a negative impact, where

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Speaker 3: if you had asked them the right questions, it could

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Speaker 3: have like such a positive impact because now you can

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Speaker 3: really say, Okay, I've shared this product with X users

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Speaker 3: and this was their feedback.

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Speaker 2: And if the feedback.

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Speaker 3: Is not what you wanted to hear, so what you

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Speaker 3: now use that feedback and you build on it and

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Speaker 3: you make the product better, and if it is what

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Speaker 3: you want to hear, then you're like, great, we got

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Speaker 3: some stuff validated in this research, and now that gives

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Speaker 3: a great life to do xyz. So either way, the

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Speaker 3: UX research is so important, and talking to users is

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Speaker 3: almost if I'm a part of any company, if I'm

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Speaker 3: talking to any founders, if any of my people's have questions,

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Speaker 3: I'm just always pushing for research, no matter how many

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Speaker 3: resources you have to bring us all the way back.

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Speaker 3: If you can only do research with five people, that's

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Speaker 3: better than zero. If you can do research with fifty million,

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Speaker 3: like bu can in Netflix, that's fantastic as well. But

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Speaker 3: just remember that the research is super super important.

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Speaker 1: If you're relearning or learning for the first time product

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Speaker 1: design today, knowing the tools that are available to you

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Speaker 1: today versus what was available when you were so when

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Speaker 1: you were teaching yourself, then what would you what would

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Speaker 1: you be doing or what do you advise people to

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Speaker 1: do that's relevant? What are the tools that are relevant

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Speaker 1: today to learning those methods of learning.

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Speaker 2: I don't even think I would tell you to jump

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Speaker 2: into tools.

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Speaker 3: I think tools is more like second, where first I

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Speaker 3: would tell people to focus more what kind of problems

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Speaker 3: do you want to solve?

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Speaker 2: First? Like, that's the first question.

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Speaker 3: That's like such a basic foundational question that I don't

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Speaker 3: think a lot of people probably have asked themselves in

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Speaker 3: the last couple of years. So first ask yourself that, right,

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Speaker 3: because that's going to open up the doors of if

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Speaker 3: you just pick a software, you may be able to

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Speaker 3: use that software, but that software may not be mandatory

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Speaker 3: or it may not get you where you want to go,

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Speaker 3: as opposed to if you have under like, if you

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Speaker 3: have an understanding of the problem you want to solve,

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Speaker 3: now you'll say, okay, well, this is means I'm going

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Speaker 3: to be a product designer versus a product manager. And

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Speaker 3: if you want to be a product manager, do you

442
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 3: really need to know figment. It's okay that you can

443
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:47,359
Speaker 3: bounce around in it, but that's not where you're going

444
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:49,119
Speaker 3: to spend most of your time. You're probably going to

445
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,400
Speaker 3: spend most of your time in Google docs or Google slides,

446
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,360
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. So having more of that

447
00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 3: understanding of what problems you want to solve, you want

448
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,199
Speaker 3: to go what you're passionate about, I think then the

449
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 3: tools will start to.

450
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 2: Move towards that.

451
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 3: You'll see where like I gave the example of product

452
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 3: manager might be more Google sweet stuff, product designer might

453
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 3: be more Figma, UI engineer might be a little bit

454
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,640
Speaker 3: of Figma and Java script. So you start to if

455
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 3: you data science, you might just be in some custom

456
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 3: tools that you have, or you may just be looking

457
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 3: at reports all day. So I don't think it's a

458
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 3: specific tool that I would tell somebody to go to.

459
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,400
Speaker 3: I would tell them that tool will make itself apparent

460
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 3: after you understand either what problem or what industry or

461
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:48,640
Speaker 3: what users you want to be solving problems for, Like if.

462
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 2: That makes sense, it.

463
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 1: And so you know if anybody follows you, and I

464
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 1: know this well, like if anybody follows you on any

465
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: social they realize you are you stay on the PJA,

466
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:05,199
Speaker 1: you out here, you're really well traveled, passport heavy. I

467
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:09,199
Speaker 1: do love traveling, and so you know you I mean Europe,

468
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 1: South you know, South America, Central area is South Asia,

469
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,960
Speaker 1: all over the place. And I wonder, can you be

470
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:21,640
Speaker 1: a successful designer with a local you know, like having

471
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 1: not traveled, especially for somebody like a Netflix.

472
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, for sure.

473
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,880
Speaker 3: But remember everything is relative. Will like everything is relative,

474
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 3: like do you want to work? And some people don't

475
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,719
Speaker 3: want to work at a big organization like Netflix. Some

476
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 3: people like a smaller or or some people want to

477
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:43,639
Speaker 3: be an entrepreneur.

478
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 2: So I think it's up to once again us to help.

479
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,679
Speaker 3: People understand that you need to do that kind of

480
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 3: foundational self awareness work and then that will be the

481
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 3: pathway to everything else.

482
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 2: And then you'll be able to say, because like a.

483
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,959
Speaker 3: Person who's in per se, like the Philippines, maybe they

484
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 3: want to work at Netflix, maybe they don't. So instead

485
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 3: of like just gauging it by the company, it's more

486
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 3: of what does this impact that you want to give?

487
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 3: Look like are you putting out great work where you're

488
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,640
Speaker 3: getting replied from your users of your solving problems and

489
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 3: they're happy to use your product. You can do that

490
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 3: in a lot of companies. You don't have to just

491
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 3: be at a big fan company to do that. So

492
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,640
Speaker 3: by having that like self understanding, I think you can

493
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 3: thrive as a designer anywhere in any continent, any country,

494
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 3: any city.

495
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 1: Honestly, yeah, so let's let's so do you make me

496
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 1: bring up an AI question on this? Because you know,

497
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 1: AI is an incredible conversation to be having today. You

498
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 1: have to have this conversation at every level of any

499
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:58,479
Speaker 1: type of technology discussion or even just life discussion these days.

500
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,959
Speaker 1: Do you consider being better travel more, having a bigger

501
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 1: world view? I should say, maybe not even just travel,

502
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 1: but a bigger worldview allows you to be more valuable

503
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:17,199
Speaker 1: more of an asset specific to design, Because if I

504
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 1: only have a modicum of skill, a little bit of skills,

505
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: there are things coming for that. And so how do

506
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 1: I make myself more valuable to an organization because my

507
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 1: perspective is better? That's where that question comes from.

508
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, I hate you, well, I would honestly say that

509
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 3: the traveling I think is a passion of mine and

510
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 3: I've found a way to tie that passion into my

511
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 3: professional life through public speaking, and that's how I continue

512
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 3: to do that. I do think I grow as a

513
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 3: person by traveling because I learned more about cultures, I

514
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 3: see more things, I'm exposed to more. So I think

515
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,440
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, that helps me grow

516
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 3: as funds, and me growing as funds allows me to

517
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 3: be a better designer. I think that you don't have

518
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 3: to travel to become a great designer. I think the

519
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 3: traveling does also help with your network though, and I

520
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,879
Speaker 3: think networking is part of being a designer. So I

521
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 3: think it's more about what are you looking for at

522
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:25,120
Speaker 3: that moment. I think traveling is important because I think

523
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 3: being open minded and learning and seeing and experiences is

524
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 3: one of the best parts of life, you know what

525
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 3: I mean. But I think there's a lot of traveling

526
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 3: that you can do just in the States that a

527
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 3: lot of people don't do. I still haven't been to

528
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:38,920
Speaker 3: the Grand Canyon, you know what I mean, Like that's

529
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 3: one of the wonders of the world. I still haven't

530
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 3: been to Seattle. There's so many things I still haven't done.

531
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:48,439
Speaker 3: So I think the international travel is a pleasure of mind.

532
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 3: It's like a passion of mind. I've been traveling since

533
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 3: I was a kid. But I think that the designers nowadays,

534
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 3: whether you're trying to get started or whether you're a

535
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,959
Speaker 3: senior designer, travel would just be an extra part of it.

536
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 3: Like I don't think it really is is even slightly mandatory.

537
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 1: You know, you've spoken that many conferences that you just

538
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: talked about your speaking career, which is you know, I'm

539
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: assuming parallel to your you know, corporate career. You spoken

540
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: to Afrotech and other stages, big stages.

541
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 2: Afrotech s to Afrotech shout out.

542
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 3: They gave you, honestly, part of the like to tie

543
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 3: back into the first question that you asked me, A

544
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 3: lot of the reason that I'm so proactive in the

545
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 3: community is because of the doors of afrotech Open. Afrotech

546
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 3: gave me a shot when I was like a young

547
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 3: young homie. I was just getting started out there in

548
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 3: the Bay Area with speaking. But that was such a

549
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 3: big stage in front of so many people, and it's

550
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 3: such a credible organization that after that experience, it's just

551
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 3: like I haven't looked back.

552
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 2: And that was literally five years ago.

553
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and yeah, you've done beautiful works, and so

554
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:58,719
Speaker 1: I'm on to I want to ask you about that,

555
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: like how do you you choose what you're going to

556
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 1: speak about when you hit those stages.

557
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 3: So I'm in a position where I'm fortunate enough where

558
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 3: they ask me what do I.

559
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 2: Want to speak about?

560
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 3: Usually, and there's different topics that I like to discuss

561
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 3: depending on who the audience would be or maybe with

562
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 3: the theme of the conferences about.

563
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 2: And that's how I gauge.

564
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 3: For instance, when I went to Japan, I did a

565
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 3: full day workshop about inclusive design.

566
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 2: When I went to bill a C.

567
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,959
Speaker 3: Georgia recently, I did a talk that was more about

568
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 3: business design. I've done conversations that's more just about inclusion

569
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 3: in itself or accessibility.

570
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 2: So I think it's more gauged around.

571
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 3: I'm so well versed in different things because I love

572
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 3: this stuff that I have the luxury at times to

573
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 3: pick different topics. It's always under designed to a certain extent,

574
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 3: but it's never the exact same talk or the exact

575
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 3: same slides or the exact same topic.

576
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: And so I mean, you know this better than most

577
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 1: Like getting promoted and getting to your level has maybe

578
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: maybe more to do with how you navigate spaces and

579
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: your skill. It's not just about having the skill, it's

580
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: politics involved, and so how so how do you can

581
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: you discuss that and how what can we learn from

582
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 1: your story and how you've managed to do both well

583
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 1: be very good at what you do and manage the

584
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: politics of what you do.

585
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 2: That's a really good question.

586
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 3: I think you should probably say that one and ask

587
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 3: everybody that one.

588
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 2: I would say, Man, I'm just I'm just me. I'm

589
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 2: just Fonds, you know, and I tell people that all

590
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 2: the time.

591
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 3: I just this sounds cliche, but I really try my

592
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 3: best to be my authentic self.

593
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 2: I don't like when I'm not being my authentic self.

594
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 2: But I don't like when.

595
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 3: I'm switching or changing up or thinking else, none of that,

596
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 3: because that's not me. Like I'm where I am because

597
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 3: of who I am. So like, I spend a lot

598
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 3: of time working on my self confidence because you really

599
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 3: need that self confidence to fight these battles every single day,

600
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 3: Like it's hard out here, so definitely take the time too.

601
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 2: And then that self confidence comes in a lot of

602
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 2: different ways.

603
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 3: It's not just oh you're confident, because people tell you

604
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 3: because people give you confidents all the time. Maybe you're

605
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 3: you're confident because you know inside you put your X

606
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 3: amount of time into this, so.

607
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 2: You're good, you know what I mean. But having that

608
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 2: type of.

609
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 3: Understanding is really important because there's going to be times

610
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 3: where this journey is going to test you. And when

611
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 3: you get tested is where you now have to decide

612
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 3: what are you gonna do? And the more confident you are,

613
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 3: the greater your chances are probably succeeding through those tough

614
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 3: times because you're probably gonna be able to still must

615
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 3: to rupt that energy, still must to rupt that faith.

616
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 3: You still have that belief in yourself that you can

617
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 3: get this done as opposed to per se bowan down

618
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 3: and being a nice person, Like being a nice person

619
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 3: goes a long way, and I don't think a lot

620
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 3: of people understand that anymore so and being very humble.

621
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 3: I'm a very humble dude. I'm still down to earth, man.

622
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 3: I still my feeling still get hurt. I still blushed

623
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 3: when somebody tells me something really positive about it. So

624
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 3: all of that to say is just like, remember that

625
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 3: it's about the journey, you know what I'm saying.

626
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 2: So make the journey.

627
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 3: As fun as possible, make it as learn as much

628
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 3: as you can, meet as many people, help as many

629
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 3: people as you can, you know what I mean, Take

630
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 3: as many risk as you can do.

631
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,719
Speaker 2: All of that's all, all of the part of the journey.

632
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 3: Like you want to be able to look back on

633
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 3: your career and feel like, man, I really I left

634
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 3: it out there, like I left.

635
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 2: It all on the court, like I gave them boards

636
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 2: five thousand percent. That's how I want to look at things.

637
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 2: So I make sure like I'm doing that. And now

638
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 2: there's different ways that I do that.

639
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 3: And that's like I do a lot of mentoring with

640
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 3: up and coming designers. Now more people reach out to

641
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 3: me than I can meet with, but the like ten

642
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 3: twenty fifty people I might meet with the year, that

643
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 3: still makes me feel good, you know what I mean.

644
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 3: So knowing that I'm out there just giving it, giving

645
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 3: it all I got, and I think that's what everybody

646
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 3: should always strive to do, like leave it all out

647
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 3: there every day and that would be enough because when

648
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 3: you look back and just be like, yo, I did

649
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 3: the best side of dude, I did the best I could,

650
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 3: And that feels good, like it feels good to say that.

651
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: Black Tech Green Money is the production of Blavity, Afro

652
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 1: Tech and The Black Effect podcast Network and night Heart Media.

653
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 1: It is produced by Morgan Debonne and me Well Lucas,

654
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 1: with additional production support by Kate McDonald and Sarah Ergan.

655
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 1: Special thank you to Michael Davison, Love Beach. Learn more

656
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 1: about My Guess and other tech disrupt it's an innovators

657
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,360
Speaker 1: at afrotech dot com. At the video version of this episode,

658
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: we'll drop the Black Tech Green Money on YouTube, So

659
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 1: tap in enjoying Black Tech Green Money. Show this to somebody.

660
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: Go get your money, piece and love