1 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: Mary was out. After twenty years, twenty years of uplifting 2 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: moments of spiritual grace, twenty years of vexing questions about 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: her vocation. Mary Johnson put on her Paisley skirt and 4 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: gold blouse and stepped out of the convent in Rome 5 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: and into a van. This was it. Mary left the 6 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: Missionaries of Charity. Her sister picked her up from the 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: airport in Houston. On the way to her house, they 8 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 1: made a stab. Mary would be living outside the convent 9 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: for the first time in decades, and her sister said 10 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: she'd need a few things. 11 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 2: I need to pick up a mattress for you. I 12 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 2: didn't know if you like the hard ones or the 13 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 2: soft ones. 14 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: Mary wasn't used to getting to choose a mattress, let 15 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 1: alone having a real mattress. As a missionary of charity. 16 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 1: They'd stuff their own mattresses with wool or whatever was around, 17 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: and it was only about three inches thick. 18 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 2: And here I was going to get to choose my 19 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 2: own mattress from this enormous selection. So that was kind 20 00:00:58,120 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 2: of weird. 21 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: Then her sister had an errand in mind, she had 22 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: a pool at her place, and she knew how much 23 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 1: Mary loved the water, at least when she was a kid. 24 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: So have all things to do. After twenty years in 25 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: a convent, they went simsuit chopping. 26 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,040 Speaker 2: I mean, most of my body hadn't seen the sun 27 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 2: in twenty years. And there I was going to get 28 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 2: a swimming suit. And I was just so embarrassed and like, 29 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:25,960 Speaker 2: I wouldn't let her come into the dressing room with me. 30 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 2: And anyway, we found a swimming suit that fit and 31 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:30,839 Speaker 2: brought her home. 32 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,040 Speaker 1: Mary had her own room, and even though so much 33 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: was new, new mattress, new swimsuit, new bedroom, she still 34 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 1: automatically woke up at four forty every morning. It was 35 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: like she was still in sync with the community she 36 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 1: had left as an MC. She felt that sense of 37 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: community from the moment she woke up. But now early 38 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: in the morning she just lay there quietly alone. She 39 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: might even go back to sleep. And she liked that too. 40 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 2: No better, well was going to ring, that was going 41 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 2: to force me out of bed and onto my knees. 42 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 2: That was really nice. I could choose what I wanted 43 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 2: to get up. 44 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: First thing each morning, Mary went to her sister's pool 45 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: and swam. It felt luxurious, It felt free. 46 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 2: You can take off the habit and grow your hair 47 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 2: and start walking around like a regular person. But inside, 48 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,799 Speaker 2: being a missionary of charity leaves a very very very 49 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 2: deep mark. And for me being there for twenty years 50 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 2: and so deeply immersed, separating wasn't just simply a matter 51 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 2: of leaving. 52 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: From a cocoa punch and iHeartRadio. This is the Turning 53 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:18,079 Speaker 1: America Lands Part ten. Out there, the world had changed 54 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: since Mary Johnson became a missionary of charity in the 55 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: late seventies. Something she had a reference point for, but 56 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: a lot of it was completely foreign. Pumping your own gas, 57 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: going to the ATM, using a computer. 58 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 2: One time, my niece made popcorn in the microwave, and 59 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 2: I thought the house was going to explode because I 60 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 2: had no idea what that was. I had no idea 61 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 2: listen noises. Popcorn in the microwave was a revelation. 62 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: When she left the order, a sister gave her four 63 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: hundred German marks, the equivalent of a little more than 64 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 1: two hundred dollars, for her twenty years. 65 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 2: I looked at that deposit slip and I thought, look 66 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 2: at that. They gave me eleven dollars for every year 67 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 2: of service. Oh my gosh, talk about a minimum wage 68 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 2: eleven dollars a year. Eleven dollars a year. 69 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: Mary still trusted in God, but that wasn't going to 70 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 1: pay the bills. One of her first jobs was at J. C. 71 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,039 Speaker 1: Penny in December of nineteen ninety seven, the Christmas rush. 72 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 2: I was used to silence and prayer, and here it 73 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,359 Speaker 2: was Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer and Frosty the Snowman 74 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 2: playing all the time. And it was all these people 75 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 2: with credit cards buying gift after gift, and a lot 76 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 2: of the stuff in the gift department were useless, chotski 77 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 2: kind of things, you know, these little figurines. I couldn't 78 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 2: figure out why people wanted little figurines. I was used 79 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 2: to repairing broken toys to gift to kids who would 80 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 2: otherwise have nothing on Christmas. It was strange. It was 81 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 2: strange for me. 82 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 1: Mary still remembers the first she went out to eat 83 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: in a restaurant. Her sister took the whole family out 84 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: to dinner. 85 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 2: I was faced there with this menu, with all these choices. 86 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 2: It took me forever to make up my mind. I 87 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 2: didn't know if I would ever again, And you know, 88 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 2: have a chance to choose what I was going to eat. 89 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 2: It was like this momentous decision. I think everybody was 90 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 2: getting kind of nervous with me because I wasn't making 91 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 2: up my mind, and the waiter had to come back, 92 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 2: and then eventually I ordered something. 93 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 1: As Mary mapped out her new life, her mind wanted 94 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: back to Tom Father. Tom had made the thought of 95 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: leaving possible. He had helped her imagine a life outside 96 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 1: the convent. They pictured waking up together, making coffee, holding 97 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: hands in public without guilt or shame. He'd given her 98 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: a taste of a fuller life, and she knew that's 99 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: what God wanted for her. When Mary asked the MC's 100 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 1: for exclstration that year of contemplation before officially leaving the order, 101 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: she had called Tom. He had asked her, does this 102 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: mean you would consider marrying me? She couldn't tell if 103 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 1: he meant it. It was such an awkward proposal, but 104 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 1: she needed time. Now she was in Texas, out of 105 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: her sorry and away from the convent. 106 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:17,159 Speaker 2: So at a certain point I knew I was ready 107 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 2: to talk to him, and that if he was gonna ask, 108 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 2: actually really directly, if I would consider marrying him, I 109 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 2: was ready to entertain that notion. 110 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: So she called him. It was the first time they talked, 111 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: and she left, but once she got him on the phone, 112 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: it was clear Tom had decided to remain a priest. 113 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 2: I definitely had to honor. That's that's what he wants. 114 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 2: That's the way it is. And yeah, how did it 115 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 2: feel to hear that? I was prepared to hear that. 116 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 2: It was. It was kind of sad, you know, it 117 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 2: kind of shut one door for me. There's very often 118 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 2: even if something said, if it comes to a certain 119 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 2: sense of clarity, it's a kind of a gift. I 120 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 2: appreciated the clarity. That was good. 121 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: And she moved on, still trying to hear what God 122 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: had to say. When Mary left the Missionaries of Charity, 123 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: she had work to do, not just finding a way 124 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: to make money or learning how to use technology. She 125 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: had to face the way the MCS had changed her internally. 126 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: She told me about a time she was staying at 127 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: a religious center. She'd moved out of her sister's house 128 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: after a couple of months, and she found this center 129 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: with sabbatical programming and wellness treatment for clergy. It was 130 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: around this time that she noticed how muddled. Her emotional 131 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: responses were. 132 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 2: I was talking with the sister who was in charge 133 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 2: of the place, and it was some thing very sad 134 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 2: or upsetting. I don't really remember what I was talking 135 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 2: to her about, but I remember that I was very 136 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 2: sad and I felt like I wanted to cry, but 137 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 2: what came out was these giggles and just laughter. It 138 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 2: was like, I don't know how to express my emotions 139 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 2: properly anymore, because missionaries of charity are not supposed to 140 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 2: be sad. You're supposed to be cheerful all the time. 141 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 2: You're supposed to smile. And I had just been disconnected 142 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 2: from what I might be feeling inside. How to express 143 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 2: that I didn't know, and so whenever there was something said, 144 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 2: I was like laughing instead of crying. I think that 145 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 2: one of the big things that I've been working on 146 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 2: for many decades now is trying to reconnect my emotions 147 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 2: and their expression, trying to reconnect my mind and my body, 148 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 2: trying to be fully connected. I have been consciously working 149 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 2: on that. 150 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,559 Speaker 1: In a way, she had to relearn how to think 151 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 1: and how to feel. God had called her out, but 152 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: in the real world it would take time to shift 153 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: her mindset. She had to untangle guilt and questions about faith, 154 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 1: come to terms with her relationship with Mother Teresa. There 155 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 1: was no one moment, no final epiphany. Mary was at 156 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,839 Speaker 1: that center for priests and nuns when Mother Teresa died. 157 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 2: I found out from one of them who had heard 158 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:42,439 Speaker 2: it on television, and it was it was a shock. 159 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 2: It was very hard to mourn Mother Teresa's passing alone 160 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 2: without the sisters. Why well, imagine someone who's very close 161 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,559 Speaker 2: to you, in your family, and perhaps you're a mother, 162 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 2: and when she dies, you can't be with the family. 163 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,359 Speaker 2: You have to be off on your own, by yourself. 164 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 2: That's hard. I had tried to call the sisters in 165 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 2: Rome many times but never managed to get through. Of course, 166 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 2: the phone there was always busy, even during regular times, 167 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 2: so when mother died, even more so I never managed 168 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 2: to get through. 169 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: A few days after Mother Teresa died, there is a 170 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 1: memorial celebration at a cathedral in Houston. Mary went and 171 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 1: sat in the back. In his homily, the bishops spoke 172 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: about how he met Mother Teresa once when her plane 173 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 1: had a layover in Houston, and. 174 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 2: He spent about half an hour with her, and there 175 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 2: I was who had known and followed and loved her 176 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 2: for twenty years. 177 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: In the back, she knelt in the pew and cried. 178 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 2: And it all felt so strange. They had a big 179 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 2: picture of her up at the front, and after nearly 180 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 2: everyone had gone, I went and stood in front of 181 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 2: that picture. For a long time I did. I felt 182 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 2: like I had lost a family member or someone who 183 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:11,199 Speaker 2: knew me, someone who I cared for, someone who cared 184 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 2: for me. Of course, my last conversation with mother had 185 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 2: been very, very difficult, so that's also kind of hard 186 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:24,079 Speaker 2: knowing that somehow I had disappointed her. 187 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: That feeling did not go away easily. Over the course 188 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: of your life, there are times when you have to 189 00:11:54,960 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: leave things behind, maybe a relationship, a job, your family, home. 190 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 1: Leaving DMCs is all of those at once, and that's 191 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 1: just the first step. Then you have to make your 192 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: own way. 193 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 3: I mean, the first couple of weeks you're just happy 194 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 3: to be back with great meals and a great bed 195 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 3: and you know, incredibly loving people around you. But for me, 196 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 3: the other piece of the pain is you're gone for 197 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 3: so long and you're trying to come back into your 198 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 3: family and so many years of their connections and growth 199 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 3: and life you are not a part of. 200 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: Sue Weber is the sister who ran the AIDS hospice 201 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 1: in San Francisco. 202 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,679 Speaker 3: Even now, for me, there's elements and they're not good 203 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 3: or bad. I think they're just I think it will 204 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 3: always be that way, where you know you're a part 205 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 3: of the family and you're super connected. But there's an 206 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,439 Speaker 3: element that there's so much that you missed in that 207 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 3: journey that you're a lot of time was on the 208 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 3: outside looking in. 209 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 1: People don't really know what you've been through. How could they? 210 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: How do you describe what it's really like inside a 211 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: closed community led by a celebrity saint? How do you 212 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: get past people's assumptions. When Sue first left, she still 213 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: wore her sorry. She was still weighing what to do, 214 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: go back to the EMCES or leave. She'd moved to 215 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: her hometown in Pennsylvania to live with her parents. She says, 216 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: when you wear the white and blue sorry, everyone notices you. 217 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 3: You know, people would stop you on the street and 218 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 3: be like, can I touch you? 219 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: It's like people didn't see her. They saw what she 220 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 1: wore and what that represented. They saw Mother Teresa, the 221 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: mother Teresa. They thought they knew, and that got in 222 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:48,959 Speaker 1: the way of her decision making. 223 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 3: I couldn't come to any clarity unless I took off 224 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 3: the habit and was seen. 225 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,199 Speaker 1: So she rode to the MC's and got permission to 226 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: wear street clothes. Sue's sister Joan has been out of 227 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: the MC's for more than three decades. She still has 228 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 1: a picture of Mother Teresa in her office. I love 229 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: her to. 230 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 4: Death, and she is I consider I have certain saints 231 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 4: in heaven that I love and read about and call 232 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 4: out to and you know, ask for divine intervention many times. 233 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 5: She's one of them. 234 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: So it was weird for her when she was teaching 235 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: a religion class for kids and a Mother Teresa impersonator 236 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: came by. 237 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 4: She puts an outfit on that looks like Mother Teresa's outfit, 238 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 4: and then she like hangs laundry, and then she kind 239 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 4: of tells the story of Mother Teresa's life. I don't know, 240 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 4: it's really weird. It's just you look at her and 241 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 4: you're like, I can't even explain it. It's like, you 242 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 4: know what the demeanor of a Mother Teresa nun is. 243 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 4: You know what it looks like and what they do, 244 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 4: and really do you know? You know, you're sitting there 245 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 4: and you're like, Okay, that's not true. 246 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 3: That's not true. 247 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 4: You know what I mean. It's like they try to 248 00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 4: understand by her readings or her or things that have 249 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 4: written about her, but they really don't know, and so 250 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 4: it wasn't there. 251 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 2: That's all. 252 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 4: I was just saying, it's weird for me to watch 253 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 4: someone portray Mother Teresa. 254 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: Sue and Joan both knew Mother Teresa. It's a comfort 255 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: that they can talk about their time in the missionaries 256 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: of charity and they get it. It's part of what 257 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: makes them close. 258 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 4: There's not many people that understand the missionaries of charity, 259 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 4: and no matter how many times you try to explain it, 260 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 4: a lot of people look at you like you're weird 261 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 4: because of the penances that you did and didn't understand 262 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 4: where we were coming from when we did the penances. 263 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 4: So I don't share my I really do not share 264 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 4: my story because people can't relate. If you haven't had 265 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 4: the experience, you can't relate. 266 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: Mary Johnson doesn't usually tell people she was an EMC. 267 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: It's just easier not to go there. 268 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 2: Where it usually comes up, actually is people will ask 269 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 2: me where are you from? Because I still have a 270 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 2: slight accent in my voice, and I'll say, well, you know, 271 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 2: I was born in Michigan, kind of grew up in Texas. 272 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 2: I say, you don't sound like that, and then you 273 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 2: know I Eventually I get around to saying something very vague, like, well, 274 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 2: I lived for a number of years in an international 275 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 2: community where we all spoke English, but hardly anyone as 276 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 2: their first language, and I had to develop a way 277 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 2: of speaking so they could understand me with clear vowels 278 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 2: and clear consonants, and they'll look at me with this 279 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 2: big question mark on their faces. And sometimes I just 280 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 2: have to explain what I did with my life for 281 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 2: twenty years. And when I do, people who aren't Catholic, 282 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 2: they say, oh, what a wonderful thing to have done 283 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 2: with two decades of your life. And tell me about 284 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 2: mother Theresa, what was she really like? And nearly without 285 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 2: exception Catholics, they say, why did you leave? Because there 286 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 2: are some acceptable reasons for leaving and some that aren't. 287 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 6: I had so much shame. 288 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 1: Kelly Dunham, the former sister who's a stand up comic, 289 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: felt rejected like Jesus gave up on her offer. To 290 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: give her life to him, and now here she was 291 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: on the outside with no money. 292 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 6: And I really didn't have any skills. I didn't have 293 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 6: any more skills that were applicable to the American workplace. 294 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 6: Like I was twenty three, twenty four years old, and 295 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 6: I had almost a four year gap. 296 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 3: In employment history. 297 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 6: That was hard to explain, you know. And I remember 298 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 6: I had a composition notebook that had like all the 299 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 6: jobs I was applying to, and I'd cut out a 300 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 6: New Yorker cartoon and it was a guy doing a 301 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 6: job interview and he said, am I a team player? 302 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:42,360 Speaker 6: Are you kidding? I was in a cult? And I'd 303 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 6: crossed out cult and put convent. And that cartoon actually 304 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 6: helped me a lot, because I felt so alone. 305 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,199 Speaker 1: When she first left, she was embarrassed about leaving, but 306 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:58,679 Speaker 1: over time she feared being judged for joining in the 307 00:17:58,680 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: first place. 308 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:04,439 Speaker 6: Yeah, I was more closeted about it. I didn't know 309 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 6: anybody else who was an ex non. And then as 310 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 6: I started going to something called the Conference for Catholic Lesbians, 311 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 6: and that whole thing was full of. 312 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 1: Excenns Kelly was done to learn just how many lesbian 313 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 1: ex nouns there were. They had pool parties and prayed 314 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: the Rosary. 315 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 6: Which I thought was like such a great thing to 316 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 6: do at a pool party. And then at some point 317 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 6: everyone took off all the clothes and went swimming, and 318 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 6: I was like, this is great. 319 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:27,880 Speaker 1: This is way better than the combat. This is really great. 320 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 1: When Collette Livermore left the MCS and went home in Australia, 321 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 1: mother Teresa sent her letters asking her to come back. 322 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: She tucked little cards inside them. 323 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 5: Three times. She sent me a god depicting a crossed figure. 324 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 1: In the illustration, Jesus was covered in wounds and bleeding, 325 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: with his hands tied. 326 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 5: With her riding at the bottom, saying be the one. 327 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: But Collett didn't go back. Instead ed she pursued what 328 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 1: she dreamed of as a teenager, She went to medical school. 329 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 1: Most of her classmates were thirteen years younger than she was. 330 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: She says in med school she learned to think again, 331 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 1: to doubt, to analyze the evidence rather than to give 332 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: unquestioning assent to what she was told. But even as 333 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: her worldview shifted, she still felt the shadow of her 334 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: eleven years as an MC. In med school, she avoided 335 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 1: telling people she'd been a sister with Mother Teresa. They 336 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: treated her differently if they knew, and instead of volunteering 337 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,959 Speaker 1: for procedures, she'd find herself hanging back hoping she wouldn't 338 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: be selected. 339 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 5: My confidence was gone. I was very unassertive as well. 340 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 5: You know in classes, who've got all these young people 341 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 5: around you bringing with self confidence and they want to 342 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:46,679 Speaker 5: have a go. 343 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: As a doctor. For a while she worked in Northern 344 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: Australia and every week or two she'd fly two hundred 345 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,439 Speaker 1: and eighty miles on a mail carrier to a remote 346 00:19:55,440 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: settlement and treat the Aboriginal community there. Sometimes Kleet worked 347 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:04,199 Speaker 1: alongside MCS sisters. On a rare occasion, when Collette got 348 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: a chance to eat a meal with them, they asked 349 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 1: her why she left. She explained, and Collette found that 350 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 1: they too had experiences when superiors told them to refuse 351 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: health to the sick. She was relieved it validated her experience. 352 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: Collet's professional life was fulfilling. Her work as a doctor 353 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 1: was busy, and she got a chance to travel and 354 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: experience cultures that were new to her. Her life was full, 355 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: but the EMC imprint was there. 356 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 5: Well, I haven't married. I would have liked to have. 357 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 5: I was really really wanting to find a life partner, 358 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 5: but it just didn't happen. 359 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: Do you think the missionaries of charity had affected some 360 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 1: of that? Was it timing or also just kind of 361 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: it took a while to break out of that mindset, 362 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: do you think or Oh? 363 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 5: I think it was both. I know I did want 364 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 5: a partner and to have kids because the biological clock 365 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 5: was ticking, I had very poor self confidence. I mean, 366 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 5: lots of people leave the comment and find partners the 367 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 5: next day, so I don't know what it is with me. 368 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 5: That's what I used to want, But yeah, I didn't anyway, 369 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 5: and I'd get very sad and thinking everyone can find 370 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,640 Speaker 5: a partner except me, what's wrong with me? Blah blah 371 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 5: blah and so. But I got over that in a while. 372 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,679 Speaker 5: I thought, you know, if it happens, it happens. But 373 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:46,359 Speaker 5: never did. Oh, everybody gets lonely. Sometimes I'd get hope 374 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 5: from friendships, and I find hoping. You know, my nephews 375 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:57,440 Speaker 5: had a new little girl. She's beautiful. I've got great nieces, 376 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 5: and I find a lot of solace in nature, in 377 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 5: beautiful things. When I go bushwalking and seeing flowers and 378 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 5: beautiful vistas of the sea. All that makes me feel happy. 379 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 5: You get those moments where you're just there and it's everything. 380 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,959 Speaker 5: The most important thing is love. Everything you can do 381 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 5: to strengthen that is the most valuable thing. 382 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 2: I would have been happy to date there. Nobody was 383 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:43,439 Speaker 2: interested in me. I really stuck out in Southeast Texas. 384 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 2: You know. I wasn't really kind of dating material also 385 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:50,439 Speaker 2: in the beginning, and I was still trying to figure 386 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 2: things out. 387 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: For a while. Mary Johnson toyed with the idea of 388 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 1: starting her own community, one for women and men, open 389 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,120 Speaker 1: to many faiths, even those with no faith. It would 390 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: be only the good parts of the MCS, a life 391 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: focused on love and serving the poor. She ended up 392 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: working a number of different jobs. She ironed clothes, worked 393 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,159 Speaker 1: as a receptionist in a doctor's office, and as a 394 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: liturgical director at a church. She went back to college 395 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: and then went on to graduate school to study writing, 396 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: and that's where she met Luke. 397 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 2: And we just had an immediate connection. 398 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: About three years after she left the MCS, Mary was 399 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: at a ten day writing residency. On her first day, 400 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 1: she was overwhelmed and intimidated the people she met. Pontificated 401 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 1: about authors she'd never heard of. At lunch, a charming 402 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: but shy fellow residence sat opposite her. They started talking. 403 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: Luke was a doctor, but he was studying poetry. He'd 404 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: gotten frustrated with parts of being a physician, like dealing 405 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 1: with insurance companies, and he felt like studying poetry was 406 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 1: a way to restore his soul. 407 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 2: And I wouldn't even say that we were really dated. 408 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 2: It was this one week together. I went back to Texas, 409 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 2: and you know, within a couple of months he was 410 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 2: inviting me to move in, and that was it. 411 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 1: Mary says Luke was a good listener, creative, quirky, the 412 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: type of person who wants to keep growing, always improving 413 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: with time, getting deeper better. Somehow they could talk for hours. 414 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: Moving in with Luke for the first time put on 415 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: display how many habits from MC life were still a 416 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: part of Mary. She apologized constantly for things that didn't matter, 417 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: because that's what she did for twenty years. 418 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,880 Speaker 2: If you broke a plate as a missionary of charity, 419 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 2: you had to kneel down and kiss the floor and 420 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,919 Speaker 2: confess your fault for having busted displate. And so you know, 421 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 2: I was apologizing. I was asking permission for things that 422 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 2: nobody asks permission for. You know, it wouldn't be all 423 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 2: right if I uh have a cup of tea now, 424 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 2: you know, just ridiculous things. But it took a long 425 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 2: time for a lot of those things to fall away 426 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 2: for me. 427 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 1: Getting closer with Luke allowed her to process some of 428 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: her darker times with the MCS. She says he recognized 429 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 1: what she was struggling with, partly because of his past experience. 430 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: In college, he worked on a crisis intervention hotline. 431 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 2: And he had also been on a board of an 432 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:25,120 Speaker 2: abused women's shelter, so he was very familiar with the 433 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 2: cycle of women who get stuck in abusive relationships of 434 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 2: one sort or another. And I think he saw my 435 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,360 Speaker 2: relationship with the Church, with Mother Theresa, with Jesus as 436 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,719 Speaker 2: having a lot of those elements of abuse, and how 437 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 2: very often that abuse can be something that actually strengthens 438 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 2: the bond between the abuser and the abused, reinforcing feelings 439 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 2: of guilt, reinforcing an unequal power dynamic, holding you captive 440 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,919 Speaker 2: in one sense or another. So I think he understood 441 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 2: all of that even more clearly than I did. 442 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: Mary was racked with guilt for disappointing Mother Teresa, for 443 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 1: turning her back on her vows. In the convent, she 444 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,959 Speaker 1: had rituals that helped with the guilt, and she had 445 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: the discipline. Without those, it lingered, and she couldn't hide 446 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 1: it from Luke. 447 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 2: At one point, I was still feeling all this guilt 448 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 2: for all sorts of things. In one day, I said, 449 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,679 Speaker 2: beat me, beat me. And he knew about the discipline. 450 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 2: He had seen the callouses on my knees, he'd seen 451 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 2: the scars on my arm. He knew that history there, 452 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 2: and he helped me in his arms for a long time. 453 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 2: And I cried, And you know, it took a while 454 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 2: for the guilt to go away. It took a long while. 455 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: When Mary left the Missionaries of Charity, she often dreamt 456 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,399 Speaker 1: about the sisters she'd left behind. They weren't happy dreams. 457 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,199 Speaker 1: She'd be in a tunnel trying to run away, the 458 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: sisters chasing her. Or she'd be in a house with 459 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: the sisters and they'd block all the exits so she 460 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: couldn't get out. 461 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 2: When I wake from those dreams, I realized, there's this 462 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 2: icky residue still kind of stuck to me, and I 463 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 2: can't get rid of this goopy tari stuff that's clinging, 464 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 2: you know, to me metaphorically. 465 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: When she moved to Vermont to be with Luke, she 466 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: stopped going to church every week. She was still religious, 467 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: but things just didn't feel as sure as they used to. 468 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 2: I began to feel more and more that the church, 469 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 2: in many ways just wasn't making a lot of sense. 470 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 1: Now she had a chance to explore her own spirituality, 471 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 1: to reclaim faith for herself, to find a way to 472 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: relate to God without that relationship being mediated by rituals 473 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: and rules. It was liberating, but it was also confusing. 474 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 2: So it was just a couple of years after I'd 475 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,679 Speaker 2: left the Sisters, and I'd been through so many different changes. 476 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 2: I was trying to figure out, you know, do I 477 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 2: even believe in God anymore? I don't know. And it 478 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 2: was confusing because there'd been all these promises about how 479 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 2: God was going to take care of you and this 480 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 2: and that, and I don't know. It just didn't seem 481 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 2: to be happening exactly in the way that everything was 482 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 2: just so confusing. 483 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: She and Luke lived in an idyllic fire hose at 484 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: the end of a road with a forest behind it. 485 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: She went out on a walk one day. 486 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 2: I went up on this hill in the Green mountains, 487 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 2: overlooking a pond. 488 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,239 Speaker 1: She thought about this God that used to be her 489 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: best friend, who she talked to and saying to you 490 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: on the playground as a kid, the God who became 491 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 1: her spouse. 492 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 2: I just stood up and I shouted. I shouted, God, 493 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 2: if you're out there, I need to know. I really 494 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 2: need to know. Please tell me. Hey, listen, I need 495 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 2: to know. And there was no immediate revelation, but it 496 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 2: was just a gradual coming to own awareness that what 497 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 2: other people meant when they said God, that didn't seem 498 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 2: accurate from my perspective. 499 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: Eventually she became an atheist. She says, the stories about 500 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: God just don't ring true anymore. Physics and literature and 501 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: music they feel honest. She says, the mystery of the 502 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: universe is exciting. She's okay living with questions. 503 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 2: It just became very clear to me that reality was 504 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 2: a lot bigger than religion, and that any effort to 505 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 2: contain reality in a box or in a story was 506 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 2: doing a disservice. How much harm do we do by 507 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 2: pretending to know things that it's impossible to know? 508 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: But she still thinks love is at the center of 509 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 1: it all. 510 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 2: When you say love and is it a feeling or 511 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 2: is it an action? Is love something someone Will's? Love 512 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 2: is both a noun and a verb. For me, I 513 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 2: seek that verb love. I want to love. 514 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 1: In two thousand and seven, ten years after she left 515 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 1: the Missionaries of Charity and ten years after Mother Teresa's death, 516 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: Mary headed to Pennsylvania. She went to a conference marking 517 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: a decade since what they called Mother's entrance into heaven. 518 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: A number of Empsy priests and sisters would be there. 519 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: She might have a chance to talk to them. She 520 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: wanted to be around people who knew her in her 521 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: past life and people who loved Mother. She felt on 522 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: some level that celebrating that previous life might finally let 523 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: her leave it behind. During the conference, Mary attended a mass. 524 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: She slid into a pu near the back. She could 525 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 1: recognize some of the sisters from behind, their gestures a 526 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: telltale slump the way one leaned in. During prayer, the 527 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: Superior General of the MC Fathers gave the homily. He 528 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 1: talked about the growth of the MCS, that a thousand 529 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: sisters had joined in the past ten years. Mary thought 530 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: he didn't mention the sisters who left after Mass. She 531 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: watched a documentary about Mother Teresa ate in a room 532 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 1: where people sold Mother Teresa books, Mother Teresa Dulls, Mother 533 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 1: Teresa CDs medals. She wondered what Mother would think. The 534 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: next morning, during the final hymn of Mass, she hurried 535 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 1: to the front of the church. She approached the superior 536 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: general at the time, Sister Nermala. She recognized Mary Donata. 537 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: She said. Mary bowed her head for a blessing, but 538 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 1: Sister Nimala put her finger under Mary's chin. She shook 539 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 1: her head as if to say no, no blessing. When 540 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: the other sisters saw Mary, they greeted her with a 541 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 1: bit more warmth. 542 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 2: Initially it was like oh ster Dolna, and there was like, 543 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 2: oh no, can't say that, No Mary, Mary, right Mary. 544 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 2: It was it was confusing for them because they for them, 545 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 2: I was always Sister Donata. 546 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: Being called Donata felt good because it felt like she belonged. 547 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: For some reason, she still wanted so badly to belong 548 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: She hoped she could sneak in to have lunch with 549 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: the sisters, even though eating with outsiders is against the rules. 550 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 2: They ate in one place and I ate in another place, 551 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 2: and I didn't belong anymore. 552 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: At one point, she looked over the shoulders of a 553 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: huddle of nuns and spotted the person she wanted to 554 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: talk to you most, Sister Prema. 555 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 2: I'd always felt a certain affinities just to Prema. She 556 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 2: was a very loving person. In fact, the name Prema 557 00:33:58,440 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 2: means love. 558 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: When they were stationed together in Rome, Mary says Sister 559 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 1: Prema even called her her twin because Mary resembled Sister 560 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 1: Prema's actual sister. Sister Prema eventually went on to become 561 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: the Superior General, the head of the MC's, a position 562 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 1: she still holds today. Mary called Sister Prema's name, and 563 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 1: she eventually recognized Mary. She smiled and took both of 564 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 1: Mary's hands in hers. Sister Donata, she said. At that moment, 565 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: Sister Premo was motioned away. She told Mary find me later. 566 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 1: After a couple of talks, Mary was leaving the auditorium 567 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 1: when a sister tapped her on the shoulder, walk with us, 568 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:42,320 Speaker 1: Sister Prema wants to see you. When Sister Prema finally 569 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: talked to Mary, she told her she wished she could 570 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: invite her to lunch, but Mary knows the rules. 571 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 2: We were talking and at a certain point she turned 572 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 2: to me and she said, but you still love the sisters, 573 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,240 Speaker 2: don't you? I said, of course, I love the sisters. 574 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,320 Speaker 1: Had you heard that question from sisters before? 575 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 2: When I left? The sisters asked me one of them, 576 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 2: just a couple of days before I left, when everybody 577 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 2: knew I was going, my sister, will you still love us? 578 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 2: And I said yes. It's always very touching for me 579 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 2: because they knew that I loved them, and they knew 580 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,280 Speaker 2: that for them it was that was an important question. 581 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 2: I think it wasn't always obvious that people in authority 582 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,319 Speaker 2: and the missionaries of charity actually really cared for their 583 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 2: fellow sisters. It was a sorrow and a disappointment to 584 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 2: Mother Teresa as well. But the sisters had had felt 585 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 2: that for me. Otherwise they would never have asked that question, 586 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,280 Speaker 2: do you still love us? And that it was still 587 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:59,800 Speaker 2: important to them after so much time was very touching 588 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 2: to me. 589 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,919 Speaker 1: I've interviewed Mary for hours over many months. She says, 590 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: looking back at her story is strange. It's been a 591 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: long time, almost twenty five years since she left. She 592 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,799 Speaker 1: leads a totally different life now. She married Luke. She 593 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 1: taught creative writing and Italian. She officiates weddings as a humanist, 594 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 1: non religious celebrant. She wrote a book. She helped create 595 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:41,359 Speaker 1: a community and platform for female writers. In their free time, 596 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: she and Luke watch movies, go to film festivals. They bike, 597 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: they read, they garden, they talk. She says when she 598 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 1: looks back at that young woman in a sary, that 599 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:54,280 Speaker 1: Mary is a different person. 600 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 2: I do remember once when I was cleaning my office, 601 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,840 Speaker 2: I saw this box at the top of my bookcase, 602 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 2: and I didn't remember what was inside it. You know 603 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:13,799 Speaker 2: what's in that box? Why am I keeping that box 604 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:14,359 Speaker 2: way up there? 605 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 1: She took down the box and opened it, and she 606 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:19,400 Speaker 1: saw all of these things from her time as a 607 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:23,240 Speaker 1: missionary of charity. There's a scapular, which is a small 608 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:27,719 Speaker 1: wearable token that depicts Mother Mary holding Jesus. There was 609 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 1: a rosary made by an MC sister from seeds Miraculous metals, 610 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 1: Mother Teresa's hair in a plastic case, and then there 611 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:38,759 Speaker 1: was a cross the size of her hand with an 612 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 1: iron Jesus on it. The crucifix Mother Teresa wedged between 613 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 1: Mary's sorry and belt during her vows when Jesus became 614 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 1: Mary's spouse. She thought she'd wear this cross until she died. 615 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,439 Speaker 2: And when I saw this cross, and I hadn't seen 616 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,239 Speaker 2: a crucifix for a long time, it struck me in 617 00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:00,120 Speaker 2: such a completely different way than it had before. And 618 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:04,760 Speaker 2: it's like, this is a man being tortured to death, 619 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 2: and it struck me as a kind of a tragic thing. 620 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 1: For a while, Mary wrestled with her relationship with Mother Teresa. 621 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 1: It felt complicated. In therapy, she did the empty chair 622 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,239 Speaker 1: exercise to talk to her, so. 623 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 2: You like, pretend there's a person in the chair in 624 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 2: front of you and you talk to them. I did 625 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 2: that sort of thing. 626 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:37,200 Speaker 1: But nothing felt like closure. When she left the Missionaries 627 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,280 Speaker 1: of Charity, Mary received a lot of letters from sisters 628 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 1: telling her to come back. In one of them, a 629 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 1: sister included notes from a talk that an empty father 630 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 1: gave after Mother Teresa died. The pages are crinkled now. 631 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 1: The typewritten notes are cramped and tight up against the margins, 632 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:59,359 Speaker 1: not to waste paper the empty way. In this rough transcript, 633 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,319 Speaker 1: Priest described Mother Teresa at the end of her life 634 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:04,400 Speaker 1: in the months leading up to her. 635 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 2: Death, and in these notes it said that Mother was 636 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 2: walking the halls of mother house saying, no one loves Mother. 637 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:23,040 Speaker 2: In her own house. We loved her, but she didn't 638 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:26,880 Speaker 2: feel that all those rules that kept us so far 639 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,960 Speaker 2: from each other, and that we're never supposed to reveal 640 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,880 Speaker 2: ourselves really to each other. It's just all these wonderful 641 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,799 Speaker 2: women living in their own little cages of loneliness, and Mother, 642 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 2: at the end of her life, whom all the world 643 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:45,239 Speaker 2: loved and admired, is walking the halls saying, no one 644 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 2: loves me. I don't think that you have to be 645 00:39:53,800 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 2: lonely to serve God. 646 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,360 Speaker 1: There are so many images of Mother Teresa and Mary's memory, 647 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:18,200 Speaker 1: her toughness, her sharp eyes, Mother's firm hand on her 648 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:21,560 Speaker 1: head for a blessing, when Mother pressed a crucifix against 649 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,080 Speaker 1: her lips when she was just an aspirant, when they 650 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:26,319 Speaker 1: traveled to Sweden together and shared a room with two 651 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:30,160 Speaker 1: twin beds, Mother hitting the desk in their last conversation 652 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,799 Speaker 1: as she pleaded with Mary to talk to mother, tell Mother, 653 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,959 Speaker 1: explain to Mother why she wanted to leave, how Mary 654 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 1: refused Mother's disappointment. Mary dreamt about Mother Teresa for a 655 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:50,240 Speaker 1: few years after she left the MC's. Those dreams weren't nightmares, 656 00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:55,360 Speaker 1: they were calm. The last one she remembers, Mary was 657 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,960 Speaker 1: lying in her own bed. Mother Teresa walked in and 658 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 1: without saying anything, she went to the bed and lay 659 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:05,120 Speaker 1: down next to Mary in this sweet way. They were 660 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 1: side by side, just close to each other. 661 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,360 Speaker 2: I don't remember that she said anything, but there was 662 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 2: this feeling that she understood me. She wasn't mad at 663 00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:18,840 Speaker 2: me anymore. 664 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:38,200 Speaker 1: One thing that's helped Mary talk about her past is 665 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,880 Speaker 1: something her husband, Luke said. He told her just remember 666 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:46,200 Speaker 1: it's a love story. I agree. But love comes in 667 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:50,120 Speaker 1: many forms, and some aren't healthy. I've learned that in 668 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: my own life, and I've learned it from this story. 669 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,640 Speaker 1: Sometimes I think about all of the hurt I've heard 670 00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:00,239 Speaker 1: about from these former missionaries of Charity sisters who gave 671 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:04,640 Speaker 1: everything of themselves and suffered in the process. Love to 672 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 1: be real has to hurt. Mother Teresa used to say, 673 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:12,040 Speaker 1: maybe love hurts, but it's usually a side effect, not 674 00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:16,000 Speaker 1: a goal. I don't think sacrificing people for the sake 675 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:19,200 Speaker 1: of a mission is right, no matter how much love 676 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 1: they feel. I'm grateful to the former sisters who shared 677 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,960 Speaker 1: their stories, but it hasn't been easy for them. Hurt 678 00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,440 Speaker 1: was part of the telling too, but they shared their 679 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,680 Speaker 1: stories because it felt worth it. I think it's worth 680 00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:35,680 Speaker 1: it to look at why we put people on pedestals 681 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,320 Speaker 1: and what can happen when we assume someone in power 682 00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:43,160 Speaker 1: is perfect. You could say a series like this is 683 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,640 Speaker 1: digging up old dirt, and maybe it is, but you 684 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:48,799 Speaker 1: can also hear it as a story from people who 685 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,160 Speaker 1: are just as important as Mother Teresa, just as human 686 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:56,879 Speaker 1: and just as valuable, who should also be heard. It's 687 00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,880 Speaker 1: not easy to figure out exactly what's right when beliefs 688 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:04,359 Speaker 1: and God are involved, but it's worth talking about. It's 689 00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:08,279 Speaker 1: worth listening to you if you ask me, that's love. 690 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,279 Speaker 1: The Turning is written by Alan lance Lesser and Me. 691 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,120 Speaker 1: Our producers are Allen lance Lesser and Emily Foreman. Our 692 00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:22,120 Speaker 1: editor is Rob Rosenthal Andrea Asoahe is our digital producer. 693 00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:26,759 Speaker 1: Fact checking by Andrea Lopez Crusado. So many thanks to 694 00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:29,480 Speaker 1: all of the people who helped with this project, including 695 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:34,320 Speaker 1: Liz Mack, Emily Kwang, Jazmina Aguilera, Morgan Gibbons, Daniel Giemett, 696 00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:39,840 Speaker 1: Ann Bryce Strikant, Joshi Ivan Suarez, Susan Bryer, Susan Fields, 697 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:44,920 Speaker 1: Jay Bostik, Elizabeth Gavitt, Chevy Such, Dave, Jacob Silber, Gretchen Gavitt, 698 00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:48,520 Speaker 1: and Andrew Lesser and the whole wonderful team at Rococo 699 00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:51,960 Speaker 1: Punch at iHeartRadio for their support. Special thanks to the 700 00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:56,360 Speaker 1: team at Type Investigations and Catherine Joyce, Amy Gaines, Sarah Olander, 701 00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:01,920 Speaker 1: Maron Frishkoff, Bethan Macaluso, Mangesh Hatiker, Christine Ragassa, Jen Powers, 702 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:07,160 Speaker 1: Travis Dunlap, Andrew Kenward, Brianna Hill, Simon Pullman, Sarah Gates, 703 00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:12,120 Speaker 1: Alison Kantor, Nikki Etoor, Holly Dcam, Dan Conaway, and consulting 704 00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:15,560 Speaker 1: producer Mary Johnson. Her memoir and A Quenchable Thirst provided 705 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:19,800 Speaker 1: inspiration for this series. Our executive producers are Jessica Albert 706 00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:23,799 Speaker 1: and John Ferrati at Rococo Punch and Katrina Norvell at iHeartRadio. 707 00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:26,680 Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Matt Reid. For photos and 708 00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,399 Speaker 1: more details on this series, follow us on Instagram at 709 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,520 Speaker 1: Rococo Punch. You can reach out via email too The 710 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:37,080 Speaker 1: Turning at Rococo Punch dot Com, him Erica Lance. Thanks 711 00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:37,600 Speaker 1: for listening.