Speaker 1: The Dream Team Tapes Season two, Kobe Lebron and the
Speaker 1: redeem Team is a production of Diversion Podcasts, an association
Speaker 1: with I Heart Radio Diversion Podcasts. Welcome to episode two
Speaker 1: of The Dream Team Tapes Season two, Kobe Lebron and
Speaker 1: the Redeemed Team. We're calling this Kobe's first Quarter. And
Speaker 1: as you listen to the details and descriptions of the
Speaker 1: ups and downs of Kobe Bryant's first eight seasons in
Speaker 1: the NBA, keep in mind that all of this transpires
Speaker 1: through the time he was aged twenty five years old.
Speaker 1: Quarter of a century. That's it. I'm j A. Dande
Speaker 1: and I got an up close look at the Kobe
Speaker 1: show while covering the Lakers for ten years at the
Speaker 1: l A Times and ten years at ESPN. And I'm
Speaker 1: joined by Jack McCallum, who made plenty of trips to
Speaker 1: l A when a chronicle of the NBA for Sports Illustrated.
Speaker 1: And Jack, I'm wondering, did you ever come to l
Speaker 1: A with one story in mind only to have Kobe
Speaker 1: take it over? I'll tell you what most prominently it
Speaker 1: was during a strange summer of two thousand three, which
Speaker 1: you're going to be concentrating on If you recall, the
Speaker 1: same weekend that the news about Kobe's alleged sexual assault
Speaker 1: in Colorado broke, was the same weekend that the Lakers
Speaker 1: were proclaiming they had the new super team of the century.
Speaker 1: They had acquired Carl Malone and Gary the Glove Peyton
Speaker 1: to go with a you know, already great lineup with
Speaker 1: Kobe and Shack. And that week I had arranged to
Speaker 1: fly out with Carl Malone. He had hired a private
Speaker 1: plane to take him to l A. When I got
Speaker 1: to the small town where he was hiding out, Jim Hill,
Speaker 1: by the way, the great l A sportscaster, were there,
Speaker 1: and it looked like, Hey, this is gonna be a
Speaker 1: great story about a super team. And next thing, you know,
Speaker 1: the Kobe Bryant news that happened in Colorado had broke.
Speaker 1: I never did get to use the stuff from the
Speaker 1: Carl Malone plane ride. Yeah, that was probably the the
Speaker 1: ultimate example while Kobe was alive, of him just taking
Speaker 1: over and dominating the news. It would happen all the time. Though.
Speaker 1: I went up to cover the NFC Championship in two
Speaker 1: thousand six up in Seattle, and usually the NFL's Championship Sunday,
Speaker 1: right the two conference championship games is the big story. Loan,
Speaker 1: Behold what happens? Kobe drops eighty one points on the
Speaker 1: Toronto Raptors and sort of takes over that storyline as well.
Speaker 1: It would happen again and again where Kobe would just
Speaker 1: come and and dominate the news and Jack even in
Speaker 1: the after lafe he could dominate the news. Following the
Speaker 1: tragic helicopter crash in January, Kobe Bryant dominated All Star
Speaker 1: Game in Chicago, and he even took over what should
Speaker 1: have been a tribute to David Stern right he had
Speaker 1: passed away on January one, and All Star Weekend was
Speaker 1: really his creation. Under his tenure as a commissioner of
Speaker 1: the NBA went from just one game to this weekend
Speaker 1: filled with events and parties and all that, and it
Speaker 1: became the Kobe Show of Kobe celebration. All the players
Speaker 1: wore Kobe's twenty four or his daughter Gianna's number two
Speaker 1: in their jerseys during the game. He actually provided the
Speaker 1: news in Adam Silver's news conference, we are renaming our
Speaker 1: All Star m v P Trophy the Kobe Bryant m
Speaker 1: v P Award. Along those lines, Kobe has really taken
Speaker 1: over this entire episode, and that wasn't the original plan,
Speaker 1: as we outlined the ark of this series, but really
Speaker 1: the accelerant in that shift was our interview with Phil Jackson,
Speaker 1: who was Kobe's coach from Ton with a notable one
Speaker 1: year break in the two thousand four oh five season.
Speaker 1: And Jack when we talked to Phil, he just really
Speaker 1: took us through this incredible journey of his time together
Speaker 1: with Kobe. He could be a little elusive, but when
Speaker 1: you got him, it was never predictable. You know, he
Speaker 1: never took you out on what you Hey, a lot
Speaker 1: of times you go in interview with somebody and I'm
Speaker 1: collecting the quotes to support what my thesis is. And
Speaker 1: there's guys that are really good at doing that. You
Speaker 1: know what they're gonna say, but they're still really great
Speaker 1: at saying it. But Phil always did something that set
Speaker 1: you off on another path. And you know, I think
Speaker 1: it's pretty obvious that when Kobe died, as was the
Speaker 1: case with many people, but certainly Phil as much as
Speaker 1: anybody you know, really started deeply thinking about these times
Speaker 1: with Kobe and some of the things he said to
Speaker 1: us were among the best. You know, I've been doing
Speaker 1: this for fifty years, and uh, it was really some
Speaker 1: of the best stuff that I had ever heard a
Speaker 1: coach talking about a player. Yeah, at the end of
Speaker 1: our time with him, we asked him to summarize his
Speaker 1: relationship with Kobe, and he made it sound like something
Speaker 1: from a work of literature. Here he is, well, I
Speaker 1: think it's it's almost like a prodigal son story. And
Speaker 1: there we go into father elimination illustration that you know,
Speaker 1: there's a conflict, and there's wilfulness, and there's selfishness, and
Speaker 1: there's um, I can do this on my own type
Speaker 1: of thing, and then there's you know, the second life
Speaker 1: or second opportunity that really brings back tenderness, yielding. You know,
Speaker 1: it took two of us to have that complicated relationship
Speaker 1: early on, you know, trying to both be wilful or directed,
Speaker 1: and his was to establish himself and his identity, and
Speaker 1: me to establish what a team had to do to
Speaker 1: win and the direction that teams have to have to
Speaker 1: have this unselfish behavior and bending that will I think
Speaker 1: was done. You know, sometimes in you know, in usual ways,
Speaker 1: like one time coming to the facility and I had
Speaker 1: a place that I parking spot that was designated mine
Speaker 1: and there was Kobe's car in my parking spot. You know,
Speaker 1: things like that, just you know, know that he was
Speaker 1: gonna entertain me and me not reacting to it at all,
Speaker 1: you know, just going on about the day, you know,
Speaker 1: not taking on bridge at anything. And so we forged
Speaker 1: something that was harmonious and that that was one of
Speaker 1: the joys of our life. And you know, my former
Speaker 1: repel and partner Jamie Buss, says that, you know, we
Speaker 1: raised him as a son of our own, So I
Speaker 1: guess there's something in that together. So you can see
Speaker 1: why we had to clear the way for this, much
Speaker 1: like Kobe isolating on the wings so he could go
Speaker 1: one on one. Although I'd say Kobe's ability to steal
Speaker 1: the spotlight also as part of the Lakers and the
Speaker 1: way they steal the spotlight, there's something about that franchise.
Speaker 1: And a great example as we get back to the
Speaker 1: context of USA Basketball came in the Olympics, and USA
Speaker 1: Basketball executive Sean Ford told us that when they first
Speaker 1: got to Georgia ahead of the Olympic Games and they
Speaker 1: get to the hotel els around midnight and they credentialed
Speaker 1: everyone on the team and then the traveling party and
Speaker 1: then he's told at two am that he has to
Speaker 1: drive Shaquille O'Neil to the Weston Hotel and he didn't
Speaker 1: ask why, and then drive through Atlanta and he gets
Speaker 1: to the West End. As as they're pulling up, he
Speaker 1: discovered the reason. Get out and Jerry West is waiting
Speaker 1: for him at the Lakers and uh he was that
Speaker 1: That's when he signed his contract with the Lakers. So Jack,
Speaker 1: if you remember that free agent signing when Shack left
Speaker 1: the Orlando Magic, it oversattled the start of the Olympics. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: I mean it did, as you said, overshadow the games.
Speaker 1: But that's kind of understandable. Shack was at the height
Speaker 1: of his powers back then and Jerry West signing of him.
Speaker 1: You know, I talked to Jerry how many years after
Speaker 1: that is now, you know, twenty five years later, with
Speaker 1: however many signings Jerry has done, including you know, drafting Kobe,
Speaker 1: he still gets excited when he when he talks about
Speaker 1: that Shack signing. It's very It's really an interesting phenomenon.
Speaker 1: Remember at the time he compared it to the bird
Speaker 1: to his children, and it was that monumental an event
Speaker 1: for him. And what we didn't realize though, was that
Speaker 1: he was equally as excited about his Draft day trade
Speaker 1: for Kobe Bryant, And initially I don't think we gave
Speaker 1: that enough attention. There was still there was curiosity about Kobe. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, high school players going straight to the NBA
Speaker 1: was was still a novelty. The year before, Chemi Garnett
Speaker 1: had become the first player to skip straight to the
Speaker 1: pros and twenty years and with Kobe was the first
Speaker 1: time that a guard had done it, So there was
Speaker 1: that new aspect of it. And I went up to
Speaker 1: the Lakers first road game of the season. I was
Speaker 1: working in washing d C at the time. It took
Speaker 1: the train up to Penn Station in New York City
Speaker 1: and went up stairs and Madison Square Garden, and there
Speaker 1: was so much demand for young Kobe and one of
Speaker 1: his first games as a pro, that they actually did
Speaker 1: a separate press conference for him before their game against
Speaker 1: the Knicks. You know, back then, obviously people knew about Kobe.
Speaker 1: Clips were not passed back virally back and forth. I
Speaker 1: don't remember, maybe you do, but I don't remember a
Speaker 1: thousand Kobe clips at you know, Lower Merion High School
Speaker 1: being passed back and forth. Now in the next episode,
Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about Lebron. By that time, it
Speaker 1: was different. You know, eight years later, everybody who was
Speaker 1: a basketball fan had seen Lebron, and Kobe really didn't
Speaker 1: play in any of these as I recall any of
Speaker 1: these super games, you know, I get matched like Lebron
Speaker 1: events Carmelo and stuff like that. So Kobe, as you said,
Speaker 1: was still still a little bit of a secret. I
Speaker 1: mean not not a full secret, but a little bit. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And we we talked to Eric Aldridge, who was the
Speaker 1: Lakers assistant PR director at the time. He was actually
Speaker 1: the guy that picked up Kobe at the airport to
Speaker 1: drive into his now legendary pre jaft workout with the
Speaker 1: Lakers at the inglewood Y m c A. And he
Speaker 1: he spoke on that aspect. Jack, A big part of
Speaker 1: the mystique of Kobe was we didn't really know who
Speaker 1: he was. I mean again, this was pre social media.
Speaker 1: It was a lot of word of mouth. But once
Speaker 1: the Laker fans got to see Kobe for themselves, starting
Speaker 1: in the Summer League game and then early with this
Speaker 1: time with the Lakers, they really formed a quick bond.
Speaker 1: As authors noticed, Well, I think from my perspective, what
Speaker 1: I saw was, you know, people love your watching brilliance.
Speaker 1: If you think about you know, Tiger Woods, you think
Speaker 1: about athletes who were so good so young, and then
Speaker 1: you you're watching it unfold in front of your eyes.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's almost like watching your own kid. You know,
Speaker 1: you you see it, you see the potential, but he's
Speaker 1: not there yet. It was clear that he wasn't there yet,
Speaker 1: but you could see it. But not only could you
Speaker 1: see it, you can see him working towards it. And
Speaker 1: I think that's the thing that connected him with the
Speaker 1: fan base. And then Robert Dory was traded to the
Speaker 1: Lakers during Kobe's rookie season, and from his first practice
Speaker 1: with the team, he noticed that Kobe was working towards
Speaker 1: it even when the fans and the TV cameras weren't around.
Speaker 1: I remember Cole was just like, everybody's going like a
Speaker 1: third of a speed and Kobe's going one hund and
Speaker 1: shoot around, Like does this guy know this is a
Speaker 1: shoot around? And he was like, you know, I gotta
Speaker 1: go hard because I'm trying to start I'm like, dude,
Speaker 1: it shoot around, nobody goes hard. And he just had
Speaker 1: all his energy and I said, that's that's an eighteen
Speaker 1: year old for you. You You know, that's you're gonna have
Speaker 1: all that energy. And when you wait waited this age
Speaker 1: m game, grinding hits, you're gonna slow down. And it
Speaker 1: was just one of those things. He was just trying
Speaker 1: to learn the game. And he was just one of
Speaker 1: those guys that was in the gym constantly trying to
Speaker 1: get better. I mean every play he was going hard.
Speaker 1: So Kobe had his formula for greatness on the court,
Speaker 1: but he didn't have a pathway to bonding with his teammates.
Speaker 1: And part of it was the age gap. Kobe was
Speaker 1: born in ninety eight. The next youngest player on the
Speaker 1: team was born in nineteen seventy four. And put it
Speaker 1: this way, how much time did you spend hanging out
Speaker 1: with seniors during your freshman year in college? And of
Speaker 1: course Kobe never had any of that college experience. You know,
Speaker 1: that transition time when you're away from home, every's an
Speaker 1: equal footing. You're in the dorms, you're sharing sleeping quarters
Speaker 1: with the roommate. You've all got this community bathroom, down
Speaker 1: the down the hall, and its altres put it. He
Speaker 1: just didn't have those social skills built up yet. So
Speaker 1: altre also members of time. Early in Kobe's career, when
Speaker 1: he and some of the players went to a TGI
Speaker 1: Fridays after a preseason game in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and
Speaker 1: Kobe walks in the restaurant. He didn't even join them
Speaker 1: at first. That was a rookie faux pa. And when
Speaker 1: he finally came over, he's astounded that the players are drinking,
Speaker 1: Like he couldn't believe they had a game to play
Speaker 1: the next night and they're drinking alcohol. And Robert Rory
Speaker 1: was one of the players at the table and he
Speaker 1: recalled that night it was all about bonding, And I
Speaker 1: think he didn't understand that it's it's about coming together
Speaker 1: and bonding, because if you think about it, it was
Speaker 1: I always believe that it was a disconnect because you're
Speaker 1: just eight year old. What do you have in common
Speaker 1: with the a t O in twenty just probably video
Speaker 1: games at the time video games were like the level
Speaker 1: they r now. Um, So it was it was a
Speaker 1: disconnect them. And and I think when he turned twenty one,
Speaker 1: he was like, okay, I'm a part of crewing them.
Speaker 1: But to disconnect was did the wall. I should say
Speaker 1: it was up so hard. It was kind of to reconnect.
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more Kobe, Lebron and the redeem
Speaker 1: team after this. So then in there's a huge new
Speaker 1: personality added to the mix, Bill Jackson. There had been
Speaker 1: a series of playoff disappointments with the Lakers and that
Speaker 1: led to the firing coach Del Harris, and then the
Speaker 1: Lakers didn't think his replacement, Kurt Rambis was up to
Speaker 1: the task, and Phil Jackson was available. The reason why
Speaker 1: I was covered pretty extensively in the last Dance and
Speaker 1: the Lakers signed filled with a five year, thirty million
Speaker 1: dollar contract and jack that was really big bucks for
Speaker 1: a coach at the time. It was sort of a
Speaker 1: little version of what had happened in Chicago. Jordan was
Speaker 1: very very close to Doug Collins. He had gotten them
Speaker 1: to a certain point, and you know, you don't know
Speaker 1: whether Phil is back there studying the situation and going okay,
Speaker 1: I think it's time, you know. And it's obviously a
Speaker 1: combination of taking over a team when they're ready to mature.
Speaker 1: I don't think there's any doubt about that. But it's
Speaker 1: also Phil's got a little bit of a magic touch
Speaker 1: that he was able to add and next thing, you know,
Speaker 1: three titles in a row. Yeah, and Phil, when he
Speaker 1: took over in Chicago, A he was coming from inside.
Speaker 1: He wasn't coming from the outside. But the advantage he
Speaker 1: had when he came to the Lakers was that he
Speaker 1: was minted with six championships, and so they had to
Speaker 1: respect him. He commanded their respect, and I think in
Speaker 1: part it was a message to the star players that
Speaker 1: they had to get serious or they could be the
Speaker 1: ones out the next time. And they responded. As Robert
Speaker 1: Ori noted from the first DAID training camp, when they
Speaker 1: get there and he sees that Kobe's bulked up and
Speaker 1: shock and slimmed down. It's almost like they were skin
Speaker 1: of field and they got in the best shape of
Speaker 1: their lives. They were looking good, and they were like, oh,
Speaker 1: we gotta be ready for his upcoming season. And so
Speaker 1: Kobe was so eager to learn from Phil Jackson, his idol,
Speaker 1: Michael Jordan's coach, that he went to meet with Phil
Speaker 1: before his introductory press conference at the Beverly Hilton Hotel. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: Shack cross passed with Phil that summer at Jackson's getaway
Speaker 1: cabin in Montana. He was riding around the bay on
Speaker 1: some jet skis that he had borrowed from neighbors. As
Speaker 1: far as you could see, people were standing out on
Speaker 1: their docks and looking at him. And he'd been jumping
Speaker 1: on the trampoline that was in my yard, and my
Speaker 1: neighbors kept seeing this figure show up above the boat
Speaker 1: house and Jack was jumping on the trampoline, and then
Speaker 1: he went off to the dock and he did he
Speaker 1: dove in the dock, and then he borrowed some jet
Speaker 1: skis and went around. So the big, fun loving guy,
Speaker 1: you know, was somebody I knew already. And in that
Speaker 1: story you can hear the affection for Shock and Phil's voice.
Speaker 1: And he was also intrigued by the chance to coach
Speaker 1: a dominant center, and that was the one element he
Speaker 1: didn't have with the Chicago teams. And so acts and
Speaker 1: made Shack the focal point of the offense. But Kobe
Speaker 1: didn't always follow the plan. He would just go rogue,
Speaker 1: and I pulled him the sideline and saying it's not
Speaker 1: the time to try and take over the game. Yet, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll get back to it, and he go back and
Speaker 1: run the offense for a little bit. But you know,
Speaker 1: everything was predicated to going through Shack a lot at
Speaker 1: that time, because that's what I said, that's what we're
Speaker 1: gonna do. So how we're gonna attack this team and
Speaker 1: this game. And uh, you know, Kobe got tired of
Speaker 1: doing that. But Kobe was capable of playing and of
Speaker 1: working alongside Shack. And there's three championship banners and Staples
Speaker 1: Center to prove it. When Kobe and Shack joined forces
Speaker 1: at the top, their combined powers were unbeatable. And what's
Speaker 1: interesting to me is that Phil Jackson singled out the
Speaker 1: same moment that I always referenced as the display of
Speaker 1: Kobe and Shack at their collaborative best, and it's to
Speaker 1: play near the end of Game seven and the two
Speaker 1: thousand Western Conference Finals, when Kobe crossed up Scottie Pippen.
Speaker 1: Then he threw a lob to Shack and that's the
Speaker 1: one that finished off the comeback against the Portland Trail
Speaker 1: Blazers and it sent them on to the NBA Finals.
Speaker 1: I think it was solidified when jack understood that Kobe
Speaker 1: knew how to win what was necessary to win, and
Speaker 1: was able to do the things that created the winds,
Speaker 1: and that he would give up the ball at the
Speaker 1: right time to create this. Well, the demonstrating moments was
Speaker 1: that dunk against Portland in the game the seventh game
Speaker 1: of that series, when you know, all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: you know, there was a movement which everybody was expecting
Speaker 1: Kobe to make some kind of a shot or whatever,
Speaker 1: and he just put the ball up there for Shock
Speaker 1: to to ram it down through the hoop. And I
Speaker 1: think that was really a moment that kind of solidified everything,
Speaker 1: and they kind of understood then that they were gonna
Speaker 1: do whatever it took to win. It felt like the
Speaker 1: Lakers would keep winning championships for the foreseeable future. Jack
Speaker 1: was Kobe. This was his version of college graduation, and
Speaker 1: that was an element that the Lakers, who had pretty
Speaker 1: much stayed set for throughout their three championships, and they
Speaker 1: just weren't ready for that element, and and losing that,
Speaker 1: of course, uh led to that drastic change that you
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier when they brought in Gary Payton and Karl
Speaker 1: Malone and they said, okay, we need to upgrade, and
Speaker 1: they majorly upgraded. But meanwhile, the mileage of all those
Speaker 1: deep playoff runs had had really worn down Kobe's knee,
Speaker 1: and unbeknownst to the Lakers, he went to Eagle, Colorado
Speaker 1: to get surgery. He just did it out of the blue.
Speaker 1: The club was totally surprised at the incident and everything
Speaker 1: and all hell broke loose after that. And while he
Speaker 1: was in Colorado, Kobe had a sexual encounter with the
Speaker 1: hotel employee and she later accused him of sexual assault,
Speaker 1: and all that led to the most surreal press conference
Speaker 1: I've ever attended, and it featured Kobe, his wife Vanessa,
Speaker 1: and his attorney, Pamela Mackie, who was voice so here
Speaker 1: first from in the clip from that day, Toby Bryant
Speaker 1: is innocent of the charges that were filed at as
Speaker 1: him today, I'm innacent. I didn't force her to do
Speaker 1: anything against her will. I'm innocent. In that case just
Speaker 1: loomed over the whole season, even despite the additions of
Speaker 1: those two future Hall of Fame players, and it also
Speaker 1: increased the tension between Shaq and Kobe. Shack had learned
Speaker 1: that Kobe brought Shack's name into the statement that he
Speaker 1: gave police and one thing it did was create even
Speaker 1: more distance between Phil and Kobe. And at the time
Speaker 1: that Kobe probably could have used more support and advice,
Speaker 1: Phil's approach was to give Kobe more space. And Phil
Speaker 1: just didn't know what to make of Kobe's presence on
Speaker 1: the team. He just felt the anger emanating out of
Speaker 1: his being. I don't know who. He's angry at himself,
Speaker 1: He's angry at the situation, He's angry at the public exposure.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of things. I never felt really comfortable
Speaker 1: with it, and I just decided to be hands off
Speaker 1: and situation. It felt like a personal upfront to me
Speaker 1: to keep in mind all the other things that play.
Speaker 1: Bill Jackson was in the last year of his contract.
Speaker 1: He was trying to get an extension. Shack had another
Speaker 1: year left on his contract, but he wanted an extension,
Speaker 1: and Kobe this was the key could become a free
Speaker 1: agent after the season, and for the first time he
Speaker 1: was in a position to flex his leverage. And I
Speaker 1: don't know if Kobe ever gave Lakers owner Jerry Buss
Speaker 1: an ultimatum that he would leave unless Bus got rid
Speaker 1: of Shock and Phil, But I do know I can't
Speaker 1: explain how. But trust me, I do know that Bus
Speaker 1: really didn't think Jackson should keep coaching that team. And
Speaker 1: he also realized that he couldn't keep both Shack and Kobe,
Speaker 1: that one of them was going to have to go.
Speaker 1: They couldn't co exist any longer. That was his mindset.
Speaker 1: I don't know the extent that Kobe influenced, but I'm
Speaker 1: really confident that that was Jerry Buss's mentality at the time.
Speaker 1: I'm interested. You were out there, and uh, I always
Speaker 1: have this this theory, and when you say something is
Speaker 1: the theory, that means it doesn't have to be correct it.
Speaker 1: I always thought that it had to be like somebody's team,
Speaker 1: not not two guys team, you know, it had to
Speaker 1: be one guy's team. And it always was fascinating to
Speaker 1: me because Shaq was such a dominant figure. And maybe
Speaker 1: it's just because I knew him better. I had worked
Speaker 1: on a book with him on in his rookie year,
Speaker 1: and I kind of, like, you know, knew I could
Speaker 1: always gravitate to him. He as you said, he was
Speaker 1: a dominant player. They were still using, you know, feed
Speaker 1: the post type of situation and the triangle utilize the
Speaker 1: post person so Shack was dominant on the court. But
Speaker 1: and you alluded to this, I think there there seemed
Speaker 1: to be in l A the affection between Kobe and
Speaker 1: the fans seemed to go beyond what the affection was
Speaker 1: for Shock and the fans, which is interesting to me
Speaker 1: because it's a showman's town and now Kobe was a
Speaker 1: showman too, But my god, Shack. So how do you
Speaker 1: kind of explain a whose team it was and be
Speaker 1: the the incredible affection Kobe had with those Hollywood fans.
Speaker 1: Part of it goes back to the old world Chamberlain line, right, Jack,
Speaker 1: nobody roots for Goliath. And even though Shack was as
Speaker 1: warm and engaging a big man as we've ever seen,
Speaker 1: and the Lakers had a tradition and a rich legacy
Speaker 1: of big men going back to George, Mike and and
Speaker 1: Wilt and Kareem, but those guys were never the favorites, right.
Speaker 1: Jerry West and Elton Baylair were fan favorites over Wilt's
Speaker 1: Magic was the fan favorite over Kareem. The Laker fans
Speaker 1: never really bonded with Kareem the way they did with Magic,
Speaker 1: And I think, just again it's part of it. There's
Speaker 1: something more relatable. Why is Steph Curry so popular, right,
Speaker 1: because he's closer in size to the average fan. And Kobe,
Speaker 1: even though he's tall, wasn't a behemoth like Shack And
Speaker 1: that was part of it. And you wonder if part
Speaker 1: of it also is that the only uniform that Kobe
Speaker 1: ever wore was the Lakers were me Maybe he wore
Speaker 1: that Charlotte Hornet's cap on Draft night, but you know,
Speaker 1: from the time he played his first game, he was
Speaker 1: in a Lake uniform where Shaq came from the Magic
Speaker 1: and then of course later played on several teams after
Speaker 1: he left the Lakers, So that there's there are all
Speaker 1: those factors. And I'm guessing after the sexual assault charge,
Speaker 1: Kobe became a more complicated figure, a figure of redemption.
Speaker 1: So he became a character that people understand in Hollywood
Speaker 1: when they're pitching a movie. People understand that, but Check
Speaker 1: never really had something like that. Yeah, if anything, that experienced,
Speaker 1: that ordeal of the sexual assault case bonded Kobe with
Speaker 1: the fans even more and and they zealously defended him
Speaker 1: from the get go. And you know, he he never
Speaker 1: lost the crowd. It it it never cost him his
Speaker 1: standing with the Laker fans. You're listening to Kobe Lebron
Speaker 1: and the redeem Team. We'll be back in just a moment.
Speaker 1: I remember that press conference, by the way, Jake, because
Speaker 1: as I said before, I was supposed to be writing
Speaker 1: the the the Wonderful, Feel Good Gary Payton, Carl Malone
Speaker 1: joined up for the super Team. And there was this
Speaker 1: guy next to me, and uh, he goes, uh, where
Speaker 1: are you from? I said, I'm from Sports Illustrated. He
Speaker 1: was not impressed. He went up from Celebrity Justice. So
Speaker 1: apparently there was a thing I don't know, maybe it
Speaker 1: still exists called Celebrity Justice. And I went, oh, ship man,
Speaker 1: we're in a different world here it was, and that
Speaker 1: that season it was it was Access Hollywood and and
Speaker 1: E and and it just became this whole other thing.
Speaker 1: And that press conference it felt like a movie, just
Speaker 1: because I never thought I would be there for something
Speaker 1: like that. For Kobe Riots, it was an outlandist that
Speaker 1: an athlete could find himself in his circumstance. But but
Speaker 1: Kobe Bryant, it just it seemed unfathomable that he would
Speaker 1: stand before is accused of sexual assault and you and
Speaker 1: you have the problem of how to. I don't want
Speaker 1: to use the word spin because that's not what you're doing.
Speaker 1: But when you write a story or when you're broadcasting,
Speaker 1: you were writing, were you still writing back then? Or yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm writing. I covered every almost every game of
Speaker 1: that season for the l a time. You have to
Speaker 1: figure out, you know, which way you're kind of shading it?
Speaker 1: Do you express utter disbelief? Um? The one thing you
Speaker 1: cannot do is, you know, begin casting as some people do,
Speaker 1: you know, begin casting aspersions on the accuser. Uh, you
Speaker 1: know right away. And it's a very you know, it's
Speaker 1: a very difficult story to write, and to this day
Speaker 1: it be you know it. It is a very difficult
Speaker 1: thing to deal with and of a no win situation.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a woman who worked at Sports Illustrated,
Speaker 1: who I deeply respected, who you know, got really angry
Speaker 1: one day because she thought as the years went on,
Speaker 1: Now this is years later, you know, maybe it was
Speaker 1: when Kobe scored eighty one or Kobe one two in
Speaker 1: a row, why are you still glorifying this guy? Why
Speaker 1: are you still And you know, my point was, I
Speaker 1: can't begin every story with Kobe Bryant Comma who was
Speaker 1: accused of an assault in Colorado in July of two
Speaker 1: thousand three. You can't begin every story like that. That
Speaker 1: a person deserves a chance to go on and grow.
Speaker 1: But it's a tough, you know, journalistic lesson, I think
Speaker 1: for anybody to handle. You agree, Yeah, And it's made
Speaker 1: even more difficult than that. We never got the definitive
Speaker 1: declaration of guilt or innocence from a court resolution. Right,
Speaker 1: it was dropped before it went to court. Again, he
Speaker 1: reached agreement, and that's why I maintain we have to
Speaker 1: allow for the possibility that the user saw this resolved
Speaker 1: to her satisfaction. You know, there was a large settlement
Speaker 1: made and Kobe agreed to apologize and he issued in
Speaker 1: basically an apology and an explanation, and the accuser said
Speaker 1: she would no longer cooperate with the prosecutors, and that
Speaker 1: basically ended the case. And it's possible that that was
Speaker 1: enough to satisfy and she felt, you know, justice had
Speaker 1: been served in that regard and that she got what
Speaker 1: she wanted. We don't know, we've never heard from her,
Speaker 1: so maybe she's still upset, maybe she feels like it
Speaker 1: was insufficient. But the fact that um we never did
Speaker 1: hear from her, and I'm certain you know there was
Speaker 1: a degree of silence that was part of the agreement
Speaker 1: that was reached, but we've never heard otherwise. So that's
Speaker 1: one thing I've taken into consideration. And again a lot
Speaker 1: of this came up again after Kobe died, is that
Speaker 1: how much of his story should we allocate for this
Speaker 1: and uh, should it dominate as you said, should it
Speaker 1: be in the lead paragraph, but in his obituary, I'm
Speaker 1: not certain. And it's especially you do have to allow
Speaker 1: for for growth. And then we'll hear from Phil Jackson
Speaker 1: over the course of this series, the growth that he
Speaker 1: made in his relationship, the steps that Kobe took in
Speaker 1: order to for them to have a productive working relationship
Speaker 1: for the latter part of Phil's career in the second
Speaker 1: half of Kobe's career, and we look at Kobe what
Speaker 1: he went on to do and become such an advocate
Speaker 1: for women's sports um which is what he almost became
Speaker 1: known for, and in particular his daughter and and at
Speaker 1: the time of his passing, he had really become a
Speaker 1: champion for the w n b A. So so all
Speaker 1: of those things came into play by the end. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's unusual. You know, a lot of sports figures or
Speaker 1: celebrities have their great falling at the end, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean what he Hayes went for years when his
Speaker 1: behavior was like sort of right on the edge. But
Speaker 1: Kobe was different. You know, as you said, I'm not
Speaker 1: excusing his age. By the way, he was certainly old enough,
Speaker 1: you know, not to to to know that extramarital sex
Speaker 1: was wrong. Whatever happened. But all this, this happened so
Speaker 1: early in his career, and he had so much of
Speaker 1: his life to live, and as much as he had
Speaker 1: time to be derided by fans Ford, he also had
Speaker 1: the time to change exacting. But Jack, getting back to
Speaker 1: that notion that his his age, and as we've titled
Speaker 1: this episode, it was the first quarter, and in a
Speaker 1: way that benefited him because it allowed for him to
Speaker 1: make the comeback. So he still had the prime of
Speaker 1: his career to come. And one thing that we've learned
Speaker 1: in sports is that if you win, if you if
Speaker 1: you get back to the top, much is forgiven. And
Speaker 1: so one of the reasons that the Kobe Bryant story
Speaker 1: is told in the manner it is is that he
Speaker 1: went on to win two more championships after this low point,
Speaker 1: and certainly two thousand three four is the absolute low point,
Speaker 1: but he pulls himself back from that. But at the
Speaker 1: time it was so different, and it's hard to believe
Speaker 1: that Phil Jackson that you heard at the top of
Speaker 1: this episode and the affection that he had for Kobe Bryant,
Speaker 1: that certainly wasn't the case in oh three oh four.
Speaker 1: And Phil actually at that point wanted complete separation from Kobe.
Speaker 1: He even went to the front office and asked to
Speaker 1: get Kobe traded. And we know this because he wrote
Speaker 1: about it in his Diary of the season it came
Speaker 1: out that summer, and also because he told it to
Speaker 1: us once again when we spoke to him for this podcast.
Speaker 1: And I just went in and talked to the management
Speaker 1: and said, Yo, I don't think this is the right
Speaker 1: time right now. I think Kobe is uncoachable at this
Speaker 1: particular time in his life. And uh, I don't know
Speaker 1: what your direction is, but I think I think you
Speaker 1: have to really assess whether you want to sign Kobe
Speaker 1: for more or how you want to deal with this situation.
Speaker 1: And so that happened. I believe the timeline is in
Speaker 1: January two thousand four, and then there's various reports about
Speaker 1: what happened is supposedly a meeting that Kobe had with
Speaker 1: Jerry Buss on Super Bowl Sunday. What I do know
Speaker 1: is that it all spilled out in the open the
Speaker 1: week right up before the All Star Game, the last
Speaker 1: game before the All Star Break, the Lakers are in Houston,
Speaker 1: and they announced that they're pulling their contract extension offer
Speaker 1: for Phil Jackson off the table, so he's basically going
Speaker 1: to be a lame duck in the second half of
Speaker 1: the season. And Shaq was very upset by that. We
Speaker 1: asked Kobe his reaction. He said, I don't care. That's
Speaker 1: three word quote. I don't care. So that's shows where
Speaker 1: their relationship was. And then it's the All Star Break
Speaker 1: and we talked about the Lakers overshadowing things. Well, they
Speaker 1: overshadowed that All Star break. It's in Los Angeles, and
Speaker 1: I remember people at the NBA were so mad because
Speaker 1: that's supposed to be their showcase, their time to hype
Speaker 1: and promote the league, and all anyone that's talking about
Speaker 1: is the squabbling between the Lakers and their superstars. Shot
Speaker 1: did call me after the All Star Game and said,
Speaker 1: Kobe basically said something that was derogative towards you the
Speaker 1: All Star Game, and um, I think you should talk
Speaker 1: to him. And I said, you know, Cobe just is
Speaker 1: going through difficult time right now. It's hard for him
Speaker 1: to take directions. He's angry, he feels isolated, and he's
Speaker 1: drawn into himself. And I think the best thing to
Speaker 1: do is just let him be. I think that he's
Speaker 1: he'll he'll find his way through this. And so I
Speaker 1: didn't make an issue out of that, but I do
Speaker 1: know that that the contentious nature was part of his
Speaker 1: carriage at that time. And um, he was announced to
Speaker 1: be a free agent, I believe in right before the
Speaker 1: draft that year, and I was dealing with the extension
Speaker 1: on a contract at the same time. Jack. The irony
Speaker 1: is is that basically Kobe set Shack up to be
Speaker 1: the m v P that All Star Game. After all
Speaker 1: they've been going through, Kobe kept passing in the ball
Speaker 1: and Chack Win's MVP that All Star Game exactly. You
Speaker 1: know this. I don't think people understand the day to
Speaker 1: day totality of how a team is together, like how
Speaker 1: much they're together, how they can get on each other's nerves.
Speaker 1: And one of the great things I think about Jerry Buss,
Speaker 1: you have Phil, a great coach, a great you know,
Speaker 1: one day we gotta get you know, we gotta get
Speaker 1: rid of Kobe. Next thing, you know, he's winning championships
Speaker 1: with him. And one of the great things about an
Speaker 1: owner like Jerry Buss who's not involved in this day
Speaker 1: to day rigamarole is he sits back and goes and
Speaker 1: has a very clear vision. I think Kobe Bryant is
Speaker 1: the best guy to win us more titles. It was
Speaker 1: like what he said with Magic, I don't care if
Speaker 1: we trade the whole damn team. I want Magic Johnson,
Speaker 1: you know. And that's one of the things a clear
Speaker 1: headed owner will do. And that's why, Hey, I'm sure
Speaker 1: Jerry Buss did some you know, made some stupid decisions
Speaker 1: like every other owner. But I'll tell you what. The
Speaker 1: guy had his eye on the prize and the price
Speaker 1: eyes out of the aughts was going to be Kobe Bryant,
Speaker 1: and he saw it. And you know, I'm not sure Jay,
Speaker 1: what I would have said about it if I had
Speaker 1: that decision. But he had his decision, that's for sure.
Speaker 1: And so the way the rest of that season played out,
Speaker 1: is that they lose. In the NBA post, it had
Speaker 1: pretty much been determined. I'm sure that that Jerry Bust
Speaker 1: decided that Kobe was going to be the guy going
Speaker 1: forward and he was going to be the centerpiece of
Speaker 1: this team. And within a few weeks at the end
Speaker 1: of those NBA Finals, Phil Jackson is out as coach,
Speaker 1: and then Shaquille O'Neil is traded to Miami and the
Speaker 1: Lakers as we had known them are no more. And
Speaker 1: everything wasn't finished for Kobe though, because he still had
Speaker 1: to resolve the sexual assault case. He was based in Colorado,
Speaker 1: and ultimately they reached the resolution of that we discussed earlier,
Speaker 1: and they settle out of court and the accuser drops
Speaker 1: the case and will no longer cooperate with the prosecutor.
Speaker 1: The problem for Kobe, it though, was he had no
Speaker 1: idea that it was going to play out that way,
Speaker 1: and so because of that, he couldn't promise USA Basketball,
Speaker 1: he couldn't make that commitment to play with them for
Speaker 1: the Olympic team in Athens that year. And you wonder
Speaker 1: if that changes the whole course of history. Right going
Speaker 1: back to the initial allegation in the summer of two
Speaker 1: thousand three. It's still having an impact here in the
Speaker 1: summer of two thousand four, and it keeps Kobe off
Speaker 1: the Olympic team because he just couldn't make that commitment.
Speaker 1: He didn't know what his what his schedule, what his
Speaker 1: life was going to be like. You didn't even know
Speaker 1: if he'd be a free man at the point of
Speaker 1: the Olympics. And so you wonder though, if he had
Speaker 1: been on that team, do they lose, do they finish
Speaker 1: with the bronze medal, or does Kobe get them to
Speaker 1: the gold medal as he ends up doing in two
Speaker 1: thousand and eight, And if they do win the gold medal,
Speaker 1: do we not have that reboot of the USA basketball
Speaker 1: program led by Jerry Colangelo? And do we not even
Speaker 1: have the whole redeemed team and USA basketball as we
Speaker 1: know it now. That's it's a pretty significant what if hindsight.
Speaker 1: But I covered those games, the two thousand four Olympic
Speaker 1: Games and Athens, and I can tell you this, Jay Uh,
Speaker 1: I doubt in Game one, when Carlos Royo made the
Speaker 1: United States look like a JV team, I don't think
Speaker 1: Kobe would have stood for that ship. So I'm gonna
Speaker 1: bet that it would have been different. But I'll tell
Speaker 1: you what. Our episode three coming up is about the
Speaker 1: other alpha dog on a two thousand eight Redeemed Team,
Speaker 1: Lebron James. We're gonna be hearing about his tale and
Speaker 1: three other players from the Redeemed Team who were in
Speaker 1: that great two thousand and three draft class, Carmelo Anthony,
Speaker 1: Dwayne Wade, and Chris Bosh. And also an account of
Speaker 1: those strange two thousand four Olympics when we only came
Speaker 1: home with a bronze medal. There's no pressure. There's no
Speaker 1: pressure at all. I've been getting pressure since I was
Speaker 1: ten years old. I think things could have been different,
Speaker 1: but we didn't. We never had time. I mean, we
Speaker 1: came at the last minute, me and Lebron and did
Speaker 1: we We We got to call that the last minute and
Speaker 1: the way that we looked at him like we we
Speaker 1: just we all here put a rocket film. I'm Jack McCallum,
Speaker 1: I'm je Thanks for listening to Kobe Lebron and the
Speaker 1: Redeemed Team. The Dream Team Tapes, Season two. Kobe Lebron
Speaker 1: and the Redeem Team is a production of Diversion podcasts
Speaker 1: in association with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts. For
Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: where wherever you get your podcasts. This season has written
Speaker 1: and hosted by me, Jack McCallum and j A. Dandee,
Speaker 1: Executive producer Scott Waxman and Mark Frances for Diversion podcast
Speaker 1: and Sean's High Tone for I Heart Radio. Our editorial
Speaker 1: director is John Tuttle, Supervising producer Brian Murphy, legal producer
Speaker 1: Freddie Overseeghen editing, mixing and sound designed by Mark Frances.
Speaker 1: Verna Fields is our technical producer, and our director of
Speaker 1: Marketing and business Development is Jacob Bronstein Diversion Podcasts