Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I don't know stories of things we simply
Speaker 1: don't know the answer to. Hey, guys, welcome to another
Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Sideways the podcasts that podcast. I am Devin,
Speaker 1: joined this week by Joe and Steve. And today we're
Speaker 1: going to talk about a mystery that I've dubbed the
Speaker 1: most Disturbing Drawing. It took me a while to figure
Speaker 1: out that that was a drawing. I thought it was
Speaker 1: a weird art project. No, it's a drawing. Yeah, that one. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So this actually was a suggestion by j W and
Speaker 1: July of two thousand tune two years ago, and so
Speaker 1: hopefully j W still listens, and so thank you or relationship.
Speaker 1: And actually we're going to talk about the mystery of
Speaker 1: Mr Cruel now as cruel as in cruel ye, fair warning.
Speaker 1: As the name implies, this case involves some really horrible
Speaker 1: crimes against young girls, girls, actual girls. Yeah, and we
Speaker 1: are going to be going into details. So this is
Speaker 1: our standards, small ears warning you, I'm out of here.
Speaker 1: We should have a sound effect for that or something.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you right on that. Okay, can it be
Speaker 1: like that earthquake noise by standard go to is always
Speaker 1: a cat meal. So the idea of like the to
Speaker 1: get this sounded like a bunch of kids yelling and
Speaker 1: terror and the stampeding noise as they answered the room.
Speaker 1: Is it like the Charlie Brown stampede when they all
Speaker 1: run through. Yeah, I get right on that edge. General
Speaker 1: overview of this case is Mr Cruel still one hundred
Speaker 1: percent unknown officially, officially one unidentified man and general owner
Speaker 1: of one of the absolutely most terrifying police sketches of
Speaker 1: all times ever. M abducted, abducted, and raped three girls
Speaker 1: and possibly killed a fourth. He left literally no forensic
Speaker 1: evidence behind and was incredibly meticulous. Uh. And the police
Speaker 1: have identified seven suspects that they have literally no reason
Speaker 1: to confirm or to rule out. I think this was
Speaker 1: a case of just kind of rounding up the usual suspects. Well,
Speaker 1: we'll talk about this when we get to it. But
Speaker 1: they interviewed a lot of people. Yeah, the police actually
Speaker 1: think that, um, Mr Cruel is linked to another dozen
Speaker 1: or so attacks on children in the area. And um,
Speaker 1: all of these attacks are from the northern suburbs of Melbourne. Melbourne, right,
Speaker 1: gonna get angry emails? Yeah, come on, it's Melbourne. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So we're gonna just dive right in and um talk
Speaker 1: about this. And I'm gonna just go ahead and say,
Speaker 1: the reading you're going to do about this stuff online
Speaker 1: is about like four paragraphs long. It's like a paragraph
Speaker 1: per victim, victim, thank you. But we have more than that.
Speaker 1: And actually, frankly, I thought this was going to be
Speaker 1: a breathe of a topic for me because when I
Speaker 1: first started doing my research, that's all I could find.
Speaker 1: And then I found this one kind of treasure trove
Speaker 1: in that the police in Australia have very recently within
Speaker 1: i think it was the last year, even released all
Speaker 1: of their documents to certain media outlets in Australia. We
Speaker 1: spent this many years. It's been like three decades. So
Speaker 1: we have a lot of details about these and we
Speaker 1: are going to go into it. So again, small years
Speaker 1: or you know whatever, let's go chronologically, Okay, Okay, it's
Speaker 1: a good way to go. Yeah, it's also the way
Speaker 1: that everybody on the internet goes, and the other way
Speaker 1: confuses me. At about four am on August seven, in
Speaker 1: Lower Plenty, which is again a suburb of Melbourne, Melbourne, Melbourne, Melbourne,
Speaker 1: I've mentioned before, a man wearing a terrifying lady tailored
Speaker 1: bala clava. I'm gonna say he mask the rest of
Speaker 1: the time broke into a family's home. The identities of
Speaker 1: this family is officially withheld. And I'm sure that somewhere
Speaker 1: I saw it, and somewhere you can find it if
Speaker 1: you dig enough. But let's just be respectful in these families. Man,
Speaker 1: that sounds fair. But their name, her name is okay.
Speaker 1: Police have dubbed this victim Jill. That is not her
Speaker 1: real name. The masked man gained access by quote removing
Speaker 1: a pane of glass unquote from a window in the
Speaker 1: living room, though I'm not totally clear how he did that.
Speaker 1: I actually think I know how that It wasn't great. No,
Speaker 1: I'm guessing that this is an older, single gold pane window,
Speaker 1: and the putty on windows like that, it's pretty easy
Speaker 1: to cut with a razor. So you cut the putty
Speaker 1: and just peel it away and then the pane just
Speaker 1: falls out. I replaced window panes. It kind of depends
Speaker 1: on how old the petty is. I tried it at
Speaker 1: my house, which is like ninety years old, and that
Speaker 1: stuff sets up hard as a rock, right, Well, it
Speaker 1: depends on what people use. I mean, I know people
Speaker 1: who have used silicone cocking to seal in windows and
Speaker 1: that stuff that doesn't hard enough. So it really depends
Speaker 1: on what they're using. But that's that's how I presumed
Speaker 1: this is also Australia. They might use silly petty down there.
Speaker 1: We don't know, that would be silly. Yeah, but this
Speaker 1: guy reminds me of the the acxim out of New Orleans,
Speaker 1: because that's how he was getting on trade his his
Speaker 1: victim's homes. Well, no, actually he wants your doors. But
Speaker 1: there were framing panel doors, and so he was and
Speaker 1: it's ready to take one of the panels of the panels,
Speaker 1: and then and then we shot an unlocking door from
Speaker 1: the inside. Yeah. Well, the reason and the reason I
Speaker 1: say it wasn't broken is because the parents didn't wake up.
Speaker 1: This is a family home. It was the parents and
Speaker 1: then two girls. They had two daughters, and the parents
Speaker 1: were woken up by the masked man brandishing a large
Speaker 1: knife and a gun in the face of the basically
Speaker 1: while they were asleep in bed. Yeah. Yeah, I had
Speaker 1: a thing for that. I mean, I know he tapped
Speaker 1: somebody on the head with a knife ones to wake
Speaker 1: them up on the forehead and the next one. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And before we go much further, I'm just going to
Speaker 1: go ahead and like cite my source on this, because
Speaker 1: it it does totally of pure legit. I have found
Speaker 1: stuff to back up the fact that this was one
Speaker 1: of the sources that the police gave the information to. However,
Speaker 1: I also know it's a tabloid. Just fair warning. The
Speaker 1: Harold Son in Australia, in Melbourne is the primary source
Speaker 1: for this information. Wait, I thought it was The Sun
Speaker 1: in Britain. Was the tabloid the Harold's Son? When I
Speaker 1: did some googling on it, it said it was It's
Speaker 1: a morning tabloid. Like I said, I can't keep them straight, right.
Speaker 1: But but as Joe said when we were having this
Speaker 1: kind of discussion earlier this week, when I said, can
Speaker 1: I actually use this as a source of Joe said,
Speaker 1: sometimes sometimes tabloids are right, and I think this is
Speaker 1: one of the instances of that. And so I just
Speaker 1: wanted to go ahead and clearly say this could all
Speaker 1: be total fabrication, but I believe it. So, this unnamed
Speaker 1: family says that Mr Cruel had a knife and a gun,
Speaker 1: handcuffs and nylon cord as well as a small bag
Speaker 1: wrapped around his waist. When he woke the parents up,
Speaker 1: he handcuffed them. He told them to roll on their back.
Speaker 1: He kind of represented represented himself as a thief, had
Speaker 1: them roll on their back or on their stomach, sorry,
Speaker 1: and handcuffed their hands behind their backs. And then oh,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I got this family confused with a different one.
Speaker 1: There's a daughter and a son in this family. So
Speaker 1: Mr Cruel then goes into the boy's room, who this
Speaker 1: article says is eight, but I've seen other sources say
Speaker 1: the boy was six. I've also said other sources say
Speaker 1: that they were in the same room, So I'm not
Speaker 1: totally sure what I think. This is an issue with
Speaker 1: a lot of these kind of stories where there's um
Speaker 1: mixing of characters accidentally. Yes, either way, he goes and
Speaker 1: wakes both of the children up and brings brings them
Speaker 1: also into the master bedroom where the parents are laying handcuffed.
Speaker 1: He unhandcuffs the parents one at a time and then
Speaker 1: basically like hog ties them with what's always described as
Speaker 1: an unusual sailors not or not that somebody who's used
Speaker 1: to quote unquote tying large loads would use. I think
Speaker 1: that just means that that's a person who knows how
Speaker 1: to tie notts something. Yeah, I don't know, but that
Speaker 1: nobody ever says what nobody ever says what the not is? No,
Speaker 1: he hog ties them. Then he blindfolds the parents and
Speaker 1: gags them with tape which is either electrical or surgical,
Speaker 1: again depending on the source of the story. Mr Cruel
Speaker 1: then ties the boy to the bed with nylon cord,
Speaker 1: blindfolds and gags him with the same tape. And then
Speaker 1: the girl was blindfolded and maybe gagged but maybe not
Speaker 1: as well. And this is you know, surgical tape straight
Speaker 1: on the eyes, so like not comfortable for any anybody involved.
Speaker 1: He says he's a robber. He says he wants cash
Speaker 1: and also a first aid kit. He also said he
Speaker 1: was going to take a shower and take some of
Speaker 1: the father's clothes because he was a similar size to
Speaker 1: the father, and he also wanted to shave, and he
Speaker 1: wanted some food. Mr Cruel took some clothes out of
Speaker 1: the wardrobe that was in the parents bedroom and then
Speaker 1: told the parents to get into the wardrobe. He covered
Speaker 1: them with a blanket. He then apparently tried to use
Speaker 1: the phone in the bedroom, but it didn't connect, although
Speaker 1: again I'm not I'm not totally clear on how. I mean,
Speaker 1: they were blindfolded and covered with a blanket, so I'm
Speaker 1: not really sure how. I feel like there was a
Speaker 1: not a lot of narration by perpetrator going on. All right,
Speaker 1: I've got a call hello click back in the back
Speaker 1: in the day too, that when people actually had phones
Speaker 1: that had handsets that went into the receiver, so everybody
Speaker 1: knew what the sound of a phone being. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: just wasn't sure how well you would be able to
Speaker 1: hear that necessary if you had a hard time with
Speaker 1: it with your dial tone. Don't know if you guys
Speaker 1: remember the buttons a few times, so maybe that's what
Speaker 1: he was doing, was hitting the button so it didn't connect.
Speaker 1: And then Mr Cruel went to check all of the
Speaker 1: other rooms in the house. And then he came back
Speaker 1: and actually placed a call, this time which apparently connected.
Speaker 1: During this connected connected. Yeah, during this call, he called
Speaker 1: someone a bozo and threatened the person on the other line,
Speaker 1: telling them that they'd have to move their own kids
Speaker 1: or something of that nature. After he hung up, he
Speaker 1: closed the wardrobe door and locked the parents in. Then
Speaker 1: he turned on a radio in the master bedroom very
Speaker 1: very loudly to a station that is identified, and then
Speaker 1: took the girl into the bathroom. And this is where
Speaker 1: they're not nice stuff begins. Yes, it actually turned out
Speaker 1: that this was his real motive. He was not there
Speaker 1: to be a thief, though he did take a few
Speaker 1: items from the house, but his real motive was to
Speaker 1: rape an assault the eleven year old girl who He
Speaker 1: did this over the course of two hours. He carried
Speaker 1: out his attack on the girl kind of over this
Speaker 1: course of two hours, mostly in the bathroom, but also
Speaker 1: in the lounge room. He took breaks to rummage through
Speaker 1: the family's belongings. He took a break to eat some
Speaker 1: cold Lamb biscuits, milk, and orange juice. He made the
Speaker 1: girl floss and brush her teeth and bathe twice once
Speaker 1: after the first assault and then once right before he
Speaker 1: left the house, which basically obliterated all forensic evidence that
Speaker 1: would have existed of his attack on her. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: General Hospital then took her to a spare bedroom after
Speaker 1: two hours, loosely tied her up on the bed and
Speaker 1: told her that she could count to one hundred and
Speaker 1: then free herself and her family. She told the police
Speaker 1: that she waited to hear the door close and then
Speaker 1: rand free her parents and as I said, they her
Speaker 1: name is not Jill. She's identified as Jill. That's not
Speaker 1: her actual name. But there are reports that Mr Cruel
Speaker 1: called her Kate a number of times, which is also
Speaker 1: not her name, nor is it represented that that's close
Speaker 1: to her name. So he was calling her the wrong name.
Speaker 1: What do it mean? I bet the police thought about
Speaker 1: that a lot, and I think they did. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: actually had asked her name when the whole family was
Speaker 1: tied up in the master bedroom, so he was given
Speaker 1: her actual real name, But he was calling her Kate,
Speaker 1: which probably means something, but we don't know what. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Obviously the police were called immediately. They found, as I
Speaker 1: bet you can guess, almost zero evidence or clues. When
Speaker 1: the family said that Mr Rule had placed a phone call,
Speaker 1: they actually thought, you know, of course this phone number
Speaker 1: dialed could at least lead us to a person who
Speaker 1: had a conversation with Mr Cruel, But it turned out
Speaker 1: that a call had never actually been placed, that Mr
Speaker 1: Cruel had faked it, which is why he had you know,
Speaker 1: blindfolded everyone before he placed this call, he picked up
Speaker 1: the receiver and maybe dial like he there was no
Speaker 1: number that connected. He must have picked up the receiver
Speaker 1: and you know, pushed the the things back down what
Speaker 1: are those things called the receiver button backed down so
Speaker 1: that it didn't actually place a call, and then dial
Speaker 1: the call and totally fabricated a half of a conversation
Speaker 1: just to throw everybody off the trail, which is which
Speaker 1: it does end up. The whole kit thing was probably deliberate.
Speaker 1: I would guess that as well, that it was deliberate. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I also have the impression that Mr Cruel was
Speaker 1: intentionally trying to give the impression that the rape of
Speaker 1: the eleven year old girl was actually a cry of
Speaker 1: opportunity instead of a meticulously planned crime, which it actually was.
Speaker 1: You know, that he was trying to give the impression
Speaker 1: that he just broke in and then happened to see
Speaker 1: an eleven year old girl and rape her because she
Speaker 1: was well, since I'm here, right, and then you know,
Speaker 1: leave with stuff. But he didn't steal enough stuff for
Speaker 1: that to make sense. There was like very little value
Speaker 1: in what he stole, well plus two hours, you know,
Speaker 1: even for a crime of opportunity. Seems like a lot
Speaker 1: of times a girl. Yeah, yeah, I actually think that
Speaker 1: a lot of that time was spent in cleaning her.
Speaker 1: Could have been Yeah, if he's as meticulous as he
Speaker 1: seems to be, and based on things that happened later on,
Speaker 1: I have a feeling that a knowing a man's biology
Speaker 1: and be knowing how long it probably takes to clean
Speaker 1: somebody thoroughly to your satisfaction. For a guy that goes
Speaker 1: to these lengths, he probably spent a lot of time
Speaker 1: scrubbing this girl down. Yeah, and that I think that's accurate.
Speaker 1: The other really interest same thing here is that despite
Speaker 1: the mask, the family was able to give kind of
Speaker 1: a description. They described the man as about five eight
Speaker 1: to five eleven, about Steve's hite. Yeah, slim build with
Speaker 1: brownish grayish whitish hair not like me, and uh, bushy
Speaker 1: gray eyebrows. I'm not totally sure how that was. I
Speaker 1: guess it maybe was sticking through the mask. They're kind
Speaker 1: of knit. Well, No, the eyeholes. That's why that drawing
Speaker 1: is so scary is because he had actually tailored it,
Speaker 1: so the eye holes were literally just there, maybe quarter
Speaker 1: size holes that he had sewn together with white there
Speaker 1: it was a navy blue mask that he used white
Speaker 1: material on, and then he had actually sown yeah sorry,
Speaker 1: white thread on and then so you can see the
Speaker 1: stitch marks that kind of looks like a coralined all almost,
Speaker 1: and then he'd actually sewn basically like netting or something
Speaker 1: behind the eyes and the mouth so they would further
Speaker 1: protect him from leaving any kind of hair. Was like
Speaker 1: Spider Man's mask, yeah, but way scarier. The mouth hoole
Speaker 1: was also just a quarters I mean, it was just
Speaker 1: three quarter size holes in this mask. It was it's
Speaker 1: super super creepy, super creepy. So but I would assume
Speaker 1: that maybe there was some hair sticking out through his
Speaker 1: mask somewhere, which he could have actually like you know,
Speaker 1: placed in there as another red herring. He could have.
Speaker 1: It's true, absolutely could have, despite the grayish whitish hair
Speaker 1: and bushy gray eyebrows. They said that they thought that
Speaker 1: Mr Cruel was actually in his mid twenties. He apparently
Speaker 1: had musty smelling breath. He did eat lamb biscuits, milk,
Speaker 1: and orange juice. Well he had musty breath before then,
Speaker 1: well he might have had lamb. And then he apparently
Speaker 1: also had a deep gruff voice that sounded uneducated, and
Speaker 1: they said he had no accent, which of course means
Speaker 1: he had an Australian accent. He had an accent appropriate
Speaker 1: for the area. With almost nothing to go on, this
Speaker 1: case went cold quickly and it seemed to have been
Speaker 1: a one, one time attack. There was some speculation again
Speaker 1: that Mr Cruel had actually seen the family in a
Speaker 1: newspaper because they had been featured a couple of weeks before.
Speaker 1: Was that article about I don't know we're hearing about
Speaker 1: I suspect they don't talk about it because yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: well this is not the only time that somebody is
Speaker 1: supposedly in the paper ahead of time. No it's not,
Speaker 1: it's not. Let's talk about that, because despite the you know,
Speaker 1: apparent one time nature of this attack, it turns out, no,
Speaker 1: that's not the case. Unfortunately happen. Yeah, a year and
Speaker 1: a few months later, in December. On December, the police
Speaker 1: found out that Mr Cruel was actually a serial offender.
Speaker 1: The previous night on the six the Will's family was comprised,
Speaker 1: which is comprised of John and Julie and their four daughters.
Speaker 1: We're on their way home. They lived in Ringwood, which
Speaker 1: is another suburb of Melbourne, and they apparently arrived home
Speaker 1: at PM. The girls, of course, went promptly to bed.
Speaker 1: The oldest one was ten. Her name is Sharon, so
Speaker 1: they were young. That was late. That's late to be up.
Speaker 1: The girls all slept in one room on two sets
Speaker 1: of bunk beds, and then John and Julie say that
Speaker 1: they stayed up and tell about one am. And then
Speaker 1: John tried to go to sleep, but he couldn't, so
Speaker 1: he got up and did a puzzle and tell about
Speaker 1: four fifty am. He says, it's so weird. I'll put
Speaker 1: your right to sleep. That's a weird thing to do.
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess this is before the internet, so
Speaker 1: dinking around on Facebook or whatever is in an option.
Speaker 1: But I wouldn't think to just sit up in the
Speaker 1: middle of the night and put together a puzzle. I
Speaker 1: would because it's boring. You might go to sleep, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean to be kind of some people are into people, Okay, okay, anyway,
Speaker 1: almost exactly thirty minutes later, so at Mr Cruel came
Speaker 1: bursting in to John and Julie's bedroom. He just threw
Speaker 1: the light on and brandished a gun. He was still
Speaker 1: wearing that same navy blue mask. Julie screamed, but Mr
Speaker 1: Cruel said that he was going to shoot John if
Speaker 1: she didn't stop, so she stopped because she loves her husband.
Speaker 1: He then had them, just like the last couple, lie
Speaker 1: on their stomachs and bound their wrists. This time he
Speaker 1: didn't put them in handcuffs first. He just immediately hog
Speaker 1: tied them. I guess there's not hog tying because there's
Speaker 1: no there was no connection between the arms and legs.
Speaker 1: But he found their arms and legs with copper electrical
Speaker 1: wire with the same unique knot. Again, he claimed to
Speaker 1: be a thief. He then entered the girl's room. Sharon
Speaker 1: was the oldest of the four girls. She was ten.
Speaker 1: She was taken from her bed and I heard I
Speaker 1: read her account and she said she was awoken by
Speaker 1: her mom's scream but just kind of laid in her bed,
Speaker 1: and then she heard Mr Cruel come into her room
Speaker 1: and she pretended to be asleep still, which is smart, right,
Speaker 1: And he left and she heard him walk around the
Speaker 1: house and then come back and say, Sharon, get up.
Speaker 1: So he knew her name, and so at that point
Speaker 1: she was like, Okay, I have to get up, So
Speaker 1: she got up, and he did not ask the parents
Speaker 1: what the kid's names were, not reportedly. Mr Cruel selected
Speaker 1: some of her clothes to take with him, then took
Speaker 1: Sharon out into the living room, grabbed one of John's
Speaker 1: coats and had her put it on over her nighty,
Speaker 1: and then carried her outside and put her down. When
Speaker 1: he put her down, she started to scream again. So
Speaker 1: he actually shoved a ball into her mouth, which is yeah, well,
Speaker 1: it was just a ball. It was like a rubber ball,
Speaker 1: but you'll see people describe it as a ball gag,
Speaker 1: which is a different thing these days. Yeah, he's depending
Speaker 1: on the community you frequent. Yes, he said, if you
Speaker 1: promise not scream, I'll take that ball out, and she
Speaker 1: said yeah. So he took the ball out, and then
Speaker 1: he blindfolded her, maybe with tape, maybe with something else,
Speaker 1: and then placed some material she thought was like tied
Speaker 1: or glued together over her head over the blindfold that
Speaker 1: we that she thinks was tape. He tried to confuse
Speaker 1: her by sometimes carrying her and sometimes making her walk
Speaker 1: until they got to a car. So this one is
Speaker 1: already different in that the last attack took place in
Speaker 1: the home this time, he's actually abducting Sharon, taking her
Speaker 1: somewhere else, taking her somewhere else. He put Sharon in
Speaker 1: the passenger side of the car and had her get
Speaker 1: on the floor of the passenger side. Sharon said that
Speaker 1: she thought it was an old car, and he drove
Speaker 1: for a little bit and then paused and said, Sharon,
Speaker 1: can you see And she said yes because she could,
Speaker 1: And so he reinforced her blindfold um by like taping
Speaker 1: it tighter, and then put a blanket over her. To
Speaker 1: keep shaking my head. It's mostly because I just I know,
Speaker 1: I know, I know. He He continued to reassure her
Speaker 1: that he wasn't going to hurt her again. Kind of
Speaker 1: this weird. I don't know why you're telling her this,
Speaker 1: but I think he didn't want her to be scared.
Speaker 1: I guess. I'm not sure what a guy. He's trying
Speaker 1: to encourage complacence. So it's interesting and we'll talk about
Speaker 1: this at the end when we talked about how Sharon
Speaker 1: described him. But there's some interesting stuff going on here.
Speaker 1: But he just said he was going to ransom her
Speaker 1: for money, basically, So don't worry, I'm not gonna hurt you.
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna hurt you. I just kidnapped you. I
Speaker 1: just want money. Well, that's always reassuring. This, of course,
Speaker 1: turned out to be not true. He unloaded her from
Speaker 1: the car and carried her into the house and laid
Speaker 1: her on the bed. She was able to describe the
Speaker 1: house in detail. I'm not going to go too far,
Speaker 1: but she counted how many steps it took for her
Speaker 1: to get from the car two stairs, and then counted
Speaker 1: how many steps up it was to the house, and
Speaker 1: what side of the house the driveway was on. I
Speaker 1: meant he was very, very aware. Yeah, well, I think
Speaker 1: you would remember this sort of thing. Well, I don't know,
Speaker 1: because a lot of people those details disappear because the brain,
Speaker 1: Your brain just blocks that crap out. It's the saying
Speaker 1: of the word, but it just shuts down. She was sick,
Speaker 1: and I want to bring the Peelis police back here
Speaker 1: to bust it. I think, yeah, And I think probably
Speaker 1: the these memories are the things she was thinking about
Speaker 1: instead of the other things that happened to her later
Speaker 1: as you try to get through. Very good point. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So he got her into the house and replaced her
Speaker 1: tape glue whatever blindfold with like iPads, like medical iPads,
Speaker 1: you know those kind of the metal in the gauze iPads,
Speaker 1: But I mean iPads this in your eye, in your
Speaker 1: head because something else. No, No, I think actually I
Speaker 1: think they're just like cotton. They make these little cotton
Speaker 1: pads that go over your eye and they don't have
Speaker 1: the metal or Okay, they're just basically the same thing though,
Speaker 1: it's the cotton underside of what I'm Yeah, it's just
Speaker 1: a little cotton. It's basically just a cotton swab for
Speaker 1: your your eyes. It's a cotton pirate iPad. And then
Speaker 1: he gently taped that so it was more comfortable for her,
Speaker 1: turned the radio on, and ran a bath. He had
Speaker 1: Sharon floss and brush her teeth and Bathe then returned
Speaker 1: her to the bedroom. She heard the radio on the
Speaker 1: radio that it was seven am at that point, and
Speaker 1: was able to identify the radio station, not that that
Speaker 1: really helps anything. She also said that she heard some
Speaker 1: airplanes fly overhead. Mr Cruel then raped and assaulted her
Speaker 1: and then made her a vegemmite sandwich with a glass
Speaker 1: of milk. And that's why he's called Mr Cruel the vegeom. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he said he was going to leave. By the way,
Speaker 1: you buy a vegeomine anywhere in the States. I've been
Speaker 1: hearing about it for years. I've never actually go to
Speaker 1: the Australian grocery. Okay, he so he said he was leaving,
Speaker 1: so he leashed her to the bed with some sort
Speaker 1: of harness around her neck. Lash. I've heard leash. I've
Speaker 1: heard it. I've heard it described as a very crude
Speaker 1: harness of some kind. I mean, you know, think of
Speaker 1: a dog caller, but something that some weirdo just makes
Speaker 1: in his basement on his own as well, although granted
Speaker 1: nobody ever saw it right, they just felt it right.
Speaker 1: But I mean, you know, if some guy is trying
Speaker 1: to figure out how to attach fabric to material or
Speaker 1: to metal to then be able to lock it and
Speaker 1: chaine it, like that would be why he's described his
Speaker 1: crude and felt probably that would probably was not very comfortable.
Speaker 1: He left the radio and while he was gone to
Speaker 1: that same channel and now here again is one of
Speaker 1: those instances where you think got These girls are just
Speaker 1: especially Sharon, like this is incredible. She is really gutsy.
Speaker 1: She while he's gone, manages to lift her blindfold, so
Speaker 1: she conceived the inside of the room, so she is
Speaker 1: actually able to describe for the police, like in great
Speaker 1: detail everything about the room, including most disturbingly, a wooden
Speaker 1: tripod with a camera setup that was filming the bed
Speaker 1: that she was leashed to, or was set up to film.
Speaker 1: It wasn't filming. Well, I was going to say, I
Speaker 1: don't know that this was necessarily a video camera. It
Speaker 1: might have just been a still camera. I think it
Speaker 1: was a video camera. I mean, this is the time
Speaker 1: where you could tell very distinctly between a video camera,
Speaker 1: and I am not in a disagreement of that, but
Speaker 1: I've never seen it explicitly said what kind of camera
Speaker 1: she saw. That's why I say that. Okay, that's fair. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's probably a good thing if you if you filmed
Speaker 1: all this stuff, because if they already catch up with him,
Speaker 1: he'll probably still have videos. And again we'll talk about
Speaker 1: the great way to lock his ass up for a
Speaker 1: long long time. Yeah, for real. Mr Cruel returned. He
Speaker 1: bathed and clean Sharon again, and then raped her again,
Speaker 1: and then bathed her again, then leashed her to the bed,
Speaker 1: but he checked on her often. He fed her and
Speaker 1: took her to the bathroom as needed. He asked her
Speaker 1: if she was comfortable. I mean, yeah, I know, of
Speaker 1: course I'm comfortable. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't think so. Finally,
Speaker 1: after eighteen hours, he instructed of her to take a
Speaker 1: shower instead of a bath. He washed her hair and
Speaker 1: her body very well, clipped her fingernails and toenails, then
Speaker 1: flost and brushed her teeth again. Then he dressed her
Speaker 1: in a garbage bag. I think more than one. He
Speaker 1: had her stand on a garbage bag and then step
Speaker 1: into a garbage bag that had holes cut for legs,
Speaker 1: and then he put another garbage bag over her head,
Speaker 1: then cut holes so she could breathe because safety. Third,
Speaker 1: I guess it is. He then put her in the
Speaker 1: car again, you know, on the floor in the passenger side,
Speaker 1: and apparently he had trouble starting it, telling Shannon that
Speaker 1: stolen car sometimes won't start, Which is I think this
Speaker 1: is a red herring. Well, it's it's a little logical
Speaker 1: in that, you know, if you've hot wired a car
Speaker 1: and you don't have the key for it, it's not
Speaker 1: probably not going to start as easily as just turning
Speaker 1: the key. I'm not so sure. I don't I think
Speaker 1: it's a red herring. Just that's just me. He drove
Speaker 1: for quote a long time, sometimes fast and sometimes slow
Speaker 1: unquote per Shannon, Sharon Shannon, we've been saying, Sharon. I
Speaker 1: think we've been saying Sharon Shannon. Okay, this is probably
Speaker 1: obviously to confuse her. He parked, picked her up, and
Speaker 1: ran with her for some distance, stopping often to take breaks.
Speaker 1: He's out of shape, yes. Finally he put her down
Speaker 1: and told her how to get to a store nearby.
Speaker 1: He removed the blindfold, which was the trash bag that
Speaker 1: he had cut holes into. He removed it and said,
Speaker 1: you know, don't turn around or else I'll and ran away.
Speaker 1: That must have been a really weird scene for anybody
Speaker 1: to watch. You didn't know what was going on. It
Speaker 1: was a midnight a full grown man running away from
Speaker 1: a small figure in plastic bags. No, it was exactly
Speaker 1: eighteen hours after she had taken all She had actually
Speaker 1: been dropped off at the Bayswater High School, which is
Speaker 1: about three miles from her house. And like I said,
Speaker 1: it was just after midnight and Shannon approached a woman
Speaker 1: who was at a bus stop, and she reportedly, very
Speaker 1: calmly walked up to this woman in trash bags and
Speaker 1: said my name is Shannon Wills, and I was taken
Speaker 1: from my home earlier this morning. A man left me
Speaker 1: here and told me to go ring home. Yet again,
Speaker 1: police were unable to find any clues or forensic evidence.
Speaker 1: The Will's family description of Mr Cruel is pretty in
Speaker 1: line with the previous family's description. Other than the voice,
Speaker 1: Shannon said that Mr Cruel seemed to display some level
Speaker 1: of care and did not describe him gruff at all,
Speaker 1: and like the unidentified girl first one. Yet, Shannon had
Speaker 1: been in the newspaper just a few weeks prior to
Speaker 1: her abduction. You know, I wonder if the gruff. I mean,
Speaker 1: we're already talking about the red Herrings a little bit,
Speaker 1: but it makes me wonder if in that first instance
Speaker 1: it was kind of like what Christian Bale playing Batman. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I absolutely think it was. I think it also was
Speaker 1: to kind of play into that role of I'm a thief.
Speaker 1: Yeah I'm a bad guy. Well he is a bad guy,
Speaker 1: but you know, I'm a different kind of bad guy
Speaker 1: than he is, which I don't think he identifies himself
Speaker 1: as a bad guy. Yeah, really creepy bad guy. Next up,
Speaker 1: Brian and Rosemary Lioness were set to move out of
Speaker 1: their rented house on July four, which is not a
Speaker 1: holiday in Australia. Why not because they did not patriotic
Speaker 1: Not that's true. Yes, they're not patriotic Americans. They along
Speaker 1: with their two daughters, were a month away from moving
Speaker 1: back to England and had planned to rent an apartment
Speaker 1: in Melbourne for the last month inland in Australia. Yeah,
Speaker 1: July three, at about eleven fifteen pm, Mr Cruel forced
Speaker 1: his way into Brian and Rosemary's bedroom via the window.
Speaker 1: Brian Rosemary, however, we're out at a farewell gathering, a
Speaker 1: fact that Mr Cruel was likely very aware of. At
Speaker 1: eleven twenty pm, he woke Nicola up by tapping her
Speaker 1: on the head with his knife. This is the one
Speaker 1: that you were thinking of, Steve. The parents were not home,
Speaker 1: so yeah, but Nicola was home with her sister Fiona.
Speaker 1: Once again he claimed to be a common thief. He
Speaker 1: actually did hog tie Fiona up, this time on the
Speaker 1: parents bed, and then told Nicola to get her school uniform,
Speaker 1: that he had her dress in something other than her
Speaker 1: school uniform and she kept her pajama bottoms on as
Speaker 1: well and then Mr Cruel asked to Nicola and Fiona
Speaker 1: about their father's employment, then told Fiona that he wanted
Speaker 1: dollars ransom for Nicola. He went around the house and
Speaker 1: cut all of the phone lines with a knife, then
Speaker 1: told Fiona that he called in the morning with instructions
Speaker 1: on how to pay, So obviously he wasn't actually intending
Speaker 1: to call in the morning. Yeah, they better call me
Speaker 1: once they get the repair man out here. Well, I'm
Speaker 1: going to call them when he didn't even leave, you know,
Speaker 1: and he that I'm gonna call. Yeah, it might be
Speaker 1: quicker in Australia. I now here in America back in
Speaker 1: those days, took the phone company a while. You get
Speaker 1: aft to your house back in the good old days.
Speaker 1: Fiona said that she looked at the bedside clock and
Speaker 1: remembered that Mr Cruel left with Nicola at eleven forty
Speaker 1: seven pm exactly. He also stole the family's car. Well,
Speaker 1: they had two cars because mom and Dad were in Yes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he had Nicola again kneel on the passenger side floor
Speaker 1: just like Shannon, and he pulled her base cap baseball
Speaker 1: cap low over her eyes. She was apparently wearing a
Speaker 1: baseball cap. He drove for a short distance and then
Speaker 1: they got out of the family car and into a
Speaker 1: different car, where he blindfolded Nicola with tape and then
Speaker 1: put a sche mask over that one or a balacava lava. Yeah,
Speaker 1: once again, Mr Cruel took Nicola to a house she
Speaker 1: heard the radio playing. Once again, he removed the tape
Speaker 1: from her eyes and gently put iPads over her eyes
Speaker 1: as a blindfold. He took it to the bathroom flost
Speaker 1: and brushed her teeth baits, then calling her nikki raped
Speaker 1: an assault at her, maybe he's something again, leashed her
Speaker 1: to the bed around the neck, just like he had
Speaker 1: done with Shannon, and then he fell asleep next to her.
Speaker 1: That guy is pretty sure of himself. Yeah, I was
Speaker 1: gonna say all of the things that this guy has
Speaker 1: done so far, that is yeah, for some reason, yes, Yeah,
Speaker 1: because he's gonna he's spooning this poor, chained up a
Speaker 1: little girl as if there's some actual intimacy between them.
Speaker 1: That's that's what just turns my gut so much on
Speaker 1: there she was too, I mean, doesn't matter still terms,
Speaker 1: but yeah, he had actually turned the radio off while
Speaker 1: he went to sleep, so there was no noise and
Speaker 1: of course, Nicola did not sleep that night. Yeah, she
Speaker 1: didn't hear any noise until she heard really loud airplanes
Speaker 1: flying overhead. So she estimated there were about seven or
Speaker 1: nine of them that flew overhead in a relatively short
Speaker 1: span of time. Basically, what she was describing was like
Speaker 1: the landing pattern of planes, like an airport or an
Speaker 1: army base or exactly something like that. That's actually a
Speaker 1: good information, Yeah it is. Mr Cruel slept and tell
Speaker 1: about ten am when he turned the radio back on.
Speaker 1: She heard, you know, the radio said the time. He
Speaker 1: raped her again at eleven am, then fell asleep again
Speaker 1: next to her. Then at about twelve thirty pm, so
Speaker 1: noon thirty, he took her into the bathroom where he
Speaker 1: raped her again, then bathed her again. Then he told
Speaker 1: her that he had a schoolgirl fantasy and that he
Speaker 1: had followed her home from school, which I think is
Speaker 1: also a red herring. This guy just says whatever random
Speaker 1: bs pops into his head. He does. He dressed her
Speaker 1: in her uniform and then raped her in the kitchen.
Speaker 1: Then he gave her a glass of water and then
Speaker 1: leased her to the bed. She fell asleep for a
Speaker 1: few hours because like of course you would. And then
Speaker 1: she said she woke up again to the sound of
Speaker 1: airplanes prior to ten am. Again after ten am, you know,
Speaker 1: when she woke up and the radio was turned back on.
Speaker 1: He then dressed her in a tennis skirt that he
Speaker 1: had brought. He actually told her the night before he
Speaker 1: was going to address her in the tennis skirt and
Speaker 1: is but so he told her that the night before,
Speaker 1: and then the next morning he dressed her in the
Speaker 1: tennis skirt and raped her and then he started calling
Speaker 1: her missy. At about two pm that day, he finally
Speaker 1: released her to the bed and said he wasn't going
Speaker 1: to quote unquote assault her anymore. He tied her legs
Speaker 1: together with wire, gave her some food and water, and
Speaker 1: then told her a friend and he were going to
Speaker 1: go look for places to drop her off. He had
Speaker 1: a newspaper with him and he said it was the Sun,
Speaker 1: which the Harold Harold Sun, which is where this was
Speaker 1: reported conveniently immediately enough, at about ten pm, Mr cruel
Speaker 1: Nicola if she was hungry, and said that he was
Speaker 1: going to pack all the food away, meaning that this
Speaker 1: was not a usual place of living that he packed
Speaker 1: food in, and he was going to pack it out,
Speaker 1: it would make sense not to bring her to his house. Yep,
Speaker 1: absolutely what. He had Nicola stand on a sheet and
Speaker 1: then showered her and cleaned her body like he had Shannon's.
Speaker 1: He reportedly again said something to his friend that was
Speaker 1: also there with him, But investigators agree that this is
Speaker 1: just one of those attempts to derail the investigation again,
Speaker 1: because Nicola was pretty sure that there was no one
Speaker 1: else there. She didn't hear. You know, it was a
Speaker 1: small house where she was being kept, and she didn't
Speaker 1: hear anybody else come in or And additional to that,
Speaker 1: only one did he say anything to his friend, and
Speaker 1: his friend didn't say anything at all, So I don't
Speaker 1: think there was actually another person there with him. So
Speaker 1: one thing you said here that you said about her
Speaker 1: and the prior victim that we didn't bring up in
Speaker 1: the very first one is her standing on a sheet
Speaker 1: in the bathroom, if I remember correct, the very first girl,
Speaker 1: he trying to think of delicately how to say this
Speaker 1: when he was with her in the bathroom and he
Speaker 1: assaulted her. I seemed to remember there was something about
Speaker 1: the fact that he had laid down a shower curtain
Speaker 1: or sheet or a towel or something, so that I'm
Speaker 1: guessing for the idea that his footprints or shoeprints or
Speaker 1: whatever wouldn't be liftable or retained in any way. So
Speaker 1: this is He's like, there there are things that seemed
Speaker 1: to be happening every single time. Yeah, I mean things
Speaker 1: like flossing, things like cutting their finger and toenails like that.
Speaker 1: You know, forensic evidence and especially public knowledge of forensic
Speaker 1: evidence was not that great in the early nineties. So
Speaker 1: for him to know he was time traveler, that he
Speaker 1: I mean maybe honestly the worst use for time travel
Speaker 1: ever could have worked for a police department. Maybe fantic
Speaker 1: kind of specialist guy. So he was gonna pack it away.
Speaker 1: He he's going to pack all the food away. He
Speaker 1: cleaned Shannon again or sorry Nicola again, said something to
Speaker 1: his friend which is wrong. Then he replaces her iPads
Speaker 1: with tape. You know, he takes the iPads off and
Speaker 1: tapes her eyes shut, blindfolds her with tape. Then he
Speaker 1: puts her clothes on her. But I guess it was
Speaker 1: a different set of clothes that he hadn't had any
Speaker 1: contact with, because he did take a number of sets
Speaker 1: of clothes from her house when he first took her
Speaker 1: from her home. Yes, and then again you know, put
Speaker 1: her on the floor of the passenger side, and then
Speaker 1: again had car trouble again, saying stolen cars often don't
Speaker 1: turn on, which okay. They drove for a while and
Speaker 1: then yeah, they stopped for gas. Well, she thought they
Speaker 1: stopped for gas. She wasn't sure because less it was
Speaker 1: a self serve or or something like, I'm sure it
Speaker 1: was self serve. Oregan is one of the only places
Speaker 1: where it's not self serve. So he stopped for gas
Speaker 1: apparently maybe maybe not. And he had actually wrapped her
Speaker 1: in a blanket when they were at the house, so
Speaker 1: they stopped finally after they got guess they stopped for gas,
Speaker 1: and then they drove around a little bit. Then he
Speaker 1: removed the sheet after they got out of the car
Speaker 1: and took the sheet away from her, and then they
Speaker 1: walked about five minutes, I guess, she thought, And then
Speaker 1: Mr Cruel had her change her clothes again standing on
Speaker 1: that sheet, and then took all the clothes away that
Speaker 1: it would have maybe had evidence from his house on it,
Speaker 1: And then they walked for about three more minutes and
Speaker 1: he i guess. He looked around like he was going
Speaker 1: to stop, and then he said, no, this location isn't
Speaker 1: good for some reason. And then they walked for another
Speaker 1: three or four minutes and then he said, okay, now
Speaker 1: count to a it. He took her blindfold off, said
Speaker 1: count a hundred and then you know, go call the police.
Speaker 1: She had been again left about three miles away from
Speaker 1: her house. It was two am on the morning of
Speaker 1: her four birthday. She had been held by Mr Cruel
Speaker 1: for exactly fifty hours. She knocked on the door of
Speaker 1: a man like they were in kind of a neighborhood
Speaker 1: where she was dropped. So she walked up to a
Speaker 1: door and knocked and a man answered it, and she said,
Speaker 1: can I call my dad? And obviously her picture had
Speaker 1: been everywhere, and he was like, um, yes, of course
Speaker 1: you can. And they called the police and then six
Speaker 1: days later Nicolas's family left Australia forever. Yeah. Nicola and
Speaker 1: Fiona described Mr Cruel to have a beer belly, which
Speaker 1: is different from the other descriptions. The other descriptions had
Speaker 1: him very slim. I gotta tell you that beer Billy's
Speaker 1: come on pretty easily. Yeah, And it had been a
Speaker 1: year or so since the last attack, it's easy the
Speaker 1: fake of beer belly to true true story. And uh
Speaker 1: he was, but he was again described as having the gruff,
Speaker 1: uneducated voice, and apparently he also tended to add use
Speaker 1: to the end of sentences like lay down on the bed,
Speaker 1: use the word you, not the letter you. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: which is why I gave you an example. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: Those are really the only discrepancies between the other three
Speaker 1: descriptions of Mr. Cruel because he didn't use a lot
Speaker 1: what's the other one? But again, I I'm I don't
Speaker 1: think it's beyond the realm of possibility that he was
Speaker 1: just putting on voices. So yeah, all right. Next up
Speaker 1: is Carmen. It's not spelled like you think Karmen is spelled.
Speaker 1: It's k r. It's k A R M I E N.
Speaker 1: But um. From the news coverage of this case that
Speaker 1: I watched, it sounded like her mom was pronouncing it
Speaker 1: Carmen or something dang close. So her name is Carmen.
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna preface this one by saying it's a
Speaker 1: little different. And then there is speculation that's actually copycat um,
Speaker 1: but we'll talk about that later. Officially, it is the
Speaker 1: last known attack by Mr Cruel. On April thirty feet, nineteen,
Speaker 1: thirteen year old Carmen was babysitting her two younger sisters, Carly,
Speaker 1: who was nine and Karen, who was seven. Lots of K,
Speaker 1: lots of K alliteration here. Yeah, that is a really
Speaker 1: terrible thing to do your children. You know why because
Speaker 1: if you ever get mail at the house with first initial,
Speaker 1: last name, you don't know whose mail it is. That's
Speaker 1: a good point. I thought about that. I've known people
Speaker 1: who have done that. Oh yeah, no, I have it.
Speaker 1: Mr Cruel broke into the house at eight forty pm.
Speaker 1: Their parents owned three Chinese restaurants in town and they
Speaker 1: actually ran them. They didn't just you know own them. Um.
Speaker 1: They were fairly wealthy family in the community. Uh. And
Speaker 1: the parents were both working at the restaurant at the time.
Speaker 1: Again the operators, yes, and Mr Cruel very likely knew that. Again,
Speaker 1: maybe he ate there, he did a lot of research.
Speaker 1: Mr Cruel instructed the two younger girls to get into
Speaker 1: the cupboard that was in the room that they were
Speaker 1: all sleeping in and pushed a bed against the doors,
Speaker 1: which you know, locked them in, and then dragged Carmen
Speaker 1: by the hair out of the house, and I know
Speaker 1: that they and I guess I am speculating a bit there,
Speaker 1: but um, she was being held by the hair when
Speaker 1: the girls got into the cupboard, so I presumed that
Speaker 1: he continued to drive at a departure. Tracker dogs were
Speaker 1: unable to track past a nearby road where it's speculated
Speaker 1: that Mr Cruel likely parked his car. Carly and Karen
Speaker 1: managed to escape about ten minutes after and called their father,
Speaker 1: and he of course called the police and the search began.
Speaker 1: Mr Cruel, per his m O left a red herring.
Speaker 1: He had spray painted payback Asian drug deal ler on
Speaker 1: the front of the family's car that was left in
Speaker 1: the in the parking or in the driveway. I am
Speaker 1: going to quickly note here that Carmen, she did attend
Speaker 1: the same all girls school that Nicola attended. Nicola was
Speaker 1: our second victim, write third. Nicola is the most recent
Speaker 1: victim we just talked about. And I read somewhere though
Speaker 1: I don't remember where, that Mr Cool took Carmen's school
Speaker 1: uniform with them when they left, like he did in
Speaker 1: with Nicola. Makes sense. The m O changes here drastically,
Speaker 1: Carmen was not released after eighteen hours, she was not
Speaker 1: released after fifty hours or seventy hours. In fact, she
Speaker 1: was not released at all. Well, she wasn't released a
Speaker 1: lie tactically, I suppose that's true. Two years after she disappeared,
Speaker 1: a man walking his dog saw what he thought was
Speaker 1: a human skull in a landfill, and it ended up
Speaker 1: being Harman's remains. She had been shot at least three
Speaker 1: times in the back of the head and then dumped
Speaker 1: in this landfill. Carly and Karen described Mr Cruel in
Speaker 1: much the same way that Nicola and Fiona had. They
Speaker 1: didn't mention a gruff voice at all, but they did
Speaker 1: say that his scheme mask was brown, which depending on
Speaker 1: different well it's different than the navy blue one that
Speaker 1: had been described in all of the other crimes. Now
Speaker 1: maybe that means that, you know, it was worn out
Speaker 1: or it set in the sun for a year. Well yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think it would have faded into brown,
Speaker 1: but it was, you know, anyway, it was different, and
Speaker 1: so that's another reason that people think that this may
Speaker 1: have been a copycat. And of course they the police
Speaker 1: did actually investigate the drug dealers paint. They actually for
Speaker 1: like three years they did an investigation into the family
Speaker 1: and there was no correction, nothing, nothing whatsoever. He was
Speaker 1: just a legitimate business owner. And the lead investigator makes
Speaker 1: a really really good point here with this case as well,
Speaker 1: and that is that the family's house was not preserved
Speaker 1: as a crime scene. In this instance, a ton of
Speaker 1: people came through and you know, basically they were it
Speaker 1: was it was a man hunt. It wasn't a crime scene,
Speaker 1: so people carried away anything that might have been DNA
Speaker 1: well just I mean, like just by like walking over
Speaker 1: it or not by physically picking up I have a
Speaker 1: feeling that the fact that the daughters called dad, and
Speaker 1: Dad called the cops probably after calling somebody else he
Speaker 1: knew to go over to the house, who then called
Speaker 1: somebody they knew. So there's a whole swarm of non
Speaker 1: investigative type right, and there's also probably people showing up, yeah,
Speaker 1: to help take care of the girls because they've just
Speaker 1: had something very traumatic happened to them. And overall, you know,
Speaker 1: there could have been clues left, though given the Mr
Speaker 1: cruel m O, I doubt it that there were any
Speaker 1: kind of clues. Yeah, if it's him in this instance
Speaker 1: then probably wouldn't have mattered. And Carmen's mother has a
Speaker 1: theory about why Carmen was killed when the other girls
Speaker 1: were not, and it is that, by all accounts, Carmen
Speaker 1: was very stubborn. Defiant is a really good word. And
Speaker 1: Mr Cruel had actually told one of his other victims
Speaker 1: that his freedom was more important than her life. And
Speaker 1: Carmen's mother thinks that it's very likely that Carmen fought
Speaker 1: back and may have pulled the mask off or otherwise
Speaker 1: been able to identify him, so he just angered him enough,
Speaker 1: or maybe if she actually recognized his voice and said, hey,
Speaker 1: Mr Smith, that's you. Isn't it absolutely possible? What are
Speaker 1: you doing? Smithers yea, And actually there's that's a great
Speaker 1: little segue, because we're done talking about the victims and
Speaker 1: now we're going to talk about series and suspects. It's
Speaker 1: here there are actually, Yeah, But the thing we're gonna
Speaker 1: talk about first is that there was this task force
Speaker 1: called Spectrum that included several FBI investigators as well as
Speaker 1: police and other high profile investigators from around the world.
Speaker 1: But that that came together to be a part of
Speaker 1: this task force. Basically do the one of the most
Speaker 1: comprehensive investigations like that has ever taken place. They interviewed
Speaker 1: literally twenty seven thousand, not seven thousand men in the
Speaker 1: area in conjunction with this case as suspects. This is
Speaker 1: a lot like the Naked murders where they just locked
Speaker 1: down a section of the city. Every man is drug
Speaker 1: in front of the cops and questioned till till he's exhausted,
Speaker 1: and then they move on to the next one. Yes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so from extensive interviews of the victims of the families, uh,
Speaker 1: just general kind of stuff they put to other this
Speaker 1: really comprehensive profile of what the kind of person that
Speaker 1: Mr Cruel would have been or or maybe still is
Speaker 1: in his real life. By the way, they shouldn't have
Speaker 1: called him Mr Cruel. That's that's just too dignified. That's
Speaker 1: the newspaper's faults. I should have called a Mr Purvy Pants.
Speaker 1: Well they actually called him Spider. Yeah, he had seven
Speaker 1: or eight different occurs that he was referred to by,
Speaker 1: and Mr Cruel is just the latest one that has
Speaker 1: actually taken Something Rapist. It was like the North Something
Speaker 1: rapist was one of the more common names until Mr
Speaker 1: Cruel really, I think Mr Cruel is a great name
Speaker 1: for him. I think Mr pervy Pass is better, though
Speaker 1: that would have made him angry. So since I don't
Speaker 1: think we want to do that, Joe, well, let's just
Speaker 1: talk about that a little bit because it actually does
Speaker 1: pertain to a theory. So can one of you guys
Speaker 1: read this profile that they put together so it's not
Speaker 1: just an episode of me talking for like twelve Okay,
Speaker 1: I gotta put on my FBI. Oh, I didn't know
Speaker 1: if you wanted paper rock scissors sport. Okay, boom boom boom.
Speaker 1: Uh Wait does that mean I have to Oh I
Speaker 1: didn't realize winning. Maybe I had to read it. That's fine,
Speaker 1: you got your FBI voice. Okay, in my best FBI voice,
Speaker 1: This is gonna be my Batman voice. Mr Cruel was
Speaker 1: probably in steady employment, possibly in a management job or
Speaker 1: self employed with freedom of movement. It said those who
Speaker 1: knew him would not regard him as a monster. He
Speaker 1: would probably be considered a good neighbor and might be
Speaker 1: involved in community projects. He would have an obsessive, compulsive character,
Speaker 1: the type who would immediately wipe his hands if soiled.
Speaker 1: He would have taken a great deal of interest in
Speaker 1: media coverage, though he probably tried to disguise it. He
Speaker 1: would likely go for unexplained drives or walks. He would
Speaker 1: have expressed sexual fantasies or shown sexually dysfunctional behavior. His
Speaker 1: sexual arousal and gratification would probably be dependent on his
Speaker 1: partner playing specific roles, such as dressing in a schoolgirl uniform.
Speaker 1: He used terms like bozo, worry ward, and missy when
Speaker 1: saying things to some of his victims a k A.
Speaker 1: Kitty talk. He could be married or living with a
Speaker 1: woman who goes away around school holidays when some of
Speaker 1: the attacks occurred, or he could be a teacher himself.
Speaker 1: He would be intelligent, well organized. He would seem genuinely
Speaker 1: interested in and dedicated to children. He would have displayed children, yes,
Speaker 1: unfortunately terrible observation. He would have displayed behavioral changes around
Speaker 1: the time of the offenses and on anniversaries or when
Speaker 1: publicity was renewed. Those changes would indicate such things as
Speaker 1: sleeping disorders, reluctances to go to work, distract distraction, or
Speaker 1: different eating and drinking habits. He would disguise his dress
Speaker 1: with abnormally rigid behavior. Yeah, thanks, Mr FBI you're welcome.
Speaker 1: One thing to note before we start talking about suspects,
Speaker 1: We're not going to talk about thousand suspects. This could
Speaker 1: have been a really long episode, could have it already
Speaker 1: kind of is. But one thing just to note is
Speaker 1: that Mr Cruel is a serial offender. And we've talked
Speaker 1: about serial offenders before on this show, and basically what
Speaker 1: that means is it's unlikely that he would have stopped
Speaker 1: these attacks unless he was forced by either death or
Speaker 1: moving or some kind of incarceration, or he accomplished what
Speaker 1: he wanted, whatever that might be. I guess, yeah, I
Speaker 1: think what he wanted was to get his rocks off,
Speaker 1: So I don't think I could continue to accomplish that
Speaker 1: and their perpetuity by just watching his videos. But there's
Speaker 1: also a significant amount of escalation that happens. We can
Speaker 1: see even just over the course of even just the
Speaker 1: first three, but really with the four there's a there's
Speaker 1: a fair amount of escalation. Um The investigator said that
Speaker 1: they thought the reason that he stopped was because he
Speaker 1: got scared, because he was one of the twenty seven
Speaker 1: thousand people that was interviewed, which like if he lived
Speaker 1: in the area, of course he was so, yeah, he
Speaker 1: and every other guy in the bar. We're like, oh,
Speaker 1: you remember that time I got interviewed if I was
Speaker 1: Mr Mr Cruel. So there are officially seven men on
Speaker 1: a list that is being held by the it's you know,
Speaker 1: distributed to all police uh in this area that basically says,
Speaker 1: if any attack similar to the Mr. Cruel one happens,
Speaker 1: these seven suspects should be arrested immediately or brought into
Speaker 1: custody immediately for questioning. But they're apparently thirty two suspects
Speaker 1: that cannot officially be eliminated. But they don't have any
Speaker 1: evidence to prove that any of them did it either,
Speaker 1: So they're not good enough to just immediately go out
Speaker 1: and arrest exactly. In fact, none of them. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: there's no suspect that is good enough to go out
Speaker 1: and arrest. Before we get into theory or these I guess,
Speaker 1: not theories, but these particular suspects that you have here,
Speaker 1: there are some general things that I'm wondering about that
Speaker 1: would probably get to now. Yeah, let's do it. Okay,
Speaker 1: let's just talk about that's great. There's the question of
Speaker 1: the airplanes. Is it one or two of the girls
Speaker 1: that were taken and it was released it was too yeah.
Speaker 1: So Nicola Shannon was the one who, like right off
Speaker 1: the bat said oh, and also I heard airplanes of Alane. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then Nicola was interviewed after she had returned to
Speaker 1: England and she said, I heard these are the airplanes
Speaker 1: and these are when I heard the airplanes. Because she
Speaker 1: was the one who was able to give she actually
Speaker 1: counted I don't know how she I guess she must
Speaker 1: have been aware of the news. She was thirteen, you know,
Speaker 1: she might have been aware of the news. So she
Speaker 1: actually went so far as to when she realized that
Speaker 1: she was being abducted by Mr Cruel, she counted how
Speaker 1: long she was in the car from her house, right,
Speaker 1: she's the one in Canada's well she no, I mean,
Speaker 1: Shannon did that, but she went even further than that,
Speaker 1: where she was able to basically give an entire way
Speaker 1: out of the house. She said, I counted to this
Speaker 1: number until we got to the car, and I think
Speaker 1: we were headed in this direction, and then I counted
Speaker 1: to this number from the car to the how I mean,
Speaker 1: she was like incredibly detailed, but she eventually recalled. So
Speaker 1: both of the people, both of the girls who were
Speaker 1: held in the house, did recall the airplane? Oh, go ahead,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I was gonna say, and a lot of
Speaker 1: airplanes or well, it's a seven seems to be a
Speaker 1: number that I've heard in a number of places. But
Speaker 1: my question is there's two kinds of planes. There's jets
Speaker 1: and propeller planes. And what I'm trying to understand was
Speaker 1: it a jet airplane or was it a propeller driven plane,
Speaker 1: maybe a small airport versus a large international type. Well,
Speaker 1: the reason I say that is that if you've ever
Speaker 1: heard airplanes at a distance and there's some other background noise,
Speaker 1: and and you've heard motorcycles in the distance, if depending
Speaker 1: on what they are, they can sound similar, not the same.
Speaker 1: I understand they're identical, but do a girl who's not
Speaker 1: on the motorcycle scene, it could sound like an airplane.
Speaker 1: So that's the reason I'm asking. It's a good question.
Speaker 1: Nicola seems to think that they were on the landing
Speaker 1: path of airplanes, so it was so it's less jets
Speaker 1: landing well or less of the noise of just the
Speaker 1: airplane and actual you can there's sounds of descent. Yes,
Speaker 1: that's she seemed to think they were lower than they
Speaker 1: should have been, maybe not like right next to the
Speaker 1: airport right, but on the flight path into the airport,
Speaker 1: and that would also be I guess you know, it's
Speaker 1: the northern part of Melbourne if I remember correctly. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But but in addition to that, I mean, it would
Speaker 1: make sense that she would hear planes during sometimes and
Speaker 1: not others, because you know, they have flight paths based
Speaker 1: on time of day and wind pattern and all of
Speaker 1: that stuff. So you know, if she heard it just
Speaker 1: kind of in this distinct time in the morning, that's
Speaker 1: when they were getting those planes landed. Shannon, I don't think,
Speaker 1: was able to provide a whole lot of detail. But
Speaker 1: she was also only held for eighteen hours versus Nicola,
Speaker 1: who was there for fifty. So Nicola had two full
Speaker 1: days to observe the patterns of things, whereas Nicola, I mean,
Speaker 1: Shannon um just she said she heard some airplanes, but
Speaker 1: it wasn't She wasn't held really in the more. I mean,
Speaker 1: she just heard the couple in the morning when she
Speaker 1: was first there, and she was still disoriented. Okay, So
Speaker 1: the next question that I have is probably asking for
Speaker 1: more details than you have or any of us want
Speaker 1: to know my but it is based around the fact
Speaker 1: of the frequency of the assaults that these girls reported
Speaker 1: that they got. I am presuming that they are not
Speaker 1: simply all acts of penetration. Um. The the best description,
Speaker 1: the best description, and the most descriptive that anybody gets
Speaker 1: is they say raped and assaulted. And I suspect that
Speaker 1: that means that there was a varying degree of assault
Speaker 1: that was happening. I don't think it was always necessarily
Speaker 1: one body penetrating the other. It may have been, well,
Speaker 1: it may have been penetrave in that it was an
Speaker 1: object or hand, but it wasn't. I don't think it
Speaker 1: was always necessary. That's the reason I asked because some
Speaker 1: of the what really really schemed me out with some
Speaker 1: of the early articles that I read made it sound
Speaker 1: like this guy was on viagra the whole time, and
Speaker 1: I was like, it was doing it quite a lot. Pretty.
Speaker 1: But I will just go ahead and say that physiology
Speaker 1: in general is a fickle thing. And I know because
Speaker 1: you're talking about a refractory period of some sort. I presume, yes,
Speaker 1: that doesn't always happen, not all. Like I'm sorry to
Speaker 1: be most meaning to you a fractory period. But in
Speaker 1: my experience, there are some men out there who don't,
Speaker 1: and especially under the right circumstances, that are extra exciting.
Speaker 1: Sometimes men don't have that period of time and they
Speaker 1: can get right back into it. Yeah, it does happen.
Speaker 1: And maybe he wasn't. And obviously this was this guy's big,
Speaker 1: big but I mean even you don't know, maybe he
Speaker 1: was taking vibrate because he was so yeah in the yeah,
Speaker 1: it was in the well know, in the big nineties became,
Speaker 1: but there was other things. There are other things that
Speaker 1: can have the same effect. But okay, so then my
Speaker 1: my last question here is so they say that he
Speaker 1: couldn't have stopped on his own, and I just well,
Speaker 1: they say he had, you know, he was scared away,
Speaker 1: But that doesn't match up with behavior that we've talked
Speaker 1: about in the past. And I mean, I have a
Speaker 1: theory as to why Harmon was the last one, and
Speaker 1: it's probably the most disturbing of all the theories out there. Well,
Speaker 1: I guess my theory about why Carmen is the last
Speaker 1: one is that his murder of Carmen, in conjunction with
Speaker 1: the extensive nature of the investigation in which he may
Speaker 1: have even been interviewed by the police. Just scared him
Speaker 1: off entirely. Where he it just became you know, like
Speaker 1: he said, his freedom was more important than anything, and
Speaker 1: it just became too risky for him to continue to
Speaker 1: do this. So he found it by you know, reviewing
Speaker 1: the tapes or slides or pictures and you know, being
Speaker 1: able to carry out role plays with consenting partners. And
Speaker 1: that's where that's probably the most disturbing part. That the
Speaker 1: most disturbing idea that I've come to is the why
Speaker 1: this guy stopped is he met somebody. And at first
Speaker 1: I was like, well, you know, for every kink there's
Speaker 1: somebody who's happy to fulfill that kink. But for this guy,
Speaker 1: I don't think it's an adult woman dressing up like
Speaker 1: a schoolgirl and letting him play act to do whatever
Speaker 1: he wants. What really, know, what really disturbs me is
Speaker 1: that he met a woman who was down with his kink,
Speaker 1: who had a daughter and said, here is your smart board,
Speaker 1: and he suddenly was off of the market. Does but
Speaker 1: I mean, kids age pretty quick, so his thing was
Speaker 1: an eleven year I mean, you know the ten to
Speaker 1: thirteen range pre puberty. Listen, we've talked about guys who
Speaker 1: started assaulting young girls at the age of five and
Speaker 1: didn't stop until they were thirty. Yeah, that's true. I mean,
Speaker 1: there there are stories like that. So it doesn't mean
Speaker 1: that just because she was no longer twelve, she was
Speaker 1: no longer useful in that manner the nicest I can't.
Speaker 1: I mean, let's just hop in. We're only going to
Speaker 1: talk about three suspects, and none of them are named.
Speaker 1: Don't work, but yeah, we have, we have our own
Speaker 1: names for them. But um, one of them is just
Speaker 1: called John A K. John Doe. And I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: because it's a good transition into this. John was brought
Speaker 1: to the attention of the police because he had a partner, um,
Speaker 1: a consenting adult female partner. I yeah, girlfriend's sexual partner.
Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure which. Uh that said that John
Speaker 1: started talking about Carmen during sex while they were role
Speaker 1: playing schoolgirl stuff, and then was apparently really upset when
Speaker 1: the media dubbed the killer Mr Cruel, Mr prvy pants. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1: and then John. John was apparently self employed and traveled
Speaker 1: a lot, so he had a reason to disappear on
Speaker 1: the job, and while police took this claim seriously, the
Speaker 1: X had a lot of discrepancies in her story and
Speaker 1: they kind of thought, well, we're obviously going to investigate
Speaker 1: this person, but it kind of seems like this person
Speaker 1: is just trying to get and John, John, this is
Speaker 1: the same thing that we've talked about with x Is
Speaker 1: before last week, when we talked about Able and the
Speaker 1: fact that Abel only came to the police's attention after
Speaker 1: he is soon to be third X. Yeah, you know
Speaker 1: spilled the quote unquote spilled the beans on him, which
Speaker 1: really was just to bring down hell on it totally. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she succeeded. Yeah, yeah, Um, so our next and I apologize.
Speaker 1: I think sometimes we do these stories and our listeners
Speaker 1: are like, you guys just told the story and then
Speaker 1: like haphazardly through like three sentences on each theory and
Speaker 1: like that's it. But that's literally you can do the research.
Speaker 1: I hope you will do the research and follow some
Speaker 1: of the links to some of the stuff that we found.
Speaker 1: And there's no, there's nothing. There's really nothing. So we're
Speaker 1: going to talk about two other suspects. Well, I will
Speaker 1: just say, I why is it the show always puts
Speaker 1: me in the weird position of potentially defending a creep ozoid.
Speaker 1: But I'm gonna do it a little bit. You're going
Speaker 1: to defend this guy just to any bit from if
Speaker 1: his partner is saying he started talking about this while
Speaker 1: we were role playing, it is entirely possible that this
Speaker 1: guy had a thing for Asian school girls and this
Speaker 1: girl happened to be in the news, so he started
Speaker 1: talking about her. Oh. I think John is absolutely not
Speaker 1: an actual What I'm saying is that he may have
Speaker 1: started saying this stuff. He might have been seeing some
Speaker 1: other chick named Carmen. Yeah, and his and his partner
Speaker 1: is just like, what the dude, that is not okay?
Speaker 1: And you know, she gets mad, she spills a beer
Speaker 1: on and she runs away and that's the end of that.
Speaker 1: And he's thinking, okay, so the big deal, except then
Speaker 1: she turns heround and tell the cops. No, I don't
Speaker 1: think I mean, I don't think that John is I
Speaker 1: think the police did their due diligence, But I think
Speaker 1: overall John is not a good suspect. But he's on
Speaker 1: the top seven, isn't he. No. Oh, okay, so I
Speaker 1: thought John was in the top seven. That's why the
Speaker 1: other thirty two he's in the other thirty two. He's
Speaker 1: not in the seven where they're like, get this person
Speaker 1: in me. Okay, okay. He's just one of the ones
Speaker 1: that's widely reported on it because I don't know they
Speaker 1: gave a name to him. I guess I don't know.
Speaker 1: The next suspect we're going to talk about is we're
Speaker 1: going to call him Prime a k A. The Lecturer,
Speaker 1: a k A. No name McGhee. He is the prime suspect.
Speaker 1: He is. He is Mr pervy Pants. He is the
Speaker 1: prime suspect for this case. Though again they can't there's
Speaker 1: no evidence, like there's no evidence at all. But um
Speaker 1: the Lecturer is a seventy four year old former university
Speaker 1: lecturer and director of a construction design firm in the seventies.
Speaker 1: He spent ten years in jail for for rapes and
Speaker 1: attacks at knife point on young women and girls, and
Speaker 1: a source said that he has slides. You guys remember slides.
Speaker 1: He has slides of the girls that were abducted. It
Speaker 1: on his on a bed. But the police did an
Speaker 1: extensive investigation, they were unable to find it. And in fact,
Speaker 1: the Sun reached out to this person because they have
Speaker 1: named Yeah, the tabloid. They have the name they again,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that it's fair to not release
Speaker 1: the names of these people because you don't know which
Speaker 1: hunt to happen. But they reached out to this person
Speaker 1: and he said, um, oh yeah, I know. I know
Speaker 1: they think I did it. I didn't, but I know
Speaker 1: that I'm their prime suspect. Well there's at least one
Speaker 1: other guy who also said, oh yeah, I know. I
Speaker 1: knew they were They followed me for years. They weren't
Speaker 1: They weren't clever about it at all. Yeah. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: he's the strongest suspect and that is literally all we
Speaker 1: know about him. Congratulations. Yeah, not even a first name. No. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then the final suspect is Arans. This is not
Speaker 1: an episode about Urons, by the way, tell people who
Speaker 1: don't know who that is is the original night Stalker again,
Speaker 1: may even not be the same person, but at least
Speaker 1: don't send us see angry emails about that statement. It's
Speaker 1: another episode for another time that we will maybe eventually
Speaker 1: sometimes do. But I saw this speculation on a couple
Speaker 1: of forums and I thought it was kind of interesting
Speaker 1: and compelling. It's I don't think it actually is, but
Speaker 1: there's some speculation that Urons traveled to Australia after his
Speaker 1: prolific attacks in California in the seventies. His last official
Speaker 1: attack in California was eighty six, and then the first
Speaker 1: Mr Cruel attack was eighty seven, so the timeline could
Speaker 1: match up. You could also explain the weird accents and voices.
Speaker 1: But although the ms were different, the emmos were very different. Well,
Speaker 1: I will say, when you look at the confirmed Urons cases,
Speaker 1: his victims do get progressively younger as he evolves. As evolves,
Speaker 1: I hate that term for these as he progresses on
Speaker 1: his spiral of horrible I like that, but that's a
Speaker 1: pretty big leap. He's you know, Urons attacked an eighteen
Speaker 1: year old and then to move directly on too like
Speaker 1: an eleven year old is a pretty big leap. And again,
Speaker 1: one of the big things that draws people to the
Speaker 1: Aran cases is all the documents and the letters that
Speaker 1: are attached to that case. That there's none of that here.
Speaker 1: So I don't think it's a solid theory, but I
Speaker 1: thought it was an interesting thought experiment. I guess in it. Frankly,
Speaker 1: I think I think the police know who it is.
Speaker 1: They just don't have enough evidence, which is really a
Speaker 1: huge bummer. There's all kinds of speculation that this guy
Speaker 1: in some way is connected to the school system in
Speaker 1: the area. You talked about this before. It is the
Speaker 1: fact that they happen over typically around school holiday. They
Speaker 1: happened around school holidays. You actually mentioned that when you
Speaker 1: were reading the profile. Oh, I don't remember school holidays.
Speaker 1: And they also, you know, two of the girls went
Speaker 1: to the same school, so it's possible that it was
Speaker 1: a teacher from that school. You know, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I there again in the profile that the Mr Cruel
Speaker 1: would have shown an interest in children, So there were
Speaker 1: there was a lot of speculation that he was a
Speaker 1: teacher of some kind or in the school system in
Speaker 1: some way. And again that's why that prime suspect. He
Speaker 1: was a university lecturer, so people thought maybe that would
Speaker 1: be the connection. But I don't know. I find this
Speaker 1: case so unsatisfying. I mean, but but I think that
Speaker 1: if we're gonna I mean, if there's the he worked
Speaker 1: in the school system, I don't buy that. I buy
Speaker 1: what Joe said earlier, which is yeah, because he had
Speaker 1: so much apparent knowledge of how the investigation process worked
Speaker 1: on the other hand, the argument could be made that
Speaker 1: he was just obsessive, compulsive and needed them to be clean. Um,
Speaker 1: I mean he cleaned them before and after every single attack. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I mean the all of the false leads that
Speaker 1: he creates. Yeah, that's that's something that makes me wonder. Well,
Speaker 1: there's some Again we're kind of running into speculation here,
Speaker 1: but that's got left I know. But for me, you know,
Speaker 1: they are young girls. I presume that one of the
Speaker 1: turn ons for the young girl is the purity of it.
Speaker 1: So he would want them to be clean before and
Speaker 1: then he would view them as soiled until he could
Speaker 1: clean them again afterwards. I mean, I think there's some
Speaker 1: I'm sure psychologists could get like really deep into this,
Speaker 1: but I don't I agree. I think that there is
Speaker 1: some forensic knowledge there, but maybe he was a forensic
Speaker 1: teacher read about stuff like that. When you think about
Speaker 1: guys like morticians that have a connection to police departments,
Speaker 1: they would know that they would glean that kind of
Speaker 1: information from if nothing else, they're encounters. I mean, there's
Speaker 1: there's a whole That's why I always feel let down
Speaker 1: by this because everybody says he must be involved in
Speaker 1: the school system. Where there's this whole other realms of
Speaker 1: ways that he could have been connected and known the
Speaker 1: things that he seems to have known. I think people
Speaker 1: think school system because that allows for the time for
Speaker 1: the meticulous planning. I mean, he he stalked these families
Speaker 1: for at least weeks at a time before he carried
Speaker 1: out the attacks. He learned their their schedules, he knew
Speaker 1: when they were there and when they weren't there, and
Speaker 1: timed and planned his attacks so meticulously so that they
Speaker 1: would just be perfect. I mean, he was obviously watching
Speaker 1: the house. He was obviously watching Shannon's house because the
Speaker 1: parents went to sleep, and then John immediately was like,
Speaker 1: I can't go to sleep, and stayed up for four
Speaker 1: and a half more hours obviously, and then a half
Speaker 1: an hour later he, you know, Mr Cruel, busts in.
Speaker 1: He sat and waited and watched this house for the
Speaker 1: majority of the night. I mean, these are like insanely
Speaker 1: meticulously planned things. And so I think one of the
Speaker 1: reasons that people think maybe a teacher is that on
Speaker 1: that break, he would have had time to actually devote
Speaker 1: that amount of time. Breaks are early for days and
Speaker 1: not some I'm talking about nuts. Something well, I guess
Speaker 1: it is. Also there was a summer break and Christmas
Speaker 1: break are pretty much the two times that these attacks happen.
Speaker 1: Does Australia at a time Does Australia have a summer,
Speaker 1: summer recess, summer break like we have. They do in Okay,
Speaker 1: but it would be winter right, well, but they do
Speaker 1: it in that time, but it's not always in the
Speaker 1: same time frame we're used to. But that's why, I mean,
Speaker 1: I I don't think that because he's a teacher, he
Speaker 1: had all this spare time. He could be a part
Speaker 1: time janitor for all we freaking know, and he has
Speaker 1: nothing to do but every week go park next to
Speaker 1: this house and eat a sandwich and watch and memorize
Speaker 1: their actions. I mean, that's that's a random example. But
Speaker 1: I know a guy who's just had from a wealthy family.
Speaker 1: He doesn't have to work. There's also other people out
Speaker 1: there that have jobs that are flexible, they're self employed
Speaker 1: and they can so I don't. I don't buy the
Speaker 1: school system thing myself. Yeah, that's where forensics My entire
Speaker 1: complaint comes from. But I want to I kind of
Speaker 1: suspect that he must be on the list of the
Speaker 1: seven because obviously he stopped. He must have stopped for
Speaker 1: a reason, he know that, I mean, or he moved,
Speaker 1: or you know, you could have just been having like
Speaker 1: a lunchtime conversation with a coworker and just sort of said, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I kind of had these fantasies about about
Speaker 1: you know, schoolgirls, and the guy says, yeah, too bad,
Speaker 1: that's the illegal, Fred. But you know you can't go
Speaker 1: to Thailand friends, Like Thailand's true. It's a hot skipped boyfriend.
Speaker 1: I mean, you haven't heard about you haven't heard about
Speaker 1: pervs going to Thailand. Yeah, maybe he discovered that it's true. Yeah, um,
Speaker 1: so I'm ready to be done with this. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, hopefully he didn't discover title and
Speaker 1: hopefully he just got cancer and died, you know, the
Speaker 1: worst kind of hopefully that happened. Yeah, but in agony
Speaker 1: for years. Yeah, I would, I would. I hope that
Speaker 1: that will be good. So appropriately, Yeah, we will post
Speaker 1: some links to some research on our website where you
Speaker 1: can also download and listen to the show, as well
Speaker 1: as find links to our merchandise stores. That website is
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Speaker 1: think that takes care of all of the housekeeping. So
Speaker 1: all of that having been said, we're going to get
Speaker 1: out of here and cry for the next four days
Speaker 1: something like that. Yeah yeah, I got no, I got
Speaker 1: no clever puns for this one. What ever? Doing? Bye everybody?
Speaker 1: Yeah bye guys. Next week