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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I don't know stories of things we simply

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Speaker 1: don't know the answer to. Hey, guys, welcome to another

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Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Sideways the podcasts that podcast. I am Devin,

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Speaker 1: joined this week by Joe and Steve. And today we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about a mystery that I've dubbed the

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Speaker 1: most Disturbing Drawing. It took me a while to figure

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Speaker 1: out that that was a drawing. I thought it was

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Speaker 1: a weird art project. No, it's a drawing. Yeah, that one. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So this actually was a suggestion by j W and

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Speaker 1: July of two thousand tune two years ago, and so

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Speaker 1: hopefully j W still listens, and so thank you or relationship.

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Speaker 1: And actually we're going to talk about the mystery of

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Speaker 1: Mr Cruel now as cruel as in cruel ye, fair warning.

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Speaker 1: As the name implies, this case involves some really horrible

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Speaker 1: crimes against young girls, girls, actual girls. Yeah, and we

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Speaker 1: are going to be going into details. So this is

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Speaker 1: our standards, small ears warning you, I'm out of here.

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Speaker 1: We should have a sound effect for that or something.

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you right on that. Okay, can it be

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Speaker 1: like that earthquake noise by standard go to is always

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Speaker 1: a cat meal. So the idea of like the to

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Speaker 1: get this sounded like a bunch of kids yelling and

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Speaker 1: terror and the stampeding noise as they answered the room.

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Speaker 1: Is it like the Charlie Brown stampede when they all

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Speaker 1: run through. Yeah, I get right on that edge. General

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Speaker 1: overview of this case is Mr Cruel still one hundred

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Speaker 1: percent unknown officially, officially one unidentified man and general owner

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Speaker 1: of one of the absolutely most terrifying police sketches of

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Speaker 1: all times ever. M abducted, abducted, and raped three girls

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Speaker 1: and possibly killed a fourth. He left literally no forensic

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Speaker 1: evidence behind and was incredibly meticulous. Uh. And the police

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Speaker 1: have identified seven suspects that they have literally no reason

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Speaker 1: to confirm or to rule out. I think this was

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Speaker 1: a case of just kind of rounding up the usual suspects. Well,

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about this when we get to it. But

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Speaker 1: they interviewed a lot of people. Yeah, the police actually

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Speaker 1: think that, um, Mr Cruel is linked to another dozen

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Speaker 1: or so attacks on children in the area. And um,

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Speaker 1: all of these attacks are from the northern suburbs of Melbourne. Melbourne, right,

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Speaker 1: gonna get angry emails? Yeah, come on, it's Melbourne. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So we're gonna just dive right in and um talk

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Speaker 1: about this. And I'm gonna just go ahead and say,

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Speaker 1: the reading you're going to do about this stuff online

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Speaker 1: is about like four paragraphs long. It's like a paragraph

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Speaker 1: per victim, victim, thank you. But we have more than that.

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Speaker 1: And actually, frankly, I thought this was going to be

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Speaker 1: a breathe of a topic for me because when I

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Speaker 1: first started doing my research, that's all I could find.

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Speaker 1: And then I found this one kind of treasure trove

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Speaker 1: in that the police in Australia have very recently within

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Speaker 1: i think it was the last year, even released all

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Speaker 1: of their documents to certain media outlets in Australia. We

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Speaker 1: spent this many years. It's been like three decades. So

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Speaker 1: we have a lot of details about these and we

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Speaker 1: are going to go into it. So again, small years

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Speaker 1: or you know whatever, let's go chronologically, Okay, Okay, it's

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Speaker 1: a good way to go. Yeah, it's also the way

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Speaker 1: that everybody on the internet goes, and the other way

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Speaker 1: confuses me. At about four am on August seven, in

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Speaker 1: Lower Plenty, which is again a suburb of Melbourne, Melbourne, Melbourne, Melbourne,

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Speaker 1: I've mentioned before, a man wearing a terrifying lady tailored

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Speaker 1: bala clava. I'm gonna say he mask the rest of

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Speaker 1: the time broke into a family's home. The identities of

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Speaker 1: this family is officially withheld. And I'm sure that somewhere

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Speaker 1: I saw it, and somewhere you can find it if

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Speaker 1: you dig enough. But let's just be respectful in these families. Man,

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Speaker 1: that sounds fair. But their name, her name is okay.

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Speaker 1: Police have dubbed this victim Jill. That is not her

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Speaker 1: real name. The masked man gained access by quote removing

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Speaker 1: a pane of glass unquote from a window in the

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Speaker 1: living room, though I'm not totally clear how he did that.

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Speaker 1: I actually think I know how that It wasn't great. No,

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Speaker 1: I'm guessing that this is an older, single gold pane window,

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Speaker 1: and the putty on windows like that, it's pretty easy

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Speaker 1: to cut with a razor. So you cut the putty

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Speaker 1: and just peel it away and then the pane just

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Speaker 1: falls out. I replaced window panes. It kind of depends

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Speaker 1: on how old the petty is. I tried it at

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Speaker 1: my house, which is like ninety years old, and that

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Speaker 1: stuff sets up hard as a rock, right, Well, it

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Speaker 1: depends on what people use. I mean, I know people

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Speaker 1: who have used silicone cocking to seal in windows and

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Speaker 1: that stuff that doesn't hard enough. So it really depends

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Speaker 1: on what they're using. But that's that's how I presumed

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Speaker 1: this is also Australia. They might use silly petty down there.

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Speaker 1: We don't know, that would be silly. Yeah, but this

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Speaker 1: guy reminds me of the the acxim out of New Orleans,

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Speaker 1: because that's how he was getting on trade his his

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Speaker 1: victim's homes. Well, no, actually he wants your doors. But

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Speaker 1: there were framing panel doors, and so he was and

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Speaker 1: it's ready to take one of the panels of the panels,

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Speaker 1: and then and then we shot an unlocking door from

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Speaker 1: the inside. Yeah. Well, the reason and the reason I

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Speaker 1: say it wasn't broken is because the parents didn't wake up.

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Speaker 1: This is a family home. It was the parents and

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Speaker 1: then two girls. They had two daughters, and the parents

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Speaker 1: were woken up by the masked man brandishing a large

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Speaker 1: knife and a gun in the face of the basically

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Speaker 1: while they were asleep in bed. Yeah. Yeah, I had

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Speaker 1: a thing for that. I mean, I know he tapped

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Speaker 1: somebody on the head with a knife ones to wake

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Speaker 1: them up on the forehead and the next one. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And before we go much further, I'm just going to

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Speaker 1: go ahead and like cite my source on this, because

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Speaker 1: it it does totally of pure legit. I have found

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Speaker 1: stuff to back up the fact that this was one

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Speaker 1: of the sources that the police gave the information to. However,

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Speaker 1: I also know it's a tabloid. Just fair warning. The

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Speaker 1: Harold Son in Australia, in Melbourne is the primary source

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Speaker 1: for this information. Wait, I thought it was The Sun

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Speaker 1: in Britain. Was the tabloid the Harold's Son? When I

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Speaker 1: did some googling on it, it said it was It's

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Speaker 1: a morning tabloid. Like I said, I can't keep them straight, right.

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Speaker 1: But but as Joe said when we were having this

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Speaker 1: kind of discussion earlier this week, when I said, can

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Speaker 1: I actually use this as a source of Joe said,

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Speaker 1: sometimes sometimes tabloids are right, and I think this is

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Speaker 1: one of the instances of that. And so I just

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Speaker 1: wanted to go ahead and clearly say this could all

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Speaker 1: be total fabrication, but I believe it. So, this unnamed

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Speaker 1: family says that Mr Cruel had a knife and a gun,

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Speaker 1: handcuffs and nylon cord as well as a small bag

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Speaker 1: wrapped around his waist. When he woke the parents up,

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Speaker 1: he handcuffed them. He told them to roll on their back.

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Speaker 1: He kind of represented represented himself as a thief, had

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Speaker 1: them roll on their back or on their stomach, sorry,

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Speaker 1: and handcuffed their hands behind their backs. And then oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I got this family confused with a different one.

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Speaker 1: There's a daughter and a son in this family. So

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Speaker 1: Mr Cruel then goes into the boy's room, who this

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Speaker 1: article says is eight, but I've seen other sources say

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Speaker 1: the boy was six. I've also said other sources say

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Speaker 1: that they were in the same room, So I'm not

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Speaker 1: totally sure what I think. This is an issue with

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Speaker 1: a lot of these kind of stories where there's um

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Speaker 1: mixing of characters accidentally. Yes, either way, he goes and

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Speaker 1: wakes both of the children up and brings brings them

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Speaker 1: also into the master bedroom where the parents are laying handcuffed.

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Speaker 1: He unhandcuffs the parents one at a time and then

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Speaker 1: basically like hog ties them with what's always described as

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Speaker 1: an unusual sailors not or not that somebody who's used

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Speaker 1: to quote unquote tying large loads would use. I think

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Speaker 1: that just means that that's a person who knows how

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Speaker 1: to tie notts something. Yeah, I don't know, but that

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Speaker 1: nobody ever says what nobody ever says what the not is? No,

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Speaker 1: he hog ties them. Then he blindfolds the parents and

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Speaker 1: gags them with tape which is either electrical or surgical,

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Speaker 1: again depending on the source of the story. Mr Cruel

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Speaker 1: then ties the boy to the bed with nylon cord,

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Speaker 1: blindfolds and gags him with the same tape. And then

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Speaker 1: the girl was blindfolded and maybe gagged but maybe not

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Speaker 1: as well. And this is you know, surgical tape straight

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Speaker 1: on the eyes, so like not comfortable for any anybody involved.

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Speaker 1: He says he's a robber. He says he wants cash

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Speaker 1: and also a first aid kit. He also said he

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Speaker 1: was going to take a shower and take some of

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Speaker 1: the father's clothes because he was a similar size to

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Speaker 1: the father, and he also wanted to shave, and he

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Speaker 1: wanted some food. Mr Cruel took some clothes out of

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Speaker 1: the wardrobe that was in the parents bedroom and then

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Speaker 1: told the parents to get into the wardrobe. He covered

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Speaker 1: them with a blanket. He then apparently tried to use

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Speaker 1: the phone in the bedroom, but it didn't connect, although

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Speaker 1: again I'm not I'm not totally clear on how. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they were blindfolded and covered with a blanket, so I'm

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Speaker 1: not really sure how. I feel like there was a

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Speaker 1: not a lot of narration by perpetrator going on. All right,

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Speaker 1: I've got a call hello click back in the back

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Speaker 1: in the day too, that when people actually had phones

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Speaker 1: that had handsets that went into the receiver, so everybody

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Speaker 1: knew what the sound of a phone being. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: just wasn't sure how well you would be able to

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Speaker 1: hear that necessary if you had a hard time with

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Speaker 1: it with your dial tone. Don't know if you guys

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Speaker 1: remember the buttons a few times, so maybe that's what

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Speaker 1: he was doing, was hitting the button so it didn't connect.

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Speaker 1: And then Mr Cruel went to check all of the

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Speaker 1: other rooms in the house. And then he came back

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Speaker 1: and actually placed a call, this time which apparently connected.

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Speaker 1: During this connected connected. Yeah, during this call, he called

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Speaker 1: someone a bozo and threatened the person on the other line,

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Speaker 1: telling them that they'd have to move their own kids

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Speaker 1: or something of that nature. After he hung up, he

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Speaker 1: closed the wardrobe door and locked the parents in. Then

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Speaker 1: he turned on a radio in the master bedroom very

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Speaker 1: very loudly to a station that is identified, and then

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Speaker 1: took the girl into the bathroom. And this is where

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Speaker 1: they're not nice stuff begins. Yes, it actually turned out

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Speaker 1: that this was his real motive. He was not there

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Speaker 1: to be a thief, though he did take a few

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Speaker 1: items from the house, but his real motive was to

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Speaker 1: rape an assault the eleven year old girl who He

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Speaker 1: did this over the course of two hours. He carried

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Speaker 1: out his attack on the girl kind of over this

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Speaker 1: course of two hours, mostly in the bathroom, but also

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Speaker 1: in the lounge room. He took breaks to rummage through

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Speaker 1: the family's belongings. He took a break to eat some

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Speaker 1: cold Lamb biscuits, milk, and orange juice. He made the

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Speaker 1: girl floss and brush her teeth and bathe twice once

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Speaker 1: after the first assault and then once right before he

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Speaker 1: left the house, which basically obliterated all forensic evidence that

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Speaker 1: would have existed of his attack on her. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: General Hospital then took her to a spare bedroom after

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Speaker 1: two hours, loosely tied her up on the bed and

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Speaker 1: told her that she could count to one hundred and

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Speaker 1: then free herself and her family. She told the police

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Speaker 1: that she waited to hear the door close and then

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Speaker 1: rand free her parents and as I said, they her

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Speaker 1: name is not Jill. She's identified as Jill. That's not

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Speaker 1: her actual name. But there are reports that Mr Cruel

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Speaker 1: called her Kate a number of times, which is also

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Speaker 1: not her name, nor is it represented that that's close

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Speaker 1: to her name. So he was calling her the wrong name.

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Speaker 1: What do it mean? I bet the police thought about

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Speaker 1: that a lot, and I think they did. Yeah, he

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Speaker 1: actually had asked her name when the whole family was

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Speaker 1: tied up in the master bedroom, so he was given

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Speaker 1: her actual real name, But he was calling her Kate,

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Speaker 1: which probably means something, but we don't know what. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Obviously the police were called immediately. They found, as I

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Speaker 1: bet you can guess, almost zero evidence or clues. When

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Speaker 1: the family said that Mr Rule had placed a phone call,

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Speaker 1: they actually thought, you know, of course this phone number

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Speaker 1: dialed could at least lead us to a person who

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Speaker 1: had a conversation with Mr Cruel, But it turned out

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Speaker 1: that a call had never actually been placed, that Mr

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Speaker 1: Cruel had faked it, which is why he had you know,

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Speaker 1: blindfolded everyone before he placed this call, he picked up

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Speaker 1: the receiver and maybe dial like he there was no

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Speaker 1: number that connected. He must have picked up the receiver

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Speaker 1: and you know, pushed the the things back down what

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Speaker 1: are those things called the receiver button backed down so

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Speaker 1: that it didn't actually place a call, and then dial

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Speaker 1: the call and totally fabricated a half of a conversation

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Speaker 1: just to throw everybody off the trail, which is which

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Speaker 1: it does end up. The whole kit thing was probably deliberate.

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Speaker 1: I would guess that as well, that it was deliberate. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I also have the impression that Mr Cruel was

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Speaker 1: intentionally trying to give the impression that the rape of

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Speaker 1: the eleven year old girl was actually a cry of

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Speaker 1: opportunity instead of a meticulously planned crime, which it actually was.

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Speaker 1: You know, that he was trying to give the impression

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Speaker 1: that he just broke in and then happened to see

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Speaker 1: an eleven year old girl and rape her because she

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Speaker 1: was well, since I'm here, right, and then you know,

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Speaker 1: leave with stuff. But he didn't steal enough stuff for

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Speaker 1: that to make sense. There was like very little value

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Speaker 1: in what he stole, well plus two hours, you know,

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Speaker 1: even for a crime of opportunity. Seems like a lot

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Speaker 1: of times a girl. Yeah, yeah, I actually think that

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Speaker 1: a lot of that time was spent in cleaning her.

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Speaker 1: Could have been Yeah, if he's as meticulous as he

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Speaker 1: seems to be, and based on things that happened later on,

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Speaker 1: I have a feeling that a knowing a man's biology

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Speaker 1: and be knowing how long it probably takes to clean

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Speaker 1: somebody thoroughly to your satisfaction. For a guy that goes

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Speaker 1: to these lengths, he probably spent a lot of time

258
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Speaker 1: scrubbing this girl down. Yeah, and that I think that's accurate.

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Speaker 1: The other really interest same thing here is that despite

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Speaker 1: the mask, the family was able to give kind of

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Speaker 1: a description. They described the man as about five eight

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Speaker 1: to five eleven, about Steve's hite. Yeah, slim build with

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Speaker 1: brownish grayish whitish hair not like me, and uh, bushy

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Speaker 1: gray eyebrows. I'm not totally sure how that was. I

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Speaker 1: guess it maybe was sticking through the mask. They're kind

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Speaker 1: of knit. Well, No, the eyeholes. That's why that drawing

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Speaker 1: is so scary is because he had actually tailored it,

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Speaker 1: so the eye holes were literally just there, maybe quarter

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Speaker 1: size holes that he had sewn together with white there

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Speaker 1: it was a navy blue mask that he used white

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Speaker 1: material on, and then he had actually sown yeah sorry,

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Speaker 1: white thread on and then so you can see the

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Speaker 1: stitch marks that kind of looks like a coralined all almost,

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Speaker 1: and then he'd actually sewn basically like netting or something

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Speaker 1: behind the eyes and the mouth so they would further

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Speaker 1: protect him from leaving any kind of hair. Was like

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Speaker 1: Spider Man's mask, yeah, but way scarier. The mouth hoole

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Speaker 1: was also just a quarters I mean, it was just

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Speaker 1: three quarter size holes in this mask. It was it's

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Speaker 1: super super creepy, super creepy. So but I would assume

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Speaker 1: that maybe there was some hair sticking out through his

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Speaker 1: mask somewhere, which he could have actually like you know,

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Speaker 1: placed in there as another red herring. He could have.

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Speaker 1: It's true, absolutely could have, despite the grayish whitish hair

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Speaker 1: and bushy gray eyebrows. They said that they thought that

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Speaker 1: Mr Cruel was actually in his mid twenties. He apparently

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Speaker 1: had musty smelling breath. He did eat lamb biscuits, milk,

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Speaker 1: and orange juice. Well he had musty breath before then,

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Speaker 1: well he might have had lamb. And then he apparently

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Speaker 1: also had a deep gruff voice that sounded uneducated, and

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Speaker 1: they said he had no accent, which of course means

292
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Speaker 1: he had an Australian accent. He had an accent appropriate

293
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Speaker 1: for the area. With almost nothing to go on, this

294
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,120
Speaker 1: case went cold quickly and it seemed to have been

295
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:12,280
Speaker 1: a one, one time attack. There was some speculation again

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Speaker 1: that Mr Cruel had actually seen the family in a

297
00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:19,000
Speaker 1: newspaper because they had been featured a couple of weeks before.

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Speaker 1: Was that article about I don't know we're hearing about

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00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:27,440
Speaker 1: I suspect they don't talk about it because yeah, yeah,

300
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Speaker 1: well this is not the only time that somebody is

301
00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:33,280
Speaker 1: supposedly in the paper ahead of time. No it's not,

302
00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:38,080
Speaker 1: it's not. Let's talk about that, because despite the you know,

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Speaker 1: apparent one time nature of this attack, it turns out, no,

304
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,879
Speaker 1: that's not the case. Unfortunately happen. Yeah, a year and

305
00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:53,479
Speaker 1: a few months later, in December. On December, the police

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00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:57,480
Speaker 1: found out that Mr Cruel was actually a serial offender.

307
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Speaker 1: The previous night on the six the Will's family was comprised,

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00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,440
Speaker 1: which is comprised of John and Julie and their four daughters.

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Speaker 1: We're on their way home. They lived in Ringwood, which

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Speaker 1: is another suburb of Melbourne, and they apparently arrived home

311
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Speaker 1: at PM. The girls, of course, went promptly to bed.

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Speaker 1: The oldest one was ten. Her name is Sharon, so

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Speaker 1: they were young. That was late. That's late to be up.

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Speaker 1: The girls all slept in one room on two sets

315
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Speaker 1: of bunk beds, and then John and Julie say that

316
00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,040
Speaker 1: they stayed up and tell about one am. And then

317
00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:34,160
Speaker 1: John tried to go to sleep, but he couldn't, so

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Speaker 1: he got up and did a puzzle and tell about

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Speaker 1: four fifty am. He says, it's so weird. I'll put

320
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Speaker 1: your right to sleep. That's a weird thing to do.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I guess this is before the internet, so

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Speaker 1: dinking around on Facebook or whatever is in an option.

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Speaker 1: But I wouldn't think to just sit up in the

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Speaker 1: middle of the night and put together a puzzle. I

325
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Speaker 1: would because it's boring. You might go to sleep, you know.

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Speaker 1: I mean to be kind of some people are into people, Okay, okay, anyway,

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Speaker 1: almost exactly thirty minutes later, so at Mr Cruel came

328
00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:19,600
Speaker 1: bursting in to John and Julie's bedroom. He just threw

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Speaker 1: the light on and brandished a gun. He was still

330
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,560
Speaker 1: wearing that same navy blue mask. Julie screamed, but Mr

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00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:27,840
Speaker 1: Cruel said that he was going to shoot John if

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Speaker 1: she didn't stop, so she stopped because she loves her husband.

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00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,800
Speaker 1: He then had them, just like the last couple, lie

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00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,720
Speaker 1: on their stomachs and bound their wrists. This time he

335
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,520
Speaker 1: didn't put them in handcuffs first. He just immediately hog

336
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,280
Speaker 1: tied them. I guess there's not hog tying because there's

337
00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:44,639
Speaker 1: no there was no connection between the arms and legs.

338
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,240
Speaker 1: But he found their arms and legs with copper electrical

339
00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,200
Speaker 1: wire with the same unique knot. Again, he claimed to

340
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,600
Speaker 1: be a thief. He then entered the girl's room. Sharon

341
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:57,800
Speaker 1: was the oldest of the four girls. She was ten.

342
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,080
Speaker 1: She was taken from her bed and I heard I

343
00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:03,879
Speaker 1: read her account and she said she was awoken by

344
00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,520
Speaker 1: her mom's scream but just kind of laid in her bed,

345
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,880
Speaker 1: and then she heard Mr Cruel come into her room

346
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,880
Speaker 1: and she pretended to be asleep still, which is smart, right,

347
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:15,679
Speaker 1: And he left and she heard him walk around the

348
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:17,840
Speaker 1: house and then come back and say, Sharon, get up.

349
00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,639
Speaker 1: So he knew her name, and so at that point

350
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Speaker 1: she was like, Okay, I have to get up, So

351
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,240
Speaker 1: she got up, and he did not ask the parents

352
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:31,960
Speaker 1: what the kid's names were, not reportedly. Mr Cruel selected

353
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,560
Speaker 1: some of her clothes to take with him, then took

354
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,719
Speaker 1: Sharon out into the living room, grabbed one of John's

355
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:39,920
Speaker 1: coats and had her put it on over her nighty,

356
00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,480
Speaker 1: and then carried her outside and put her down. When

357
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:45,800
Speaker 1: he put her down, she started to scream again. So

358
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,040
Speaker 1: he actually shoved a ball into her mouth, which is yeah, well,

359
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:50,880
Speaker 1: it was just a ball. It was like a rubber ball,

360
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,680
Speaker 1: but you'll see people describe it as a ball gag,

361
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,080
Speaker 1: which is a different thing these days. Yeah, he's depending

362
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,320
Speaker 1: on the community you frequent. Yes, he said, if you

363
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,119
Speaker 1: promise not scream, I'll take that ball out, and she

364
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,720
Speaker 1: said yeah. So he took the ball out, and then

365
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,040
Speaker 1: he blindfolded her, maybe with tape, maybe with something else,

366
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,160
Speaker 1: and then placed some material she thought was like tied

367
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:19,400
Speaker 1: or glued together over her head over the blindfold that

368
00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,080
Speaker 1: we that she thinks was tape. He tried to confuse

369
00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:24,640
Speaker 1: her by sometimes carrying her and sometimes making her walk

370
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,080
Speaker 1: until they got to a car. So this one is

371
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:29,840
Speaker 1: already different in that the last attack took place in

372
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,919
Speaker 1: the home this time, he's actually abducting Sharon, taking her

373
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,480
Speaker 1: somewhere else, taking her somewhere else. He put Sharon in

374
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 1: the passenger side of the car and had her get

375
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,639
Speaker 1: on the floor of the passenger side. Sharon said that

376
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,920
Speaker 1: she thought it was an old car, and he drove

377
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,600
Speaker 1: for a little bit and then paused and said, Sharon,

378
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,560
Speaker 1: can you see And she said yes because she could,

379
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 1: And so he reinforced her blindfold um by like taping

380
00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,040
Speaker 1: it tighter, and then put a blanket over her. To

381
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,479
Speaker 1: keep shaking my head. It's mostly because I just I know,

382
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 1: I know, I know. He He continued to reassure her

383
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,960
Speaker 1: that he wasn't going to hurt her again. Kind of

384
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,719
Speaker 1: this weird. I don't know why you're telling her this,

385
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:14,719
Speaker 1: but I think he didn't want her to be scared.

386
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:16,880
Speaker 1: I guess. I'm not sure what a guy. He's trying

387
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,400
Speaker 1: to encourage complacence. So it's interesting and we'll talk about

388
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,639
Speaker 1: this at the end when we talked about how Sharon

389
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,920
Speaker 1: described him. But there's some interesting stuff going on here.

390
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,399
Speaker 1: But he just said he was going to ransom her

391
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,359
Speaker 1: for money, basically, So don't worry, I'm not gonna hurt you.

392
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:33,199
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna hurt you. I just kidnapped you. I

393
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,200
Speaker 1: just want money. Well, that's always reassuring. This, of course,

394
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,320
Speaker 1: turned out to be not true. He unloaded her from

395
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 1: the car and carried her into the house and laid

396
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 1: her on the bed. She was able to describe the

397
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:45,800
Speaker 1: house in detail. I'm not going to go too far,

398
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 1: but she counted how many steps it took for her

399
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 1: to get from the car two stairs, and then counted

400
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 1: how many steps up it was to the house, and

401
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,879
Speaker 1: what side of the house the driveway was on. I

402
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 1: meant he was very, very aware. Yeah, well, I think

403
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 1: you would remember this sort of thing. Well, I don't know,

404
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,639
Speaker 1: because a lot of people those details disappear because the brain,

405
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,920
Speaker 1: Your brain just blocks that crap out. It's the saying

406
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,640
Speaker 1: of the word, but it just shuts down. She was sick,

407
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:17,640
Speaker 1: and I want to bring the Peelis police back here

408
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 1: to bust it. I think, yeah, And I think probably

409
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 1: the these memories are the things she was thinking about

410
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 1: instead of the other things that happened to her later

411
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 1: as you try to get through. Very good point. Yeah.

412
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 1: So he got her into the house and replaced her

413
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:36,720
Speaker 1: tape glue whatever blindfold with like iPads, like medical iPads,

414
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 1: you know those kind of the metal in the gauze iPads,

415
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 1: But I mean iPads this in your eye, in your

416
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 1: head because something else. No, No, I think actually I

417
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 1: think they're just like cotton. They make these little cotton

418
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 1: pads that go over your eye and they don't have

419
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 1: the metal or Okay, they're just basically the same thing though,

420
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 1: it's the cotton underside of what I'm Yeah, it's just

421
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,600
Speaker 1: a little cotton. It's basically just a cotton swab for

422
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 1: your your eyes. It's a cotton pirate iPad. And then

423
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: he gently taped that so it was more comfortable for her,

424
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,159
Speaker 1: turned the radio on, and ran a bath. He had

425
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 1: Sharon floss and brush her teeth and Bathe then returned

426
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 1: her to the bedroom. She heard the radio on the

427
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:16,719
Speaker 1: radio that it was seven am at that point, and

428
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 1: was able to identify the radio station, not that that

429
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 1: really helps anything. She also said that she heard some

430
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 1: airplanes fly overhead. Mr Cruel then raped and assaulted her

431
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 1: and then made her a vegemmite sandwich with a glass

432
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:34,160
Speaker 1: of milk. And that's why he's called Mr Cruel the vegeom. Yeah,

433
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,120
Speaker 1: he said he was going to leave. By the way,

434
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 1: you buy a vegeomine anywhere in the States. I've been

435
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 1: hearing about it for years. I've never actually go to

436
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 1: the Australian grocery. Okay, he so he said he was leaving,

437
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,920
Speaker 1: so he leashed her to the bed with some sort

438
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 1: of harness around her neck. Lash. I've heard leash. I've

439
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 1: heard it. I've heard it described as a very crude

440
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,440
Speaker 1: harness of some kind. I mean, you know, think of

441
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 1: a dog caller, but something that some weirdo just makes

442
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:08,160
Speaker 1: in his basement on his own as well, although granted

443
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 1: nobody ever saw it right, they just felt it right.

444
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:13,120
Speaker 1: But I mean, you know, if some guy is trying

445
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 1: to figure out how to attach fabric to material or

446
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 1: to metal to then be able to lock it and

447
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 1: chaine it, like that would be why he's described his

448
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 1: crude and felt probably that would probably was not very comfortable.

449
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 1: He left the radio and while he was gone to

450
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,439
Speaker 1: that same channel and now here again is one of

451
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 1: those instances where you think got These girls are just

452
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 1: especially Sharon, like this is incredible. She is really gutsy.

453
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 1: She while he's gone, manages to lift her blindfold, so

454
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 1: she conceived the inside of the room, so she is

455
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: actually able to describe for the police, like in great

456
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:54,719
Speaker 1: detail everything about the room, including most disturbingly, a wooden

457
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: tripod with a camera setup that was filming the bed

458
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 1: that she was leashed to, or was set up to film.

459
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,199
Speaker 1: It wasn't filming. Well, I was going to say, I

460
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 1: don't know that this was necessarily a video camera. It

461
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: might have just been a still camera. I think it

462
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 1: was a video camera. I mean, this is the time

463
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 1: where you could tell very distinctly between a video camera,

464
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 1: and I am not in a disagreement of that, but

465
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 1: I've never seen it explicitly said what kind of camera

466
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,400
Speaker 1: she saw. That's why I say that. Okay, that's fair. Yes,

467
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 1: it's probably a good thing if you if you filmed

468
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 1: all this stuff, because if they already catch up with him,

469
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 1: he'll probably still have videos. And again we'll talk about

470
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 1: the great way to lock his ass up for a

471
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 1: long long time. Yeah, for real. Mr Cruel returned. He

472
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: bathed and clean Sharon again, and then raped her again,

473
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 1: and then bathed her again, then leashed her to the bed,

474
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 1: but he checked on her often. He fed her and

475
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 1: took her to the bathroom as needed. He asked her

476
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 1: if she was comfortable. I mean, yeah, I know, of

477
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:57,360
Speaker 1: course I'm comfortable. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't think so. Finally,

478
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: after eighteen hours, he instructed of her to take a

479
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 1: shower instead of a bath. He washed her hair and

480
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 1: her body very well, clipped her fingernails and toenails, then

481
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: flost and brushed her teeth again. Then he dressed her

482
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 1: in a garbage bag. I think more than one. He

483
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 1: had her stand on a garbage bag and then step

484
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,879
Speaker 1: into a garbage bag that had holes cut for legs,

485
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: and then he put another garbage bag over her head,

486
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 1: then cut holes so she could breathe because safety. Third,

487
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: I guess it is. He then put her in the

488
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 1: car again, you know, on the floor in the passenger side,

489
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 1: and apparently he had trouble starting it, telling Shannon that

490
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: stolen car sometimes won't start, Which is I think this

491
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 1: is a red herring. Well, it's it's a little logical

492
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,160
Speaker 1: in that, you know, if you've hot wired a car

493
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 1: and you don't have the key for it, it's not

494
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 1: probably not going to start as easily as just turning

495
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:58,640
Speaker 1: the key. I'm not so sure. I don't I think

496
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 1: it's a red herring. Just that's just me. He drove

497
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: for quote a long time, sometimes fast and sometimes slow

498
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: unquote per Shannon, Sharon Shannon, we've been saying, Sharon. I

499
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: think we've been saying Sharon Shannon. Okay, this is probably

500
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 1: obviously to confuse her. He parked, picked her up, and

501
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 1: ran with her for some distance, stopping often to take breaks.

502
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 1: He's out of shape, yes. Finally he put her down

503
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: and told her how to get to a store nearby.

504
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 1: He removed the blindfold, which was the trash bag that

505
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: he had cut holes into. He removed it and said,

506
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 1: you know, don't turn around or else I'll and ran away.

507
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 1: That must have been a really weird scene for anybody

508
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: to watch. You didn't know what was going on. It

509
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 1: was a midnight a full grown man running away from

510
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: a small figure in plastic bags. No, it was exactly

511
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: eighteen hours after she had taken all She had actually

512
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 1: been dropped off at the Bayswater High School, which is

513
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: about three miles from her house. And like I said,

514
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: it was just after midnight and Shannon approached a woman

515
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 1: who was at a bus stop, and she reportedly, very

516
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 1: calmly walked up to this woman in trash bags and

517
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: said my name is Shannon Wills, and I was taken

518
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: from my home earlier this morning. A man left me

519
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: here and told me to go ring home. Yet again,

520
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: police were unable to find any clues or forensic evidence.

521
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: The Will's family description of Mr Cruel is pretty in

522
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 1: line with the previous family's description. Other than the voice,

523
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: Shannon said that Mr Cruel seemed to display some level

524
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 1: of care and did not describe him gruff at all,

525
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: and like the unidentified girl first one. Yet, Shannon had

526
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 1: been in the newspaper just a few weeks prior to

527
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: her abduction. You know, I wonder if the gruff. I mean,

528
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 1: we're already talking about the red Herrings a little bit,

529
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 1: but it makes me wonder if in that first instance

530
00:29:53,680 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: it was kind of like what Christian Bale playing Batman. Yeah, yeah,

531
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 1: I absolutely think it was. I think it also was

532
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: to kind of play into that role of I'm a thief.

533
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 1: Yeah I'm a bad guy. Well he is a bad guy,

534
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 1: but you know, I'm a different kind of bad guy

535
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: than he is, which I don't think he identifies himself

536
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: as a bad guy. Yeah, really creepy bad guy. Next up,

537
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 1: Brian and Rosemary Lioness were set to move out of

538
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 1: their rented house on July four, which is not a

539
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 1: holiday in Australia. Why not because they did not patriotic

540
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: Not that's true. Yes, they're not patriotic Americans. They along

541
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: with their two daughters, were a month away from moving

542
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 1: back to England and had planned to rent an apartment

543
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: in Melbourne for the last month inland in Australia. Yeah,

544
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: July three, at about eleven fifteen pm, Mr Cruel forced

545
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 1: his way into Brian and Rosemary's bedroom via the window.

546
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: Brian Rosemary, however, we're out at a farewell gathering, a

547
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: fact that Mr Cruel was likely very aware of. At

548
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 1: eleven twenty pm, he woke Nicola up by tapping her

549
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 1: on the head with his knife. This is the one

550
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: that you were thinking of, Steve. The parents were not home,

551
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: so yeah, but Nicola was home with her sister Fiona.

552
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: Once again he claimed to be a common thief. He

553
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: actually did hog tie Fiona up, this time on the

554
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 1: parents bed, and then told Nicola to get her school uniform,

555
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: that he had her dress in something other than her

556
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: school uniform and she kept her pajama bottoms on as

557
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: well and then Mr Cruel asked to Nicola and Fiona

558
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 1: about their father's employment, then told Fiona that he wanted

559
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: dollars ransom for Nicola. He went around the house and

560
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 1: cut all of the phone lines with a knife, then

561
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 1: told Fiona that he called in the morning with instructions

562
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 1: on how to pay, So obviously he wasn't actually intending

563
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 1: to call in the morning. Yeah, they better call me

564
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 1: once they get the repair man out here. Well, I'm

565
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: going to call them when he didn't even leave, you know,

566
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: and he that I'm gonna call. Yeah, it might be

567
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: quicker in Australia. I now here in America back in

568
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: those days, took the phone company a while. You get

569
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: aft to your house back in the good old days.

570
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: Fiona said that she looked at the bedside clock and

571
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: remembered that Mr Cruel left with Nicola at eleven forty

572
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:19,239
Speaker 1: seven pm exactly. He also stole the family's car. Well,

573
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: they had two cars because mom and Dad were in Yes. Yeah,

574
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 1: he had Nicola again kneel on the passenger side floor

575
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 1: just like Shannon, and he pulled her base cap baseball

576
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 1: cap low over her eyes. She was apparently wearing a

577
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: baseball cap. He drove for a short distance and then

578
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: they got out of the family car and into a

579
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,719
Speaker 1: different car, where he blindfolded Nicola with tape and then

580
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 1: put a sche mask over that one or a balacava lava. Yeah,

581
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 1: once again, Mr Cruel took Nicola to a house she

582
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: heard the radio playing. Once again, he removed the tape

583
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 1: from her eyes and gently put iPads over her eyes

584
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: as a blindfold. He took it to the bathroom flost

585
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: and brushed her teeth baits, then calling her nikki raped

586
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: an assault at her, maybe he's something again, leashed her

587
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: to the bed around the neck, just like he had

588
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: done with Shannon, and then he fell asleep next to her.

589
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: That guy is pretty sure of himself. Yeah, I was

590
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: gonna say all of the things that this guy has

591
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: done so far, that is yeah, for some reason, yes, Yeah,

592
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 1: because he's gonna he's spooning this poor, chained up a

593
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 1: little girl as if there's some actual intimacy between them.

594
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: That's that's what just turns my gut so much on

595
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 1: there she was too, I mean, doesn't matter still terms,

596
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 1: but yeah, he had actually turned the radio off while

597
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 1: he went to sleep, so there was no noise and

598
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 1: of course, Nicola did not sleep that night. Yeah, she

599
00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: didn't hear any noise until she heard really loud airplanes

600
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 1: flying overhead. So she estimated there were about seven or

601
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 1: nine of them that flew overhead in a relatively short

602
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 1: span of time. Basically, what she was describing was like

603
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 1: the landing pattern of planes, like an airport or an

604
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 1: army base or exactly something like that. That's actually a

605
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 1: good information, Yeah it is. Mr Cruel slept and tell

606
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 1: about ten am when he turned the radio back on.

607
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 1: She heard, you know, the radio said the time. He

608
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 1: raped her again at eleven am, then fell asleep again

609
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 1: next to her. Then at about twelve thirty pm, so

610
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 1: noon thirty, he took her into the bathroom where he

611
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 1: raped her again, then bathed her again. Then he told

612
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,320
Speaker 1: her that he had a schoolgirl fantasy and that he

613
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 1: had followed her home from school, which I think is

614
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 1: also a red herring. This guy just says whatever random

615
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: bs pops into his head. He does. He dressed her

616
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: in her uniform and then raped her in the kitchen.

617
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 1: Then he gave her a glass of water and then

618
00:34:57,680 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 1: leased her to the bed. She fell asleep for a

619
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: few hours because like of course you would. And then

620
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: she said she woke up again to the sound of

621
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 1: airplanes prior to ten am. Again after ten am, you know,

622
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: when she woke up and the radio was turned back on.

623
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 1: He then dressed her in a tennis skirt that he

624
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 1: had brought. He actually told her the night before he

625
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 1: was going to address her in the tennis skirt and

626
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: is but so he told her that the night before,

627
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: and then the next morning he dressed her in the

628
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 1: tennis skirt and raped her and then he started calling

629
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 1: her missy. At about two pm that day, he finally

630
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 1: released her to the bed and said he wasn't going

631
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: to quote unquote assault her anymore. He tied her legs

632
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 1: together with wire, gave her some food and water, and

633
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 1: then told her a friend and he were going to

634
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: go look for places to drop her off. He had

635
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: a newspaper with him and he said it was the Sun,

636
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 1: which the Harold Harold Sun, which is where this was

637
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:59,760
Speaker 1: reported conveniently immediately enough, at about ten pm, Mr cruel

638
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,360
Speaker 1: Nicola if she was hungry, and said that he was

639
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: going to pack all the food away, meaning that this

640
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: was not a usual place of living that he packed

641
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 1: food in, and he was going to pack it out,

642
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 1: it would make sense not to bring her to his house. Yep,

643
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: absolutely what. He had Nicola stand on a sheet and

644
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 1: then showered her and cleaned her body like he had Shannon's.

645
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: He reportedly again said something to his friend that was

646
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 1: also there with him, But investigators agree that this is

647
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,959
Speaker 1: just one of those attempts to derail the investigation again,

648
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 1: because Nicola was pretty sure that there was no one

649
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 1: else there. She didn't hear. You know, it was a

650
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 1: small house where she was being kept, and she didn't

651
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 1: hear anybody else come in or And additional to that,

652
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 1: only one did he say anything to his friend, and

653
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: his friend didn't say anything at all, So I don't

654
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 1: think there was actually another person there with him. So

655
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 1: one thing you said here that you said about her

656
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 1: and the prior victim that we didn't bring up in

657
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,720
Speaker 1: the very first one is her standing on a sheet

658
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: in the bathroom, if I remember correct, the very first girl,

659
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: he trying to think of delicately how to say this

660
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: when he was with her in the bathroom and he

661
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: assaulted her. I seemed to remember there was something about

662
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,760
Speaker 1: the fact that he had laid down a shower curtain

663
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: or sheet or a towel or something, so that I'm

664
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 1: guessing for the idea that his footprints or shoeprints or

665
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 1: whatever wouldn't be liftable or retained in any way. So

666
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: this is He's like, there there are things that seemed

667
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 1: to be happening every single time. Yeah, I mean things

668
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: like flossing, things like cutting their finger and toenails like that.

669
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 1: You know, forensic evidence and especially public knowledge of forensic

670
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 1: evidence was not that great in the early nineties. So

671
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 1: for him to know he was time traveler, that he

672
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 1: I mean maybe honestly the worst use for time travel

673
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: ever could have worked for a police department. Maybe fantic

674
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 1: kind of specialist guy. So he was gonna pack it away.

675
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: He he's going to pack all the food away. He

676
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 1: cleaned Shannon again or sorry Nicola again, said something to

677
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 1: his friend which is wrong. Then he replaces her iPads

678
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: with tape. You know, he takes the iPads off and

679
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 1: tapes her eyes shut, blindfolds her with tape. Then he

680
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: puts her clothes on her. But I guess it was

681
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:30,359
Speaker 1: a different set of clothes that he hadn't had any

682
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:32,719
Speaker 1: contact with, because he did take a number of sets

683
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 1: of clothes from her house when he first took her

684
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: from her home. Yes, and then again you know, put

685
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 1: her on the floor of the passenger side, and then

686
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 1: again had car trouble again, saying stolen cars often don't

687
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:51,320
Speaker 1: turn on, which okay. They drove for a while and

688
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 1: then yeah, they stopped for gas. Well, she thought they

689
00:38:55,880 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 1: stopped for gas. She wasn't sure because less it was

690
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 1: a self serve or or something like, I'm sure it

691
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 1: was self serve. Oregan is one of the only places

692
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 1: where it's not self serve. So he stopped for gas

693
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 1: apparently maybe maybe not. And he had actually wrapped her

694
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 1: in a blanket when they were at the house, so

695
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 1: they stopped finally after they got guess they stopped for gas,

696
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 1: and then they drove around a little bit. Then he

697
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: removed the sheet after they got out of the car

698
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,839
Speaker 1: and took the sheet away from her, and then they

699
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: walked about five minutes, I guess, she thought, And then

700
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 1: Mr Cruel had her change her clothes again standing on

701
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 1: that sheet, and then took all the clothes away that

702
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 1: it would have maybe had evidence from his house on it,

703
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 1: And then they walked for about three more minutes and

704
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 1: he i guess. He looked around like he was going

705
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 1: to stop, and then he said, no, this location isn't

706
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 1: good for some reason. And then they walked for another

707
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: three or four minutes and then he said, okay, now

708
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 1: count to a it. He took her blindfold off, said

709
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: count a hundred and then you know, go call the police.

710
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,879
Speaker 1: She had been again left about three miles away from

711
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,800
Speaker 1: her house. It was two am on the morning of

712
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 1: her four birthday. She had been held by Mr Cruel

713
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 1: for exactly fifty hours. She knocked on the door of

714
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: a man like they were in kind of a neighborhood

715
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,279
Speaker 1: where she was dropped. So she walked up to a

716
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 1: door and knocked and a man answered it, and she said,

717
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 1: can I call my dad? And obviously her picture had

718
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: been everywhere, and he was like, um, yes, of course

719
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 1: you can. And they called the police and then six

720
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 1: days later Nicolas's family left Australia forever. Yeah. Nicola and

721
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 1: Fiona described Mr Cruel to have a beer belly, which

722
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,879
Speaker 1: is different from the other descriptions. The other descriptions had

723
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 1: him very slim. I gotta tell you that beer Billy's

724
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,360
Speaker 1: come on pretty easily. Yeah, And it had been a

725
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: year or so since the last attack, it's easy the

726
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 1: fake of beer belly to true true story. And uh

727
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 1: he was, but he was again described as having the gruff,

728
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 1: uneducated voice, and apparently he also tended to add use

729
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 1: to the end of sentences like lay down on the bed,

730
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 1: use the word you, not the letter you. Yeah, yeah,

731
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:24,800
Speaker 1: which is why I gave you an example. Yeah, that's

732
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 1: Those are really the only discrepancies between the other three

733
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 1: descriptions of Mr. Cruel because he didn't use a lot

734
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: what's the other one? But again, I I'm I don't

735
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:37,840
Speaker 1: think it's beyond the realm of possibility that he was

736
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 1: just putting on voices. So yeah, all right. Next up

737
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,840
Speaker 1: is Carmen. It's not spelled like you think Karmen is spelled.

738
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 1: It's k r. It's k A R M I E N.

739
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 1: But um. From the news coverage of this case that

740
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,239
Speaker 1: I watched, it sounded like her mom was pronouncing it

741
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: Carmen or something dang close. So her name is Carmen.

742
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna preface this one by saying it's a

743
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 1: little different. And then there is speculation that's actually copycat um,

744
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 1: but we'll talk about that later. Officially, it is the

745
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 1: last known attack by Mr Cruel. On April thirty feet, nineteen,

746
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: thirteen year old Carmen was babysitting her two younger sisters, Carly,

747
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 1: who was nine and Karen, who was seven. Lots of K,

748
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 1: lots of K alliteration here. Yeah, that is a really

749
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:31,760
Speaker 1: terrible thing to do your children. You know why because

750
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,840
Speaker 1: if you ever get mail at the house with first initial,

751
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 1: last name, you don't know whose mail it is. That's

752
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: a good point. I thought about that. I've known people

753
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 1: who have done that. Oh yeah, no, I have it.

754
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 1: Mr Cruel broke into the house at eight forty pm.

755
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 1: Their parents owned three Chinese restaurants in town and they

756
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 1: actually ran them. They didn't just you know own them. Um.

757
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 1: They were fairly wealthy family in the community. Uh. And

758
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,959
Speaker 1: the parents were both working at the restaurant at the time.

759
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 1: Again the operators, yes, and Mr Cruel very likely knew that. Again,

760
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 1: maybe he ate there, he did a lot of research.

761
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 1: Mr Cruel instructed the two younger girls to get into

762
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 1: the cupboard that was in the room that they were

763
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 1: all sleeping in and pushed a bed against the doors,

764
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 1: which you know, locked them in, and then dragged Carmen

765
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: by the hair out of the house, and I know

766
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: that they and I guess I am speculating a bit there,

767
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,359
Speaker 1: but um, she was being held by the hair when

768
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 1: the girls got into the cupboard, so I presumed that

769
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 1: he continued to drive at a departure. Tracker dogs were

770
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 1: unable to track past a nearby road where it's speculated

771
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 1: that Mr Cruel likely parked his car. Carly and Karen

772
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,919
Speaker 1: managed to escape about ten minutes after and called their father,

773
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,720
Speaker 1: and he of course called the police and the search began.

774
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: Mr Cruel, per his m O left a red herring.

775
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: He had spray painted payback Asian drug deal ler on

776
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:02,800
Speaker 1: the front of the family's car that was left in

777
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 1: the in the parking or in the driveway. I am

778
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 1: going to quickly note here that Carmen, she did attend

779
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 1: the same all girls school that Nicola attended. Nicola was

780
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 1: our second victim, write third. Nicola is the most recent

781
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 1: victim we just talked about. And I read somewhere though

782
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 1: I don't remember where, that Mr Cool took Carmen's school

783
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 1: uniform with them when they left, like he did in

784
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 1: with Nicola. Makes sense. The m O changes here drastically,

785
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 1: Carmen was not released after eighteen hours, she was not

786
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 1: released after fifty hours or seventy hours. In fact, she

787
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:50,360
Speaker 1: was not released at all. Well, she wasn't released a

788
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 1: lie tactically, I suppose that's true. Two years after she disappeared,

789
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 1: a man walking his dog saw what he thought was

790
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 1: a human skull in a landfill, and it ended up

791
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 1: being Harman's remains. She had been shot at least three

792
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:05,720
Speaker 1: times in the back of the head and then dumped

793
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 1: in this landfill. Carly and Karen described Mr Cruel in

794
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 1: much the same way that Nicola and Fiona had. They

795
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 1: didn't mention a gruff voice at all, but they did

796
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 1: say that his scheme mask was brown, which depending on

797
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 1: different well it's different than the navy blue one that

798
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 1: had been described in all of the other crimes. Now

799
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: maybe that means that, you know, it was worn out

800
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 1: or it set in the sun for a year. Well yeah,

801
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think it would have faded into brown,

802
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 1: but it was, you know, anyway, it was different, and

803
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:42,839
Speaker 1: so that's another reason that people think that this may

804
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:47,240
Speaker 1: have been a copycat. And of course they the police

805
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 1: did actually investigate the drug dealers paint. They actually for

806
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 1: like three years they did an investigation into the family

807
00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: and there was no correction, nothing, nothing whatsoever. He was

808
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 1: just a legitimate business owner. And the lead investigator makes

809
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:06,919
Speaker 1: a really really good point here with this case as well,

810
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:09,800
Speaker 1: and that is that the family's house was not preserved

811
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 1: as a crime scene. In this instance, a ton of

812
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:18,759
Speaker 1: people came through and you know, basically they were it

813
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:21,400
Speaker 1: was it was a man hunt. It wasn't a crime scene,

814
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 1: so people carried away anything that might have been DNA

815
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 1: well just I mean, like just by like walking over

816
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 1: it or not by physically picking up I have a

817
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:37,360
Speaker 1: feeling that the fact that the daughters called dad, and

818
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:41,360
Speaker 1: Dad called the cops probably after calling somebody else he

819
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,479
Speaker 1: knew to go over to the house, who then called

820
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 1: somebody they knew. So there's a whole swarm of non

821
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:53,359
Speaker 1: investigative type right, and there's also probably people showing up, yeah,

822
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 1: to help take care of the girls because they've just

823
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:59,239
Speaker 1: had something very traumatic happened to them. And overall, you know,

824
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 1: there could have been clues left, though given the Mr

825
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:04,879
Speaker 1: cruel m O, I doubt it that there were any

826
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:07,840
Speaker 1: kind of clues. Yeah, if it's him in this instance

827
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 1: then probably wouldn't have mattered. And Carmen's mother has a

828
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 1: theory about why Carmen was killed when the other girls

829
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:17,800
Speaker 1: were not, and it is that, by all accounts, Carmen

830
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: was very stubborn. Defiant is a really good word. And

831
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 1: Mr Cruel had actually told one of his other victims

832
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: that his freedom was more important than her life. And

833
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:33,799
Speaker 1: Carmen's mother thinks that it's very likely that Carmen fought

834
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 1: back and may have pulled the mask off or otherwise

835
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 1: been able to identify him, so he just angered him enough,

836
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 1: or maybe if she actually recognized his voice and said, hey,

837
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 1: Mr Smith, that's you. Isn't it absolutely possible? What are

838
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 1: you doing? Smithers yea, And actually there's that's a great

839
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 1: little segue, because we're done talking about the victims and

840
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:57,439
Speaker 1: now we're going to talk about series and suspects. It's

841
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 1: here there are actually, Yeah, But the thing we're gonna

842
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:05,919
Speaker 1: talk about first is that there was this task force

843
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 1: called Spectrum that included several FBI investigators as well as

844
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 1: police and other high profile investigators from around the world.

845
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:18,840
Speaker 1: But that that came together to be a part of

846
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:21,799
Speaker 1: this task force. Basically do the one of the most

847
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 1: comprehensive investigations like that has ever taken place. They interviewed

848
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 1: literally twenty seven thousand, not seven thousand men in the

849
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 1: area in conjunction with this case as suspects. This is

850
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 1: a lot like the Naked murders where they just locked

851
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 1: down a section of the city. Every man is drug

852
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 1: in front of the cops and questioned till till he's exhausted,

853
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 1: and then they move on to the next one. Yes. Yeah,

854
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:57,239
Speaker 1: so from extensive interviews of the victims of the families, uh,

855
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:00,360
Speaker 1: just general kind of stuff they put to other this

856
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 1: really comprehensive profile of what the kind of person that

857
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:06,800
Speaker 1: Mr Cruel would have been or or maybe still is

858
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 1: in his real life. By the way, they shouldn't have

859
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 1: called him Mr Cruel. That's that's just too dignified. That's

860
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 1: the newspaper's faults. I should have called a Mr Purvy Pants.

861
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 1: Well they actually called him Spider. Yeah, he had seven

862
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 1: or eight different occurs that he was referred to by,

863
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:27,799
Speaker 1: and Mr Cruel is just the latest one that has

864
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 1: actually taken Something Rapist. It was like the North Something

865
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 1: rapist was one of the more common names until Mr

866
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,839
Speaker 1: Cruel really, I think Mr Cruel is a great name

867
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 1: for him. I think Mr pervy Pass is better, though

868
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:43,839
Speaker 1: that would have made him angry. So since I don't

869
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 1: think we want to do that, Joe, well, let's just

870
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:49,319
Speaker 1: talk about that a little bit because it actually does

871
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 1: pertain to a theory. So can one of you guys

872
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 1: read this profile that they put together so it's not

873
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:58,320
Speaker 1: just an episode of me talking for like twelve Okay,

874
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 1: I gotta put on my FBI. Oh, I didn't know

875
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:06,880
Speaker 1: if you wanted paper rock scissors sport. Okay, boom boom boom.

876
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 1: Uh Wait does that mean I have to Oh I

877
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 1: didn't realize winning. Maybe I had to read it. That's fine,

878
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:19,800
Speaker 1: you got your FBI voice. Okay, in my best FBI voice,

879
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 1: This is gonna be my Batman voice. Mr Cruel was

880
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 1: probably in steady employment, possibly in a management job or

881
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 1: self employed with freedom of movement. It said those who

882
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:32,120
Speaker 1: knew him would not regard him as a monster. He

883
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 1: would probably be considered a good neighbor and might be

884
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:39,760
Speaker 1: involved in community projects. He would have an obsessive, compulsive character,

885
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 1: the type who would immediately wipe his hands if soiled.

886
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:45,360
Speaker 1: He would have taken a great deal of interest in

887
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 1: media coverage, though he probably tried to disguise it. He

888
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 1: would likely go for unexplained drives or walks. He would

889
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:58,320
Speaker 1: have expressed sexual fantasies or shown sexually dysfunctional behavior. His

890
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:02,239
Speaker 1: sexual arousal and gratification would probably be dependent on his

891
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:07,440
Speaker 1: partner playing specific roles, such as dressing in a schoolgirl uniform.

892
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:11,839
Speaker 1: He used terms like bozo, worry ward, and missy when

893
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 1: saying things to some of his victims a k A.

894
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 1: Kitty talk. He could be married or living with a

895
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 1: woman who goes away around school holidays when some of

896
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:24,880
Speaker 1: the attacks occurred, or he could be a teacher himself.

897
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 1: He would be intelligent, well organized. He would seem genuinely

898
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:34,439
Speaker 1: interested in and dedicated to children. He would have displayed children, yes,

899
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 1: unfortunately terrible observation. He would have displayed behavioral changes around

900
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:44,399
Speaker 1: the time of the offenses and on anniversaries or when

901
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:48,400
Speaker 1: publicity was renewed. Those changes would indicate such things as

902
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:53,239
Speaker 1: sleeping disorders, reluctances to go to work, distract distraction, or

903
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:57,280
Speaker 1: different eating and drinking habits. He would disguise his dress

904
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:02,440
Speaker 1: with abnormally rigid behavior. Yeah, thanks, Mr FBI you're welcome.

905
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 1: One thing to note before we start talking about suspects,

906
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 1: We're not going to talk about thousand suspects. This could

907
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:12,240
Speaker 1: have been a really long episode, could have it already

908
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 1: kind of is. But one thing just to note is

909
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:19,439
Speaker 1: that Mr Cruel is a serial offender. And we've talked

910
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:24,400
Speaker 1: about serial offenders before on this show, and basically what

911
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:27,360
Speaker 1: that means is it's unlikely that he would have stopped

912
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 1: these attacks unless he was forced by either death or

913
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:34,759
Speaker 1: moving or some kind of incarceration, or he accomplished what

914
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 1: he wanted, whatever that might be. I guess, yeah, I

915
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 1: think what he wanted was to get his rocks off,

916
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:43,880
Speaker 1: So I don't think I could continue to accomplish that

917
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:46,759
Speaker 1: and their perpetuity by just watching his videos. But there's

918
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 1: also a significant amount of escalation that happens. We can

919
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:53,120
Speaker 1: see even just over the course of even just the

920
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 1: first three, but really with the four there's a there's

921
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:59,360
Speaker 1: a fair amount of escalation. Um The investigator said that

922
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:02,840
Speaker 1: they thought the reason that he stopped was because he

923
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 1: got scared, because he was one of the twenty seven

924
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:08,080
Speaker 1: thousand people that was interviewed, which like if he lived

925
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 1: in the area, of course he was so, yeah, he

926
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:11,759
Speaker 1: and every other guy in the bar. We're like, oh,

927
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:13,400
Speaker 1: you remember that time I got interviewed if I was

928
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:17,759
Speaker 1: Mr Mr Cruel. So there are officially seven men on

929
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:21,360
Speaker 1: a list that is being held by the it's you know,

930
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:27,319
Speaker 1: distributed to all police uh in this area that basically says,

931
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:30,880
Speaker 1: if any attack similar to the Mr. Cruel one happens,

932
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 1: these seven suspects should be arrested immediately or brought into

933
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 1: custody immediately for questioning. But they're apparently thirty two suspects

934
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:45,960
Speaker 1: that cannot officially be eliminated. But they don't have any

935
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:48,879
Speaker 1: evidence to prove that any of them did it either,

936
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:50,920
Speaker 1: So they're not good enough to just immediately go out

937
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 1: and arrest exactly. In fact, none of them. Yeah, and

938
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 1: there's no suspect that is good enough to go out

939
00:53:56,160 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 1: and arrest. Before we get into theory or these I guess,

940
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 1: not theories, but these particular suspects that you have here,

941
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 1: there are some general things that I'm wondering about that

942
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 1: would probably get to now. Yeah, let's do it. Okay,

943
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 1: let's just talk about that's great. There's the question of

944
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:16,840
Speaker 1: the airplanes. Is it one or two of the girls

945
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:20,359
Speaker 1: that were taken and it was released it was too yeah.

946
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:24,400
Speaker 1: So Nicola Shannon was the one who, like right off

947
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:28,120
Speaker 1: the bat said oh, and also I heard airplanes of Alane. Yeah.

948
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:31,440
Speaker 1: And then Nicola was interviewed after she had returned to

949
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 1: England and she said, I heard these are the airplanes

950
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 1: and these are when I heard the airplanes. Because she

951
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 1: was the one who was able to give she actually

952
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:42,239
Speaker 1: counted I don't know how she I guess she must

953
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:44,279
Speaker 1: have been aware of the news. She was thirteen, you know,

954
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:47,239
Speaker 1: she might have been aware of the news. So she

955
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 1: actually went so far as to when she realized that

956
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:53,719
Speaker 1: she was being abducted by Mr Cruel, she counted how

957
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 1: long she was in the car from her house, right,

958
00:54:57,239 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 1: she's the one in Canada's well she no, I mean,

959
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:03,440
Speaker 1: Shannon did that, but she went even further than that,

960
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 1: where she was able to basically give an entire way

961
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:09,239
Speaker 1: out of the house. She said, I counted to this

962
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:11,440
Speaker 1: number until we got to the car, and I think

963
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:13,560
Speaker 1: we were headed in this direction, and then I counted

964
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 1: to this number from the car to the how I mean,

965
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:21,279
Speaker 1: she was like incredibly detailed, but she eventually recalled. So

966
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:23,239
Speaker 1: both of the people, both of the girls who were

967
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 1: held in the house, did recall the airplane? Oh, go ahead,

968
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I was gonna say, and a lot of

969
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:33,200
Speaker 1: airplanes or well, it's a seven seems to be a

970
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 1: number that I've heard in a number of places. But

971
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:40,280
Speaker 1: my question is there's two kinds of planes. There's jets

972
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:43,800
Speaker 1: and propeller planes. And what I'm trying to understand was

973
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 1: it a jet airplane or was it a propeller driven plane,

974
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:51,600
Speaker 1: maybe a small airport versus a large international type. Well,

975
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:54,520
Speaker 1: the reason I say that is that if you've ever

976
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:59,440
Speaker 1: heard airplanes at a distance and there's some other background noise,

977
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 1: and and you've heard motorcycles in the distance, if depending

978
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:07,680
Speaker 1: on what they are, they can sound similar, not the same.

979
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 1: I understand they're identical, but do a girl who's not

980
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:13,680
Speaker 1: on the motorcycle scene, it could sound like an airplane.

981
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:15,959
Speaker 1: So that's the reason I'm asking. It's a good question.

982
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:20,160
Speaker 1: Nicola seems to think that they were on the landing

983
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:23,720
Speaker 1: path of airplanes, so it was so it's less jets

984
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:26,480
Speaker 1: landing well or less of the noise of just the

985
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 1: airplane and actual you can there's sounds of descent. Yes,

986
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:33,279
Speaker 1: that's she seemed to think they were lower than they

987
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:35,520
Speaker 1: should have been, maybe not like right next to the

988
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 1: airport right, but on the flight path into the airport,

989
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:42,000
Speaker 1: and that would also be I guess you know, it's

990
00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:44,399
Speaker 1: the northern part of Melbourne if I remember correctly. Yeah.

991
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:46,839
Speaker 1: But but in addition to that, I mean, it would

992
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 1: make sense that she would hear planes during sometimes and

993
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:51,879
Speaker 1: not others, because you know, they have flight paths based

994
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:54,000
Speaker 1: on time of day and wind pattern and all of

995
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:56,279
Speaker 1: that stuff. So you know, if she heard it just

996
00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:58,719
Speaker 1: kind of in this distinct time in the morning, that's

997
00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 1: when they were getting those planes landed. Shannon, I don't think,

998
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:07,200
Speaker 1: was able to provide a whole lot of detail. But

999
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 1: she was also only held for eighteen hours versus Nicola,

1000
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:12,839
Speaker 1: who was there for fifty. So Nicola had two full

1001
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 1: days to observe the patterns of things, whereas Nicola, I mean,

1002
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 1: Shannon um just she said she heard some airplanes, but

1003
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:25,600
Speaker 1: it wasn't She wasn't held really in the more. I mean,

1004
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:27,920
Speaker 1: she just heard the couple in the morning when she

1005
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:30,360
Speaker 1: was first there, and she was still disoriented. Okay, So

1006
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 1: the next question that I have is probably asking for

1007
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 1: more details than you have or any of us want

1008
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 1: to know my but it is based around the fact

1009
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:46,320
Speaker 1: of the frequency of the assaults that these girls reported

1010
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:51,160
Speaker 1: that they got. I am presuming that they are not

1011
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:59,000
Speaker 1: simply all acts of penetration. Um. The the best description,

1012
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:02,920
Speaker 1: the best description, and the most descriptive that anybody gets

1013
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 1: is they say raped and assaulted. And I suspect that

1014
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 1: that means that there was a varying degree of assault

1015
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:16,040
Speaker 1: that was happening. I don't think it was always necessarily

1016
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 1: one body penetrating the other. It may have been, well,

1017
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:22,160
Speaker 1: it may have been penetrave in that it was an

1018
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 1: object or hand, but it wasn't. I don't think it

1019
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:28,320
Speaker 1: was always necessary. That's the reason I asked because some

1020
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 1: of the what really really schemed me out with some

1021
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:34,760
Speaker 1: of the early articles that I read made it sound

1022
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 1: like this guy was on viagra the whole time, and

1023
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 1: I was like, it was doing it quite a lot. Pretty.

1024
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 1: But I will just go ahead and say that physiology

1025
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 1: in general is a fickle thing. And I know because

1026
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:53,000
Speaker 1: you're talking about a refractory period of some sort. I presume, yes,

1027
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:56,760
Speaker 1: that doesn't always happen, not all. Like I'm sorry to

1028
00:58:57,160 --> 00:59:00,640
Speaker 1: be most meaning to you a fractory period. But in

1029
00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:04,479
Speaker 1: my experience, there are some men out there who don't,

1030
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:08,080
Speaker 1: and especially under the right circumstances, that are extra exciting.

1031
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:12,200
Speaker 1: Sometimes men don't have that period of time and they

1032
00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:15,280
Speaker 1: can get right back into it. Yeah, it does happen.

1033
00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:18,440
Speaker 1: And maybe he wasn't. And obviously this was this guy's big,

1034
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:22,360
Speaker 1: big but I mean even you don't know, maybe he

1035
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:31,320
Speaker 1: was taking vibrate because he was so yeah in the yeah,

1036
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:33,320
Speaker 1: it was in the well know, in the big nineties became,

1037
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:35,120
Speaker 1: but there was other things. There are other things that

1038
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:37,600
Speaker 1: can have the same effect. But okay, so then my

1039
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:43,560
Speaker 1: my last question here is so they say that he

1040
00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:49,360
Speaker 1: couldn't have stopped on his own, and I just well,

1041
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:51,560
Speaker 1: they say he had, you know, he was scared away,

1042
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:54,080
Speaker 1: But that doesn't match up with behavior that we've talked

1043
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:57,600
Speaker 1: about in the past. And I mean, I have a

1044
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:01,640
Speaker 1: theory as to why Harmon was the last one, and

1045
01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:05,640
Speaker 1: it's probably the most disturbing of all the theories out there. Well,

1046
01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 1: I guess my theory about why Carmen is the last

1047
01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:12,760
Speaker 1: one is that his murder of Carmen, in conjunction with

1048
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:16,720
Speaker 1: the extensive nature of the investigation in which he may

1049
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:19,360
Speaker 1: have even been interviewed by the police. Just scared him

1050
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:23,760
Speaker 1: off entirely. Where he it just became you know, like

1051
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:26,640
Speaker 1: he said, his freedom was more important than anything, and

1052
01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:30,520
Speaker 1: it just became too risky for him to continue to

1053
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:33,320
Speaker 1: do this. So he found it by you know, reviewing

1054
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:37,560
Speaker 1: the tapes or slides or pictures and you know, being

1055
01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 1: able to carry out role plays with consenting partners. And

1056
01:00:41,520 --> 01:00:44,760
Speaker 1: that's where that's probably the most disturbing part. That the

1057
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:47,120
Speaker 1: most disturbing idea that I've come to is the why

1058
01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:50,520
Speaker 1: this guy stopped is he met somebody. And at first

1059
01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:52,840
Speaker 1: I was like, well, you know, for every kink there's

1060
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:56,760
Speaker 1: somebody who's happy to fulfill that kink. But for this guy,

1061
01:00:56,840 --> 01:00:59,680
Speaker 1: I don't think it's an adult woman dressing up like

1062
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:04,240
Speaker 1: a schoolgirl and letting him play act to do whatever

1063
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:07,120
Speaker 1: he wants. What really, know, what really disturbs me is

1064
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:10,160
Speaker 1: that he met a woman who was down with his kink,

1065
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:15,840
Speaker 1: who had a daughter and said, here is your smart board,

1066
01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:19,920
Speaker 1: and he suddenly was off of the market. Does but

1067
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:25,240
Speaker 1: I mean, kids age pretty quick, so his thing was

1068
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:26,880
Speaker 1: an eleven year I mean, you know the ten to

1069
01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:30,400
Speaker 1: thirteen range pre puberty. Listen, we've talked about guys who

1070
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:35,720
Speaker 1: started assaulting young girls at the age of five and

1071
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:39,040
Speaker 1: didn't stop until they were thirty. Yeah, that's true. I mean,

1072
01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:41,600
Speaker 1: there there are stories like that. So it doesn't mean

1073
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:44,040
Speaker 1: that just because she was no longer twelve, she was

1074
01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:48,720
Speaker 1: no longer useful in that manner the nicest I can't.

1075
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:51,320
Speaker 1: I mean, let's just hop in. We're only going to

1076
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:54,680
Speaker 1: talk about three suspects, and none of them are named.

1077
01:01:55,640 --> 01:01:59,520
Speaker 1: Don't work, but yeah, we have, we have our own

1078
01:01:59,600 --> 01:02:02,280
Speaker 1: names for them. But um, one of them is just

1079
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:05,600
Speaker 1: called John A K. John Doe. And I'm just gonna

1080
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:08,400
Speaker 1: because it's a good transition into this. John was brought

1081
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:12,760
Speaker 1: to the attention of the police because he had a partner, um,

1082
01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:18,280
Speaker 1: a consenting adult female partner. I yeah, girlfriend's sexual partner.

1083
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:22,840
Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure which. Uh that said that John

1084
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:27,960
Speaker 1: started talking about Carmen during sex while they were role

1085
01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:32,720
Speaker 1: playing schoolgirl stuff, and then was apparently really upset when

1086
01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:39,800
Speaker 1: the media dubbed the killer Mr Cruel, Mr prvy pants. Yeah. Um,

1087
01:02:40,040 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 1: and then John. John was apparently self employed and traveled

1088
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:46,720
Speaker 1: a lot, so he had a reason to disappear on

1089
01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:50,800
Speaker 1: the job, and while police took this claim seriously, the

1090
01:02:51,200 --> 01:02:53,520
Speaker 1: X had a lot of discrepancies in her story and

1091
01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:56,360
Speaker 1: they kind of thought, well, we're obviously going to investigate

1092
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:58,919
Speaker 1: this person, but it kind of seems like this person

1093
01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:01,200
Speaker 1: is just trying to get and John, John, this is

1094
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:02,920
Speaker 1: the same thing that we've talked about with x Is

1095
01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:05,120
Speaker 1: before last week, when we talked about Able and the

1096
01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:08,760
Speaker 1: fact that Abel only came to the police's attention after

1097
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:11,800
Speaker 1: he is soon to be third X. Yeah, you know

1098
01:03:12,040 --> 01:03:14,720
Speaker 1: spilled the quote unquote spilled the beans on him, which

1099
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:17,880
Speaker 1: really was just to bring down hell on it totally. Yeah,

1100
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:23,080
Speaker 1: she succeeded. Yeah, yeah, Um, so our next and I apologize.

1101
01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:26,200
Speaker 1: I think sometimes we do these stories and our listeners

1102
01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:28,240
Speaker 1: are like, you guys just told the story and then

1103
01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:31,880
Speaker 1: like haphazardly through like three sentences on each theory and

1104
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:35,360
Speaker 1: like that's it. But that's literally you can do the research.

1105
01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:37,360
Speaker 1: I hope you will do the research and follow some

1106
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:39,480
Speaker 1: of the links to some of the stuff that we found.

1107
01:03:39,600 --> 01:03:43,560
Speaker 1: And there's no, there's nothing. There's really nothing. So we're

1108
01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:46,200
Speaker 1: going to talk about two other suspects. Well, I will

1109
01:03:46,360 --> 01:03:50,360
Speaker 1: just say, I why is it the show always puts

1110
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:55,480
Speaker 1: me in the weird position of potentially defending a creep ozoid.

1111
01:03:56,040 --> 01:03:58,120
Speaker 1: But I'm gonna do it a little bit. You're going

1112
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:01,280
Speaker 1: to defend this guy just to any bit from if

1113
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:04,840
Speaker 1: his partner is saying he started talking about this while

1114
01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:08,840
Speaker 1: we were role playing, it is entirely possible that this

1115
01:04:09,040 --> 01:04:14,200
Speaker 1: guy had a thing for Asian school girls and this

1116
01:04:14,360 --> 01:04:16,440
Speaker 1: girl happened to be in the news, so he started

1117
01:04:16,520 --> 01:04:19,440
Speaker 1: talking about her. Oh. I think John is absolutely not

1118
01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:21,480
Speaker 1: an actual What I'm saying is that he may have

1119
01:04:21,520 --> 01:04:24,360
Speaker 1: started saying this stuff. He might have been seeing some

1120
01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:27,720
Speaker 1: other chick named Carmen. Yeah, and his and his partner

1121
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:31,880
Speaker 1: is just like, what the dude, that is not okay?

1122
01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:35,800
Speaker 1: And you know, she gets mad, she spills a beer

1123
01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:38,160
Speaker 1: on and she runs away and that's the end of that.

1124
01:04:38,560 --> 01:04:41,040
Speaker 1: And he's thinking, okay, so the big deal, except then

1125
01:04:41,080 --> 01:04:43,960
Speaker 1: she turns heround and tell the cops. No, I don't

1126
01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:46,360
Speaker 1: think I mean, I don't think that John is I

1127
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:48,880
Speaker 1: think the police did their due diligence, But I think

1128
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:51,720
Speaker 1: overall John is not a good suspect. But he's on

1129
01:04:51,800 --> 01:04:54,920
Speaker 1: the top seven, isn't he. No. Oh, okay, so I

1130
01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:59,160
Speaker 1: thought John was in the top seven. That's why the

1131
01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:01,880
Speaker 1: other thirty two he's in the other thirty two. He's

1132
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:04,160
Speaker 1: not in the seven where they're like, get this person

1133
01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:06,200
Speaker 1: in me. Okay, okay. He's just one of the ones

1134
01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:09,440
Speaker 1: that's widely reported on it because I don't know they

1135
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:10,840
Speaker 1: gave a name to him. I guess I don't know.

1136
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:14,440
Speaker 1: The next suspect we're going to talk about is we're

1137
01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:17,320
Speaker 1: going to call him Prime a k A. The Lecturer,

1138
01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:21,320
Speaker 1: a k A. No name McGhee. He is the prime suspect.

1139
01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:23,760
Speaker 1: He is. He is Mr pervy Pants. He is the

1140
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:28,720
Speaker 1: prime suspect for this case. Though again they can't there's

1141
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:32,840
Speaker 1: no evidence, like there's no evidence at all. But um

1142
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:38,360
Speaker 1: the Lecturer is a seventy four year old former university

1143
01:05:38,520 --> 01:05:43,560
Speaker 1: lecturer and director of a construction design firm in the seventies.

1144
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:46,720
Speaker 1: He spent ten years in jail for for rapes and

1145
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:49,600
Speaker 1: attacks at knife point on young women and girls, and

1146
01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:55,200
Speaker 1: a source said that he has slides. You guys remember slides.

1147
01:05:56,160 --> 01:06:00,080
Speaker 1: He has slides of the girls that were abducted. It

1148
01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:03,280
Speaker 1: on his on a bed. But the police did an

1149
01:06:03,280 --> 01:06:06,160
Speaker 1: extensive investigation, they were unable to find it. And in fact,

1150
01:06:06,240 --> 01:06:09,440
Speaker 1: the Sun reached out to this person because they have

1151
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:12,840
Speaker 1: named Yeah, the tabloid. They have the name they again,

1152
01:06:13,080 --> 01:06:15,360
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that it's fair to not release

1153
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:17,200
Speaker 1: the names of these people because you don't know which

1154
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:19,760
Speaker 1: hunt to happen. But they reached out to this person

1155
01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:22,280
Speaker 1: and he said, um, oh yeah, I know. I know

1156
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:24,560
Speaker 1: they think I did it. I didn't, but I know

1157
01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:26,960
Speaker 1: that I'm their prime suspect. Well there's at least one

1158
01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:28,520
Speaker 1: other guy who also said, oh yeah, I know. I

1159
01:06:28,600 --> 01:06:30,640
Speaker 1: knew they were They followed me for years. They weren't

1160
01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:33,120
Speaker 1: They weren't clever about it at all. Yeah. Yeah, so

1161
01:06:33,840 --> 01:06:36,160
Speaker 1: he's the strongest suspect and that is literally all we

1162
01:06:36,240 --> 01:06:41,880
Speaker 1: know about him. Congratulations. Yeah, not even a first name. No. Uh.

1163
01:06:42,040 --> 01:06:46,640
Speaker 1: And then the final suspect is Arans. This is not

1164
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:49,760
Speaker 1: an episode about Urons, by the way, tell people who

1165
01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:59,240
Speaker 1: don't know who that is is the original night Stalker again,

1166
01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:02,960
Speaker 1: may even not be the same person, but at least

1167
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:06,120
Speaker 1: don't send us see angry emails about that statement. It's

1168
01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:09,040
Speaker 1: another episode for another time that we will maybe eventually

1169
01:07:09,120 --> 01:07:12,640
Speaker 1: sometimes do. But I saw this speculation on a couple

1170
01:07:12,720 --> 01:07:15,240
Speaker 1: of forums and I thought it was kind of interesting

1171
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:18,600
Speaker 1: and compelling. It's I don't think it actually is, but

1172
01:07:19,120 --> 01:07:23,800
Speaker 1: there's some speculation that Urons traveled to Australia after his

1173
01:07:23,960 --> 01:07:27,760
Speaker 1: prolific attacks in California in the seventies. His last official

1174
01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:30,440
Speaker 1: attack in California was eighty six, and then the first

1175
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:34,080
Speaker 1: Mr Cruel attack was eighty seven, so the timeline could

1176
01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:38,920
Speaker 1: match up. You could also explain the weird accents and voices.

1177
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:44,840
Speaker 1: But although the ms were different, the emmos were very different. Well,

1178
01:07:45,120 --> 01:07:49,000
Speaker 1: I will say, when you look at the confirmed Urons cases,

1179
01:07:49,200 --> 01:07:54,320
Speaker 1: his victims do get progressively younger as he evolves. As evolves,

1180
01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:58,520
Speaker 1: I hate that term for these as he progresses on

1181
01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:04,200
Speaker 1: his spiral of horrible I like that, but that's a

1182
01:08:04,320 --> 01:08:08,680
Speaker 1: pretty big leap. He's you know, Urons attacked an eighteen

1183
01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:11,360
Speaker 1: year old and then to move directly on too like

1184
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:15,440
Speaker 1: an eleven year old is a pretty big leap. And again,

1185
01:08:16,400 --> 01:08:18,360
Speaker 1: one of the big things that draws people to the

1186
01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:22,439
Speaker 1: Aran cases is all the documents and the letters that

1187
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:26,679
Speaker 1: are attached to that case. That there's none of that here.

1188
01:08:27,000 --> 01:08:29,280
Speaker 1: So I don't think it's a solid theory, but I

1189
01:08:29,360 --> 01:08:35,200
Speaker 1: thought it was an interesting thought experiment. I guess in it. Frankly,

1190
01:08:35,320 --> 01:08:37,640
Speaker 1: I think I think the police know who it is.

1191
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:40,519
Speaker 1: They just don't have enough evidence, which is really a

1192
01:08:40,600 --> 01:08:43,280
Speaker 1: huge bummer. There's all kinds of speculation that this guy

1193
01:08:43,880 --> 01:08:48,160
Speaker 1: in some way is connected to the school system in

1194
01:08:48,240 --> 01:08:51,479
Speaker 1: the area. You talked about this before. It is the

1195
01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:55,400
Speaker 1: fact that they happen over typically around school holiday. They

1196
01:08:55,560 --> 01:08:58,080
Speaker 1: happened around school holidays. You actually mentioned that when you

1197
01:08:58,120 --> 01:09:01,960
Speaker 1: were reading the profile. Oh, I don't remember school holidays.

1198
01:09:02,080 --> 01:09:04,760
Speaker 1: And they also, you know, two of the girls went

1199
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:07,720
Speaker 1: to the same school, so it's possible that it was

1200
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:10,200
Speaker 1: a teacher from that school. You know, I don't know.

1201
01:09:10,320 --> 01:09:14,799
Speaker 1: I there again in the profile that the Mr Cruel

1202
01:09:14,880 --> 01:09:18,599
Speaker 1: would have shown an interest in children, So there were

1203
01:09:18,680 --> 01:09:20,680
Speaker 1: there was a lot of speculation that he was a

1204
01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:23,320
Speaker 1: teacher of some kind or in the school system in

1205
01:09:23,439 --> 01:09:26,000
Speaker 1: some way. And again that's why that prime suspect. He

1206
01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:29,679
Speaker 1: was a university lecturer, so people thought maybe that would

1207
01:09:29,680 --> 01:09:32,720
Speaker 1: be the connection. But I don't know. I find this

1208
01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:37,840
Speaker 1: case so unsatisfying. I mean, but but I think that

1209
01:09:38,000 --> 01:09:40,639
Speaker 1: if we're gonna I mean, if there's the he worked

1210
01:09:40,640 --> 01:09:43,040
Speaker 1: in the school system, I don't buy that. I buy

1211
01:09:43,120 --> 01:09:49,320
Speaker 1: what Joe said earlier, which is yeah, because he had

1212
01:09:49,640 --> 01:09:55,320
Speaker 1: so much apparent knowledge of how the investigation process worked

1213
01:09:55,520 --> 01:09:57,600
Speaker 1: on the other hand, the argument could be made that

1214
01:09:57,680 --> 01:10:00,760
Speaker 1: he was just obsessive, compulsive and needed them to be clean. Um,

1215
01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:06,400
Speaker 1: I mean he cleaned them before and after every single attack. Yeah,

1216
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:10,400
Speaker 1: but I mean the all of the false leads that

1217
01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:16,000
Speaker 1: he creates. Yeah, that's that's something that makes me wonder. Well,

1218
01:10:16,040 --> 01:10:19,360
Speaker 1: there's some Again we're kind of running into speculation here,

1219
01:10:19,439 --> 01:10:22,160
Speaker 1: but that's got left I know. But for me, you know,

1220
01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:25,120
Speaker 1: they are young girls. I presume that one of the

1221
01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:27,920
Speaker 1: turn ons for the young girl is the purity of it.

1222
01:10:28,479 --> 01:10:30,720
Speaker 1: So he would want them to be clean before and

1223
01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:32,720
Speaker 1: then he would view them as soiled until he could

1224
01:10:32,760 --> 01:10:36,120
Speaker 1: clean them again afterwards. I mean, I think there's some

1225
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:39,720
Speaker 1: I'm sure psychologists could get like really deep into this,

1226
01:10:40,360 --> 01:10:43,760
Speaker 1: but I don't I agree. I think that there is

1227
01:10:43,840 --> 01:10:47,240
Speaker 1: some forensic knowledge there, but maybe he was a forensic

1228
01:10:47,320 --> 01:10:52,160
Speaker 1: teacher read about stuff like that. When you think about

1229
01:10:52,200 --> 01:10:56,400
Speaker 1: guys like morticians that have a connection to police departments,

1230
01:10:56,479 --> 01:10:59,040
Speaker 1: they would know that they would glean that kind of

1231
01:10:59,160 --> 01:11:02,760
Speaker 1: information from if nothing else, they're encounters. I mean, there's

1232
01:11:03,000 --> 01:11:06,800
Speaker 1: there's a whole That's why I always feel let down

1233
01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:09,479
Speaker 1: by this because everybody says he must be involved in

1234
01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:13,600
Speaker 1: the school system. Where there's this whole other realms of

1235
01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:16,120
Speaker 1: ways that he could have been connected and known the

1236
01:11:16,200 --> 01:11:19,160
Speaker 1: things that he seems to have known. I think people

1237
01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:23,000
Speaker 1: think school system because that allows for the time for

1238
01:11:23,080 --> 01:11:26,759
Speaker 1: the meticulous planning. I mean, he he stalked these families

1239
01:11:26,840 --> 01:11:29,240
Speaker 1: for at least weeks at a time before he carried

1240
01:11:29,280 --> 01:11:32,599
Speaker 1: out the attacks. He learned their their schedules, he knew

1241
01:11:32,640 --> 01:11:34,400
Speaker 1: when they were there and when they weren't there, and

1242
01:11:34,680 --> 01:11:38,519
Speaker 1: timed and planned his attacks so meticulously so that they

1243
01:11:38,560 --> 01:11:41,599
Speaker 1: would just be perfect. I mean, he was obviously watching

1244
01:11:41,640 --> 01:11:44,800
Speaker 1: the house. He was obviously watching Shannon's house because the

1245
01:11:44,880 --> 01:11:47,040
Speaker 1: parents went to sleep, and then John immediately was like,

1246
01:11:47,120 --> 01:11:48,760
Speaker 1: I can't go to sleep, and stayed up for four

1247
01:11:48,840 --> 01:11:51,920
Speaker 1: and a half more hours obviously, and then a half

1248
01:11:51,960 --> 01:11:54,680
Speaker 1: an hour later he, you know, Mr Cruel, busts in.

1249
01:11:55,200 --> 01:11:59,200
Speaker 1: He sat and waited and watched this house for the

1250
01:11:59,280 --> 01:12:03,160
Speaker 1: majority of the night. I mean, these are like insanely

1251
01:12:03,520 --> 01:12:07,640
Speaker 1: meticulously planned things. And so I think one of the

1252
01:12:07,720 --> 01:12:10,479
Speaker 1: reasons that people think maybe a teacher is that on

1253
01:12:10,680 --> 01:12:13,880
Speaker 1: that break, he would have had time to actually devote

1254
01:12:13,960 --> 01:12:17,040
Speaker 1: that amount of time. Breaks are early for days and

1255
01:12:17,120 --> 01:12:19,320
Speaker 1: not some I'm talking about nuts. Something well, I guess

1256
01:12:19,360 --> 01:12:22,160
Speaker 1: it is. Also there was a summer break and Christmas

1257
01:12:22,200 --> 01:12:24,679
Speaker 1: break are pretty much the two times that these attacks happen.

1258
01:12:25,439 --> 01:12:29,160
Speaker 1: Does Australia at a time Does Australia have a summer,

1259
01:12:29,360 --> 01:12:33,759
Speaker 1: summer recess, summer break like we have. They do in Okay,

1260
01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:36,760
Speaker 1: but it would be winter right, well, but they do

1261
01:12:36,880 --> 01:12:39,280
Speaker 1: it in that time, but it's not always in the

1262
01:12:39,360 --> 01:12:42,000
Speaker 1: same time frame we're used to. But that's why, I mean,

1263
01:12:42,040 --> 01:12:45,000
Speaker 1: I I don't think that because he's a teacher, he

1264
01:12:45,120 --> 01:12:47,200
Speaker 1: had all this spare time. He could be a part

1265
01:12:47,320 --> 01:12:50,720
Speaker 1: time janitor for all we freaking know, and he has

1266
01:12:50,920 --> 01:12:54,400
Speaker 1: nothing to do but every week go park next to

1267
01:12:54,520 --> 01:12:58,080
Speaker 1: this house and eat a sandwich and watch and memorize

1268
01:12:58,160 --> 01:13:01,519
Speaker 1: their actions. I mean, that's that's a random example. But

1269
01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:04,439
Speaker 1: I know a guy who's just had from a wealthy family.

1270
01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:06,960
Speaker 1: He doesn't have to work. There's also other people out

1271
01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:09,400
Speaker 1: there that have jobs that are flexible, they're self employed

1272
01:13:09,400 --> 01:13:10,760
Speaker 1: and they can so I don't. I don't buy the

1273
01:13:10,800 --> 01:13:16,479
Speaker 1: school system thing myself. Yeah, that's where forensics My entire

1274
01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:19,240
Speaker 1: complaint comes from. But I want to I kind of

1275
01:13:19,240 --> 01:13:20,800
Speaker 1: suspect that he must be on the list of the

1276
01:13:20,840 --> 01:13:23,439
Speaker 1: seven because obviously he stopped. He must have stopped for

1277
01:13:23,479 --> 01:13:27,040
Speaker 1: a reason, he know that, I mean, or he moved,

1278
01:13:27,240 --> 01:13:28,800
Speaker 1: or you know, you could have just been having like

1279
01:13:28,880 --> 01:13:32,519
Speaker 1: a lunchtime conversation with a coworker and just sort of said, yeah,

1280
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:34,639
Speaker 1: you know, I kind of had these fantasies about about

1281
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:37,639
Speaker 1: you know, schoolgirls, and the guy says, yeah, too bad,

1282
01:13:37,680 --> 01:13:39,280
Speaker 1: that's the illegal, Fred. But you know you can't go

1283
01:13:39,360 --> 01:13:47,439
Speaker 1: to Thailand friends, Like Thailand's true. It's a hot skipped boyfriend.

1284
01:13:47,479 --> 01:13:49,559
Speaker 1: I mean, you haven't heard about you haven't heard about

1285
01:13:49,600 --> 01:13:54,360
Speaker 1: pervs going to Thailand. Yeah, maybe he discovered that it's true. Yeah, um,

1286
01:13:54,600 --> 01:13:59,760
Speaker 1: so I'm ready to be done with this. Yeah. Well,

1287
01:14:00,280 --> 01:14:02,400
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, hopefully he didn't discover title and

1288
01:14:02,439 --> 01:14:04,960
Speaker 1: hopefully he just got cancer and died, you know, the

1289
01:14:05,320 --> 01:14:10,639
Speaker 1: worst kind of hopefully that happened. Yeah, but in agony

1290
01:14:10,720 --> 01:14:13,000
Speaker 1: for years. Yeah, I would, I would. I hope that

1291
01:14:13,120 --> 01:14:18,479
Speaker 1: that will be good. So appropriately, Yeah, we will post

1292
01:14:18,680 --> 01:14:23,200
Speaker 1: some links to some research on our website where you

1293
01:14:23,280 --> 01:14:26,280
Speaker 1: can also download and listen to the show, as well

1294
01:14:26,320 --> 01:14:29,920
Speaker 1: as find links to our merchandise stores. That website is

1295
01:14:29,960 --> 01:14:34,280
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. Uh. You can obviously stream

1296
01:14:34,360 --> 01:14:36,559
Speaker 1: us pretty much anywhere. You probably know where you're finding

1297
01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:39,960
Speaker 1: your podcasts. If you have the option to rate and

1298
01:14:40,120 --> 01:14:43,760
Speaker 1: review and subscribe on whatever service you provide or you

1299
01:14:44,080 --> 01:14:47,680
Speaker 1: get your podcast from, UM, please do so. It was

1300
01:14:47,720 --> 01:14:49,920
Speaker 1: a good rating. You can find us on social media.

1301
01:14:50,040 --> 01:14:52,880
Speaker 1: We've got a Facebook group in a page, so like

1302
01:14:53,080 --> 01:14:55,120
Speaker 1: the page and joined the group. Lots of great discussion

1303
01:14:55,200 --> 01:15:00,400
Speaker 1: happens there. We have a Twitter it's Thinking Sideways podcast. Nope,

1304
01:15:00,479 --> 01:15:07,280
Speaker 1: it's just Thinking Sideways yep. Um. And then we also

1305
01:15:07,360 --> 01:15:10,200
Speaker 1: have a sub audit which their episode discussions and things

1306
01:15:10,280 --> 01:15:13,160
Speaker 1: like that that happened there. Um, and that's Thinking Sideways.

1307
01:15:13,600 --> 01:15:17,600
Speaker 1: If you have suggestions like this one or anything, you know,

1308
01:15:18,080 --> 01:15:22,320
Speaker 1: general accolades, whatever. Um. We read and respond to every

1309
01:15:22,360 --> 01:15:24,040
Speaker 1: single one of our emails if they take us a

1310
01:15:24,040 --> 01:15:26,040
Speaker 1: couple of days. But you can drop us an email

1311
01:15:26,080 --> 01:15:29,720
Speaker 1: at Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. And I

1312
01:15:29,880 --> 01:15:33,560
Speaker 1: think that takes care of all of the housekeeping. So

1313
01:15:33,960 --> 01:15:36,120
Speaker 1: all of that having been said, we're going to get

1314
01:15:36,160 --> 01:15:38,200
Speaker 1: out of here and cry for the next four days

1315
01:15:38,520 --> 01:15:40,840
Speaker 1: something like that. Yeah yeah, I got no, I got

1316
01:15:40,920 --> 01:15:43,759
Speaker 1: no clever puns for this one. What ever? Doing? Bye everybody?

1317
01:15:43,880 --> 01:15:45,559
Speaker 1: Yeah bye guys. Next week