Speaker 1: Hey, it's Connor Hall, the senior producer for Wrongful Conviction
Speaker 1: here with more updates and behind the scenes insights. Today
Speaker 1: we're talking about pardon powers now. At the end of
Speaker 1: every presidency governorship, there's usually some number of pardons and commutations.
Speaker 1: Recently a notable one was Leonard Peltier, who got the
Speaker 1: news just minutes before the end of the Biden administration.
Speaker 1: But why not day one? I guess the smart money
Speaker 1: is on the fact that so many Americans still believe
Speaker 1: in the infallibility of our legal system and that a
Speaker 1: guilty verdict delivered by it is unshakable. I mean that
Speaker 1: appears to be the foundation of its power. In Leonard's case,
Speaker 1: I believe they made him part of an FBI training
Speaker 1: module as some kind of boogeyman for new FBI agents,
Speaker 1: So of course agents showed up in mass to derail
Speaker 1: his pardon efforts at the end of the Clinton administration. Generally,
Speaker 1: pardons and the like are perceived as having some sort
Speaker 1: of soft spot for alleged violent psychopaths, rather than as
Speaker 1: a critical failsafe for when the system gets it wrong,
Speaker 1: which our audience knows that happens not only frequently, but
Speaker 1: at times it appears to be on purpose, as does
Speaker 1: the maintenance of those convictions through the appeals process. So
Speaker 1: our hope is that with greater awareness of this system,
Speaker 1: it's flawed human operators, and its perverse incentives like providing
Speaker 1: slave labor to American economic might, that a political will
Speaker 1: might amass to give our elected officials the courage to
Speaker 1: use their pardon powers more often and throughout their terms,
Speaker 1: feeling instead that they're not spending political capital just to
Speaker 1: do the right thing, especially in actual innocence cases and
Speaker 1: in the most crucial scenarios involving capital punishment. Now we've
Speaker 1: covered plenty of state DEATHBA cases, most notably Ohio Governor
Speaker 1: Dwine please do something, But I digress. On federal death row,
Speaker 1: we've only covered one, and that's Billy Allen. Now, other
Speaker 1: than three federal executions during the Bush administration, there hadn't
Speaker 1: been any before that since nineteen sixty three, and then
Speaker 1: not again until a thirteen execution spree starting in July
Speaker 1: twenty twenty under President Trump, who ironically now uses his
Speaker 1: pardon power pretty loosely. But I digress again. After the
Speaker 1: thirteen executions in twenty twenty, he later campaigned on the
Speaker 1: intention to execute the remaining forty death row inmates if
Speaker 1: re elected, so with the incoming second term, there was
Speaker 1: a sense of urgency around what folks, including Pope Francis,
Speaker 1: had been lobbying Biden for since twenty twenty one, and
Speaker 1: just two days before Christmas twenty twenty four, President Biden
Speaker 1: finally listened, commuting the sentences of thirty seven out of
Speaker 1: forty of those on death row to life, including Billy Allen.
Speaker 1: The three that remain are two mass shooters caught at
Speaker 1: their scenes, and the alleged Boston Marathon bomber. Brian Stevenson
Speaker 1: was quoted about it, saying, the death penalty is a torturous, flawed, expensive,
Speaker 1: and ever filled practice that must be abolished. I commend
Speaker 1: President Biden for this historic act and hope that governors
Speaker 1: and state executives follow the President's lead. At a time
Speaker 1: when many of our courts are abandoning their role to
Speaker 1: ensure fairness and reliability in criminal cases, leadership by elected
Speaker 1: officials will be more critical than ever end quote. So
Speaker 1: I'm grateful that Billy and others, some of whom may
Speaker 1: also be innocent, that they won't feel the terror they'd
Speaker 1: felt during that spree in late twenty twenty. But I'm
Speaker 1: also resentful that, when considering innocence cases like Billy's, that
Speaker 1: our elected officials are not more courageous with their pardon powers,
Speaker 1: considering the obstinates we often see from judges, as well
Speaker 1: as district attorneys and attorneys general, who sometimes use conviction
Speaker 1: integrity units, not as they are seemingly intended to find
Speaker 1: truth and justice and right the wrongs, but to hide
Speaker 1: the misconduct of their offices past. You know, in a
Speaker 1: conversation recently, a respected attorney commented to me that these
Speaker 1: integrity units have become the place where innocence cases go
Speaker 1: to die. So stay vigilant, everybody, especially with your alleged
Speaker 1: progressive prosecutors. Now, I'd like you all to consider this
Speaker 1: as you listen to Billy Allen's story. When a wrongful
Speaker 1: conviction is maintained and a prosecutor knowingly continues to pursue
Speaker 1: their bondage, a judge refuses to grant relief to an
Speaker 1: innocent person, how is that not violence? And how is
Speaker 1: the silence or inaction of a governor or president not
Speaker 1: almost the same damn thing.
Speaker 2: On March seventeenth, nineteen ninety seven, two armed and masked
Speaker 2: men robbed a bank in Saint Louis, Missouri, and batally
Speaker 2: shot a security guard named Richard Heflin in the process
Speaker 2: as part of their plan to destroy evidence innovate capture.
Speaker 2: They had pre soaked the getaway van with gasoline, but
Speaker 2: before they got to switch from the van to a
Speaker 2: second getaway vehicle, the van caught fire. One assailant, Norris Holder,
Speaker 2: was arrested at the scene, but the second assailant escape
Speaker 2: that was described as a black man about five nine
Speaker 2: with singed hair and an injured right hand. Norris Holder
Speaker 2: told investigators that the escapee was named John, but later
Speaker 2: changed that name to Bill. Police arrested an acquaintance of
Speaker 2: Holders named Billy Allen. Other than being black, Billy did
Speaker 2: not match the initial descriptions, but curiously was somehow identified
Speaker 2: by four witnesses, including Holder. Imagine being selected for this
Speaker 2: jury and hearing investigators tested by about an alleged confession,
Speaker 2: as well as that four witnesses, including the only other assailant,
Speaker 2: identify Billy Allen. You might feel pretty confident in your verdict.
Speaker 2: Yet here we are, almost a quarter century later to
Speaker 2: publicly reveal for the very first time case breaking exculpatory
Speaker 2: evidence from the state's own files that was ignored by
Speaker 2: both the prosecution and the defense. Did I mentioned they
Speaker 2: send them to death? This is wrongful Conviction. Welcome back
Speaker 2: to Wrongful Conviction. Today, we're going to do something I
Speaker 2: don't think we've ever done before, which is that we're
Speaker 2: covering a federal death penalty case. And we're honored. I'm
Speaker 2: honored to have Professor Mark Howard, leader of the Making
Speaker 2: an exaner reprogram at Georgetown. So Mark, welcome back to
Speaker 2: Wrongful Conviction.
Speaker 3: Great to be back, Jason, Thanks.
Speaker 2: And with Mark is his distinguished co professor who has
Speaker 2: also been on the podcast before more than once for
Speaker 2: the right and the wrong reasons. Marty Tankliff was wrongfully
Speaker 2: convicted himself and served seventeen years when Marty was wrongfully
Speaker 2: convicted of murdering his parents, and of course he's been
Speaker 2: exonerated and we've become great friends. And he also is
Speaker 2: Mark's childhood friend and the professor now at Georgetown of
Speaker 2: the Making an Exanery program. So Marty tankleff es Choir,
Speaker 2: Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. Thank you, you know the fact
Speaker 2: that we're all here today is a beautiful thing, but
Speaker 2: it's also an extremely troubling thing because we're here today
Speaker 2: to talk about Billy Allen, who has been on death
Speaker 2: row in the federal system for a quarter of a
Speaker 2: century now, since he was nineteen years old.
Speaker 4: I appreciate you, you know, you all taking an interest in
Speaker 4: my story and wanting to tell it.
Speaker 2: Well, Billy, yours is a story that definitely needs to
Speaker 2: be told, so welcome to the show. But before we
Speaker 2: get into all the details, i'd love to hear about
Speaker 2: your life before this horrible scenario took place.
Speaker 4: You know, I grew up in a house with three
Speaker 4: sisters on the north side of Saint Louis, which was
Speaker 4: I guess you can say, flooded with drugs, a lot
Speaker 4: of violence and stuff like that. Even though I lived
Speaker 4: in the underprivileged neighborhood, I went to school in a
Speaker 4: privileged neighborhood. Clayton, Missouri, is considered probably one of the
Speaker 4: wealthiest places in Missouri. You know, no matter if I
Speaker 4: go out to the clay School district and I'm around
Speaker 4: rich people, I still have to deal with my surroundings
Speaker 4: when I come home. You're like where do I fit
Speaker 4: in in things?
Speaker 2: It sounds like you had a foothold in these two
Speaker 2: sort of opposite worlds of haves and have nots, which
Speaker 2: sounds like you could be pretty confusing. So after you
Speaker 2: graduated high school and leading up to March of ninety seven,
Speaker 2: what were you up.
Speaker 4: To, to be honest with people, You know, I was
Speaker 4: hustling at the time. You know, I wasn't a big
Speaker 4: drug dealer or anything like that. I was just hustling
Speaker 4: at the time. But at the same time, I was
Speaker 4: trying to find my way at the time, and that's
Speaker 4: why I met the you know, the girl I ended
Speaker 4: up with who I was going to move in with,
Speaker 4: you know, because basically I was going to get a job,
Speaker 4: stop selling drugs and just I guess you could say,
Speaker 4: start my growth. Not only for her, but she had
Speaker 4: a daughter, so I was trying to be better for
Speaker 4: all of them.
Speaker 2: So you were at a crossroads, and it sounds like
Speaker 2: you were choosing a more promising path. But your connection
Speaker 2: the old neighborhood happened to bring you into contact with
Speaker 2: one of the actual bank robbers in this case, Norris Holder.
Speaker 2: You had met him through job corps once and then
Speaker 2: had a chance encounter with him years later. Apparently you
Speaker 2: had sold him some weed once or vice versa, and
Speaker 2: it was this chance meeting and short lived hang out
Speaker 2: just a few days before Holder committed this crime that
Speaker 2: even put you into the realm of possibilities. I mean,
Speaker 2: how well did you even know this Holder guy?
Speaker 4: Well, I didn't know Holder per se. I guess you
Speaker 4: can say the way they tried to, you know, sell
Speaker 4: the story to my jury. When I was at a
Speaker 4: club one day older, I knew one of his friends
Speaker 4: he was with, you know, just from my neighborhood, and
Speaker 4: so you know, we ended up just talking. So he's like, hey, look,
Speaker 4: you know, let's look up one day just being cordial
Speaker 4: with people. Plus up, Like I said, I knew the
Speaker 4: guy he was with. Then a few days you know later,
Speaker 4: I get a call from him, you know, basically like
Speaker 4: hey man, you know, I'm going to go to the
Speaker 4: mall and you know, I got some weed, and I'm like, okay,
Speaker 4: well I'm in now. But for them to make it
Speaker 4: seem like we were friends, we were food in this
Speaker 4: crime or anything like that, how can you say that
Speaker 4: I would involve myself in a crime of this magnitude
Speaker 4: with somebody I didn't even know.
Speaker 2: Right, it doesn't make a whole hell of a lot
Speaker 2: of sense until you consider the investigators in this case,
Speaker 2: one of whom Joseph Nickerson is on the Saint Louis
Speaker 2: DA's do not testify list, which is, by the way,
Speaker 2: exactly what it sounds like. He's not allowed to testify
Speaker 2: in cases because he lies so much. He's the detective,
Speaker 2: by the way, from another egregious wrongful convictioning case out
Speaker 2: of Saint Louis, Lamar Johnson. In Lamar's case, Nickerson fabricated
Speaker 2: a narrative from alleged witness statements, but these witnesses later
Speaker 2: denied saying any of the things Nickerson had attributed to them.
Speaker 2: He perjured himself to make Lamar's culpability even plausible. And
Speaker 2: then there's a cash incentivized eyewitness who was convinced that
Speaker 2: the mass gunman in this case was Lamar Johnson, so
Speaker 2: he went along with the ID which you'll see in
Speaker 2: it a bit sounds eerily similar to what happened in
Speaker 2: this case. Now. I believe his partner, a guy named Carol,
Speaker 2: is actually doing time now for assaulting someone who was
Speaker 2: in custody. So it's patterns like these that give a
Speaker 2: helpful context to what happened in Billy's case. So let's
Speaker 2: get to that. The morning of March seventeenth, nineteen ninety seven,
Speaker 2: where were you actually that paidful morning?
Speaker 4: I had left the house early that morning, like at
Speaker 4: eight o'clock in the morning. They claimed that I had
Speaker 4: called holder and told them let's get ready for the
Speaker 4: crime and all this stuff from the house. But how
Speaker 4: can I call you from the house when I'm already gone,
Speaker 4: you know. So I get to the mall early in
Speaker 4: the morning, and my first stop is to the hat Zone.
Speaker 4: So I went to foot Locker, and I went to
Speaker 4: another story foot quarters, and right after that, I went
Speaker 4: to Famous and Barb, which is a clothing store. I
Speaker 4: went to this tuxedo place. And so as I'm shopping, basically,
Speaker 4: I see Chris Hiagog. Now Chris Kigog is a security
Speaker 4: guard who was after the mall to pick up his paycheck.
Speaker 4: He was like, Hey, I'm just going to pick up
Speaker 4: my check and I plan to go to another mall
Speaker 4: to do some and stuff like that. So I'm like, well,
Speaker 4: can I ride with you? I was like, look, I
Speaker 4: just got to drop a few items off a girl
Speaker 4: I was dating, and so he was like okay. So
Speaker 4: he went to pick up his check and we left
Speaker 4: the mall and I dropped off a few items for
Speaker 4: her baby and basically gave her some money because we
Speaker 4: were moving in together, and left.
Speaker 2: So you've been out of the house since eight am.
Speaker 2: At the mall where you visited, several stores made several
Speaker 2: points of contact, and there was also surveillance footage. So
Speaker 2: all the great alibi evidence that places you away from
Speaker 2: the scene at the time of the crime, none of
Speaker 2: it was investigated or later presented on your behalf. So
Speaker 2: while you were shopping across town, there was this bank
Speaker 2: robbery going on at the Lindell Bank and Trust, which
Speaker 2: is caddy corner from this huge park in Saint Louis
Speaker 2: that houses the Saint Louis Zoo, several museums, landmarks, on
Speaker 2: golf course, this skating rink, and this area is known
Speaker 2: as Forest Park. Again. This is March seventeenth, nineteen ninety seven,
Speaker 2: around ten thirty five am, when two masked and armed
Speaker 2: men busted down the door and told everybody to get
Speaker 2: on the ground.
Speaker 3: There were two bank robbers who stole fifty thousand dollars,
Speaker 3: and a security guard named Richard Heflin was killed in
Speaker 3: the process of that robbery. And then the two men
Speaker 3: left the scene in a getaway van, drove to Forest Park,
Speaker 3: and they had a plan apparently to set the van
Speaker 3: on fire and then get away in a different vehicle
Speaker 3: that they planted there. But the van had actually been
Speaker 3: pre soaked in gasoline and exploded and caught on fire
Speaker 3: inside the park before sort of the full extent of
Speaker 3: their plan and a getaway plan could work. And so the driver,
Speaker 3: a guy named Norris Holder, was still on fire himself
Speaker 3: and was pulled out of the car, and then the
Speaker 3: second suspect ran away.
Speaker 2: So Holder was in custody almost immediately. And I've listened
Speaker 2: to the dispatch tapes from that morning. It sounds pretty chaotic,
Speaker 2: but ultimately it sounds like a team of folks trying
Speaker 2: to bring the bank robbers and ers of this bank
Speaker 2: security guard to justice. And this is so important. Every
Speaker 2: one of them described a blackmail about five eight to
Speaker 2: five ten, wearing gray sweats and a blue and red
Speaker 2: colored jacket, and they said he had singed hair, understandably
Speaker 2: since a pan was on fire. And an injured right hand.
Speaker 4: They never described the person with a beard, and I
Speaker 4: had a beard at the time, So if I was
Speaker 4: the person who walked up to you and asked you
Speaker 4: for directions, wouldn't that be one of the most descriptive
Speaker 4: things you can point out about an individual.
Speaker 2: Had it actually been you, they would have mentioned a beard,
Speaker 2: right That's a pretty big detail for everybody to leave out,
Speaker 2: But they did not say that. They also would have
Speaker 2: said over six two instead of around five to nine.
Speaker 2: Big difference there. And when you were eventually picked up,
Speaker 2: your right hand was not injured and your hair was
Speaker 2: not burned in any way. So if you listen to
Speaker 2: all of the dispatch tapes as we did, the story
Speaker 2: remains the same. In the immediate aftermath, the assailant came
Speaker 2: over a hill from the direction of the burning van.
Speaker 2: He went toward the fence line and allegedly told them
Speaker 2: that his van caught fire and he needed to get
Speaker 2: to the metro link.
Speaker 4: Both park workers, you know, when they first came forward,
Speaker 4: they claimed that all they did was gave him directions
Speaker 4: to the metro link. The thing about it is, when
Speaker 4: we get the trial, both park workers change their story.
Speaker 4: They claim they gave the person a ride outside of
Speaker 4: the park. Do you know I have their actual recordings? Well,
Speaker 4: police officer is standing right with them, calling in the
Speaker 4: dispatch the.
Speaker 5: Forestry division supervisor. They honestry workers all the second subject,
Speaker 5: he was running east from the burning van by a
Speaker 5: construction trailer. That's about two hundred yards east down. They're
Speaker 5: heading right over here by the sense line. There's a
Speaker 5: hole in the fence.
Speaker 6: Find out one or two. That exactly why we too,
Speaker 6: cap with the calling. They don't call you the best,
Speaker 6: take our car relt it to the bank. Robbery subjects
Speaker 6: with glad playing calling under a fat growth in the
Speaker 6: collect way, the black man having on a flatpath, they
Speaker 6: had on a multi colored traffic.
Speaker 4: The park workers just told them that they gave the
Speaker 4: person directions. Right.
Speaker 2: These park workers, along with everyone else at this point,
Speaker 2: were just feeding in whatever they could to help nab
Speaker 2: this guy. No other agenda. They pointed him in the
Speaker 2: right direction and he left got away. Whatever threw a
Speaker 2: hole in the fence, importantly not in someone's car. Giving
Speaker 2: this assailant a ride outside the park would really make
Speaker 2: for a much more credible ID, which is why we
Speaker 2: believe this story changed by the time of trial, but
Speaker 2: back to the immediate aftermath. Ultimately, the effort to close
Speaker 2: in on the second assailant was unsuccessful, and they were
Speaker 2: hoping to get something out of Holder.
Speaker 4: Yeah, when Holder was arrested, he says, the person with
Speaker 4: him with some guy named John. Then they threatened him
Speaker 4: with the definily and said, hey, look, whoever's the least
Speaker 4: culpable is who might get lingency in this case. So
Speaker 4: basically you need to provide us, you know, with a story,
Speaker 4: you know, or something that can help us out or
Speaker 4: help you out. So all of a sudden, he switches
Speaker 4: from John and he mentions my name.
Speaker 2: So now he's given them something concrete, a full name,
Speaker 2: and not just a name that feels chosen at random.
Speaker 4: That's the thing. He didn't even know my last name.
Speaker 2: He just said Bill, just Bill, that's it.
Speaker 4: I'll show you where Bill lives.
Speaker 5: Now.
Speaker 4: The thing about the John's situation is this. Throughout their reports,
Speaker 4: there's a person named JB who was connected to Holder.
Speaker 4: We think JB is his cousin. I can't, you know,
Speaker 4: I don't want to falsely accuse anybody or anything like that,
Speaker 4: you know, but that's this is what the reports are
Speaker 4: basically saying, it's my belief that Holder is using me
Speaker 4: as escapego to protect somebody who was close to.
Speaker 2: So now you had no idea what was coming your way.
Speaker 2: Did you even know that this bank robbery had taken place?
Speaker 4: Well, I did see the crime, you know, on the
Speaker 4: news when they arrested Holder, and so I'm like, okay, well,
Speaker 4: you know I'm not involved in so it doesn't really
Speaker 4: draw my attention to it. Next thing I know, I'm
Speaker 4: at the apartment, you know, with the all I was
Speaker 4: living with at the time, and I hear some banging
Speaker 4: on the door, you know, FBI and police officers come
Speaker 4: to my door. They arrest me, and the first thing
Speaker 4: I tell them, look, you're arresting the wrong person. I
Speaker 4: had the clothes that I had bought on the couch.
Speaker 4: The receipts are still in the back, the clothes are
Speaker 4: still in the back, and I'm like, look, just go
Speaker 4: to the mall and ask to see the surveillance footage
Speaker 4: and basically you'll see that I have an alibi at
Speaker 4: the time the crime took place. You know, you can't
Speaker 4: beat a video, and that they can talk to Krishagov,
Speaker 4: who was a security guard at the time to find
Speaker 4: out whether or not I was at the mall.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but unfortunately they weren't interested in solving the case.
Speaker 2: They were interested in fixing the facts to match the
Speaker 2: name that they got from Norris Holder. So you were
Speaker 2: arrested around two am. What happened next.
Speaker 4: When I was in the homicide office, it's two officers
Speaker 4: that came and talked to me, Thomas Carroll and Joseph Nickerson,
Speaker 4: and I kept repeating the same story. Now they claim
Speaker 4: they went to the mall, yet for some reason reason,
Speaker 4: there's no surveillance footage that can be found. I believe
Speaker 4: they have this footage. I reported about this before the
Speaker 4: Lamar Johnson case and come to find out years later
Speaker 4: they withheld recordings in Lamar Johnson case. So it's like
Speaker 4: a pattern down there dealing with these officers.
Speaker 2: A pattern that is unfortunately prevalent in Saint Louis, and
Speaker 2: let's face it, around this whole country as are alleged
Speaker 2: false confessions or fabricated statements, which we'll get into in
Speaker 2: a bit. But first, what happened in that interrogation room.
Speaker 4: I told them, look, I didn't have anything to do
Speaker 4: with the crime. So They're like, okay, well, if you
Speaker 4: didn't commit this crime and give us your DNA, I'm like, sure, shit,
Speaker 4: I ain't got none to do what you can have it.
Speaker 7: When I was in prison, I used to always ask
Speaker 7: guys who would say they're innocent. One of the first
Speaker 7: quers I said, would you be one to do a
Speaker 7: DNA test? And almost ninety nine point nine percent of
Speaker 7: the people who are really innocent said, I will do
Speaker 7: a DNA test. I will do any forensic tests that
Speaker 7: I can do to prove my inn And Billy falls
Speaker 7: into the category who said I want to do anything
Speaker 7: and everything possible.
Speaker 4: Next thing they do, they'd sailed to a van you
Speaker 4: know that was used in the crime. Was soaked in gasoline.
Speaker 4: You know, so if you don't have any gasoline on
Speaker 4: your clothes, you know that can help prove that you
Speaker 4: weren't there. So I willingly gave him my DNA and
Speaker 4: my clothes.
Speaker 3: I mean the fact that this entire case was covered
Speaker 3: in gasoline, so to speak, and Billy has none on him.
Speaker 2: They tested the co defendant his clothes were sure enough,
Speaker 2: every bench of them had gasoline residue on them.
Speaker 7: Billy had a credible alibi DNA test results came back negative.
Speaker 3: They left open the question whose DNA is it? And
Speaker 3: that hasn't been pursued, hasn't been shown, but it's certainly
Speaker 3: not Billy's.
Speaker 2: So take take us back there, Billy to the interrogation
Speaker 2: and id process.
Speaker 4: Next thing I know, an FBI agent comes into the room,
Speaker 4: Agent Jan Hartman. You know, she started reading my right.
Speaker 4: This is the first time I was ever read my
Speaker 4: right silent. I'm like, well, look, I want a lawyer
Speaker 4: from the court period. I'm done talking. I don't have
Speaker 4: anything to say. You all aren't going to believe me. So,
Speaker 4: according to her trial testimony, she never told anybody about
Speaker 4: my request for an attorney. So one officer comes in,
Speaker 4: he conducted the lineup. I'm like, well, look, you know,
Speaker 4: where's my attorney at And he was like, you know,
Speaker 4: you don't need an attorney for this. I'm like, but
Speaker 4: I asked for one. He's like, well, you can get
Speaker 4: one afterword. So they took me to the lineup. And
Speaker 4: now here's the crazy part about this lineup. I'm the
Speaker 4: tallest person in the damn lineup. They have nobody close
Speaker 4: to six' two in this. Lineup nobody who looks like
Speaker 4: me in this, Lineup and to make matters, worse he
Speaker 4: puts me in position number. THREE i am the tallest
Speaker 4: person in this, thing And i'm beside the two shortest
Speaker 4: people inside This so basically you're giving people the person
Speaker 4: you want them to.
Speaker 2: Pick not only is it, suggestive but it's also telling
Speaker 2: about the description they had.
Speaker 4: Exactly five, eight five. Ten and like our, lineup a
Speaker 4: lot of people when they envision, lineups envisioning you behind
Speaker 4: the glass and the witnesses are outside of the. Thing
Speaker 4: The Saint louis if they have a piece of, cloth
Speaker 4: it's like a black piece of cloth right, there so
Speaker 4: you can. See you can actually see the damn person
Speaker 4: who's basically identifying, you you, know and you can hear.
Speaker 4: Them and this is just how hilarious my lineup. Was
Speaker 4: this lady il. Mcgilliam you, know they were telling, her,
Speaker 4: well can you identify the person you? Saw she picks
Speaker 4: the person in position number. Two, now if you look
Speaker 4: at this person in my lineup, photo this dude has
Speaker 4: a freaking full. Beard he looks nothing like, me and
Speaker 4: he fished the description that she gave of the person
Speaker 4: she saw at the. Crime so NOW i hear this.
Speaker 4: Guy he comes on and, say, hey, look we think
Speaker 4: it's the guy in position number. Three can we bring him?
Speaker 4: Forward and you look at, him she was, like are you?
Speaker 4: Sure he's like. Yeah so they told the number two
Speaker 4: guy go back and they take me out of the,
Speaker 4: lineup and she was, like, YEAH i think.
Speaker 6: You might be.
Speaker 4: Right. Wow if you go to my, transcripts she will
Speaker 4: tell you she picked the guy in position number. Two
Speaker 4: so why would you pick somebody five a full, beard
Speaker 4: full head of, hair and yet that would a sudden
Speaker 4: you switch your account to somebody six' to two small
Speaker 4: beard at. The time so come to, find out, you
Speaker 4: know in a, dispatch tape she actually is reporting that
Speaker 4: she couldn't even describe the person. She saw this is
Speaker 4: on their, Own recordings so my attorney didn't. Find it
Speaker 4: it was never presented on my defense. Or anything but
Speaker 4: yet this woman was allowed to pick somebody in position
Speaker 4: number two who was clearly DIFFERENT than, i was and
Speaker 4: then basically come to court change, her story claimed that
Speaker 4: she never told the. Officers that and then we have
Speaker 4: the recordings to prove that the prosecutors presented.
Speaker 2: False testimony and this wasn't the only time The prosecutors
Speaker 2: no only put on false testimony in, this case nor
Speaker 2: was it the last time that one of the quote
Speaker 2: unquote eyewitnesses picked someone out when they had no business
Speaker 2: doing so because they admitted not having seen, the assailant
Speaker 2: like the guy who had followed the van from the
Speaker 2: bank to, The Park.
Speaker 4: William Green william green walked in. The ROOM like, i
Speaker 4: said you can clearly hear what the person is, telling them,
Speaker 4: you know talking to. The witnesses he comes in the
Speaker 4: door and he, tells, THEM look i can't. Identify anybody
Speaker 4: you know what the officer, tells him just, Pick anybody
Speaker 4: and that's exactly what. He does he just did a.
Speaker 4: Random pick he never. Picked me but why would you
Speaker 4: even take?
Speaker 2: That chance the same reason we have to remind people
Speaker 2: that black, lives matter as well as why that statement
Speaker 2: is ever met with?
Speaker 4: Any, Pushback exactly, i'm no, full fact my life. Didn't
Speaker 4: matter when you're going, through that when you're sitting in
Speaker 4: this situation and you're hearing these things, going on, you're,
Speaker 4: like man WHAT did i do to? Deserve this why
Speaker 4: are these people doing what they're doing when basically everything
Speaker 4: shows that. They're lying.
Speaker 2: So you have two witnesses who admitted in front of
Speaker 2: you that their identifications were. Entirely invalid and then you
Speaker 2: have these two park workers who said that they gave
Speaker 2: the assailant a ride and that the assailant was not wearing,
Speaker 2: a mask so they got a. Good look as we
Speaker 2: already pointed out that dispatch tapes proved that these two
Speaker 2: accounts were. Also lies they were standing there with the
Speaker 2: police saying that they had pointed the assailant toward the.
Speaker 4: Metrolink exactly but my attorney never presented. THIS recording i
Speaker 4: found the recorders a couple of, years AGO so i
Speaker 4: just found out. ABOUT it i knew they had turned
Speaker 4: over these dispatch, tape transcripts but they only gave me.
Speaker 4: Six pages do you know the actual recording is over
Speaker 4: an hour and a.
Speaker 2: Half long my producer transcribed. These tapes the ninety minute
Speaker 2: segment you're talking about comes out to thirty, nine pages
Speaker 2: and that's what the artificial, intelligence transcriber missing a lot
Speaker 2: of the.
Speaker 4: Actual words, so basically they withheld the fact that they
Speaker 4: knew that both park workers.
Speaker 2: Were lying that or they were counting on your attorney
Speaker 2: not doing. His job so we already heard about al
Speaker 2: Mcgillion And. William green so what happened when these park
Speaker 2: workers walked into the.
Speaker 4: Lineup Room When william green didn't pick, me out the,
Speaker 4: officer walked, You Know william. Green out when they opened,
Speaker 4: the door you can see the two park orders standing side.
Speaker 4: By side the officer, were, like look, you know we
Speaker 4: think it's the guy in position. Number three before they
Speaker 4: even walk into, the room they, were, like, oh, yeah
Speaker 4: yeah it's the guy in position. Number three and the officer, tells,
Speaker 4: him no you won't have to come in and, identify
Speaker 4: them so we can put it. On record so they
Speaker 4: come in and pick me in position.
Speaker 2: Number three so this total sham identification procedure where all
Speaker 2: the witnesses are ready and willing to help out the
Speaker 2: boys in blue with whatever. They Need Plus, norris holder
Speaker 2: who's incentivized to try to avoid the death penalty even
Speaker 2: though that ended up backfiring. For him this is essentially
Speaker 2: the that's all they had. Against you all the, other
Speaker 2: evidence or let's call it what, it is the actual
Speaker 2: evadence told a totally.
Speaker 4: Different story They tested holder's clothes for traces. Of gasoline
Speaker 4: i'm talking about, the shoes, his fox, his pants, his
Speaker 4: SHIRT his. T shirt everything he had on came back
Speaker 4: positive for traces. OF gasoline i gave you. My clothes
Speaker 4: not a single trace of gasoline was found.
Speaker 2: On anything and they knew that as well as that
Speaker 2: you didn't match any of the. Physical descriptions you didn't
Speaker 2: have the injury to your right hand that was described by,
Speaker 2: the witnesses an injury that would have explained the blood
Speaker 2: left behind on the strap to a. Bulletproof vest it
Speaker 2: was tested for both yours and THE, victims dna. Both
Speaker 2: negative yet still some pile, some way they chose to
Speaker 2: believe holder and basically RIG the. Id process but they
Speaker 2: didn't stop with just. One fix your attorney could have
Speaker 2: found all of, this evidence so they needed, some more right.
Speaker 4: You know they wanted me to confess to, the CRIME
Speaker 4: and i TOLD him i don't have anything to do with.
Speaker 2: This crime so you maintained your innocence. Through out you
Speaker 2: were quote unquote idd in that. Fixed lineup but now
Speaker 2: when you're going, to trial you. Receive discovery NEXT thing,
Speaker 2: I know i read a report a few.
Speaker 4: Days later basically he's SAYING that i confessed to.
Speaker 2: The crime, Get this there's not a single piece of
Speaker 2: evidence to show that a confession ever.
Speaker 3: Took, place well, to me it's a perfect example of
Speaker 3: a larger phenomenon that we, know well which is that
Speaker 3: when there's this pressure to close, the case they start
Speaker 3: making shit up so they feel like they need a
Speaker 3: little bit More on billy, onll, so hey, He, confessed
Speaker 3: well where's the evidence of? This confession was? It? Recorded
Speaker 3: no were?
Speaker 4: Their?
Speaker 3: Notes, yes okay then where are? The notes we don't have.
Speaker 3: Them anymore we. Lost them we threw. IT away, i mean,
Speaker 3: come on that's, just bullshit beginning middle.
Speaker 2: To end they didn't even say they, lost it which
Speaker 2: would have like a, you know they said they threw.
Speaker 2: It away, SO yeah i mean they threw away the
Speaker 2: only evidence that they had that this alleged confession ever. Took,
Speaker 2: PLACE yeah, I know. I'm not i'm.
Speaker 3: Not really usually they say it was lost in. A
Speaker 3: flood we've heard that in a number. Of, cases yeah we,
Speaker 3: had it but it was lost in. A flood in,
Speaker 3: this case, they, say help we threw. It away they.
Speaker 4: Claimed that after, THE lineup i demanded to speak To
Speaker 4: A lieutenant HENDERSON because i allegedly knew him from a.
Speaker 4: Previous case the previous case they mentioned is a friend.
Speaker 4: Of mine he. Was murdered we were the victims in,
Speaker 4: that case and basically they so they used my friend's
Speaker 4: murder to SAY that i confessed to this black OFFICER
Speaker 4: because i knew HIM and i. Trusted, HIM now i
Speaker 4: kept telling, My lawyers, I'M like i don't even know.
Speaker 4: This guy ONE thing i do know is that when
Speaker 4: my friend, was killed there wasn't one black officer that
Speaker 4: came to that crime scene. That day, So basically i'm
Speaker 4: telling my lawyer to look for this police REPORT so
Speaker 4: i can prove, that they, you know manufactured. This line
Speaker 4: he never. FINDS it i find this myself a few,
Speaker 4: years later and come to Find out henderson didn't even worked.
Speaker 4: That day so HOW can i ask to confess to
Speaker 4: SOMEBODY that i never even? Met before but we were
Speaker 4: never able to front him.
Speaker 2: With that there was a lot of bullshit slinging at
Speaker 2: your trial and a near total abdication of duty by your,
Speaker 2: defense attorney who could have done so much more with
Speaker 2: what was available to him to discredit this horrendous lie
Speaker 2: that perhaps even the jury, saw through but they most
Speaker 2: definitely were not provided with what they needed to see
Speaker 2: the real truth in. THIS case, i mean let's, face
Speaker 2: it the very least he could have done was present
Speaker 2: the negative gasoline RESIDUE and dna test results that would
Speaker 2: have had a big impact on.
Speaker 3: THE jury, i mean the fact that he didn't even,
Speaker 3: highlight this didn't even make it part of, his case
Speaker 3: part of.
Speaker 2: HIS defense a government forensic expert even testify the trial
Speaker 2: saying that anyone who had been in that van would
Speaker 2: have had gasoline present on. Their clothing yet he just
Speaker 2: didn't seize. THAT moment, i mean any first year law
Speaker 2: student would have known to.
Speaker 3: Do that and then there's all these different, eyewitness, discrepancies.
Speaker 2: Right and as, we mentioned there were four alleged, eyewitness
Speaker 2: IDs and considering the dispatch tapes and interview recordings that
Speaker 2: were available, to him more could have been done to
Speaker 2: impeach all. Of them two of, the eyewitnesses, after all
Speaker 2: said on the tapes that they were unable to identify.
Speaker 2: The purpse on top of what they said and did at,
Speaker 2: the lineup then you've got these two park workers saying
Speaker 2: that they gave the assailant a ride And. Identified billy
Speaker 2: but your attorney should have researched and pointed out that
Speaker 2: that testimony was contradicted by what they had said in
Speaker 2: their initial statements via the. Dispatch tape he.
Speaker 4: Didn't present one piece of evidence on.
Speaker 2: My behalf he crossed examine these. Witnesses though that's it all.
Speaker 4: The evidence found that he had. Access to he didn't even.
Speaker 3: Look forward his public defender did an unconscionably, poor job
Speaker 3: didn't seek any Confirmation of, billie's alibi just sort of
Speaker 3: let it go.
Speaker 7: TO me, i mean you think about somebody go shopping
Speaker 7: in a very. Public place the first thing you're going
Speaker 7: to do is have an investigator to every, single store
Speaker 7: speak to, people videos trying to find witnesses.
Speaker 3: DOWN right, i mean there could have been receipts from
Speaker 3: the mall security footage which instantly would Have, cleared billy
Speaker 3: and he didn't do anything and didn't make any attempt to.
Speaker 3: Obtain that, and now of course it's far.
Speaker 2: Too late, of course there was a security guard that
Speaker 2: gave him a ride, As well Chris schagag how do
Speaker 2: you not present him or look into when he picked up.
Speaker 2: His paycheck there would have certainly been a record that
Speaker 2: showed that this took place at the time of, the
Speaker 2: crime which would Have. Cleared billy but none of this.
Speaker 2: Was Done norris holder identified you in an effort to
Speaker 2: save himself and his actual partner in crime from death
Speaker 2: row little good that ended up doing for, him. Anyway though,
Speaker 2: and meanwhile there's the first person that, he named whose Name.
Speaker 2: Was john this is another lead that could have and
Speaker 2: should have. Been developed but beyond the leads it could have,
Speaker 2: been developed there was everything that was already Available that
Speaker 2: billy has been able to use to prove that the
Speaker 2: witnesses and the police, Were lying which makes this all
Speaker 2: so unbelievable that this ever even made it.
Speaker 4: To, trial yeah all the Evidence that i'm presented on
Speaker 4: my behalf is in their, Own files so they knew
Speaker 4: that when they presented, this testimony when they concocted this
Speaker 4: story and claimed all, these things they had their actual
Speaker 4: reports that showed something other than what they were actually,
Speaker 4: Testifying too so it wasn't like it was just a
Speaker 4: lot concocted by. The officers the prosecutors basically allowed them
Speaker 4: to tell these lies because they had these files with
Speaker 4: them when they put these people on.
Speaker 2: The, stand yeah you think that would make them eligible for?
Speaker 2: Attempted murder and perhaps your trial attorney could be and
Speaker 2: should be considered for criminal negligence because without the defense,
Speaker 2: you needed the jury was left with this pack of
Speaker 2: lies and not. Much else and before we go to
Speaker 2: this trial's, INEVITABLE conclusion i want to talk about this
Speaker 2: really makes. Me sick this electric stun Belt that billy
Speaker 2: was made to wear throughout. The proceedings what in the
Speaker 2: actual fuck is up?
Speaker 3: WITH that i don't, Have, WORDS jason i. Don't know
Speaker 3: it's part of, the dehumanizing degrading process to scare jurors
Speaker 3: into viewing somebody as being responsible and, perhaps worthy so,
Speaker 3: to speak of getting the.
Speaker 4: Death penalty my, thing was, you know you want to
Speaker 4: stand up and, you know kind of, defend yourself especially
Speaker 4: when you're not being defended by. Your turn but the
Speaker 4: thing About, the marshalls they, were, like look if you
Speaker 4: make any, quick movements we're going to push. THE button
Speaker 4: i don't even remember how many voults this. THING is
Speaker 4: i couldn't, SAY anything i couldn't.
Speaker 2: Do anything they were essentially treating you, like cattle and by,
Speaker 2: the way that's not even the way cattle should be.
Speaker 4: TREATED exactly i was called a murderous dog by. My
Speaker 4: prosecutor my jury was never allowed to basically see, the
Speaker 4: truth the, whole truth and nothing but. The truth they
Speaker 4: got half of a story that was concocted by officers
Speaker 4: that could have easily been disputed. With evidence and so
Speaker 4: That's why i'm kind of hoping that this platform allows
Speaker 4: my jury to hear this stuff, and, say hey you,
Speaker 4: KNOW what I think i made.
Speaker 2: A mistake did you have any hope that they were
Speaker 2: going to see that at.
Speaker 4: The, Time, NO honestly i told, My mom and this
Speaker 4: is a sad part. ABOUT it i told my mom
Speaker 4: right before, THE verdict, i, Say look i'm going to get.
Speaker 4: Found guilty she, was, like no don't. SAY that, i, say,
Speaker 4: look mom my lawyer isn't going to present, a defense
Speaker 4: so don't. BE surprised i prepared my mom emotionally and
Speaker 4: prepare my family to accept the FACT that i was
Speaker 4: going to get. FOUND guilty i, accepted it. You know
Speaker 4: and here's. THE thing i wasn't mad at. MY jury
Speaker 4: i was more mad at my defense attorney for him
Speaker 4: not defending me and proving to THEM that i. Was
Speaker 4: INNOCENT so i wasn't mad, at them BECAUSE if i
Speaker 4: were to sit on, THAT jury i would have to
Speaker 4: find a person guilty there WAS nothing i. Could do
Speaker 4: from THE moment i got. Locked up that started my
Speaker 4: mission to prove. My innocence one BECAUSE when i went,
Speaker 4: into court, you know the victim's family, was THERE and
Speaker 4: i saw people looking at me with so much anger
Speaker 4: and so much pain and so. Much Hate and, I'M
Speaker 4: like i got people hate me when they have their.
Speaker 4: Own Person so, I'm, Like okay i'm going to make
Speaker 4: it my mission to Prove that i'm. In this and,
Speaker 4: YOU know i made that same promise to. My mom
Speaker 4: and basically that started my JOURNEY where i started reading all.
Speaker 4: THE fouls i read every, single paid every, single sentence
Speaker 4: and re, transcript EVERYTHING and i start putting together at.
Speaker 4: This huggle and when you see the story that they
Speaker 4: tell at, my trial and you see all the evidence
Speaker 4: that they had to show, something different you start to,
Speaker 4: ask yourself why would somebody go this far to convict
Speaker 4: me for something THEY know i, didn't do where their
Speaker 4: own Evidence proves. I'm missing so that has been the
Speaker 4: Burden that i've had. To carry, you know in a sense.
Speaker 4: Being innocent being innocent is a. Burden man, you know
Speaker 4: every day you're fighting, to live you're fighting to prove.
Speaker 4: Your innocence you're pro fighting to convince judges to do
Speaker 4: the right thing who won't do the.
Speaker 2: Right thing so your first appeal happened in two thousand,
Speaker 2: and one and it was based On Your fifth amendment
Speaker 2: right to be indicted by a. Grand, jury essentially the
Speaker 2: effort sought to get you off of.
Speaker 3: Death throw what's interesting is that his sentence. Was mixed
Speaker 3: so the, first count which was bank robbery in which a,
Speaker 3: killing occurs he was convicted and. Got life on, the
Speaker 3: second which was using a firearm during and in relation
Speaker 3: to a federal crime of violence which resulted, in murder
Speaker 3: he was convicted and got. Death penalty then that was
Speaker 3: Appealed by billy and it was reversed so commuted. To
Speaker 3: life but then the state appealed it To The eighth
Speaker 3: circuit and made back to death and put him on.
Speaker 3: Death ROW but i think the fact that you had
Speaker 3: these different outcomes just suggest there's something. Fishy here and
Speaker 3: also the fact that the state appealed to get it
Speaker 3: back on death row just shows how hell bent they
Speaker 3: are on having the highest possible outcome and win for.
Speaker 3: Their case based on what they decided, to pursue which was.
Speaker 3: Death penalty the best predictor of whether somebody is going
Speaker 3: to get the death penalty is the race of. The
Speaker 3: victim so having a white victim and, black perpetrator suddenly
Speaker 3: the odds of prosecutors going for death penalty, shoot up
Speaker 3: as they did in.
Speaker 2: This case while we're on the subject, of race in
Speaker 2: a community that was half white and, half black literally
Speaker 2: split evenly somehow other the jury pool ended up being ten.
Speaker 2: White jurors so the prosecutors found all sorts of reasons
Speaker 2: to strike black people from, the jury and on appeal
Speaker 2: in two thousand, And Nine billy allen's lawyers sought an
Speaker 2: evidentiary hearing on the, race issue noting that as of
Speaker 2: the Twelfth of may two thousand, and nine of the
Speaker 2: four hundred and sixty federal defendants against WHOM The Us
Speaker 2: attorney general had authorized federal prosecutors to seek the, death
Speaker 2: penalty and this will shock, no one but one hundred
Speaker 2: and nineteen of them, were white and three hundred and
Speaker 2: forty one were from minoriti racial or, ethnic groups of
Speaker 2: whom two hundred and thirty seven. Were BLACK so i,
Speaker 2: KNOW today i don't know the percentage of them is
Speaker 2: probably about the same thirteen percent Of the american population,
Speaker 2: is black and yet somehow, or other over fifty percent
Speaker 2: of the time that death penalty was used weaponized against
Speaker 2: people innocent or guilty in the, federal system it was
Speaker 2: used against. Black people and, then fully another one hundred
Speaker 2: and four of those four hundred and sixty total were
Speaker 2: people from other. Minority groups the direct quote from the
Speaker 2: government to this incredible statistical evidence, was quote there are
Speaker 2: three kinds, of, lies lies, damn lies. And statistics this is,
Speaker 2: so nonsensical it's, like cartoonish but again. Deadly serious and,
Speaker 2: a judge, of course ruled that even if the court
Speaker 2: would agree With, mister allen that these statistics amounted to
Speaker 2: a compelling indictment of the federal government's use of the
Speaker 2: death penalty against, minoriti defendants which is basically him almost
Speaker 2: tacitly acknowledging that. It did he goes on, to say
Speaker 2: the laws nevertheless clear that a defend and cannot make
Speaker 2: out a selective prosecution claim under the Equal protection clause
Speaker 2: without evidence that there was discriminatory motive to prosecute him.
Speaker 3: In, particular yeah so that's the lasting legacy of one
Speaker 3: of The Worst supreme court decisions in, our lifetime which
Speaker 3: is nineteen eighty seven McCleskey, versus kemp where there is
Speaker 3: an overwhelming finding that still exists today and statistical pattern
Speaker 3: that's indisputable that you have an overrepresentation of people, of
Speaker 3: Color Particularly, african americans who are sentenced. To death, it's
Speaker 3: undeniable And The supreme, court says even though that may,
Speaker 3: be true it will not help Any Individual african american
Speaker 3: defendant sentenced to death unless they can show that race
Speaker 3: was a bias in their. Particular case and the only
Speaker 3: way to show that is basically getting a secret recording
Speaker 3: of the prosecutor USING the n word or somehow something
Speaker 3: that would be just so egregious that would be caught,
Speaker 3: on tape and that of course never comes. To light
Speaker 3: but we know the overall pattern. Is there we're letting
Speaker 3: these biases, run rampant And The, supreme court unfortunately it's
Speaker 3: given a green light to them and that.
Speaker 2: Continues, today yeah and while this argument with Us about
Speaker 2: billy's case, in particular and more about the bent of
Speaker 2: the entire system against, black defendants it was also one
Speaker 2: that became more pressing at the time there was a
Speaker 2: moratorium on executions on the federal level that started in
Speaker 2: two thousand, and six but it was lifted in. Twenty
Speaker 2: nineteen the previous occupant Of The oval office spent the
Speaker 2: last gasp of his power overseeing the first seventeen executions
Speaker 2: in a generation on the, federal level sixteen by lethal
Speaker 2: injection and one.
Speaker 7: By electrocution he's the same person who sought to bring
Speaker 7: the death penalty Back In New york state many, years
Speaker 7: ago seeking the death penalty and execution of several young
Speaker 7: men that were wrongfully Accused In New york City.
Speaker 2: In central park five From The central park five now
Speaker 2: known As the. Exonerated five and the Fact that Billy
Speaker 2: allen bore witnessed these executions from his vantage point as
Speaker 2: one of the long serving people on. Death row in
Speaker 2: spite of this remarkable body of, exculpatory Evidence so billy
Speaker 2: also raised claims of ineffective assistance or counsel for the
Speaker 2: reasons that we've already laid, out here and of course
Speaker 2: the gasoline RESIDUE and dna tests that truly Do. Exculpay
Speaker 2: billy let's, FACE it.
Speaker 4: I wrote a letter to, my ATTORNEY and i framed
Speaker 4: it this way for A reason, i, SAID basically i
Speaker 4: was about to file. ON appeal I located, DNA evidence
Speaker 4: i located, GASOLINE results i located all. This evidence had
Speaker 4: you known about these THINGS before i went, to trial
Speaker 4: would you have presented these things on? My behalf and
Speaker 4: he in his letter in his response, to me he specifically,
Speaker 4: says yes he would have presented these things had he
Speaker 4: known about them. Before trial now here's the thing. About
Speaker 4: it these things were in the records that he handed over.
Speaker 4: To me there was no way in hill that my
Speaker 4: trial Was FAIR when i had an attorney who specifically
Speaker 4: responded to a letter that had he do about? These
Speaker 4: things he, represented them but yet he had these things
Speaker 4: in his possession and never looked.
Speaker 2: For, him yeah we've seen some pretty grotesque examples of
Speaker 2: ineffective assistance of, counsel before but this is a whole.
Speaker 2: New level but yet somehow you were denied on that front.
Speaker 4: As well all those denials and basically the, the rejection
Speaker 4: it becomes a burden on, your shoulders. You know so
Speaker 4: that has been my burden for the last, few years,
Speaker 4: you know trying to find all. The evidence and Now
Speaker 4: that i've, FOUND it i can't get people to listen
Speaker 4: what does it take for people? To care what does
Speaker 4: it take for situations? To change and, TO me i
Speaker 4: guess that goes To the. Georgetown Project the, GEORGETOWN project
Speaker 4: i felt like ignited a hope in a flame that has,
Speaker 4: you know basically dimmed over. The years and that was my,
Speaker 4: first introduction, you Know to Mark and marty into the,
Speaker 4: you know the Students. At GEORGETOWN and, i asked, YOU
Speaker 4: know I think I. ASKED mark i, was, like well
Speaker 4: what is your process of? Picking people and he, was
Speaker 4: like we go through thousands and thousands of applications and
Speaker 4: only pick five and your Stood out and that meant everything.
Speaker 2: To me and of course You mean georgetown's making An
Speaker 2: exuner Re class, and remarkably it's an, undergraduate course so
Speaker 2: you don't have to be a, law student a, forensic
Speaker 2: scientist or a private investigator to look at some of
Speaker 2: the evidence, and say wait, a minute how did this
Speaker 2: actually even go forward? To trial how much less result in?
Speaker 2: A Conviction, and marty, YOU know i watched the remarkable
Speaker 2: video that you and your students put together With the
Speaker 2: making an, exander reclass, of course and those kids in
Speaker 2: that class never cease to blow my mind with, the
Speaker 2: amazing amazing work that they do semester, after semester class,
Speaker 2: after class and of course their work has led two
Speaker 2: the actual freeing of. Four people, NOW right I Mean,
Speaker 2: Keith Washington, Valentino Dixon, eric riddick And Now Orlando. Trey,
Speaker 2: Jones right these kids are doing absolutely. Phenomenal jobs some
Speaker 2: of them have even come to work for us or
Speaker 2: have gone on to law school working as paralegals on
Speaker 2: pro bono cases or. Other nonprofits they are truly incredible
Speaker 2: assets to this movement, for Justice and i'm so glad
Speaker 2: that you all Landed on.
Speaker 7: Billy's case, billy's case, to me it was just a
Speaker 7: multitude of things that. Went wrong every week that, we
Speaker 7: live we see another man or woman. Become exonerated and
Speaker 7: what we also see is that something from the original case,
Speaker 7: went wrong and it was either from the prosecutor the
Speaker 7: police's point. Of view there were, some wrongdoing, forensic misconduct or.
Speaker 7: Incompetent lawyers And in, BILLY'S case i think he had
Speaker 7: a little bit.
Speaker 3: Of everything there was someone else who Is seen withholder
Speaker 3: planning the, bank robbery but that was just. Never pursued
Speaker 3: there was an anonymous tip that we don't know much
Speaker 3: More about we just know that the initials of the SUSPECT,
Speaker 3: are dm and obviously That's Not BILLY. Allen dm but
Speaker 3: we don't know more and haven't been able to find
Speaker 3: out more because it's been kept. Under wraps but that
Speaker 3: very well could be the second Person who holder.
Speaker 2: Is PROTECTING, there's DM, there's Jb as, billy mentioned and
Speaker 2: a whole lot of potential avenues if you could just access,
Speaker 2: these materials but they've been fighting it every step of.
Speaker 2: The way now there was renewed efforts to TEST the
Speaker 2: dna evidence against other, potential suspects which was the focus
Speaker 2: of your filings in. Twenty twenty not only is there
Speaker 2: this bloody strap that excludes you and the victim that
Speaker 2: they refused to RUN through codis or test against, anyone
Speaker 2: else there's also the matter of a damp cloth that
Speaker 2: was found near the fence where the second suspect Escaped From.
Speaker 2: Forrest park they test did IT for dna and it,
Speaker 2: excluded you but have since sealed. Those results i'm sure
Speaker 2: if they Had, matched billy we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Speaker 2: Right now so how have those efforts gone?
Speaker 4: Thus far thanks stop us every year from the First
Speaker 4: year i've filed, pro say my lawyers, Have filed we've
Speaker 4: done everything we could to get them to basically do all,
Speaker 4: the testing and my judge basically is has refused every
Speaker 4: single request and the prosecutor has opposed every form of
Speaker 4: testing in, MY case i can't get.
Speaker 3: Nothing tested if we could TEST that dna against other,
Speaker 3: possible suspects who knows what would come up in. This
Speaker 3: case but there's such, A conspiracy, i mean that's not
Speaker 3: too strong a word to say that police and prosecutors
Speaker 3: have in just ceiling tight, a conviction even if it's the,
Speaker 3: wrong one even if there's evidence that proves that it was.
Speaker 4: A mistake my case isn't one of Those where i'm
Speaker 4: just asking, people to, you know take a chance. On
Speaker 4: me i'm asking people to believe in my evidence and fight.
Speaker 2: For me so that's where this is at. Right Now
Speaker 2: and billy and his team of fighting this on, two
Speaker 2: fronts trying to get access to those biological materials as
Speaker 2: well as seeking a Pardon From. President biden there's a
Speaker 2: petition among so many other action steps linked in. The
Speaker 2: bio but go, there now, don't wait go to the
Speaker 2: bio click, on it sign, the petition and in addition
Speaker 2: to all, of that there's the making an. Exonery video
Speaker 2: please check all of. It out we also encourage you
Speaker 2: To join billy Supporters this November, AND washington dc for.
Speaker 2: A rally you Can follow Billy. On instagram It's free
Speaker 2: BILLY B i L L i E allen A L
Speaker 2: l e n So free billy all to. Receive updates
Speaker 2: and now we go to our closing where first, OF
Speaker 2: all i thank all of you for. Joining us i'm
Speaker 2: just gonna kick back in, my chair turn my microphone
Speaker 2: off and just listen for any closing thoughts that you.
Speaker 2: All have let's Start, with Mark, then marty and then
Speaker 2: And then billy over to you to close.
Speaker 4: This Out.
Speaker 3: Thanks jason billy is an. Extraordinary person he, is warm he,
Speaker 3: is caring he, is funny he, is compassionate he, is,
Speaker 3: dedicated hardworking and he's. Incredibly TALENTED and i got to
Speaker 3: see a lot of. HIS artwork i actually have some
Speaker 3: of it now in my Office. At Georgetown but billy
Speaker 3: is himself a beacon of light and hope for. This
Speaker 3: world AND what i really hope more than anything is
Speaker 3: that the rest of the world will Discover the Billy
Speaker 3: that i've come to know, and love and to recognize
Speaker 3: his talent and to appreciate, his humanity and that hopefully
Speaker 3: he'll have that opportunity to connect with the world as a.
Speaker 7: Freeman soon this is TWO things i want people. To
Speaker 7: understand rollful convictions is. An epidemic in twenty, twenty one
Speaker 7: we had one hundred and seventy three exonerations that were
Speaker 7: recognized By National. Registered exonerations twenty, twenty two we already
Speaker 7: have one hundred and. Seventy three billy should be added
Speaker 7: to that list in the. Near future our system can't
Speaker 7: function if we keep convicting, innocent people and when there's
Speaker 7: evidence that somebody was, denied justice we let them languish
Speaker 7: in prison day after day.
Speaker 4: After day.
Speaker 7: The day has to Come where billy gets his day.
Speaker 7: For JUSTICE and i look forward to the Day, where,
Speaker 7: mark myself our students can be waiting outside of a
Speaker 7: prison somewhere like we have for four other individuals To
Speaker 7: watch billy walk out.
Speaker 4: Of prison i'm not just somebody who's saying, they're innocent.
Speaker 4: You know i'm somebody who can show You that. I'm
Speaker 4: innocent and, TO me i feel like that shitting night people,
Speaker 4: to say you, know what let me go to bat for.
Speaker 4: This guy, You know, i'll get, you know letters from, people,
Speaker 4: Saying hey i'm praying, for You and, i'm, like, okay well,
Speaker 4: YOU know i appreciate, the PRAYERS but i need you to,
Speaker 4: speak out, you know because you need those voices in
Speaker 4: high places to be able to hear that you. Do
Speaker 4: CARE and i feel like the more people who show that,
Speaker 4: they care the more the system is going to have
Speaker 4: to care and gonna have to give us the testing
Speaker 4: that we're looking for and allow the evidence to be
Speaker 4: the thing that motivates you to want to go out
Speaker 4: there and fight for me to want to go. Out
Speaker 4: there and, you know every time you're on, social media
Speaker 4: instead of posting about the new foods, you're eating to
Speaker 4: be able, to, say hey you, know What Free billy.
Speaker 4: Allen period, you Know, in november we'll be going TO,
Speaker 4: d c, you know to basically do a MARCH on
Speaker 4: dc to present. My Case and i'm hoping that people
Speaker 4: start raising their voice and have an influence when we
Speaker 4: do file our Petition to biden to be able to make,
Speaker 4: him say you, know what we're always asking another country
Speaker 4: to do right by. Their citizens we fail this guy.
Speaker 4: Right here let us do the right thing now and
Speaker 4: return him to. His FAMILY and I guess i'm going
Speaker 4: to read you SOMETHING that i think will help you
Speaker 4: kind of GATHER who i am in. My journey and
Speaker 4: it's Called long soldier to find myself engaged in the
Speaker 4: conflict that some have deemed to be a battle between
Speaker 4: good and evil in a desire who they have labeled.
Speaker 4: The latter this battle is not One where thunderu's word
Speaker 4: will be heard fought about a stench of gun smoke,
Speaker 4: charred flesh nor where blood stains will tak the same
Speaker 4: round with footsteps travel to. The, froe no this battle
Speaker 4: is one that is rooted in the blood lines and
Speaker 4: bloodshed that painted the, stripes red and in the blue
Speaker 4: sky there weighed, fifty stars which are a time saluted
Speaker 4: or draped over the caskets the. Fallen, heroes NOW because
Speaker 4: i know that there are those who like to take
Speaker 4: one's word out of context with, Malicious, intent no there's
Speaker 4: no way in my claiming the role. Of hero i'm
Speaker 4: just one who has been wrongfully imprisoned and who wishes
Speaker 4: to defend myself against those who have brought this battle to,
Speaker 4: my doorstep and in, DOING so i plan to defend
Speaker 4: myself against, the, lies misrepresentation and advances to take my
Speaker 4: life into pretense. Of, justice NOW after i expose, this
Speaker 4: injustice if you then deem my actions to be that of,
Speaker 4: a hero know that IT is i who will not
Speaker 4: make such. A claim this battle will take place on
Speaker 4: what many have deemed to be, sacred ground or what
Speaker 4: some have said to be the foundation of, our society
Speaker 4: without which will cause chaos and leave in its. Path
Speaker 4: destruction and that battleground Is the constitutionist amendments to oversee,
Speaker 4: this battle to ensure that it's conducted without a hint, of,
Speaker 4: bias favoritism or that it will be tainted with the
Speaker 4: temptation of power or. Financial Gain Is lady, justice yet to,
Speaker 4: my disbelief though she is supposed to stand out front
Speaker 4: of the symbol of, FUNDAMENTAL fairness i could have SWORN
Speaker 4: that i saw her tip the scales of justice in
Speaker 4: favor of, my foes who already have, superior, power resources
Speaker 4: and who attack without. Malicious FORETHOUGHT though i know that
Speaker 4: the odds are, AGAINST me i do not waive her on,
Speaker 4: my STANCE and i hold tight to the hilt of
Speaker 4: my sword of truth, and evidence where my evidence is
Speaker 4: the material which it has been. FOR it i close,
Speaker 4: my eyes say, a PRAYER and i can only Hope
Speaker 4: that god Hear my please is out those stones, that
Speaker 4: golive and IT is i who am the. Lone soldier.
Speaker 2: Thank you for Listening To. Wrongful conviction you can listen
Speaker 2: to this and All the Lava for good podcasts one
Speaker 2: week early and ed free by Subscribing to Lava For
Speaker 2: good Plus On. APPLE podcasts i want to thank our,
Speaker 2: Production Team connor Hall And, kathleen fink as well as
Speaker 2: my fellow Executive Producers, Jeff Kempler, kevin Wartis And. Jeff
Speaker 2: cliber the music in this production was supplied by THREE
Speaker 2: time oscar Nominated Composer. Jay ralph be sure to follow
Speaker 2: us across all social media Platforms at Lava for good
Speaker 2: And At. Wrongful conviction you can also follow Me on
Speaker 2: Instagram At It's. Jason Flamm wrongful conviction is a Production
Speaker 2: of Lava For good podcasts and Association With Signal Company.
Speaker 1: Number one we've worked hard to ensure that all facts
Speaker 1: reported in this show. Are accurate the views and opinions
Speaker 1: expressed by the individuals featured in this show are her
Speaker 1: own and do not necessarily reflect Those of Lava for
Speaker 1: good