WEBVTT - #576 Jason Flom with Billie Allen - UPDATE 0:00:05.240 --> 0:00:08.639 Hey, it's Connor Hall, the senior producer for Wrongful Conviction 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:12.559 here with more updates and behind the scenes insights. Today 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:15.800 we're talking about pardon powers now. At the end of 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:21.280 every presidency governorship, there's usually some number of pardons and commutations. 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:25.439 Recently a notable one was Leonard Peltier, who got the 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:29.120 news just minutes before the end of the Biden administration. 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:32.720 But why not day one? I guess the smart money 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:35.720 is on the fact that so many Americans still believe 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:38.519 in the infallibility of our legal system and that a 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:42.479 guilty verdict delivered by it is unshakable. I mean that 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:45.880 appears to be the foundation of its power. In Leonard's case, 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:48.760 I believe they made him part of an FBI training 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:52.000 module as some kind of boogeyman for new FBI agents, 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:55.680 So of course agents showed up in mass to derail 0:00:55.800 --> 0:00:59.920 his pardon efforts at the end of the Clinton administration. Generally, 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:03.800 pardons and the like are perceived as having some sort 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:08.560 of soft spot for alleged violent psychopaths, rather than as 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:12.199 a critical failsafe for when the system gets it wrong, 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:15.600 which our audience knows that happens not only frequently, but 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:19.360 at times it appears to be on purpose, as does 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:23.880 the maintenance of those convictions through the appeals process. So 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:27.640 our hope is that with greater awareness of this system, 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:33.440 it's flawed human operators, and its perverse incentives like providing 0:01:33.680 --> 0:01:37.560 slave labor to American economic might, that a political will 0:01:37.720 --> 0:01:41.039 might amass to give our elected officials the courage to 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:44.800 use their pardon powers more often and throughout their terms, 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:48.840 feeling instead that they're not spending political capital just to 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:52.840 do the right thing, especially in actual innocence cases and 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:58.000 in the most crucial scenarios involving capital punishment. Now we've 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:03.560 covered plenty of state DEATHBA cases, most notably Ohio Governor 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:10.320 Dwine please do something, But I digress. On federal death row, 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:13.839 we've only covered one, and that's Billy Allen. Now, other 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:18.280 than three federal executions during the Bush administration, there hadn't 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:23.079 been any before that since nineteen sixty three, and then 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:27.440 not again until a thirteen execution spree starting in July 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:32.720 twenty twenty under President Trump, who ironically now uses his 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:36.880 pardon power pretty loosely. But I digress again. After the 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:40.360 thirteen executions in twenty twenty, he later campaigned on the 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:44.280 intention to execute the remaining forty death row inmates if 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:48.000 re elected, so with the incoming second term, there was 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:52.080 a sense of urgency around what folks, including Pope Francis, 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:55.560 had been lobbying Biden for since twenty twenty one, and 0:02:55.760 --> 0:03:00.520 just two days before Christmas twenty twenty four, President Biden 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:04.920 finally listened, commuting the sentences of thirty seven out of 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:09.320 forty of those on death row to life, including Billy Allen. 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:12.919 The three that remain are two mass shooters caught at 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:17.840 their scenes, and the alleged Boston Marathon bomber. Brian Stevenson 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:23.840 was quoted about it, saying, the death penalty is a torturous, flawed, expensive, 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:30.000 and ever filled practice that must be abolished. I commend 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:34.280 President Biden for this historic act and hope that governors 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:38.280 and state executives follow the President's lead. At a time 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:41.560 when many of our courts are abandoning their role to 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:46.920 ensure fairness and reliability in criminal cases, leadership by elected 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:51.440 officials will be more critical than ever end quote. So 0:03:53.080 --> 0:03:56.080 I'm grateful that Billy and others, some of whom may 0:03:56.080 --> 0:03:59.280 also be innocent, that they won't feel the terror they'd 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:02.840 felt during that spree in late twenty twenty. But I'm 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:07.640 also resentful that, when considering innocence cases like Billy's, that 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:12.040 our elected officials are not more courageous with their pardon powers, 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:15.880 considering the obstinates we often see from judges, as well 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:20.400 as district attorneys and attorneys general, who sometimes use conviction 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:24.320 integrity units, not as they are seemingly intended to find 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:28.520 truth and justice and right the wrongs, but to hide 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:33.599 the misconduct of their offices past. You know, in a 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:37.719 conversation recently, a respected attorney commented to me that these 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:41.719 integrity units have become the place where innocence cases go 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:47.880 to die. So stay vigilant, everybody, especially with your alleged 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:52.560 progressive prosecutors. Now, I'd like you all to consider this 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:56.680 as you listen to Billy Allen's story. When a wrongful 0:04:56.720 --> 0:05:02.839 conviction is maintained and a prosecutor knowingly continues to pursue 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:07.120 their bondage, a judge refuses to grant relief to an 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:13.960 innocent person, how is that not violence? And how is 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:19.640 the silence or inaction of a governor or president not 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:21.800 almost the same damn thing. 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:28.240 On March seventeenth, nineteen ninety seven, two armed and masked 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:31.200 men robbed a bank in Saint Louis, Missouri, and batally 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:34.160 shot a security guard named Richard Heflin in the process 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:38.160 as part of their plan to destroy evidence innovate capture. 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:42.039 They had pre soaked the getaway van with gasoline, but 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:44.640 before they got to switch from the van to a 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:49.640 second getaway vehicle, the van caught fire. One assailant, Norris Holder, 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:52.640 was arrested at the scene, but the second assailant escape 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:55.600 that was described as a black man about five nine 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:59.360 with singed hair and an injured right hand. Norris Holder 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:04.200 told investigators that the escapee was named John, but later 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:08.919 changed that name to Bill. Police arrested an acquaintance of 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:13.160 Holders named Billy Allen. Other than being black, Billy did 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:17.200 not match the initial descriptions, but curiously was somehow identified 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:21.960 by four witnesses, including Holder. Imagine being selected for this 0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:25.799 jury and hearing investigators tested by about an alleged confession, 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:29.760 as well as that four witnesses, including the only other assailant, 0:06:29.960 --> 0:06:33.840 identify Billy Allen. You might feel pretty confident in your verdict. 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:37.839 Yet here we are, almost a quarter century later to 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:42.320 publicly reveal for the very first time case breaking exculpatory 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:45.560 evidence from the state's own files that was ignored by 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:49.760 both the prosecution and the defense. Did I mentioned they 0:06:49.800 --> 0:07:06.640 send them to death? This is wrongful Conviction. Welcome back 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:10.360 to Wrongful Conviction. Today, we're going to do something I 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:13.000 don't think we've ever done before, which is that we're 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:18.880 covering a federal death penalty case. And we're honored. I'm 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:22.800 honored to have Professor Mark Howard, leader of the Making 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:27.360 an exaner reprogram at Georgetown. So Mark, welcome back to 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:28.280 Wrongful Conviction. 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:30.800 Great to be back, Jason, Thanks. 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:35.920 And with Mark is his distinguished co professor who has 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:40.960 also been on the podcast before more than once for 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:44.040 the right and the wrong reasons. Marty Tankliff was wrongfully 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:49.360 convicted himself and served seventeen years when Marty was wrongfully 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:52.240 convicted of murdering his parents, and of course he's been 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:56.880 exonerated and we've become great friends. And he also is 0:07:57.000 --> 0:08:02.800 Mark's childhood friend and the professor now at Georgetown of 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:06.600 the Making an Exanery program. So Marty tankleff es Choir, 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:12.680 Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. Thank you, you know the fact 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:17.240 that we're all here today is a beautiful thing, but 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:21.120 it's also an extremely troubling thing because we're here today 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:24.840 to talk about Billy Allen, who has been on death 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:28.200 row in the federal system for a quarter of a 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:30.400 century now, since he was nineteen years old. 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:33.320 I appreciate you, you know, you all taking an interest in 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:35.040 my story and wanting to tell it. 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:38.800 Well, Billy, yours is a story that definitely needs to 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:42.080 be told, so welcome to the show. But before we 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:44.840 get into all the details, i'd love to hear about 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:47.520 your life before this horrible scenario took place. 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:49.240 You know, I grew up in a house with three 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:51.800 sisters on the north side of Saint Louis, which was 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:54.839 I guess you can say, flooded with drugs, a lot 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:57.200 of violence and stuff like that. Even though I lived 0:08:57.240 --> 0:09:00.560 in the underprivileged neighborhood, I went to school in a 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:05.560 privileged neighborhood. Clayton, Missouri, is considered probably one of the 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:08.800 wealthiest places in Missouri. You know, no matter if I 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:11.000 go out to the clay School district and I'm around 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:14.480 rich people, I still have to deal with my surroundings 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:16.920 when I come home. You're like where do I fit 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:17.880 in in things? 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:20.600 It sounds like you had a foothold in these two 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:23.840 sort of opposite worlds of haves and have nots, which 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:27.000 sounds like you could be pretty confusing. So after you 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:29.360 graduated high school and leading up to March of ninety seven, 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:30.080 what were you up. 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:31.520 To, to be honest with people, You know, I was 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:33.880 hustling at the time. You know, I wasn't a big 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:35.880 drug dealer or anything like that. I was just hustling 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:37.800 at the time. But at the same time, I was 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:41.000 trying to find my way at the time, and that's 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:43.000 why I met the you know, the girl I ended 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:44.600 up with who I was going to move in with, 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:46.840 you know, because basically I was going to get a job, 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:49.719 stop selling drugs and just I guess you could say, 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:52.400 start my growth. Not only for her, but she had 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:53.880 a daughter, so I was trying to be better for 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:54.720 all of them. 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:57.160 So you were at a crossroads, and it sounds like 0:09:57.200 --> 0:09:59.920 you were choosing a more promising path. But your connection 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:02.720 the old neighborhood happened to bring you into contact with 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:06.040 one of the actual bank robbers in this case, Norris Holder. 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:09.959 You had met him through job corps once and then 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:13.560 had a chance encounter with him years later. Apparently you 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:16.400 had sold him some weed once or vice versa, and 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:19.040 it was this chance meeting and short lived hang out 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:21.280 just a few days before Holder committed this crime that 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:25.000 even put you into the realm of possibilities. I mean, 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:27.040 how well did you even know this Holder guy? 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:29.600 Well, I didn't know Holder per se. I guess you 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:31.760 can say the way they tried to, you know, sell 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:34.040 the story to my jury. When I was at a 0:10:34.080 --> 0:10:36.880 club one day older, I knew one of his friends 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:39.720 he was with, you know, just from my neighborhood, and 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:42.120 so you know, we ended up just talking. So he's like, hey, look, 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:44.360 you know, let's look up one day just being cordial 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:46.440 with people. Plus up, Like I said, I knew the 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:49.640 guy he was with. Then a few days you know later, 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:52.040 I get a call from him, you know, basically like 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:53.440 hey man, you know, I'm going to go to the 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:55.360 mall and you know, I got some weed, and I'm like, okay, 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:58.360 well I'm in now. But for them to make it 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:00.599 seem like we were friends, we were food in this 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:03.880 crime or anything like that, how can you say that 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:08.400 I would involve myself in a crime of this magnitude 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:09.840 with somebody I didn't even know. 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:12.520 Right, it doesn't make a whole hell of a lot 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:15.199 of sense until you consider the investigators in this case, 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:18.280 one of whom Joseph Nickerson is on the Saint Louis 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:21.439 DA's do not testify list, which is, by the way, 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:24.000 exactly what it sounds like. He's not allowed to testify 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:27.480 in cases because he lies so much. He's the detective, 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:30.960 by the way, from another egregious wrongful convictioning case out 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:35.280 of Saint Louis, Lamar Johnson. In Lamar's case, Nickerson fabricated 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:38.640 a narrative from alleged witness statements, but these witnesses later 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:41.440 denied saying any of the things Nickerson had attributed to them. 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:46.000 He perjured himself to make Lamar's culpability even plausible. And 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:50.080 then there's a cash incentivized eyewitness who was convinced that 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:53.280 the mass gunman in this case was Lamar Johnson, so 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:55.680 he went along with the ID which you'll see in 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:58.880 it a bit sounds eerily similar to what happened in 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:03.760 this case. Now. I believe his partner, a guy named Carol, 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:07.719 is actually doing time now for assaulting someone who was 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:10.440 in custody. So it's patterns like these that give a 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:13.760 helpful context to what happened in Billy's case. So let's 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:17.520 get to that. The morning of March seventeenth, nineteen ninety seven, 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:21.160 where were you actually that paidful morning? 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:23.840 I had left the house early that morning, like at 0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:26.480 eight o'clock in the morning. They claimed that I had 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:28.600 called holder and told them let's get ready for the 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:30.440 crime and all this stuff from the house. But how 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:32.440 can I call you from the house when I'm already gone, 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:34.880 you know. So I get to the mall early in 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:38.040 the morning, and my first stop is to the hat Zone. 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:40.600 So I went to foot Locker, and I went to 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:43.160 another story foot quarters, and right after that, I went 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:45.520 to Famous and Barb, which is a clothing store. I 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:49.480 went to this tuxedo place. And so as I'm shopping, basically, 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:53.200 I see Chris Hiagog. Now Chris Kigog is a security 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:55.680 guard who was after the mall to pick up his paycheck. 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:57.080 He was like, Hey, I'm just going to pick up 0:12:57.120 --> 0:12:59.439 my check and I plan to go to another mall 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:02.120 to do some and stuff like that. So I'm like, well, 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:04.280 can I ride with you? I was like, look, I 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:06.880 just got to drop a few items off a girl 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:09.280 I was dating, and so he was like okay. So 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:11.320 he went to pick up his check and we left 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:13.840 the mall and I dropped off a few items for 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:16.960 her baby and basically gave her some money because we 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:19.679 were moving in together, and left. 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:22.400 So you've been out of the house since eight am. 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:25.720 At the mall where you visited, several stores made several 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:29.200 points of contact, and there was also surveillance footage. So 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:32.440 all the great alibi evidence that places you away from 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:34.280 the scene at the time of the crime, none of 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:37.240 it was investigated or later presented on your behalf. So 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:41.040 while you were shopping across town, there was this bank 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:43.520 robbery going on at the Lindell Bank and Trust, which 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:45.840 is caddy corner from this huge park in Saint Louis 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:48.760 that houses the Saint Louis Zoo, several museums, landmarks, on 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:51.440 golf course, this skating rink, and this area is known 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:55.360 as Forest Park. Again. This is March seventeenth, nineteen ninety seven, 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:58.600 around ten thirty five am, when two masked and armed 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:01.400 men busted down the door and told everybody to get 0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:01.960 on the ground. 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:05.720 There were two bank robbers who stole fifty thousand dollars, 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:08.920 and a security guard named Richard Heflin was killed in 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:12.240 the process of that robbery. And then the two men 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:16.440 left the scene in a getaway van, drove to Forest Park, 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:20.200 and they had a plan apparently to set the van 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:23.080 on fire and then get away in a different vehicle 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:26.120 that they planted there. But the van had actually been 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:30.760 pre soaked in gasoline and exploded and caught on fire 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:34.840 inside the park before sort of the full extent of 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:38.280 their plan and a getaway plan could work. And so the driver, 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:43.080 a guy named Norris Holder, was still on fire himself 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:46.040 and was pulled out of the car, and then the 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:47.880 second suspect ran away. 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:52.080 So Holder was in custody almost immediately. And I've listened 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:56.280 to the dispatch tapes from that morning. It sounds pretty chaotic, 0:14:56.320 --> 0:14:58.600 but ultimately it sounds like a team of folks trying 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:00.960 to bring the bank robbers and ers of this bank 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:05.360 security guard to justice. And this is so important. Every 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:08.120 one of them described a blackmail about five eight to 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:11.240 five ten, wearing gray sweats and a blue and red 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:15.120 colored jacket, and they said he had singed hair, understandably 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:17.640 since a pan was on fire. And an injured right hand. 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:20.040 They never described the person with a beard, and I 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:21.960 had a beard at the time, So if I was 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:24.480 the person who walked up to you and asked you 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:27.920 for directions, wouldn't that be one of the most descriptive 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:30.160 things you can point out about an individual. 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:33.400 Had it actually been you, they would have mentioned a beard, 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:36.520 right That's a pretty big detail for everybody to leave out, 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:39.720 But they did not say that. They also would have 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:42.920 said over six two instead of around five to nine. 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:47.080 Big difference there. And when you were eventually picked up, 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:49.760 your right hand was not injured and your hair was 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:52.600 not burned in any way. So if you listen to 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:55.120 all of the dispatch tapes as we did, the story 0:15:55.160 --> 0:15:58.680 remains the same. In the immediate aftermath, the assailant came 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:00.840 over a hill from the direction of the burning van. 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:03.720 He went toward the fence line and allegedly told them 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:06.160 that his van caught fire and he needed to get 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:07.080 to the metro link. 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:09.880 Both park workers, you know, when they first came forward, 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:12.360 they claimed that all they did was gave him directions 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:14.680 to the metro link. The thing about it is, when 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:17.680 we get the trial, both park workers change their story. 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:20.720 They claim they gave the person a ride outside of 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:24.640 the park. Do you know I have their actual recordings? Well, 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:28.760 police officer is standing right with them, calling in the 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:30.880 dispatch the. 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:35.560 Forestry division supervisor. They honestry workers all the second subject, 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:38.920 he was running east from the burning van by a 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:42.240 construction trailer. That's about two hundred yards east down. They're 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:44.880 heading right over here by the sense line. There's a 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:45.680 hole in the fence. 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:48.480 Find out one or two. That exactly why we too, 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:51.240 cap with the calling. They don't call you the best, 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:57.640 take our car relt it to the bank. Robbery subjects 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:00.880 with glad playing calling under a fat growth in the 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:05.399 collect way, the black man having on a flatpath, they 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:07.200 had on a multi colored traffic. 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:10.520 The park workers just told them that they gave the 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:12.120 person directions. Right. 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:14.760 These park workers, along with everyone else at this point, 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:17.440 were just feeding in whatever they could to help nab 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:20.840 this guy. No other agenda. They pointed him in the 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:23.879 right direction and he left got away. Whatever threw a 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:28.399 hole in the fence, importantly not in someone's car. Giving 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:31.400 this assailant a ride outside the park would really make 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:33.760 for a much more credible ID, which is why we 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:36.840 believe this story changed by the time of trial, but 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:40.080 back to the immediate aftermath. Ultimately, the effort to close 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:43.080 in on the second assailant was unsuccessful, and they were 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:44.480 hoping to get something out of Holder. 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:47.639 Yeah, when Holder was arrested, he says, the person with 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:50.439 him with some guy named John. Then they threatened him 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:52.800 with the definily and said, hey, look, whoever's the least 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:56.000 culpable is who might get lingency in this case. So 0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:58.760 basically you need to provide us, you know, with a story, 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:00.920 you know, or something that can help us out or 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:03.920 help you out. So all of a sudden, he switches 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:06.040 from John and he mentions my name. 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:08.960 So now he's given them something concrete, a full name, 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:11.560 and not just a name that feels chosen at random. 0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:13.159 That's the thing. He didn't even know my last name. 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:15.080 He just said Bill, just Bill, that's it. 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:17.080 I'll show you where Bill lives. 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:17.600 Now. 0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:22.600 The thing about the John's situation is this. Throughout their reports, 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:25.840 there's a person named JB who was connected to Holder. 0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:28.680 We think JB is his cousin. I can't, you know, 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:31.000 I don't want to falsely accuse anybody or anything like that, 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:32.840 you know, but that's this is what the reports are 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:36.480 basically saying, it's my belief that Holder is using me 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:38.960 as escapego to protect somebody who was close to. 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:43.080 So now you had no idea what was coming your way. 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:46.760 Did you even know that this bank robbery had taken place? 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:49.000 Well, I did see the crime, you know, on the 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:53.040 news when they arrested Holder, and so I'm like, okay, well, 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:54.840 you know I'm not involved in so it doesn't really 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:57.680 draw my attention to it. Next thing I know, I'm 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:00.320 at the apartment, you know, with the all I was 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:02.920 living with at the time, and I hear some banging 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:06.040 on the door, you know, FBI and police officers come 0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:08.080 to my door. They arrest me, and the first thing 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:11.359 I tell them, look, you're arresting the wrong person. I 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:15.080 had the clothes that I had bought on the couch. 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:17.639 The receipts are still in the back, the clothes are 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:19.240 still in the back, and I'm like, look, just go 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:21.480 to the mall and ask to see the surveillance footage 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:24.080 and basically you'll see that I have an alibi at 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:26.440 the time the crime took place. You know, you can't 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:29.480 beat a video, and that they can talk to Krishagov, 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:32.320 who was a security guard at the time to find 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:34.040 out whether or not I was at the mall. 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:37.440 Yeah, but unfortunately they weren't interested in solving the case. 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:40.359 They were interested in fixing the facts to match the 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:43.479 name that they got from Norris Holder. So you were 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:46.120 arrested around two am. What happened next. 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:49.359 When I was in the homicide office, it's two officers 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:53.960 that came and talked to me, Thomas Carroll and Joseph Nickerson, 0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:57.439 and I kept repeating the same story. Now they claim 0:19:57.520 --> 0:20:00.320 they went to the mall, yet for some reason reason, 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:03.560 there's no surveillance footage that can be found. I believe 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:06.840 they have this footage. I reported about this before the 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:09.760 Lamar Johnson case and come to find out years later 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:13.800 they withheld recordings in Lamar Johnson case. So it's like 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:16.560 a pattern down there dealing with these officers. 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:19.399 A pattern that is unfortunately prevalent in Saint Louis, and 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:22.760 let's face it, around this whole country as are alleged 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:25.480 false confessions or fabricated statements, which we'll get into in 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:29.320 a bit. But first, what happened in that interrogation room. 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:32.000 I told them, look, I didn't have anything to do 0:20:32.080 --> 0:20:34.680 with the crime. So They're like, okay, well, if you 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:40.000 didn't commit this crime and give us your DNA, I'm like, sure, shit, 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:41.600 I ain't got none to do what you can have it. 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:43.479 When I was in prison, I used to always ask 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:45.080 guys who would say they're innocent. One of the first 0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:46.480 quers I said, would you be one to do a 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:52.040 DNA test? And almost ninety nine point nine percent of 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:54.480 the people who are really innocent said, I will do 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:58.040 a DNA test. I will do any forensic tests that 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:02.040 I can do to prove my inn And Billy falls 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:05.120 into the category who said I want to do anything 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:06.560 and everything possible. 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:09.800 Next thing they do, they'd sailed to a van you 0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:12.080 know that was used in the crime. Was soaked in gasoline. 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:14.159 You know, so if you don't have any gasoline on 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:16.480 your clothes, you know that can help prove that you 0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:19.280 weren't there. So I willingly gave him my DNA and 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:20.080 my clothes. 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:24.040 I mean the fact that this entire case was covered 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:27.520 in gasoline, so to speak, and Billy has none on him. 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:30.160 They tested the co defendant his clothes were sure enough, 0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:33.040 every bench of them had gasoline residue on them. 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:37.360 Billy had a credible alibi DNA test results came back negative. 0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:40.680 They left open the question whose DNA is it? And 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:44.520 that hasn't been pursued, hasn't been shown, but it's certainly 0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:45.119 not Billy's. 0:21:45.240 --> 0:21:48.200 So take take us back there, Billy to the interrogation 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:49.600 and id process. 0:21:49.960 --> 0:21:52.600 Next thing I know, an FBI agent comes into the room, 0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:55.320 Agent Jan Hartman. You know, she started reading my right. 0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:56.960