1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mob never told you from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm and Today we were talking about firefighting 4 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: women because even though they're around all year, it's peak 5 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: fire season in January, these cold winter months, that's right, 6 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: I mean people running their space theaters and their generators 7 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: and whatnot. It gets dangerous and you want capable people 8 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: to be coming to your aid, that's right. But if 9 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: a fire breaks out, chances are that the people coming 10 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: to your aid are probably going to be guys. Because 11 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:47,840 Speaker 1: only three point four percent of firefighters are women, which 12 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: is far lower than workplace statistics would project for that 13 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 1: type of sector, right, And I mean women actually make 14 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: up a good chunk of like emergency services. I mean 15 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 1: I think or about which is not great, but it's 16 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: definitely higher than three point four percent. And so before 17 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: we get into why there's so few women, let's look 18 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: at some of the women who have been firefighters and 19 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: some of those trailblazers. Well, the very first trailblazer we 20 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: have to talk about is a woman named Molly Williams, 21 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: who is recognized as the first known female firefighter in 22 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: the United States. And she was a slave who belonged 23 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 1: to a merchant named Benjamin Amar, and they lived in 24 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:33,479 Speaker 1: New York City, and Amar was associated with the Oceanus 25 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: Engine Company number eleven, and Molly Williams became known as 26 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: volunteer number eleven because I guess she went with a 27 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: mar when he would be working at this fire department, 28 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: right and during a particularly nasty eighteen eighteen blizzard when 29 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: a lot of men had the flu, Williams joined in 30 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:57,559 Speaker 1: to help and pulled the giant heavy pump through the snow, 31 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: wearing nothing but her calico dress and a checked apron. 32 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: And there are all of these children's books now about 33 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:08,239 Speaker 1: Molly Williams, and it's lauded that, you know, she came 34 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 1: out in this blizzard. She was wearing just a calico 35 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: dress and a checked apron. And when you read about it, 36 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: it's it's usually this in a very chipper tone, of 37 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 1: this woman who was in the blizzard fighting fires. But 38 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: when I was reading this Caroline, the first thought in 39 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 1: my head was, did Molly Williams really want to be 40 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: putting out these fires during a blizzard and nothing but 41 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: a calico dress. I have a feeling she probably did 42 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:35,799 Speaker 1: not write because it seems sort of glossed over that. 43 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:40,519 Speaker 1: Oh wait, no, this woman was actually enslaved by this 44 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 1: merchant who was probably making her do this, because there 45 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: was one quote from her basically saying, listen, I kind 46 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: of have to do whatever this amar guy tells me 47 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: to do, because yeah, slavery hello. Yeah. So not to 48 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: cast a dismal light on the first female firefighter in 49 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,959 Speaker 1: the United States, because it's it's cool that she's the first, 50 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: but at the same time, it's sort of tainted by 51 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: the reasons surrounding why more negative circumstances. But moving on 52 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: from Williams's service, there were plenty of other women who 53 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: volunteered on their own throughout the early twentieth century. Yeah, 54 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: and even way before that. The earliest women firefighters were 55 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: actually volunteers in urban and small town settings, dating back 56 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: to the eighteen hundreds at least, and as we move forward, 57 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: women have worked as fire lookouts since the early nineteen hundreds, 58 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: chiefs of volunteer fire department since at least the nineteen thirties, 59 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: and beginning in the mid nineteen seventies, seasonal firefighters in 60 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: the wild land sector a k a. Forest fires. Yeah, 61 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: and over at PPS we found a pretty comprehensive timeline 62 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: of some of those earlier nineteenth century trailblazers. In addition 63 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: to Molly Williams, for instance, if we leave New York 64 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: City where Molly Williams was and head over to Pittsburgh 65 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: in the eighteen twenties, you have Marina Betts, who was 66 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: a volunteer firefighter who served for about ten years, and 67 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: she was said to have never missed an alarm during 68 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 1: all of her service, and especially liked this tactic of 69 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 1: hers which was pouring buckets of water on male bystanders 70 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 1: at fire scenes. Yeah, guys who weren't helping out, she 71 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: would douse them. Yeah, Yeah, that would probably get me 72 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: on the move, probably a wave away from the end um. 73 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 1: And then we have Adelaide von buck how she volunteered 74 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: during a fire outbreak in eight and eventually was voted 75 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: into the membership of the Atlantic City Fire Department in 76 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: nineteen o four after helping out with a bucket brigade. 77 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: And she is still the only female member of that 78 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: fire department. Yeah, and I think one of the reasons 79 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: too that she was eventually voted into the fire department 80 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 1: is that she married a guy who worked there too. 81 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: But yeah, still nineteen o four, come analytics city, what's happening? Uh? 82 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: Moving on though. In eighteen seventy eight, across the pond, 83 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 1: students at the all female Girton College near Cambridge in 84 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 1: the UK formed a bucket brigade that existed until nineteen 85 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: thirty two. And that might sound like, oh, some the 86 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 1: ladies got together and formed a bucket brigade, no big deal, 87 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 1: But actually there was this problem on the Girton College 88 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: campus where they had no way to put out fires 89 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: at buildings because I think their pump system was broken 90 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: or something like that. So it was almost an engineering 91 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 1: problem that these students got together and solved to figure 92 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: out how to institute some sort of fire safety measures. 93 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: So it was it was a pretty significant thing that 94 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: these that this bucket brigade was. Man, how many fires 95 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: are these people putting out? I wonder just stopped catching 96 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: things on fire? Well, they were probably tons of fires. 97 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: And in the nineteenth century before you have central heating, 98 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: that's right, you're probably right. Smoky the bear was not 99 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: around at that time. Caroline um Well in you have 100 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,679 Speaker 1: Carrie Rockefeller chosen as a regular member of Engine Company 101 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: number one in West Haven, Connecticut quote for her valuable 102 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: services and helping to pull the apparatus, which sounds like, 103 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: but no, she was. She was rewarded for her very 104 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 1: good work. Yeah, and uh. In the nineteen tens, I 105 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 1: kind of like what was going on in Los Angeles 106 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: with the fire departments, because, as we will talk about 107 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: later in the podcast, it's and start contrast to the 108 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: situation with women in firefighting today in l A. But 109 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: at the time there was a lack of available men 110 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: during daytime working hours, and so during the early twentieth century, 111 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 1: the male chief of the fire department in l A 112 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 1: was encouraging women to volunteer. And so you have in 113 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: nineteen twelve, for instance, Captain Marie Stack, who heads up 114 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: an all female brigade in the l A Fire Department. 115 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: And there were other all female brigades that popped up 116 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: in Los Angeles as well, one of which was called 117 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: something like the Society Brigade. And it was literally like 118 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: ladies who lunched, like wealthy women who this was their 119 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: little hobby of just getting together and putting fires out. Yeah, 120 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: like a posh thing to do. And if they would 121 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: take off their white gloves first, Oh, I imagine. You 122 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: know what, though, they probably had paid help who actually 123 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: did the dirty word. Probably right, cynical, we are very yeah, 124 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: it's kind of cynical. I don't know. It didn't stay 125 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: around too long, but for a short while they're in 126 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: Los Angeles, women putting out fires was all the rage. Yeah, 127 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: it was a common thing. Well, then let's look at 128 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: the transition from um, just volunteer service, not to poo 129 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: poo that, but into actual careers and paid service. UM. 130 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: In nine six you have fifty year old Emma ver 131 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: Now who became the first woman officially recognized as a 132 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: firefighter in New Jersey, and then higher up the ranks 133 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: in firefighting in and Crawford. Alan Holst became the first 134 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: female fire chief when she became chief of the Cedar Hill, 135 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: Rhode Island Fire Department. And when we get into World 136 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: War Two, as with a lot of other male dominated fields, 137 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: you have a lot of women entering fire departments, both 138 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: volunteer and like main fire departments in cities to take 139 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: over the work that men left behind. After the war, 140 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: the first women known to have been paid for fire 141 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: suppression services were the wild land firefighting crews working for 142 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 1: the U S for a Service and the Bureau of 143 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 1: Land Management. But when it comes to municipal fire services, 144 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: like the people who you'd call if a fire broke 145 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 1: out at your house, the progress has been even still 146 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: much slower, although you have a lot of movement starting 147 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: to happen in the nineteen sixties and seventies. In fact, 148 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: there were some all women fire companies that sprang up 149 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: in King County, California and Woodbine, Texas in the sixties, 150 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,319 Speaker 1: and by the seventies it was becoming slightly more common 151 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: for women to join the ranks of regular volunteer fire 152 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: departments and working side by side with male peers. This 153 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:20,959 Speaker 1: is when you start to see a lot of first 154 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: and also a lot of women more forcibly pushing their 155 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 1: way into fire departments because they weren't always welcomed with 156 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: open arms. Oh yeah, that's an understatement. Um. In nineteen 157 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: seventy four, you have Judy Brewer who becomes the first 158 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: paid career female firefighter in Arlington County, Virginia, and she 159 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: was quoted by mpr IS saying, when I applied to 160 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: my local fire station to volunteer in Fairfax County, I 161 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: was told essentially to go back to my kitchen. It 162 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: was no place for a woman. And this situation is 163 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 1: hardly unique to Brewer. I mean, this story gets told 164 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 1: over and over again. And then the following year, in 165 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies seven, we have then law student Brenda Burke 166 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: Men who's living in New York City, who notices that 167 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 1: the Fire Department of New York is accepting applicants. And 168 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: at this point f D n Y is under pressure 169 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 1: from the court to diversify. So what the fire department 170 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: was doing was actively trying to recruit black men. But 171 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: Berkman thought, hey, you know what, I think that they 172 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: also need to diversify in terms of gender. So she 173 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: wants to get a group of women to apply to 174 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: be firefighters, and they do. I think it was like 175 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: five women or something applied in this massive recruitment effort 176 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: in the late seventies. But guess what they all failed. Yeah, 177 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: they most of them passed the actual examination, the test, 178 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 1: the written test, but they all failed the physical examination. 179 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: And so in Berkman brings a gender discrimination lawsuit against 180 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: the New York Fire Department under the Civil Rights Act 181 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: after all of those women had women had failed, saying 182 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: that the test had been retooled and based off of 183 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 1: the current male firefighters abilities, and to set off a 184 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:12,839 Speaker 1: huge media firestorm because first of all, people just didn't 185 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: think that women should be allowed to professionally fight fires. 186 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: There didn't seem to be a huge pushback against women 187 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 1: who might want to volunteer, but actually having something a 188 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 1: place like the New York Fire Department, which is one of, 189 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 1: if not the largest municipal fire department in the nation, 190 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: starting to accept women just seemed wrong. I mean when 191 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: when all of those women failed that test in nine 192 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: one of the headlines from that in the Daily News 193 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 1: in New York, which is a paper that's no longer 194 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: in existence, was ms flop fire tests and one sizzles. 195 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: I mean, there were all these puns about, like, you 196 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 1: know how they're they were just waiting essentially for women 197 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: to fail. And so when Berkman decided to bring this lawsuit, 198 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: people weren't happy, and the fire union was not happy either, right, 199 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 1: I mean, Brendan Berkman gave an interview with Makers on 200 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: PBS which is so interesting and so heartbreaking, and some 201 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: of the images that they showed during the interview are 202 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:16,839 Speaker 1: you know, people holding up signs saying I want to 203 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: be saved by a fireman, and a bumper sticker that 204 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 1: says don't send in a girl to do a man's job, 205 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: over and over. I mean that the abuse that Berkman 206 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: describes that she and her fellow female firefighters underwent in 207 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 1: the New York Fire Department is insane. I just I 208 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,199 Speaker 1: can't imagine going through anything like that. Well, and it 209 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 1: wasn't only men who were leaving the charge against this 210 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 1: civil rights lawsuit either, I mean there were plenty of 211 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: women who are saying, no, we want don't don't send 212 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 1: a girl to do a man's work, that kind of thing. 213 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: And one of the quotes from that interview with Makers 214 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,079 Speaker 1: that Berkman gave was, when I first came on the 215 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: job twenty three years ago, fighting fires was the easiest 216 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 1: part of the job for me. Much harder was dealing 217 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: with a hatred and descrip nation that some male firefighters 218 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: had for me. And now many of the initial problems 219 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: f the n Y women firefighters encountered have improved. Um, 220 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: But it took a long time for that lawsuit to 221 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: actually make its way through the court, right, Yeah, And 222 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: she was saying that, um men around her at that time, 223 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 1: were voicing opinions like, okay, feminism has gone too far. 224 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: Second way feminism, you know this is a joke now, 225 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: like you want to be in every single facet of society, 226 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: Like that's ridiculous. You're a woman. There are just some 227 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 1: things you should leave it to men. And Barbay was saying, no, 228 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: I this is what I have dreamed of doing since 229 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: I was a little girl. Her family were all firefighters. 230 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: She wanted to pursue that line of work. Also, yeah, 231 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: because it was interesting hearing her motivation for wanting to 232 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: fight fires, because it wasn't so much about breaking any 233 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 1: kind of glass ceiling, although clearly you know that was 234 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: that was part of the motivation for bringing that lawsuit, 235 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: But for her personally, she thought that it was the 236 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 1: best way to help people in the community because when 237 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 1: you have a problem at home, what do you do? 238 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 1: You end up calling the fire department. A lot of 239 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 1: times those are the people who are going to respond 240 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: to your distress calls. So then in two Judge Charles 241 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:18,319 Speaker 1: Proctor Swift In rules in favor of those women, but 242 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: not after the massive press controversy and demonstrations. People continue 243 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: to demonstrate outside of his court, he received death threats 244 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: and horrible, hateful letters. I mean, the heat was on 245 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: him as well for making this decision. And later that year, 246 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: in November of nineteen eleven, women including Berkman, graduated from 247 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: the firefighting Academy and Berkman went on to serve twenty 248 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: six years and achieved the rank of captain after enduring 249 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: a ton of harassment. And she talks about how after 250 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: she was promoted to lieutenant, she was like, you know, 251 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: a lot of guys think it's hard to suddenly go 252 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: from being a buddy and being in that like fraternity 253 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: to suddenly being the boss and having to tell people 254 00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: what to do and to cut it out and all 255 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 1: that stuff. And she's like, but you know, that really 256 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: wasn't a problem for me because they had never accepted 257 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: me into their group anyway. Yeah, what were some of 258 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: the things that she mentioned as examples of the harassment 259 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: she had to endure. I remember one thing she said 260 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: was going in and having seeing a massive bra stretched 261 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: over her locker. But I mean, all the things she 262 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: listed they ranged from like stupid stuff like having a 263 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: bra with her name on it, to the guys would 264 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: empty the oxygen out of her oxygen tanks. They would 265 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: mess with her equipment, they pete in her boots, they 266 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: turned her locker upside down. She wasn't allowed to eat 267 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: with them. I mean, it's like the worst kind of 268 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: in your face discrimination I've ever heard, which only goes 269 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: to show the determination of hers and these other groundbreaking women. 270 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: There's eleven other women who passed the test to actually 271 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: go out and fight fires, and I think she was 272 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: one of the first responders to during nine eleven as well. Um. 273 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: But the thing is, the situation in the late seventies 274 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: and early eighties in the New York Fire Department is 275 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: not isolated at all. I mean, even today, if we 276 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: look at the national numbers, the firefighting gender gap is 277 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: still massive, in large part because of those issues of 278 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: gender harassment, sexual harassment, and discrimination that are still going on. Um. 279 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: As we mentioned at the top of the podcast. For instance, 280 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, women comprise only 281 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: three point four percent of all firefighters in the US, 282 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: and out of that just point five percent of first 283 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: line supervisors of firefighting and prevention workers. Yeah. And if 284 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: you want to look on the broad scale across the 285 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: country of paid fire departments have never hired a female 286 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: firefighter ever. Wow wow, Wow, that's a majority. So people 287 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: are still wondering today, why are those numbers so persistently low. 288 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, it's not supposed to be 289 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 1: easy to become a firefighter. It's incredibly demanding because you 290 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,679 Speaker 1: have to do things like pull heavy lengths of hose, 291 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: you have to climb stairs while wielding huge power tools 292 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:18,880 Speaker 1: like chainsaws. You have to be able to lift a 293 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: ton of weight, such as an hundred eighty pounds thirty 294 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: five foot wooden ladder. Personally, Caroline, I have zero upper 295 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: body stream. I wouldn't cut it. I would not be 296 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 1: able to pass the physical exam. It's not supposed to 297 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: be easy, but it's also not supposed to be discriminatory either, right, 298 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 1: And when you look at the Los Angeles Fire Department, 299 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: for instance, they have come under a lot of heat 300 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: no pun intended for their hiring practices, and they have 301 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: barely been able to pass any women, with a lot 302 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: of those women alleging discrimination. Yeah, there was a huge 303 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: article about this in the l A Times, kind of 304 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: charting this whole hot mess essentially of their municipal fire department, 305 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,120 Speaker 1: and in one comprehensive article from The l A Times, 306 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 1: the journalist details how there are less than three percent 307 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: of firefighters, fire paramedics, fire administrators, and fire investigators that 308 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 1: are women, but according to an audit by the city's 309 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 1: personnel department in two thousand six, that tiny group accounted 310 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 1: for fifty six percent of the lawsuits against the Los 311 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: Angeles Fire Department between and two thousand five. Right, and 312 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: these women are claiming that there's an unequal playing field, 313 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: you know. They say they just want to be accepted 314 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 1: as firefighters. They don't want to be treated differently, and 315 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,439 Speaker 1: they don't want to be considered cry babies either. But 316 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:49,640 Speaker 1: a lot of people are pointing out, like, hey, you're 317 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:54,160 Speaker 1: hiring practices are putting a dent in the taxpayers wallet. Yeah, 318 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: because the taxpayers are ultimately the ones who are paying 319 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: for all of these costly sexual discriminations suits that are 320 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,400 Speaker 1: being brought because a lot of times it's the plaintiffs 321 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 1: who are winning and so the fire departments having to 322 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 1: settle with them. But ultimately they're not the ones who 323 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: are paying for it. And when they the journalists was 324 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:17,120 Speaker 1: interviewing people within the government and within the fire departments, 325 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 1: trying to figure out whether or not the tests had 326 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 1: been devised to you know, allow women in there, if 327 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 1: they were even passable for women. The answers were so ambiguous. 328 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: Some would say, oh, well, yeah, I mean we've actually 329 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: had to let some women in who wouldn't normally be 330 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: allowed in just for numbers reasons. Other others saying that no, 331 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 1: actually it's devised so that women can't get in. It 332 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: was hard to get to figure out what exactly was 333 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: going on. And you know, one issue in particular when 334 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,640 Speaker 1: you're talking about, um just gender discrimination and not being 335 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: properly equipped to handle women becoming firefighters is the gear. 336 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 1: You know, if you don't have suits that fit right, 337 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: masks that fit right, you can really be injured. And 338 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: so women firefighters in Orange County out in California recently 339 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: did win a lawsuit to provide them with the basics, 340 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: just the protective gear and the uniforms that fit. Yeah. 341 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: I mean, in addition to things like uniforms, even the 342 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: facilities often aren't set up for women to even work there. 343 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: So you've also had lawsuits that have been brought down 344 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 1: simply to institute bathrooms for women being built, because I mean, 345 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: if you think about it, if you're working full time 346 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 1: with the fire department, there are living quarters there, and 347 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: there are bathrooms there, and you are showering there, and 348 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: if you're a woman, you don't wanna you know, it 349 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:48,360 Speaker 1: can't be co ed and be copacetic all the time. Um. 350 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 1: And there was a recent blog post actually by a 351 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: guy named John K. Murphy who was a retired fire chief, 352 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: and he was riding over at the fire engineering site 353 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,200 Speaker 1: and he essentially just gave a paundry list of all 354 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 1: of these discrimination suits that women had brought, alleging things 355 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: like sexual harassment, that the test being set up against them, 356 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: like all of these barriers that women were facing once 357 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,199 Speaker 1: they were inside of fire departments. And he was just 358 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: saying that it's time for it to stop. I mean, 359 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 1: he was horrified as someone who was a fire chief 360 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 1: who had worked in this field for years and years, 361 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,919 Speaker 1: just saying, guys, listen, what what is going on? Stop it? 362 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: Right And people from outside the industry are taking a 363 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 1: look at this too. There's been a lot of academic 364 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: research into the issues of of gender and race in 365 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: uh in fire departments. One study published in the International 366 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,679 Speaker 1: Journal and Diversity documented the good and the bad that 367 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: comes with firefighting, and the good is that, you know, 368 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 1: for a job that does not require you to go 369 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,199 Speaker 1: to college or get a master's degree or anything, the 370 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: potential benefits are great and the hourly wage of nineteen 371 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: dollars and forty two cents isn't too shabby. Unfortunately, as 372 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 1: the study found, when women are hired, the majority of 373 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: them say that they were treated differently, eight percent that 374 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: they were issued ill fitting equipment, reported that their gender 375 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: created barriers to career advancement, half felt shunned or socially isolated, 376 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 1: and thirty seven percent are verbally harassed. And just for comparison, 377 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: and that same study, they found that twelve percent of 378 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: men reported experiencing discrimination. So clearly there there's something going 379 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 1: on there. And one other thing that these Cornell researchers 380 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 1: did in that study was compare the number of women 381 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: in firefighting with other high risks types of jobs like logging, 382 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,400 Speaker 1: being a bus mechanic, being a roofer, being a septic 383 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: tank servicer, and they found that women in those other 384 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: similar sectors comprised around seventeen percent of the employees and 385 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 1: to and that's in such stark contrast to the three 386 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,199 Speaker 1: point four percent of female firefighters. Now there are a 387 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: lot more volunteer firefighters. It's it's estimated that they are 388 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: between thirty five to women in the volunteer fire service 389 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: in the US. But if you want this to be 390 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: your career, even today, it's quite a challenge, and it's 391 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: even a challenge too for women who are in there, 392 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 1: because I don't think that a lot of women want 393 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: it to be I don't think a lot of women 394 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 1: want their gender to be an even bigger issue than 395 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: it already is by virtue of them just standing there 396 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: and looking like a woman, you know. And so there 397 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: were some women in the l A Fire department talking 398 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: about how you know, they don't they don't want to 399 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: say anything because it's already assumed that they're going to 400 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 1: be a cry baby. But this is what they really want, 401 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: right well, you know, like Berkman said that, you know, 402 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 1: she was like, Ei, there were a million times I 403 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: could have quit, you know, the abuse got so bad, 404 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: But she was like, I knew that if they got 405 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: rid of me, it would be open season on the 406 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: rest of the women in the department. They would pick 407 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,679 Speaker 1: them off one by one and have no mercy. Yeah, 408 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: it's tough, I can I mean, I can only imagine 409 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 1: tough on top of what can't be an easy job 410 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:14,919 Speaker 1: to begin with in the day to day, right, And 411 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: so all of this is in line with a study 412 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: that's that's slightly dated, but I think it illustrates while 413 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 1: what we're talking about. There was study in Women's Health 414 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:27,160 Speaker 1: that found that male and female firefighters have similar job stressors, 415 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:32,120 Speaker 1: but female firefighters reported significantly higher scores than mended on 416 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: job skill concerns, and job discrimination reported by female respondence 417 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 1: was significantly higher than for males, even though it was 418 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,959 Speaker 1: not ranked among the five most stressful factors. And there 419 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: were a number of studies that we also found suggesting 420 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: that women of color are at even greater risk of 421 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: gender harassment within fire departments. So it only exacerbates these 422 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: issues that are already at work. It's not easy to 423 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: be a woman in a fire department. It's especially not 424 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 1: s to be a black or Latino woman in a 425 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: fire department because they were almost targeted more for um 426 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:14,640 Speaker 1: hazing that would go on and just being isolated socially isolated. 427 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:16,639 Speaker 1: I mean, I can't imagine like with like you mentioned 428 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 1: with Berkman, she wasn't allowed to eat with her coworkers. 429 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: Now I eat at my desk because I don't have 430 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 1: time to not eat at my desk every day at work. 431 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: But to to be so forcibly ostracized, it's got to 432 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: be really tough. So I mean, props to any women 433 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 1: firefighters who are listening to this, and we we are 434 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 1: specifically talking about firefighters and not talking so much about 435 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: e M S workers because the gender issues in this 436 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: are so stark. I was not expecting this at all. 437 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 1: I thought it would be, you know, kind of a 438 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: plucky tale of women putting out fires and aren't we strong? 439 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 1: And whoa, No, it's like it's horrific. It's not that 440 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: at all. And so I mean, I'm glad, you know 441 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 1: we we we like to try to end things on 442 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: a more hopeful note, and I don't know that we 443 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: can other than to say that it's good that we're 444 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: talking about it. And like Berkman said in her Maker's interview, 445 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:17,880 Speaker 1: you know, you never see women in fire trucks by 446 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: riding along on the truck to the fire, to the emergency, 447 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: and how important that is as it is to see women, 448 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: you know, in the computing fields and the science fields. 449 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 1: It's the same thing. You know, how important it is 450 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: to see a woman on a fire truck, so that 451 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: just a girl, you know, playing outside will think maybe 452 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: I can do that when I'm a grown up. Yeah 453 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: I was. I was reading an interview actually with uh 454 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 1: female firefighter who was a nine eleven responder, and she 455 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: was saying that exact thing of how when she was 456 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: on the fire truck headed to the twin towers, she 457 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 1: remembers looking and seeing people with these astonished looks on 458 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: their faces, just at the sight of seeing a woman, 459 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 1: you know, responding to this fire because even she's like 460 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: it still happens after years of service, which is kind 461 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 1: of incredible. Um, but not even as incredible as what 462 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,399 Speaker 1: these women are are doing all for the passion of 463 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 1: the specific line of work. I mean, clearly, we shouldn't 464 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 1: take our female firefighters for granted, or our male firefighters. 465 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: This is an important job and one that I am 466 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: not physically strong enough to do. No, definitely can't pull 467 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: that hose. No no. Uh So I hope that maybe 468 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 1: there are some firefighters listening, male female, whoever, we want 469 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,640 Speaker 1: to hear from you. Um, it was this as surprising 470 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 1: to you as it was for us. Let us know 471 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: all of your fiery thoughts mom. Stuff at Discovery dot 472 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: com is where you can send your letters, and we 473 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:54,719 Speaker 1: have a couple of letters to share with you when 474 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: we get right back from a quick break and now 475 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: back to our letters. So I've got a couple of 476 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: letters here about the holidays. The first one is from 477 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: a nuke. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. Um, So 478 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 1: she writes your podcast or holidays. Bad relationships made me 479 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 1: think back to Christmas two thousand seven. I was dating 480 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,160 Speaker 1: a German since the end of October of that year, 481 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 1: and I'm Dutch and lived in Amsterdam at the time, 482 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,360 Speaker 1: so we only saw each other every other weekend. Around Christmas. 483 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: There were a few parties in this town that we 484 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 1: were both invited to, and he said I could stay 485 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: with him for the two weeks around Christmas and New Year's. 486 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,199 Speaker 1: So the day finally arrived and he had an official 487 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: dinner from work and invited me to come along, and 488 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: I was also invited to his family for Christmas dinner. 489 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: To me, this meant that things were getting more serious 490 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: and I was very flabbergasid when a friend made a 491 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: joke about relationships, and my quote unquote boyfriend bluntly said 492 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: we are not in a relationship. There were a lot 493 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: of people in the room that all seemed surprised. It 494 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: really hurt my feelings, and I told him that when 495 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: we were alone, he said that he had never said 496 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: we were in a relationship, and I made it clear 497 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: that I found a disrespect and didn't want to be 498 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: treated that way. It took about five more months before 499 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 1: you wanted to make the relationship official. I saw something 500 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: special on him and thus gave it a chance while 501 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: pursuing my own dreams. Fortunately, the story has a happy ending. 502 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: We moved in together in two thousand nine, bought a 503 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: house this year, and I are expecting our second child. 504 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: We were very happy together, but the beginning was difficult, 505 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: and it took me a long time to not feel 506 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: sad about that. Perhaps that we hadn't had that holiday 507 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: period in the beginning, the relationship would have developed more naturally. Well, 508 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: I'm glad there was a happy ending, though. Okay, I 509 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: have a letter here from Laurie about dealing with family 510 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: stress during the holidays, and I all I can say 511 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 1: Laurie is oh girl, Aphelia. Uh. The letter states. Since 512 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: I have a small family and we live in different states, 513 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: I have always done the holidays with my husband's family, 514 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: which is rather large. There are four siblings with their 515 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: husbands and wives and their children and grandchildren. When my 516 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: mother in law was no longer able to host the 517 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: holiday dinners, I took over. A holiday meal at my 518 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 1: house would normally consist of twenty five to thirty five 519 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: people with numerous children. Two of the families consistently showed 520 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: up a half hour to an hour late and then 521 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: would complain if we started eating without them or if 522 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: the food was cold. Also, their children and grandchildren were 523 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 1: out of control. They would climb behind furniture, knock over lamps, 524 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: mark my walls, and if I said anything, I was 525 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: told that they were just kids. They also would leave 526 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 1: their plates on the table and just walk away and 527 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: would not think of helping to wash a dish. I 528 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: have to pause here and say, Lorie again, I feel you, 529 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: and some people don't understand that even though they are 530 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: just kids, they should be able to help out and 531 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: not be jerks and rant. Okay, Continuing on, she says, 532 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 1: since it seemed to be only these two families that 533 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: caused all the commotion. I finally told my husband that 534 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: I refused to do the holiday meals any longer if 535 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 1: I had to deal with this. The following year, my 536 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: husband only invited his sister and her family, as well 537 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: as my mother in law. The holiday meals are much 538 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: calmer now. We also switched from eating on china to 539 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: eating on paper plates to save dishway, sick and cleaning time. 540 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: Instead of just family for holiday meals, we now sometimes 541 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 1: have friends also join us. Well. My holidays are still busy, 542 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: I do enjoy them much more and with much less stress, 543 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 1: less mess and less broken items in my house. So, Lori, 544 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: I'm glad that you are such a wonderful example of 545 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 1: communication slash telling your husband that you're just not dealing 546 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 1: with it anymore. Sometimes you gotta do it, Sometimes you 547 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: gotta draw a line in the sand. So good for you, 548 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: lor and thanks to everybody who's written into his Mom's Stuff. 549 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 1: At Discovery dot com is where you can send your letters. 550 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 1: You can also get in touch with us on Twitter 551 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcast or messages over on Facebook and 552 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: to find all things stuff Mom Never told you are, blogs, 553 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: are videos, are podcasts, all of our social media links. 554 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 1: There are a ton of them. We're on pretty much everything. 555 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: There's one and only place to go now www dot 556 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: stuff Mom Never told You dot com for more on 557 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. 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