WEBVTT - Bomani Jones 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:02.639 I like being on the microphone though, Like I really 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:06.359 there's something that hits me if I'm doing a podcast 0:00:06.440 --> 0:00:08.920 or doing a radio show and I'm talking, like I 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:12.200 like that, And it's not because of the attention as 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:14.600 much as I really just enjoy the act of putting 0:00:14.600 --> 0:00:17.360 those ideas together and figuring out how to present it 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:21.639 largely exceptoraneously. But like, I really I dig doing that part. 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:24.480 TV boy, It's interesting though. It's a drug, Like you 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:27.160 watch how people respond to that drug, and it can 0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:29.840 it can get people, like I've realized pretty quickly off 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:31.880 the TV, like, hey, you kind of gotta dabble in this. 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:34.280 You gotta you know, you need to be like you can't. 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:36.080 You can't just slam this. You'll be messed up for 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:45.400 the rest of your life. A. My name is Boboni Jones, 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:48.560 and I host The Right Time with Boboni Jones, A 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:51.479 Way Sports and Entertainment and listen to Brian forget how 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:52.200 to say my name? 0:00:57.640 --> 0:01:02.160 Hello everybody, and we're back on another beautiful Tuesday with 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:06.640 another beautiful episode. If I do say so myself, of 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:10.600 Off the Beat, I am your host, Brian Baumgartner. Now, 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:15.319 as you heard, my guest today is Bomani Jones. Now 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:18.840 I want it on record that I do know how 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:23.920 to say his name, Bomani, Boumani, Boumani. Now, I'm gonna 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:26.280 be honest with all of you here, as I was 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:32.440 with Baumani shortly after this misstep, exactly twelve minutes after 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:36.680 this recording, I tested positive for COVID. Yes, I suspected 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:40.360 that I might have it, and indeed I did, so, 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:45.120 you know, COVID brain And the whole sentence came out wrong, 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:48.920 and I said Bommi, and he came right for me. 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:51.920 I deserve it, you know what, O'mani. In exchange, I'm 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:54.760 going to give you a privilege that I've never ever 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:59.200 extended to anyone else. You can call me Ryan or Kevin, 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:04.680 your choice. I'm feeling fine now, by the way, just 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:09.680 a little clouded brain, but I so enjoyed this conversation. 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:15.120 Beaumani is one of the smartest, most interesting voices out 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:19.440 there today in sports journalism or really anywhere. He's a 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:23.840 fascinating guy when discussing really any topic. In fact, the 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:27.320 secret to his success is he can connect with people 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:30.800 about a lot of different things. He can make a 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:35.240 thoughtful and deep argument on any topic he just happens 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:39.240 to get paid to do it about sports. He is 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:43.880 or has been, a music and culture writer, a radio host, 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:49.000 a television personality, a podcaster, and an economist, though not 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:52.760 necessarily in that order. Most recently, you can find him 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:57.360 three days a week giving nuanced insight and context to 0:02:57.480 --> 0:02:59.880 the sports world and many other topics on his new 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:04.960 the rebooted podcast The Right Side. He also hosts The 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:08.040 Evening Jones, which has been going strong since the year 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:12.399 two thousand and eleven. It's incredible. If that podcast were 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:15.640 a person, it would be in middle school by now, 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:19.360 and that that's pretty crazy. He is so interesting. His 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:22.600 story is interesting, his family is interesting. Talking to him 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:26.200 was so much fun. So here is a man that 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:30.600 could never have COVID brain even if he tried. 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:37.920 Bow money Jones. Bubble and Squeak. 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:41.600 I love it, Bubble and squeak, A. 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:46.840 Bubble and squeak. I could get every. 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:58.920 Mole lift over from the ninet before. 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:01.280 What's up for money? 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:02.840 Hey man? How are you? 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:04.960 I'm doing all right? How are you. 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:07.120 Doing all right? Good to be on with you. 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:10.760 Well, thank you so much for joining me. I know 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:14.520 it's a very busy day in the world. Of sports, 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:16.040 always something happening. 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:19.360 Can I tell you this, I can't pass up the 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:23.480 rare opportunity to meet a white person from actual Atlanta. 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:25.279 It doesn't happen very often. 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:31.280 Well, first off, thank you, that's very humbling to hear. 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:34.599 Yeah, I heard you were you were born there, But 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:36.239 when did you move to Houston? 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:39.880 So we moved to Houston when I was seven, but 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:42.880 I went to Clark Atlanta for the undergrad and my 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:46.440 parents have been back in Atlanta since ninety seven, so 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:50.599 I kind of got like a dual citizenship going with Atlanta. 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:52.320 I mean, I've spent definitely more time in the last 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:54.400 twenty five years in Houston than I have in Atlanta. 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:57.560 Right, what was the reason for the move to Houston. 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:00.960 Oh, my parents got a differ and gigs, Like they 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:04.440 were professors, so they were working at what was Dan 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:06.719 Clark College at the time, and then we're working at 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:09.240 a school call Prairie View A and M. And then 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:13.120 my dad got the job back at COAU and so 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:15.360 went back there. So, like my brother and sister grew 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:17.760 up in Atlanta, like they were ten years older than me, 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:19.920 so that's all they knew. Really growing up. 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:25.240 Your parents, I understand were Well, you just said they 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:29.720 were teaching in college. They were intellectuals, a political scientist 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:36.279 and an economists and economists. Was education important to you 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:39.440 growing up in your home? Were you having intellectual conversations 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:40.080 over dinner? 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:43.640 Yeah, I would probably say it's fair to say that 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:46.599 they were intellectual conversations over dinner, though I don't think 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:48.760 I realized that's what they were, because they were just 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:51.440 kind of the conversations over dinner. Like the thing about 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:54.479 my parents, I always tell people that, like when you 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:57.279 tell people that your parents are professors, like they imagine 0:05:57.279 --> 0:05:59.440 that you were living like the Huxtables on the Cosme Show, 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:02.560 and they're like jazz intermissions for dinner and stuff like that. 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:07.920 But we're very way more I'd say, I guess regular 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:13.040 than that. So intellectually yes, but always without pretense. Which 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:14.840 is probably the best thing I got out of growing 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:18.240 up with those parents was that you can operate on 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:21.480 an intellectual level, but you can also speak English to people. 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:24.480 What you're doing is sharing knowledge as opposed to showing 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:26.960 it off. Like that's a really important distinction that I've 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:28.040 come to find over time. 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:31.200 Were were your parents sports fans? 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:34.919 Oh? Yeah, my dad more so than my mom, but 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:38.080 my mom also like, yeah, that's a sports is a 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:41.240 defining characteristic of the Jones household. 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:44.839 I would say they were interested in a variety of things. 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:48.400 Yeah, they were interested in a variety of things. And 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:52.159 I also think, like it gets interesting because my father 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:55.360 in particular, my mother like somewhat also, but my father 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:59.640 in particular, shall we say, has some fairly militant class politics, 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:04.960 and so the idea of joining we will call it 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:10.080 the elite, is never something that was particularly alluring us, Right, 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:11.800 So I think that becomes a big part of it. 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:13.960 But I think another thing that's kind of like a 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:17.880 larger and like a kind of macro sociological phenomenon, which 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:21.160 is like an interesting window or glimpse into blackness, is 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:24.960 every now and then you'll catch black people who can 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:27.960 be around enough bourgeois black people that everybody's bourgeois. But 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:30.520 the truth is they just ain't that many of black 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:33.440 people in general, of a bourgeois black people in particular 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:35.840 for you to really court yourself off. And that's the 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:39.360 world you're going to live in. And so as black person, 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:41.080 what you're going to have to do is learn how 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:43.800 to navigate and deal with a bunch of people in 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:46.840 different places. And one thing I was like real fortunate 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:49.920 with my parents, like having them as the exposure in 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:54.640 understanding is people want to be around knowledge, right Like 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:56.440 they want to be around the person who knows things, 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:58.560 no matter what it is. The person who knows things 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:02.080 is generally pretty popular, right, Like that is something that 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:04.160 people want. What they don't want is for you to 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:06.400 talk to them like the stud that's the part that 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:09.120 they don't like. And so when you figure out that 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:14.040 rather than your place as educated person or whatever it is, 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:17.040 is not to show people that you're educated, but your 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:19.760 place is actually to share what it is that you know, 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:21.760 because you recognize that a lot of what you know 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:25.600 it's things that people themselves could easily understand but maybe 0:08:25.720 --> 0:08:27.640 have not been in a position for somebody told them 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:29.920 what it was, you know. So once you can become 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:32.440 the person who can do that, then oh okay, cool. 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:35.520 But that requires you to stay grounded in a certain way, 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:37.920 like I think that generally Southerness we know this a 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:40.520 little better than most people because we have to interact 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:43.040 with more of each other than other people do. Right, 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:44.400 And you learn you've been to learn how to talk 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:45.720 to people about this in a way to make them 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:48.000 feel good about it. Otherwise you gonna feel bad about it. 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:51.680 I think that's very very true. 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:54.720 Look, we all wear masks all the time, depending on 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:57.480 who we're with. Do you feel like you spent your 0:08:57.559 --> 0:09:02.440 childhood wearing masks with different people depending on who it 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:04.120 was and who you were with. 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:08.240 Yeah, that's an interesting question because I've always said that 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:10.880 if I ever got to be self absorbed enough to 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:15.840 write a memoir, right, it would be kind of centered 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:18.440 around the idea that like, I'm not really from here, 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:21.600 no matter where the here happens to be, So like 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:24.200 I grew up in Houston, Like that's the thing I 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:27.760 always say, but like the sensibilities that I have and 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:30.400 like from the house and everything else, probably like more 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:32.960 of an Atlanta sensibility. Like I wasn't in lockstep with 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:35.360 the place that I was in. We lived in like 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:39.240 suburban northwest Houston, but I went to school twenty miles 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:42.040 farther out from that, which was just a completely different 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:45.000 life experience for those people. So I wasn't really in 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:48.040 line with what, you know, with what they were on. 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:53.360 So I figured out somewhat early that I could put 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:55.120 on a mask if I wanted to, but I'd be 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:57.199 putting on a different one every time. Like there was 0:09:57.320 --> 0:09:59.160 like very rarely, if ever it was there a room 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:01.560 that I got in and I was like, oh, yes, 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:04.520 you know, this is the place that I was supposed 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:07.040 to be not so much now. The one thing that 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:10.680 I do, I guess I could definitely say as related 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:13.439 to like the mask idea that was probably true, was 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:16.320 that in this society, like I was just reading this 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:18.880 book not too long ago about Frank Sinatra, and it 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:22.760 made the point that Sinatra started off as somebody who 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:25.600 had more female fans than male fans, and then by 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:28.280 the end had more male fans than female fans. And 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:30.720 the arguments that they were making is that after he 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:32.920 had this fall in the late fifties and then got 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:35.320 back up, that that's what got men to come around. 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:37.880 It's like, the ability to push through the struggle is 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:40.679 the thing that people respect. But when you grow up 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:43.400 in a fairly comfortable upper middle class enviirement, you really 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:46.040 don't have a lot of struggle to report, Like nobody 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:49.160 nobody really thinks it's really cool. Like I always say 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:51.040 with people say you ought to write a book, like oh, yes, 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:53.520 child of privilege did everything he was supposed to do. 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:55.800 That's a page turner, right, anybody trying to hear that. 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:59.760 So I do remember that, I, like I probably is 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:02.880 some way he's made my life harder on myself than others, 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:05.320 because I had, like the luxury of parents that if 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:06.960 I needed a little money, I could call them and 0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:09.520 get it or whatever. The people I grew up around, 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:12.360 of the friends that I had, didn't have that luxury, right, 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:14.480 And so I do remember I got to graduate school 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:17.040 and that was struggling, and I was talking to a 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:18.720 guy I was in school with and he did not 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:20.640 have the luxury that I had on the reach back, 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:23.240 and I just remember him looking at me being like, hey, 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:25.280 cuz you better ask those people for some money. I 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:27.640 wish I had somebody to call and ask for some money, 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:30.440 you know. And so I could probably definitely say if 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:33.080 that was a mask, it was not wanting to be 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:35.640 honest about some of the parts of my life that 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:39.160 were easier not lying in the other direction, right, Like 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:41.000 I wouldn't pretending like I grew up in a neighborhood 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:44.000 that I didn't, but like nobody like going let me 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:46.240 tell you I show had it. Easy. Yeah, people don't 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:48.720 like that. No, no, it's not really the story. 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:52.000 No no that's not No, that doesn't that doesn't help 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:52.319 at all. 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:57.679 You mentioned going back to Atlanta Clark Atlanta University, you 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:03.240 studied economics. Then you got a Masters in Politics, Economics 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:08.480 and Business from Claremont and a Masters of Economics from 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:11.240 UNC Chapel Hill, and you. 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:14.640 Started working on a PhD. There was your what was 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:15.360 your goal? 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:18.959 I mean obviously these were things that your parents studied, 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:22.760 But what was it? I mean, one degree okay, fine, 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:26.520 but you know, three, six, nine degrees later, Like what 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:28.400 were you working towards? 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:31.719 All right, these are interesting steps in the process. So 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:34.280 I'll walk you through this, Okay. So when I got 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:37.240 to college, I was majoring in chemistry. I wanted to 0:12:37.240 --> 0:12:40.120 do pre mid and I wanted to be a pediatrician 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:44.000 find children to be delightful. I was doing the science 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:47.080 majoring thing, and I realized very quickly this wasn't my bag, 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:48.960 Like I just didn't enjoy it, Like all this lab 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:51.160 and these labs and stuff. I just didn't really want 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:53.120 to do it. And so I just kind of bounce 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:56.880 around without a major, and I took an economics class 0:12:56.920 --> 0:12:59.120 in part just to get my mama off my back, 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:01.800 because she just believes that the solution to any problem 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:03.520 that you might have in your life is a class 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:05.800 of two an economics, right, Like, that's just a solution. 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:08.960 So I did the economics class and it was probably 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:11.560 more challenging than any class I had taken to that 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:14.600 point in undergrad and so I was like, cool, I'm 0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:17.319 major in that. And then I decided I didn't want 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:19.839 to major in it anymore. But I had something come 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:21.400 up in my life where if I was going to 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:23.400 change my major, it would take me an extra year 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:25.280 to get out of college, which I was all the 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:27.640 way here for. Just to be clear, I knew that 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:31.120 the real world was not as advertised, right, right, But 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:33.000 a couple of things happened. I was like, no, let 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:34.400 me hurry up and get out of school. So I 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:38.679 got the economics degree. While I'm finishing my senior year, 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:41.640 I started freelance writing, and I realized that the media 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:43.400 space is probably where I wanted to go. I was 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:45.319 just thinking in terms of writing at that point, that's 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:48.239 probably where I wanted to go. And so I graduated 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:50.400 from college. But the right thing wasn't really paying no 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:54.480 money and I remember I had taken a trip to 0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:56.200 DC because I was going to have a meeting with 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:58.240 a guy who said he was starting a magazine and 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:00.400 he was going to feature my work all over and 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:01.760 I was hearing what he was talking about. He wasn't 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:03.480 talking about paying me all the money in the world, 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:06.000 but he was talking about paying me living money. And 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:08.920 I remember I borrowed some money from my parents to 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:10.640 get on the road to go up to DC to 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:13.840 talk to the dude, and he stood me up. I 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:16.160 didn't hear from him. And I remember I had a moment. 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:18.640 I was at my buddy's house, was at his mama's house, 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:20.920 and I'm on the couch and my head's tilted back 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:23.360 because I'm so stressed that my phone rang and I 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:25.160 just picked it up, and it was a woman from 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:28.440 Clairemont Graduate University telling me that they had this fellowship 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:31.280 that was available and if I wanted to apply for it, 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:33.960 and this is August, right, this is August of two 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:36.400 thousand and one. And I was like, well, okay, cool, 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:39.160 I said I'd do it. And then in some subsequent email, 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:41.480 I said to the woman, I'm like, hey, so this 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:44.280 is for January, right, She's like, no, this is for 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:46.440 the fall, like this is in. 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:48.400 A couple of weeks, four days from now. 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:52.800 Yeah, yeah, basically, And honestly, I wound up doing it 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:55.760 for two reasons. One I didn't have anything else to do. 0:14:56.320 --> 0:14:59.760 And two I kind of like convinced myself in my 0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:01.960 mind that what I could do is if I got 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:04.240 this PhD or not have the PhD at that point, 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:06.560 because I really didn't want to do any more economics, 0:15:06.600 --> 0:15:08.520 like I just I really was trying to get away 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:12.000 from that. But I'm like, Okay, you know, the stuff 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:14.400 I'll learned here will probably make me a better writer. 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:16.960 And so I did that, and then after a year, 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:19.600 I did pretty well and I took the gr and 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:22.479 I did really well on that, and I was like, oh, okay, 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:25.640 so maybe if I got the PhD and I put 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:27.320 this along with the other stuff, like I could get 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:30.080 into that public intellectual space that was the rage at 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:33.400 the top. And so I did that, and then I 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:37.720 get to Carolina for the PhD program, and I realized 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:40.200 very quickly that I had a massive degree level of 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:43.120 curiosity in this stuff. I did not want to do 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.280 the things that I was doing, and it's really hard, 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:49.040 like it's a lot of work, like just elbow grease 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:51.560 hours and everything. I don't know. I was in the 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:53.920 wrong place and I'm doing all the writing and everything. 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:57.000 But I got myself set up. I had gotten a 0:15:57.040 --> 0:15:59.600 column writing about music for AOL at the time that 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:01.560 was paid me enough to like live. I bought a 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:03.280 house at a mortgage. I was taking care of it. 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:05.360 I was living a life doing all that. Man, I 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:07.920 fought out of school and a column got camp like 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:11.880 all at the same time. And so it was funny 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:15.000 because my parents really would like I would have liked, 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:16.200 at the very at least one of the kids to 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:18.200 get a PhD. And I was kind of the last hope, 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:21.040 and all paper was probably the best hope. And then 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:24.720 it didn't work out. But yeah, so I wound up 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:28.200 getting each one of those degrees for entirely different reasons, 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:31.080 but they all really proved to be very helpful in 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:31.440 the end. 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:32.200 Yeah. 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:37.800 So you talked there about about writing and developing a 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:41.520 passion for that. Now I know that when you started 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:45.400 you were writing about music and culture primarily. Is that 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:50.240 what was was initially the most interesting for you or 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:51.440 what you wanted to focus on. 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:54.160 Well, I think it was the most, at least in 0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:56.320 my mind, the most available. Like I read a book 0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:59.160 that Chuck d wrote, and he talked about the need 0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:01.800 for strengthening kind of the quality of the music press, 0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:03.680 and that inspired me and made me kind of want 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:06.240 to go in that direction. But I was writing about 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:08.159 what it was that I could write about, you know, 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:10.200 Like I could get an album and write a review 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:11.600 of that, or I could talk about something that had 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:12.960 come up. I could see what was going on in 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:15.480 the world and I could respond to that, like, you know, 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:17.600 those are the things that I could do. Like getting 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:20.600 the sports was completely different for me, at least in 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:24.080 my mind, because I knew enough about sports writing to 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:25.879 know that there was a way that you got in 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:29.200 the door, and I did not have access to that door, 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:31.399 you know, Like I was not a beat writer. I 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:33.320 had not you know, worked at the student paper. I 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:35.160 hadn't done any of those things. Like if you were 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:36.840 to ask me at that time, how do you get 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:39.680 a job sports writing? I wouldn't like what I would 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:41.359 have thought. I probably wouldn't have known. I couldn't have 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:43.760 given you an answer to that. But I got lucky 0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:46.040 that when I was really getting into it in the 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:48.840 mid aughts. Shall we say it's kind of when the 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:51.720 Internet was really booming in terms of writting content, and 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:53.960 the way that people were writing about sports was expanding 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:55.960 beyond just the things you need to have by getting 0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:58.560 in the arena and like, you know, being a beat writer, 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:00.960 and I would have never known how to get that 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:03.120 job or how to go about that, but this other 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:04.640 stuff I knew how to do was so I kind 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:07.119 of went in through the backdoor of doing that. 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:09.359 That's very, very interesting, you know. 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:14.439 I think about this often now that there is I 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:18.320 don't know what you'd even call it traditional press or 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:23.560 traditional sports press. I mean these associated press feeds about 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:24.520 a game. 0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:26.040 That just occurred. 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:31.040 They are the exact same that they were in nineteen 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:35.520 seventy three. Like you know, as you set the scene, 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:38.680 this is where it took place. Here are the stats 0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:43.159 here a few and yeah, like I'm not going to 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:45.600 give Bill Simmons all the credit in the world, but 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:50.600 places like grant Land that start around this time where 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:57.600 you start reading writers who are talking, I mean to 0:18:57.640 --> 0:19:01.000 the point we were just making more pul political or 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:06.840 historical or putting a game or a person in context 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:11.000 to something larger than itself, which is obviously, I'm sure 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:13.320 to you and to me as a consumer as well, 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:14.720 so much more interesting. 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:18.399 Yeah, and I think, you know, to be fair to 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:22.720 the previous generation of writer, the Internet. A big part 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:26.000 of what made the Internet a place where you could 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:30.040 do more of these more expansive things was literally just space, right, 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:32.919 like the idea that space is infinite on the internet, right, 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:35.480 you can scroll up and down forever. That newspaper. We 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:37.960 got this block on this page that we got to fit, 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:41.760 and we need words in these places, and then we're 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:43.359 going to make it happen. But I really feel like 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:45.040 the mid auts because I think it's turning back in 0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:48.240 the other direction now. But that was probably the best 0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:51.679 era of sports writing that we've had. And the reason 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:55.560 that I say that is it was an explosion of 0:19:55.600 --> 0:19:58.080 so many different things. So we had the train died 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:01.280 in the wool journalists, right, who are just incredibly important 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:03.399 to have. But also you had like it was a 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:05.880 lot of these like the lawyers started getting into the game, 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:08.159 the professors started getting into it. You just had a 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:11.680