1 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:10,560 Speaker 1: Tens of thousands of people incarcerated in the US have 2 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: been wrongfully convicted and are being held in captivity for crimes, 3 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 1: even as they adamantly maintain their innocence. What's it like 4 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: to be one of those imprisoned people, and what's it 5 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,799 Speaker 1: like to be their ally, the one outside committed to 6 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: fighting for their freedom. I'm Lauren Bride Pacheco, and this 7 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: is wrongful conviction. Miguel Salario was falsely accused of taking 8 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: part in a drive by shooting when he was nineteen 9 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:46,200 Speaker 1: years old. On the evening of December seventh, nineteen ninety eight, 10 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: eighty one year old Mary Bramlett was driving home in Woodyeer, California, 11 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: when two men drove up in a car and opened fire, 12 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: fatally shooting her for no apparent reason. A group of 13 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: eyewitnesses had interacted with a vehicle matching the gunman's description 14 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: earlier that same night, and they were interviewed by police. 15 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: Miguel's Solario was identified by a couple of these eyewitnesses 16 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: and ultimately sentenced to life in prison without parole, despite 17 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: having an alibi and no physical evidence ever tied him 18 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:24,479 Speaker 1: to the crime. Today, I'm happy to welcome Miguel's solario 19 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 1: to wrongful conviction, and we also have with us Sylvia Celario, 20 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: Miguel's wife, who has been an important part of his 21 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: case from the very beginning. Thank you too so much 22 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: for joining me and for sharing your story with everyone. 23 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: Just to go back and to start from the very beginning, Miguel, 24 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: could you tell me a little bit about your childhood, 25 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: where you grew up and what your family life was like. 26 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 2: I was born in July seventh of nineteen seventy nine. 27 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 2: I was born in Mexico and michal Kan. I have 28 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 2: three older brothers and two older sisters. Mom. Mom came 29 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 2: to the United States because they wanted a better life, 30 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 2: and at that time she wasn't with my father no 31 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 2: more so while I was six months she left me. 32 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 2: My other sisters were taking care of me, so I 33 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 2: was like kind of raced without my mother at that time. 34 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 2: She came to West La Los Angeles, and then about 35 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty two, I ended up going to the United 36 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 2: States for the American dream, you know, and my other 37 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 2: brothers and sisters came along too, and happened to be 38 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 2: raised there in Silver Lake by Eco Park in West 39 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:34,119 Speaker 2: La it was a crampy little house, like a one 40 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 2: bedroom with like probably a little size of of closet. 41 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 2: It was two bunk bits to my top brothers would 42 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 2: be in the bottom. My two brothers will be in 43 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 2: the bottom bunk, and I'll be with my other brother 44 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 2: on the top bunk and my other sister on the floor. 45 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 2: That's how cramped up it was. And I remember one 46 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 2: time waking up like at twelve o'clock at night and 47 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:54,959 Speaker 2: I was so hungry. I was probably like seven or 48 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 2: eight years old. I turned the lights from the kitchen. 49 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,519 Speaker 2: You see all these cockroaches just storming in and everything. 50 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 2: So I said, you know what, I don't want this 51 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 2: kind of property. I want to achieve something and do 52 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 2: good something with my life. Because I was like smart, 53 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 2: quiet kid, you know, I want to don't want to 54 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:13,119 Speaker 2: live this kind of environment. I want to do good. 55 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: You had older brothers when you moved from Mexico. What 56 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 1: was the community like? And we're gangs a big part 57 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: of the community, you know what. 58 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 2: Growing up I was just associating with, like with the 59 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 2: wrong crowd and everything. You know, I was abandoned, neglected, 60 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 2: and they gave me like some kind of like affection 61 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 2: like my parents couldn't give me because me, I like 62 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 2: to party, have fun, drink and have a good time. 63 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 2: And you know, especially when your youth, that's where you 64 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 2: get to meet girls, have good time, work and everything. 65 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 2: You know, that's not a crime to meet people, you know, 66 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 2: So it was. 67 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: More like a social outlet for you. Yes, but it's 68 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: something that was used against you because the police then 69 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:58,119 Speaker 1: had you on their radar because of it. Yes, Now 70 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: you know you mentioned that you were a smart kid, 71 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: and you showed that promise academically too. How did you 72 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: get the nickname clever? 73 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 2: So it happens to be that out of all the 74 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 2: crowd I was hanging around with, I was the only 75 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 2: one that really was going to school, educating myself and 76 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 2: trying to accomplish a dream, my vision I had trying 77 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 2: to do some succeed in life. So that's how the 78 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 2: name came about. 79 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: What were your dreams? What were your ambitions when you 80 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: were a young teenager? 81 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 2: So back in the nineties, I remember in the nineties 82 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 2: of Microsoft, I loved computers for high school, and I said, 83 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 2: you know what, after I graduate, I'm going to work 84 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 2: in an office one day and climb the ladder. I 85 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 2: want to dress on a sue ties dress is shoes 86 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 2: and just claim the latter. That was my vision. So 87 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 2: sure enough, I was the first one of my family 88 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 2: to graduate high school. I was trying to set a 89 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 2: good example class of ninety seven. And right after that 90 00:04:57,800 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 2: I started going to college. You know, I was like, 91 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 2: you know what, I'm on the major in business management. 92 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:06,840 Speaker 1: All right now. At this same time, a lovely young 93 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 1: lady by the name of Sylvia had already entered your life. 94 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about first laying eyes on Sylvia. 95 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 1: How did you guys meet and what did you think? 96 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 2: One time we had like a little kickback and it 97 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:23,919 Speaker 2: was like twenty my friends and a lot of girls. 98 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,840 Speaker 2: And I remember I'm always looking around and I see 99 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 2: this pretty woman sitting on the couch. Plus she had 100 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 2: long hair too at that time, like very long, and 101 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 2: I love long hair. So I approached her, I introduced 102 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 2: myself and we started talking and then she's like, hey, 103 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 2: so what are you do in life? And I'm like, oh, 104 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,159 Speaker 2: I work in a warehouse fifty to fifty five hours 105 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:45,919 Speaker 2: a week and I also go to college. And she 106 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 2: kind of doubted me. So I was like, you want 107 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 2: to see my college ID. 108 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 3: That's why I say, never told a book by a discover. Yeah, 109 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 3: I didn't believe him, but then he pulled out his 110 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 3: college ID, so you know, I saw he had something 111 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 3: going for himself, and you know, we just started talking 112 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 3: and exchanged phone numbers and got to know each other 113 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 3: from there. 114 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 1: What was it about the connection that you guys had 115 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: that made this feel so different for you? Sylvia? 116 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 3: His personality. He's got a great outgoing personality, always happy, smiling, 117 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 3: so during the moments I would be feeling down, he 118 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 3: would just be there to lift me up. So it 119 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 3: was just like that connection that we had. 120 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 1: What what was it about Sylvia? How was she different 121 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 1: from other girls you'd known and you dated. 122 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,679 Speaker 2: I felt so much connection went there because I'm always 123 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 2: kind of like a hermit right there. But with hers, 124 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,840 Speaker 2: She'll come and let's go to Santa Monica Beach, and 125 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 2: I loved that. I was like, you know what, I 126 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 2: like that going to the Griffith Park Observatory looking at 127 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 2: the stars, just me and her bonding doing things together. 128 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 2: So I was like, man, I like this relationship. 129 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: You told me me that your dreams for the future 130 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: up until that point were computers and climbing the corporate ladder. 131 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: Now it sounds like Sylvia became part of that future too. 132 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 2: Yes, and she was also going to college too, working, 133 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 2: so we were always like, you know, trying to accomplish 134 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 2: goals with one another, like she was doing something and 135 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 2: she was doing something. But she ended up getting her 136 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 2: AA degree, so she accomplished her dream. Unfortunately with me, 137 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 2: like I was starting college and just with the blink 138 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 2: of an eye, my life just got stolen. I was like, WHOA, unbelievable. 139 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: So it wasn't nine months later that both of your 140 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: worlds entirely changed after meeting at that party. 141 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 2: Yes, both of our lives just changed, the whole one 142 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 2: pint eighty and all that completely. 143 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: Take me to the night that changed everything for both 144 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: of you. 145 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 2: So that day of December sixth and ninety eight, it 146 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 2: was a Sunday, my day off from work in school. 147 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 2: So remember we were talking and I was like, hey, 148 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 2: what do you want to do today? She's like, watch 149 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 2: a good movie. We'll watch you right there and Wado 150 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 2: really send them was in uptown Waditer, So she decided 151 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 2: to pick that movie cycle. So we end up going 152 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 2: and for some reason, the movie was kind of boring. 153 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 2: I'm not even enjoying it. She's like, well, you know what, 154 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 2: let's leave. So we went out. We're leaving and she 155 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 2: spoke to the manager. His name was John Murray, and 156 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 2: she's like, hey, I would like to get a refund 157 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 2: on this movie. Mister Murray goes, well, I cannot give 158 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 2: you a refund. What we could do is I can 159 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 2: give you two free passes. You could come watch any 160 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 2: movies whenever you guys want. That's bargain. That's cool, all right. 161 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 2: So he gave us two step tickets and we took off. 162 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: And then Sylvia, why don't you pick it up from there? 163 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, so after the movies, we just we drove down 164 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 3: with your boulevard and went to his sister, Sandra's house 165 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 3: and peta Riverta. She had a little gathering there and 166 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 3: that's where we remained the rest of the night. 167 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,959 Speaker 1: So you guys are hanging out there, and then at 168 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 1: some point, Miguel, your brother Pedro leaves to go get beer. 169 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: I think did he ever come back while you guys 170 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:26,719 Speaker 1: were there. 171 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 2: Not that I recall, you know, because we were there 172 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 2: probably like close to midnight, you know, And we end 173 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 2: up leaving like wrong midnight or so, she dropped me 174 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:41,079 Speaker 2: off at my house and waitier and I told her, hey, 175 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 2: when you get home, Paige me so I could know 176 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 2: you got home safe. So she ended up paging me, 177 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:48,559 Speaker 2: and we spoke out into like one thirty word of 178 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 2: both like you hang up, no, you hang up, you know, 179 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 2: one of them kind of things at that time. So 180 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 2: we're like, you know what, let's just hang up. At 181 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 2: the same time, we end up hanging I go, really, 182 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 2: I go. We got both hang up because we both 183 00:09:58,360 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 2: have a busy schedule for tomorrow. 184 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,679 Speaker 1: So it was just an ordinary night for you two. 185 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: But that same evening, an eighty one year old woman 186 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: named Mary Bramlett was shot from another car while she 187 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: was stopped at a red light and later died. Six 188 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: people who were driving in a car nearby and had 189 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: seen the shooter minutes before, were later called as witnesses 190 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 1: by the police, and one of them, Angelica Martinez, thought 191 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 1: that she had heard someone shout your nickname, Clever, and 192 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: that she maybe recognized you based on a photo array 193 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: she was shown by police, but she wasn't positive. And 194 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,199 Speaker 1: then what happened next Miguel So. 195 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 2: On December ninth. Three days later, I believe like around 196 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 2: six or seven in the morning, you know, I was 197 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 2: Bredy getting ready to go to school and go get 198 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 2: my day started. 199 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 3: I remember that day clearly. There was probably about twenty 200 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 3: cop cars surrounding his house. Looking out the window and 201 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 3: I'm like, oh my god, why are these cop cars here? 202 00:10:57,679 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 3: I mean, we had no clue. I had no clue 203 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 3: what was going on. 204 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 2: So they raid my house and I'm like, what's going on? 205 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,559 Speaker 2: Like swarmed in and they handcuffed me, and you're being 206 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 2: on the rest we got to question. You're like, okay, I. 207 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 3: Was even treated as a criminal. They put me in 208 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 3: the cop car. I was only nineteen. You know, it 209 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 3: can be intimidating. I've never been inside of a cop 210 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 3: car before. Once they had searched the whole house, I 211 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 3: remember one of the officers had told me what they 212 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:29,079 Speaker 3: were trying to charge Migual for, and I told him, like, 213 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 3: that's impossible. He was with me the whole time. He 214 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 3: couldn't have done this, you know. And from that Sunday 215 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 3: it was an ordinary day that me and him had 216 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 3: spent together. And three days later, like your whole life 217 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 3: just changes. 218 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 1: And so you guys get to the station and then 219 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: what happens, you. 220 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 2: Know, Like they took me and tied to Picco diveda 221 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 2: shares and they questioned me. They read me my rights 222 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 2: and everything, and they're like, what did you do? December sixth, 223 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety. They're like, oh, well, you want to turning 224 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 2: go no, I'll cooperate. I'll tell you exactly what I'm 225 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 2: what I did, and what same story that I was 226 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 2: with her and everything, just like that I was with 227 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 2: her and I was, you know, my whole day because 228 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 2: my day off from work. They didn't really say too much, 229 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 2: like hey, we're for investigating this and murdering. I'm like, huh, 230 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 2: you know, like I have no knowledge where you guys 231 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 2: tell me and you guys are excusing me of something 232 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,719 Speaker 2: I have no knowledge of. So they helped me for 233 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 2: like seventy two hours, you know. And during those seventy 234 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 2: two hours, the homicide detective mcadary's like, you know, where 235 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 2: me go. I know you had nothing to do with it. 236 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 2: Here's my card. Go do my investigation, go find out 237 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 2: who did it. If not, I'm gonna come after you 238 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 2: whether you did it or not. 239 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: So Detective macldairy said you saw this for me or 240 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 1: I'm charging you with the crime exactly now. Was that 241 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: the first time you had ever met Detective mackldery. 242 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 2: Yes, that was the only time I ever heard of 243 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 2: that name Macldery. 244 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 1: You know, had you ever had any run ins with 245 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: the law before that. 246 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 2: I had a dui before with a CHP officer, but 247 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 2: I never been to in and out of prison. Don't 248 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 2: got no criminal history or nothing like that. So all 249 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,199 Speaker 2: I've been really arrested was like for like a misdemeanor. 250 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: And then two days later they have to release you 251 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: because there's not sufficient evidence to keep you. 252 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 2: They raised in my house, they didn't find nothing, no weapons, 253 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 2: no nothing, they have nothing. They released me on a 254 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 2: Friday night. So after I got released, I told Siviy, 255 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 2: you know what, we have to go back to the theaters, 256 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 2: go retreat the Survelliance tape. So we go show the 257 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 2: credibility of what we're saying is the truth. So we 258 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 2: went back on Sunday and we went and we talked 259 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,079 Speaker 2: to mister John Murray. I told him the situation, I'm 260 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 2: being falsely accused. I need to first, I told you, 261 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 2: I need the Surveillians tape. He goes, you still got 262 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 2: your stuff ticket He goes, Yeah, he goes, I got 263 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 2: some good news and some bad news. The bad news 264 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 2: is that the surveillians tape rewinds every only two hours 265 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 2: and then records over the same take. But if you want, 266 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 2: I remember you guys, he goes, here's my home phone 267 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 2: number and my office if you guys need me to 268 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 2: have your attorney contact me and everything. 269 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: Because you guys both knew that you not only had 270 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: an alibi, you were one another's alibis. Were you sure 271 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: that this would just blow over, Miguel. 272 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 2: You know what, like I never I never knew that 273 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 2: this would actually happen, you know, I was, like you 274 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 2: believe in the justice system and everything. Like I was 275 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 2: just still I'm still shot disappointed. 276 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: Actually, so, Sylvia, you also had interaction with the same detective. 277 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: Can you tell me about being questioned by Detective macaeldairy 278 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: and how you felt about those interactions? 279 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 3: As time passed by mcaelderry and another detective came to 280 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 3: my job in Baldwin Park where I was working at 281 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 3: at the time, and started questioning me. They even threatened 282 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 3: me if I wasn't saying the truth, they were going 283 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 3: to throw me in behind bars. I was looking at 284 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 3: jail time, so, you know, a lot of intimidation trying 285 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 3: to take me to jail because they thought I was 286 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 3: covering up for him. 287 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: Did they ever try to get you to turn on 288 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: the goun. 289 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 3: They tried to get me to turn on him. They 290 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 3: would ask me questions as far as he was ever 291 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 3: mean to me, or you know, he's a dangerous person. 292 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 3: You need to stay away from him, and like none 293 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 3: of that is even true. 294 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: And then it's kind of like you were thrown into 295 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: the court of public opinion even before you even saw 296 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: the inside of a courtroom, because the day you were arrested, 297 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: your photo was plastered on the front page of the 298 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: local paper. 299 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 2: Yes, when I got released afterwards, my whole face was 300 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 2: shown in the newspaper with your daily news on the 301 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 2: media of the news, and I was so humiliated. Pull 302 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 2: yourself from my shoes. Your face is being human aid 303 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 2: telling the world that you come into a crime, that 304 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 2: you killed this individual, and your whole faate muction's right there. 305 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 2: How humiliating could that be? You know, it's like the 306 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 2: worst feeling of person could feel. 307 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: You know, But after your photo had been made public, 308 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: two of the people who had been in that second 309 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: car were again shown your picture in a photo array, 310 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: this time on a group of people who were gathered 311 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: near a van in the Quiet Village Gangs area. You 312 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: were in that group, Miguel, but about fifteen feet away 313 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: from the van. The police claimed that they found a 314 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: three point fifty seven revolver underneath the van, and they 315 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: connected it to the Mary Bramlet shooting and then to 316 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: you through an informant who said it was your gun 317 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: even though it was not. And then a month later 318 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: you were arrested again. 319 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 2: Like I mentioned maclberry, since I was in cooperative man, 320 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 2: I had no knowledge, Soul. I didn't do his dirty job. 321 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 2: He's like, you know what I told Migil, whether he 322 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 2: was gifts or now all going to come after he 323 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 2: kept this word, they found that three fifty seven. I'm 324 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 2: not knowing that's the weaponr what it was. And again 325 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:17,919 Speaker 2: here comes again storming in my house, marsh on fifth, 326 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 2: and they arrest me. I was like again like like, 327 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 2: what's going on here? And this nightmare is turning it 328 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 2: all over again. 329 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: So, Sylvia, how did you find out that he was 330 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:28,919 Speaker 1: arrested for the second time? 331 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 3: My sister in law at the time. She called me 332 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 3: and she said, hey, you know, they arrested Miguel second time. 333 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 3: I'm like what I was like, Oh my goodness, Like 334 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 3: this nightmare it's about to begin, you know. And it 335 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 3: was a horrible feeling. 336 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: Miguel, you're charged with first degree murder for the shooting 337 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: of Bramlett and six counts of assault with a firearm 338 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: for all of the passengers that were also in the 339 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: other vehicle. 340 00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 2: I remember in August of ninety nine, I went to 341 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 2: court and I remember the Diegos honored we're going to 342 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 2: drop the death penalty on Miguel and we're going to 343 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 2: give him life without the possibility of parole. And I 344 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 2: was just shocked, like, oh, these people are trying to 345 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 2: kill me. If they were trying to give me the 346 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 2: death penalty, like are you serious? 347 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 1: And so you knew going into that trial that you 348 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: were up against the system in a horrible way. What 349 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: was that like that period for both of you as 350 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: he's awaiting trial, because you've been taken away from life 351 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 1: as you know it, and you've been taken away from 352 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: each other. Sylvia, how did you try to support Miguel 353 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: during that time? 354 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 3: It was hard because for me about the justice system 355 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 3: took someone that meant so much to me. They took 356 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 3: him away, and that feeling is it was like an 357 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 3: agony feeling, a feeling of agony that of anguish you 358 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 3: just you can't control. So I have to learn how 359 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 3: to accept. Okay, they took him away, and after adapting 360 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:18,120 Speaker 3: accepting what had happened, I learned to cope with it 361 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 3: and be you know, his basically his advocate. 362 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 1: What point did you make that decision? Did you realize 363 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: that you were going to be there for him no 364 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: matter what. 365 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 3: Since day one, since the time of the incident that happened. 366 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 1: Miguel, would you have just assumed that after nine months, 367 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: this young woman with a bright future and ambitions would 368 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 1: stick to you and stick by you the way she has. 369 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,360 Speaker 2: I remember that as I mentioned about the that penalty, 370 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 2: I give her a car and I explained to her 371 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 2: what happened. And she's a Miguel, You're completely innocent. I 372 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 2: know for fact, I was with you that night. We're 373 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 2: gonna fight, and from that moment on we were determined to, 374 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 2: you know, do whatever it takes to fight and get justice. 375 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 2: Be your voice, be heard, to find no matter. 376 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: What right, and then Miguel. The trial began in February 377 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: of two thousand. Two of the witnesses from the second 378 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: car were called to testify. Martin Leva identified Miguel, but 379 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: Angelica Martinez admitted on the stand that she wasn't sure 380 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,360 Speaker 1: it was you. She said, it kind of looked like you. 381 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: And that's interesting because, as it would turn out, it 382 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: was your brother Pedro, who was in the car that night, 383 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: in a car that was registered to your father. 384 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 2: So the interesting part about Angelica, right on the first 385 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 2: sixpect they showed to the witnesses, did not select me. 386 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 2: They selected somewhere else. 387 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: And so in six pack, you mean the photos of 388 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 1: suspects that they show the witnesses a. 389 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 2: Lineup, you have like a six different individuals. On the 390 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 2: first one, I didn't even get picked out. The second time, 391 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 2: Angelica selects my picture right after I came out in 392 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 2: the media, and everything contaminates the mind of a witness, and. 393 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: They actually the defense brought your brother Pedro into the 394 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: courtroom and on the stand, Angelica couldn't identify you as 395 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:32,120 Speaker 1: the driver. Exactly what was it like sitting in that 396 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: courtroom and having that unfold because it becomes increasingly obvious 397 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: that it's not just a case of mistaken identity. You've 398 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 1: been mistaken for your brother. 399 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, just like the whole situation, like being involved, being 400 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 2: in the newspaper, and just being costly excused by these 401 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 2: two people. It's just like so David's so hard, sad, 402 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 2: It's just like wow, like mind blowing. That's how I 403 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 2: was feeling at that moment. 404 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: And as the Guel's alibi witness, Sylvia, you were called 405 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: to testify, but you weren't allowed to watch the trial. 406 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: What was that like for you? 407 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 3: When the trial started meeping his alibi, I thought, Okay, 408 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 3: this is going to be easy. You know everything that 409 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,880 Speaker 3: I had told mackelderry. I thought it was just all 410 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 3: going to come forward. But obviously they withheld they withheld, 411 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 3: you know, evidence that could have helped Miguel. So I 412 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 3: thought everything was told, but obviously he turned everything around 413 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 3: to his advantage. 414 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,880 Speaker 1: Well, you didn't bank on the fact that, even though 415 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 1: you were his alibi, that a detective would end up 416 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: going on the stand, misrepresenting the two interviews you had 417 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 1: with him and lying on the stand, which ultimately discredited 418 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:58,880 Speaker 1: you and weakened your strength as his alibi, right. 419 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 2: You think that the officer would literally speak the truth, 420 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 2: you know, but under old he falsified information. You know, 421 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 2: she had got interviewed by him at her job, you know, 422 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 2: and Detective macadery did not produce that tape, and that's 423 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 2: how he discredit her credibility, making her say that she 424 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 2: was just covering up for me. 425 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: And then the guy who linked you to that revolver 426 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: in the first place ended up admitting that he just 427 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 1: signed whatever the detectives gave him because he didn't want 428 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: to get in trouble. 429 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 2: Yes, he said he stated that he was threatened by 430 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 2: mcadairy and he was so scared that he said that 431 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,120 Speaker 2: he heard about mcadery, what the things he could do, 432 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 2: just put put people in prison for something that he knew, 433 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 2: and he was scared and that's why he stated. 434 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: That, Okay, so this is this is the the clencher 435 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:57,679 Speaker 1: for me. So then the defense also were able to 436 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 1: call McElderry to this stand and he admitted that one 437 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: he had not investigated Pedro as an alternate suspect, and 438 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: that he had not investigated your alibi. So that's how 439 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:24,360 Speaker 1: you're leading into the jury, going into deliberation for three days. 440 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: I think that having heard the state's case against you 441 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 1: and the defense that your attorney mounted, that you must 442 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: have felt, of course, the jury is going to decide 443 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: in your favor. 444 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 2: I was feeling conflict, feeling like optimistic, you always got 445 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,400 Speaker 2: to hope for the best no matter what situation you're in. 446 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 2: And after the third day of deliberation, if they have 447 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 2: reached a verdict, and I'm standing right there again, I 448 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 2: remember we the jury find Miguel so lawyer guilty of 449 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 2: first degree murder, and I remember looking at the DA 450 00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 2: and she looked at me and she just winked at me, 451 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 2: like I got you. In my mind's like, man, you're 452 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 2: making a mistake. You got the wrong individual, you know. 453 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 2: And that's when my life changed, right. 454 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 1: I can't I can't imagine the way that must have 455 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 1: felt on so many levels, because you are now being 456 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: sentenced to life for something you had nothing to do with, 457 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,880 Speaker 1: but your brother may have very well been a part 458 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: of and he didn't defend you. Miguel, did you just 459 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: feel betrayed by the system, by your family, by your brother. 460 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 2: I was just like lost in translation that how could 461 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 2: this actually happened to me? Like wow, like you feel 462 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 2: your heart just shattered, crushed. 463 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 3: I was at home at the time. I remember getting 464 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 3: that phone call I believe was one of his family members. 465 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,680 Speaker 3: They had told me they found him guilty, and that's 466 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:14,479 Speaker 3: when I just I just broke down, broke down crying. 467 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 3: I'm like, no, how could this be. Once the verdict 468 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 3: came back as guilty, that's when you know your whole 469 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:22,360 Speaker 3: life just changes. 470 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: Do you remember that first time that you saw him 471 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 1: after he was convicted, Sylvia. 472 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 3: I do. It was at the county jail, not a 473 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 3: good place. It was very emotional, you know, seen him 474 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:41,199 Speaker 3: behind glass, not being able to hug him. You know, 475 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 3: it was an emotional time for me. 476 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 1: How would you describe to somebody who hasn't experienced but 477 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 1: that feeling of helplessness when someone you love has been 478 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,160 Speaker 1: convicted of a crime they didn't come. 479 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 3: Out agony, feelings of agony, fatness. You feel helpless with 480 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 3: the situation someone you know being ripped out of your 481 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 3: life from the justice system that you trust. They failed us. 482 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 3: It was hard for me to accept what had happened 483 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 3: to Miguel and to me. 484 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,199 Speaker 2: As well, like knowing the fact that when you have 485 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 2: a life without sentence. You're never going to see your mom, 486 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 2: You're never gonna see day, like you're not gonna see 487 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 2: your dad, and you're never gonna see your brother's, sister's 488 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 2: nieces anybody. I was like, you know what, I do 489 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 2: not want to die in prison. I want to fight 490 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 2: no matter what, because life of doubt, your break is 491 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 2: basically dying in prison no matter what. 492 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 1: You're listening to Wrongful Conviction with Lauren Bright Pacheco. You 493 00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: can listen to this and All the Love of for 494 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: Good podcasts one week early and ad free by subscribing 495 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 1: to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. You guys 496 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 1: make the decision three years after his conviction to get married. 497 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 3: Well before the three years, he had asked me to 498 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:27,199 Speaker 3: marry him. It was at the county jail and I 499 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 3: said yes, and Niguel, you want to take it from there? 500 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,159 Speaker 2: Yes, And it was September twenty fifth of two thousand 501 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 2: and four when we got married. So I liked that 502 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 2: song by Earthwind and Fire or September, so it reminds 503 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 2: me of that moment, you know, And it was magical. 504 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 2: It was something something new. 505 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 3: Because I mean it wasn't your traditional marriage, you know, 506 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 3: ceremony wasn't your traditional ceremony. But when you love someone, 507 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 3: you just you go for it. You know that's the 508 00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 3: person you want to be with. 509 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 2: Well, I went to visit, and I remember I wrote 510 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 2: my little vowels she as a matter of fact, the 511 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 2: same paper I wrote my vow she carries it with 512 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 2: her in her wallet everywhere she goes. 513 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: If you'll share, what's one special part of them, what 514 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: really sticks out to you as so very special? 515 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 3: The part where he says from the moment I laid 516 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 3: eyes on you, that's the part that sticks out so 517 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 3: this very day. 518 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: And that party when you were sitting on the couch, 519 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: she knew he was looking at his future. 520 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 3: Wife, and I didn't even know. 521 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 1: You guys are still in your early twenties when you 522 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: make the decision to get married. What did your friends 523 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 1: and family think, Sylvia? Did they ever ever think that 524 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 1: you were potentially throwing your life away? 525 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 3: I did have family members that try to stop me 526 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 3: from getting married. However, I didn't let that stop me 527 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 3: from making my decision. I fell in love with Miguel 528 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 3: and ended up getting married to him despite people trying 529 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 3: to convince me otherwise. 530 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: So that's a beautiful bright spot in this really dark story. 531 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: Because the story doesn't end with that happy moment, it 532 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: goes on for nearly another two decades. What were the 533 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 1: darkest times for both of you? And that was there 534 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,959 Speaker 1: any point where you thought this is too much taking 535 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: on the entire system. 536 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 3: A couple of the darkest times for me personally was 537 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 3: the lockdowns when I couldn't see him from months, because 538 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 3: prison sometimes things happen Riot's breakout. Mind you, I've never 539 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 3: stepped to a prison in my life until I started 540 00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 3: visiting Miguel, So being in that environment, seen the surroundings, 541 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,239 Speaker 3: and having to deal with lockdowns, not being able to 542 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 3: see him, that that was very hard. 543 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 1: Miguel. That was your day in, day out, twenty four 544 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:17,239 Speaker 1: to seven for days, weeks, months, years. When did it 545 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 1: get too much for you? 546 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 2: You know? You guess that when your loved ones one 547 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 2: three because visits are from like eight thirty to three o'clock, 548 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 2: So you see your loved one leaving, you wish you 549 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 2: could just hold their hands, just go leave with them, 550 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 2: like take me with you, you know. But then like 551 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 2: two thousand and nine, fifteen, I believe you know, we 552 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 2: wrote the Innocence Project again, and they finally say, we 553 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 2: can't help you, So we hit another dead end. That time, 554 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 2: depression did hit me pretty bad and I got real sick, 555 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 2: like to the point where I almost died in there. 556 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 2: I used to weigh one hundred and eighty six pounds, 557 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 2: and I got so depressed, hit me so bad that 558 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 2: I wasn't eating, I wasn't being responsive, and I dropped 559 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 2: so much weigh within like three to four weeks, I 560 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 2: was just on my bed. It's just you know, sick, 561 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 2: and I ended up going all the way to one 562 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 2: hundred and nineteen pounds. 563 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 3: At that point, he was going to die on me 564 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 3: if something wasn't you know, going to happen. So we 565 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 3: had to do an emergency conservatorship. And I remember at 566 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 3: that time questioning myself, Am I making the right decisions 567 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 3: and just praying, praying about it and just having that faith, 568 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 3: that hope that everything will come together, making the decision Okay, 569 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 3: he needs a fitting tube, let's go for it. 570 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 1: And what was that like emotionally when he was giving 571 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 1: up all hope physically and mentally for you, Sylvia. 572 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 3: Trying to support him, trying to lift up his spirits, 573 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 3: you know, tell him, don't worry. We got this, we 574 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 3: can't give up. 575 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 1: You underwent electric shock therapy. 576 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 2: Yes, I went to ect electric convulsive treatment like four 577 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 2: to five times, right, And I mustn'tdmit. That's like the 578 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 2: worst pain a human being could actually, it's almost like 579 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 2: picture this. You know, if you put your two hands 580 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 2: in the socket of the electricity socket and you hold 581 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 2: on to it, you just hear fee electricity. Well, that's 582 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 2: exactly what I was feeling. And I remember they used 583 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 2: to tie me down. I even got burnmarks right here 584 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 2: in the back of my thing and on my legs. 585 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 2: The last one I was going to shock therapy in 586 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,479 Speaker 2: the hospital. I was just like as soon as they 587 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 2: turned on the electricity for five minutes, I was yelling 588 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 2: on top of my like, turn this off. It's the worst, 589 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:51,719 Speaker 2: you know, in the agony, you know, just it's like 590 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 2: when you get shocked, you want to let go, but 591 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 2: imagine not able to let go with electricity. And they 592 00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 2: were so painful that the only side of that it 593 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 2: did give me was that it wiped out my memory 594 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 2: from like two thousand ten to two thousand and sixteen, 595 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 2: and wiped my memory. It wiped out my whole like 596 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 2: a couple of years out of my mind, Like I 597 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 2: don't remember being in this prison, you know. But the 598 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 2: only part that I'm grateful that I know who Sylvia is, 599 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 2: who my mom is, who my sisters are, and who 600 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 2: my siblings. But I told you know what, I'm grateful 601 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 2: for that I didn't forget the moment I married you, 602 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:30,360 Speaker 2: and I'm grateful for that. 603 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,280 Speaker 1: While all of this is going on, Sylvia, you've also 604 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,239 Speaker 1: decided that part of how you're gonna fight it is 605 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:44,399 Speaker 1: basically by becoming a private investigator. Right. You end up 606 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 1: knowing that there are some important pieces to this puzzle, 607 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: and many of them hinged with Miguel's brother Pedro, who 608 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: has been writing you letters since two thousand and seven. 609 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 3: Well, during that time in a federal prison, him writing me, 610 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,240 Speaker 3: it was just casual pretty much, you know, just touching base. 611 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 3: But I remember one of them being I wanted to 612 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,840 Speaker 3: get an investigator, you know, to investigate mcgl's case. He 613 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 3: had told me I was wasting my time, wasting my 614 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 3: money if I did. He wanted to see me in 615 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:25,760 Speaker 3: person and tell me what really went down that night. Well, 616 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 3: only a person who knows what went down that night 617 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 3: would know. So at that time I saved. I saved 618 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 3: all the letters, any emails, anything that would help mcgil's case, 619 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,879 Speaker 3: I saved. And then I just I went from there 620 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 3: just trying to put the puzzle together, all the pieces together, 621 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:48,359 Speaker 3: doing my own investigation. 622 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 1: And so you were able to get a statement from 623 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: a woman who was involved with Patro at that time 624 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: or saw him with a that night. 625 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 3: Yes, so I hired a private investigator and she took 626 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:11,839 Speaker 3: the declaration of another person who gave more details in 627 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 3: regard to that. 628 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: Okay, And basically that connected Pedro to a weapon the 629 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: night of the incident. And how did someone named Jose 630 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: Perez come into the picture. 631 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:29,359 Speaker 3: That night of the incident when that happened that night, 632 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 3: I remember meeting a person named Jose. The only thing 633 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 3: I remember about him was he had big ears and 634 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 3: he had a white T shirt. That's all I remember. 635 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:44,439 Speaker 1: That's interesting because one of the witnesses had mentioned that 636 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 1: the person had big ears, and so Jose was very 637 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,839 Speaker 1: likely the guy that Pedro left the gathering with that night. 638 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 1: So you had all these pieces of the puzzle in 639 00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: your hands, and then you were able to connect with 640 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: an atturn Ernie, who's another hero in the story. Ellen Eggers. 641 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 1: She agreed to take your case pro bono and also 642 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 1: brought it to the Northern California Innocence Project. Correct Ellen. 643 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 2: I remember her telling me, Miguel, you know what, I 644 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 2: got good news to you to tell you I've been retired. 645 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:20,320 Speaker 2: I want to take two cases, and I'm going to 646 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 2: take yours. And I was like, thank you. You know, 647 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 2: she's just like, she's the kind of attorney I always 648 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,919 Speaker 2: believe that she was the one immediately. She's the type 649 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,279 Speaker 2: of attorney. She's like a pit bull. She's no little 650 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 2: chiwawa turn, She's a pip like, go get her, go 651 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 2: get things done. And that's the kind of we needed 652 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,880 Speaker 2: an attorney, and that's the good ultimate attorneys you need. 653 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 3: So once Ellen took his case, you know, it took 654 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,880 Speaker 3: so many years, but all the pieces were starting to 655 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 3: come together and like, okay, maybe this is it, this 656 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 3: is the turning point of the life changing. 657 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,840 Speaker 1: And it happened fast. I mean after yeah, you know, 658 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:04,320 Speaker 1: almost twenty five years, so over two decades of justice 659 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:08,320 Speaker 1: moving like a frozen slug on this case and everything 660 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 1: you guys were doing, falling on death fears. It happened 661 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 1: in almost lightning speed. Your conviction was vacated and all 662 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,840 Speaker 1: charges against you were dropped. In November of twenty twenty three, 663 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,400 Speaker 1: you were declared factually in a cent a month later. 664 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 1: Take me to the moment that he walked out of 665 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 1: prison a free man. 666 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:35,279 Speaker 3: Sylvia, Oh my goodness, where do I begin. This was 667 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 3: tears of joy, of happiness when he walked out. I'm like, 668 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 3: oh my goodness, Like, this is what I've been fighting 669 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,720 Speaker 3: for all these years, not just having my husband out, 670 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:51,359 Speaker 3: but having an innocent man finally free after so many 671 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 3: years brought me the biggest joy in my life. 672 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 2: Miguel, I remember the moment they finally said like actually 673 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 2: insud like man, it was just it's like a dream. 674 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:04,360 Speaker 2: You know when you have a good dream. It's a 675 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 2: beautiful and you wake up. You're like, oh, lets see 676 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 2: if I could go back to sleep and dream the 677 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 2: same dream. Well, it's a dream. That's reality finally, Like, 678 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,880 Speaker 2: it's real reality of innocence. I'm happy. 679 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 1: So you know, you mentioned how incredible Ellen was as 680 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,360 Speaker 1: the attorney who made all the difference in this case, 681 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,359 Speaker 1: but she said, had it not been for his main 682 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 1: alibi witness, Sylvia, who knew he was innocent, stood by 683 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:35,839 Speaker 1: him and married him after his conviction, he might never 684 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:41,440 Speaker 1: have seen this day. What words do you use to 685 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,880 Speaker 1: describe the gratitude you have for your wife. 686 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 2: I value everything she has been for me. She's been 687 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 2: my voice. She's been there every step of the way. 688 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,880 Speaker 2: They say this is my favorite quote, and this is 689 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,239 Speaker 2: like a true friend walks in when the rest of 690 00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,640 Speaker 2: the world walks out. Well, you know, that's and a blessing. 691 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:04,880 Speaker 2: She's been my advokay, you know. And we fought together, 692 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 2: and she was always believed in us, and we came 693 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:09,279 Speaker 2: to this point. I just want to say thank you, 694 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 2: saving for always helping me fight for justice, for always 695 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,200 Speaker 2: being there no matter what situation I faced, You always 696 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 2: there for me. 697 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:21,800 Speaker 3: Thank you, Miguel. Did you ever think that we would 698 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 3: last this long? Despite this long journey and the ups 699 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,879 Speaker 3: and downs? Did you think we would ever last this long? 700 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:31,440 Speaker 3: Twenty five years later. 701 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:35,359 Speaker 2: As soon as I started after I got convicted, I 702 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,160 Speaker 2: had a vision in my mind, like you know what, 703 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,239 Speaker 2: the love we have for one another, the connection that 704 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:42,879 Speaker 2: felt for you, what I felt in my heart, it's 705 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,960 Speaker 2: going to be possible. Then possible is impossible. And that's 706 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 2: how I see my vision that that to this day. 707 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, because sometimes you think, Okay, is this situation going 708 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,759 Speaker 3: to break you? Or is it going to make you stronger? 709 00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:01,080 Speaker 3: And reflecting back at everything is it's only made us 710 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:06,320 Speaker 3: a lot stronger. Having that hope, that faith, that perseverance. 711 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:11,640 Speaker 3: You don't become bitter, You just you become more wise 712 00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:14,400 Speaker 3: and more humble with the situation. 713 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 2: Right. We value each other, We don't take each other 714 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:19,600 Speaker 2: for granted, and we just keep pushing no matter what, 715 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,239 Speaker 2: and we stay had and half marching forward no matter 716 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:24,560 Speaker 2: what situation we fase. 717 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,280 Speaker 1: Wow, you guys very much meant those vows you took 718 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:45,240 Speaker 1: while you were in prison. Yes, thank you for listening 719 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:49,080 Speaker 1: to Wrongful Conviction. I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco. Please support your 720 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 1: local innocence organizations and go to the links in the 721 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,960 Speaker 1: episode description to see how you can help. I'd like 722 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,719 Speaker 1: to thank our executive producers Jason Flam, Jeff Kempler, and 723 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 1: Kevin Wardis, as well as our producers Annie Chelsea, Kathleen Fink, 724 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,720 Speaker 1: and Jackie Pauley. This series is produced, edited, and hosted 725 00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:11,799 Speaker 1: by me Lauren Bright Pacheco. Our senior producer is Kara Kornhaber. 726 00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:16,800 Speaker 1: Story editing by Hannah bial research by Shelby Sorels, mixing 727 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,440 Speaker 1: and sound design by Nick Massetti, with additional production by 728 00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:24,360 Speaker 1: Jeff Clyborne. Our theme music is by Jay Ralph. Be 729 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,680 Speaker 1: sure to follow us across all social media platforms at 730 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 1: Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction. You can also 731 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,960 Speaker 1: follow me on all platforms at Lauren Bright Pacheco. Wrongful 732 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,640 Speaker 1: Conviction is a production of Lava for Good podcasts in 733 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,439 Speaker 1: association with Signal Company Number one