WEBVTT - What is a Moral Budget? 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:15.440 Greetings and welcome to woke AF with me Danielle Moody. 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:18.120 This week, as all eyes are on the trial proceedings 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:21.560 in Minneapolis for the former police officer who killed George Floyd, 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:25.079 I wanted to explore calls for abolition and defunding and 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:28.360 what these terms actually mean in practice. I had deep 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:31.960 half hour conversations with New York City mayoral candidate Maya 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:36.680 Wiley and Represent Justices executive director Daniel Furkio about how 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:40.760 we can transform policing and rehabilitative justice to work for 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:44.200 all people. As always, you can hear those full conversations 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:47.159 right now on my Patreon for just five dollars at 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:50.240 patreon dot com slash woke AF. But if you've ever 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:53.440 had questions about how activists are processing the loud calls 0:00:53.640 --> 0:00:57.280 to abolish prisons, take a listen to Daniel Fokio explaining 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:00.200 what represent Justice is doing to adjust the fat that 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:04.440 the prison system is directly descended from the institution of slavery. 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:09.559 You know, one of the things that I often say, 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:12.559 and you hear people saying, is that our criminal justice 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:15.559 system is broken. Right, our criminal justice system is broken 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:18.040 and it needs to be fixed. And what I have 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:20.679 started to say is that the criminal justice system isn't broken. 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:23.720 It's actually working exactly the way it was intended to work. 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:28.080 Right that you, following the abolition of slavery, that we 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:32.399 have as a society created various mechanisms to in prison 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:37.559 right and essentially put back into slavery black and brown people. 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:40.920 We use the criminal justice system as a way for 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:43.560 us to say that this particular group of people needs 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:47.040 to be over surveillance, needs to be over policed, right, 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:51.760 and so we are going to put law enforcement embedded 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:54.920 in these communities, right. And what we know to be 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:57.040 true is that the more police that you have, the 0:01:57.080 --> 0:01:59.880 more likely you are to be picked up foreign fraction. 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:04.280 And then this cyclical way of being happened. So when 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:06.840 we look at this and we have these communities, we 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:09.280 have the white community saying, well, you know, of course 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:12.200 they commit all of the crimes right like the you know, 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:15.239 we see they're in prison for a reason, and so 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:17.920 we treat them like animals because they are animals, and 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:22.280 it's a reinforcing this sense of being and then justifies 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:27.560 white violence. So talk to me about how this is 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:31.720 such a grave lie. When we talk about the big 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:33.760 lie right now, we talk about the big lie in 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:36.680 politics in terms of lying about who won the twenty 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:40.000 twenty election, but I think the biggest lie in all 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:43.440 honesty is how we have continued on with the system 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:48.480 that we know is purposefully made based on racism and injustice. 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:51.799 And so how do you unpack that lie? What does 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:56.440 it look like to have these real, deep conversations and 0:02:56.639 --> 0:03:00.960 stories about why our justice some misset up in the 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:03.840 way that it is. That is such a great and 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:08.240 observation and question, Danielle. I think one thing I would 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:11.040 say for people that don't know is that between nineteen 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:14.280 ninety and two thousand and five, if you can imagine this, 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:18.480 a prison was built once every ten days in the US. 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:22.919 Those prisons were filled, particularly even in states like California, 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:26.560 like where people believe that we're very progressive right on 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:30.519 with black and brown individuals, including the youth. The super 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:33.480 Predator narrative which popped up at the same time, feel 0:03:33.960 --> 0:03:38.080 that type of investment, state level of incarceration. And so 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:41.640 when you look at and it feels, ultimately Danielle, a 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:46.119 narrative of good versus evil instead of opportunity versus oppression, 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:48.480 which is really the conversation that we should be having. 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:52.000 And so it's important for people to understand that when 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:55.880 you spend, for example, in California, fifty billion dollars a 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:59.960 year on your justice system, you are making a philisop 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:03.240 optical statement that this is what you believe. It's not 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:05.560 a matter of safety. There's a million different types of 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:11.600 interventions and alternate models besides locking up individuals, and besides 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:14.840 all of the many atrocities that sort of happened to 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:17.720 our youth and to incarcerated women in the system. So 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:21.920 you're making a decision that this is how your resources 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:24.040 should be sent. And so I think there's a couple 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:27.480 of things versus reframing it to opportunity versus oppression, and 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:32.400 also to naysayers around changing the justice system. It usually 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:35.039 comes from a really myoptic view of what the justice 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:37.880 system is. It comes from a view that it's a 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:40.279 person's worst act that they've ever committed and what the 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:44.000 retribution for that act is at the systemic level. And 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:46.440 so we need to broaden people's view of the system. 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:49.560 We need to broaden people's view of who is incarcerated, 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:54.039 why are they incarcerated? You know, mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:59.080 victims of prime, survivors of crime, survivors of abuse, survivors 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:03.680 of discrimination and prejudice, violence of all kinds. That really, 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:07.640 those stories and that understanding is ultimately will fuel the 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:10.560 empathy and the demand for change. I think if people 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:15.240 understood how we've invested ourselves emotionally and really in our 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:18.960 identity as a country around the justice system, it would 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:21.279 do more to change it. You know. The last question 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:23.920 for you, Daniel and I you know, I just want 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:26.680 to once again like commend you and the work that 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:30.159 represents justice has been doing over the past couple of 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:33.520 years since your launch, because I think you know, as 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:36.880 a storyteller, right, as somebody who works to share information 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:40.039 and tell stories, I think that it's incredibly important. I 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:43.000 want to ask you, you know, when we are having 0:05:43.000 --> 0:05:45.840 these conversations that are readily in the press right now 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:50.200 about abolition, right the abolition of the police, the abolition 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:54.279 of this very injust system, they understanding that throwing people 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:56.440 in jail and throwing away the key has not made 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:59.760 our society any better. That looking at people as obstacles 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:03.440 other than opportunities for change or possibility is where we 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:05.839 actually need to lead and need to put our investment. 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:09.320 Do you think that we need to change the conversation 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:13.160 or change the language that we use in terms of abolition. 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:16.040 Do you think that that has been a hindrance to 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:19.159 people getting on the side of how we reform this 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:24.000 system or is it just we need to talk more 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:27.800 about it and we need to familiarize people more. I 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:31.640 think we just need a more detailed understanding around what 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:36.000 it means. I think that there's some misunderstanding around abolition 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:39.760 that is completely willful, and then there's some just general 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:43.520 misunderstanding around what it means, I think, or that converts 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:46.400 it to kind of this zero it's either going to 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:52.760 be no public safety or the current system that we have. 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:55.160 And so what I would do is I would reframe 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:58.440 kind of the context of it to say that we know, 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:02.240 and we all, every single one of us desires to 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:07.160 live in a safe community, a well invested community. We 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:11.840 desire to feel protected. We desire that when you know, 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:16.320 people stumble or commit mistakes, they not be defined by 0:07:16.360 --> 0:07:20.400 those mistakes, but rather given a chance to grow redeem 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:23.920 themselves in a way that doesn't harm anyone, so storing 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:25.840 the harm that they've caused and also repairing the harm 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:29.160 that has been caused often to them. But take a 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:31.480 look at our prison system and does it do that? 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:34.880 And I think that if you give that deeper understanding 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:38.560 around the narratives that people's stories, you will lead to 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:41.760 a very logical conclusion that the prison system does not 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:45.120 do that. The prison system does not rehabilitate you. It 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:48.320 is not just a predictive it is a predictable consequence. 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:51.840 In fact, it's validated by by the stigma that people 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:55.360 who are returning citizens have that we don't feel like 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:58.520 the prison system is doing anything good. And so you 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:02.200 have to really kind of give that additional context and 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:05.640 narrative to share that this system is not working. The 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:07.760 system it is working, as you said, the way that 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:11.880 it's been intended to safety. It's not bettering people, it's 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:15.760 not bettering the communities. And if we can really communicate 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:18.840 that clearly with people's voices who've been impacted by the 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:23.000 system at the center of it, everyone everyone will understand 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:26.280 what it means when we say abolish, abolish prisons, or 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:30.080 whatever the case might be. It's abolishing the trauma and 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:33.080 the trauma factory, the prisons that have become That was 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:37.719 as I mentioned earlier written into the constitutional amendments. I mean, 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:41.120 we could have foreseen that mass incarceration would be the 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:46.680 evolution of slavery, of racism, and everything else. So it's 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:49.200 not meant to be at odds with the values that 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:51.680 we all share, but it's meant to point out that 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:55.559 this system is not accomplishing those values at all for anyone, 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:58.120 and there's a better way to do things, and it's 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:02.319 time for our philosophy as a country to completely change. 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:08.199 While Daniel and I agree that the prison system is 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:11.880 not actually intended for rehabilitation, there is still work to 0:09:11.880 --> 0:09:15.000 be done to help people understand the prison industrial complex 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:17.640 so that we can work together as a people to 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:20.720 end private prisons and create a system that works better 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:24.040 for everyone. One small thing you can do is to 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:27.480 help share these conversations with your friends and family, equip 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:30.040 them with the knowledge they can use to expand wokeness 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:33.520 in their own communities. Activist calls to abolish prisons and 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:37.240 defund the police might be confusing to people until they 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:40.760 understand what they actually mean in practice. So I asked 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:43.280 Maya Wiley, who is running from mayor of New York City, 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:46.200 how she interprets these calls to defund the police in 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:50.520 a city where there is endemic police violence against everyday citizens. 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:57.280 When we talk about this term of defund the police 0:09:57.559 --> 0:10:01.000 right and of creating investment in community, we see that 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:04.280 there is incredible pushback from the police. We see incredible 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:08.040 pushback from police unions. I want to know, how do 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:13.720 you both create a city that is equitable in terms 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:16.920 of the fact that my tax dollars go to funding 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:20.480 them police, just like my white neighbors tax dollars go 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:23.640 to funding the police. Except I would be fearful to 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:25.840 call the police if I needed them because I don't 0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:28.880 want to end up as a hashtag. And so how 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:32.760 do we look at the readjustment in terms of the 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:36.199 relationship that police have with the communities that they are policing, 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:39.559 the excess violence that we have seen over the course 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:42.559 of decades with too many black lives lost, and then 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:45.360 also recognizing that we are not putting money in the 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:48.720 right place. But when we talk about defund that spins 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:52.600 off into something else. So how does your campaign, would 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:57.000 your administration deal with this balancing act that we've seen 0:10:57.120 --> 0:11:02.000 play out across the country. Yeah, look, I start with 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:07.280 it from the perspective of a moral budget. A moral budget, 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:10.720 and a moral budget requires us one to look at 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:15.040 how we build revenue effectively, but in ways that solve problems, 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:19.320 not create them. Right, So revenue generation means thinking about 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:22.160 as I said, you know, we're going to take ten 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:25.800 billion dollars, actually didn't say this part the caring economy 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:28.319 is one piece of that. Right, We're actually putting money 0:11:28.360 --> 0:11:32.440 back in people's pockets. They can care for themselves, they 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:36.000 can care for their communities. They can put money back 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:39.320 into the economy when we help them get those jobs, 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:43.160 when we help them work because or deal with emergencies, 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:45.439 because they have a safe place to leave family members. 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:48.000 We also, by giving them those grants, are ensuring that 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:50.800 they can put money back into the economy. That's good 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:54.160 for everyone and that actually brings revenue back into the city. Coffers. 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:58.040 It's also looking at it from what our resources are 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:01.920 that we control. That creates more of those opportunities. So 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:06.240 I'm going to spend ten billion dollars capital construction budget 0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:09.280 that is separate from the expense budget. We're often talking 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:11.680 about budgeting. Is if we don't have two different budgets, 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:15.920 but we do the capital budget, that just means money 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:19.760 we borrow to build things we need built and fix 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:22.720 things we need fixed. And what do we need? We 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:26.400 need affordable housing that's deeply affordable for so many of 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:29.120 our workers who work hard but can't afford the rent. 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:32.760 We need, you know, to make sure that they're creating. 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:36.080 We're solving the problem with nitscha. So we'll put two 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:39.480 billion dollars into renovation and rehabilitation. As I said, my 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:42.920 god son lives in public housing. This ain't theoretical for me. 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:47.920 People are unsafe and unsanitary conditions and they deserve better 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:51.480 green economy, green jobs. You know how we're thinking about 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:55.200 building resiliency when you know two thirds of our people 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:57.440 who are in flood zones or low income people of color. 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:01.240 So these are all ways where we're fixing problems we 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:03.880 have as a city. But we're doing it by creating 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:06.600 a hundred thousand jobs. We're going to do local target 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:10.360 and hiring. We're going to think about local procurement, buying 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:12.240 the things we need for those projects. We're going to 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:15.880 be thinking about how that creates jobs for artists and 0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:21.000 creatives as well, so that while while we're spending and 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:24.840 borrowing to spend in a way that is stimulative that 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:27.640 we know from the Great Recession to the Great Depression 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:31.160 has helped us come back in the past. We're also 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:33.840 going to focus it on art what I call communities 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:37.199 of concern, which were the communities that were worse off 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:40.800 before COVID, and we're worse off during COVID, and we'll 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:45.320 have a long trajectory to recovery and deserve investments post COVID. 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:49.120 And so that's really looking at our budget differently, and 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:51.320 we've already talked about it on the police side. It 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:54.280 means that when we make cuts, and we will, that 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:58.280 we're making choices that are about investing in our future, 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:02.200 because that's what a moral bud is. It is investment 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:05.280 in the kind of city I think we all want 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:07.640 to live in. When I talk about it in that way, 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:11.240 when I talk about what is just good common sense, 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:15.320 like nobody thinks that police officer's job is responding to 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:18.439 a mental health crisis. Everyone agrees that it's a mental 0:14:18.480 --> 0:14:21.200 health professional that should be responding to a mental health 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:24.760 crisis with the ability to ask her police backup if 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:28.960 the expert thinks he or she needs it, But that 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:32.280 should be a call by a mental health expert not 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:34.600 by the police who don't sign up for the force 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:38.000 to become mental health experts. That's not why they're signing 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:40.720 up for the job. And there's so much that we 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:43.400 can focus policing on that's appropriate and that we know 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:47.040 our communities want police focused on. I use the legal 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:51.080 guns because that's such an obvious example, and it's such 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:53.520 an example that police officers also want to work on. 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:56.120 But putting more police officers on a street corner doesn't 0:14:56.120 --> 0:14:59.240 stop the shooting it, Oh, it just moves it over 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:02.200 a block. Why would we keep doing it that way? 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:08.360 It is often said that the definition of insanity is 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:10.960 doing the same thing over and over again and expecting 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:14.000 a different result. We have seen what the prison system 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:17.160 and police departments due to Black Americans across this country. 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:20.360 We cannot keep doing things the same way. There needs 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:23.440 to be deep systemic change, and folks like Daniel Fokio 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:26.000 and Maya Wiley are leading the charge to make this 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:29.920 a better nation for all Americans, but especially black folks 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:33.680 and people of color who suffer disproportionately. To hear more 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:36.960 of these conversations every single week, you know what to do. 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:40.920 Head over to patreon dot com, slash woke f and subscribe. 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:43.400 Five dollars a month gets you five shows a week 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:47.360 full of in depth discussions just like these until next time. 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:50.160 Power to the people and to all the people. Power, 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:52.840 get woke and stay woke as fuck.