WEBVTT - Archive Alive 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.520 Hey, y'all, Eve's here. I know you're ready to get 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:05.600 into this episode, but really quick. We have been loving 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:09.080 connecting with y'all over black storytelling, and if you've really 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:11.559 been loving the show, then we would really appreciate it 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:14.240 if you would leave us a rating and review, subscribe 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:16.840 to the show, and share it with your friends. Thanks y'all, 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:22.239 Now time for the episode. On Theme is a production 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:35.000 of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:49.600 In the past couple of years, I've talked to a 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:52.720 bunch of people while reporting my book about black bookstores 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:55.880 pro to the people out early twenty twenty five. One 0:00:55.880 --> 0:00:59.040 of those people is Brother y'all or Hokee S. Lover 0:00:59.200 --> 0:00:59.560 the Third. 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:03.520 My name is Brother Yao Hope Gus Glover the Third. 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:08.920 I'm chair of the Language, Literature and Cultural Studies program 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:12.320 at Buois State University. I've written two books of poetry, 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:16.160 and prior to working at the university, I was the 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:19.720 co owner of Caibu Books, one of the nation's largest 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:20.399 book stores. 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:23.640 At one point, Brother y'all co owned the most successful 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:27.160 black bookstore chain in the country, Caribou Books, Kaboo Clothes, 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:30.120 and the Late Oats. We're on that in prose Now. 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:33.080 Brother y'ao is up at Bouoi State in Maryland and 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:36.839 the co author of Crazy as Hell, a refreshing, insightful, 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:41.319 and irreverend take on African American history. Crazy as Hell 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:43.759 just came out this week, and what struck me most 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:46.440 about it was how funny it was. As a student 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:48.880 of black history, I found it. It's often taught in 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:52.600 somber and CPA tones, and of course some of it 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:55.440 is somber, but some of it is funny, some of 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:57.760 it is poignant, and some of it makes you go, 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:00.320 I'll come on now, wait a damn it. 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:03.960 Today on our show, we're sharing the mic with archivists 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:06.840 from across the country and archivists who give us stories 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:11.080 that they're tired, they're poor, and they're blackfishing musicians. On 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:14.359 today's episode, we're passing the mic to authors and archivists 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:18.000 to hear their take on little known black history. I'm 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:23.639 Eves and I'm Katie. Today's episode Archive Alive. Here's a 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:26.840 crazy as Hell story about a crazy as Hell rebel, 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:27.720 read by Yau. 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:33.600 Not much is known about Denmark Vessey. We do know 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:36.240 that he was a literate slave, like another of our 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:39.880 craziest hell heroes, not Turner, and we know that more 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:43.480 than one hundred years later, a white supremacist would slaughter 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:47.280 nine people at Vessy's church, mother, emmanuel A and me 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:50.360 and Charleston, South Carolina. You can look it up if 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:53.840 you want to to know more about the connection. Denmark 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:57.040 VESSI won the powerball on the South Carolina State lottery 0:02:57.120 --> 0:03:01.720 in eighteen hundred, purchases freedom and began stockpiling weapons and 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:05.480 organizing folks for a slave vote. Of course we're kidding. 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:08.480 There wasn't a power ball back then, but the rest 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:12.359 is true. At the age of thirty two, Vessy purchased 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:16.040 his freedom with six hundred dollars after winning fifteen hundred 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:19.720 dollars in the lottery. Think about that. Black folks played 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:22.880 their numbers today, trying to win the lottery so they 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:27.000 can purchase their economic freedom. Vessey's real claim to fame 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:30.560 and what makes him crazy as hell, was his organizing 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:33.680 what many considered to be the largest plan for a 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:36.680 slave revolt in the history of the country. It is 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:39.640 said that as he planned a revolt, Vessey even sent 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:44.640 word to Haiti to begin to set up international relations. 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:49.040 And that's just one of mini profiles that Hoak and 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:52.000 his co author Via four Prince include in the book 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:56.080 Crazy as Hell is organized into different archetypes. Here's y'ao. 0:03:56.840 --> 0:04:01.240 This idea of framing who black people people are with 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:06.040 archetypes is really the way we get out of the oppositions. 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:08.360 That's at the core of like the way we view race. 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:11.680 Because a problem with black history is Black history is 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:14.920 usually white people are just so important in Black history 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:18.800 because of the oppositions, because of the binary. But the 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:23.880 solution is to create archetypes within black history so that 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:27.520 when black people are reading Black history, they're not simply 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:31.120 looking at themselves as opposed to whites. But now they 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:36.000 can say, I'm like the badass, I'm like the lawless, 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:40.960 I'm like the funky, I'm like these particular people in 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:44.919 Black history, And so that decenters this whole idea of 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:47.320 the importance of white people when we're telling a Black 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:48.160 history story. 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:51.039 Yeah, this was one of my favorite profiles and Crazy 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:53.679 as Hell, and I also think it shows like y'all fed, 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:56.200 like black people are still playing the lottery hoping to 0:04:56.200 --> 0:04:58.360 get free. You know, it's not a different level, but 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:00.040 you know, I'll be looking at that little mega a 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:03.480 million sign and imagine in my life as a free woman. 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:05.640 And you're not the only one, okay, and you know 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:08.239 what else? What else? I would also take up arms 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:13.159 that part too. It is aspirational when you look up 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:14.560 at that sign and you're like that could be me. 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:19.000 But yes, as a means of economic freedom, it's not 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:20.840 just like we're doing this just for shits and gigs. 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:23.719 It's like we're actually trying to survive. And yes, it 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:26.120 is a hoarding of wealth, like it's far more wealth 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:28.599 than we would actually need to persist. I don't know. 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:31.240 I feel like in a way, yes it's more than 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:34.840 we need, but it could feel like an accumulation of 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:37.159 all of the wealth that we didn't have over time 0:05:37.560 --> 0:05:40.320 and what we're owed. So technically it is what we 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:41.680 need to survive well. 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:43.960 And in Denmark Vessi's case, I mean, I don't know 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:47.159 the translation in today's money, but he took that money 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:49.839 and was like, I'm talking piling weapons. I'm getting in 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:52.640 contact with Haiti and we're going to free more than 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:54.720 just me, which I just really respect, Like, you know, 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:57.560 you got to take folks with you, and I think 0:05:57.560 --> 0:05:59.599 that's what people are really scared of, like when black 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:02.760 people not only get it for themselves but help other 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:03.479 people get it too. 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:06.520 Yeah. I mean that money clearly is enough to go 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:09.880 beyond his own reach. And that was only half of 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:12.680 the money that he had. Yeah, I think lesson half, 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:13.560 lesson half. 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:19.200 Yeah, So amusing. Yeah. And you know, in addition to 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:22.000 speaking to people like brother Y'ao, I also found myself 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:25.880 in different archives across the country while researching parts of 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:28.160 the People. I was at the Shawanberg and Harlem, the 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:31.920 Auburn Avenue Research Library in Atlanta. I've worked with Afro 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:33.719 Charities at Baltimore, So I was all over the place 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:36.359 and I had this new found like appreciation and respect 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:39.640 for the archivist I encountered. So I found some funny 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:42.599 stuff in the archives. I found people's bills passed due 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:46.760 then running from their bill collectors, the law everybody. And 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:49.440 I was wondering, like, what other funny things that are 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:52.039 out there that these archivists who spend a lot of 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:55.120 time helping people find things, like people like me researching books, 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:56.200 are just doing their own research. 0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:59.160 What else is in there? So today we are passing 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:02.799 the mic onto archivists to hear some of those stories 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:04.680 more after the break. 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:14.280 Up. 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:18.160 Next, Britney Newberry, music and popular culture archivist at Georgia 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:23.200 State University Library, she highlights a pioneering incident of auditory blackface. 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:29.040 It started with a voicemail, a voicemail that took me 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:31.080 back to nineteen forty four. 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:41.080 Hello, I have a podcast and I am going to 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:48.160 be featuring a song that Johnny Mercer had recorded called 0:07:48.880 --> 0:08:01.960 I Lost My Sugar in Salt Lake City. 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:00.680 Savannah born and raised lyricist Johnny Mercer was voted the 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:03.840 most popularly Young Colored Singer on the Radio from the 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:08.280 Abraham Lincoln Junior Club, an all black organization based in Chicago. 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:13.640 Johnny Mercer was soaring high. His radio program, Johnny Mercer's 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:20.280 Chesterfield Music Shop, was sponsored by Chesterfield Cigarettes. Johnny songs Jeepers, 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:23.560 Creepers and One for My Baby and One More for 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:27.080 the Road received acclaim and he was writing songs for 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:30.560 films and musicals. He would later go on to write 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:34.480 lyrics for Grammy and Oscar, winning songs like Moon River 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:38.720 and The Days of Wine and Roses. According to the 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:42.280 ad execs for this radio show, this award for most 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:46.520 Popular Young Colored Singer on the Radio, certainly must be 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:51.680 his signal honor. But there was a problem. Johnny Mercer 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:57.680 was white. There was no evidence indicating he gave the 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:00.240 award back due to the error or even wreck. 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:02.400 Did the mistake? And why is that? 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:05.920 How did this happen? I go back to the voicemail. 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:10.240 As Georgia State's music and popular culture artists, I received 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:13.559 various requests from people looking for something in the archives. 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:16.400 Can I get a copy of the sheet music for 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:19.400 this song or that song? What information do you have 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:22.680 on the Atlanta Symphony Youth Orchestra. Can I see the 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:26.960 performance contracts you have from the Atlanta International Pop Festival? 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:30.959 And on and on, And this day was no different. 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:34.920 The caller was looking for information on the song I 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:38.640 Lost My Sugar in Salt Lake City, sung by Johnny Mercer. 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:42.960 According to the researcher, the original recording had a unique 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:46.760 change to it that was not present in other recordings, 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:50.640 a distinct patter section in the middle of the song. 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:54.439 Salt Lake City is renowned for its beauty. 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:59.760 The snowcapped Washsatch Mountains are nearby. 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:04.360 After returning the call, the research question came down to this, 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:08.680 did Johnny Mercer sing like he was black, and is 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:12.640 the power section of this song evidence of that. I 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:15.560 put my archivist hat on and I went searching, pulling 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:19.599 boxes and searching folders, and I found the original correspondence 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:25.400 and postcard notifying him of winning the award. It's one sentence. 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:30.480 The Abraham Lincoln Junior Club of this city has this 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:34.920 date voted you the most popular young colored singer on 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:40.840 the radio. Harris Owens, secretary. The letter from the radio 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:44.480 show AD executives called it the award for most Popular 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:49.199 Singer on the Radio, leaving out colored. It even references 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:52.960 receiving a lot of mail congratulating the AD company. He 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:56.120 won the award in nineteen forty four, and the song 0:10:56.360 --> 0:10:59.920 was released in nineteen thirty four. I gave this information 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:02.439 as well as copies of the lyrics, to the researcher 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:05.920 and let them decide. Johnny Mercer was born in nineteen 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:09.400 o nine to an upper class family. His family employed 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:12.920 black housemaids, who sparked his interests in jazz and blues. 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:16.360 As a child, he played with black friends and learned 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:20.960 to speak Geechee, the African Creole dialect of Savannah. As 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:24.079 a teenager, he listened to what were called Race records 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:28.400 by Bessie Smith, Louis Armstrong, and Maul Rainey at the 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:32.720 record stores in Savannah's Black business district. My job as 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:35.800 an archivist is not to form and give my opinions, 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:39.360 but to provide information so that researchers can make informed 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:43.760 decisions and interpretations. So I invite you to do the same. 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:47.280 Listen to I Lost My Sugar in Salt Lake City 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:51.440 and other songs by Mercer and decide for yourself. Was 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:54.960 Johnny Mercer part of the time honored American tradition of 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:58.640 stealing from black people or was he simply influenced by 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:02.480 the culture and people around him. What does it mean 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:05.800 for him to win an award not meant for a 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:09.760 white man? And what does it mean to sound black? Anyway? 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:20.720 I Lost My Sugar in Salt. 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:25.880 So what did you think about mister Mercer? Mister Mercer 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:28.000 was giving contemporary times, Okay. 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:29.559 He said, I mean, I don't know if he was 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:31.280 ahead of his time, because you know, I wasn't you 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:32.839 know around back then. 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:35.040 Maybe they were just doing that. But I was like, oh, 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:39.280 you would have fit in Yes, you would fit twenty four. Yeah, 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:42.319 he was really trying hard to make himself seem like 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:43.959 he was somebody who he was not. 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:47.680 Okay, But here's the realty. And I spoke with Brittany 0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:50.560 about this, and for the record, Brittany absolutely disagreed with 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:53.280 this take that I'm about to share. But I thought 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:57.160 that the reason that he accepted this award is because 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:00.920 he was passing. Okay, because, as she said that he 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:05.520 grew up in Savannah. Yeah, was around the Gulla Geechee folks. 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:09.360 We'll go to the black record store. She completely disagreed. 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:11.520 She said he was from a very prominent family. Everybody 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:14.000 knew his family, everybody knew they were white. But I'm like, 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:16.320 that's exactly what a prominent white family would do. The 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:18.440 mother would sneak off, have her a little black baby 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:22.000 and be happy that it could pass. And he knew. 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:25.000 And black people be clocking people that are passing. They 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:27.200 don't be saying too much. They let them live, but 0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:28.280 they're like, I know you're black. 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:30.680 Okay. So two things. One, I looked at a picture 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:33.240 of him and I did wonder, not even gonna lie. 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:36.120 I was like, these features be black, Yes they could. 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:44.319 It was giving m a lota Okay. But my question 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:46.760 for you is if the theory is that he was passing. 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:49.880 Why would he want to out himself in a way 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:53.480 by accepting the award as being a colored person. 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:55.480 I think it's just like a little nod, a little wink, 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:59.040 like yeah you saw me, okay, And cause it could 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:02.120 be like ohl, like they think I'm black, they don't 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:04.680 know I'm white, but really they know the truth. 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:07.080 But Brittany said like that wasn't true. 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:08.600 He was kind of one of those white people that 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:11.360 were like hung out with other black musicians, but only 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:13.640 because they were the quote unquote good blacks, and would 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:15.760 say stuff like that, like little problematic things like that 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:18.880 he was the most racist guy out there. But you 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:21.960 know he wasn't no civil rights activist or anything like that, right, 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:25.320 So that was my take on it. That's what I 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:27.880 thought might be going on. But yeah, there's so many 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:29.880 artists that be white and you think they're black. 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:31.720 But is that on us or is said on them? 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:34.640 Is that them being performatively black or is that just 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:38.760 us not understanding that other people can like work within genres. 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:42.360 I don't know, because nobody listening to himinem go think 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:44.840 he's black even though he's in a black genre. Like 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:46.360 no one's going to listen to that and be like, 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:48.880 that's a black man, you know what I'm saying. So 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:50.880 you can be in the genre and still sound white. 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:53.360 I think that's tough because I mean, there are plenty 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:54.640 of times when I hear people and I don't know 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:57.720 what race they are, but you don't know what race 0:14:57.720 --> 0:14:58.040 they are. 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:00.720 But I think there is a difference between being like, oh, 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:03.880 I can't place this voice versus like, the way this 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:05.600 person talks is like a black person. 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:09.600 They're affecting a black dialect in their language and black intonation. Yes, 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:13.360 and that's what mister Mercer was doing, I believe. 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:13.240 So. 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:18.080 Yeah, I can see that. I mean, yes, he is 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:20.400 an archetype or a prototype for all of the people 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:22.920 who are doing that today because there are so many 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:26.120 people in hip hop who do it. So I think 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:29.760 there is also an element that the first time you 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:33.640 hear somebody, unless they're like markedly white, you know what 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:37.280 I mean, Right, the first time you hear somebody performing rap, 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:40.120 if they have a voice, even if they aren't putting 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:42.600 on any sort of affects or dialects, you assume that 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:46.560 they're black. Because it is a genre that we created 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:49.680 and we are more prominent in it and more numerous. 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:53.080 But Johnny Mercer's song wasn't a rap song. No, they 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:58.000 thought the Lincoln Group, the All Boys, all African American group, 0:15:58.040 --> 0:15:59.800 thought he was black. But I do think that it's 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:03.680 probably like something that occurred more during that time, because 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:08.560 now we're like a very celebrity centric society, at least 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:10.880 here in the United States. So if you hear somebody, 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:13.280 you might go, you know, look them up, see who 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:16.160 their kids are, see who their parents are, like, try 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:18.000 to learn all these things about him. But if you 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:20.200 just like hear a guy on the radio, like in 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:24.640 the thirties, you're going to be like, okay, And that's 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:27.840 kind of it. So it might be easier to mistake 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:32.520 people's identities maybe race, maybe gender, and all all types 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:34.280 of things you get confused because you just hear them 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:35.440 on the radio and then go about your day. 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:39.320 So I'm imagining Mercer as a child listening to records 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:43.640 and loving them and not having a consciousness around race 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:46.240 except for probably all the racist things that he was 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:49.360 starting to be in viute with. But Brittany talked about 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:51.600 how he listened to race records, and I'm thinking about 0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:55.240 how popular those were So I'm imagining Mercer listening to these, 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:57.640 falling in love with them, hearing them around the house, 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:01.440 having people, adults who were in his life, playing this, 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:05.080 and he starts to sing that way, the same way 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:08.040 as he heard other people sing. At some point I 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:11.840 would imagine he developed a consciousness around race. Is it 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:14.240 okay for him to continue to sing in that style 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:18.560 of music regardless of race? Or should he have pulled 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:22.720 back on trying to imitate those people that he might 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:25.760 have considered people who really influenced the his style of 0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:28.520 singing as he got older and started putting out his 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:29.240 own records. 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:32.800 I mean it proved okay for him. He went on 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:35.760 to be very successful. That wasn't the only award he 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:39.479 was winning Chile. So other people liked it, and to 0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:42.480 be fair, I haven't you know, went and listened to 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:45.600 his whole catalog. So maybe this is the only song 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:48.760 where he let his little black percentage pop out, you know, 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:51.840 so he could be founding like a regular white man 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:54.880 and all his other discography. I don't know, but yeah, 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:58.400 it was giving a precursor to Danny lay. 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:03.120 Meme reference for the online girlies. Is that a meme? 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:05.879 Oh, it's a white woman who's pretending to be a 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:09.199 black woman. A singer, maybe R and B pop, but 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:12.560 he was definitely laying the groundwork for the black fishing. 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:16.399 So to answer Brittany's question, what does it mean to 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:17.240 sound black anyway? 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:19.439 I think it's not something that you can really like 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:23.560 quantify with words. Yeah, do you think I sound black? 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:27.840 No? Well, I feel like that's not the best. 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:28.920 No, it's not. 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:33.119 That's what was funny to me. Yeah. I don't think 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:33.600 it's something. 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:36.480 That you can truly quantify. And that's why AI will 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:37.359 never replace humans. 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:40.480 I think we have a special lay on it as 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:42.920 black people though. Yeah, I think we know it better 0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:45.800 than anybody else what a black person would say or 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:46.560 would sound like. 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:49.360 Right, So that's why I'm saying that group that heard 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:51.560 him and then gave him that award, I think they 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:54.280 were really picking up on something that was, you know, 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:55.840 underneath the surface. 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:01.240 For our last story, we're getting into some no. 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:03.399 No, I will go to jail behind this. 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:15.199 That's after the break. Stay with us. 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:18.520 My name is Tiffany Atwater Lee. I'm the head of 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:21.959 Research Services at the Atlanta University Center Robert W. Woochef 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:25.520 Libraries Archives Research Center. So I'm gonna tell a story 0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:29.240 about the widow of my favorite archable character here at 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:32.840 the aec witch Off Library, and that is Miss Virginia Hope. 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:38.040 Mister Virginia Hope was an organizer and a community activist, 0:19:38.119 --> 0:19:40.399 but she was also the wife of the first African 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:44.200 American president of a Morehouse and Atlanta University, doctor John Hope. 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:47.840 After his passing in nineteen thirty six, she did some 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:50.880 interesting things to ensure that the legacy of her husband 0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:56.640 was maintained, and that included some controversy with the Atlanta 0:19:56.720 --> 0:20:01.399 University Center or the Atlanta University President. So around nineteen 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:04.520 thirty seven, right after the passing of her husband, she 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:08.879 starts to write about getting access to these personal files 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:12.840 that her husband gave her keys to and said one 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:15.679 day you may need these. And so she's writing to 0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:19.560 the president of the Board of Trustees, asking can I 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:24.480 get these files? I've gotten some files from his personal secretary, 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:26.439 but I know that there's more, like there has to 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:30.639 be more, and so the Board of Trustees president can't 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:32.719 really help, you know, he's the Board of Trustees president. 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:37.440 And so she decides after about a year and a 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:40.760 half of waiting and really not getting anywhere. She's just 0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:44.479 going to take them. So she bypasses the president at 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:50.439 the time, and she goes to the administration building, the 0:20:50.480 --> 0:20:53.840 President's office when she knows that both the president his 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:56.920 secretary as well as the former president in the interim 0:20:56.960 --> 0:20:59.840 period is not in the city of Atlanta, and she 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:03.600 finds a custodian and she basically says, I left my 0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:05.800 person there. Can you help me get in there? And 0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:09.400 everybody knows Virginia Hope, she's the former first Lady, so 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:12.240 they let her in. Then they start to get a 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:16.160 little skeptical when they realize she has movers downstairs and 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:21.639 so what the supervisor of the custodian is like, she's 0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:25.600 taking file cabinets. So he writes a telegram to the 0:21:25.640 --> 0:21:28.920 president of the university, who's rufus Clement at the time, 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:31.560 and it's like Ms. Hope is stealing or not stilling. 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:34.160 He didn't say stealing, he said she's taking these files, 0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:38.960 and so Clement stops his trip and hurries back to Atlanta, 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:43.240 and of course the files are missing, and Leginia is ghost. 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:46.320 He cannot find her. He is calling everywhere trying to 0:21:46.359 --> 0:21:51.719 find out. Luckily, he finds what moving company she used 0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:55.840 and goes to the moving company and says, you know, 0:21:56.080 --> 0:21:58.560 I get that she paid for this storage unit, so 0:21:58.640 --> 0:22:00.800 you can't give the materials to us, but can you 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:03.040 limit access so she can't get in there until we 0:22:03.080 --> 0:22:07.040 find out essentially who owns these materials. So the movie 0:22:07.040 --> 0:22:10.159 company is like, sure, we can do that. So in 0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:12.280 this time, they're still trying to write to miss Hope 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:15.600 get to understand where she is, and she's not answering anything. 0:22:15.840 --> 0:22:18.240 She eventually goes to the movers to try to sort 0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:20.800 through these materials herself, and the movers are like, no, 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:23.640 you can't. You can't look at these files. So then 0:22:23.760 --> 0:22:27.920 she calls Clement. In that discussion, which he talks about 0:22:27.920 --> 0:22:31.439 in a correspondence to the President of the Board of Trustees, 0:22:31.840 --> 0:22:36.280 he basically says that missus Hope said, I didn't want 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:38.240 to involve you in this because they had nothing to 0:22:38.280 --> 0:22:41.320 do with you. It was before your presidency, and these 0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:44.120 files belonged to us or to me and my family, 0:22:44.680 --> 0:22:47.639