1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,520 Speaker 1: Hey, y'all, Eve's here. I know you're ready to get 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: into this episode, but really quick. We have been loving 3 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: connecting with y'all over black storytelling, and if you've really 4 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:11,559 Speaker 1: been loving the show, then we would really appreciate it 5 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: if you would leave us a rating and review, subscribe 6 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: to the show, and share it with your friends. Thanks y'all, 7 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: Now time for the episode. On Theme is a production 8 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. 9 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 2: In the past couple of years, I've talked to a 10 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 2: bunch of people while reporting my book about black bookstores 11 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 2: pro to the people out early twenty twenty five. One 12 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 2: of those people is Brother y'all or Hokee S. Lover 13 00:00:59,200 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 2: the Third. 14 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 3: My name is Brother Yao Hope Gus Glover the Third. 15 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 3: I'm chair of the Language, Literature and Cultural Studies program 16 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,320 Speaker 3: at Buois State University. I've written two books of poetry, 17 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 3: and prior to working at the university, I was the 18 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 3: co owner of Caibu Books, one of the nation's largest 19 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 3: book stores. 20 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 2: At one point, Brother y'all co owned the most successful 21 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 2: black bookstore chain in the country, Caribou Books, Kaboo Clothes, 22 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 2: and the Late Oats. We're on that in prose Now. 23 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 2: Brother y'ao is up at Bouoi State in Maryland and 24 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,839 Speaker 2: the co author of Crazy as Hell, a refreshing, insightful, 25 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 2: and irreverend take on African American history. Crazy as Hell 26 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:43,759 Speaker 2: just came out this week, and what struck me most 27 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 2: about it was how funny it was. As a student 28 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 2: of black history, I found it. It's often taught in 29 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 2: somber and CPA tones, and of course some of it 30 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 2: is somber, but some of it is funny, some of 31 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 2: it is poignant, and some of it makes you go, 32 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 2: I'll come on now, wait a damn it. 33 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: Today on our show, we're sharing the mic with archivists 34 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: from across the country and archivists who give us stories 35 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 1: that they're tired, they're poor, and they're blackfishing musicians. On 36 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:14,359 Speaker 1: today's episode, we're passing the mic to authors and archivists 37 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: to hear their take on little known black history. I'm 38 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 1: Eves and I'm Katie. Today's episode Archive Alive. Here's a 39 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: crazy as Hell story about a crazy as Hell rebel, 40 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: read by Yau. 41 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 3: Not much is known about Denmark Vessey. We do know 42 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 3: that he was a literate slave, like another of our 43 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 3: craziest hell heroes, not Turner, and we know that more 44 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 3: than one hundred years later, a white supremacist would slaughter 45 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 3: nine people at Vessy's church, mother, emmanuel A and me 46 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 3: and Charleston, South Carolina. You can look it up if 47 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 3: you want to to know more about the connection. Denmark 48 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 3: VESSI won the powerball on the South Carolina State lottery 49 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 3: in eighteen hundred, purchases freedom and began stockpiling weapons and 50 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 3: organizing folks for a slave vote. Of course we're kidding. 51 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 3: There wasn't a power ball back then, but the rest 52 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:12,359 Speaker 3: is true. At the age of thirty two, Vessy purchased 53 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 3: his freedom with six hundred dollars after winning fifteen hundred 54 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 3: dollars in the lottery. Think about that. Black folks played 55 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 3: their numbers today, trying to win the lottery so they 56 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 3: can purchase their economic freedom. Vessey's real claim to fame 57 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 3: and what makes him crazy as hell, was his organizing 58 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 3: what many considered to be the largest plan for a 59 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 3: slave revolt in the history of the country. It is 60 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 3: said that as he planned a revolt, Vessey even sent 61 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 3: word to Haiti to begin to set up international relations. 62 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: And that's just one of mini profiles that Hoak and 63 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: his co author Via four Prince include in the book 64 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: Crazy as Hell is organized into different archetypes. Here's y'ao. 65 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 3: This idea of framing who black people people are with 66 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 3: archetypes is really the way we get out of the oppositions. 67 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 3: That's at the core of like the way we view race. 68 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 3: Because a problem with black history is Black history is 69 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 3: usually white people are just so important in Black history 70 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 3: because of the oppositions, because of the binary. But the 71 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 3: solution is to create archetypes within black history so that 72 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 3: when black people are reading Black history, they're not simply 73 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 3: looking at themselves as opposed to whites. But now they 74 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 3: can say, I'm like the badass, I'm like the lawless, 75 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 3: I'm like the funky, I'm like these particular people in 76 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,919 Speaker 3: Black history, And so that decenters this whole idea of 77 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 3: the importance of white people when we're telling a Black 78 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 3: history story. 79 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, this was one of my favorite profiles and Crazy 80 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,679 Speaker 2: as Hell, and I also think it shows like y'all fed, 81 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 2: like black people are still playing the lottery hoping to 82 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 2: get free. You know, it's not a different level, but 83 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:00,040 Speaker 2: you know, I'll be looking at that little mega a 84 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,480 Speaker 2: million sign and imagine in my life as a free woman. 85 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: And you're not the only one, okay, and you know 86 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,239 Speaker 1: what else? What else? I would also take up arms 87 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,159 Speaker 1: that part too. It is aspirational when you look up 88 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: at that sign and you're like that could be me. 89 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: But yes, as a means of economic freedom, it's not 90 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:20,840 Speaker 1: just like we're doing this just for shits and gigs. 91 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 1: It's like we're actually trying to survive. And yes, it 92 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: is a hoarding of wealth, like it's far more wealth 93 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 1: than we would actually need to persist. I don't know. 94 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 1: I feel like in a way, yes it's more than 95 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,840 Speaker 1: we need, but it could feel like an accumulation of 96 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 1: all of the wealth that we didn't have over time 97 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: and what we're owed. So technically it is what we 98 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: need to survive well. 99 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 2: And in Denmark Vessi's case, I mean, I don't know 100 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 2: the translation in today's money, but he took that money 101 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 2: and was like, I'm talking piling weapons. I'm getting in 102 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 2: contact with Haiti and we're going to free more than 103 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 2: just me, which I just really respect, Like, you know, 104 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 2: you got to take folks with you, and I think 105 00:05:57,560 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 2: that's what people are really scared of, like when black 106 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 2: people not only get it for themselves but help other 107 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 2: people get it too. 108 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean that money clearly is enough to go 109 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: beyond his own reach. And that was only half of 110 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: the money that he had. Yeah, I think lesson half, 111 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: lesson half. 112 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, So amusing. Yeah. And you know, in addition to 113 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 2: speaking to people like brother Y'ao, I also found myself 114 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 2: in different archives across the country while researching parts of 115 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 2: the People. I was at the Shawanberg and Harlem, the 116 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 2: Auburn Avenue Research Library in Atlanta. I've worked with Afro 117 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 2: Charities at Baltimore, So I was all over the place 118 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,359 Speaker 2: and I had this new found like appreciation and respect 119 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 2: for the archivist I encountered. So I found some funny 120 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 2: stuff in the archives. I found people's bills passed due 121 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 2: then running from their bill collectors, the law everybody. And 122 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 2: I was wondering, like, what other funny things that are 123 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 2: out there that these archivists who spend a lot of 124 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 2: time helping people find things, like people like me researching books, 125 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 2: are just doing their own research. 126 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,160 Speaker 1: What else is in there? So today we are passing 127 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,799 Speaker 1: the mic onto archivists to hear some of those stories 128 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: more after the break. 129 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 4: Up. 130 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 2: Next, Britney Newberry, music and popular culture archivist at Georgia 131 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 2: State University Library, she highlights a pioneering incident of auditory blackface. 132 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 5: It started with a voicemail, a voicemail that took me 133 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 5: back to nineteen forty four. 134 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 4: Hello, I have a podcast and I am going to 135 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 4: be featuring a song that Johnny Mercer had recorded called 136 00:07:48,880 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 4: I Lost My Sugar in Salt Lake City. 137 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 5: Savannah born and raised lyricist Johnny Mercer was voted the 138 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 5: most popularly Young Colored Singer on the Radio from the 139 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 5: Abraham Lincoln Junior Club, an all black organization based in Chicago. 140 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 5: Johnny Mercer was soaring high. His radio program, Johnny Mercer's 141 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 5: Chesterfield Music Shop, was sponsored by Chesterfield Cigarettes. Johnny songs Jeepers, 142 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 5: Creepers and One for My Baby and One More for 143 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 5: the Road received acclaim and he was writing songs for 144 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 5: films and musicals. He would later go on to write 145 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 5: lyrics for Grammy and Oscar, winning songs like Moon River 146 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 5: and The Days of Wine and Roses. According to the 147 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 5: ad execs for this radio show, this award for most 148 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 5: Popular Young Colored Singer on the Radio, certainly must be 149 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 5: his signal honor. But there was a problem. Johnny Mercer 150 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 5: was white. There was no evidence indicating he gave the 151 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 5: award back due to the error or even wreck. 152 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: Did the mistake? And why is that? 153 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 5: How did this happen? I go back to the voicemail. 154 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 5: As Georgia State's music and popular culture artists, I received 155 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,559 Speaker 5: various requests from people looking for something in the archives. 156 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 5: Can I get a copy of the sheet music for 157 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 5: this song or that song? What information do you have 158 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 5: on the Atlanta Symphony Youth Orchestra. Can I see the 159 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 5: performance contracts you have from the Atlanta International Pop Festival? 160 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,959 Speaker 5: And on and on, And this day was no different. 161 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 5: The caller was looking for information on the song I 162 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 5: Lost My Sugar in Salt Lake City, sung by Johnny Mercer. 163 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 5: According to the researcher, the original recording had a unique 164 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 5: change to it that was not present in other recordings, 165 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 5: a distinct patter section in the middle of the song. 166 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:54,439 Speaker 1: Salt Lake City is renowned for its beauty. 167 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 3: The snowcapped Washsatch Mountains are nearby. 168 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 5: After returning the call, the research question came down to this, 169 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 5: did Johnny Mercer sing like he was black, and is 170 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 5: the power section of this song evidence of that. I 171 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 5: put my archivist hat on and I went searching, pulling 172 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:19,599 Speaker 5: boxes and searching folders, and I found the original correspondence 173 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 5: and postcard notifying him of winning the award. It's one sentence. 174 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 5: The Abraham Lincoln Junior Club of this city has this 175 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 5: date voted you the most popular young colored singer on 176 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 5: the radio. Harris Owens, secretary. The letter from the radio 177 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 5: show AD executives called it the award for most Popular 178 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:49,199 Speaker 5: Singer on the Radio, leaving out colored. It even references 179 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 5: receiving a lot of mail congratulating the AD company. He 180 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 5: won the award in nineteen forty four, and the song 181 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 5: was released in nineteen thirty four. I gave this information 182 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,439 Speaker 5: as well as copies of the lyrics, to the researcher 183 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 5: and let them decide. Johnny Mercer was born in nineteen 184 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 5: o nine to an upper class family. His family employed 185 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 5: black housemaids, who sparked his interests in jazz and blues. 186 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 5: As a child, he played with black friends and learned 187 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 5: to speak Geechee, the African Creole dialect of Savannah. As 188 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,079 Speaker 5: a teenager, he listened to what were called Race records 189 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 5: by Bessie Smith, Louis Armstrong, and Maul Rainey at the 190 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 5: record stores in Savannah's Black business district. My job as 191 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 5: an archivist is not to form and give my opinions, 192 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 5: but to provide information so that researchers can make informed 193 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 5: decisions and interpretations. So I invite you to do the same. 194 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 5: Listen to I Lost My Sugar in Salt Lake City 195 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 5: and other songs by Mercer and decide for yourself. Was 196 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 5: Johnny Mercer part of the time honored American tradition of 197 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 5: stealing from black people or was he simply influenced by 198 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 5: the culture and people around him. What does it mean 199 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 5: for him to win an award not meant for a 200 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 5: white man? And what does it mean to sound black? Anyway? 201 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 2: I Lost My Sugar in Salt. 202 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: So what did you think about mister Mercer? Mister Mercer 203 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: was giving contemporary times, Okay. 204 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:29,559 Speaker 2: He said, I mean, I don't know if he was 205 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 2: ahead of his time, because you know, I wasn't you 206 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:32,839 Speaker 2: know around back then. 207 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: Maybe they were just doing that. But I was like, oh, 208 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: you would have fit in Yes, you would fit twenty four. Yeah, 209 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,319 Speaker 1: he was really trying hard to make himself seem like 210 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:43,959 Speaker 1: he was somebody who he was not. 211 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 2: Okay, But here's the realty. And I spoke with Brittany 212 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 2: about this, and for the record, Brittany absolutely disagreed with 213 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 2: this take that I'm about to share. But I thought 214 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 2: that the reason that he accepted this award is because 215 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 2: he was passing. Okay, because, as she said that he 216 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 2: grew up in Savannah. Yeah, was around the Gulla Geechee folks. 217 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 2: We'll go to the black record store. She completely disagreed. 218 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 2: She said he was from a very prominent family. Everybody 219 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 2: knew his family, everybody knew they were white. But I'm like, 220 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 2: that's exactly what a prominent white family would do. The 221 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 2: mother would sneak off, have her a little black baby 222 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 2: and be happy that it could pass. And he knew. 223 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 2: And black people be clocking people that are passing. They 224 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 2: don't be saying too much. They let them live, but 225 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 2: they're like, I know you're black. 226 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 1: Okay. So two things. One, I looked at a picture 227 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: of him and I did wonder, not even gonna lie. 228 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: I was like, these features be black, Yes they could. 229 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:44,319 Speaker 1: It was giving m a lota Okay. But my question 230 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: for you is if the theory is that he was passing. 231 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: Why would he want to out himself in a way 232 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: by accepting the award as being a colored person. 233 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 2: I think it's just like a little nod, a little wink, 234 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 2: like yeah you saw me, okay, And cause it could 235 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 2: be like ohl, like they think I'm black, they don't 236 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 2: know I'm white, but really they know the truth. 237 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 1: But Brittany said like that wasn't true. 238 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 2: He was kind of one of those white people that 239 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 2: were like hung out with other black musicians, but only 240 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 2: because they were the quote unquote good blacks, and would 241 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 2: say stuff like that, like little problematic things like that 242 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 2: he was the most racist guy out there. But you 243 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 2: know he wasn't no civil rights activist or anything like that, right, 244 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 2: So that was my take on it. That's what I 245 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 2: thought might be going on. But yeah, there's so many 246 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 2: artists that be white and you think they're black. 247 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: But is that on us or is said on them? 248 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: Is that them being performatively black or is that just 249 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: us not understanding that other people can like work within genres. 250 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 2: I don't know, because nobody listening to himinem go think 251 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 2: he's black even though he's in a black genre. Like 252 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 2: no one's going to listen to that and be like, 253 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 2: that's a black man, you know what I'm saying. So 254 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 2: you can be in the genre and still sound white. 255 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: I think that's tough because I mean, there are plenty 256 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: of times when I hear people and I don't know 257 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: what race they are, but you don't know what race 258 00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: they are. 259 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 2: But I think there is a difference between being like, oh, 260 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 2: I can't place this voice versus like, the way this 261 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 2: person talks is like a black person. 262 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: They're affecting a black dialect in their language and black intonation. Yes, 263 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: and that's what mister Mercer was doing, I believe. 264 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 2: So. 265 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I can see that. I mean, yes, he is 266 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: an archetype or a prototype for all of the people 267 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: who are doing that today because there are so many 268 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: people in hip hop who do it. So I think 269 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: there is also an element that the first time you 270 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: hear somebody, unless they're like markedly white, you know what 271 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: I mean, Right, the first time you hear somebody performing rap, 272 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: if they have a voice, even if they aren't putting 273 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: on any sort of affects or dialects, you assume that 274 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: they're black. Because it is a genre that we created 275 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: and we are more prominent in it and more numerous. 276 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 2: But Johnny Mercer's song wasn't a rap song. No, they 277 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 2: thought the Lincoln Group, the All Boys, all African American group, 278 00:15:58,040 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 2: thought he was black. But I do think that it's 279 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 2: probably like something that occurred more during that time, because 280 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 2: now we're like a very celebrity centric society, at least 281 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 2: here in the United States. So if you hear somebody, 282 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 2: you might go, you know, look them up, see who 283 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 2: their kids are, see who their parents are, like, try 284 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 2: to learn all these things about him. But if you 285 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 2: just like hear a guy on the radio, like in 286 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 2: the thirties, you're going to be like, okay, And that's 287 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 2: kind of it. So it might be easier to mistake 288 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 2: people's identities maybe race, maybe gender, and all all types 289 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 2: of things you get confused because you just hear them 290 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 2: on the radio and then go about your day. 291 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: So I'm imagining Mercer as a child listening to records 292 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: and loving them and not having a consciousness around race 293 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: except for probably all the racist things that he was 294 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: starting to be in viute with. But Brittany talked about 295 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: how he listened to race records, and I'm thinking about 296 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: how popular those were So I'm imagining Mercer listening to these, 297 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: falling in love with them, hearing them around the house, 298 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: having people, adults who were in his life, playing this, 299 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: and he starts to sing that way, the same way 300 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: as he heard other people sing. At some point I 301 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: would imagine he developed a consciousness around race. Is it 302 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: okay for him to continue to sing in that style 303 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: of music regardless of race? Or should he have pulled 304 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: back on trying to imitate those people that he might 305 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: have considered people who really influenced the his style of 306 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: singing as he got older and started putting out his 307 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: own records. 308 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 2: I mean it proved okay for him. He went on 309 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 2: to be very successful. That wasn't the only award he 310 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,479 Speaker 2: was winning Chile. So other people liked it, and to 311 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 2: be fair, I haven't you know, went and listened to 312 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 2: his whole catalog. So maybe this is the only song 313 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 2: where he let his little black percentage pop out, you know, 314 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 2: so he could be founding like a regular white man 315 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 2: and all his other discography. I don't know, but yeah, 316 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,400 Speaker 2: it was giving a precursor to Danny lay. 317 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 1: Meme reference for the online girlies. Is that a meme? 318 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 2: Oh, it's a white woman who's pretending to be a 319 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,199 Speaker 2: black woman. A singer, maybe R and B pop, but 320 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 2: he was definitely laying the groundwork for the black fishing. 321 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,399 Speaker 1: So to answer Brittany's question, what does it mean to 322 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: sound black anyway? 323 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:19,439 Speaker 2: I think it's not something that you can really like 324 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 2: quantify with words. Yeah, do you think I sound black? 325 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: No? Well, I feel like that's not the best. 326 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 2: No, it's not. 327 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 1: That's what was funny to me. Yeah. I don't think 328 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: it's something. 329 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 2: That you can truly quantify. And that's why AI will 330 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 2: never replace humans. 331 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 1: I think we have a special lay on it as 332 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 1: black people though. Yeah, I think we know it better 333 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 1: than anybody else what a black person would say or 334 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: would sound like. 335 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,360 Speaker 2: Right, So that's why I'm saying that group that heard 336 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 2: him and then gave him that award, I think they 337 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 2: were really picking up on something that was, you know, 338 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 2: underneath the surface. 339 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: For our last story, we're getting into some no. 340 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 6: No, I will go to jail behind this. 341 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 1: That's after the break. Stay with us. 342 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 6: My name is Tiffany Atwater Lee. I'm the head of 343 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,959 Speaker 6: Research Services at the Atlanta University Center Robert W. Woochef 344 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 6: Libraries Archives Research Center. So I'm gonna tell a story 345 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 6: about the widow of my favorite archable character here at 346 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 6: the aec witch Off Library, and that is Miss Virginia Hope. 347 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 6: Mister Virginia Hope was an organizer and a community activist, 348 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 6: but she was also the wife of the first African 349 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 6: American president of a Morehouse and Atlanta University, doctor John Hope. 350 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 6: After his passing in nineteen thirty six, she did some 351 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 6: interesting things to ensure that the legacy of her husband 352 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 6: was maintained, and that included some controversy with the Atlanta 353 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:01,399 Speaker 6: University Center or the Atlanta University President. So around nineteen 354 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 6: thirty seven, right after the passing of her husband, she 355 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 6: starts to write about getting access to these personal files 356 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 6: that her husband gave her keys to and said one 357 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 6: day you may need these. And so she's writing to 358 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 6: the president of the Board of Trustees, asking can I 359 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 6: get these files? I've gotten some files from his personal secretary, 360 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:26,439 Speaker 6: but I know that there's more, like there has to 361 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 6: be more, and so the Board of Trustees president can't 362 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:32,719 Speaker 6: really help, you know, he's the Board of Trustees president. 363 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 6: And so she decides after about a year and a 364 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 6: half of waiting and really not getting anywhere. She's just 365 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:44,479 Speaker 6: going to take them. So she bypasses the president at 366 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:50,439 Speaker 6: the time, and she goes to the administration building, the 367 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 6: President's office when she knows that both the president his 368 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 6: secretary as well as the former president in the interim 369 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 6: period is not in the city of Atlanta, and she 370 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 6: finds a custodian and she basically says, I left my 371 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 6: person there. Can you help me get in there? And 372 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 6: everybody knows Virginia Hope, she's the former first Lady, so 373 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 6: they let her in. Then they start to get a 374 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 6: little skeptical when they realize she has movers downstairs and 375 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 6: so what the supervisor of the custodian is like, she's 376 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 6: taking file cabinets. So he writes a telegram to the 377 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 6: president of the university, who's rufus Clement at the time, 378 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 6: and it's like Ms. Hope is stealing or not stilling. 379 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 6: He didn't say stealing, he said she's taking these files, 380 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 6: and so Clement stops his trip and hurries back to Atlanta, 381 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 6: and of course the files are missing, and Leginia is ghost. 382 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 6: He cannot find her. He is calling everywhere trying to 383 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:51,719 Speaker 6: find out. Luckily, he finds what moving company she used 384 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 6: and goes to the moving company and says, you know, 385 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 6: I get that she paid for this storage unit, so 386 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 6: you can't give the materials to us, but can you 387 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 6: limit access so she can't get in there until we 388 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 6: find out essentially who owns these materials. So the movie 389 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 6: company is like, sure, we can do that. So in 390 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 6: this time, they're still trying to write to miss Hope 391 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 6: get to understand where she is, and she's not answering anything. 392 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 6: She eventually goes to the movers to try to sort 393 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 6: through these materials herself, and the movers are like, no, 394 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,640 Speaker 6: you can't. You can't look at these files. So then 395 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 6: she calls Clement. In that discussion, which he talks about 396 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,439 Speaker 6: in a correspondence to the President of the Board of Trustees, 397 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 6: he basically says that missus Hope said, I didn't want 398 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 6: to involve you in this because they had nothing to 399 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 6: do with you. It was before your presidency, and these 400 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 6: files belonged to us or to me and my family, 401 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 6: and so he has said, you know, we can go 402 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 6: through these files together and look through them and anything 403 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 6: that belongs to the university. We keep anything that you 404 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,439 Speaker 6: need you have, and so she's like, no, no, I 405 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 6: will go to jail behind this and I will lift 406 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 6: everything out on the stand and for everyone to see it. 407 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 6: If AU doesn't want that, you all need to go 408 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 6: ahead and let me go through these materials myself. And 409 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 6: so he's like no, He's still trying to compromise, and 410 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 6: so at one point she says, I'll give you back 411 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 6: the files if you change all the locks and you're 412 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 6: the only person that can have the key, and so 413 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 6: he's like, why would I do that when the only 414 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 6: other people who would have access to this are the 415 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 6: people who already had access to this, including your husband's 416 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 6: former secretary. And so Virginia doesn't like that, so she 417 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 6: basically stops talking to them again. So he's writing to 418 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,679 Speaker 6: the board of trustees and is like, we need to 419 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 6: get these files back, but we don't want to cause 420 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 6: a controversy because that could do a disservice to our 421 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:49,919 Speaker 6: institution as well as the reputation of Mishope, And so 422 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,679 Speaker 6: word starts to get out. There's even a telegram from 423 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 6: the Pittsburgh Courier. They write to Clymt and is like, 424 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,639 Speaker 6: we heard y'all about the sue Virginia Hope, what's going on? 425 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 1: With that. 426 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 6: So they're going through this process and then someone has 427 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,360 Speaker 6: an idea stop Virginia's checks, don't let her get any 428 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 6: pension from her husband. And so when they stop the checks, 429 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 6: Virginia of course pops back up and so now she's 430 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,160 Speaker 6: willing to talk and say, okay, how can we get 431 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 6: these files? And so, long story short, they decided to 432 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 6: go ahead and have it where Leginia Son, the former 433 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,959 Speaker 6: secretary of her husband, as well as the President Rufus 434 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 6: Clement go through these records and divide up the materials. 435 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,439 Speaker 6: Those that belong to doctor Hope goes back to his family, 436 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,640 Speaker 6: those that belong to AU stay with AU. After all 437 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 6: of this, AU thinks that this was a victory. They're 438 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 6: able to maintain the relationship with Missus Hope, They're able 439 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 6: to not have any controversy, get out and get the 440 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 6: files back. However, Virginia doesn't feel that way, and so 441 00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 6: she writes to a huge benefactor of AU and says, essentially, 442 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 6: I just lost the will to fight, and so I 443 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,640 Speaker 6: just still feel like justice wasn't served and I don't 444 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 6: have all of my materials. And the reason why this 445 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 6: is such an important thing that I found was because 446 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 6: all of this stuff was inaccessible. This was in a 447 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 6: huge envelope marked with red stamps confidential, confidential, confidential. It 448 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 6: said not to be used or looked at unless under 449 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 6: the permission of the president of Atlanta University. And I 450 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 6: found this back in let's say, maybe twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, 451 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 6: so you know, Atlanta University doesn't exist. It consolidated with 452 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 6: Clark College back in nineteen eighty eight. So I'm like, 453 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,159 Speaker 6: what is this? So I'm looking through it, and essentially 454 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 6: what I believe I have discovered are files that eventually 455 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 6: become the John and Legenia Hope collection that is accessible 456 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,400 Speaker 6: on microphone, that we have that not only their personal 457 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 6: relationships and personal papers, but also that of the institutions 458 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 6: in which and organizations in which they were active members in. 459 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 6: We also have materials related to the AU presidential records. 460 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 6: And so to me, what this really signifies is one 461 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:22,399 Speaker 6: the ability for institutions to see humanity and understand this 462 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 6: woman essentially just wanted her husband's papers, but also we're 463 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 6: an organization. You can't just be still in our papers, right. 464 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 6: And then there's also the understanding of at that time, 465 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 6: this is nineteen thirty seven, nineteen thirty eight. Historically, black 466 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 6: institutions are already kind of given side eyes, right their 467 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 6: thought of as not being equipped or professional and things 468 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 6: like of that nature. So if this got out, this 469 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,360 Speaker 6: really disturbed the reputation that they have been building. I mean, 470 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,719 Speaker 6: a woman literally walked out with two file cabinets from 471 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 6: the President's office. But also I really like it because 472 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 6: it kind of just shows, you know, Legia Hope has 473 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 6: some position. Again, most importantly, it's providing access to these 474 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 6: stories because they're everyone. Everyone has a story, maybe not 475 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 6: where they stole papers from an administration building, but taking 476 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 6: matters in their own hand and getting what they want, 477 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 6: but also preserving the legacy of their loved ones for 478 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 6: those who come after us. 479 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 2: Okay, so put yourself in Mishope shoes. Okay, would you 480 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 2: be ready to go to jail about some papers by 481 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 2: your your late husband's papers? 482 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 1: You know, I want to believe that I would. So 483 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 1: I don't know if me saying yes I would would 484 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 1: be the honest thing, Like I'm trying to imagine being 485 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 1: in that time as well in doing it. But I 486 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 1: want to say that I would you it. I feel 487 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: like I would. So you are still from the university. 488 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,120 Speaker 1: I feel like I would, I'm my God, just because 489 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 1: I know how like important my family's papers that I 490 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: do have are to me now. I think because of 491 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 1: the perspective that I have now, like I have so 492 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 1: many of my mom's papers and she's not anymore. I 493 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: cherish those papers. So I'm like wondering the links that 494 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: I would go to to get them now, dealing with 495 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: administrations and official things. I don't know that to be truthful, 496 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 1: you know, whether I would do it, but because I 497 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: do care about having papers, and I like collect old things, 498 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: you know, I like to collect old things. I collect 499 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: old things of people that I don't even know, So 500 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,640 Speaker 1: I feel like I might with asterisks maybe, well, what did. 501 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 2: You think the papers would be like in like more 502 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 2: I don't want to say, like safer hands, but maybe 503 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,360 Speaker 2: more like, I don't know, secure hands with the university, 504 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 2: because the university is gonna outlive you, and you know, 505 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 2: maybe even outlive anybody in your family who would care 506 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 2: to keep up with these papers. 507 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a valid point. I think from 508 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: a sentimental perspective, not a logical one, though I might 509 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 1: want to have them in my. 510 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 2: Hands because I was asking Tiffany, I was like, why 511 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 2: was she going to work for these papers? Like I 512 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 2: don't think I'd be doing all that, you know, I 513 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 2: truly don't think I would be doing all that. I 514 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 2: was like, what was she doing? Like why was she 515 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 2: doing this? So you know, where did these academic streets 516 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 2: are that within these papers was evidence that he had 517 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 2: a mistress or two. 518 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,959 Speaker 1: Between that story and the one you gave at the 519 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: beginning about Mercer passing you, you really want some extra 520 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 1: drama in these situations. You want a whole reality TV show. 521 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: It's humans. Like that's the thing with archives. 522 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 2: You think like, oh, these people are you know, these 523 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 2: you know just historical figures. These are people and they 524 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 2: were into some drama, and you gotta think like this 525 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 2: upstanding lady, you know, well known in the community, well respected, 526 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 2: you talk about I'll go to jail about this. Maybe 527 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 2: why because you didn't want people know about them mistresses? 528 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: So how did they already know about the mistresses? Though? 529 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: So if this is word on the street, she just 530 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 1: didn't want to have confirmation of them. 531 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 2: No, we're in the academic streets. So people who like 532 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 2: research after the five right, you know, if your man 533 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 2: got a mistress because it was a mix of university 534 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 2: papers and personal papers. 535 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: That's one idea. I think I have no idea if 536 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 1: that's true or not. But do you think that she 537 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: would still go to those same lengths just for that, 538 00:29:58,240 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: Like I don't know if we also know that the 539 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: was Luginia's character, like she wouldn't have wanted that out there, 540 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: that was something that was important to her. But do 541 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: you think that she would have gone to those lengths 542 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: to cover up personal misgivings like that, Like that would 543 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: have justified her doing that still? 544 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I don't know her personality, but just 545 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 2: kind of thinking of like the time and like, you know, 546 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 2: they're high society people and it's just like embarrassing. So 547 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 2: I can definitely see this prim proper lady kind of 548 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 2: being like, you know, you're. 549 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 1: Still mourning your husband just died. 550 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 2: You're like, I don't want everybody know like all his 551 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 2: business like that, and then you know, by the transit 552 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 2: of property my business. 553 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: I was imagining the whole Mission Impossible theme in my 554 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: head in the background of her going inside. I mean, 555 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: she didn't even do a that she was basically just 556 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: walked in and got them cabinet and said, can you 557 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: let me? It's social engineering. People do it all the time. Yeah, 558 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: just like ask for what you want. 559 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 2: And then they were like, oh no, she's breaking the 560 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 2: law now, but too scared to actually stop her. 561 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: So hey, I left something in the room. 562 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 2: You know something, But you don't play if like someone 563 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 2: is afraid to stop you and you're clearly doing something wrong, 564 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 2: you send it a telegram instead. 565 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: She was on those people's heads. 566 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 2: But yeah, now that which your library at the AAC 567 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 2: has her husband's papers and her papers, so I'm sure 568 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 2: there's there's more tea and drama throughout those archives to 569 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 2: be discovered. 570 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: But people can't access those papers, no they can. 571 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, sometimes when you go to the archives, you can 572 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 2: tell that no one has seen or like looked in 573 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 2: these boxes since they've been put in the boxes. Man 574 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 2: Tiffany even said she found the folder and it was 575 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 2: like wrapped up like top secret, like you know. 576 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: Do not read. It's just like I gotta look, I 577 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: gotta see what's going on. Blew the dust stuff got 578 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: the asbestis going. Yeah. 579 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's so many things to still be discovered, 580 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 2: even if they're in archives, and you know, catalogs and everything, 581 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,239 Speaker 2: and people just like don't look or like don't put 582 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 2: two and two together. 583 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: So yeah, they're available. I liked this story because it 584 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: feels like it's kind of a microcosm of what you're 585 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: saying here, is that if you go through the archives, 586 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 1: you can find all these stories. And it's also about 587 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: a person's archive of their life, and we get to 588 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: see how Lucinia really cared for that archive, whether or 589 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: not it was for scandalous reasons, like she cared for 590 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: an archive and for like protecting the legacy of his 591 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: work and the things that he said in his own words. 592 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: So I really like this story for that perspective that 593 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: she gave us. 594 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, like even if you don't agree with her methods, 595 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 2: even if she broke the law, Yeah you know, it 596 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 2: was passionate. 597 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 1: Yeah it was. And sometimes passion trump's all. So the 598 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: ends always justifies the means. Okay, ask for forgiveness, not permission. No, 599 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 1: that's right. 600 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 2: So next time you find yourself in an old library 601 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 2: or museum, take a moment to slow down and really explore. 602 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 2: You never know what quirky, poignant, or downright bizarre stories 603 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 2: archives might hold. After all, as these authors and archivists 604 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 2: have shown us the most fascinating histories are often the 605 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 2: ones that have been tucked away patiently awaiting the right 606 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 2: person to uncover them and share them with the world. 607 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 2: And now it's time for role credits, the segment where 608 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 2: we give credit to a person, place, or thing that 609 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 2: we've encountered during the week eves. Who are what would 610 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 2: you like to give credit to? 611 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: I would like to give credit to the Black Archives 612 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: in Amsterdam. I was only able to visit them for 613 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 1: a little while when I was in Amsterdam recently, but 614 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: I got to look through the books that they had 615 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 1: a lot of them were in Dutch, so I could 616 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: not read them. But they had a nice exhibit up there, 617 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 1: and we're very friendly and yeah, they have loss of 618 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 1: cool stuff to see and I think if you go 619 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: with the group you can get a tour of the archives. 620 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 1: The archives are not available for research, but it's nice 621 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: to walk in. I think they do different exhibits there 622 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: from time to time and host lot of events that 623 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 1: are super interesting, so I like to give a shout 624 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: out to them. 625 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 2: I'd like to give credit to greeting cards, which is 626 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 2: something you often find in archives. I used to be 627 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 2: really into making greeting cards and giving them, and I 628 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 2: was like, that's a practice that I want to pick up, 629 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 2: not making them. Actually, I just want to pick up 630 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 2: giving greeting cards for like different occasions, you know, like 631 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 2: thinking of you, happy birthday. 632 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 1: Of course, just hey, we're pals, like let's keep in 633 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:32,919 Speaker 1: touch type. 634 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 6: Ye. 635 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: It's the physical mail of it all. 636 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 2: Whenever I get mail, it is junk mail and I 637 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:38,799 Speaker 2: am angry that I've gotten it, or it's a bill. 638 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,760 Speaker 2: You don't want those coupons. I don't want those coupons. 639 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:43,359 Speaker 2: I don't be going to bow Jangles. I don't need 640 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,399 Speaker 2: a Bogo thank you. But knowing that someone like sat down, 641 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,760 Speaker 2: thought of you, got a stamp put. 642 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 1: It in the mail is really nice. 643 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 2: So I think I want to get back into the 644 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 2: practice of sending greeting cards. 645 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 1: Cool, and we will see you next week. Bye. Hi. 646 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. 647 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,240 Speaker 1: This episode was written by Eves Jeffco and Katie Mitchell. 648 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 1: It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us 649 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 1: on Instagram at on Themeshow. You can also send us 650 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:21,919 Speaker 1: an email at Hello at on Theme dot show head 651 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:23,879 Speaker 1: to on themet Show to check out the show notes 652 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 653 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.