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Speaker 1: Call zone media.

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Speaker 2: And we're back. This is part two of behind the

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Speaker 2: bastards on Radovan Karajic. And I know what everyone's been asking,

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Speaker 2: at least everyone watching on the Netflix since the first episode,

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Speaker 2: probably on the subreddit has been going crazy over like

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Speaker 2: Roberts in a new room. Why is Robert in a

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Speaker 2: new room? And like, guys, Look, it's nothing crazy. I'm

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Speaker 2: not on the run from anywhere, right? Obviously, I haven't

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Speaker 2: committed a series of horrible crimes like Jamie that I've

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Speaker 2: had to go into hiding over. I'm just in a

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Speaker 2: different room.

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Speaker 1: This is okay.

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Speaker 3: Jamie.

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Speaker 1: You're deflecting. You're deflecting. And what happens when you deflect

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Speaker 1: and accuse me of your crimes is that I don't

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Speaker 1: hear the end of it for, I think this might be,

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Speaker 1: for half a decade. Decade. Not a week goes by

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Speaker 1: that there isn't some neckbeard side-eyeing me in the grocery store.

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Speaker 2: Because of that ax thing, yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I love each and every one of them, and

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Speaker 1: I'm so nice.

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Speaker 2: I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 1: Oh man i think i weirdly got it the worst

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Speaker 1: in pittsburgh somehow yeah that makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Actually i got a lot of pittsburgh fans a lot

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Speaker 2: of people standing up for the show in pittsburgh the yinzers.

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Speaker 1: Were really shaking in their boots when when i came

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Speaker 1: around look where you know the so where's your where's

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Speaker 1: your secret room at i think.

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Speaker 2: It's underneath yeah Yeah. It's underneath. Okay.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I bought, actually own the Denver airport now. Power bills

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Speaker 2: are eating me alive. Yeah. It was a lot cheaper

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Speaker 2: than you'd expect.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Love your horse.

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Speaker 2: Love the horse statue. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I do.

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Speaker 2: That's what really sold me on it too, actually. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: We've been talking about Radovan Karadzic, who at this point

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Speaker 2: in the story is a psychiatrist who has been slightly

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Speaker 2: disgraced for his criminal activity, maybe informed on his friends

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Speaker 2: for the regime. And yeah, is eyeing the coming disillusion

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Speaker 2: of Yugoslavia and being like, how can I make this

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Speaker 2: work for me?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 1: It is interesting that he ends part one basically just

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Speaker 1: as kind of like a white-collar criminal. He likes poems.

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Speaker 1: He's starting to get some ideas.

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Speaker 2: Shitty dad.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. He's like flopped at a couple things. I'm curious.

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Speaker 1: He's a fed, but many such white-collar criminals.

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Speaker 2: He's a little bit of a fed. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: But, yeah.

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Speaker 2: If you had to guess what political party in our

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Speaker 2: systems A guy like this who, like, believes some weird

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Speaker 2: things about, like, natural healing and, like, magic and has

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Speaker 2: committed a series of white-collar crimes and may be informed

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Speaker 2: on people for the government. If you wanted to guess

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Speaker 2: what party in, like, the U.S. he would join, right,

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Speaker 2: to start his political career, what would you guess?

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Speaker 1: Oh, gosh. I mean, there's a strong whiff of upper-middle-class

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Speaker 1: centrist to that kind of behavior, right?

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Speaker 2: Not a centrist.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, he's a dictator.

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Speaker 2: What's the kooky, what party?

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Speaker 1: Is he like a libertarian kind of guy?

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Speaker 2: No, no.

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Speaker 1: I'm getting like Maha vibes.

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Speaker 2: He joins the Green Party. There's an actual Green Party.

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Speaker 2: Like it is the Green Party in Yugoslavia that he joins.

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Speaker 2: And it's kind of the same as our Green Party,

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Speaker 2: as far as I can tell. And that it's all

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Speaker 2: the people who are into weird woo bullshit, right? They

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Speaker 2: love trees and not taking medicine that works. Those are

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Speaker 2: the two big uniting factors of the Green Party, both

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Speaker 2: here and over there.

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Speaker 1: Knowing that he loves trees is kind of the one

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Speaker 1: sincere thing I feel like I truly.

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Speaker 2: Know about this man. He loves trees.

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Speaker 1: He was pissed about those oaks. And you know what?

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Speaker 1: I think he was right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and he would have been a Jill Stein voter.

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Speaker 2: So I don't know why having a nutty Green Party

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Speaker 2: is endemic to democracy, but as soon as Yugoslavia starts

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Speaker 2: to get the slightest bit of democracy, they're like, well,

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Speaker 2: we got to have a party for the kooks, right?

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Speaker 2: We got to have our crank party.

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Speaker 1: They got to go somewhere.

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Speaker 2: They got to go somewhere. And it's going to be

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Speaker 2: a fucking Green Party. So he joins the Green Party first. Okay. Now,

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Speaker 2: as historian Robert Donia explains, in the late 1980s, before

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Speaker 2: communism fell, Yugoslavians began experimenting with political parties. And this, quote,

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Speaker 2: represented more of an artistic performance than a practical party. Because, again,

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Speaker 2: you don't really have democracy yet, but people are allowed

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Speaker 2: to play act it. And it is kind of play

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Speaker 2: acting at this point. They're sort of in the same

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Speaker 2: way that like kids play with guns before they're old

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Speaker 2: enough to join the army. Right. Like they're playing with

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Speaker 2: politics before they get to have their first elections in

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Speaker 2: Yugoslavia a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Right. But he's getting I mean, he's not super young

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Speaker 1: at this point.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: Like, I mean, he's a middle aged man.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: He's had a full career pretty much and done some crimes.

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Speaker 1: And he's served time. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: He's done some time.

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Speaker 1: There's a really depressing like one of those like memes

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Speaker 1: in there where it's like it's never too late.

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Speaker 2: It's never too late. You could be a dictator. Julius

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Speaker 2: Caesar was just some dipshit like fucking side act in

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Speaker 2: Roman politics until he was a middle aged man. You know,

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Speaker 2: there are late bloomers out. What I'm saying is if

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Speaker 2: you're 45 and you're thinking life has passed you by,

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Speaker 2: you could still commit a genocide, my friend. I believe

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Speaker 2: in you. I believe in you. Probably don't. But you could,

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Speaker 2: is what I'm saying. I'm not saying you should, but

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Speaker 2: you could, you know?

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Speaker 1: You could. I mean, look, did we think 10 years

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Speaker 1: ago you would own the Denver airport? Certainly not. But

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Speaker 1: here we are.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, so yeah, the Greens become blind to this holding

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Speaker 2: place in early party politics in Yugoslavia for the counterculture.

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Speaker 2: They were environmentalists first and foremost. One of the first

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Speaker 2: activist campaigns Radovan participated in was the They go out

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Speaker 2: and they cover the limbs of acacia trees with plastic

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Speaker 2: bags as like a protest against plastics, right? It's a

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Speaker 2: very 80s environmentalist campaign.

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Speaker 1: That's kind of sweet.

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Speaker 2: Sweet, yeah, yeah. Hearts are in the right place.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're like, okay. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So far, it seems pretty far from genocide. Radevan and

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Speaker 2: his fellow Greens were also bound together by an interest

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Speaker 2: in what we might call folk medicine, right? This includes

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Speaker 2: a mix of like these traditional remedies that people like

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Speaker 2: the Karajiks grew up with in the mountains, as well

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Speaker 2: as weird spiritual beliefs about like nature that were pretty

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Speaker 2: rooted in Serbian identity. But in a failing communist state,

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Speaker 2: Belief in what I prefer to call quack remedies was

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Speaker 2: also political. So the people who believe in natural medicine

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Speaker 2: and shit are also kind of dissidents to the communist regime,

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Speaker 2: because that's very much not a communist sort of thing

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Speaker 2: in this period of time, right? I want to quote

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Speaker 2: from a 2009 New York Times article by Jack Hitt,

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Speaker 2: who writes, quote, In communist Yugoslavia, alternative medicine was suppressed,

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Speaker 2: along with all anti-science superstitions. including, in the eyes of

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Speaker 2: the communists, the Serbian Orthodox Church. In Serbia, then, the

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Speaker 2: politics of alternative medicine became a haven for right-wing anti-communists,

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Speaker 2: an expression of ancient Balkan heritage, right? So the fact

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Speaker 2: that they're into this stuff, I mean, we've seen today

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Speaker 2: that there's a lot of interplay between our fascists and

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Speaker 2: the alternative health movement, because if you're willing to discard

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Speaker 2: a big chunk of modernity, you might be willing to

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Speaker 2: discard other parts of it, right?

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 1: And it's interesting how, you know, for, for at least

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Speaker 1: the people at the top of that movement, they'll always

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Speaker 1: have access to modernity when it, when it suits them.

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Speaker 2: When they really want to, when they need a vaccine.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: How unfortunate that we can sort of like tell the

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Speaker 1: story of American fascism, at least in the last 25

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Speaker 1: years through the lens of Gwyneth Paltrow. We don't love

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Speaker 1: to think about it this way, but it could be

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Speaker 1: done and it's on the table. If you just have

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Speaker 1: a loose three years to write that dissertation.

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Speaker 2: And I, This also is there's kind of a dark

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Speaker 2: lesson in here for some of us on the left,

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Speaker 2: because I hear a lot of like people talking about

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Speaker 2: what is to be done about Maha and like all

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Speaker 2: of the millions that are going to die because this

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Speaker 2: bullshit and like, well, this needs to be the government

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Speaker 2: needs to crack down more on this. And I agree,

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Speaker 2: like you shouldn't be able to market things as medicine

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Speaker 2: that aren't medicine. But the story of Yugoslavia shows even

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Speaker 2: when you've got a really like very strong, like state

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Speaker 2: that is capable of repressing stuff like this it doesn't

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Speaker 2: last as soon as the repression ends people go right

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Speaker 2: back to it and it becomes stronger than it had

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Speaker 2: been before so it's there's not an easy fix in

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Speaker 2: terms of people believing nonsense we've never really figured out

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Speaker 2: how to make people believe in reality you can't force

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Speaker 2: it so I don't know what we're supposed to do

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Speaker 2: actually No.

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Speaker 1: So I wish I knew. How many more family members

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Speaker 1: would we have if we knew that answer? Yeah. But

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Speaker 1: so in Yugoslavia, they're very against this. So this is counterculture, basically.

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Speaker 2: Counterculture. And it's specifically anti-communist counterculture, right? I see.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: Karadzic begins bringing in, while he's in the Green Party,

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Speaker 2: he starts organizing with them first, but he also starts

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Speaker 2: gathering with some of his friends, some of the people

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Speaker 2: who hadn't you know, cut bait with him after the

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Speaker 2: 1968 protest movement. I guess the guys who didn't think

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Speaker 2: he'd been an informer. And he starts gathering together some

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Speaker 2: of these Serb nationalists to him, too. And they start

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Speaker 2: talking about, like, maybe the Green Party isn't going to

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Speaker 2: take us all that much further. And the thing that binds.

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Speaker 1: These guys— How many times have we had that conversation?

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Speaker 2: How many times has that happened? The thing that kind

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Speaker 2: of binds.

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Speaker 1: All of these— Guys, I don't think Jill's going to

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Speaker 1: make it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if this is going to do

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Speaker 2: the trick.

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Speaker 1: Wait, guys, I don't know if this is going to work.

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Speaker 2: The thing that kind of binds them all together is

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Speaker 2: a rejection of Yugoslav nationalism and of communism. And these

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Speaker 2: men are Serbian ethno-nationalists. or at least that's what they

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Speaker 2: become over the course of the next several years. Maybe

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Speaker 2: they don't fully start there, but they are going to

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Speaker 2: get really pilled on that. I think as they all

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Speaker 2: start hanging out and realizing the things they have in common,

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Speaker 2: they get increasingly violent towards the idea of anyone else

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Speaker 2: existing in the area, right?

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And increasingly, they start getting angry again, too, about World

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Speaker 2: War II. They never stopped being angry about the genocide

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Speaker 2: in World War II, right? But there's a lot of,

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Speaker 2: we never paid the Muslims back. We never paid the

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Speaker 2: Croats back for what they did to us, right? That's

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Speaker 2: also bubbling up here. So there's some ugly stuff being discussed.

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Speaker 1: In that way, was it like the time that Tito

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Speaker 1: was in power, did that sort of like stave back

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Speaker 1: that sort of eventual processing? Okay, that makes sense.

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Speaker 2: But again, it suppresses it. It doesn't get rid of it, right?

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And now it's like you're a generation removed from

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Speaker 1: that as well. Yep. Yep.

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Speaker 2: So in 1990, a group of Bosniak, these are, again,

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Speaker 2: the Bosnian Muslims, center-right nationalists formed the SDA, or Party

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Speaker 2: of Democratic Action. And this is a majority Muslim party,

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Speaker 2: the SDA, but they're also a secular party, right? They

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Speaker 2: get described a lot as like Islamists. They were not,

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Speaker 2: or are not, because they're still around. They support a

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Speaker 2: broadly secular state. And they support an independent Bosnia, right,

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Speaker 2: that wants to get closer to NATO and to the EU, right?

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Speaker 2: That's sort of like what the SDA wants. So they're

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Speaker 2: supportive of the right that Bosnia has to secede from Yugoslavia.

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Speaker 2: And they are Muslim, but they're not looking to start

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Speaker 2: like a strict, like theocratic regime. Now, Radovan would not

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Speaker 2: interpret things this way. He would later claim to his biographer,

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Speaker 2: Jessica Stern, that the SDA were, quote, a bunch of

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Speaker 2: Muslim extremists creating a militant Islamic party. Again, that's not

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Speaker 2: really true, right? There's some bits of that at the edges,

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Speaker 2: but that's not really largely accurate. But it is true

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Speaker 2: that a lot of Serb nationalists believe that, and for

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Speaker 2: the same reason that a lot of people in Texas

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Speaker 2: think that, like, Sharia law is right around the corner

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Speaker 2: if they let there be a mosque in town, right?

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: Sure. Racism. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I was like, there's a word for that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a word for that. it's also true that

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Speaker 2: like Radovan is working tirelessly at this point to convince

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Speaker 2: them that the SDA are radical Islamists, right? And he

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Speaker 2: is successful in creating what he called a sense of

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Speaker 2: paranoia that allows him and his friends to leave the

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Speaker 2: Greens and create a new political party, the SDS, which

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Speaker 2: Jessica Stern describes as not only pro-Serb, but anti-Muslim and anti-Croat, right?

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Speaker 2: So Now we've got a party that's not just, you know,

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Speaker 2: in favor of some of these like traditional Serb values,

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Speaker 2: but we're specifically hate the Bosniaks and the Croats, right?

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Speaker 1: How quickly is this happening? Because it's like, this is, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Because they're, I mean, they're, part of what it is,

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Speaker 2: is they're looking at what's going to happen next when

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Speaker 2: we all split up. And if you're a Serb who

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Speaker 2: lives in Bosnia and you see these Bosniak Muslims creating

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Speaker 2: a party that represents the majority of the people in

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Speaker 2: the area, and they're not Serb, you're like, well, they're

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Speaker 2: going to oppress us, right? Maybe there'll be another genocide.

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Speaker 2: So we have to get ready to take power to

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Speaker 2: stop them from fucking us over, right?

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of that going on, a lot of

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Speaker 2: that in the air, not just with the, and there's

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Speaker 2: other ethnic groups. I'm very much simplifying the breakup of Yugoslavia.

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Speaker 2: And this is where I get into an issue I

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Speaker 2: have with Jessica's book, My War Criminal, beyond the title,

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Speaker 2: because it is the source of more detail on Radovan's

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Speaker 2: family and personal life than anyone else has.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: But she also, by her own admission, falls for his

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Speaker 2: spell several times and she does not push back on

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Speaker 2: him enough. She doesn't really push back on him.

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Speaker 1: Consider the title. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: She spends a lot of time talking to this guy.

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Speaker 2: She doesn't push back on him describing the SDS as

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Speaker 2: an Islamist party. And she also describes him as such, writing,

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Speaker 2: Karadzic did not seem to have a personal animus to

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Speaker 2: Muslims prior to the war, even though by his admission,

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Speaker 2: the party he formed in 1990 was framed in opposition

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Speaker 2: to Muslims and Croats. It's also true that he was,

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Speaker 2: as she points out, the godfather to the son of

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Speaker 2: a celebrated Bosniak poet, and that pre-war he had extensive

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Speaker 2: personal connections to Muslims. But my read is that by

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Speaker 2: the end of the 80s, He has decided the road

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Speaker 2: to Serb political power requires framing Muslims as the enemy

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Speaker 2: and as the other, right? He just tries to keep

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Speaker 2: this hidden at first. And so he's not fully admitting

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Speaker 2: to this, but it seems pretty clear to me. I

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Speaker 2: feel like the.

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Speaker 1: Follow-up questions kind of write themselves.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And there's a couple of issues I have with

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Speaker 2: some of her framing. She does this because there will

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Speaker 2: be this claim that like, well, you know, Al Qaeda

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Speaker 2: got started. There were like proto early Al Qaeda offshoots

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Speaker 2: in Bosnia. And the truth is that like, well, some

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Speaker 2: Mujahideen wound up fighting there because of the things that

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Speaker 2: are going to happen during this genocide. And people mistakenly

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Speaker 2: believe the Mujahideen were the, it's the same thing people

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Speaker 2: wrongly state about like Afghanistan, like, oh, you know, we

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Speaker 2: actually really like funded and built Al Qaeda. And it

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Speaker 2: was like, no, we built a different group of people

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Speaker 2: who got overthrown by the Taliban and then invited, Al

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Speaker 2: Qaeda in, it's more complicated than that, right? It's not that. Right.

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Speaker 2: Hey everyone, Robert here. And at the risk of being

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Speaker 2: accused of like being an apologist for stuff, I wanted

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Speaker 2: to make sure I made it a little bit more

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Speaker 2: of an extensive note about some of the extremist Islamist

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Speaker 2: groups that swarmed into Bosnia because a number did, including

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Speaker 2: Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda had like a regional franchise in

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Speaker 2: Bosnia as a result of the war and the genocide.

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Speaker 2: Although even some of these guys who are with al-Qaeda

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Speaker 2: should not all be seen as like the same as

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Speaker 2: the al-Qaeda that would come later. One influential person who's

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Speaker 2: in Bosnia during this time fighting with the Mujahideen is

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Speaker 2: a dude named Ayman Deen. Deen was part of a

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Speaker 2: Mujahideen brigade that is accused of a number of pretty

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Speaker 2: horrible war crimes after the battle for Vazuka. And after

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Speaker 2: the war, he was recruited by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and

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Speaker 2: wound up going and being a part of al-Qaeda. But

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Speaker 2: then he got sort of pilled against al-Qaeda as a

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Speaker 2: result of their justification of attacks that killed civilian bystanders,

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Speaker 2: and he became a double agent for MI6 and spent

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Speaker 2: years infiltrating al-Qaeda before he was exposed. So even when

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Speaker 2: we're talking about some of these extremist figures who do

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Speaker 2: come to Bosnia, they're all not– you can't all paint

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Speaker 2: anyone who is like an extremist Islamist fighting against a

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Speaker 2: genocide as the same as the different kind of extremist

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Speaker 2: groups that came after because they're just not identical. But

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Speaker 2: there are some people who are also like Islamist, like

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Speaker 2: Mujahideen types who wind up fighting in Bosnia because Muslims

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Speaker 2: are being slaughtered, right? So it's messy, but it's wrong

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Speaker 2: to say that like, well, you know, the Serbs were

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Speaker 2: trying to stop Al-Qaeda because they fucking weren't. But that

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Speaker 2: is how some people will like depict that today, right?

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: So he does try to keep things hidden, his biases

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Speaker 2: hidden initially in the summer of 1990 when he's He's

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Speaker 2: organizing and still trying to, like, reach political power, he

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Speaker 2: tells the journalists. The Serbs and Muslims do not have

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Speaker 2: conflicting interests, and he denies the existence of Islamic fundamentalism

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Speaker 2: in Bosnia. But within his party, anti-Muslim rhetoric is already prevalent,

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Speaker 2: and after Yugoslavia holds ill-fated elections in November of 1990

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Speaker 2: and the Bosniaks start pushing for Bosnian independence, Karadzic starts

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Speaker 2: holding large public speeches warning about the coming Islamic threat.

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Speaker 2: Because we're talking about the Balkans, shit's a lot more

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Speaker 2: complex than this. One thing that's happening is that over

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Speaker 2: in Croatia, there's also a nationalist movement. The Serbian Democratic

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Speaker 2: Party had been created in Croatia by a Serb nationalist

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Speaker 2: who was also a psychiatrist named Raskovic. What is with

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Speaker 2: the psychiatrist? I don't know, but there's two of them

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Speaker 2: and they form like identical parties, one in Bosnia and

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Speaker 2: one in Croatia, right? And Raskovic and Radovan Karadzic are

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Speaker 2: like friends and are very much like working together. These

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Speaker 2: are movements that are allied, right? And the SDS, as

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Speaker 2: it came to be known, was born under the guns

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Speaker 2: of the thing that they're protesting in Croatia is this

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Speaker 2: fascist adjacent Croatian nationalist party has risen up in Croatia

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Speaker 2: to advocate for Croatian independence. And they're using a lot

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Speaker 2: of symbols and, like, even, like, repeating some of the

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Speaker 2: politics of the old fascist Croatian state that had existed

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Speaker 2: in World War II, which scares a lot of Serbs

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Speaker 2: for reasons that are very understandable, right?

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, due to recent history. Yeah, that makes sense.

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Speaker 2: And so this is not just a matter of like, oh,

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Speaker 2: Radovan's inventing stuff to scare them. No, they lived through

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Speaker 2: a genocide. A lot of the survivors are still alive

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Speaker 2: and they see people organizing in Croatia who are trying

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Speaker 2: to like using like the logos and shit of the

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Speaker 2: old fascist party. And that provides a lot of fear

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Speaker 2: and a lot of motivation to believe, oh, we may

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Speaker 2: have to clear them out of all these areas.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: To defend ourselves.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So there are real reasons to be afraid. And he

390
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Speaker 2: is very much drumming up additional fear. Right. You know,

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Speaker 2: in what would always have been any time a country

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Speaker 2: is breaking apart and going to be dividing along ethnic lines,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be a lot of fear of horrible ethnic.

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Speaker 2: I don't know of any case where something like that's

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Speaker 2: happened and a lot of people haven't died. Look at

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Speaker 2: the partition of India.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: In Pakistan.

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Speaker 2: You know, like it is always a pretty fucked up thing.

400
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Speaker 2: When shit like this goes down. So it's not weird

401
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Speaker 2: and nobody, I don't want to act like the Serbs

402
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Speaker 2: have no reason to be like on edge, right? There's

403
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Speaker 2: a very good reason to be on edge.

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Speaker 1: Like one-ish generations removed from a quarter of the population

405
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Speaker 1: being wiped out. Yeah, yeah. I, too, would be on edge.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's me not understanding the region well enough, but

407
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Speaker 1: it is fascinating that... I guess so. But that it

408
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Speaker 1: ends up being this guy feels very... You know, this

409
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Speaker 1: is a role that was going to be taken by

410
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Speaker 1: someone and it ends up being him because it's like

411
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Speaker 1: it's more of a like a circumstance that requires a

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Speaker 1: bad actor like this. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And my read is that he knew someone like this

414
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Speaker 2: is going to wind up existing. It just has to happen.

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Speaker 1: So why not me?

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Speaker 2: It's inevitable. It might as well be me because then

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Speaker 2: I can make a buck off it. It might as

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Speaker 2: well be the sports psychiatrist.

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Speaker 1: Right, right.

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Speaker 2: And Raskovic, the other psychiatrist who's organizing the Serb Nationalists

421
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Speaker 2: in Croatia, is a bit different, right? And his argument,

422
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Speaker 2: because he has a real fear. He's trying to stop,

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Speaker 2: he would say, he was trying to stop ethno-nationalist violence.

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Speaker 2: Because his belief was that the years of communist rule

425
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Speaker 2: had just suppressed the trauma left over from the war,

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Speaker 2: which I think is accurate. And he feared that if

427
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Speaker 2: the state suddenly fell as it was about to, there

428
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Speaker 2: would be ethnic madness. That's the term he used. As

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Speaker 2: Stern explains, The sudden release of these memories could lead

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Speaker 2: Serbs to submit to the collective will of the mob

431
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Speaker 2: and massive acts of revenge, Raskovic warned. Even a dangerous

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Speaker 2: and genocidal campaign of vengeance against the Croats and Muslims,

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Speaker 2: a tendency that could be monitored and controlled only by

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Speaker 2: a skilled psychiatrist in touch with the Serb collective unconsciousness.

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Speaker 2: So that's why he's like, we need a psychiatrist. Like,

436
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Speaker 2: I can stop the genocide. He's doing the Homer Simpson

437
00:21:23,660 --> 00:21:25,520
Speaker 2: thing where he's like, maybe if I'm part of the mob,

438
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:27,139
Speaker 2: I can lead it in positive directions.

439
00:21:28,930 --> 00:21:32,430
Speaker 1: That is so weak. God, they must have.

440
00:21:33,859 --> 00:21:35,860
Speaker 1: That's how you know, like, no one is in their

441
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:40,240
Speaker 1: right state of mind, where they're like, yeah, the psychiatrist, yeah, totally.

442
00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:41,740
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

443
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,860
Speaker 1: He has no skills. He has no applicable skills. Not

444
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:47,359
Speaker 1: an out-of-skill.

445
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,780
Speaker 2: And Raskovic is not going to succeed in using his

446
00:21:50,820 --> 00:21:55,550
Speaker 2: psychiatrist powers to stop a genocide. As a spoiler, it's

447
00:21:55,590 --> 00:21:58,790
Speaker 2: going to be another psychiatrist who helps cause the genocide.

448
00:21:59,340 --> 00:22:01,379
Speaker 2: But you know who's never caused a genocide that you

449
00:22:01,420 --> 00:22:05,500
Speaker 2: can prove? They were declared innocent in court of all

450
00:22:05,540 --> 00:22:06,760
Speaker 2: those killings is all I'm going to say.

451
00:22:06,820 --> 00:22:07,139
Speaker 1: Okay.

452
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:08,980
Speaker 2: The sponsors of our podcast.

453
00:22:09,140 --> 00:22:12,070
Speaker 4: I was volunteering until the court part, but I got scared.

454
00:22:12,170 --> 00:22:12,950
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

455
00:22:12,990 --> 00:22:17,830
Speaker 2: Look, did they have a couple of whistleblowers assassinated? Who hasn't?

456
00:22:18,270 --> 00:22:18,550
Speaker 3: You know?

457
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 1: Blueberries are going to have shards.

458
00:22:22,500 --> 00:22:22,840
Speaker 3: Robert Evans.

459
00:22:22,859 --> 00:22:23,900
Speaker 2: That's right. That's right.

460
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:24,720
Speaker 3: Yeah.

461
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:35,690
Speaker 2: That's right. Here's some ads. And we're back. So, after

462
00:22:35,810 --> 00:22:39,550
Speaker 2: Tito's death and an inter-party coup, the guy in charge

463
00:22:39,590 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 2: of Yugoslavia by the late 80s, during this period of

464
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:46,860
Speaker 2: declining communist state power, we'll cover him in the future,

465
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:51,410
Speaker 2: Slobodan Milosevic, right? That's the guy who winds up running

466
00:22:51,470 --> 00:22:55,270
Speaker 2: things in Belgrade. And, you know, he's running all of Yugoslavia, right?

467
00:22:55,290 --> 00:22:58,379
Speaker 2: He had been kind of a communist apparatchik. He's one

468
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,140
Speaker 2: of these, like, upper mid-level figures when the decline starts

469
00:23:02,300 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 2: after Tito's death.

470
00:23:04,060 --> 00:23:07,430
Speaker 1: Okay, so at least he has some credentials. He's in politics.

471
00:23:07,450 --> 00:23:11,270
Speaker 1: He's just kind of this, like, therapist who thought, like,

472
00:23:11,609 --> 00:23:12,649
Speaker 1: why the hell not?

473
00:23:12,790 --> 00:23:13,109
Speaker 2: Okay.

474
00:23:13,270 --> 00:23:13,389
Speaker 3: Yeah.

475
00:23:13,940 --> 00:23:15,639
Speaker 2: And we're going to have to yada yada a lot

476
00:23:15,660 --> 00:23:18,090
Speaker 2: of Milosevic. I'll cover him in the future. Please forgive

477
00:23:18,130 --> 00:23:19,709
Speaker 2: the fact that we're not going into detail here. But

478
00:23:19,750 --> 00:23:22,510
Speaker 2: basically part of his– one thing he really hates is

479
00:23:22,730 --> 00:23:27,050
Speaker 2: Milosevic does not like the 1974 Yugoslav constitution, which gives

480
00:23:27,090 --> 00:23:30,010
Speaker 2: these individual republics a right to secede because he knows

481
00:23:30,050 --> 00:23:32,689
Speaker 2: that Bosnia and Croatia at least are about to secede

482
00:23:32,710 --> 00:23:34,189
Speaker 2: along with other places. And he's like, I don't want

483
00:23:34,230 --> 00:23:36,850
Speaker 2: that because I want to be in charge of Yugoslavia, right?

484
00:23:37,430 --> 00:23:40,169
Speaker 2: Milosevic represents his base of power are a bunch of

485
00:23:40,230 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 2: conservative factions within the crumbling communist state. And he had

486
00:23:43,859 --> 00:23:46,939
Speaker 2: been largely responsible for purging the institute. So first off,

487
00:23:46,980 --> 00:23:49,620
Speaker 2: before he when he starts being in power, he purges

488
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,149
Speaker 2: a lot of these communist institutions that had kept Tito's

489
00:23:52,170 --> 00:23:55,730
Speaker 2: Yugoslavia functioning, because he is one of these like, guys

490
00:23:55,770 --> 00:23:57,730
Speaker 2: who wants to be able to make more money and stuff.

491
00:23:57,750 --> 00:23:58,810
Speaker 2: So we got to get rid of some of the

492
00:23:58,830 --> 00:23:59,770
Speaker 2: state supported shit.

493
00:24:00,530 --> 00:24:02,550
Speaker 1: Oh, I mean, we can't, we can't relate with that

494
00:24:02,790 --> 00:24:03,190
Speaker 1: at all.

495
00:24:03,869 --> 00:24:04,469
Speaker 2: Decimating?

496
00:24:05,010 --> 00:24:05,949
Speaker 1: Longstanding effect?

497
00:24:05,970 --> 00:24:08,380
Speaker 2: Yeah, decimating the parts of the state that like make

498
00:24:08,410 --> 00:24:10,679
Speaker 2: people feel like they're the same thing. Yeah, maybe not

499
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:11,460
Speaker 2: a great move.

500
00:24:11,580 --> 00:24:15,420
Speaker 1: Yeah, kill the libraries and stuff.

501
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:15,860
Speaker 2: Sure.

502
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:16,100
Speaker 3: Yeah.

503
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 2: After 1987, when Gorbachev and the USSR started opening things up,

504
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,550
Speaker 2: nationalists in Yugoslavia get inspired. And that same year, Milosevic,

505
00:24:23,590 --> 00:24:25,850
Speaker 2: who was again a middling communist apparatchik in 87, was

506
00:24:26,730 --> 00:24:28,909
Speaker 2: is sent to Kosovo because there's a bunch of Serb

507
00:24:28,950 --> 00:24:31,670
Speaker 2: nationalist protests that start up and things get pretty ugly.

508
00:24:32,190 --> 00:24:35,540
Speaker 2: And he's sent to calm things down, like stop this

509
00:24:36,700 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 2: uprising campaign. And he kind of does the opposite by

510
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,350
Speaker 2: turning himself into a mouthpiece for Serb grievances and funneling

511
00:24:44,380 --> 00:24:48,250
Speaker 2: that into personal power, right? He declares himself protector of

512
00:24:48,310 --> 00:24:51,070
Speaker 2: the Serbian nation and then embarks on a campaign to

513
00:24:51,109 --> 00:24:53,490
Speaker 2: win power, which he does by 1989. So that's how

514
00:24:53,530 --> 00:24:55,409
Speaker 2: he comes to be in charge of the state is

515
00:24:55,430 --> 00:24:58,420
Speaker 2: by being like, I'll protect the Serbs. And I think

516
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,870
Speaker 2: part of what he's doing is Serbs are the most

517
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,230
Speaker 2: powerful group in the country, more or less, at least

518
00:25:03,270 --> 00:25:05,930
Speaker 2: within like the military. So if I declare myself protector

519
00:25:05,950 --> 00:25:08,010
Speaker 2: of the Serbs, we can kind of crack down on

520
00:25:08,030 --> 00:25:11,970
Speaker 2: these other nationalist movements and stop the Serbs from wanting

521
00:25:12,030 --> 00:25:15,450
Speaker 2: to secede. And that will be how I maintain things, right?

522
00:25:15,490 --> 00:25:17,170
Speaker 2: So that's kind of, I think, his idea.

523
00:25:17,190 --> 00:25:22,439
Speaker 1: So it is so wild how hard it is to

524
00:25:22,500 --> 00:25:23,940
Speaker 1: track his thinking.

525
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

526
00:25:24,869 --> 00:25:26,270
Speaker 1: And because the people who.

527
00:25:26,350 --> 00:25:27,430
Speaker 2: It's complicated.

528
00:25:27,770 --> 00:25:28,010
Speaker 3: Yeah.

529
00:25:28,190 --> 00:25:30,510
Speaker 1: It is very complicated. And I know that that's also

530
00:25:30,750 --> 00:25:34,290
Speaker 1: just like part and parcel to this story. But I

531
00:25:34,590 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 1: cannot track this man to save my life.

532
00:25:38,230 --> 00:25:40,179
Speaker 2: He's got a lot of fucking balls he's got to

533
00:25:40,220 --> 00:25:43,580
Speaker 2: keep in the air, right? Because he's both got... He's

534
00:25:43,619 --> 00:25:47,880
Speaker 2: this protector of the Serbs, right? And he's also an anti-nationalist.

535
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:49,659
Speaker 2: And so he has to describe everyone who isn't a

536
00:25:49,700 --> 00:25:52,810
Speaker 2: Serb as the bad kind of nationalist. He is backed

537
00:25:52,869 --> 00:25:55,690
Speaker 2: by the old guard of the Yugoslavian army, right, which

538
00:25:55,750 --> 00:25:59,449
Speaker 2: is heavily Serb-dominated, and also by the old communist hardliners.

539
00:25:59,510 --> 00:26:02,770
Speaker 2: These are the people who think if Yugoslavia breaks up,

540
00:26:02,810 --> 00:26:06,090
Speaker 2: my entire power base is held up in the state maintaining.

541
00:26:06,490 --> 00:26:09,550
Speaker 2: So these are all the different kind of sometimes conflicting

542
00:26:09,630 --> 00:26:12,340
Speaker 2: interests that he's trying to balance in order to keep

543
00:26:12,380 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 2: power for himself. Per the Institute for War and Peace reporting, quote,

544
00:26:16,630 --> 00:26:20,330
Speaker 2: Milosevic sought to placate Orthodox communists and nationalists. He promised

545
00:26:20,390 --> 00:26:22,540
Speaker 2: continuity to the former, while the latter saw him as

546
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,500
Speaker 2: the brave and bellicose leader who would eventually deliver something

547
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,700
Speaker 2: resembling a greater Serbia. But he was actually promising the

548
00:26:28,740 --> 00:26:31,149
Speaker 2: impossible to both, yet they desperately wanted to believe him.

549
00:26:31,290 --> 00:26:33,510
Speaker 2: Some saw him as a genuine communist, masked as a

550
00:26:33,550 --> 00:26:36,580
Speaker 2: nationalist for tactical reasons, Others thought the situation was the

551
00:26:36,619 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 2: other way around. So you're not alone in being like,

552
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 2: where the fuck is this guy coming from? Milosevic is

553
00:26:42,780 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 2: trying to do a very complicated dance, you know?

554
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,250
Speaker 1: There's just a random soccer player being like, is that

555
00:26:49,290 --> 00:26:52,910
Speaker 1: the guy that made us play bumblebees? He's in charge?

556
00:26:53,770 --> 00:26:55,649
Speaker 2: And he's doing a lot of, like, one of his

557
00:26:55,670 --> 00:26:58,740
Speaker 2: big things, he's holding these rallies for truth. where footage

558
00:26:58,780 --> 00:27:01,940
Speaker 2: of Serbs being victimized by Muslims or Croats are played

559
00:27:01,980 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 2: to outraged crowds, right? That's like a thing that Milosevic,

560
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,300
Speaker 2: which is helping to drum up this like violent nationalist

561
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 2: sentiment that's going to become eliminationist, right? Yeah. In 1991,

562
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:20,090
Speaker 2: Slovenia and Croatia declared independence. Bosnia and Herzegovina follow in 1992.

563
00:27:20,090 --> 00:27:24,179
Speaker 2: And throughout this period, Radovan... had become increasingly radical and

564
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,500
Speaker 2: militantly pro-Serb, and he's risen to command the SDS. He's

565
00:27:27,540 --> 00:27:30,379
Speaker 2: not initially the leader of the party, but kind of

566
00:27:30,420 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 2: by this point in time, the early 90s, he is

567
00:27:32,700 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 2: running things. And his success mirrors Milosevic's, right? As political

568
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,470
Speaker 2: scientists Gerard Toll and Adis Maksic explained to Stern, quote,

569
00:27:41,830 --> 00:27:44,909
Speaker 2: Karadzic was an effective public speaker with an effective makeup

570
00:27:44,930 --> 00:27:47,570
Speaker 2: that allowed him to connect with rural Serb mores and

571
00:27:47,590 --> 00:27:50,940
Speaker 2: habits of thought. One of his friends, another poet named Mimidovich,

572
00:27:51,020 --> 00:27:55,290
Speaker 2: described Radovan's behavior as changing overnight. He starts carrying a

573
00:27:55,369 --> 00:27:58,070
Speaker 2: pistol at all times and he wants it to be visible.

574
00:27:58,430 --> 00:28:01,530
Speaker 2: And he starts playing down his like backstory as a

575
00:28:01,550 --> 00:28:04,950
Speaker 2: psychiatrist and a poet by remaking himself as like militant

576
00:28:05,050 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 2: leader who is like, I'm the historically ordained leader of

577
00:28:09,180 --> 00:28:11,659
Speaker 2: the Bosnian Serbs. Like I'm almost like our kind of

578
00:28:11,740 --> 00:28:15,580
Speaker 2: fascist Christ figure come to redeem the Serb nation. That's

579
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 2: how he starts talking in a lot of ways.

580
00:28:17,700 --> 00:28:21,030
Speaker 1: He's literally, he's like on like a fascist eras tour.

581
00:28:21,210 --> 00:28:23,190
Speaker 1: This is like so, yeah.

582
00:28:23,980 --> 00:28:25,429
Speaker 2: He's speed running a lot of it.

583
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

584
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 2: Now, almost as soon as Bosnia and Herzegovina have their

585
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,260
Speaker 2: referendum for independence, Bosnian Serb militias, so they have this

586
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 2: referendum and it becomes clear Bosnia is going to become independent.

587
00:28:36,619 --> 00:28:39,170
Speaker 2: And the Bosniaks have the most powerful political bloc in

588
00:28:39,190 --> 00:28:42,090
Speaker 2: the country. But the Serbs have more weapons, in part

589
00:28:42,150 --> 00:28:45,310
Speaker 2: because the Yugoslav military is giving a bunch of arms

590
00:28:45,370 --> 00:28:48,479
Speaker 2: to these Bosnian Serb militias. who are being led by

591
00:28:48,500 --> 00:28:52,980
Speaker 2: the SDS and under Radovan's control. And after this referendum,

592
00:28:53,260 --> 00:28:56,180
Speaker 2: these militias seize land. They lead a bunch of assaults

593
00:28:56,220 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 2: and they conquer most of Bosnia and Herzegovina, right? So

594
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:01,300
Speaker 2: they use the fact that they have the guns to

595
00:29:01,340 --> 00:29:05,630
Speaker 2: take political power for themselves. And they declare an independent state,

596
00:29:05,990 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 2: the Republika Srpska. So you get Bosnia has this referendum

597
00:29:10,020 --> 00:29:12,540
Speaker 2: for independence. And they're like, okay, we'll be independent. But

598
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,580
Speaker 2: because we have the guns, we'll overthrow everyone else. And

599
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,140
Speaker 2: we'll make it our state, the Republika Srpska, right?

600
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,420
Speaker 1: Sure. Yeah.

601
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 2: So there's this independent now Serbian government. controlled state, but

602
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 2: that's still mostly Bosniak, right? And the SDS, because it

603
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,380
Speaker 2: had been the embryo around which the military and state formed,

604
00:29:32,710 --> 00:29:36,030
Speaker 2: Radovan Karadzic becomes the first head of the republic, right?

605
00:29:36,170 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 2: So he is now the dictator of this, like... Serbian

606
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,420
Speaker 2: kind of militant republic that's taken over a bunch of Bosnia.

607
00:29:44,670 --> 00:29:48,050
Speaker 1: I mean, it's always bad. It's always bad to have

608
00:29:48,070 --> 00:29:52,750
Speaker 1: a dictator. But this is I just like a dictator

609
00:29:52,790 --> 00:29:55,750
Speaker 1: that has kind of an identity crisis every half decade

610
00:29:55,890 --> 00:29:59,390
Speaker 1: or so. Just yeah, you're not on steady ground with

611
00:29:59,410 --> 00:29:59,890
Speaker 1: this guy.

612
00:30:00,150 --> 00:30:02,690
Speaker 2: No, he could go anywhere. Right.

613
00:30:02,810 --> 00:30:05,970
Speaker 1: Yeah. He's gonna he's gonna like pivot to become a

614
00:30:06,050 --> 00:30:09,030
Speaker 1: jewelry maker in the middle of everything.

615
00:30:09,050 --> 00:30:10,490
Speaker 2: That's a cool that's a cool job, though.

616
00:30:10,930 --> 00:30:12,730
Speaker 1: That's a fun. I love I'm a big fan of

617
00:30:12,750 --> 00:30:13,150
Speaker 1: that pivot.

618
00:30:13,930 --> 00:30:18,610
Speaker 2: I agree. Same. So immediately pre-war, the population of the

619
00:30:18,670 --> 00:30:21,650
Speaker 2: area that becomes the Republic had been about 44% Bosniak

620
00:30:21,710 --> 00:30:25,410
Speaker 2: and 17% Croat and only about 33% Serbian. So you've

621
00:30:25,430 --> 00:30:27,830
Speaker 2: got about a third of the populace are Serbs, but

622
00:30:27,910 --> 00:30:30,860
Speaker 2: Serbs are the only people really represented under the government

623
00:30:30,890 --> 00:30:34,420
Speaker 2: headed by Radovan. And this has all been done. The

624
00:30:34,460 --> 00:30:37,300
Speaker 2: guy who's like endorsing all of this is Milosevic, right?

625
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,780
Speaker 2: He's very much in favor and he's often guiding like

626
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 2: what's happening here. And Radovan comes to see himself in

627
00:30:43,860 --> 00:30:47,500
Speaker 2: almost mythic terms as a man brought forward to defend

628
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,500
Speaker 2: his people in their moment of need. And their main

629
00:30:50,580 --> 00:30:53,780
Speaker 2: need is to commit genocide because you can't have this

630
00:30:53,980 --> 00:30:56,500
Speaker 2: country just be a third Serbian. And we're not going

631
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 2: to get a bunch more Serbs to move here. So

632
00:30:58,460 --> 00:30:59,740
Speaker 2: what we got to do is get rid of the

633
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 2: people who aren't, right? That's how we're going to pump

634
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 2: those numbers up.

635
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,530
Speaker 1: This is so fucking bleak. Yeah.

636
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very ugly. Psychiatrists running for the American Journal

637
00:31:11,220 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 2: of Psychiatric Law analyzed the language that Radovan used in

638
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:34,050
Speaker 2: his speeches around this time. Quote, Karadzic rediscovered a mythical

639
00:31:34,130 --> 00:31:39,290
Speaker 2: primordial language identifying with Petar Petrovic Nergos, Montenegro's 19th century

640
00:31:39,370 --> 00:31:42,710
Speaker 2: Prince Bishopette, in which he evokes themes of blood, soil,

641
00:31:42,770 --> 00:31:46,390
Speaker 2: and hallowed ground. Group therapist to his wounded nation, Karadzic

642
00:31:46,710 --> 00:31:49,410
Speaker 2: was someone who, according to his wife, understands the depths

643
00:31:49,450 --> 00:31:51,990
Speaker 2: of a person's soul, set himself to the task of

644
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,980
Speaker 2: healing the collective sorrow of the Serbian people. And he's

645
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,660
Speaker 2: going to heal it by getting revenge for the violence

646
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 2: that was done against them, right?

647
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:03,990
Speaker 1: This is, I mean, this is all... You know, both

648
00:32:05,010 --> 00:32:08,610
Speaker 1: obviously horrifying and also just feels so in step with

649
00:32:10,230 --> 00:32:12,390
Speaker 1: what a dictator with an identity crisis would be. He'd

650
00:32:12,430 --> 00:32:15,460
Speaker 1: be like, oh, so I'm actually God. And it kind

651
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:20,060
Speaker 1: of harkens back to all of his father problems, right?

652
00:32:20,100 --> 00:32:23,370
Speaker 1: Like his father, the mythic storyteller.

653
00:32:23,380 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. We never escape our parents, Foley. Yeah. Now,

654
00:32:29,260 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 2: Radovan's chief military leader, the guy who's going to be

655
00:32:31,940 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 2: carrying out all of the things that he wants done,

656
00:32:35,090 --> 00:32:38,770
Speaker 2: is General Ratko Mladic. He just died recently, a couple

657
00:32:38,790 --> 00:32:41,010
Speaker 2: of weeks ago. He was prosecuted for war crimes after

658
00:32:41,030 --> 00:32:43,450
Speaker 2: all this and literally just passed on the same week

659
00:32:43,490 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 2: as Dalia Parton. And Ratko leads this army of the republics,

660
00:32:48,780 --> 00:32:52,060
Speaker 2: about 100,000 men, Serbian army, that he's able to use

661
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,580
Speaker 2: to consolidate power with tremendous brutality. And this write-up by

662
00:32:55,620 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 2: the BBC describes what happened next. A vicious war ensued

663
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,580
Speaker 2: in which Serbs besieged Sarajevo for 44 months, shelling Bosniak

664
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 2: forces but also terrorizing the civilian population with a relentless

665
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,540
Speaker 2: bombardment and sniper fire. Thousands of civilians died, many of

666
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,910
Speaker 2: them deliberately targeted. Bosnian Serb forces, assisted by paramilitaries from

667
00:33:14,970 --> 00:33:18,370
Speaker 2: Serbia proper, also expelled hundreds of thousands of Bosniaks and

668
00:33:18,410 --> 00:33:21,270
Speaker 2: Croats from their homes in a brutal campaign of ethnic cleansing.

669
00:33:21,780 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 2: Numerous atrocities were documented, including the widespread rape of Bosniak

670
00:33:25,460 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 2: women and girls so that their kids won't be will

671
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:29,540
Speaker 2: have served blood.

672
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: Right.

673
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 2: That's the idea behind that sort of thing.

674
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: Right.

675
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. So this is I mean, it's hard to exaggerate

676
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 2: how bad things are in Sarajevo. When I was there

677
00:33:40,660 --> 00:33:43,460
Speaker 2: in like 2015 and I went to I was in Ukraine,

678
00:33:43,570 --> 00:33:46,110
Speaker 2: which was actually at war. I was in like part

679
00:33:46,170 --> 00:33:49,430
Speaker 2: like a city under siege in Ukraine. And then I

680
00:33:49,470 --> 00:33:53,420
Speaker 2: go to Sarajevo. And decades after the war ends, Sarajevo

681
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,060
Speaker 2: still looked about as bad as the places that were

682
00:33:56,220 --> 00:34:00,950
Speaker 2: actively being shelled. And obviously, it's much more built up,

683
00:34:00,980 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 2: but they kept a lot of the bullet holes and

684
00:34:03,660 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 2: a lot of the shell holes and stuff as a memorial, right?

685
00:34:06,340 --> 00:34:10,129
Speaker 2: So you can tell by how much is left how

686
00:34:10,290 --> 00:34:12,910
Speaker 2: bad things would have been at the end of the fighting. Like,

687
00:34:12,989 --> 00:34:16,390
Speaker 2: I can't exaggerate how fucked Sarajevo gets as a result

688
00:34:16,430 --> 00:34:17,750
Speaker 2: of all this. It is a nightmare.

689
00:34:17,770 --> 00:34:17,850
Speaker 3: Yeah.

690
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,299
Speaker 1: As close as I can remember. I mean, this is like,

691
00:34:20,780 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: this is the period.

692
00:34:21,660 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 2: We're kids when this is happening. Yeah. Right.

693
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,860
Speaker 1: I was like, this is, I actually do. Do you

694
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:28,860
Speaker 1: remember Zlata's diary?

695
00:34:28,890 --> 00:34:28,969
Speaker 3: Yeah.

696
00:34:29,750 --> 00:34:30,090
Speaker 1: Yeah.

697
00:34:30,150 --> 00:34:30,290
Speaker 3: Yeah.

698
00:34:30,430 --> 00:34:30,810
Speaker 2: I think so.

699
00:34:30,870 --> 00:34:33,549
Speaker 1: Yeah. I remember there was like an old copy of

700
00:34:33,730 --> 00:34:37,210
Speaker 1: Zlata's diary that I read. I probably too young, but

701
00:34:37,250 --> 00:34:39,430
Speaker 1: I remember seeing it at the library and reading it

702
00:34:39,510 --> 00:34:45,219
Speaker 1: and that being sort of, kind of my only education on, uh, on,

703
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 1: on the Balkan area at all. And certainly in Sarajevo

704
00:34:48,380 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 1: growing up entirely was, was that book. Yeah.

705
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:53,980
Speaker 2: And it is, and there's all sorts of horrible shit.

706
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,590
Speaker 2: It's just come out that they were basically some of

707
00:34:56,610 --> 00:34:59,029
Speaker 2: the Serb forces were taking money to lead like people

708
00:34:59,050 --> 00:35:01,850
Speaker 2: from South Africa and shit on sniper tours where you

709
00:35:01,870 --> 00:35:04,450
Speaker 2: would just get to kill people, like shoot random Muslims

710
00:35:04,489 --> 00:35:07,510
Speaker 2: and whoever in the streets of Sarajevo with sniper rifles.

711
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,670
Speaker 2: They're Sarajevo's in like a big bowl depression, like you've

712
00:35:11,690 --> 00:35:14,009
Speaker 2: got like mountain valleys and stuff around it. So it

713
00:35:14,530 --> 00:35:17,530
Speaker 2: because the cities in the low part and the heights

714
00:35:17,670 --> 00:35:19,610
Speaker 2: around it, if you can just get a bunch of

715
00:35:19,660 --> 00:35:22,420
Speaker 2: tanks and artillery in the heights around the city, you

716
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 2: can just shoot into Sarajevo endlessly. And that's what they

717
00:35:25,580 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 2: do for like four years. Like it's just awful.

718
00:35:30,070 --> 00:35:30,390
Speaker 3: Yeah.

719
00:35:30,690 --> 00:35:34,150
Speaker 2: Radaban had written a poem about Sarajevo drowning in blood

720
00:35:34,450 --> 00:35:37,689
Speaker 2: in 1971. And he sees this poem and the war

721
00:35:37,730 --> 00:35:40,800
Speaker 2: he helped start as preordained. And he's almost like, well,

722
00:35:41,050 --> 00:35:43,140
Speaker 2: these visions came to me because it was what I

723
00:35:43,180 --> 00:35:45,220
Speaker 2: was going to need to do. My own artistic visions

724
00:35:45,620 --> 00:35:47,859
Speaker 2: are proof that me and Ratko are doing the right

725
00:35:47,980 --> 00:35:52,890
Speaker 2: thing by just massacring people in this city. What is it.

726
00:35:52,830 --> 00:35:58,060
Speaker 1: With these fucking people and their college age art projects

727
00:35:58,080 --> 00:35:59,100
Speaker 1: being seen as a prophecy?

728
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,399
Speaker 2: They can never get over this shit. Never get over

729
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 2: this shit.

730
00:36:03,420 --> 00:36:08,620
Speaker 1: Almost without exception. It is like, it is remarkable.

731
00:36:08,739 --> 00:36:11,350
Speaker 2: I mean, I'll say this, Jamie. In my first novel,

732
00:36:11,469 --> 00:36:13,350
Speaker 2: I did nuke the city of Dallas. And if I

733
00:36:13,430 --> 00:36:16,150
Speaker 2: ever gained political power, I might. I'm not going to

734
00:36:16,190 --> 00:36:18,270
Speaker 2: say I wouldn't because I had to live there for

735
00:36:18,270 --> 00:36:19,129
Speaker 2: 20 something years.

736
00:36:19,710 --> 00:36:21,630
Speaker 1: That's good. I mean, as is your right.

737
00:36:21,770 --> 00:36:24,540
Speaker 2: As is my right. Every Texan has the right to

738
00:36:24,620 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 2: nuke the high five.

739
00:36:29,260 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess my version of this, I came

740
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,730
Speaker 1: up with the idea for Santa University when I was 19,

741
00:36:36,730 --> 00:36:39,410
Speaker 1: which I do see as kind of a grand prophecy.

742
00:36:39,630 --> 00:36:41,770
Speaker 2: If you become a fascist dictator, that's what we'll have.

743
00:36:43,070 --> 00:36:46,580
Speaker 1: I mean, and there are some pretty violent ideas inside

744
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:48,540
Speaker 1: of Santa University. I mean, it's right there.

745
00:36:48,620 --> 00:36:49,460
Speaker 2: It's mostly that.

746
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:52,500
Speaker 1: It's a lot of killing. Yeah.

747
00:36:53,020 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

748
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,290
Speaker 2: A Santa story. So the resultant violence would kill more

749
00:36:57,310 --> 00:37:00,890
Speaker 2: than 100,000 people, and Radovan personally helped to plan mass

750
00:37:00,910 --> 00:37:06,339
Speaker 2: deportations and mass murders. During the years-long siege of Sarajevo, Mladic,

751
00:37:06,500 --> 00:37:09,060
Speaker 2: acting under Radovan's orders, flattened much of the city with

752
00:37:09,100 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 2: artillery and tank fire. Snipers massacred women and children and

753
00:37:12,260 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 2: men trying to gather food or simply walking down the street.

754
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 2: The Serb army murdered more than 10,000 people there. Here's

755
00:37:19,260 --> 00:37:22,219
Speaker 2: how the CBC described the behavior of the army of

756
00:37:22,300 --> 00:37:26,359
Speaker 2: Radovan and Mladic. Quote, the army Mladic created to fight

757
00:37:26,410 --> 00:37:29,020
Speaker 2: in Bosnia was a model of ruthlessness. And some of

758
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,859
Speaker 2: the most horrific examples, prisoners suffocated in the heat after

759
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 2: being forced to eat salt and denied water. They were

760
00:37:34,500 --> 00:37:36,899
Speaker 2: starved and raped in prison camps were made to jump

761
00:37:36,940 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 2: off a bridge and shot and were gunned down at

762
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,340
Speaker 2: night by the hundreds after being driven out of detention

763
00:37:41,380 --> 00:37:45,180
Speaker 2: with chemical gas. So this is just a, just a

764
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 2: war crimey army. There is not any, any getting around that. Yeah.

765
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:55,350
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, it's like truly that, that, impossible to

766
00:37:55,730 --> 00:37:59,130
Speaker 1: avoid growing growing up and but still i mean it

767
00:37:59,489 --> 00:38:02,190
Speaker 1: is just i mean and we can talk about you

768
00:38:02,210 --> 00:38:04,930
Speaker 1: know three different genocides that are treated much the same

769
00:38:05,180 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 1: in in western media basically that are like all but

770
00:38:08,860 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 1: um ignored probably so that we don't know what a

771
00:38:11,780 --> 00:38:15,299
Speaker 1: genocide looks like yeah when our government is participating in one.

772
00:38:16,230 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 2: One of the really frustrating things too about this genocide

773
00:38:19,340 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 2: is that because it does get stopped, like NATO and

774
00:38:22,140 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 2: the UN like take action and the perpetrators are punished.

775
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 2: And then that part's good that they go after the

776
00:38:28,620 --> 00:38:31,270
Speaker 2: perpetrators and it's good that it is eventually stopped. One

777
00:38:31,290 --> 00:38:34,049
Speaker 2: of the most like iconic pieces of graffiti from Sarajevo

778
00:38:34,190 --> 00:38:37,730
Speaker 2: is the UN logo with United Nothing underneath it. Because

779
00:38:38,050 --> 00:38:40,130
Speaker 2: as the victims will say, yeah, but it took you,

780
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 2: you took your sweet fucking time. Right? Yeah.

781
00:38:44,300 --> 00:38:48,460
Speaker 1: Like, it's always when things are at an absolutely desperate

782
00:38:48,500 --> 00:38:49,320
Speaker 1: point that.

783
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:49,859
Speaker 2: Intervention actually happens.

784
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:50,140
Speaker 1: Oh, good.

785
00:38:50,180 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 2: Finally. After 44 months.

786
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:52,540
Speaker 3: Thanks.

787
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:53,620
Speaker 2: Right.

788
00:38:54,060 --> 00:38:54,460
Speaker 3: Right.

789
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,130
Speaker 2: Glad you got your shit together after my family was killed.

790
00:39:00,190 --> 00:39:02,430
Speaker 2: So while Radovan was not a soldier or a military

791
00:39:02,469 --> 00:39:05,830
Speaker 2: leader directly, he was directly involved in operating a string

792
00:39:05,870 --> 00:39:08,710
Speaker 2: of concentration camps in which thousands of people were tortured

793
00:39:08,730 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 2: and killed. Per a study in the Journal of the

794
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 2: American Academy of Psychiatric Law, quote, disturbing suggestions have emerged

795
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,620
Speaker 2: that Karajic deliberately used his psychiatric training to create military

796
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,969
Speaker 2: and political policies that would create fear, terror, and extensive

797
00:39:23,010 --> 00:39:26,950
Speaker 2: post-traumatic stress disorder in civilian populations. Allegations have been made

798
00:39:26,989 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 2: of Karadzic's direct personal complicity in acts of violence and torture,

799
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,320
Speaker 2: including claims that Karadzic had participated in and witnessed tortures

800
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:38,540
Speaker 2: at various Bosnian Serb-run concentration camps. So he's, like, just

801
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,140
Speaker 2: showing up at the camps to kind of make sure

802
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,290
Speaker 2: they're doing the torturing right. Like, he wants it to

803
00:39:42,350 --> 00:39:44,930
Speaker 2: be the maximum amount of fucking up people's brains. As

804
00:39:44,950 --> 00:39:47,489
Speaker 2: a psychiatrist, he feels he really knows how to fuck

805
00:39:47,550 --> 00:39:49,089
Speaker 2: up someone's head. Heh.

806
00:39:49,830 --> 00:39:50,230
Speaker 4: Cool.

807
00:39:51,290 --> 00:39:57,350
Speaker 1: Cool. Yeah, he really is fully committing to this pivot

808
00:39:57,390 --> 00:39:59,350
Speaker 1: to being one of history's greatest monsters.

809
00:39:59,430 --> 00:40:00,029
Speaker 2: He really is.

810
00:40:00,110 --> 00:40:01,219
Speaker 4: Incredible, right, guys?

811
00:40:02,260 --> 00:40:02,490
Speaker 3: Yeah.

812
00:40:02,620 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 2: And the war culminates in the slaughter of Bosniaks in

813
00:40:06,060 --> 00:40:12,779
Speaker 2: a town called Srebrenica. This is just an awful act

814
00:40:12,820 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 2: of genocide. I'm going to read another quote from that

815
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,109
Speaker 2: CBC article here describing some of what happens. Mladic had

816
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 2: a cameraman film the blitz on the encircled enclave of Srebrenica,

817
00:40:22,620 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 2: haranguing Dutch UN peacekeepers who misguidedly accepted his solemn word

818
00:40:26,620 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 2: that the inhabitants would be safe in his hands. Srebrenica

819
00:40:29,739 --> 00:40:32,900
Speaker 2: supposedly had safe area status, meant to protect civilians from

820
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,760
Speaker 2: ethnic cleansing. We give this town to the Serb people

821
00:40:35,820 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 2: as a gift, Mladic said to the camera, claiming the

822
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,879
Speaker 2: victory as revenge against Muslim Turks, who had once held

823
00:40:40,900 --> 00:40:43,319
Speaker 2: the area as part of the Ottoman Empire. When NATO

824
00:40:43,380 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 2: tried in 1995 to rein in his forces with the

825
00:40:45,900 --> 00:40:49,630
Speaker 2: threat of limited airstrikes, His troops defiantly seized UN peacekeepers

826
00:40:49,690 --> 00:40:53,870
Speaker 2: as human shields, chaining them to likely targets. So again,

827
00:40:53,890 --> 00:40:56,330
Speaker 2: the UN, super effective, really do their job there.

828
00:40:57,469 --> 00:41:00,689
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no no's for the UN. They're always there

829
00:41:00,810 --> 00:41:01,870
Speaker 1: right in the nick of time.

830
00:41:02,210 --> 00:41:04,770
Speaker 2: Yep, right in the nick of too late. As a

831
00:41:04,790 --> 00:41:07,910
Speaker 2: result of all of this, more than 8,000 Bosniak men

832
00:41:07,950 --> 00:41:11,390
Speaker 2: and boys are rounded up and executed by Mladic's men.

833
00:41:11,830 --> 00:41:16,050
Speaker 2: Another 20,000... went to Srebrenica and interviewed survivors of the genocide.

834
00:41:16,130 --> 00:41:17,589
Speaker 2: One of the guys who was like a boy when

835
00:41:17,650 --> 00:41:19,870
Speaker 2: it happened was literally, it was, he was at the

836
00:41:19,910 --> 00:41:21,710
Speaker 2: bottom of a pile of the corpses of his family

837
00:41:21,750 --> 00:41:23,690
Speaker 2: members and had to like crawl out after it got

838
00:41:23,730 --> 00:41:27,450
Speaker 2: dark to escape. Um, like there's a lot of stories

839
00:41:27,510 --> 00:41:30,940
Speaker 2: like that. This is the worst single genocidal act of

840
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 2: the war. Very soon after Mladic and Radovan seemed to

841
00:41:34,500 --> 00:41:37,219
Speaker 2: have known that they had gone too far. Mladic's men

842
00:41:37,260 --> 00:41:40,319
Speaker 2: were ordered to bulldoze the dead into mass graves and

843
00:41:40,340 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 2: then dig them up and rebury them elsewhere to hide

844
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:47,089
Speaker 2: the evidence. NATO and UN pressure was, eventually, far too late,

845
00:41:47,250 --> 00:41:50,009
Speaker 2: enough to force Radovan and Mladic to step down in

846
00:41:50,030 --> 00:41:54,969
Speaker 2: November of 1996. In 95, like the end of 95,

847
00:41:54,969 --> 00:41:57,910
Speaker 2: there's a ceasefire that gets negotiated in Dayton, Ohio. These

848
00:41:57,930 --> 00:42:01,089
Speaker 2: are the Dayton Accords. And they hold on to power

849
00:42:01,140 --> 00:42:03,760
Speaker 2: a little bit after that, but they've both been indicted

850
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,240
Speaker 2: for war crimes, and so they have to step down.

851
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,100
Speaker 2: Radovan would later claim that U.S. diplomat Richard Holbrooke promised

852
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,940
Speaker 2: him immunity from prosecution if he stepped down, Holbrook has

853
00:42:12,980 --> 00:42:15,989
Speaker 2: always denied this. Maybe Holbrook lied. I don't think it's

854
00:42:16,030 --> 00:42:18,529
Speaker 2: bad to actually lie to a genocidal dictator about not

855
00:42:18,570 --> 00:42:20,569
Speaker 2: prosecuting him to get him to leave power. Like, if

856
00:42:20,610 --> 00:42:21,810
Speaker 2: Holbrook did that, that actually.

857
00:42:21,630 --> 00:42:22,350
Speaker 1: Makes him cooler.

858
00:42:24,430 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 2: Sure, I don't have an issue with that, really.

859
00:42:26,219 --> 00:42:29,940
Speaker 1: First things you could do in that situation, sure.

860
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 2: Sure. For the first roughly two years after he stepped down,

861
00:42:34,380 --> 00:42:38,509
Speaker 2: Radovan lived openly in the former capital of the republic,

862
00:42:39,020 --> 00:42:42,060
Speaker 2: and continued something like a normal life, now living as

863
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 2: a celebrity among far-right Serb nationalists. But it soon became

864
00:42:45,910 --> 00:42:49,890
Speaker 2: clear that the UN eventually meant business, and Serb war

865
00:42:49,950 --> 00:42:52,509
Speaker 2: criminals were going to be the first and almost the

866
00:42:52,690 --> 00:42:56,100
Speaker 2: only genocide perpetrators held to account for their crimes since Nuremberg.

867
00:42:57,180 --> 00:42:58,820
Speaker 1: Yeah, before and since!

868
00:42:59,670 --> 00:43:01,930
Speaker 2: Yeah, you will get, every now and then you'll get,

869
00:43:01,950 --> 00:43:04,170
Speaker 2: because there will be something about like some African warlord

870
00:43:04,190 --> 00:43:06,509
Speaker 2: who's getting prosecuted for war crimes. And they'll be like, oh,

871
00:43:06,530 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 2: so they prosecute like the non-white war criminals. It's like, no,

872
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 2: they did go after a lot of Serbs. Like that

873
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:16,359
Speaker 2: was kind of the first case of it for the ICC. And,

874
00:43:16,580 --> 00:43:19,989
Speaker 2: you know, they do eventually get their shit together. And

875
00:43:20,070 --> 00:43:21,569
Speaker 2: so this means that Radovan's going to have to go

876
00:43:21,630 --> 00:43:23,430
Speaker 2: into hiding if he doesn't want to face the music.

877
00:43:24,020 --> 00:43:26,779
Speaker 2: And since Radovan considered himself blameless and innocent of any

878
00:43:26,820 --> 00:43:30,840
Speaker 2: war crimes, he certainly did not want to go into trial. However,

879
00:43:31,140 --> 00:43:33,319
Speaker 2: he's also not the kind of guy who looks like

880
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 2: he would be able to hide very well. And so

881
00:43:35,219 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 2: he's going to show you a picture of him during

882
00:43:36,780 --> 00:43:39,660
Speaker 2: the war. This is him next to Radko Mladic. I

883
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:42,230
Speaker 2: don't know how to describe his hair other than Super Saiyan.

884
00:43:42,750 --> 00:43:45,370
Speaker 2: Like he has like a white shock of straight up,

885
00:43:45,410 --> 00:43:48,529
Speaker 2: like I don't, how do you, what is happening? What

886
00:43:48,610 --> 00:43:52,030
Speaker 2: is happening with that man's hair? He looks like fucking Goku.

887
00:43:52,070 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love it.

888
00:43:53,780 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 3: It's so awful.

889
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,860
Speaker 1: He does look like an anime villain. This sucks.

890
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:01,739
Speaker 2: It's amazing. Of all the genocide perpetrators, he has the

891
00:44:01,780 --> 00:44:02,760
Speaker 2: best hair.

892
00:44:03,770 --> 00:44:04,670
Speaker 1: This sucks.

893
00:44:05,770 --> 00:44:06,790
Speaker 2: Because he looks so good?

894
00:44:08,550 --> 00:44:09,730
Speaker 1: This sucks, man.

895
00:44:09,790 --> 00:44:11,570
Speaker 2: You don't want him to be a bad guy looking

896
00:44:11,610 --> 00:44:12,110
Speaker 2: that cool?

897
00:44:13,250 --> 00:44:15,990
Speaker 1: You don't want that to be the bad guy. You

898
00:44:16,030 --> 00:44:19,100
Speaker 1: don't want someone with hair that falls quite like that

899
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:26,700
Speaker 1: to be a monster. This is like, man, yeah, this

900
00:44:26,780 --> 00:44:29,479
Speaker 1: is just like overwhelming.

901
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,410
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot to cope with here.

902
00:44:32,890 --> 00:44:33,190
Speaker 1: Yes.

903
00:44:33,250 --> 00:44:36,169
Speaker 2: So the fact that Radovan was able to escape into

904
00:44:36,210 --> 00:44:39,770
Speaker 2: hiding was a direct result of NATO and U.S. incompetence.

905
00:44:40,150 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 2: More than 64,000 NATO peacekeepers were stationed in the Republic

906
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:48,839
Speaker 2: after the war, and everyone knew where Radovan was for

907
00:44:48,860 --> 00:44:51,899
Speaker 2: like two years. Per an article by The Guardian, quote,

908
00:44:52,180 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 2: There was no political will to risk either peacekeepers or

909
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:57,359
Speaker 2: the peace itself on arrest operations. And so they don't

910
00:44:57,510 --> 00:44:59,510
Speaker 2: do anything when he's living openly.

911
00:44:59,989 --> 00:45:02,489
Speaker 1: That's just like, that's what NATO does.

912
00:45:02,510 --> 00:45:05,209
Speaker 2: We can't have peace if we punish these guys for genocide.

913
00:45:05,810 --> 00:45:09,590
Speaker 1: They're like Wile E. Coyote in these situations without fail.

914
00:45:09,630 --> 00:45:12,300
Speaker 1: They're just like, I don't know where to go.

915
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 2: It's the same mistake liberals and centrists always make, which

916
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 2: is like once you've had these like monster genocide fascists

917
00:45:18,500 --> 00:45:20,569
Speaker 2: and you get them caged up, it's like, well, we

918
00:45:20,610 --> 00:45:24,370
Speaker 2: can't punish too many people because that won't lead to peace.

919
00:45:24,430 --> 00:45:26,220
Speaker 2: And it's like, no, no, you actually have to hold

920
00:45:26,260 --> 00:45:30,100
Speaker 2: people accountable for doing awful things very quickly and viciously.

921
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:35,300
Speaker 1: How many years has it been since Netanyahu was declared

922
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:38,530
Speaker 1: a war criminal and he's just going around?

923
00:45:38,550 --> 00:45:40,650
Speaker 2: I mean, the ICC did what it should have done.

924
00:45:40,670 --> 00:45:44,450
Speaker 2: They don't have an army, right? But yeah, I'll blame everyone,

925
00:45:44,489 --> 00:45:46,950
Speaker 2: but they at least did indict him, right?

926
00:45:46,969 --> 00:45:49,250
Speaker 1: They did, they did. Yeah.

927
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 2: So by the time that shit changes in 97 and

928
00:45:56,820 --> 00:46:00,130
Speaker 2: they decide it's actually worth going after these people, Radovan

929
00:46:00,170 --> 00:46:02,430
Speaker 2: is long gone. He has gone into hiding despite his

930
00:46:02,469 --> 00:46:06,130
Speaker 2: incredible hair. By 2000, Bill Clinton is on his way out.

931
00:46:06,250 --> 00:46:08,370
Speaker 2: And one of the things Slick Willy wants is he

932
00:46:08,410 --> 00:46:11,620
Speaker 2: wants the capture of this legendary war criminal to be

933
00:46:11,660 --> 00:46:14,319
Speaker 2: part of his legacy, right? He wants that as like

934
00:46:14,340 --> 00:46:16,819
Speaker 2: a foreign policy coup. So in kind of his last

935
00:46:16,860 --> 00:46:19,880
Speaker 2: year in office, He creates a new task force at

936
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 2: the NSC to launch the largest and most expensive manhunt

937
00:46:24,300 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 2: in history up to that point, up until we go

938
00:46:26,380 --> 00:46:27,180
Speaker 2: after Bin Laden.

939
00:46:27,469 --> 00:46:28,509
Speaker 1: Oh, it's like up until, yeah.

940
00:46:29,030 --> 00:46:30,730
Speaker 2: Yeah. And a lot of the same people who go

941
00:46:30,750 --> 00:46:34,510
Speaker 2: after Bin Laden, they learn the ropes of the job

942
00:46:34,670 --> 00:46:37,930
Speaker 2: going after Radovan. And as a spoiler, they're bad at

943
00:46:38,469 --> 00:46:40,670
Speaker 2: getting him. So I don't know if we should have

944
00:46:40,770 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 2: used the same guys to go after Bin Laden because

945
00:46:42,820 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 2: they actually suck at both jobs.

946
00:46:44,219 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 4: Yeah.

947
00:46:46,290 --> 00:46:50,020
Speaker 2: So the hunt for Radovan Mladic was the largest deployment

948
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 2: of special operations forces anywhere in the world prior to 9-11.

949
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:57,910
Speaker 2: Delta Force, SEAL Team 6, and the British SAS were involved,

950
00:46:58,050 --> 00:47:01,609
Speaker 2: as are a number of CIA units, MI6, the DIA.

951
00:47:01,650 --> 00:47:05,150
Speaker 2: They're like every fucking intelligence agency and special forces unit

952
00:47:05,170 --> 00:47:08,250
Speaker 2: you can imagine involved. are hunting after this man who

953
00:47:08,310 --> 00:47:11,750
Speaker 2: looks like he's got a fucking shock of silver white

954
00:47:11,810 --> 00:47:15,430
Speaker 2: hair standing up, and they accomplish fuck all. They cannot

955
00:47:15,510 --> 00:47:19,810
Speaker 2: find him. He's a fucking ghost. The guy in charge

956
00:47:19,850 --> 00:47:22,360
Speaker 2: of this effort is David Petraeus, who is going to

957
00:47:22,380 --> 00:47:25,859
Speaker 2: be a future director of the CIA. He's eventually disgraced

958
00:47:25,980 --> 00:47:28,940
Speaker 2: after he sleeps with the reporter writing a book about him.

959
00:47:29,620 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 3: Wow.

960
00:47:30,420 --> 00:47:34,030
Speaker 1: I didn't see him coming. Didn't see Petraeus coming, huh?

961
00:47:34,100 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 2: You never do.

962
00:47:35,219 --> 00:47:36,910
Speaker 1: Didn't see Petraeus coming.

963
00:47:38,590 --> 00:47:40,710
Speaker 2: He was so excited by all the cool toys, because

964
00:47:40,730 --> 00:47:42,670
Speaker 2: this is his first real time getting to work closely

965
00:47:42,690 --> 00:47:45,470
Speaker 2: with special forces, that he forces his way. He demands

966
00:47:45,510 --> 00:47:47,870
Speaker 2: to be allowed to attend some night raids with Delta Force.

967
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:51,279
Speaker 2: Their commander described him as a kid in a candy store.

968
00:47:51,570 --> 00:47:54,270
Speaker 2: And again, he sucks at this job. Per the Guardian.

969
00:47:54,290 --> 00:47:56,210
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he'll keep sucking.

970
00:47:57,510 --> 00:47:59,549
Speaker 2: Wait till you hear how bad he sucks at his job, though.

971
00:47:59,730 --> 00:48:00,250
Speaker 1: Oh, great.

972
00:48:00,550 --> 00:48:00,650
Speaker 3: Oh.

973
00:48:01,050 --> 00:48:03,950
Speaker 2: Per the Guardian, Petraeus and his men would make unannounced

974
00:48:04,030 --> 00:48:06,910
Speaker 2: visits in the middle of the night to Ljana Karadzic,

975
00:48:06,989 --> 00:48:09,270
Speaker 2: the fugitive's wife, with the aim of rattling her with

976
00:48:09,310 --> 00:48:11,690
Speaker 2: a show of bravado about his imminent capture, in the

977
00:48:11,730 --> 00:48:13,529
Speaker 2: hope she would rush to warn him and give away

978
00:48:13,570 --> 00:48:17,380
Speaker 2: his location. Petraeus coded his Eddie Murphy routine after Murphy's

979
00:48:17,420 --> 00:48:20,860
Speaker 2: role as convict turned cop in the movie 24 Hours. However,

980
00:48:21,140 --> 00:48:23,950
Speaker 2: bulk in reality did not work like Hollywood. Liliana was

981
00:48:24,010 --> 00:48:25,890
Speaker 2: followed wherever she went and was only one of the

982
00:48:25,950 --> 00:48:28,910
Speaker 2: first targets of surveillance drones, a new toy U.S. Special

983
00:48:28,950 --> 00:48:31,290
Speaker 2: Forces were trying out in Bosnia, but she led them

984
00:48:31,350 --> 00:48:34,430
Speaker 2: on a wild goose chase. The Manhunters used every trick

985
00:48:34,450 --> 00:48:36,770
Speaker 2: they could think of, scanning the remote villages along the

986
00:48:36,810 --> 00:48:40,810
Speaker 2: Bosnia-Montenegro border for signs of unusual activity, internet logons in

987
00:48:40,830 --> 00:48:43,010
Speaker 2: the middle of the night, TV satellite dishes in otherwise

988
00:48:43,050 --> 00:48:47,050
Speaker 2: poor settlements, Newspaper subscriptions. The NSA was persuaded to waive

989
00:48:47,110 --> 00:48:50,310
Speaker 2: normal practice and allow intercept intelligence to be shared, unfiltered

990
00:48:50,330 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 2: and without delay, with the operational units tracking Karadzic in Bosnia.

991
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 2: In one of the more bizarre episodes of the chase,

992
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 2: Delta Force soldiers lay in wait for his convoy on

993
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:01,819
Speaker 2: a mountain road, one of them dressed in a guerrilla suit.

994
00:49:02,140 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 2: which had been flown in from the U.S. the previous day.

995
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:08,259
Speaker 2: The idea was that Karajic's bodyguards, known as the Preventiva,

996
00:49:08,500 --> 00:49:11,080
Speaker 2: would be dumbfounded and slow down their vehicle long enough

997
00:49:11,100 --> 00:49:13,610
Speaker 2: for the Delta Force ambushers to fire a specially designed

998
00:49:13,670 --> 00:49:16,489
Speaker 2: concussion grenade at the car doors to stun the passengers.

999
00:49:17,030 --> 00:49:19,950
Speaker 2: The daring scheme would have gone... The gorilla suit!

1000
00:49:20,660 --> 00:49:26,020
Speaker 1: This is like what who picks that we're gonna paralyze

1001
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:27,739
Speaker 1: him with random.

1002
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:34,100
Speaker 2: Humor with a family guy cutaway gag like what.

1003
00:49:33,900 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 1: This is like a fucking scooby-doo plan you thought that

1004
00:49:38,020 --> 00:49:41,299
Speaker 1: was gonna work huh Who are they putting in the

1005
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:41,910
Speaker 1: guerrilla suit?

1006
00:49:42,820 --> 00:49:45,310
Speaker 2: And of course, all of this is pointless. Like the

1007
00:49:45,350 --> 00:49:47,509
Speaker 2: whole tip off that a caravan was coming through this

1008
00:49:47,650 --> 00:49:52,009
Speaker 2: area was probably deliberately misleading information, like fed to them

1009
00:49:52,270 --> 00:49:54,810
Speaker 2: in order to get them to waste their time. Because

1010
00:49:54,910 --> 00:49:57,450
Speaker 2: Karadzic and his supporters love the fact that they are

1011
00:49:57,530 --> 00:50:00,509
Speaker 2: able to, they're just dunking on the US and the

1012
00:50:00,550 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 2: entire Western worlds, like surveillance and special forces apparatus, unable

1013
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:09,260
Speaker 2: to find this one man with crazy hair. his psychiatrist.

1014
00:50:09,420 --> 00:50:12,460
Speaker 1: They, they have like five backup guerrilla suits. They're like,

1015
00:50:12,500 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 1: don't worry, sir. If we don't scare him with the

1016
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 1: first gorilla.

1017
00:50:16,340 --> 00:50:18,370
Speaker 2: And again, this is similar to what happens with bin Laden,

1018
00:50:18,410 --> 00:50:21,090
Speaker 2: where he like goes into hiding and like the entire

1019
00:50:21,290 --> 00:50:23,969
Speaker 2: U S intelligence and special forces apparatus is hunting him

1020
00:50:24,030 --> 00:50:26,130
Speaker 2: in like Tora Bora. And we later realized like, nah,

1021
00:50:26,150 --> 00:50:27,830
Speaker 2: he just like went right to Pakistan. He let you

1022
00:50:27,850 --> 00:50:29,190
Speaker 2: like left. He left the country.

1023
00:50:29,770 --> 00:50:33,100
Speaker 1: Yeah. He was watching DVDs for like eight years.

1024
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:38,469
Speaker 2: He was watching Looney Tunes. Um, and, The thing is,

1025
00:50:38,550 --> 00:50:41,870
Speaker 2: Karadzic didn't, like, disappear, really. He, like, shaves his head

1026
00:50:41,890 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 2: because his hair is distinctive, and he grows a long,

1027
00:50:43,890 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 2: crazy Santa beard. But as soon as he can, he

1028
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 2: just goes to Serbia. He leaves Bosnia. And I guess

1029
00:50:49,140 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 2: they hadn't thought of that as a possibility that the

1030
00:50:51,420 --> 00:50:53,900
Speaker 2: Serb might go to Serbia. Like, they're like, well, he's

1031
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 2: got to be in Montenegro still. Like, no, he just

1032
00:50:56,680 --> 00:51:02,759
Speaker 2: went to Belgrade. Wow. Yeah, he spends some time, he's

1033
00:51:02,780 --> 00:51:04,540
Speaker 2: in rural villages and stuff for a while, but he

1034
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:07,470
Speaker 2: just like crossed the border. And while they're hunting him,

1035
00:51:07,570 --> 00:51:11,630
Speaker 2: he still is writing and publishing poetry specifically to dunk

1036
00:51:11,730 --> 00:51:14,350
Speaker 2: on them. In fact, during the height of Delta Force

1037
00:51:14,430 --> 00:51:17,090
Speaker 2: trying to find this man, he publishes a book of

1038
00:51:17,290 --> 00:51:21,990
Speaker 2: poetry just to humiliate US Special Forces. One chapter is titled,

1039
00:51:22,010 --> 00:51:28,660
Speaker 2: I Can Look For Myself. I mean, he's a monster,

1040
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:29,819
Speaker 2: but you got to respect that.

1041
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:37,779
Speaker 1: I mean, he's absolutely unquestionably a monster and like the U.S.

1042
00:51:37,860 --> 00:51:39,859
Speaker 2: Is so fucking embarrassing.

1043
00:51:39,890 --> 00:51:40,180
Speaker 4: The U.S.

1044
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:43,299
Speaker 1: Is so embarrassing. What an embarrassing place to be from.

1045
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:45,750
Speaker 2: Glad we spent all that money on Delta Force. Couldn't

1046
00:51:45,770 --> 00:51:46,790
Speaker 2: catch the poet.

1047
00:51:48,810 --> 00:51:49,210
Speaker 3: God.

1048
00:51:49,290 --> 00:51:53,710
Speaker 1: And it's because the pedophile president is like, maybe if

1049
00:51:53,750 --> 00:51:55,490
Speaker 1: we put on a gorilla suit, people will forget.

1050
00:51:55,530 --> 00:51:58,170
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe a gorilla suit. David Petraeus, get your brilliant

1051
00:51:58,210 --> 00:51:58,989
Speaker 2: mind down there.

1052
00:51:59,010 --> 00:52:00,610
Speaker 1: Oh my God.

1053
00:52:01,219 --> 00:52:03,609
Speaker 2: He also publishes a novel that sells out and does

1054
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:08,430
Speaker 2: really well while he's hiding. What is this? It's amazing.

1055
00:52:08,950 --> 00:52:11,770
Speaker 2: The trail goes cold, and after 9-11, most of the

1056
00:52:11,810 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 2: world moves on from obsessing over Serb war criminals as

1057
00:52:14,980 --> 00:52:17,340
Speaker 2: the U.S. takes the lessons it had learned failing to

1058
00:52:17,380 --> 00:52:20,400
Speaker 2: capture Radovan and applies them towards failing to capture Osama

1059
00:52:20,420 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 2: bin Laden. Meanwhile, Radovan was busy reinventing himself in Serbia.

1060
00:52:25,340 --> 00:52:28,150
Speaker 2: Prior to giving up power, his intelligence guys had furnished

1061
00:52:28,190 --> 00:52:30,969
Speaker 2: him with the real identity of a real dude to

1062
00:52:31,090 --> 00:52:33,509
Speaker 2: use as his fake identity. Like the real guy is

1063
00:52:33,550 --> 00:52:36,690
Speaker 2: named Dragan Dabic, and that's the name he takes, Dragan Dabic.

1064
00:52:37,130 --> 00:52:39,790
Speaker 2: And the real Dragan is a rural peasant who just like...

1065
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:42,839
Speaker 2: doesn't ever leave the small village he lives in. So like, well,

1066
00:52:42,890 --> 00:52:45,230
Speaker 2: no one's going to notice his identity being used by

1067
00:52:45,250 --> 00:52:45,629
Speaker 2: someone else.

1068
00:52:45,810 --> 00:52:47,150
Speaker 1: Renting out his identity?

1069
00:52:47,370 --> 00:52:49,130
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. I don't think he knows.

1070
00:52:49,590 --> 00:52:49,810
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1071
00:52:50,330 --> 00:52:51,130
Speaker 1: Okay.

1072
00:52:51,210 --> 00:52:53,210
Speaker 2: Because they find this guy and he's like, I don't know, man.

1073
00:52:53,230 --> 00:52:56,230
Speaker 2: I'm like a fucking peasant. I don't interact with the government.

1074
00:52:56,250 --> 00:52:57,190
Speaker 2: What are you talking about?

1075
00:52:57,210 --> 00:52:59,259
Speaker 1: It's like, wow, that's crazy.

1076
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 2: Wild. So now living under the name Dragan Dabic, Radovan

1077
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:10,319
Speaker 2: reinvents himself, right? And starts living openly in Belgrade. as

1078
00:53:10,380 --> 00:53:13,700
Speaker 2: an energy healer. He reinvents himself as a New Rage

1079
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:19,320
Speaker 2: guru and is like very prominent. No. Yeah.

1080
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:19,620
Speaker 1: No.

1081
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:23,050
Speaker 2: His last chapter is incredible, Jamie. You're not ready for this.

1082
00:53:23,290 --> 00:53:28,910
Speaker 1: No, you cannot pivot after committing a genocide. You cannot pivot.

1083
00:53:28,969 --> 00:53:31,890
Speaker 2: He does. He has a whole post-genocide career.

1084
00:53:32,370 --> 00:53:32,989
Speaker 1: Wow.

1085
00:53:34,590 --> 00:53:35,900
Speaker 2: As kind of a sex wizard.

1086
00:53:37,570 --> 00:53:40,319
Speaker 1: I hate this.

1087
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:47,319
Speaker 2: It's amazing stuff. Just wait, Jamie. I can't hype this

1088
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:51,150
Speaker 2: up enough, honestly. So in order to train up in

1089
00:53:51,170 --> 00:53:53,750
Speaker 2: the ways of Wu, in 2005, he shows up on

1090
00:53:53,770 --> 00:53:57,750
Speaker 2: the doorstep of Mina Minnick, who is a well-known spiritual

1091
00:53:57,790 --> 00:54:02,200
Speaker 2: healer and self-proclaimed clairvoyant. Despite the fact that she is

1092
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:05,759
Speaker 2: a clairvoyant, she does not recognize him as the massively

1093
00:54:05,820 --> 00:54:08,540
Speaker 2: famous war criminal who's just shaved his head.

1094
00:54:08,500 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 1: Oh no that's all part of the plan it's all

1095
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 1: part of the plan.

1096
00:54:12,540 --> 00:54:14,860
Speaker 2: On meeting him she describes him as a long bearded

1097
00:54:14,900 --> 00:54:16,980
Speaker 2: man with white hair who quote looked like a monk

1098
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:19,020
Speaker 2: who had done something wrong with a nun.

1099
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:22,140
Speaker 1: I guess that's one way to describe it's.

1100
00:54:22,020 --> 00:54:28,050
Speaker 2: A great description sure why not sure so Radavan, as Dragon,

1101
00:54:28,170 --> 00:54:30,710
Speaker 2: claimed to be a former therapist who just returned from

1102
00:54:30,750 --> 00:54:33,529
Speaker 2: New York City after divorcing his wife. And she'd kept

1103
00:54:33,550 --> 00:54:36,049
Speaker 2: his credentials and diploma, so he didn't have them to show.

1104
00:54:36,270 --> 00:54:40,210
Speaker 2: But trust him, he had them. Like, he has diplomas

1105
00:54:40,270 --> 00:54:42,710
Speaker 2: and stuff. He just can't furnish them because of his

1106
00:54:42,770 --> 00:54:47,149
Speaker 2: bitch-ass wife, right? And Meenik trusts him. Meenik's like, sure,

1107
00:54:47,190 --> 00:54:48,390
Speaker 2: that makes sense, right?

1108
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:52,400
Speaker 1: She sounds awful, man. I'm so sorry. Come on in.

1109
00:54:54,290 --> 00:54:56,610
Speaker 2: Given that Minik and everyone in the world of alternative

1110
00:54:56,630 --> 00:54:59,350
Speaker 2: healing in Belgrade were the standard kinds of cranks you'd expect,

1111
00:54:59,670 --> 00:55:02,290
Speaker 2: his utter lack of credentials and background were not remarked

1112
00:55:02,370 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 2: on by anyone in a significant manner. Per the Guardian,

1113
00:55:05,660 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 2: Dabik was eager to learn the ways of a Balkan seer,

1114
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 2: including the use of a visak, a pendulum that is

1115
00:55:10,780 --> 00:55:13,540
Speaker 2: supposed to identify disturbances in the energy field around sick

1116
00:55:13,620 --> 00:55:16,339
Speaker 2: or troubled patients. This is kind of like dowsing, right?

1117
00:55:17,060 --> 00:55:19,650
Speaker 2: Dabik soon acquired his own visak, and his career as

1118
00:55:19,690 --> 00:55:22,819
Speaker 2: a mystic healer blossomed. He adopted the unserved middle name

1119
00:55:22,860 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 2: of David and used it increasingly as a professional moniker.

1120
00:55:25,780 --> 00:55:28,719
Speaker 2: He also set up a website called SciHelp Energy, which

1121
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:31,279
Speaker 2: advertised the David Wellbeing Program.

1122
00:55:31,739 --> 00:55:33,590
Speaker 1: He just renamed himself David?

1123
00:55:34,250 --> 00:55:37,790
Speaker 2: Well, Minnick suggests the name David, right? And I'll tell

1124
00:55:37,830 --> 00:55:40,810
Speaker 2: you why. And also, Minnick lets Dabik stay in his

1125
00:55:40,870 --> 00:55:44,440
Speaker 2: apartment and couch surf while he's training this genocide guy.

1126
00:55:44,460 --> 00:55:46,760
Speaker 2: This is like... This thing, it's.

1127
00:55:46,620 --> 00:55:50,940
Speaker 1: Just always the, I'm like, where's Luigi?

1128
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:51,940
Speaker 2: Can we get.

1129
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:54,890
Speaker 1: Luigi in here? Like, how is this guy alive, much

1130
00:55:54,930 --> 00:55:59,310
Speaker 1: less rebranding as David? Like, this is ridiculous.

1131
00:55:59,350 --> 00:56:03,260
Speaker 2: Great question. So from Stern's book, He explained that, Minnick,

1132
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:05,500
Speaker 2: explained that King David was a seer and the first

1133
00:56:05,620 --> 00:56:08,790
Speaker 2: bioenergetics practitioner. When he was very old, he used to

1134
00:56:08,830 --> 00:56:12,030
Speaker 2: recover his vital energy by laying down along with young girls,

1135
00:56:12,190 --> 00:56:15,340
Speaker 2: all naked, but it was completely clear and innocent, he said.

1136
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:17,520
Speaker 2: And he He's.

1137
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:23,480
Speaker 1: Back to the bumblebee shit. In the context of his life,

1138
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:27,910
Speaker 1: it makes the whole genocidal dictator thing seem like just

1139
00:56:27,989 --> 00:56:29,930
Speaker 1: a weird detour for him.

1140
00:56:29,950 --> 00:56:33,230
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is for him a detour. And Minnick is

1141
00:56:33,310 --> 00:56:37,350
Speaker 2: also a fucking amazing crank because he's telling Stern like, yeah,

1142
00:56:37,370 --> 00:56:38,930
Speaker 2: I told him to name himself after King David because

1143
00:56:38,950 --> 00:56:41,210
Speaker 2: he would lie down with naked girls to recharge his energy,

1144
00:56:41,230 --> 00:56:43,790
Speaker 2: but it was totally innocent. And then she writes, he

1145
00:56:43,830 --> 00:56:45,610
Speaker 2: told me I would find this story in the Psalms,

1146
00:56:45,710 --> 00:56:48,750
Speaker 2: but I was unable to find it. It's because it's

1147
00:56:48,810 --> 00:56:53,720
Speaker 2: not in there. It's not in there, Jessica. That's just nonsense.

1148
00:56:54,239 --> 00:57:00,680
Speaker 1: Jessica. Jessica. Jessica. She's not seeing out.

1149
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:06,060
Speaker 2: Yeah. Over the years, Karajic became a noted Reiki practitioner

1150
00:57:06,180 --> 00:57:09,229
Speaker 2: and consulted in a private fertility clinic. At one point,

1151
00:57:09,310 --> 00:57:12,270
Speaker 2: Russia Today, before he's found out, Russia Today films a

1152
00:57:12,350 --> 00:57:15,650
Speaker 2: documentary about his miraculous healings at the office of a

1153
00:57:15,710 --> 00:57:18,290
Speaker 2: doctor that he worked for. So he's going to this

1154
00:57:18,330 --> 00:57:21,430
Speaker 2: doctor's office to do energy healings on actual sick people,

1155
00:57:21,470 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 2: and he heals a sick kid. Well, he's one of

1156
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:27,280
Speaker 2: those wanted men in the world.

1157
00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:29,100
Speaker 3: No, he doesn't.

1158
00:57:29,140 --> 00:57:29,870
Speaker 2: No one catches it.

1159
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 1: Yes.

1160
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:38,410
Speaker 2: No one notices this. And the only thing any of

1161
00:57:38,450 --> 00:57:41,030
Speaker 2: his fellow energy healers noted as odd about their new

1162
00:57:41,110 --> 00:57:44,380
Speaker 2: friend was that Dragon slash Radovan always had at least

1163
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 2: five cell phones on him that rang constantly. And he

1164
00:57:47,780 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 2: would never take the calls. He would just say, I'll

1165
00:57:49,780 --> 00:57:51,520
Speaker 2: call you back. And put them up. And they're like,

1166
00:57:51,780 --> 00:57:53,980
Speaker 2: that's weird. Must just love cell phones.

1167
00:57:54,740 --> 00:57:58,280
Speaker 1: He's moving like Robert Durst.

1168
00:57:58,320 --> 00:57:59,980
Speaker 2: Just the sketchiest man alive.

1169
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:04,090
Speaker 1: Like, this is good. It's crazy.

1170
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:05,110
Speaker 2: It's so funny.

1171
00:58:05,140 --> 00:58:06,580
Speaker 1: It's so funny.

1172
00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:12,860
Speaker 2: Over the years, except for the genocide. It's really funny, though,

1173
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:13,300
Speaker 2: what he does.

1174
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:14,280
Speaker 1: With the second act.

1175
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:14,780
Speaker 2: Third act.

1176
00:58:14,820 --> 00:58:18,970
Speaker 1: Let's not forget the genocide. He just shaves his head,

1177
00:58:19,490 --> 00:58:20,370
Speaker 1: grows a beard.

1178
00:58:20,390 --> 00:58:22,070
Speaker 2: Gets a Santa beard.

1179
00:58:22,090 --> 00:58:27,510
Speaker 1: Yeah, to literally cosplay as Santa and call yourself David.

1180
00:58:27,530 --> 00:58:28,530
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1181
00:58:29,660 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 1: And then other than that, act as guilty as you

1182
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:33,020
Speaker 1: fucking want.

1183
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:35,420
Speaker 2: The most sketchy man alive.

1184
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:38,930
Speaker 1: It doesn't seem like he's even really making much of

1185
00:58:39,010 --> 00:58:39,490
Speaker 1: an effort.

1186
00:58:39,670 --> 00:58:39,990
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1187
00:58:40,090 --> 00:58:40,290
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1188
00:58:40,610 --> 00:58:44,870
Speaker 2: He's barely hiding. Over the years, Radovan expanded his offerings

1189
00:58:44,910 --> 00:58:50,400
Speaker 2: to include acupuncture, homeopathy, and something he repeatedly refers to,

1190
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:56,150
Speaker 2: but never explains called quantum medicine. He also sold magical amulets, uh,

1191
00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:58,020
Speaker 2: He partners up at one point.

1192
00:58:58,280 --> 00:58:59,280
Speaker 1: That's crazy.

1193
00:58:59,550 --> 00:59:00,550
Speaker 4: That's crazy.

1194
00:59:01,030 --> 00:59:06,470
Speaker 3: As somebody who gets acupuncture and loves it, my acupuncture

1195
00:59:06,490 --> 00:59:08,090
Speaker 3: doctor had to do so much schooling.

1196
00:59:08,110 --> 00:59:09,870
Speaker 2: Maybe he did a genocide. No way to know.

1197
00:59:10,550 --> 00:59:12,410
Speaker 4: She did so much schooling.

1198
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:15,550
Speaker 2: How much blood is on her hands, Sophie? That's what

1199
00:59:15,610 --> 00:59:17,600
Speaker 2: I want to know. How much blood is on her hands?

1200
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:20,180
Speaker 4: She had to do so much schooling and so many

1201
00:59:20,220 --> 00:59:20,700
Speaker 4: student loans.

1202
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:26,300
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, schooling. She was leading a militia, Sophie. Wake up.

1203
00:59:26,860 --> 00:59:29,370
Speaker 1: No, David is a great acupuncturist.

1204
00:59:29,730 --> 00:59:31,070
Speaker 4: No, he isn't.

1205
00:59:31,650 --> 00:59:35,750
Speaker 2: Better known for his other work. He also partnered up

1206
00:59:35,770 --> 00:59:39,090
Speaker 2: with a sex therapist named Savo Bolshevik, with whom he

1207
00:59:39,130 --> 00:59:41,510
Speaker 2: works on several different- I hate all this. I'm scared.

1208
00:59:41,710 --> 00:59:42,350
Speaker 1: I'm scared.

1209
00:59:42,370 --> 00:59:45,510
Speaker 2: I'm scared. It's not going where you think.

1210
00:59:45,990 --> 00:59:49,040
Speaker 1: Does everyone have their Behind the Bastards bingo cards out?

1211
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:51,400
Speaker 1: Because we just hit mysterious sex therapist.

1212
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:53,180
Speaker 2: It's black. We did it all.

1213
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:57,860
Speaker 1: It's like- I'm scared. Oh, my God.

1214
00:59:57,900 --> 01:00:03,490
Speaker 2: Like, white-collar criminal, political leader, medical crank, genocide committer, and

1215
01:00:03,690 --> 01:00:06,590
Speaker 2: fake doctor of every imaginable kind. Incredible.

1216
01:00:06,610 --> 01:00:10,330
Speaker 1: Failed artist. Like, just, yeah.

1217
01:00:10,390 --> 01:00:12,970
Speaker 2: He pitched a no-hitter in terms of Bastard's Ball.

1218
01:00:13,050 --> 01:00:15,440
Speaker 3: In case you're doing the bingo and you didn't get

1219
01:00:15,460 --> 01:00:17,380
Speaker 3: your space, Robert, no!

1220
01:00:17,580 --> 01:00:19,860
Speaker 4: Okay, now everybody's got to read that.

1221
01:00:19,900 --> 01:00:20,140
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1222
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:24,320
Speaker 1: Oh, and we and you you you hit Grand Rapids today, too.

1223
01:00:24,580 --> 01:00:24,900
Speaker 3: Really?

1224
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:25,280
Speaker 4: We did.

1225
01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:28,570
Speaker 2: We already mentioned Grand Rapids. This is an all timer already.

1226
01:00:30,190 --> 01:00:31,310
Speaker 1: Wow. Oh, my God.

1227
01:00:31,710 --> 01:00:33,550
Speaker 2: This this I got to tell you about this sex

1228
01:00:33,590 --> 01:00:37,550
Speaker 2: therapist because he works with Savo Bojovic on several inventions

1229
01:00:37,610 --> 01:00:40,530
Speaker 2: and theories to cure sexual dysfunction. And I found a

1230
01:00:40,570 --> 01:00:43,290
Speaker 2: New York Times article by a reporter who interviewed Savick

1231
01:00:43,750 --> 01:00:47,410
Speaker 2: after Radovan was caught. Because a lot of these healers

1232
01:00:47,430 --> 01:00:49,930
Speaker 2: get interviewed not just by Jessica Stern, and they're like,

1233
01:00:49,950 --> 01:00:54,410
Speaker 2: did you not notice anything? And they never did. But

1234
01:00:54,450 --> 01:00:57,050
Speaker 2: this article is incredible because he's talking to all these

1235
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:00,340
Speaker 2: cranks who were partnered with a genocide guy and didn't

1236
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:02,560
Speaker 2: know it. Here's one quote from that when he's talking

1237
01:01:02,580 --> 01:01:05,510
Speaker 2: about the sex therapist. He, the sex therapist, explained that

1238
01:01:05,550 --> 01:01:07,890
Speaker 2: his current work is a study of his nation's penises.

1239
01:01:08,230 --> 01:01:10,780
Speaker 2: Before he would discuss Dabic, he insisted on walking me

1240
01:01:11,140 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 2: and my interpreter through a scrapbook with some 2,000 Polaroid

1241
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:18,780
Speaker 2: close-ups of middle-aged, mainly Serbian penises. And look, we all

1242
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:21,760
Speaker 2: have a book of middle-aged Serbian men's penises somewhere in

1243
01:01:21,780 --> 01:01:24,360
Speaker 2: the house, but you don't take it out immediately as

1244
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 2: soon as a journalist shows up. You make them earn

1245
01:01:26,540 --> 01:01:27,640
Speaker 2: it a little bit, right?

1246
01:01:28,300 --> 01:01:32,790
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't. I think maybe the... Only thing

1247
01:01:32,830 --> 01:01:35,490
Speaker 1: we can say for him here is he has a

1248
01:01:35,550 --> 01:01:39,470
Speaker 1: fantastic eye for credulous dipshits. He really does.

1249
01:01:39,590 --> 01:01:41,330
Speaker 2: He's amazing at that.

1250
01:01:41,370 --> 01:01:45,640
Speaker 1: Can spot them from a mile away. He's like, oh,

1251
01:01:45,740 --> 01:01:50,520
Speaker 1: the guy with the... 2,000 pictures of cocks in his house.

1252
01:01:50,580 --> 01:01:51,900
Speaker 2: Middle-aged dicks.

1253
01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:52,620
Speaker 1: Wow.

1254
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:54,940
Speaker 2: And every line in that New York Times article is

1255
01:01:55,140 --> 01:01:58,520
Speaker 2: funnier than the other because immediately after that is, Bojovic

1256
01:01:58,560 --> 01:02:00,820
Speaker 2: said he had recently proved that Serbian men can have

1257
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:03,860
Speaker 2: active sex until the age of 102 and Serbian women

1258
01:02:03,900 --> 01:02:06,090
Speaker 2: until 84.

1259
01:02:06,090 --> 01:02:06,470
Speaker 1: Sir.

1260
01:02:07,610 --> 01:02:07,800
Speaker 2: What?

1261
01:02:07,870 --> 01:02:08,410
Speaker 1: Okay.

1262
01:02:08,470 --> 01:02:08,850
Speaker 3: Sir.

1263
01:02:09,150 --> 01:02:10,570
Speaker 4: Sexist, sir.

1264
01:02:11,150 --> 01:02:13,470
Speaker 1: Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you.

1265
01:02:13,490 --> 01:02:16,410
Speaker 4: Sorry that nobody wanted to see your old man dick.

1266
01:02:17,260 --> 01:02:20,380
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know who else can continue having sex until

1267
01:02:20,420 --> 01:02:22,800
Speaker 2: the age of 102? The products and services. You, if

1268
01:02:22,820 --> 01:02:25,080
Speaker 2: you buy the products advertised on this podcast.

1269
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:27,540
Speaker 1: Allegedly.

1270
01:02:34,520 --> 01:02:36,800
Speaker 2: We're back, and I have to continue reading from that

1271
01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:40,110
Speaker 2: amazing New York Times article talking about this sex therapist

1272
01:02:40,130 --> 01:02:43,690
Speaker 2: who partnered with Radovan. He seemed especially interested in treating

1273
01:02:43,850 --> 01:02:47,320
Speaker 2: strong-blooded women who cannot live without sex. For them, he

1274
01:02:47,340 --> 01:02:50,120
Speaker 2: has invented a special device called an applicator, which can

1275
01:02:50,180 --> 01:02:52,870
Speaker 2: bring on a gentle orgasm and which can also be marketed.

1276
01:02:52,910 --> 01:02:58,170
Speaker 2: He insisted on telling me despite my best efforts to

1277
01:02:58,230 --> 01:02:58,830
Speaker 2: stop him.

1278
01:02:59,910 --> 01:03:00,150
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1279
01:03:01,110 --> 01:03:02,410
Speaker 2: And this journalist is like, I don't want to know

1280
01:03:02,470 --> 01:03:04,490
Speaker 2: about this. I want to talk about the genocide.

1281
01:03:04,510 --> 01:03:05,230
Speaker 4: He's like, no, no, no.

1282
01:03:05,470 --> 01:03:07,550
Speaker 2: We are going through the sex stuff first.

1283
01:03:08,620 --> 01:03:12,380
Speaker 1: You can't really understand the orgasm torture machine if you

1284
01:03:12,420 --> 01:03:14,740
Speaker 1: don't look at all 2,000 penises first.

1285
01:03:15,100 --> 01:03:19,000
Speaker 2: You need to read the text. Dragon slash Radovan worked

1286
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 2: with this guy to cure impotent men by putting his

1287
01:03:22,410 --> 01:03:25,730
Speaker 2: hands on their junk, right? Because he has healing hands.

1288
01:03:26,090 --> 01:03:28,470
Speaker 2: To continue from that article, and this is the sex

1289
01:03:28,490 --> 01:03:31,390
Speaker 2: therapist again. He put his hands close to my cheeks

1290
01:03:31,450 --> 01:03:34,110
Speaker 2: and I felt a terrible energy of warmth, Bojovic said.

1291
01:03:34,470 --> 01:03:37,370
Speaker 2: Dabik's warm hands gave Bojovic an idea. He put some

1292
01:03:37,470 --> 01:03:40,570
Speaker 2: sluggish sperm on a microscope slide. I was holding the

1293
01:03:40,610 --> 01:03:42,870
Speaker 2: glass slide and he was putting his hands above and below,

1294
01:03:42,930 --> 01:03:45,350
Speaker 2: Bojovic said. He kept them there for some time, and

1295
01:03:45,370 --> 01:03:47,210
Speaker 2: then I put the slide under the microscope, and I

1296
01:03:47,250 --> 01:03:51,110
Speaker 2: was nicely surprised to see the sperm really moving faster. So,

1297
01:03:51,450 --> 01:03:55,210
Speaker 2: Bojavec and Davik successfully repeat this slide experiment ten times.

1298
01:03:55,730 --> 01:03:57,740
Speaker 2: I had the intention of developing a method in which

1299
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:00,700
Speaker 2: Davik could heal our patients, holding one hand under the

1300
01:04:00,740 --> 01:04:04,120
Speaker 2: testicles and one on the top of the testicles, Bojavec explained.

1301
01:04:04,640 --> 01:04:09,360
Speaker 2: That's what Radovan's doing? He's cupping old men's balls to

1302
01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:11,830
Speaker 2: use his magical powers to make their sperm livelier?

1303
01:04:11,850 --> 01:04:13,860
Speaker 1: Did I hate this guy? Amazing.

1304
01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:20,580
Speaker 2: He's my favorite. I'm sorry. Not the genocide stuff, but

1305
01:04:20,620 --> 01:04:22,740
Speaker 2: that's great. Because when I heard he was doing sex

1306
01:04:22,780 --> 01:04:24,760
Speaker 2: therapy work, I was like, oh, he must have committed

1307
01:04:24,780 --> 01:04:27,820
Speaker 2: some horrible sex crimes. No, he's just cupping old men's

1308
01:04:27,910 --> 01:04:31,870
Speaker 2: balls to shoot energy into their sperm.

1309
01:04:32,050 --> 01:04:35,990
Speaker 1: I think I kind of fully left my body at sluggish.

1310
01:04:36,030 --> 01:04:37,470
Speaker 2: Just disassociate.

1311
01:04:38,100 --> 01:04:40,900
Speaker 1: I think I kind of went somewhere else for a while.

1312
01:04:41,140 --> 01:04:44,920
Speaker 1: I don't know what. I think I'm back then. When

1313
01:04:44,940 --> 01:04:52,180
Speaker 1: you said sluggish sperm with like absolute like certainty of like,

1314
01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:53,200
Speaker 1: what do you mean?

1315
01:04:53,240 --> 01:04:55,400
Speaker 2: It's some of the funniest shit I've read in my life.

1316
01:04:55,460 --> 01:04:57,520
Speaker 2: That New York Times article should have won a Pulitzer.

1317
01:04:57,840 --> 01:05:01,160
Speaker 2: Like it should win every Pulitzer every year. Keep giving

1318
01:05:01,220 --> 01:05:06,110
Speaker 2: it to that journalist. I couldn't be happier.

1319
01:05:07,480 --> 01:05:10,300
Speaker 1: Like, what kind of damages do you even ask for,

1320
01:05:10,460 --> 01:05:11,620
Speaker 1: having reported that?

1321
01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:14,900
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Like, just give him a year's salary as

1322
01:05:14,940 --> 01:05:19,150
Speaker 2: an apology for making him talk to these people. My goodness.

1323
01:05:19,210 --> 01:05:23,950
Speaker 1: That's, like... Yeah. Yeah, he's just sort of... It seems

1324
01:05:23,970 --> 01:05:27,640
Speaker 1: like he's been... Like, he's receiving some sort of... I mean, obviously,

1325
01:05:27,660 --> 01:05:31,760
Speaker 1: he should not be loose... But it does feel like

1326
01:05:32,080 --> 01:05:36,190
Speaker 1: in some in some way he's serving a life sentence

1327
01:05:36,450 --> 01:05:38,330
Speaker 1: in this like fever dream.

1328
01:05:39,210 --> 01:05:39,750
Speaker 2: Maybe.

1329
01:05:39,810 --> 01:05:40,510
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1330
01:05:40,650 --> 01:05:42,970
Speaker 2: I think he loves this. I think he's way happier

1331
01:05:43,010 --> 01:05:46,360
Speaker 2: doing this than being a dictator. Yeah.

1332
01:05:46,380 --> 01:05:48,880
Speaker 1: I wish he had found his passion for cupping old

1333
01:05:48,900 --> 01:05:50,920
Speaker 1: men's balls as he were younger.

1334
01:05:51,140 --> 01:05:51,470
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1335
01:05:51,880 --> 01:05:53,940
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure you can do that. He lived in

1336
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:55,840
Speaker 1: New York City. Come on.

1337
01:05:55,940 --> 01:05:57,820
Speaker 2: If he hadn't done a genocide, he would have just

1338
01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:00,450
Speaker 2: been on my podcast behind the guys who cup old

1339
01:06:00,510 --> 01:06:02,490
Speaker 2: men's balls for strange reasons.

1340
01:06:02,770 --> 01:06:04,610
Speaker 1: That's behind the paywall, yeah.

1341
01:06:04,830 --> 01:06:09,040
Speaker 2: Launching in December, everybody. One of the things I find

1342
01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:11,380
Speaker 2: most interesting about this story is how easy it was

1343
01:06:11,420 --> 01:06:14,260
Speaker 2: for the most wanted man in all of Europe to

1344
01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:17,910
Speaker 2: hide in a fairly high profile way, working closely with

1345
01:06:17,990 --> 01:06:19,970
Speaker 2: a whole community of people who would have seen him

1346
01:06:20,050 --> 01:06:23,370
Speaker 2: on TV constantly during the war years. And that New

1347
01:06:23,390 --> 01:06:26,250
Speaker 2: York Times investigation has a great theory as to why

1348
01:06:26,350 --> 01:06:30,270
Speaker 2: none of these weird energy healer freaks recognize the genocide

1349
01:06:30,310 --> 01:06:33,530
Speaker 2: guy in their midst. Quote, The world of alternative medicine

1350
01:06:33,570 --> 01:06:35,370
Speaker 2: turns out to be a brilliant refuge for a man

1351
01:06:35,410 --> 01:06:37,880
Speaker 2: with something to hide. Every so-called healer I met in

1352
01:06:37,910 --> 01:06:41,600
Speaker 2: Belgrade seemed curious about just one thing, his own healing method.

1353
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:45,180
Speaker 2: Expressing the mildest interest in Visak technique or energy fields

1354
01:06:45,220 --> 01:06:48,460
Speaker 2: would set off hours of one-way conversation. Jansic, the man

1355
01:06:48,500 --> 01:06:51,440
Speaker 2: who mastered energy fields, remembered Dabic as someone who was

1356
01:06:51,480 --> 01:06:54,560
Speaker 2: always asking after Jansic's work but rarely spoke about himself.

1357
01:06:54,910 --> 01:06:56,710
Speaker 2: He would never sit down and eat with us, John

1358
01:06:56,750 --> 01:06:59,070
Speaker 2: Sick recalled. And so the theory is that none of

1359
01:06:59,090 --> 01:07:01,070
Speaker 2: them noticed this guy was the most famous dude in

1360
01:07:01,090 --> 01:07:05,600
Speaker 2: the country because they're all narcissist fucking woo weirdos who

1361
01:07:05,660 --> 01:07:08,000
Speaker 2: are only interested in their own grifts. And as long

1362
01:07:08,040 --> 01:07:10,060
Speaker 2: as he never talked about himself, they didn't ask.

1363
01:07:11,120 --> 01:07:12,740
Speaker 1: I was going to say, I mean, it is like

1364
01:07:12,760 --> 01:07:15,670
Speaker 1: he just had to find kind of a dozen credulous

1365
01:07:16,550 --> 01:07:21,710
Speaker 1: weirdos and you can kind of move. Man, I've really... The.

1366
01:07:21,730 --> 01:07:22,510
Speaker 2: Perfect place to hide.

1367
01:07:22,530 --> 01:07:22,790
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1368
01:07:24,550 --> 01:07:25,540
Speaker 2: It's genius, really?

1369
01:07:26,800 --> 01:07:31,840
Speaker 1: As a former woo-dabbler, it's a bad look. It's a

1370
01:07:31,900 --> 01:07:32,380
Speaker 1: bad look.

1371
01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:34,360
Speaker 2: It's a bad look. It's a bad look.

1372
01:07:35,450 --> 01:07:40,350
Speaker 1: When the Santa-looking motherfucker cupping your balls turns out to

1373
01:07:40,390 --> 01:07:44,490
Speaker 1: be a genocide architect.

1374
01:07:45,510 --> 01:07:48,490
Speaker 2: I'll say this, Jamie. If Hitler had escaped the war

1375
01:07:49,070 --> 01:07:52,030
Speaker 2: and lived in peace in another country for another 20

1376
01:07:52,030 --> 01:07:54,500
Speaker 2: or 30 years and had decent health, which he wouldn't have.

1377
01:07:54,520 --> 01:07:55,940
Speaker 2: He was very sick by the end of the war anyway.

1378
01:07:56,240 --> 01:07:58,610
Speaker 2: But if he had... He would have done something like this.

1379
01:07:58,790 --> 01:08:00,550
Speaker 2: I think he would have become some sort of weird

1380
01:08:00,590 --> 01:08:02,150
Speaker 2: energy healer or some shit.

1381
01:08:02,390 --> 01:08:05,590
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that genuinely, again, not to bring

1382
01:08:05,650 --> 01:08:12,880
Speaker 1: it back to fucking W, but if you outlive your

1383
01:08:12,900 --> 01:08:15,640
Speaker 1: war crimes, it seems like you kind of go to

1384
01:08:15,660 --> 01:08:20,840
Speaker 1: this kind of creepy retirement, this creepy little side quest.

1385
01:08:21,590 --> 01:08:23,670
Speaker 2: I think the one ethical use I could find for

1386
01:08:23,710 --> 01:08:26,640
Speaker 2: generative AI would be if we could identify the people

1387
01:08:26,700 --> 01:08:29,760
Speaker 2: who have like the genocide dictator thing. And you could

1388
01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:32,960
Speaker 2: create like a fake like army of fans that are

1389
01:08:32,979 --> 01:08:35,840
Speaker 2: just bots to encourage their side career so they never

1390
01:08:35,860 --> 01:08:39,460
Speaker 2: get into politics. Like we might really avoid some horrors.

1391
01:08:39,740 --> 01:08:40,200
Speaker 4: Incredible.

1392
01:08:40,240 --> 01:08:43,630
Speaker 1: Can we just make like a shell Juilliard thing?

1393
01:08:44,150 --> 01:08:48,019
Speaker 2: Yeah, fake Juilliard for people who might do genocide.

1394
01:08:48,320 --> 01:08:51,380
Speaker 1: Yeah, for mid-genocide candidates.

1395
01:08:51,420 --> 01:08:52,860
Speaker 2: Might help. I don't know.

1396
01:08:52,860 --> 01:08:53,629
Speaker 3: All right.

1397
01:08:53,630 --> 01:08:54,309
Speaker 1: That's it.

1398
01:08:54,310 --> 01:08:58,099
Speaker 2: Yeah. He also, I should note, held hid very well

1399
01:08:58,189 --> 01:09:02,099
Speaker 2: even outside the confines of the energy healing subculture per

1400
01:09:02,120 --> 01:09:05,160
Speaker 2: the guardian quote he also started visiting his local bar

1401
01:09:05,260 --> 01:09:08,860
Speaker 2: the ludacuca madhouse a smoke-filled rough-edged place that appealed to

1402
01:09:08,900 --> 01:09:12,180
Speaker 2: a shifting crowd of impoverished war veterans bosnian serbs and

1403
01:09:12,200 --> 01:09:17,410
Speaker 2: montenegrins it served country wine Plum brandy and pungent, undiluted nationalism.

1404
01:09:17,550 --> 01:09:19,960
Speaker 2: On the wood-paneled walls were pictures of the Serb modern

1405
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:23,479
Speaker 2: nationalist pantheon, with pride of place reserved for Radovan Karadzic.

1406
01:09:23,880 --> 01:09:25,980
Speaker 2: On at least one occasion, he was persuaded to pick

1407
01:09:26,060 --> 01:09:28,680
Speaker 2: up a gusla, the single-stringed fiddle of the region, and

1408
01:09:28,720 --> 01:09:31,390
Speaker 2: perform an epic Serb ballad under a framed portrait of

1409
01:09:31,430 --> 01:09:33,890
Speaker 2: himself at the height of his power, yet no one

1410
01:09:33,970 --> 01:09:37,510
Speaker 2: recognized him. Amazing. Amazing.

1411
01:09:37,530 --> 01:09:43,009
Speaker 1: I mean, yes, but also, you could say, you could say...

1412
01:09:43,410 --> 01:09:47,519
Speaker 1: You could say zero cultural impact. Zero cultural impact.

1413
01:09:48,040 --> 01:09:50,400
Speaker 2: Sure, sure. You could say that. Or you could say

1414
01:09:50,740 --> 01:09:53,280
Speaker 2: we all owe the writers of Superman an apology because

1415
01:09:53,320 --> 01:09:56,059
Speaker 2: maybe Clark Kent could really successfully hide just by putting

1416
01:09:56,080 --> 01:09:59,189
Speaker 2: on glasses. Maybe it is that simple. Most people are

1417
01:09:59,310 --> 01:10:00,230
Speaker 2: not paying attention.

1418
01:10:00,270 --> 01:10:02,330
Speaker 1: I was going to say, you really do kind of

1419
01:10:02,410 --> 01:10:04,590
Speaker 1: forget how foolish a person can be.

1420
01:10:07,420 --> 01:10:10,060
Speaker 2: We spend 90% of our days asleep pretty much, right?

1421
01:10:10,100 --> 01:10:17,000
Speaker 2: Like everyone's zooming through on autopilot. So Radaban slash Dragon

1422
01:10:17,120 --> 01:10:19,620
Speaker 2: was having a fine time as an energy healer in

1423
01:10:19,660 --> 01:10:25,080
Speaker 2: General Cook. There's more? Yeah, oh, there's more. In mid-2007,

1424
01:10:25,160 --> 01:10:27,500
Speaker 2: one of his doctor friends introduced him to executives at

1425
01:10:27,580 --> 01:10:31,360
Speaker 2: Cali Vita, which despite its name and California-centric branding, is

1426
01:10:31,400 --> 01:10:35,170
Speaker 2: a Connecticut-based MLM that sells health supplements. He became their

1427
01:10:35,229 --> 01:10:37,690
Speaker 2: first sales representative in Belgrade and was for a time

1428
01:10:37,770 --> 01:10:40,820
Speaker 2: quite successful. He gets into the MLM, like every bastard

1429
01:10:40,920 --> 01:10:43,380
Speaker 2: thing this guy did. It's amazing.

1430
01:10:43,780 --> 01:10:46,500
Speaker 1: He became a Lululemon girl.

1431
01:10:47,200 --> 01:10:47,599
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1432
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:50,090
Speaker 1: It's incredible stuff. This guy.

1433
01:10:51,410 --> 01:10:53,570
Speaker 2: He did it all. He did it all. Unfortunately, that

1434
01:10:53,590 --> 01:10:55,660
Speaker 2: includes genocide, but he did it all.

1435
01:10:56,729 --> 01:10:59,510
Speaker 1: He's on his second post-genocide pivot.

1436
01:10:59,530 --> 01:11:00,550
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1437
01:11:01,390 --> 01:11:03,850
Speaker 2: On the evening of... And he would have pivoted further,

1438
01:11:03,950 --> 01:11:04,310
Speaker 2: I'm sure.

1439
01:11:04,330 --> 01:11:05,970
Speaker 1: What do they sell? What do they sell?

1440
01:11:06,510 --> 01:11:08,170
Speaker 2: It's like supplements. They're selling supplements.

1441
01:11:08,189 --> 01:11:08,470
Speaker 1: Of course.

1442
01:11:08,490 --> 01:11:10,490
Speaker 2: Oh, okay. It's like a lot of stock photos of

1443
01:11:10,550 --> 01:11:12,150
Speaker 2: California people and pills.

1444
01:11:12,810 --> 01:11:13,430
Speaker 3: Yeah. Sure.

1445
01:11:13,530 --> 01:11:16,990
Speaker 2: On the evening of July 18th, 2008, Dragan Dabic was

1446
01:11:17,090 --> 01:11:20,210
Speaker 2: forced to go on the run again. Pro-Western reformers had

1447
01:11:20,250 --> 01:11:23,150
Speaker 2: started winning elections in Serbia, and the people who'd protected

1448
01:11:23,189 --> 01:11:25,890
Speaker 2: him are not going to be in power anymore, or

1449
01:11:25,930 --> 01:11:27,630
Speaker 2: at least not enough of them, and they warn him, like,

1450
01:11:27,689 --> 01:11:29,410
Speaker 2: we can't keep hiding you in the capital.

1451
01:11:29,950 --> 01:11:30,070
Speaker 1: So.

1452
01:11:30,960 --> 01:11:33,060
Speaker 2: And these people were unaware that he had actually already

1453
01:11:33,100 --> 01:11:36,380
Speaker 2: been tracked down. And what finally blows his spot is

1454
01:11:36,439 --> 01:11:38,580
Speaker 2: not the fact that he's living a public life as

1455
01:11:38,620 --> 01:11:41,900
Speaker 2: a famous healer. It's that his younger brother, Luca... kills

1456
01:11:41,920 --> 01:11:44,460
Speaker 2: a lady with his car and like calls his brother

1457
01:11:44,660 --> 01:11:48,220
Speaker 2: on a burner phone and is like, hey, I need advice.

1458
01:11:48,280 --> 01:11:50,650
Speaker 2: And people are like, why is the brother of the

1459
01:11:50,689 --> 01:11:53,510
Speaker 2: guy who did this genocide calling this random energy healer

1460
01:11:54,010 --> 01:11:57,469
Speaker 2: who looks kind of like the guy who did the genocide, right? Wow.

1461
01:11:57,490 --> 01:11:59,849
Speaker 2: That's sort of how it comes together. David? Yeah.

1462
01:12:00,850 --> 01:12:01,220
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1463
01:12:02,270 --> 01:12:04,550
Speaker 2: So as he attempted to flee, he was taken into

1464
01:12:04,590 --> 01:12:06,510
Speaker 2: custody and brought to the Hague. And I'm not going

1465
01:12:06,530 --> 01:12:08,650
Speaker 2: to cover the blow by blow of the trial, but

1466
01:12:08,670 --> 01:12:10,470
Speaker 2: it brought a ton of evidence to light that made

1467
01:12:10,530 --> 01:12:14,260
Speaker 2: Radovan's guilt even clearer. He and his top general, Ratko Mladic,

1468
01:12:14,500 --> 01:12:17,500
Speaker 2: were placed on trial for charges of genocide, crimes against humanity,

1469
01:12:17,580 --> 01:12:20,820
Speaker 2: and war crimes. And the resultant trial took years. But

1470
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:23,740
Speaker 2: on March 24th, 2016, he was convicted of all of

1471
01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:26,390
Speaker 2: these things and sentenced to 40 years in prison. He

1472
01:12:26,439 --> 01:12:29,350
Speaker 2: is incarcerated today at a UK prison in the Isle

1473
01:12:29,370 --> 01:12:33,810
Speaker 2: of Wight. And that's the Radovan Karadzic story. It's finally over.

1474
01:12:34,330 --> 01:12:35,870
Speaker 1: My goodness.

1475
01:12:36,850 --> 01:12:40,120
Speaker 2: An amazing amount of ground, though. What a life.

1476
01:12:43,229 --> 01:12:49,880
Speaker 1: The denouement of that story was so... It's insane. I

1477
01:12:49,960 --> 01:12:53,580
Speaker 1: was not expecting... You had no right.

1478
01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:56,200
Speaker 4: The penises of it all. Yeah.

1479
01:12:56,260 --> 01:12:59,979
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, I did not expect 2,000 middle-aged Serb penises

1480
01:13:00,020 --> 01:13:03,120
Speaker 2: to take a role in part two of this episode.

1481
01:13:03,400 --> 01:13:06,320
Speaker 1: That does sound like one of those Reddit, what would

1482
01:13:06,360 --> 01:13:07,269
Speaker 1: you do prompts.

1483
01:13:07,430 --> 01:13:11,210
Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know, folks. If you have 2,000 pictures

1484
01:13:11,229 --> 01:13:15,429
Speaker 2: of middle-aged Serbian men's penises, send them to our email,

1485
01:13:15,570 --> 01:13:16,929
Speaker 2: you know? I'll take a look.

1486
01:13:16,990 --> 01:13:21,229
Speaker 1: Yeah, not all men who have an album of 2,000

1487
01:13:21,229 --> 01:13:22,330
Speaker 1: pictures of Serbian penises.

1488
01:13:22,350 --> 01:13:24,790
Speaker 4: Please don't do that to Jamie. Please don't do that

1489
01:13:24,810 --> 01:13:25,430
Speaker 4: to me.

1490
01:13:25,850 --> 01:13:28,790
Speaker 2: That's the sequel to a Serbian film, 2,000 pictures of

1491
01:13:28,850 --> 01:13:29,910
Speaker 2: Serbian penises.

1492
01:13:30,729 --> 01:13:34,810
Speaker 4: Please, please, no dick pics. We've suffered enough.

1493
01:13:34,990 --> 01:13:35,769
Speaker 3: Oh, man.

1494
01:13:36,150 --> 01:13:37,730
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially that Times reporter, my God.

1495
01:13:37,750 --> 01:13:40,130
Speaker 1: Keep it to your local energy. Yeah, keep it to

1496
01:13:40,170 --> 01:13:44,260
Speaker 1: your local energy, Elaine. I still have questions about Jessica. Like,

1497
01:13:44,760 --> 01:13:45,560
Speaker 1: this is just all.

1498
01:13:45,700 --> 01:13:45,890
Speaker 3: Me too.

1499
01:13:45,970 --> 01:13:50,570
Speaker 1: I mean, I am thrilled. I am thrilled. I do

1500
01:13:50,630 --> 01:13:57,600
Speaker 1: remember him, his sentencing. Yeah. But I really feel like

1501
01:13:57,640 --> 01:14:01,630
Speaker 1: we kind of... Yeah. Culturally skipped over the, not just

1502
01:14:01,689 --> 01:14:06,230
Speaker 1: the genocide, but the MLM and the 2000 Serbian penises.

1503
01:14:06,630 --> 01:14:09,690
Speaker 2: No, it's not in, no one who is involved in

1504
01:14:09,720 --> 01:14:11,920
Speaker 2: the US defense and intelligence wants to admit that the

1505
01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:18,320
Speaker 2: Navy SEALs, Delta Force, the CIA, MI6, fucking every agency

1506
01:14:18,360 --> 01:14:21,580
Speaker 2: that existed in the West got outsmarted by a guy

1507
01:14:21,660 --> 01:14:24,740
Speaker 2: who's like primary pivot after getting done with a genocide

1508
01:14:24,780 --> 01:14:27,580
Speaker 2: was cupping old men's balls to make their sperm livelier.

1509
01:14:28,270 --> 01:14:29,160
Speaker 4: Incredible.

1510
01:14:30,979 --> 01:14:32,220
Speaker 2: It's pretty embarrassing.

1511
01:14:32,400 --> 01:14:37,000
Speaker 1: It's literally like a Count Olaf gray disguise. Yeah. It's

1512
01:14:37,220 --> 01:14:43,809
Speaker 1: pretty ridiculous. Yeah. And that however many like millions, maybe

1513
01:14:43,890 --> 01:14:46,229
Speaker 1: billions of dollars that went into that search, the best

1514
01:14:46,250 --> 01:14:50,630
Speaker 1: they could come up with was like a 2001 guerrilla suit.

1515
01:14:50,650 --> 01:14:54,250
Speaker 2: How could we have known he left the country? How

1516
01:14:54,270 --> 01:14:56,190
Speaker 2: could we have known the Serb went to Serbia?

1517
01:14:56,220 --> 01:14:56,340
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1518
01:14:57,680 --> 01:14:58,620
Speaker 1: Who could have guessed?

1519
01:14:58,640 --> 01:15:00,540
Speaker 2: Great work, Petraeus.

1520
01:15:00,580 --> 01:15:00,740
Speaker 3: Good.

1521
01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:05,299
Speaker 1: Best of luck in the future, you fucking dipshit. God.

1522
01:15:05,420 --> 01:15:05,740
Speaker 3: Well.

1523
01:15:06,040 --> 01:15:06,759
Speaker 2: Funny stuff.

1524
01:15:07,380 --> 01:15:11,559
Speaker 1: Good to see you. Glad he's rotting. Hope you, you know, and. Yeah.

1525
01:15:11,700 --> 01:15:13,420
Speaker 1: But Jesus Christ.

1526
01:15:13,650 --> 01:15:14,350
Speaker 2: My goodness.

1527
01:15:14,479 --> 01:15:15,019
Speaker 4: My goodness.

1528
01:15:15,360 --> 01:15:18,150
Speaker 3: Jamie, tell the audience here.

1529
01:15:17,790 --> 01:15:21,910
Speaker 1: About your new upcoming novel, The Tower. It's so hard

1530
01:15:21,930 --> 01:15:24,110
Speaker 1: to plug at the end of this fucking show. That's

1531
01:15:24,130 --> 01:15:27,919
Speaker 1: why I had you plug it up top, baby. It's true.

1532
01:15:27,960 --> 01:15:32,719
Speaker 1: You know, and listeners, keep in mind, he did get sentenced.

1533
01:15:32,140 --> 01:15:36,370
Speaker 3: In The Hague. Truman in the background was like, Auntie Jamie,

1534
01:15:36,410 --> 01:15:38,510
Speaker 3: talking about book, must listen. I know.

1535
01:15:39,550 --> 01:15:43,050
Speaker 1: I mean, she's a great reader, our sweet Truman. You

1536
01:15:43,090 --> 01:15:46,990
Speaker 1: can pre-order my first novel, The Tower. It comes out

1537
01:15:47,050 --> 01:15:49,650
Speaker 1: in June, but I'm going to beg you to pre-order

1538
01:15:49,689 --> 01:15:54,599
Speaker 1: it anyways. And it is about an architect who falls

1539
01:15:54,640 --> 01:15:58,400
Speaker 1: in love with her own blueprint and tries for years to,

1540
01:15:58,500 --> 01:16:01,500
Speaker 1: I guess I'll reveal an additional detail I didn't in

1541
01:16:01,520 --> 01:16:05,660
Speaker 1: the previous episode. She spends, she's trying to get financing

1542
01:16:05,740 --> 01:16:12,170
Speaker 1: from this very wealthy New England family to have the

1543
01:16:12,210 --> 01:16:15,510
Speaker 1: building built. And the family's name is the Van Sullivans,

1544
01:16:15,689 --> 01:16:17,400
Speaker 1: which I think is very funny.

1545
01:16:17,570 --> 01:16:17,809
Speaker 3: It is.

1546
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:21,420
Speaker 1: So you can pre-order it now and come see the

1547
01:16:21,460 --> 01:16:23,880
Speaker 1: Bechdelcast on tour in October.

1548
01:16:24,340 --> 01:16:24,840
Speaker 3: Woo!

1549
01:16:24,860 --> 01:16:29,080
Speaker 2: Buy it twice, you know? And also, listeners, before we go,

1550
01:16:29,100 --> 01:16:31,060
Speaker 2: I just want you to spend a little bit of

1551
01:16:31,110 --> 01:16:34,309
Speaker 2: time each day directing some mental energy to the hope that...

1552
01:16:34,670 --> 01:16:37,370
Speaker 2: that when Andrew Tate and his brother go to prison

1553
01:16:37,390 --> 01:16:39,650
Speaker 2: in the UK, they're sent to the Isle of Wight

1554
01:16:39,750 --> 01:16:42,290
Speaker 2: and wind up getting their balls cupped by Radovan Karadzic.

1555
01:16:42,330 --> 01:16:45,450
Speaker 2: That's my dream for the Tates. Is that he manages

1556
01:16:45,510 --> 01:16:47,210
Speaker 2: to convince them he can hear their sperm?

1557
01:16:47,270 --> 01:16:48,799
Speaker 1: That is manifestation for evil.

1558
01:16:49,410 --> 01:16:51,240
Speaker 2: I'm working on it, baby. I want it to happen.

1559
01:16:51,260 --> 01:16:52,660
Speaker 2: Who told Robert about this secret?

1560
01:16:52,700 --> 01:16:53,240
Speaker 1: This sucks.

1561
01:16:53,320 --> 01:16:56,559
Speaker 2: Manifest, baby. We can make this happen. This is doable.

1562
01:16:56,720 --> 01:16:57,380
Speaker 2: This is doable.

1563
01:16:58,700 --> 01:16:59,700
Speaker 1: All right.

1564
01:17:00,100 --> 01:17:00,680
Speaker 4: All right.

1565
01:17:00,800 --> 01:17:02,200
Speaker 1: Let's wrap it up.

1566
01:17:02,240 --> 01:17:02,919
Speaker 4: We're done.

1567
01:17:03,000 --> 01:17:03,860
Speaker 1: Bye.

1568
01:17:07,240 --> 01:17:09,759
Speaker 4: Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media.

1569
01:17:09,960 --> 01:17:13,660
Speaker 4: For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com.

1570
01:17:14,060 --> 01:17:16,710
Speaker 4: Or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1571
01:17:16,890 --> 01:17:20,390
Speaker 4: or wherever you get your podcasts. Full video episodes of

1572
01:17:20,410 --> 01:17:23,170
Speaker 4: Behind the Bastards are now streaming on Netflix, dropping every

1573
01:17:23,229 --> 01:17:25,870
Speaker 4: Tuesday and Thursday. Hit Remind Me on Netflix so you

1574
01:17:25,890 --> 01:17:29,360
Speaker 4: don't miss an episode. For clips and our older episode catalog,

1575
01:17:29,439 --> 01:17:32,440
Speaker 4: continue to subscribe to our YouTube channel, youtube.com slash at

1576
01:17:32,460 --> 01:17:36,920
Speaker 4: Behind the Bastards. We love behindthebastards. About 40% of you,

1577
01:17:37,200 --> 01:17:38,070
Speaker 4: statistically speaking.