1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:09,039 Speaker 1: This is Snaffo, a show about history's greatest screw ups. 2 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: I'm at Helms. This past season we covered the daring 3 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 1: heist that uncovered a colossal FBI snaffo. Today we're back 4 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: with our final bonus episode of the season. But before 5 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,280 Speaker 1: we dive in, I just want to add, even though 6 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: it's our final bonus episode, do not fret because there's 7 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: a new season coming very soon, plus a whole lot 8 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: of other cool stuff. So stay tuned. Okay, Now back 9 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: to it. As listeners will probably recall, co Intelpro was 10 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: officially shut down after being exposed in nineteen seventy one, 11 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 1: and j Edgar Hoover actually died in nineteen seventy two, 12 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: but sadly it would take a little longer for actual 13 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: reform to kick in. For a number of years, the 14 00:00:55,280 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: agency was still upholding many of Hoover's dirty tricks. Nowhere 15 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: was this more evident than in their interactions with the 16 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: American Indian Movement or AIM, as well as the greater 17 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: Native American community. To help us understand how co intel 18 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: pros legacy unfortunately endured in this way, we're honored to 19 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: be speaking to Nick Estes. Nick is an assistant professor 20 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: of American Indian Studies at the University of Minnesota and 21 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: hosts the Red Nation podcast. To start out, I would 22 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: love for you to introduce yourself, tell us a little 23 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 1: bit about your background and what it is you do. 24 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 2: My name's Nick Gustus. I am a member of the 25 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 2: Lawbrual Sioux tribe. I was born and raised in South Dakota. 26 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 2: I'm currently an American Indian Studies professor assistant professor at 27 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 2: the University of Minnesota, and I'm currently working on a 28 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 2: book about the history of the American Indian Movement. 29 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: What led you down this path? 30 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 2: Well, two of my grandfathers were writers. One published the 31 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 2: first history of the Lorberal subtribe in nineteen sixty three 32 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 2: and the other published another history in nineteen seventy two. 33 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 2: So in some ways, you know, it's kind of a 34 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:17,399 Speaker 2: family tradition. But also I was an anti war protester 35 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,799 Speaker 2: back when the United States invaded Rock for the second time, 36 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 2: and I kind of just stayed in school after that. 37 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 3: Went on to get a PhD. Right on. 38 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,959 Speaker 1: Well, as you know, this season of SNAFU goes into 39 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: considerable depth about the status of j Edgar Hoover's FBI 40 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies and many of the ways that 41 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: it was overtly nefarious, oftentimes operating fully outside of the law. 42 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: This of course exemplified by co Intel pro or the 43 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: counterintelligence program, the FBI surveillance program in the sixties and 44 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: seventies that targeted various political groups such as the Black Panthers, 45 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: anti Vietnam protesters, civil rights demonstrators. But I'm really excited 46 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: to talk with you today about how the Native American 47 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: community experienced the FBI at that time and really throughout 48 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: the twentieth century, which is quite fascinating and complex. Let's 49 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: start at the beginning. The FBI's origin story actually dovetails 50 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: with a major incident in twentieth century Native American history, 51 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 1: the Osage murders throughout the nineteen tens, twenties, and thirties. Now, 52 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: a lot of people will be familiar with this story 53 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: from the recent Martin Scorsese movie Killers of the Flower Moon. 54 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: So tell us a little bit about the early interactions 55 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: between the Bureau and Native Americans and also what did 56 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: the film get right and or wrong. 57 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 2: Many people have probably seen this film. I started watching it, 58 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 2: but I couldn't watch it I couldn't. It's hard for 59 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 2: me to watch the killing, rape and torture of Native 60 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,040 Speaker 2: women over and over again on screen. It's not some 61 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 2: thing I find very entertaining. But I do think that 62 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 2: the movie itself kind of gets to this, or at 63 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 2: least is trying to get to this history of murder, 64 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 2: missing Indigenous women. I think what's missing in that film, 65 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 2: at least from my perspective, is the advocacy of people 66 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 2: like Zincali Shaw, who was born as Gertrude Bonnan. She 67 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 2: was from the Yankton Sioux Reservation. She was an advocate, 68 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 2: a Native woman who worked in Congress, who was a lobbyist, 69 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 2: who is an activist, who actually interviewed some of the 70 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 2: osage women who had been targeted by these men and 71 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 2: really brought attention to this issue, and that's not in 72 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:45,239 Speaker 2: the film. It's also kind of propaganda for the FBI, 73 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 2: because the FBI sees itself as sort of this crime 74 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 2: fighting unit has a particular history with indigenous activists. But 75 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 2: also the FBI, you know, according to its own people, 76 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 2: was a political police force. It was about surveiling primarily 77 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 2: Eastern European immigrants who were forming left progressive trade unions 78 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 2: and parties, the communist parties, socialist anarchists, etc. And it 79 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 2: was really about surveilling them and policing them as an 80 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 2: internal threat. And in fact, the precursor to the FBI, 81 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 2: I think it was called a Bureau of Investigations surveiled 82 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 2: people like Zinc Coalishaw and people who were indigenous leaders 83 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 2: and advocates in an organization called the Society of American 84 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 2: Indians because at that time American Indians were not citizens 85 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:43,239 Speaker 2: of the United States, but we're advocating for rights within 86 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 2: a constitutional framework. Some of them were pushing for citizenship, 87 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 2: but they were very outspoken against the participation of American 88 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 2: Indians in World War One. They said, why is it 89 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 2: that we should volunteer and fight for this country when 90 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,359 Speaker 2: we're not even citizens. We don't even have Fifth Amendment rights. 91 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 2: We can't even stand trial and bring treaty rights. So 92 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 2: they were very critical and they wrote, you know, these newsletters, 93 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 2: and it got to Jaeger Hoover's desks, and he sent 94 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 2: people out to investigate these people under you know, crimes 95 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 2: of sedition, you know, things like that. 96 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: So and this was in when is this exactly? This 97 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: is in the ten tens or one of the. 98 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 2: Late nineteen tens, early nineteen twenties, because and. 99 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: This was all contemporaneous with the Osage murders. 100 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, And I think you know, Zinklishaw is somebody 101 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 2: who kind of gets written out of this history because 102 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,919 Speaker 2: she was a Native woman, She was an advocate, she 103 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 2: was interviewing these. 104 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 3: People, she wrote a report to Congress. 105 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 2: She was threatened by the similar violence that was being 106 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 2: enacted on O Sage people. And I think that's a 107 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 2: much more compelling story because it shows that on the 108 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 2: one hand, Native people weren't just sort of apless victims 109 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 2: of violence, that they were trying to navigate the channels 110 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 2: of power that existed. 111 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: Why is a story like that less visible in the 112 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: historical narrative than a big story like the Osage murders. 113 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 2: Well, I would hope that someday they would make a 114 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 2: movie about Zinkali Shah and the fact that a lot 115 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 2: of people in this country don't even know who she is. 116 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 2: If people know natives from that time period, they probably 117 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 2: know somebody like Jim Thorpe, who was an Olympian, you know, 118 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 2: a multi gold medal winner, And so I think it's 119 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 2: important to know this particular history because on one hand, 120 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 2: it also shows these other precursors to something like red power. 121 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 2: That Red power didn't just emerge from the mists of history, 122 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 2: but it was drawing from this long tradition of activism 123 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 2: at the grassroots level and thinking about things like treaties, 124 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 2: but also. 125 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 3: Drawing the attention in the ire of the FBI. 126 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: All right, let's jump to the middle of the twentieth century. 127 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: That's when we see the emergence of the American Indian 128 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 1: Movement or AIM, which ultimately would become a point of 129 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: considerable friction with the FBI. Tell us what the American 130 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: Indian Movement is and why it formed. 131 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 2: So the American Indian Movement formed officially in nineteen sixty 132 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 2: eight in northern Minneapolis, originally called it self Concerned Indian Americans, 133 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 2: but the acronym was CIA, so they changed it to 134 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 2: the American Indian Movement. But the co founders of people 135 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:41,439 Speaker 2: like Eddie Benton, Benet Clyde Belcourt, Dennis Banks were all 136 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 2: incarcerated at one point in time together It's Stillwater prison. 137 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 2: So they would argue that the American Indian Movement, the 138 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 2: idea came out of the prison movement, and they created 139 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 2: this group called the Culture Group, and they sort of 140 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 2: made commitments that once they left prison, they were going 141 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 2: to change their lives, and so they went into Minneapolis. 142 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 2: At that time, there was a lot of Native people 143 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 2: who were part of the union movement, like the Teamsters. 144 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 2: There was the Teamsters rebellion in Minneapolis and the nineteen thirties. 145 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 3: Native people were part of that. 146 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 2: Native people are part of unions, they're part of working 147 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 2: class history, and so there was also a lot of 148 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 2: community organizations that were centered around the family. And so 149 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 2: when these men arrived on the scene, there already sort 150 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 2: of existed in infrastructure and a complaint, so to speak, 151 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 2: or an injury that Native people felt in Minneapolis. Because 152 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 2: Minneapolis turned what is known as the East Phillips neighborhood 153 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 2: into a sort of slum, things are being shifted around. 154 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 2: Termination is happening at the same time where the federal 155 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 2: government is trying to end its federal responsibilities with Native people. 156 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 2: They're enticing Native people to leave their reservations on a 157 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 2: relocation program. They found themselves in low income slum housing. 158 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 2: They found themselves being targeted by these police raids that 159 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 2: were happening on the weekends where a paddy wagon would 160 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 2: literally just pull up to an Indian bar on Franklin 161 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 2: Avenue and just start loading people in. Once the bar closed, 162 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:16,319 Speaker 2: people were getting beat people were getting discriminated against. Native 163 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 2: children were being taken from their families and put into 164 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:24,319 Speaker 2: white foster care systems or into white homes. One study 165 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 2: that came out in like the nineteen seventies found that 166 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 2: between twenty five to thirty five percent of Native children 167 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 2: had been taken from or removed from their families and 168 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 2: placed into non Native homes. That's quite a bit. So 169 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 2: it was three things. It was child removal, police violence, 170 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 2: and urban poverty that led to the foundations of the 171 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 2: American Indian Movement. And it wasn't just about a confrontation politics, 172 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 2: even though that's kind of what one aim the headlines 173 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 2: at the time when they began to confront police and 174 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 2: began filming them and following them around as they portray 175 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 2: rolled the Indian bars on the weekends. But they also 176 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 2: began to form what were called survival schools, which was 177 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:11,559 Speaker 2: literally just Native families pooling together what small resources they 178 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 2: had and setting up a formal school system. Because it 179 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 2: was at public schools that Native children came under the 180 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 2: surveillance of state officials, whether it was through the Department 181 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 2: of Social Services, and that was the place where they 182 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 2: begin these child removal processes. So it is known through 183 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 2: the media and its representation by the FBI as a confrontational, 184 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 2: sort of militant social movement, but that sort of overshadows 185 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 2: the community work that it was doing on the ground 186 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 2: and what won a lot of respect by community members themselves. 187 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: I mean, you spoke in some depth about some of 188 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: their initiatives. Is there an overarching sort of mission of 189 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: the American Indian Movement and does that also have some 190 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: misconceptions in the public discourse. 191 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 2: So in nineteen seventy two, the American Indian Movement, as 192 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 2: well as a coalition of various grassroots Native organizations, some 193 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 2: of them even from Canada, like the Canadian Indian Brotherhood, 194 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 2: participated in it. They drafted a twenty point policy framework 195 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 2: called the Trail of Broken Treaties, and in it it 196 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 2: sort of lays out point by point what was being 197 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 2: advocated for. Number one priority was abolishing the Bureau of 198 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 2: Indian Affairs. At that time period, the Bureau of Indian 199 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:38,439 Speaker 2: Affairs was largely responsible for plundering Native lands and implementing 200 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 2: this termination system, assimilation, et cetera. We saw the outcome 201 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:45,679 Speaker 2: of like the twenty eleven you know, Cole Bell lawsuit 202 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 2: that showed that the Bureau of Indian Affairs had been mismanaging. 203 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 2: I think it was like over one hundred and seventy 204 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 2: five billion dollars of what they could count on paper 205 00:12:54,720 --> 00:13:00,719 Speaker 2: of Native assets. There was also the program of establishing 206 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 2: a treaty relationship with the United States government, sort of 207 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 2: ending every act or going back to eighteen seventy one 208 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 2: when treaty making was formally abolished with Native nations. That 209 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 2: sort of treaty commission, so to speak, would replace the 210 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 2: Bureau of Indian Affairs. Native people would elect their own leaders. 211 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 2: You know, today we have the Secretary of Interior who 212 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 2: happens to be Native herself, Deb Holland. 213 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 3: But that's not somebody we elect, but nonetheless. 214 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 2: Has still to this day, has arbitrary authority over the 215 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 2: livelihoods and resources of Native people. We're in the same 216 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 2: department as wildlife right still to this day, and those 217 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 2: are sort of the broader sort of policy frameworks that 218 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 2: they were pushing. But also at a grassroots level, they 219 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 2: really wanted self determination and community control. So those are 220 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 2: sort of like the broad brushstrokes of what they were 221 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 2: trying to accomplish. 222 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: So the American Indian Movement isn't actually mentioned by name 223 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: in the co Intel profiles, But that's a little misleading 224 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 1: because in reality, there was no shortage of interaction between 225 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 1: the FBI and the American Indian Movement that reflected the 226 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: tactics and ethos of co Intel Pro, especially right after 227 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: Hoover's death. So tell us what was happening in the 228 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: early nineteen seventies between the FBI and AIM. 229 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 2: You know, the break in at the FBI Field office 230 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 2: and the revealing of these Cointel pro papers. It was 231 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 2: a huge embarrassment to the FBI. They were exposed. Jadgar 232 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 2: Hoover like dies shortly after these revelations come out, and 233 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 2: the FBI says that it's formerly ending counterintelligence programs, and 234 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 2: so they were under a lot of scrutiny by the time, 235 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 2: the American Indian Movement began drawing a lot of public attention, 236 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 2: negative attention from law enforcement but also lawmakers themselves, the 237 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 2: Attorney Gerald Nixon's administration. So by nineteen seventy two, when 238 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 2: the trailer Broken Treaties happens in late nineteen seventy two 239 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 2: around the presidential elections, the co intel pro program had like, 240 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 2: quote unquote formally ended, right, And so when you look 241 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 2: at the FBI documents of surveillance of the American Indian Movement, 242 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 2: they're even cautious. There's at one point there's the LA 243 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 2: Field Office is like, hey, we can run the counterintelligence program. 244 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 2: And I don't remember who was the Field director at 245 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 2: the time, but writes back and says, hey, we don't 246 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 2: do that anymore. But the tactics, you know, just because 247 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 2: that program ended, maybe in the paper trail you couldn't 248 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 2: say co Intel Pro anymore, it doesn't mean that the 249 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 2: tactics or the actions formally ended. And so I think 250 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 2: that's the bigger point here. It's like it just moved 251 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 2: to a different category. So instead of being counterintelligence program 252 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 2: to disrupt and to fame the American Indian Movement, the 253 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 2: American Indian Movement became categorized within what is called em AIM, 254 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 2: which is extremes some matters. It actually the nature of 255 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 2: the FBI sort of changes culture. 256 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's changed, Yeah, exactly, I. 257 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: Would love to dig into that more. In particular, it's 258 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: very important to point out the FBI was the FBI, 259 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: and there was still a sort of legacy of Jaegar 260 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: Hoover's the culture that he had set up, and the 261 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: church hearings wouldn't happen for another few years. Those hearings 262 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: would significantly improve government oversight of agencies like the FBI, 263 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: at least in that moment, but leading up to that, 264 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: there was still a huge amount of friction between the 265 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: Native American community and the FBI. Let's jump into the 266 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: Wounded Knee occupation of nineteen seventy three. Can you walk 267 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: us through that event? 268 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 3: Sure? 269 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 2: So, after the trail of broken treaties, this really put 270 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 2: the Americanadian movement on the map, so to speak, and 271 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 2: got a lot of attention, both positive and negative. And 272 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 2: the negative side, tribal leaders in places like Pine Ridge 273 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 2: saw the American Indian Movement as a not only a threat, 274 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 2: but outside sort of agitators that could come to the 275 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 2: reservation and potentially overthrow the tribal government. The FBI had 276 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 2: to function as a federal police force because reservations, specifically 277 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 2: in South Dakota, fall under federal jurisdiction, So it's the 278 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 2: jurisdiction of federal police like the FBI or the Bureau 279 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 2: of Indian Affairs Police Agency or the US Marshall Service. 280 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 2: And so by nineteen seventy two, the Tribal Council president 281 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 2: of Pine Ridge, Dick Wilson, begins to sort of bad 282 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 2: mouth aim and says you're banned from the reservation. There's 283 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 2: already a chapter in pine Ridge at this time. So 284 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 2: in February, things sort of escalate and there's the Customer 285 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 2: Courthouse riot where the American Indian Movement leads a really 286 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 2: racous sort of riot against this man, this white guy 287 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 2: who stabbed Wesley bad Heart bull and barroom fight and 288 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 2: he ended up dying, and they ended up burning down 289 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 2: the Chamber of Commerce and having open fistfights, and you know, 290 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 2: with billy clubs, et cetera, with the South Dakota State 291 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 2: Patrol as well as other local law enforcement agencies. So 292 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 2: there's this kind of brewing tension that's happening at that time. 293 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 2: Also locally in Pine Ridge, people who were discontent with 294 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 2: Dick Wilson, who was seen as sort of an authoritarian 295 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 2: kind of like leader, begin to organize things called like 296 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:32,479 Speaker 2: the interdistrict councils. They have opposition through the tribal council. 297 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 2: They have several elected leaders, but then a lot of grassroots. 298 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 3: People, mainly middle aged women like Ellen. 299 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 2: Moves Camp, Gladys Bissonette and others, begin to form these 300 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 2: public hearings where people come forward and issue grievances against 301 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 2: the tribal council. In response to tribal council creates what 302 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 2: the locals called a goon squad. That was initially an 303 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 2: accusation and derogatory term, which the goon Squad later turned 304 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 2: towards the Guardian said, oh, it's an acronym for guardians 305 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 2: of the Oglala nation. But essentially they were like deputized 306 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 2: so Orwellian. So they were like deputized vigilantes who would 307 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 2: go around and. 308 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 3: Terrorize Dick Dick Wilson exactly. 309 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 2: And the FBI, you know, sensing this kind of brewing tension. 310 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:26,120 Speaker 2: There was a failed impeachment attempt of Dick Wilson in February, 311 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 2: and they created the Oglalla Sioux Civil Rights Organization as 312 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 2: a sort of opposition, which invited the American Indian Movement 313 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 2: to Pine Ridge in late February of nineteen seventy three, 314 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 2: and on February twenty seventh, they led the occupation of 315 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 2: wound Nie. At that time, the FBI had already been 316 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:45,160 Speaker 2: on Pine Ridge. 317 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 3: They had been. 318 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 2: Specifically tasked with jotting down the license plate numbers of 319 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 2: off reservation supporters of the Oglalla Sioux Civil Rights Organization, 320 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 2: anyone who's coming and going from out of state, et cetera. 321 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 2: So Dick wilson title was what exactly the president of 322 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 2: the tribe here was elected president. 323 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: Of the tribe. Okay, So there's a lot of discontent 324 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: with Dick Wilson's leadership of the tribe. Aim is brought 325 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,400 Speaker 1: in to sort of assist in the resistance to Dick 326 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: Wilson and how he's running the tribe. Is it fair 327 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 1: to say that there was a sense that Dick Wilson 328 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: was kind of in the incahoots with the federal government 329 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: in ways that were undermining the Native American community there well. 330 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 2: On many reservations, the main employer tended to be the 331 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 2: federal government, whether it was through federal grants, you worked 332 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 2: for the tribe, you worked for the Bureau of Indian Affairs. 333 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 2: And so if you're the president or you're on council 334 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,199 Speaker 2: on Typically that leads to sort of nepotism, right, so 335 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:49,400 Speaker 2: there's a cornering of resources, right, housing, things like that, 336 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 2: access to employment that he was seen as sort of 337 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 2: gifting out. He has been accused and found plausible that 338 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 2: he stole a lot of money from the tribe, but 339 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 2: also was making deals to sell off parts of tribal 340 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 2: land for exploratory uranium mining that was happening in the 341 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 2: northern part of the reservation. You have to remember that 342 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 2: part of the reservation was actually confiscated by the federal 343 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,479 Speaker 2: government during World War Two to use as a bombing range. 344 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 2: As the northern part of the reservation actually there were 345 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,640 Speaker 2: I think it was like around fifty or so families 346 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 2: were forcefully relocated from that area, and the tribe was 347 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 2: trying to get it back, and it was happening through 348 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,360 Speaker 2: grassroots sort of protests that people were trying to get 349 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 2: this back, and there was allegations that Dick Wilson was 350 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 2: making sweetheart deals with outside contractors, outside industry to sort 351 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 2: of open that up for exploratory uranium mining. 352 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: Wow, we're just going to take this land just for 353 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: bomb practice. 354 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 3: That's yeah. 355 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, So sometimes it's like we have and that they 356 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:02,360 Speaker 2: see as resource rich. 357 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:06,680 Speaker 1: Yeah right, there's other time let's get the oil exactly. 358 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,479 Speaker 2: Sometimes it's like it's it's valuable because it's wasteable, you know. 359 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:15,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go. Okay. So there's an emerging tension 360 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: among members of the tribe against Dick Wilson, the tribal leadership, 361 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 1: who is seen as being in cahoots with federal government 362 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: in some not good ways. What do they do? 363 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,639 Speaker 3: So they take over. 364 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 2: The Woundannee massacre site, which listeners may have heard that name. 365 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 2: But in eighteen ninety, just several days after Christmas, the 366 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 2: Seventh Cavalry, just George Armstrong Custer's former regiment essentially massacred 367 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,640 Speaker 2: around three hundred Lakota people who were surrendering at this 368 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 2: particular time under the leadership of Opunkleshka, or more commonly 369 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 2: known as a Chief Bigfoot. From what I can tell 370 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,360 Speaker 2: from interviews I've conducted, I don't think they actually plan 371 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,239 Speaker 2: on staying there for very long, but it ended up 372 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 2: turning into a seventy one day occupation. It's fascinating for 373 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 2: a lot of reasons. One is that the. 374 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 3: Day that the occupation happened, a. 375 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 2: General named Volney Warner, who's actually South Dakota native, gets 376 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,360 Speaker 2: a call from Nixon's administration. He said, there's a twentieth 377 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 2: century Indian uprising. We need to deploy somebody from the 378 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 2: Department of Defense. So he flies to Ellsworth Air Force Base, 379 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 2: the base that was used to bomb just decades before 380 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 2: bomb the reservation. Flies to Ellsworth Air Force Base and 381 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:39,919 Speaker 2: there he meets Joseph Trimbach, who is the Special Agent 382 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 2: in charge of the FBI, and then he also meets 383 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 2: top us Marshal Wayne Colburn. And in this initial meeting 384 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 2: it was like three o'clock in the morning. On the 385 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 2: next day, Joe Trimbach and the Special Agent in charge 386 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 2: basically asks the colonel. He was a colonel later became 387 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 2: promoted to a general, but he was a colonel at 388 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:02,679 Speaker 2: the time. He asked Colonel Warner, he said, can you 389 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 2: send in the eighty second Airborne and just end the 390 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 2: siege right now? 391 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,719 Speaker 1: How far into this to this occupation are we at 392 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: this point? 393 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 3: Hours? Hours, like mere hours. 394 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 2: This is like three point thirty in the morning the 395 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 2: next day, so they occupied. They began the occupation at nighttime. 396 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 2: So the FBI was put into this position and you 397 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,159 Speaker 2: can read this through Joe Trimbak's own words, in his 398 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 2: own perspective, he was put into this position of turning 399 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 2: the FBI into this kind of like paramilitary police force. 400 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 2: Because you have to remember, like Hoover's guys, like when 401 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,679 Speaker 2: Fred Hampton was assassinated, it wasn't at the hands of 402 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 2: FBI agents. The FBI didn't have shootouts with the Black Panthers. 403 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,919 Speaker 2: It was typically other law enforcement agencies that would have 404 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 2: shootouts with these organizations. They were kind of like the 405 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 2: behind the scenes guys who were always a step back. 406 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 2: And in fact that even interviewed a former FBI agent 407 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 2: named Colleen and I asked her straight up, I said, 408 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 2: why would any FBI agent want this job? And she says, 409 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,640 Speaker 2: because it's easy. Imagine you're going after hardened criminals who 410 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 2: are like, murder is their occupation, and then you get 411 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 2: a sign to go tail a political activist. There's not 412 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 2: much risk, you know, in doing that. At that time, 413 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 2: the image of the FBI is that they're these kind 414 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 2: of like suit and tie, kind of like slick, you know, investigators. 415 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,880 Speaker 2: They have these techniques, but they're investment. Yeah, they're investigative unit. 416 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 2: They're not really armed like that we see today, you know, 417 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 2: with the paramilitary sort of armed with assault rifles, you know, 418 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 2: doing all these tactics. And so to put it bluntly, 419 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 2: like Trimbak was pissed that he was putting his agents 420 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,399 Speaker 2: out on the line, and his agents were pissed. 421 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: So just to paint a visual picture here for our 422 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 1: mind's eye, sure, what was the town of Wounded Knee like? 423 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: Exactly what would it look like to drive by or 424 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 1: drive through? 425 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 2: Wounini at that time was a village and a trading post, 426 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 2: like literally less than a dozen houses in the town 427 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 2: of Wundani. There was a church, a very visible white 428 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 2: church at the top of the hill where the mass 429 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 2: grave where umpug Gleshka's people were buried and the massacred 430 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 2: ghost dancers. 431 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 1: I wonder if you could talk a little bit sort 432 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 1: of philosophically about the idea of occupying land as a 433 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 1: form of protest and or peaceful resistance. 434 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 2: So the FBI had this narrative that it was because 435 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 2: of outside agitators like the American Indian Movement that the 436 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,400 Speaker 2: arm takeover of Wundani happened. It was like their idea, 437 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 2: but as a lot of the locals said it would 438 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 2: say no, that was actually our idea. And in fact, 439 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 2: I told you about the bombing range initially back I 440 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 2: think it was nineteen seventy, locals occupied what was known 441 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 2: as Sheep Mountain, which is that bombing range. And later 442 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 2: on when they couldn't get an audience because it's on 443 00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 2: the reservation, you have a protest on the reservation, like 444 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:01,160 Speaker 2: who's going to show up in the middle of nowhere, 445 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 2: you know, So they decided and it was a group 446 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 2: of grandmothers, people like Murio Wakazoo and Lizzy Fastours who decide, hey, 447 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 2: like let's go to someplace more famous and like more iconics. 448 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 2: So they decided that they were going to occupy Mount 449 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 2: Rushmore in nineteen seventy to raise the issue of the 450 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,159 Speaker 2: taken you know, bombing range lands at Sheep Mountains. So 451 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,199 Speaker 2: they took over Mount Rushmore and it was you know, 452 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 2: several occupations and a multi yeared kind of process. But 453 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 2: this was also part and parcel to other federal property 454 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 2: takeovers like at Alcatraz Island in nineteen seventy or nineteen 455 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 2: sixty nine to nineteen seventy one. Alcatraz was a prison 456 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 2: island that was abandoned by the federal government. It was 457 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 2: also a place where, you know, hope people were sent 458 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 2: because they refused to send their children to boarding schools 459 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 2: in the late nineteenth century. So it kind of has 460 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 2: this notorious history. We see you know that movie that 461 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 2: Nicholas came movie The Rock or was it Nicholas Cage, Yeah, 462 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 2: and Sean Connery yeah, and Shuck Conry. 463 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. People might know it as like Rock the Rock. 464 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 2: Yes, Nicholas Cage is like, you think that guy's career 465 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 2: might be like on the tail end, but it keeps 466 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:16,880 Speaker 2: like he keeps coming out with bangers man. 467 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, No, he is crushing it and never stops crushing it. 468 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 1: So tell us what unfolded at the Wounded Knee occupation 469 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: and what role the FBI played. 470 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 2: And maybe instead of giving like a play by play, 471 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 2: because it's seventy one days and there's different ebbs and flows. 472 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:35,880 Speaker 2: But when we look at history, we tend to think 473 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 2: of things with oh, it led to this, and I 474 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 2: think a lot of people didn't know it was going 475 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 2: to lead to. 476 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 3: This, you know. 477 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 2: So over the course of seventy one days, the FBI 478 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 2: pumped in about half a million rounds into this tiny hamlet. 479 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 2: And it's point important to like remember that the people 480 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 2: on the inside, they were portrayed by the FBI as 481 00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 2: these armed militants, and many of them were like comp veterans. 482 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 2: I've interviewed several people who were Vietnam veterans, so they 483 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 2: did have like combat experience, but everyone said they didn't 484 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 2: have ammunition. They most of their rifles were rusted out 485 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 2: like twenty two's. They didn't have a machine gun. There 486 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 2: was an AK forty seven, but that was smuggled from 487 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 2: the jungles of Vietnam by somebody, but nobody had an 488 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 2: ammunition for it. But it made a good sort of 489 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 2: image for the FBI to say, hey, look this communists 490 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 2: inspired Chinese inspired like uprising. They have an AK forty seven, 491 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 2: which that became the symbol for armed revolutions throughout the 492 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 2: world at that particular time. But on the inside, Wundanie, 493 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 2: you know, they declared the independent Oglala nation. They made 494 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 2: people citizens of this new nation, even non native people. 495 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 2: They proposed a succession plan to what would happen once 496 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 2: the tribal government relinquished its power was formally abolished, that 497 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 2: they would return to the eighteen sixty eight Fort Laramie 498 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 2: Treaty and the sort of governing principles of like traditional 499 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 2: Lakota culture, and a lot of these AIM members had 500 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 2: never really encountered indigenous spiritual life, and so there's also 501 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 2: this kind of renewal that was happening on the inside. 502 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 2: And wow, So it was a really you know, you 503 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 2: ask people, it's like, yeah, there was this immense danger. 504 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 3: You know. 505 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 2: I interviewed a Madonna Thunderhowk and she said, yeah, it 506 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 2: was the freest time of my life, even though we're 507 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 2: completely surrounded. There wasn't a lot of food, it was cold, 508 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 2: we didn't have electricity, all of those things. And she 509 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 2: brought in her ten year old son with her. So 510 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 2: she has said this to me on multiple occasions that 511 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 2: the American Indian Movement, if anything, was a movement of families. 512 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 2: It wasn't this militant, like violence prone organization led by men, right, 513 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 2: It was actually families were the heartbeat of the movement itself. 514 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 2: And if you read the FBI files, if you read 515 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 2: the media reports, it gives us a complete different point 516 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 2: of view because they only saw men as the leaders. 517 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 2: On the federal police side, a Colonel Warner, he was 518 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 2: in charge of essentially bringing in military equipment to arm 519 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 2: the US Marshals, the Bureau of Indian Affairs, police officers, 520 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 2: the FBI, and later was revealed the Goon Squad themselves 521 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 2: were getting these military grade assault rifles. 522 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 3: Right. 523 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 1: Wow. 524 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 2: So the FBI was taking on, according to its own 525 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 2: words and report, a paramilitary function, something that it had 526 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 2: not done before in the field. It was teaching agents 527 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 2: to use shoulder mounted assault rifles, to use grenade launchers, 528 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 2: to launch tear gas canisters, to train in tactics. 529 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 3: Right. 530 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 2: So, the difference between the US Marshals and the FBI 531 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 2: at that time was the US Marshals tended to come from, 532 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 2: you know, non college educated, working class people, so they 533 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 2: had so many of their officers or marshals were Vietnam veterans, 534 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 2: so they had combat experience. They knew how to use 535 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 2: these weapons of war. Whereas the FBI they were like 536 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 2: highly educated urbanites who are not used to being in 537 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 2: the field in this way, and so it was for 538 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 2: them a lot of them was a traumatic experience. And 539 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 2: if you read some of the US Marshall reports, they're like, 540 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 2: we have to control these FBI guys. They keep freaking 541 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 2: out at the line, they're being overly hostile to the 542 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 2: Native families who's who live in this area, right, They're 543 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 2: they're being violent there. So it created this this kind 544 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 2: of cauldron of violence, so to speak, that was concentrated 545 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 2: in this area. One US Marshall was shot in paralyzed 546 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 2: from from the waist down, and two occupiers, a man 547 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 2: named Frank Clearwater who was not Native, was shot and 548 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 2: killed while he was sleeping in one of the bunker 549 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 2: or not in one of the bunkers in one of 550 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 2: the buildings. And then a Vietnam veteran and a local 551 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 2: from pine Rie named Buddy Lamont was shot in the 552 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 2: heart by a sniper's bullet after they had declared a ceasefire. 553 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 2: And this was towards the end. I think it was 554 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 2: in late April, towards the end of the occupation. And 555 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 2: it was Buddy Lamont's death that really ended it for 556 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 2: people on the inside because they were like, we don't 557 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 2: want any more people to die or to get hurt, right. 558 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry, But what was precipitating these outbursts, these firefights. 559 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: Were they just periodically shooting into wounded knee. I don't 560 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: remember how many rounds of ammunition, you said at first 561 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 1: half or something. Yeah, that's a lot of gunfire over 562 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 1: a long period of time. 563 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, And according to the documents, most of the firefights, 564 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 2: as they were called, happened at nighttime, and it could 565 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 2: be depending on which side you read or which stories 566 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 2: you read. You know, the FBI the US Marshals would 567 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 2: blame somebody for taking a potshot, and then it would 568 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 2: erupt into a firefight, and people would say, like the 569 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 2: night would literally be illuminated with flares to kind of 570 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 2: spot the occupiers on the inside. They were using tracer rounds, 571 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 2: and there were also the goons themselves put up their 572 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 2: own roadblock at the behest of Dick Wilson, and they 573 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 2: kind of instigated some firefights, almost getting into crossfire with 574 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 2: the FBI and the US Marshals who didn't like their 575 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 2: presence because they were very sort of aggressive. 576 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: Now, I want to shift gears into more recent events. 577 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,359 Speaker 1: Listeners will likely be somewhat familiar with Standing Rock and 578 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 1: the Dakota Access pipeline protests that went on in twenty 579 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 1: sixteen and twenty seventeen. It seems like that was a 580 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,760 Speaker 1: contemporary example of everything we've been talking about regarding FBI 581 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 1: surveillance and infiltration, and it represents some of the ways 582 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: that the Bureau has and has not evolved in its 583 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: interface with the Native American community. 584 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,320 Speaker 2: So twenty sixteen was a very similar year to twenty 585 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 2: twenty four. You know, as a presidential election, you have 586 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 2: an outgoing Democrat Trump A Trump is running Trump is 587 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 2: running again, and so you know twenty sixteen. What preceded 588 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,760 Speaker 2: that was the successful defeat of the Keiston Excel pipeline 589 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:28,280 Speaker 2: under the Obama administration. This happened through Indigenous led protests, 590 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:30,359 Speaker 2: so there was a lot of there was a high 591 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 2: point at that particular moment. Of course, Trump later reversed 592 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,800 Speaker 2: Obama's decision and you know, reinstated the Keystone Exel pipeline, 593 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 2: only to have it reversed again by the Biden administration. 594 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,359 Speaker 2: But it was there was a high point, and there 595 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,799 Speaker 2: was these there's organizing, There was grassroots organizing happening at 596 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 2: that time. And to be honest, the quota access pipeline 597 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:50,880 Speaker 2: wasn't really on the radar of a lot of people. 598 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 2: They had just defeated this major tarzans pipeline that would 599 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 2: be pumping tartans from Alberta Canada down to Oklahoma across 600 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,760 Speaker 2: our Tree territory in western South Dakota, so there wasn't 601 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 2: the kind of attention to the decod access pipeline. But nonetheless, 602 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 2: the Standing Tribe, not just grassroots organizers, but the tribe 603 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,320 Speaker 2: itself had been steadfastly opposed to it from the very beginning, 604 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,799 Speaker 2: especially when it was re routed from upriver from North 605 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,719 Speaker 2: Dakota to downriver to North Dakota so that it would 606 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,919 Speaker 2: impact the tribe more than it would impact the predominantly 607 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 2: white community that was north of it. This was a 608 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 2: decision made by the Army Corps of Engineers. So in 609 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 2: April of twenty sixteen, after a sort of contentious meeting 610 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 2: with the Army Corps of Engineers, a group of Standing 611 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 2: Rock activists got together and created the first camp that 612 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 2: later evolved into multiple camps, the Ochetti, Shakoi Camp, Sacred 613 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 2: Stone Camp, et cetera. 614 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:55,320 Speaker 1: To be clear that this pipeline presents a massive danger 615 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 1: to our water system in the event of it possibly 616 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:03,719 Speaker 1: failing or leaking, or any kind of natural disaster, which 617 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:10,360 Speaker 1: we've seen from the oil and gas industry rampantly throughout 618 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:15,240 Speaker 1: its existence. So any possible failure of this pipeline would 619 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:21,479 Speaker 1: have devastating consequences to the ecosystem there on tribal land. 620 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, Minnie Chouche, which is what we call the Missouri 621 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 2: River is the main drinking source for like millions of 622 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,799 Speaker 2: people in the watershed. Even downriver it flows into the Mississippi, 623 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 2: which goes into the Gulf of Mexico. So it wasn't 624 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 2: just a native issue. It was like everyone's issue. And 625 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:43,280 Speaker 2: even for Berthold Indian reservation, the Mandan, Hidatsa and Rikara tribes, 626 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 2: who has a very lucrative oil and gas industry whose 627 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,160 Speaker 2: oil would be going through that pipeline, said this is. 628 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:51,080 Speaker 3: A bad idea. 629 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,480 Speaker 2: Even the people were profiting from it, like, this is 630 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 2: a bad idea, we oppose this. The fundamental issue is 631 00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 2: tribal sovereignty right. 632 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 1: Right, And it's not just about hey, this pipeline would 633 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 1: be so annoying to have in our backyard. It's like, 634 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 1: oh no, this is an existential threat also. And then 635 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,880 Speaker 1: on top of it is the fundamental underlying issue that 636 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:13,880 Speaker 1: you just mentioned, tribal sovereignty. 637 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 2: It's like if France decided they're going to build a 638 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 2: pipeline in Germany, the Germans would probably be mad about that. 639 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 1: Okay, how many people are now protesting this construction. 640 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 2: I think that the height of the encampment itself or 641 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 2: the encampments is one of the top ten largest cities 642 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,320 Speaker 2: in North Dakota, if it could be counted as a city, 643 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,760 Speaker 2: So it's quite massive, you know. And yeah, the Aboma 644 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 2: administration didn't I wouldn't say like stopped it, but they 645 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:43,319 Speaker 2: definitely put up some obstacles in trying to revisit the 646 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 2: environmental impact review process through the Army Corps of Engineers. 647 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,359 Speaker 2: Of course, you know, Trump was just like, now we're 648 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 2: going to take any sort of protections off this and 649 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 2: just fast track it through. So it was a measure 650 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,840 Speaker 2: to block it, but I think it was kind of 651 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,879 Speaker 2: also understood that it could be reverse and so that's 652 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:02,840 Speaker 2: I think that's important to point out, because you know, 653 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:06,239 Speaker 2: it's still flowing to this day, and I haven't heard 654 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 2: anything from the Biden administration about the status of it, 655 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 2: even though the tribe has won some strategic lawsuits that 656 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 2: basically says it's flowing illegally, but the energy transfer partners 657 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 2: is willing to pay the fine for it to continue 658 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 2: to flow illegally, So you have an organization, a private 659 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:29,720 Speaker 2: security company called Tiger Swan Right that is operating hand 660 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,920 Speaker 2: in glove with the Martin County Sheriff's Department. You have 661 00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:40,360 Speaker 2: a federal Emergency Management legislation called eMac, which allows states 662 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 2: to solicit the support of other jurisdictions, local county sheriff's departments. 663 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,360 Speaker 2: I think there's like ninety two different law enforcement jurisdictions 664 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,640 Speaker 2: that were sent to Standing Rock to help police the protests. 665 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 3: And that was widely kind. 666 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 2: Of covered in the media at that time about the 667 00:39:56,239 --> 00:40:00,439 Speaker 2: private security and whatnot, But what wasn't covered so much 668 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 2: was the role of the FBI. 669 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:05,400 Speaker 1: So walk us through the FBI's connection to this Standing 670 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 1: Rock protests. And then, even though it's like fifty years later, 671 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 1: do you see any particular echoes of j Edgar Hoover's 672 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,799 Speaker 1: FBI and co intel pro Yeah. 673 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:22,440 Speaker 2: So, reporting by Ellen Brown through Grist revealed that the FBI, 674 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:24,799 Speaker 2: at any given point in time during the height of 675 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 2: the protests was operating anywhere between one to ten informants, 676 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,480 Speaker 2: and in fact, in one of the depositions, one of 677 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 2: the FBI agents, Jacob O'Connell, this FBI agen was called 678 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:37,840 Speaker 2: to the stand It was the first time that it 679 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,520 Speaker 2: was actually revealed in a public record that there were 680 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 2: FBI informants, and he even admitted that one of these 681 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 2: informants had been arrested. It wasn't just you know, people 682 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,240 Speaker 2: observing on the outside there. I would say, probably people 683 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:54,240 Speaker 2: who are deeply embedded within the movement itself, probably Native people. 684 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:54,719 Speaker 3: I don't know. 685 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:59,239 Speaker 2: We can only guess by what limited information. If you 686 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 2: even look at this deposition, O'Connell is more concerned about 687 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 2: the sources of income that are going into a standing 688 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 2: Rock protest. He's like, but yeah, we're just gathering intelligence. 689 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,080 Speaker 2: But it raises the question about in a criminal investigation, 690 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:18,720 Speaker 2: you're finding evidence to charge somebody out with an actual crime. 691 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,520 Speaker 2: But this is not an actual crime to just get 692 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,920 Speaker 2: money from people, Right, there were go fundmes that were 693 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:29,080 Speaker 2: set up, So you're not investigating a crime, So what 694 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 2: are you doing? In some ways, it's creating a chilling 695 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:38,160 Speaker 2: effect to say, now your personal privacy. If you decide 696 00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,360 Speaker 2: to go to a protest and you do a GoFundMe, 697 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,360 Speaker 2: or you get a gas card or something like that, 698 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,440 Speaker 2: or you do a fundraising event, you might be targeted 699 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:51,480 Speaker 2: with FBI surveillance for exercising a First Amendment right. They're 700 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,600 Speaker 2: looking at resources, they're tracking people. I don't know how 701 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:59,560 Speaker 2: many times they stole Vernon Belcourt's briefcase, but it appears 702 00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:05,000 Speaker 2: multiple times, and they stole at least three briefcases of 703 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:06,759 Speaker 2: this man. You know, he was a leader of the 704 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,719 Speaker 2: American Indian Movement. But they were gathering intelligence. That was 705 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,120 Speaker 2: their justifications. They're gathering intelligence because they never brought charges 706 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,000 Speaker 2: against him after stealing his briefcase, because he wasn't engaged 707 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,040 Speaker 2: in a criminal act. And I think we have to 708 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:22,840 Speaker 2: ask ourselves what are those lines, because it's very unclear 709 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:27,239 Speaker 2: to people. I think it's having even ben subpoena in myself, 710 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,759 Speaker 2: and like the questions that I was asked by the 711 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:34,000 Speaker 2: attorneys from the North Dakota side about whether I had 712 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 2: witnessed illegal activities, and I said, yes, of course I've 713 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:39,239 Speaker 2: witnessed illegal activities. 714 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 3: That's why I was there. 715 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,359 Speaker 2: You guys were viting leading Article six of the Constitutions 716 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,560 Speaker 2: that says that treaties are the supreme law of the land. 717 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,319 Speaker 2: Like we shouldn't have been there in the first vest 718 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:51,400 Speaker 2: we're trying to legal activity. 719 00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:53,520 Speaker 1: We were all standing there looking at it. 720 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:54,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. 721 00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,040 Speaker 1: The wait is I get wait, but what about you 722 00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,840 Speaker 1: guys like you didn't you see you guys do some 723 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:02,680 Speaker 1: illegal stuff. 724 00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's striking. 725 00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,600 Speaker 1: It's striking how similar that is to so much of 726 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,800 Speaker 1: what Hoover's FBI was up to. Have we learned anything? 727 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:16,279 Speaker 1: Are we any better off? 728 00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:20,480 Speaker 2: I think you have to go back to what the 729 00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:24,240 Speaker 2: people who were targeted by these investigations were actually asking. 730 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,680 Speaker 2: So you mentioned the Church Commission. You know, the Church 731 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:33,840 Speaker 2: Commission skipped over the FBI surveillance, the CIA surveillance of 732 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,839 Speaker 2: the American India Movement because they were supposed to have 733 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:41,880 Speaker 2: a hearing just by chance happened after the shootout in 734 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,840 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy five. You know, the Attorney General decided that 735 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,840 Speaker 2: just wasn't a good idea because it might compromise that 736 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,759 Speaker 2: investigation of the killing of two FBI agents. And so, 737 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:56,360 Speaker 2: following this reign of terror, Oglala people had been calling 738 00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,840 Speaker 2: for a congressional investigation of the role of the FBI 739 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:04,160 Speaker 2: and its participation in this time period and what it did, 740 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:09,000 Speaker 2: what it knew. There's also the botched investigation of the 741 00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:13,600 Speaker 2: murdered American Indian Movement activist Anime alquash. That could be 742 00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,640 Speaker 2: a whole nother podcast episode, but it's been revealed through 743 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:21,239 Speaker 2: FBI documents that the FBI knew within almost a week 744 00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:26,319 Speaker 2: of her assassination, who did it, when it happened, and 745 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,880 Speaker 2: where it happened. She was murdered in December of nineteen 746 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,959 Speaker 2: seventy five, but didn't formally identify her body until March 747 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,920 Speaker 2: of nineteen seventy six of the following year, and then 748 00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:39,600 Speaker 2: never charged anybody out for it until thirty years later. 749 00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,399 Speaker 2: That's a pretty poor track record if you think about it. 750 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,640 Speaker 2: If you knew at the time, who did it, when 751 00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:51,080 Speaker 2: it happened, why weren't they prosecuted. You know, there's so 752 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:54,640 Speaker 2: many questions that need answering, and I'm not the person 753 00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:58,560 Speaker 2: to answer those questions. That you know, the ball is 754 00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,280 Speaker 2: in the FBI's court. I would say the ball should 755 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:07,000 Speaker 2: be in Congress' court to provide actual oversight of this institution. 756 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:12,640 Speaker 1: I mean, full circle, help our listeners understand where the 757 00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,040 Speaker 1: Native American movement stands today. 758 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:19,640 Speaker 2: The water protector movement was a watershed moment, no pun intended, 759 00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:24,160 Speaker 2: but appreciate it. Yeah, I'll try to bring a little 760 00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:25,720 Speaker 2: bit of lightness to the serious topic. 761 00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:27,720 Speaker 3: You're a comedian. How do you do serious? 762 00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:29,560 Speaker 2: How do you do a serious podcast? 763 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,799 Speaker 1: Well, it's the podcast is fun, but I do find 764 00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:37,160 Speaker 1: myself like just getting pulled into the gravity of these situations. 765 00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,600 Speaker 1: And hats off to you because I appreciate the levity 766 00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:44,080 Speaker 1: that you've also been bringing to this conversation. We both 767 00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:48,239 Speaker 1: agree that Nick Cage movies are fantastic and that might 768 00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:50,600 Speaker 1: be the main takeaway from this conversation. 769 00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:55,240 Speaker 2: But just to kind of get back to your question 770 00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:57,200 Speaker 2: and to answer it in a serious way, I think 771 00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:01,600 Speaker 2: you know, there's a qualitative impact of the water protector movement, 772 00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:05,000 Speaker 2: meaning that it really raised the consciousness of a generation 773 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,239 Speaker 2: of Native people. But there's also the quantitative impact of 774 00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:10,879 Speaker 2: the water protector movement. There's a study that came out 775 00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:15,440 Speaker 2: several years ago by Old Change International and the Indigenous 776 00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:20,480 Speaker 2: Environmental Network that found that Indigenous led movements a challenging 777 00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,479 Speaker 2: fossil fuel extraction, pipelines, etc. 778 00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:26,840 Speaker 3: From all stages of the fossil. 779 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:31,640 Speaker 2: Fuel life cycle, accounted for challenging a quarter of carbon emissions. 780 00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:35,200 Speaker 2: In greenhouse gas emissions from Canada and the United States, 781 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:40,120 Speaker 2: two of the largest per capita polluters or emitters, and 782 00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:43,800 Speaker 2: that's a huge impact, right, Like we're punching well above 783 00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,279 Speaker 2: our weight class. We're like the minority of the minorities, 784 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:49,040 Speaker 2: but yet pulling a challenging at least a quarter of 785 00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,880 Speaker 2: carbon emissions. That's pretty impactful, right, So it can be 786 00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:56,400 Speaker 2: measured in that sense, and I think that's something to 787 00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:59,440 Speaker 2: be proud about. I write this in my book Our 788 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:03,520 Speaker 2: History is a Few Future. This interview that Madonna Thunderhawk 789 00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:07,839 Speaker 2: did with a young Pablo activist name Jennifer Marley, and 790 00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:11,319 Speaker 2: Madonna had been through at all FBI surveillance was at 791 00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:13,799 Speaker 2: wound in every major event of the Red Power era, 792 00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:17,520 Speaker 2: all the occupations, Alcatraz, et cetera. Was asked by jen 793 00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:19,960 Speaker 2: Marley like what, like, why would you do all these things? 794 00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,120 Speaker 2: It's obviously caused strain in your political life. And her answer, 795 00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:25,799 Speaker 2: without hesitation, was because I want to be a good 796 00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:30,080 Speaker 2: ancestor to future generations. And I think there's something really 797 00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:33,800 Speaker 2: compelling about that. You know that everyone who walked through 798 00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,440 Speaker 2: the Gates of Standing Rock wasn't necessarily an Indigenous person. 799 00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:43,279 Speaker 2: The movement was grounded in Indigenous values, but nonetheless, water 800 00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:47,440 Speaker 2: protector is not an Indigenous identity. It's a universal identity 801 00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,120 Speaker 2: when it's one that is future oriented, and I think 802 00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,480 Speaker 2: it can become really dark in these moments if we 803 00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:56,440 Speaker 2: think about the price that people had to pay, losing 804 00:47:56,480 --> 00:48:00,440 Speaker 2: your life, losing your freedom, losing your family. It's important 805 00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:04,839 Speaker 2: to recognize those sacrifices, but it's also important to think 806 00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:08,520 Speaker 2: about this is something that is not just a moment, 807 00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:12,120 Speaker 2: you know, it's a moment within a larger movement of history. 808 00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:14,960 Speaker 2: I think there's some comfort in that, and it gets 809 00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:19,160 Speaker 2: us beyond this really cynical and dark electoral cycles that 810 00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,560 Speaker 2: we tend to fall into every four years, and to 811 00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:26,720 Speaker 2: think about generations and not just election cycles. 812 00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:27,520 Speaker 3: Wow. 813 00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:32,000 Speaker 1: Very well, said Nick Astis. Thank you so much for 814 00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:36,239 Speaker 1: joining us here in the snaff universe. If I may 815 00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:39,359 Speaker 1: coin an incredibly stupid word, but no, it has been 816 00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:42,080 Speaker 1: really a privilege to learn from you today and I 817 00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:44,040 Speaker 1: really really appreciate the conversation. 818 00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:46,920 Speaker 2: Thanks Ed, I really I'm really honored to be on 819 00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:48,120 Speaker 2: this podcast. 820 00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:56,239 Speaker 1: Snafoo is a production of iHeartRadio, Film Nation Entertainment, and 821 00:48:56,280 --> 00:49:00,719 Speaker 1: Pacific Electric Picture Company in association with Gilded Audio. This 822 00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,239 Speaker 1: season of Snafoo is based on the book The Burglary 823 00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:06,759 Speaker 1: The Discovery of Jay Edgar Hoover's Secret FBI written by 824 00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:11,680 Speaker 1: Betty Metzker. It's executive produced by me Ed Helms, Milan Papelka, 825 00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:16,160 Speaker 1: Mike Valbo, Whitney Donaldson, Andy Chug, Dylan Fagan, and Betty Metzker. 826 00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,719 Speaker 1: Our lead producers are Sarah Joyner and Alyssa Martino. Producer 827 00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:24,480 Speaker 1: is Stephen Wood. Our associate producer Tory Smith edited this 828 00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:29,320 Speaker 1: bonus episode. Nevin Callapoly is our production assistant. Fact checking 829 00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:33,240 Speaker 1: by Charles Richter. Our creative executive is Brett Harris. Editing, 830 00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:36,640 Speaker 1: sound design and original music by Ben Chugg, Engineering and 831 00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:40,280 Speaker 1: technical direction by Nick Dooley. Theme music by Dan Rosatto. 832 00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:44,240 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Alison Cohen, Daniel Welsh, and Ben Riizak. 833 00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,520 Speaker 1: Additional thanks to director Joanna Hamilton for letting us use 834 00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:51,080 Speaker 1: some of the original interviews from her incredible documentary nineteen 835 00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:56,040 Speaker 1: seventy one. Finally, our deepest gratitude to the courageous Citizens 836 00:49:56,080 --> 00:50:01,120 Speaker 1: Commission to Investigate the FBI, Bill Davidan, Ralph Daniel Judy Fine, Gold, 837 00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:06,879 Speaker 1: Heath Forsyth, Bonnie Rains, John Rains, Sarah Schumer and Bob Williamson.