1 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:09,960 Speaker 1: I'm t T and I'm Zakiah, and this is Dope Labs. 2 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 1: science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship. 4 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 2: Tt. I've been thinking a lot about maps lately. 5 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: Every time I see a headline it's talking about border patrol, crackdowns, ice, 6 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: tensions at the borders, or even maps in the different context, 7 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: which is like I call these imaginary maps, but like 8 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: political maps, you know that follow different lines and redistricting, 9 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: it's clear that maps are not just neutral tools. 10 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 2: Right. I was reading this book it's called The Address Book, 11 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 2: and it basically says where you even get mapped in 12 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 2: a zip code that is like a better indicator of 13 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 2: like your lifetime earnings and success and health than other 14 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 2: factors that we may think, like what you're you were born, right, 15 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 2: that's wild to me, It is really wild. 16 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: And it's clear that the lines that are drawn on 17 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 1: maps are tied to power and they've been used to 18 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: enforce who gets access, who gets surveiled, who gets shut out. 19 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 1: And it's not just history, it's happening right now. Like 20 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 1: you were saying with there's a lot of redistricting in Texas, 21 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 1: and it's all very confusing to me because I know 22 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: nothing about this. Yeah, and everybody shouting border, border, border, 23 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: and I'm like, baby, do you know what a border 24 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: really is? 25 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 2: Right? When did we start talking about this? So today 26 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 2: we're digging right into it, into the politics of map making, 27 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,479 Speaker 2: borders and how these lines, both visible and invisible, shape 28 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 2: our lives. 29 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: And we couldn't think of a better person to talk 30 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: to than doctor Joshua Enwood, a professor of geography and 31 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: African American Studies at my alma mater, the Pennsylvania State University. 32 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: His work dives into racialized cartographies and cartography is the 33 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: study of map. He also researches spatial justice and how 34 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: the Green Book functioned as a countermapping during Jim Crow, 35 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: Doctor Mwood, We're so excited to have you here. 36 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 3: Thanks so much. 37 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 4: I really appreciate the invitation. And it's always great to 38 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 4: be with some Penn State alone. And all I can 39 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 4: say is, we. 40 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 2: Are Penn State. Oh here we go. 41 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: Okay, So let's start from the beginning. Maps feel natural 42 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 1: to us now, because I mean every device that we 43 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: have has a map function on it. But at some 44 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: point there had to be someone that decided, hey, let 45 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: me start drawing lines on a sheet of paper to 46 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: create this thing. 47 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 2: Before we were all looking at Google maps, you know, 48 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 2: and before that there was map quest. I don't know 49 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 2: if you remember that, but I had a lot of printouts, okay, 50 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 2: maps for like these hand drawn interpretations of the world. So, 51 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 2: doctor Enwood, can you start us broadly before we zoom in, 52 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 2: and just explain to us what maps mean to a society. 53 00:02:57,919 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 4: Well, you know, one of the ways I think we'd 54 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 4: kind of nice to jump into this conversation is to 55 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 4: think just really broadly for a second about geography. And 56 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 4: you know, one of the things I always tell my 57 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 4: undergraduate students, and I always tell my graduate students, and 58 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 4: I always tell anybody who will listen, is that geography is, 59 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:14,799 Speaker 4: for most of us one of the most important things 60 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 4: in our lives that we don't really think critically about. 61 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 4: And the places you work, the places you live, if 62 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 4: you go to worship someplace, the community you grew up on. 63 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 4: It did not just magically happen. I did not just 64 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 4: appear out of the ether. But it's the result of 65 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 4: really particular economic systems, of political systems, of culture, and 66 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 4: it's this kind of coming together of all of these 67 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 4: different things that really produces space and place. And if 68 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 4: you think about it, maps being human inventions are the 69 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 4: invitation for us to think. 70 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 3: About some of those power dynamics and some of. 71 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 4: Those economic dynamics that go into how we think about 72 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 4: geography and the way that we relate to these different 73 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 4: kind of places and spaces. And so the reality is 74 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 4: is that maps, in some kind of form or another 75 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 4: arguably have been around for as long as humans have 76 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 4: been on earth. And the reason for that is is 77 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 4: that you can communicate a lot of really complicated information, 78 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 4: and you can communicate a lot of spatial information in 79 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 4: a way that when it was paper maps was super portable. 80 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 4: And these maps and these ways of thinking are super 81 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 4: important to document experience, and it's a hugely important piece 82 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 4: of human history is how we think about these relationships 83 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 4: and how we think about how we engage with one another, 84 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 4: and maps reflect that. 85 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 2: Thinking about even little neighborhood maps, I used to drop 86 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 2: out like whose house was where? And how far and 87 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 2: like what's the shortest path? And I remember, I don't 88 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 2: know if anybody else did this, but I would just 89 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 2: try to make these little routes from where I live 90 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 2: to my school, and like I was making my own 91 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 2: little maps of my little world. And so before we 92 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 2: zoom out to bigger maps US, I have a little 93 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 2: bit more of a historical question, like is there you're saying, 94 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 2: as long as we know, but I think I tend 95 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 2: to think about like the globe or like a US map. 96 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,159 Speaker 2: Are there, like any artifacts like that that are super 97 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 2: important that we should be thinking about for a time 98 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 2: scale or just know that maps have always been around. 99 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 4: Well, I mean there's certainly some you know, if you 100 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 4: go back and you can look at in particular from 101 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 4: the era of kind of colonization and the era of imperialism. 102 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 4: I think for most of us, those are probably a 103 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 4: lot of the maps that we're familiar with. They're often 104 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 4: in history textbooks, there's sometimes in geography textbooks that are 105 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 4: often used to illustrate historical processes, age of explorers, or 106 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 4: whatever it is that you necessarily want to think about 107 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 4: and talk about. 108 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 3: And so for a lot of us those maps are important. 109 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 3: But to give you a sense. 110 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 4: Of what we talk about when we think about why 111 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:54,840 Speaker 4: maps matter and how they reflect particular kinds of power dynamics, 112 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 4: there's a really famous map from the time. 113 00:05:58,640 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 3: Of the Crusades. 114 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 4: What it does is it places Jerusalem in the center 115 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 4: of the world. And what it does is it means 116 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 4: that all of the rest of the world is situated 117 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:12,720 Speaker 4: around that one central point. And so that reflects at 118 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 4: the time, really the kind of power of the Church 119 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 4: and also a time of Western intellectual thought which really 120 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 4: plays Jerusalem and Christianity at the center of the universe. 121 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 4: And so there's maps like that that we can start 122 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 4: to go back and look at and think about and 123 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,280 Speaker 4: work through and really start to try to understand how 124 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 4: people were thinking about, in this case, not just their 125 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 4: relationship with one another, but their relationship in the broader cosmos, 126 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 4: and how it relates to some of the kind of 127 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 4: supernatural forces that they were thinking about or trying to 128 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 4: work through as it relates to early Christianity. One of 129 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 4: the first map makers was actually an ancient Greek named Ptolome, 130 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 4: and some of your listeners might know he was one 131 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 4: of the early Greek mathematicians who really figured out that 132 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 4: the Earth was round and not flat. I'm sure you 133 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 4: could go back and you could find maps in ancient 134 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 4: China that go back maybe even earlier and really think 135 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 4: about how some of the early Chinese dynasties were also 136 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 4: in relationship with each other, the Silk Road, those kinds 137 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 4: of things, and so maps are central to the human 138 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 4: experience and being a storytelling species. Maps are really central 139 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 4: to that process and how we think about how humans 140 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 4: can tell a spatial story. And humans are also a 141 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 4: species historically that have traveled and explore and push boundaries, 142 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 4: and of course this causes conflict, and we can talk 143 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 4: about that too, but that's a piece of wide cartography 144 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 4: and mat making is really important. 145 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: You talk about Ptolemy and how in some ancient Chinese dynasties, 146 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: I'm sure that they were making maps, but who did 147 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: they dub the map makers? Was this like a special 148 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: job for only certain types of people that had a 149 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: certain pedigree, or how do they decide who has the 150 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: power to do that? 151 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 2: Because it's a really powerful tool. 152 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 4: You know, it goes back really into the development of 153 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 4: modern Western ways of thinking, at least in the context 154 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 4: of Anglo American geography. We're talking about, you know, the 155 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 4: fourteen fifteen, sixteen hundreds, when cartography, which is the science 156 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 4: of map making, really starts to get its kind of 157 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 4: intellectual outlines, and as that grows, it grows along with colonialism, 158 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 4: it grows along with imperialism, it grows along with colonization, 159 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 4: and it was really the role of a lot of 160 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 4: European monarchs and monarchies to try to map and understand 161 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 4: the world, and probably again map making being the center 162 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 4: of power. I don't know how many of your listeners 163 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 4: have ever been to Grantwich, England, but you can go 164 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 4: to the observatory there and you can think about the 165 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 4: establishment of the prime meridian. 166 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 2: Ooh, I remember when I learned what the prime meridian was. 167 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 2: It was a long time ago, but I remember it 168 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 2: feeling like meridian was a fancy word. 169 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,679 Speaker 1: I don't remember ever learning what the primary When he 170 00:08:57,720 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: said it, I was like, I don't know what you're 171 00:08:59,200 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: talking about. 172 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:03,199 Speaker 2: Well, well, you know on the map there's the long lines, 173 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 2: those that are vertical, those are longitudinal lines, and then 174 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 2: there are the lines that go horizontal and those are 175 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 2: our latitudinal lines. So at the middle there's the equator, 176 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 2: and we talked about that so much throughout school. The 177 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,959 Speaker 2: zero degree line, right, it splits our planet into the 178 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 2: north and south hemispheres. But the prime meridian is our 179 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 2: basically like your tall equator. It splits our planet into 180 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 2: our eastern and western hemispheres. Ah okay, so. 181 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 1: It's the twelve o'clock six o'clock line on our big 182 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: clock of the world. 183 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 4: And the reason that that's located there, and the prime 184 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 4: meridian that's located there, which is super important to map making, 185 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 4: is because of the needs of the British Empire at 186 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 4: the time and the role of British science and technology 187 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 4: and the way that it was connected to both the 188 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 4: growth of early capitalism in Britain but also the growth 189 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 4: of the British Imperial State. And so there's those kind 190 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 4: of technological advancements that also make map it's more accurate. 191 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:05,719 Speaker 4: That kind of tie into a larger story of how 192 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 4: maps and not making connect to power and power relationships. 193 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 2: There's a viral clip right now of woman talking about 194 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 2: she says when she travels, she says that she's going 195 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 2: to the far West if she's going to the United States, 196 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 2: and people laugh, and she was like, but when I 197 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 2: say Middle East, you don't laugh because it is accepted. 198 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 2: And I'm like, Middle East to who, right? And I 199 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 2: think this is just kind of very similar to the 200 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 2: same thing You're saying, and even in preparation for this episode, 201 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 2: I was thinking about this in the context of power 202 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 2: and what it means to be a member when you 203 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 2: start making these maps, and you said these maps tell stories, 204 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,439 Speaker 2: there are also stories we tell about ourselves about what 205 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 2: groups we belong to. I belonged to the group on 206 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 2: this side of this river on the map, or this 207 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 2: side of this line on the map. And I was like, 208 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 2: you know what, I should start calling the United States 209 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 2: Northern Mexico. And I was like, I don't even remember. 210 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 2: I don't know what your history is. Like I was like, 211 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 2: but I don't even remember when did we bring in 212 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 2: Texas and all of these things. And so I went 213 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 2: back to the Treaty of Guadaloupe Hudalgo and I was 214 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 2: reading all of these things, and I was like, Hey, 215 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 2: this isn't even really our land, okay, you know, And 216 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 2: I think there's so much history. In the same way 217 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 2: that you say maps tell stories, they also can collapse. 218 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 2: You know a lot of stories as well. And when 219 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 2: we think about maps as tools of power, and we 220 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 2: think about somebody had to draw these things in the 221 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 2: same way that we talk about different groups of identities, 222 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 2: in a way I feel like maps could be more 223 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 2: of a social construct than an objective reality, because if 224 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,599 Speaker 2: you think about it, the land itself doesn't change, just 225 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 2: what the value we assigned to it does exactly. And 226 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 2: so I'm curious, doctor Ewood, in your experience research classes 227 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 2: that you're teaching, do you find yourself leaning towards or 228 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 2: away from the idea of maps being more about human 229 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 2: decisions or do you find that you feel like they're 230 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 2: more about geography for you? 231 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 4: Well, I mean, that's a really interesting kind of provocative question, 232 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 4: and I think, you know, as a way to make 233 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 4: me jump into this, you know, I always tell my 234 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 4: students being in the Northern Hemisphere, there's nothing that says 235 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 4: in reality that the North is always positioned at the 236 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 4: top of a map, right, And that in itself reveals 237 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 4: a particular kind of way of thinking about a set 238 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 4: of spatial relationships and reveals a kind of way of 239 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 4: what we think is. 240 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 3: Kind of important. 241 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 4: And I had a chance to go to Australia a 242 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 4: few years ago, and if you go to Australia, most 243 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 4: of their maps actually have South on the top, and 244 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 4: it takes a minute to kind of think about those 245 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 4: kind of relationships and the way that we in the 246 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 4: Northern Hemisphere and in particularly in the West, really put 247 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 4: forward a vision of ourselves is the center of the universe. 248 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:10,199 Speaker 4: And so why we might kind of chuckle at that 249 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 4: old map I mentioned earlier about how Jerusalem is the 250 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,679 Speaker 4: center of the world and that this is really the 251 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 4: center orientation in a real sense, we still do the 252 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 4: same thing. We just placed North America or he placed 253 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 4: Western Europe, or he placed the Northern Hemisphere for most 254 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 4: of our maps and most of our globes as the 255 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 4: center of our attention. 256 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 1: So it's not really about geography, it's about power and perspective. 257 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: So always like how Tom Cruise refuses to stand next 258 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 1: to the tall people in his movies, go back and 259 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:42,959 Speaker 1: watch Top Gun Maverick, people either have to be sitting 260 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: down or be far away from him. John Hamm sitting 261 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 1: down throughout the entire movie. 262 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 4: And you know, for me, the interesting piece of maps 263 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 4: is really about the power relationships and the human constructions 264 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 4: that they represent. And so an example that I using classes. 265 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 4: You know, there's different kind of projections for maps, and 266 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 4: I'm sure all of your listeners know. If you take 267 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,199 Speaker 4: a globe and you flatten it out, if you want 268 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 4: to test this, you can peel an orange and you 269 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 4: flatten it out. There's going to be distortions and things 270 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 4: are not going to line up, And depending on the 271 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 4: different kind of projection you use, you're going to have 272 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 4: a different set of distortions in that map. 273 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 3: And during the Cold War. 274 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 4: A projection that was really favored by the US government 275 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 4: and in particular textbook makers who wrote textbooks or brown 276 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 4: geography was a Mercader projection. And probably view a lot 277 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 4: are familiar with that Mercader projection from your. 278 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 3: Time maybe in high school. 279 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 4: And if you think about it and Mercader projections, they 280 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 4: tend to exaggerate the size of things in the far 281 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 4: northern part of the map and the far southern part 282 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 4: of the map. And so for example, Greenland off the 283 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 4: coast of Canada, and a Ricadi projection often looks as 284 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 4: big as Africa when it it would just fit into 285 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 4: a small piece of Africa. Well, the reason the US 286 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 4: government liked to use this projection is is it made 287 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 4: the Soviet Union look exceptionally large in comparison to the 288 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 4: United States and Western Europe. And so when you started 289 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 4: to talk about Cold War and geopolitics and you started 290 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 4: to want to represent the threat that the Soviet Union 291 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 4: presented to Western Europe and to the United States. A 292 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 4: mercator projection in a really subtle way, because it distorted 293 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 4: the Soviet Union, made it look much much larger in 294 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 4: land mass than it really was, was a really effective 295 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 4: tool for representing that geopolitical reality and the geopolitical reality 296 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 4: that the US government wanted to give to US society 297 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 4: and in particularly US school children. And so that's where 298 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 4: I think I'd really come down on that kind of 299 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 4: question and think about maps tell stories, and so when 300 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 4: you see a map, you want to ask yourself, what 301 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 4: is the story that this map maker is trying to 302 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 4: tell me? And the map on your phone is telling 303 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 4: you how to get from point A to point B, 304 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 4: but it's still telling you a story. It's still picking 305 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 4: a route, it's still making decisions about. 306 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 3: Where that route is, how it goes through the city. 307 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 4: It's of course taking real time data in terms of 308 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 4: traffic and those kinds of things or whatever, but it's 309 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 4: still a story about how you should navigate a city 310 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 4: space or a country lane, or wherever it is that 311 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 4: you're traveling from. 312 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 2: This is actually true. 313 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: I recently saw a video on Instagram where someone was 314 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: using some type of software where you could grab a country, 315 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: or in part of the video, they grabbed Alaska and 316 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: you can drag it all over the world and see 317 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: what the actual size of those countries are. I'm gonna 318 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: drop a link in the episode description so that you 319 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: can see it on Instagram, and we'll probably make some 320 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 1: things on Instagram to show you what that looks like. 321 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. 322 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: Maps when we think about inequality and how it's used 323 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:05,360 Speaker 1: to enforce inequalities. We see that in the United States 324 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:09,239 Speaker 1: with redlining and redistricting and things like that. Can you 325 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 1: talk more about how racism shapes the way that maps 326 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 1: have been created and used historically? 327 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 4: Oh sure, I mean redlining for those listeners who maybe 328 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 4: don't know. Back historically, there are these Sandborn maps, and 329 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 4: they were insurance maps, and in particular fire insurance maps, 330 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 4: and every city had a Sandborn map when they had 331 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 4: different toads for the insurance risk of lending money in 332 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 4: different neighborhoods. If I remember right, I think green meant 333 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 4: like you were really safe. Yellow meant that you were 334 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 4: you had some risk if you lent money or provided 335 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 4: insurance in those neighborhoods and red was no money, no insurance, 336 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,159 Speaker 4: it's a high risk for you to ensure property in 337 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 4: those neighborhoods. That's the process of redlining were quite literally, 338 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 4: banks and insurance companies would draw red lines around neighborhoods, 339 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 4: and one of the key criteria was the question of 340 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 4: race and who lived in that neighborhood, and neighborhoods that 341 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,640 Speaker 4: were predominantly African American or other persons of color were 342 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 4: red lined, and it meant that there was no capital 343 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,880 Speaker 4: or very little capital that would inflow into those neighborhoods. 344 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 4: And interestingly, in a lot of cities, one of the 345 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 4: ways that we can see the kind of historic realities 346 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 4: of redlining are those interstate maps that you often get 347 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 4: if you stop at a rest stop when you're traveling. 348 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:36,640 Speaker 4: At least when I was a kid, used to get 349 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 4: like the little map, but the rest stop would be 350 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 4: about the state. 351 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 3: And if you look at those maps, and you in 352 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 3: particularly look at where those highways. 353 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:48,880 Speaker 4: Are located in every American city really in the United States, 354 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 4: often those highways were cited in what they call blighted 355 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 4: neighborhoods that were often had a high number of racial 356 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 4: minorities who lived there. And so to give you a 357 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 4: sense in the city of Atlanta, which is where I 358 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 4: wrote my dissertation about, if you look at where they 359 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 4: built I seventy five through the heart of the city, 360 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 4: and you look at where they built I. Twenty, those 361 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 4: were historically significant African American neighborhoods, and the city built 362 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 4: those highways because the writing was on the wall in 363 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 4: the late nineteen fifties and early nineteen sixties, it was 364 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 4: pretty clear that Atlanta, Georgia, by the end of the 365 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 4: nineteen sixties, in the first part of the nineteen seventies, 366 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 4: was going to have a significant enough African American population 367 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 4: in that city that African Americans were going to be 368 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 4: able to elect an African American mayor in the city 369 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 4: of Atlanta. And the white power structure used highway construction 370 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 4: to try to remove black people from that community and 371 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 4: to keep Atlanta and the city government in the hands 372 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 4: of the white power structure for as long as they 373 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 4: possibly could. And what's true in Atlanta is true all 374 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 4: over the country. And so that's the power of maps. 375 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 4: I mean, the story of highways in America isn't a 376 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,199 Speaker 4: story of getting people to go from point A to 377 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 4: point B in the fastest possible route, particularly in American cities. 378 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 4: It's what Debra Archer wrote in a Law Review article 379 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 4: what she titled white Roads through Black Bedrooms and the 380 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 4: role of highways in America and in segregation is a 381 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 4: hugely important story to tell, and you can tell that 382 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 4: with what, at the surface, for many people probably appears 383 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 4: as an innocuous highway map, but actually represents a story of. 384 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:40,959 Speaker 3: Segregation and resegregation in American cities. 385 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 2: This is a really good point, and it's something I 386 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 2: know from our time t T when we were in 387 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 2: grad school in Durham, Black Wall Street in Durham and 388 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 2: thinking about these great areas and we saw the fifteen 389 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 2: to five OHO one corridor go through there and be 390 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 2: built in totally disrupt neighborhoods. I can also remember even 391 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 2: in Greensboro where I grew up, when the highway came 392 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 2: through town and it was like we could walk to 393 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 2: the edge of our neighborhood and see where they were 394 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:07,479 Speaker 2: building a highway. 395 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: Wow. 396 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,360 Speaker 2: And I'm always curious about that. When I'm driving. Highways 397 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 2: feel like they should be straight, But do you ever 398 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 2: find yourself like on a windy part, and you're like, 399 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 2: why are we going out this way? Which neighborhoods do 400 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 2: we avoid? Which neighborhoods Even as I'm riding along, which 401 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 2: neighborhoods can I see directly to the houses and which 402 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 2: have those sound barriers and trees around them off of 403 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 2: the highway. I'm always interested in like that kind of dynamic. 404 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 2: And I think we've been talking doctor Mwood with you 405 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 2: about maps and looking at them to tell stories that 406 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 2: have happened in the past. And I'm really interested and 407 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 2: curious if you know anything about what's happening right now. 408 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 2: When we think about Google Maps or Apple Maps giving 409 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 2: you alternate routes through neighborhoods, is there any difference in 410 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 2: which neighborhoods traffic is pushed through, or even the impact 411 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 2: of it. 412 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 4: To circle back a little bit to what we talked 413 00:21:55,600 --> 00:22:00,200 Speaker 4: about earlier in this idea of geographies about economics, it's 414 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 4: about politics, it's about cultures, but all of these kinds 415 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 4: of things. That's an example of how we produce space, 416 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 4: and we produce space to be used in particular kinds 417 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 4: of ways and in particular kinds of contexts, and the 418 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 4: production of space often gives access to some folks while 419 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 4: also at the same time denies access to other folks. 420 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 4: And so there was a group I was working with 421 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 4: in Mississippi. And we often think about the civil rights 422 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 4: movement as happening in the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties, 423 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 4: and of course it did. But what's really interesting, and 424 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 4: I think a decade that we don't give enough attention to, 425 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 4: is the nineteen seventies. Because the nineteen seventies were a 426 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 4: time when all of the hard fought victories of the 427 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 4: civil rights movement were actually being put into practice across 428 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:51,719 Speaker 4: the United States. And so this gentleman was a lawyer 429 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 4: in Mississippi. And so as schools become integrated in Mississippi, 430 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 4: what counties in Mississippi would do is they would be 431 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 4: a school kind of in the middle of nowhere, and 432 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 4: then they would design communities around that school, and they 433 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 4: would ensure that, because of zoning, houses had to be 434 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 4: a particular kind of size or had to be a 435 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 4: particular kind of look, and they would build these concentric 436 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 4: zones around there. And what they essentially were doing was 437 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 4: making it impossible for any poor Mississippian to have access 438 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 4: to this brand new school and an effect. What they 439 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 4: were doing was resegregating the Mississippi school the public schools 440 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 4: system without calling it the formal segregation that existed in 441 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 4: the nineteen forties, ninety fifties, ninety sixties, when groups like 442 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 4: the Student Non Violent Coordinating Committee were fighting to integrate 443 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 4: those schools. And so that's why I often say that 444 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,479 Speaker 4: geography is the most important thing in our lives that 445 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,120 Speaker 4: most of us don't think about, because if you were 446 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 4: just to drive through that community, you would see a 447 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 4: bunch of really nice homes, You would see a bunch 448 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 4: of folks living in upper middle class lifestyle. You would 449 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 4: come to the school in the middle and if you 450 00:23:58,160 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 4: didn't really know what to think about, or if you 451 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 4: didn't really know kind of history of that, it would 452 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 4: just seem like a normal way that the school and 453 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 4: the community grew up together. But it was an actually 454 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 4: concerted effort to resegregate Mississippi schools in the nineteen seventies. 455 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 4: And there's all kinds of examples like that that go on, 456 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,400 Speaker 4: including in the twenty first century, jerrymandering and the way 457 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,120 Speaker 4: that we think about how we draw political boundaries, for example, 458 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 4: that totally relate to this idea of making geography and 459 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 4: also the power of maps and the power of zoning 460 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,479 Speaker 4: and the power of local government to create space and 461 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 4: create particular kinds of representations of that space. 462 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 2: For our listeners who don't understand that, could you speak 463 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 2: a little bit more explicitly about jerrymandering and these political 464 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 2: maps and zones and why this is a tool or 465 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 2: how this is a tool. 466 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,359 Speaker 4: Yeah, sure, I mean so, I'm sure most listeners or 467 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 4: maybe all listeners know. In the US House of Representatives, 468 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 4: unlike the Senate, where every state gets to senators regardless 469 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 4: of population, in the House of Representatives, political representation comes 470 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 4: down to a state's population, and a state with a 471 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 4: larger population like California, gets a lot more representatives in 472 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 4: the House of Representatives than a state of Wyoming, which 473 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 4: has one representative because they don't have very much population, 474 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 4: even though Wyoming is a huge state, and so different 475 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 4: states often do those political boundaries differently, and so in 476 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 4: New York, for example, there is I believe, a nonpartisan 477 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 4: commission that draws those political boundaries to try to create 478 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 4: competitive districts and to try to create a fair representation 479 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:48,120 Speaker 4: of the population in the Congress, as we're witnessing in Texas. 480 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 4: Some states like Texas, it's a decision that's completely in 481 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 4: the hands of the legislature. And essentially what that means 482 00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 4: is it's politicians picking their voters, not voters picking their politicians. 483 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 4: And there has been a long history in this country, 484 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,680 Speaker 4: going back before the Civil Rights Movement, but after the 485 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 4: Civil rights movement as well of using political district drawing 486 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 4: power to create different districts, some districts that are going 487 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 4: to be safe Republicans, some that are going to be 488 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 4: safe democratic. And there's also been a history in this 489 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 4: country of using gerry mandarin to get particular kinds of 490 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:32,880 Speaker 4: racialized outcomes in terms of representation. And so that's the 491 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 4: role that Jerrymanderin plays in the United States in terms 492 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,719 Speaker 4: of a politics and of political representation. 493 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: When we think about how our maps are drawn, there 494 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: have been communities you're a lot of your research is 495 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: based in this where they say I see your map, 496 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: I raise you another map. Things like the Green Book 497 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 1: that are created, so maps for safety and resistance. Can 498 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,640 Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about the Green Book and 499 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: your research and what you've found, like its origins and 500 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 1: its purpose. 501 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,360 Speaker 4: So A big piece of I think what's interesting about 502 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 4: matt making and cartography, and in particular about the Black 503 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 4: experience in America is the role of black cartographers and 504 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 4: black cartography in the African American experience in the United States. 505 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 4: And you know, you can go back to someone like 506 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 4: Ida Wells Barnett, who was still active in Memphis, Sennessees 507 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 4: what will it be from the turn of the nineteenth 508 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 4: century to the twentieth century. She was really involved heavily 509 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,439 Speaker 4: in the anti lynching campaigns that were going on in 510 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 4: the South. She's an example of an African American woman 511 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,959 Speaker 4: in this case who used cartography and who used visual 512 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 4: representations of the black experience to advocate for anti lynching 513 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 4: legislation in the US. And then you can also think 514 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 4: about someone like WBD Boys and some of the stuff 515 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,400 Speaker 4: that he did for I think it was the Chicago 516 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 4: World's Fair and the exposition there where he came up 517 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 4: with these infographics related to the African American experience. And 518 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 4: some of those infographics don't traditionally look like what we 519 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 4: think of as a traditional map, but they are a 520 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 4: cartographic expression of the black experience and provide a really 521 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 4: interesting snapshot of the black experience in the United States 522 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 4: at that time, and they're really powerful representations of the 523 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 4: black experience, and we're a real tool to both represent 524 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 4: the fact that African Americans in many cases were not 525 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,719 Speaker 4: just surviving but thriving in parts of the United States, 526 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 4: but also show some disparities between white communities and black 527 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 4: communities as a way to advocate for more resources and 528 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 4: more equality. And so during the nineteen tens, twenties, thirties, forties, 529 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 4: fifties into the nineteen sixties, large parts of the United 530 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 4: States of America were segregated. And if you were an 531 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 4: African American motorist traveling, particularly in the US South. 532 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 3: But also the reality is. 533 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 4: In a sundown town in Illinois or Michigan, you would 534 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 4: not be welcome in hotels or restaurants or any of 535 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 4: the ways that many white Americans kind of took for 536 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 4: granted when they were traveling places to stay. And so 537 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 4: there's this guy, his name is Victor Green. He was 538 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 4: a postman in New York City. He began collecting people 539 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 4: would send him postcards. He would travel, he would collect 540 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 4: the names and addresses of homes throughout the United States 541 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 4: where black men, women, and children when they're traveling, say 542 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 4: through Naxville, Tennessee, could call up this private home and 543 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 4: they would have a place to stay or a place 544 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 4: to get a meal. And that Green Book really represents 545 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 4: a couple of things. One, it represents the ways in 546 00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 4: which black folks were using again maybe not a traditional map, 547 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 4: but some geographic expertise and a kind of cartography to 548 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 4: navigate a contested terrain. But two, I think which is 549 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 4: also really interesting is because there's names and addresses and businesses. 550 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 4: It also represents because he produced green Books every year 551 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 4: or every few years, it really represents a really powerful 552 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 4: snapshot of African American capital and really important African American 553 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 4: communities throughout the United States that are also super important 554 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 4: to that broad history of the black experience in America. 555 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 4: And so the Green Book is not just a representation 556 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 4: of someone who is doing good civil rights work and 557 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 4: doing good community work. It's also a representation of the 558 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 4: dynamism and the complexity of black communities throughout the United States, 559 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 4: where in city after city after city, you had these 560 00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 4: black Meca spaces where you had successful black businesses, you 561 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 4: had successful black doctors and lawyers and folks who owned 562 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 4: homes and who use their homes to facilitate travel across 563 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 4: the United States. And so that Green Book is really 564 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 4: an important document and an important set of addresses. And again, 565 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 4: if humans are storytelling species, an important book that tells 566 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 4: an important story about the black experience. Even though if 567 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 4: you found that, you might just look at a bunch 568 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 4: of addresses. I don't really understand necessarily now what's so 569 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 4: important about that, But that is what's important about it, 570 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 4: even in the twenty first century. 571 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: Yes, I love this, and I think it helps us 572 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: see maps as more than just this authority on navigation, 573 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: but seeing how maps can be about survival and belonging 574 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: and even justice or restoring some type of balance or 575 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 1: creating some safety. We talked about Ptolemy and I'm like, 576 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: who's the next Copernicus? Right, Like where we shift our 577 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: view and say, okay, you know we've been previously thinking 578 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: about maps and centering these kind of folks. You know, 579 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: what does it look like to add some justice and 580 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: some more civil rights and things like that into cartography. 581 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: And so doctor and what you've written about spatial justice, 582 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: I'm curious if you could give us like an overview, 583 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: like what does that mean? 584 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 2: And how does that connect these ideas. 585 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 4: I don't know if any of your listeners or I 586 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 4: don't know if y'all are familiar with this art project 587 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 4: that was going on in Chicago called the Folded Map Project. 588 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 2: Yes, the Folded Map Project. That's there's this black woman 589 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 2: artist that's doing this, Tanika Lewis Johnson. Well, we have 590 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 2: to put a link to that in the description to 591 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 2: check it out. 592 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 4: So in Chicago, the roads run north, south, east, west, 593 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,959 Speaker 4: and so I guess the folks who are Cubs fans 594 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 4: and white Sox fans know there's a north side and 595 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 4: there's the south side. And historically the south side of 596 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 4: Chicago is historically African American. And so you can have 597 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 4: an address on a street and it can be say 598 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 4: North Addison Street, or it could be South Addison Street, Okay. 599 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 4: And what this artist does is they take a map 600 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 4: and they quite really take those two addresses and they 601 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 4: fold the map together, and then they take pictures of 602 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:11,719 Speaker 4: the buildings or the houses or whatever is there at 603 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 4: those addresses. And it's an invitation to think about the 604 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 4: larger racial dynamics in Chicago, which, despite the fact that 605 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 4: it was in the north, probably a lot of listeners 606 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 4: know Martin Luther King in the nineteen sixties, nineteen sixty six, 607 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 4: nineteen sixty seven went to Chicago and he fought a 608 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 4: hard fought and long running battle to try to integrate 609 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 4: housing in Chicago, because Chicago is a very segregated city. 610 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 4: And the story that this map maker tells is two things. One, 611 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 4: it tells a difference between how again space is made. 612 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 4: Those geographies didn't just happen. You can see the difference 613 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 4: of buildings, different in structures in different parts of the city. 614 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 4: But it also tells the story of what geographer Ruth 615 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 4: Wilson Gilmour in some cases talks about as the kind 616 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 4: of organized abandonment of black spaces in the city, where 617 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 4: urban redevelopment and money flows in one direction and it 618 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 4: flows out of another direction. And so that is an 619 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:09,760 Speaker 4: example of using map making, using cartography to tell a story, 620 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:14,320 Speaker 4: but to also tell a story about the broad geographies 621 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 4: in which we live. And there's a project that I've 622 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 4: been working on with my colleague Derek Alderman at the 623 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,320 Speaker 4: University of Tennessee, something that we've called the Living Black 624 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 4: out Lists. And the Living Black out List is not 625 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 4: a book that you can pick up off a shelf. 626 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 4: But what it is is is we are trying to 627 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 4: collect as many of these examples of how African American 628 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 4: men and women or African American communities are using cartography 629 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:42,400 Speaker 4: and are using. 630 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:47,720 Speaker 3: Geography to tell a story. 631 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,839 Speaker 4: About what it means to live as an African American 632 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 4: in the United States in the twenty first century. There's 633 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 4: another artist who I believe their name is Sonya Barrett, 634 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,160 Speaker 4: and they're an artist in the UK who does a 635 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,919 Speaker 4: lot of stuff with hair actually, and what they had 636 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,360 Speaker 4: was in the United Kingdom, was in England. They had 637 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 4: a project called Braiding the Map, and what they did 638 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,760 Speaker 4: is they created all these representations of the slave trade 639 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 4: through hair and really told a story about the importance 640 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,720 Speaker 4: of the black experience to the making of Great Britain 641 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 4: and those inter relationships and those spatial relationships that exist 642 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 4: which make Britain Britain and which flow through race and 643 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 4: colonialism and enslavement. And so there's all these different ways 644 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 4: of thinking about how we can use cartography to tell 645 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 4: stories of spatial justice. And I think the reality is 646 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 4: we're living in a political moment in the United States, 647 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 4: and we're living in the twenty first century context where 648 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 4: what used to be maybe of interest to officials or 649 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 4: even institutions is now more politically dangerous, and it just 650 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 4: highlights how important it is for communities and individuals to 651 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 4: be able to tell. 652 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 3: Their own story. 653 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,239 Speaker 4: There's another project, which again is cartography like, but it 654 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 4: was a group of activists in New York City who 655 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 4: created these stickers and they would go through New York 656 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 4: City and they would put these stickers on buildings or 657 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 4: sidewalks or signs where enslaved people had lived, or where 658 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 4: families had lived who owned enslaved people. 659 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,719 Speaker 1: So I just looked this up and the project is 660 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 1: called Slavers of New York. And so they have this 661 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 1: sticker campaign or activists, artists, educators, and researchers designed stickers 662 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 1: that resemble New York street signs, and these stickers have 663 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 1: the names of historical figures who owned enslaved people, and 664 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 1: on those stickers they also include the number of people. 665 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 2: That they had enslaved. 666 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 1: So it fits right over a street sign, and they 667 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 1: put it all over New York. I think over a 668 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 1: thousand have been put up, and they get removed and 669 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,280 Speaker 1: defaced and things like that by folks who are trying 670 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:13,719 Speaker 1: to silence these you know, cartographers, but the aim is 671 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 1: to confront persistent invisibility of the history of enslaved people 672 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 1: in New York City. What a way to add some 673 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 1: context in like real time, you know, yeah, bring the 674 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:25,840 Speaker 1: history forward. 675 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 4: I like that, and it was a way of telling 676 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 4: the story of enslavement in New York City. Again, we 677 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 4: tend to think about slavery or something that happened down 678 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 4: South New York City was a really really important and 679 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:42,760 Speaker 4: early moment in the growth of enslavement in the United States. 680 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 4: And trying to tell that story and try to tell 681 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 4: that cartography through this sticker program or putting stickers across 682 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 4: the city and then inviting people to read more about it. 683 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 4: It's another example of what we call the living black 684 00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,800 Speaker 4: out lists, which is telling this story that's super important 685 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:01,880 Speaker 4: in the history of New York City. 686 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,719 Speaker 1: This was a really good conversation because it made me 687 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 1: think about maps in a different way. Absolutely, I think 688 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,240 Speaker 1: that when I think about maps, I'm not thinking about 689 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: the power associated with in the way that it is 690 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 1: used even present day to marginalize certain communities further and 691 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 1: to deny people rights and to honestly reframe how we 692 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 1: view the world. Maps feel like an undersold or undervalued 693 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 1: single source of truth for some folks when it's possible that, well, 694 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 1: we see that it's not always, you know, just one way. 695 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,400 Speaker 1: And I was also thinking about like when he mentioned 696 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,239 Speaker 1: maps in the gas station, and I was like, when 697 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:52,799 Speaker 1: it's the last time I saw a map in the 698 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: gas station? It was the last time I even looked 699 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 1: for one, because I'm constantly looking at my phone, and 700 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 1: if there's information and it's all digital, it feels like 701 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:03,880 Speaker 1: we'll always have access to it. But as it changes, 702 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 1: what version of it do we have access to? Becomes 703 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 1: the question? You know, that's the thing we have to 704 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,480 Speaker 1: think about. It felt like the Internet would be around forever, 705 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,560 Speaker 1: but where's your black Planet page? It's so true because 706 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,360 Speaker 1: even when you think of like how GPS has changed 707 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 1: over time, like now we have like GPS built into 708 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,879 Speaker 1: cars and things like that, and remember when like if 709 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,799 Speaker 1: someone would add like a new highway or new development 710 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 1: was put in a community and it didn't show up 711 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 1: on that map, right, you were messed up. And it's 712 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 1: because your technology in your car was behind. And so 713 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 1: now everybody's using you know, car playing things like that. 714 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 1: But that was a really great point that doctor Enwood 715 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,080 Speaker 1: made where he was saying that you know, that is 716 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:49,600 Speaker 1: what present day cartographers are working to combat, is the 717 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 1: loss of these maps to the technological age, and like, 718 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:58,839 Speaker 1: as technology advances, being able to preserve these maps because if, 719 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:03,839 Speaker 1: like he said, map are a storytelling mechanism, knowing our 720 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 1: history and knowing you know, how things have evolved is 721 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:09,920 Speaker 1: so critical, so that we don't you know, repeat the 722 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 1: same mistakes, and so that we empower the folks that 723 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 1: have been silenced in the past. Preserving those maps is 724 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,439 Speaker 1: activism such a great way to think about that so 725 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 1: so true. You can find us on X and Instagram 726 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 1: at Dope Labs podcast. 727 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,800 Speaker 2: Tt is on X and Instagram at d R Underscore 728 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 2: t Sho. 729 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 1: And you can find Takiya at z said so. 730 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 2: Dope Labs is a production of Leimanada Media. 731 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:46,080 Speaker 1: Our senior supervising producer is Kristin Lapour and our associate 732 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 1: producer is Issara Sives. 733 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 2: Dope Labs is sound design, edited and mixed by James Barber. 734 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 2: Limanada Media is Vice President of Partnerships and Production is 735 00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:01,240 Speaker 2: Jackie Danziger. Executive producer from iHeart podcast is Katrina Norvio 736 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:06,320 Speaker 2: marketing lead is Alison Kanter. Original music composed and produced 737 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 2: by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex sugi Ura, with additional music 738 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:15,400 Speaker 2: by Elijah Harvey. Dope Lab is executive produced by US 739 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:17,800 Speaker 2: T T Show Dia and Kia Wattlei