Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Civic Zacher. I'm your host,
Speaker 1: ramses Jah.
Speaker 2: I'm also your host, but not ramses Jah. He calls
Speaker 2: me q Stella, calls me q dirty. That's the story
Speaker 2: I'll tell another day.
Speaker 1: I like that we are back to broadcast the balance
Speaker 1: and to defend the discourse. And as you know, we've
Speaker 1: had an interesting week, an interesting couple of weeks, but
Speaker 1: this past week has been more of the same. Unfortunately
Speaker 1: and per usual. We're here to make heads and tails
Speaker 1: of it the best we can. Stick around. We have
Speaker 1: a lot in store for you today. We're of course,
Speaker 1: of course going to talk about Jalen Walker, the young
Speaker 1: man who was shot who throw sixty times.
Speaker 2: They attempted to shoot him ninety times.
Speaker 1: Right. That was in Ohio and Akron, So obviously we're
Speaker 1: gonna have to break that down, address it and hopefully
Speaker 1: give you the tools that you'll need to have the
Speaker 1: conversations in your communities that we need to have. You
Speaker 1: can take this information into spaces that we can't and
Speaker 1: hopefully we'll give you what you need to be the
Speaker 1: best ally that you can be. We're also going to
Speaker 1: talk about the latest mass shooting as of this episode,
Speaker 1: the recording of this episode in Chicago. It took place
Speaker 1: on the fourth of July. And really we're going to
Speaker 1: deal with the juxtaposition of how these two people were
Speaker 1: pursued by law enforcement. It's heavy stuff, but you know,
Speaker 1: it's what we're here to do, is to talk about it.
Speaker 1: So stick around. We have that and a lot more
Speaker 1: in store for you. But let's start off on a
Speaker 1: positive note. Q, how do you feel about some ebony excellence?
Speaker 2: You know how I feel about some abny excellence. Indeed,
Speaker 2: absolutely needed and necessary. All right, let's talk about it.
Speaker 2: So a name you know very well, by the way,
Speaker 2: brought to you by Amadel Lockin. Katanji Brown Jackson. She
Speaker 2: has formally joined the Supreme Court. I'll read a bit
Speaker 2: from CNN. Justice Katanji Brown Jackson joined the Supreme Court
Speaker 2: on Thursday, making history as the first female African American justice,
Speaker 2: in beginning what could be a decade's long tenure.
Speaker 1: After her confirmation. In a stirring speech in the South
Speaker 1: Lawn in April, Jackson noted that in her family quote,
Speaker 1: it took just one generation to go from segregation to
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court of the United States. It's an honor
Speaker 1: of a lifetime. Obviously we've talked about her being you know, recommended, confirmed,
Speaker 1: and then obviously we have to talk about her actually
Speaker 1: being sworn in as a justice. This is a win
Speaker 1: for black girls everywhere, and if you're a longtime listener
Speaker 1: of this show, you know we we do our best
Speaker 1: to celebrate black girl magic as often as we can.
Speaker 1: So we salute you, Judge Katanji Brown Jackson for making history.
Speaker 1: And you know, obviously the Supreme Court is in the
Speaker 1: news for a lot of other things, and hopefully she'll
Speaker 1: bring some perspective. You know, we'll see, we'll see so
Speaker 1: much needed perspective.
Speaker 2: I just wish there was more she could do. The
Speaker 2: way that the court is set up grossly imbalanced right
Speaker 2: now intentionally and they're doing a lot to set us back. Yeah, generations.
Speaker 2: It's really discouraging, but.
Speaker 1: Again good to know that moving forward there will be
Speaker 1: someone who can at least affirm our humanity and the
Speaker 1: humanity of black women. If nothing more moving on Jalen Walker. Now,
Speaker 1: you know, we understand that some folks this might be
Speaker 1: the only news source that you get. Right. For many people,
Speaker 1: obviously you've heard the name Jalen Walker, but for those
Speaker 1: who haven't will paint the picture a bit for you.
Speaker 1: Here a young man was fleeing police. He as he
Speaker 1: was fleeing, I believe the police were pursuing him for
Speaker 1: a I think it was a traffic infraction or a
Speaker 1: registration something like that. Nothing serious, right, same police. Obviously,
Speaker 1: as police do, they call more enforcement officers to help
Speaker 1: in the pursuit. They say that they heard a shot
Speaker 1: and noticed a muzzle flash outside the window when the
Speaker 1: when Jalen was driving on the freeway, which altered their
Speaker 1: rules of engagement, is what they say. They have a
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear the reason why. I got a
Speaker 1: whole theory on this, which, by the way, if you
Speaker 1: want to hear my thoughts in depth, be sure to
Speaker 1: check out the Black Information Network Daily podcast. It's on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1: I go into a lot of detail about this because
Speaker 1: this one was a little troubling for me. But long
Speaker 1: and short of it is, he's fleeing the police. He
Speaker 1: ends up, you know, stopping his car, jumping out of
Speaker 1: his car, and fleeing officers. I think early reports said
Speaker 1: that he had a ski mask on. Officers thought that
Speaker 1: he was running toward them, and he ended up getting
Speaker 1: being shot by all the officers who were there pursuing him,
Speaker 1: and they let off ninety round sixty of them actually
Speaker 1: striking him, and then they went handcuffed him, and then
Speaker 1: his handcuffed body. I have a note here arrived at
Speaker 1: the medical examiner's office, according to the autopsy report that
Speaker 1: comes from CNN, So for those that don't know, that
Speaker 1: is the story. There. Now some other details that I
Speaker 1: learned is that officers, you know, report that they discovered
Speaker 1: a handgun in the car. But in addition to the handgun,
Speaker 1: they discovered a wedding band. And according to the family,
Speaker 1: Jalen Walker had just lost his either fiance or wife
Speaker 1: something like that, and was not really in the best
Speaker 1: space as you can probably imagine, right. And what I
Speaker 1: don't want to do is give excuses for anybody. You'll
Speaker 1: never hear me give excuses or the police, but I
Speaker 1: do play Devil's advocate because I've realized it's necessary. I
Speaker 1: don't want to give excuses for Jalen Walker, but I
Speaker 1: do believe that context is important, and once enough context
Speaker 1: is applied, we start to see that, hey, there is
Speaker 1: a system and it is kind of stacked against us.
Speaker 1: I don't need to do anyone any favors. I don't
Speaker 1: need to do ja any favors here because we will
Speaker 1: juxtapose this on the other part of the show, in
Speaker 1: the other half. But you'll see that the way that
Speaker 1: black people are engaged is very different. And you know,
Speaker 1: one such person is able to explain their actions to
Speaker 1: their family and to the public and to a judge
Speaker 1: and have their day in court. One person lost their
Speaker 1: life in a field somewhere in Ohio. So I don't
Speaker 1: want this to sound like I'm doing anything like that,
Speaker 1: but it's important to know about that, that wedding ring thing.
Speaker 1: It's important to know that, you know, he had a
Speaker 1: gun in the car, he left it in the car
Speaker 1: as he fled. But you know, a lot of times
Speaker 1: the story starts with, well why did he run? Now,
Speaker 1: remember his crime was some sort of traffic crime or
Speaker 1: you know, something like that. It wasn't. It wasn't like
Speaker 1: they were pursuing him as a suspect of a murder
Speaker 1: or robbery or something like that, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: I don't get why that would matter.
Speaker 1: Well it doesn't. But I think it's important to note
Speaker 1: that a lot of times people think, well, he was
Speaker 1: running because he had done some thing, or you know,
Speaker 1: he was you know whatever. What I'm trying to establish
Speaker 1: is that it is very possible to just be afraid
Speaker 1: because they're police and they have guns. We've shared stories
Speaker 1: about how that looks. I know that I've shared a story.
Speaker 1: Remember the story when I was younger, when I was
Speaker 1: going to get and I woke up early for school.
Speaker 1: It was some while ago when I was still in school.
Speaker 1: But I went to get an inhaler for my cousin Danny,
Speaker 1: and the police pulled me over after I left the
Speaker 1: ATM and they pulled me out of my car with
Speaker 1: a gun. And I had done nothing wrong. I had
Speaker 1: no idea what was going on, you know that sort
Speaker 1: of thing. It's one thing if I had actually done
Speaker 1: something and I was you know whatever.
Speaker 2: But I still don't get why that would matter.
Speaker 1: What I mean is that minor infractions can result in
Speaker 1: someone fleeing. Because after that happened to me, I became
Speaker 1: very afraid of the police. You know they say your
Speaker 1: life flashes before your eyes. That happened to me when
Speaker 1: they said lift up your hands, lift up your shirt,
Speaker 1: and turn around slowly, and as I rotated by the door,
Speaker 1: of my car at nineteen years old, and I saw
Speaker 1: all those guns pointed at me. It traumatized me, and
Speaker 1: I thought because they said to me, if you make
Speaker 1: any sudden movements, we will kill you. They didn't say
Speaker 1: we will shoot you. If you make any sudden movements,
Speaker 1: we will kill you. I'm nineteen going to school and
Speaker 1: I'm like, yo, what's going on. So after that getting
Speaker 1: engaged by the police, it framed it like, Yo, these
Speaker 1: people are here to kill me, you understand. So even
Speaker 1: if there's a traffic infraction and I've done nothing wrong,
Speaker 1: I'm like, Lord, let this cut pass over me. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I guess the reason why I keep asking why it
Speaker 2: matters is because we have examples where the perpetrator did
Speaker 2: do some awful crime and ran for that reason, right,
Speaker 2: I still got arrested and went to court. So I
Speaker 2: guess that's why I keep asking.
Speaker 1: And I'm glad you're asking a question because that's important.
Speaker 2: Why that matters, it's why we use that as these
Speaker 2: was if it means something, You're absolutely right, And I'm
Speaker 2: glad you said that because that's the same thing that
Speaker 2: I'm trying to establish now.
Speaker 1: Him fleeing the police. You know, people well, why was
Speaker 1: he running? He wasn't guilty of something. Well, we see
Speaker 1: that the traffic crimes is not a thing about guilt
Speaker 1: or innocence. It's an infraction, right. But you know people
Speaker 1: will ask that question, certainly folks on the right, folks
Speaker 1: that if this conversation comes up in your life, you
Speaker 1: know they'll ask, well, he shouldn't have been running, if
Speaker 1: he didn't have anything, if he met he wasn't a
Speaker 1: threat and whatever, he shouldn't have been running. Why do
Speaker 1: they always run? Right? But we as a people have
Speaker 1: been traumatized. I have been, as an individual, been traumatized
Speaker 1: by the police. The police are not the good guys
Speaker 1: in my story. The police are a part of society,
Speaker 1: some good, some bad. But I don't paint with broad
Speaker 1: strokes there because I've seen the police do awful things
Speaker 1: to people. So I saw it since I was little.
Speaker 1: The LAPD do really mean things to people and take
Speaker 1: stuff from take them money, and then send them on
Speaker 1: their way, no rest, no nothing, no paperwork, just bullies.
Speaker 1: Saw it happen, you know what I mean. And it's
Speaker 1: happened other times in my life too. Now, if you
Speaker 1: have had this sort of experience and then you see
Speaker 1: those lights behind you, you might know, Okay, well I shoot,
Speaker 1: I have a gun in the car or whatever. If
Speaker 1: I pull over, that might be the end of it.
Speaker 1: It could be your gun. It could not be your gun.
Speaker 1: But that's a scary predicament to be in. Shoot I
Speaker 1: switch lanes without a signal, but I have my gun here.
Speaker 1: I could be the most legal person in the world, upstanding.
Speaker 1: We've seen it happen many times, the panic, Okay, we'll
Speaker 1: shoot if I pull over. There's one hundred chance that
Speaker 1: these people are going to flip out when they find
Speaker 1: out I have a weapon, and they will be justified
Speaker 1: in doing whatever they are going to do. And what
Speaker 1: happens when you are confronted with that, those circumstances and
Speaker 1: that kind of adrenaline rush that comes over you when
Speaker 1: you realize that your life might be in danger. It's
Speaker 1: a nervous system response. It's called fight or flight. We
Speaker 1: talk about that on the show. Some people choose to
Speaker 1: all right, well, if this is my moment, then I'm
Speaker 1: going to go down fighting, and some people say, I
Speaker 1: don't want this to be my moment. I'm going to
Speaker 1: try to get away from this as much as possible.
Speaker 1: Any creature with consciousness and a nervous system has that capability. Right.
Speaker 1: This is how we've managed to survive as different species,
Speaker 1: and certainly as human beings have managed to survive. So
Speaker 1: why would you run? Well, there's a lot of trauma, there,
Speaker 1: a lot of reason to be afraid. So some people ask, well,
Speaker 1: why does he have a gun? It's not illegal to
Speaker 1: have a gun? Qu you have guns, multiple not illegal? Right?
Speaker 1: Who told you to get the guns? An officer of
Speaker 1: the law? How about that? Right now? You recognize that
Speaker 1: if an officer of the law pulled you over and
Speaker 1: you happen to have a gun with you in the car,
Speaker 1: the optics of the narrative are quite different.
Speaker 2: Right, Which is which is why I was so unequipped
Speaker 2: when the gentleman attempted to kidnap my son fear of
Speaker 2: being pulled over while carrying the gun that the officer
Speaker 2: suggested I purchased real quick.
Speaker 1: I want to establish this again for those that don't know.
Speaker 1: In a recent episode, Q detailed and attempted kidnapping of
Speaker 1: his son in front of a grocery store. We we
Speaker 1: both live in Arizona, so we're near the border, and
Speaker 1: there's been a string of kidnappings I believe. I mean,
Speaker 1: you could explain a little bit better, and I can. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, even after I filed a police report to
Speaker 2: which there was no investigation, I went back to the scene,
Speaker 2: I went back to that grocery store, and as I'm
Speaker 2: explaining to the manager what happened, another family described the
Speaker 2: exact same situation and described the exact same people in
Speaker 2: the exact same car, neither of which anything was done about.
Speaker 1: Now, that would have been in a time when having
Speaker 1: maybe having your gun and being able to protect your
Speaker 1: family might have been the right move for you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, except I'm terrified to carry the weapon that I'm
Speaker 2: allowed to own. How about because I don't want to die?
Speaker 2: There you go, and why don't Who would be the
Speaker 2: biggest threat to you if you had a gun on
Speaker 2: your person. The City of Mesa police departments.
Speaker 1: There is where I live. So this is our reality,
Speaker 1: barring listen, it doesn't even matter what the numbers are.
Speaker 1: I'm not even go to numbers. This is our perceived reality.
Speaker 1: So this is our reality for all intents and purposes. Right, So,
Speaker 1: if Jalen has a gun in his car, legally or illegally,
Speaker 1: a lot of Black people live in parts of the
Speaker 1: country that are very rough, but not because of anything
Speaker 1: that black folks have done. We outline all of the
Speaker 1: systemic issues that have a direct influence on how Black
Speaker 1: people end up more often in impoverished circumstances. Housing discrimination
Speaker 1: is one redlining, you know. Disenfranchised voting is another one.
Speaker 1: You know, the war on drugs. Environmental racism is another one.
Speaker 1: You know, the the unfair allotment of the GI Bill
Speaker 1: that really impacted the wealth in this country. Over policing,
Speaker 1: you know, judiciary, sentencing, and on and on. That list
Speaker 1: goes systemic issues that create things like ghettos that create,
Speaker 1: you know, impoverished circumstances for one group of people specifically right,
Speaker 1: and those environments that that one group of people or
Speaker 1: sometimes two groups of people. Because our Hispanic or otherwise
Speaker 1: Latin brothers and sisters are often neighbors with us in
Speaker 1: these communities melanated more often than not. And I'm not
Speaker 1: I'm not forgetting our indigenous brothers and sisters. I'm not.
Speaker 1: I'm not, you know, but you know, in terms of
Speaker 1: a huge chunk of the population black and brown, that's
Speaker 1: really what we're talking about here. I'm not trying to
Speaker 1: overlook anyone. But those circumstances are very, very rough. You know,
Speaker 1: there's not enough. There's economic inequality, which is often the
Speaker 1: basis more often than not the majority of the time,
Speaker 1: it's economic inequality that is the basis for crimes in
Speaker 1: these communities. It's the poverty itself that is the catalyst
Speaker 1: for these crimes. And when there's crime in the community,
Speaker 1: a lot of people feel like they need to protect
Speaker 1: themselves from that crime. And a lot of people feel like, well,
Speaker 1: if I can have a gun, this country allows me
Speaker 1: the right to have a gun and protect myself. Or
Speaker 1: even if that's not their thinking, if the other people
Speaker 1: have a gun that are in this community and they're
Speaker 1: robbing and taking and whatever because they're trying to figure
Speaker 1: out how they're going to feed their babies or whatever
Speaker 1: it is, you know, I need to have one too
Speaker 1: because I have to protect my interests as well.
Speaker 2: So have an exact explanation that was given to me.
Speaker 2: There you go, there are guns, so you should have one,
Speaker 2: Like no one should have one, but since everyone else
Speaker 2: has one, you probably should.
Speaker 1: Now I personally, I must say, I feel like that's
Speaker 1: the little bit of fear mongering. That the country has
Speaker 1: done to the population or I don't want to say
Speaker 1: the country, but really gun people, and they've really created
Speaker 1: a reality because that is true to you. You're right,
Speaker 1: they've created a reality out of stoking people's fears and
Speaker 1: playing to people's ignorance because most people, at least at
Speaker 1: one point time didn't have guns. I still believe most
Speaker 1: people don't have guns. Right now, I read a statistic
Speaker 1: that a very small amount of the population actually does
Speaker 1: own guns.
Speaker 2: And just are more guns than people.
Speaker 1: Right But where we live in the American Southwest, where
Speaker 1: it's the wild West, very much still.
Speaker 2: Well, we have a government that's trying desperately to turn
Speaker 2: the entire country into the wild West. So we're relaxing
Speaker 2: gun laws, relaxing the protection, relaxing the background checks, relaxing
Speaker 2: the red tape you have to go through to carry.
Speaker 2: As we're relaxing all these things making it easier to
Speaker 2: get a gun. And the idea of gun control is
Speaker 2: being laughed at by the people who we vote for
Speaker 2: to protect us. But it's another conversation for another show.
Speaker 1: Well, you start to see how the circumstances might compel
Speaker 1: a person to own a gun, So why did he
Speaker 1: have a gun? I think that there's this strange phenomenon
Speaker 1: that happens in this country, whereas if you have a gun,
Speaker 1: if you're a man with a gun, right, it's your
Speaker 1: second Amendment, right, God and guns, and George Washington, of
Speaker 1: course I have I have two guns. Right. But if
Speaker 1: you're a black man and you have a gun, then
Speaker 1: all of a sudden you're criminals somehow, right, black men
Speaker 1: and guns is criminal. But you know, white men and
Speaker 1: gun is that's America textbook. So we need to rethink
Speaker 1: that as well. But you know, he has a gun.
Speaker 1: And in terms of the shot fired on the freeway,
Speaker 1: if in fact that's what that was, you know, but
Speaker 1: let's for the sake of argument say that it was.
Speaker 1: I think when you're driving on the freeway, the speed
Speaker 1: can kill you. I know a thing or two about speed. Now, shoot,
Speaker 1: you got a couple of fast cars, so I know
Speaker 1: you know about speed too. The speed will kill you.
Speaker 1: So if you're looking around, you know, that's really where
Speaker 1: you're not running away from someone. If you are set
Speaker 1: on dying, you know what I mean, if you're suicidal, right,
Speaker 1: So if you're speeding, it's very difficult to get a
Speaker 1: shot off, especially a shot in the opposite direction from
Speaker 1: where you're going. You know. But let's say, for instance,
Speaker 1: he was suicidal in a dark place, you know, whatever
Speaker 1: he has every there's everything here that points to the
Speaker 1: fact that that's really a possibility. You know, he left
Speaker 1: the ring in the car, that's a statement in and
Speaker 1: of itself. The band, the wedding band, he left it
Speaker 1: in the car with the gun and the clip outside
Speaker 1: of the gun. Right, So if that shot goes off, okay,
Speaker 1: is that shot pointed at anyone? I'm not saying the
Speaker 1: police shouldn't be afraid for their life, get it. You know,
Speaker 1: it's a tough job, a tough situation to being Hang
Speaker 1: on me, let me say it. Don't forget it though
Speaker 1: I want to hear it. But was that shot for himself?
Speaker 1: Was that shot an accident? Was he trying to take
Speaker 1: the you know what I mean? Just as simple? You know,
Speaker 1: who knows? Right? I get that the police, if they
Speaker 1: feel like they heard a shot, they have to engage
Speaker 1: a different way. But I think that the way that
Speaker 1: we're engaging, it's almost the same thing I say every show.
Speaker 1: The way that we're engaging doesn't account for the fact
Speaker 1: that human beings deserve the right to live. Right, The
Speaker 1: ready assumption is that they're trying to kill me. My
Speaker 1: job is to catch them, and if they're trying to
Speaker 1: kill me, I'm gonna kill them. And that we've seen
Speaker 1: obviously more often than not, that that's not the case
Speaker 1: at all. Now go ahead, please, It's.
Speaker 2: Just not how they feel and we know better. And
Speaker 2: this effort made by us to extend some benefit of
Speaker 2: the doubt that's not deserved. Right, the idea that the
Speaker 2: gun shot made them afraid so they pursued different It didn't,
Speaker 2: and they.
Speaker 1: Didn't they were pursuing that way.
Speaker 2: Anyway, These gentlemen with assault rifles who are shooting people
Speaker 2: when the police arrive are not killed. They're not pursued
Speaker 2: in this way. They're not shot at ninety times. That's
Speaker 2: a great point, Like we we go out of our
Speaker 2: way to be fair, for what who are we creating
Speaker 2: this facade of benefit of the doubt? For we have
Speaker 2: so much evidence to the contrary. It's exhausting for us
Speaker 2: to keep trying to be the ones to be fair
Speaker 2: in the way that we talk about things that are
Speaker 2: so blatantly not fair. Right, The officers in Texas arrived
Speaker 2: while this young man was killing people. They heard it,
Speaker 2: they witnessed it, they were there. He was still arrested
Speaker 2: without harm, scratch or bruise. While was this young man
Speaker 2: who had a gun, whether he fired it or not,
Speaker 2: shot at ninety times while running away. The answer is
Speaker 2: incredibly obvious. But when we say it, it's received. When
Speaker 2: we say it's received different than as just blatant factual truth,
Speaker 2: Well said,