WEBVTT - Shameful History: Project 100,000

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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<v Speaker 2>Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is Stuff you

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<v Speaker 2>Should Know with a happy, fun, upbeat edition of Stuff

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<v Speaker 2>you Should Know.

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<v Speaker 1>Another entry in the shameful American history? Yea bucket? Do

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<v Speaker 1>you want to thank a listener for this idea? By

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<v Speaker 1>the way, this came from David Bryant? No relation, are

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<v Speaker 1>you sure? Yeah? I don't have any. The only David

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<v Speaker 1>in my family's my cousin, and he is a Mills, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>but specifically David Bryant's mom I believe gave David this

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<v Speaker 1>idea or asked David if those boys ever did a

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<v Speaker 1>show on the one Project one hundred thousand. And we

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<v Speaker 1>also should shout out a writer, Hamilton Gregory, who was

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<v Speaker 1>a Vietnam vett and journalist and who wrote a book

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<v Speaker 1>McNamara's follow colon the use of low IQ troops in

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<v Speaker 1>the Vietnam War, which I guess sort of gives away

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<v Speaker 1>what we're talking about.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because the name of the project Project one hundred

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<v Speaker 2>thousand certainly doesn't.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean another name of it was McNamara's Morons

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<v Speaker 1>from Defense Secretary Robert McNamara. But that name is awful,

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<v Speaker 1>so I'd love to not use it again.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's ridiculously derogatory. Even when this was going on

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<v Speaker 2>in the mid sixties to the very early seventies, it

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<v Speaker 2>was still quite derogatory. It hadn't been like a medical

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<v Speaker 2>term since like the nineteen teen so it was just

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<v Speaker 2>mean all around. And that's pretty appropriate because this whole

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<v Speaker 2>idea of this project, which was a wartime effort to

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<v Speaker 2>essentially lower the standards for military recruitment so that people

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<v Speaker 2>with low enough IQs that they were either borderlined or

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<v Speaker 2>mildly cognitively challenged would be acceptable into military se And

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<v Speaker 2>it depends on who you ask what the purpose was.

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<v Speaker 2>We'll go into both of them. Yeah, but for the

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<v Speaker 2>most part, it seems like it probably was as bad

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<v Speaker 2>as it seems on its face, that it wasn't an actual,

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<v Speaker 2>like good idea ever among anybody.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I mean, that's a great setup for a change

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<v Speaker 1>for us. You know, usually people are like, what is

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<v Speaker 1>this even you're talking about?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and how'd you guys confuse me already? We're only

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<v Speaker 2>in a minute two Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So I guess we'll just dive right in. I mentioned

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<v Speaker 1>Robert McNamara, who was during the Vietnam War was the

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<v Speaker 1>Secretary of Defense, and this was an idea that wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>something that he just thought of then we'll get into it.

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<v Speaker 1>But he had thought of this idea previously. But it

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<v Speaker 1>was also something the US military had faced previously when

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<v Speaker 1>it came wartime and they found out that like, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>we had a real problem with not having enough soldiers.

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<v Speaker 1>We really overestimated how many like you know, fit literate

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<v Speaker 1>men were qualified to serve because this is what's what

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<v Speaker 1>a time when it was I mean, was it exclusively men?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? World War two for sure, at least for combat roles.

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<v Speaker 2>I think there were other roles for women. But as

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<v Speaker 2>far as combats concerned, yes, definitely.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And so they h and that was also the

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<v Speaker 1>first war, which is one reason they had this shortage

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<v Speaker 1>that the first war that they had these really kind

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<v Speaker 1>of big leaps forward in technology with you know, weaponry

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<v Speaker 1>and communications to where they had specialists that you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the brightest of the bright that did that stuff right,

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<v Speaker 1>and everyone else is in combat. So once they had

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<v Speaker 1>the specialists assign they were like, hey, we don't have

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<v Speaker 1>enough like front line dudes.

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<v Speaker 2>No, So they had a choice. They could either say,

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<v Speaker 2>some of you specialists, we may have assigned you to

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<v Speaker 2>radar duty too hastily. We need you to be on

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<v Speaker 2>the front lines because we don't have enough combat soldiers.

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<v Speaker 2>Or they could lower their standards to allow more people

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<v Speaker 2>into the army or infantry so they would automatically be

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<v Speaker 2>combat soldiers.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and one guy said, but my name is radar, right,

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<v Speaker 1>and he said, well, just get over to the Mash unit. Then.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, man, that show was not funny to me.

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<v Speaker 1>Is this the first time I'm hearing this.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>Maybe you're not a Mash fan. No, I thought you

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<v Speaker 1>love Mash.

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<v Speaker 2>No. I remember like hanging out with my dad. Well

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<v Speaker 2>he watched it and he would like laugh and clap

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<v Speaker 2>and everything, and I'd be like, this is not funny.

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<v Speaker 2>And then I grew up and I'm still like, this

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<v Speaker 2>is not funny.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow, that's funny, because the other day Rip Loretta Swit

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<v Speaker 1>who just passed away Hotcholahan. I was remarking on Paula

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<v Speaker 1>Tompkin's Instagram page because he did a little tribute to

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<v Speaker 1>her that it's like, it's so funny for me to

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<v Speaker 1>think back of being like a twelve year old kid

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<v Speaker 1>watching a movie about alcoholic surgeons in the Korean War

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<v Speaker 1>on Thursdays five times a day, every other day of

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<v Speaker 1>the week, four times a day. I ate it up.

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<v Speaker 1>I thought it was the best thing ever.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I liked the movie.

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<v Speaker 1>Interesting.

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<v Speaker 2>Why do you dislike the movie but like this show? No.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean the movie is just the great Robert Altman,

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<v Speaker 1>so I certainly love it, but I just think it's interesting. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I thought you were a Mash guy.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, once they got rid of Trapper John, I

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<v Speaker 2>was like, I'm done with even giving this a chance.

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<v Speaker 1>But this is what I like about our friendship is

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<v Speaker 1>we're still learning about each other after all these years.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and we can still get along despite our views

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<v Speaker 2>on Mash.

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<v Speaker 1>This is gonna take me a minute, but it'll be fine.

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<v Speaker 2>So we left off basically before this little tangent that

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<v Speaker 2>the army had a decision either lower their standards to

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<v Speaker 2>allow more combat troops in or get some of those

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<v Speaker 2>specialists stuff to the front lines. And they're like, we'll

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<v Speaker 2>just go ahead and lower our standards.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And they did that. They lowered the intelligence standards

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<v Speaker 1>and they were pretty surprised. They're like, wow, a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of you guys maybe are illiterate and can't read, maybe

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<v Speaker 1>you can't understand basic orders. Even we knew obviously this

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<v Speaker 1>is the nineteen forties, so much less about mental challenges

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<v Speaker 1>and different intelligences and learning disabilities and like you were

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<v Speaker 1>either this or you were that back then, And so

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<v Speaker 1>all of a sudden they said, oh, well, we had

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of that, and we thought it would be

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<v Speaker 1>a little more like guys like.

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<v Speaker 2>This, right, So I think they managed to get three

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<v Speaker 2>hundred and fifty thousand men at least they kind of

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<v Speaker 2>opened the floodgates during World War Two. This is just

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<v Speaker 2>between forty two and forty five. But the caveat to

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<v Speaker 2>this is that the military provided remedial education classes. Like

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<v Speaker 2>you would sign up for three years, they would teach you.

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<v Speaker 2>They'd spend some of this time teaching you what you

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<v Speaker 2>didn't learn in high school because maybe you dropped out,

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<v Speaker 2>or maybe your high school sucked, maybe you had to

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<v Speaker 2>work in the fields half of the day so you

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<v Speaker 2>didn't get a full education. The army educated them to

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<v Speaker 2>bring them up to the level that their former standards met, right.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, or try to at least.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they did their best. And then after War two

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<v Speaker 2>ended and Hitler was dead, dead, dead, the army was like, well,

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<v Speaker 2>the military in general said, we're gonna re raise our

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<v Speaker 2>standards back to where they were before.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly, and then they needed to make the movie

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<v Speaker 1>mash and then later the TV show. So they started

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<v Speaker 1>the Korean War.

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<v Speaker 2>Well wait, the Rosenberg started the Korean War, don't forget

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<v Speaker 2>that's right.

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<v Speaker 1>No, the Korean War came along and they had the

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<v Speaker 1>same problem, of course, so they lowered the standards again,

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<v Speaker 1>of course, and there was another scramble to kind of

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<v Speaker 1>get ready, and so they were like, you know, guys,

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<v Speaker 1>before we go into our next war, which we should

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<v Speaker 1>do pretty soon, we need to like have a real

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<v Speaker 1>plan in place for this and and you know, get

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<v Speaker 1>the manpower we need the right way. And so part

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<v Speaker 1>of that was, you know, led into what led to

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<v Speaker 1>Project one hundred thousand. Yeah that wasn't all, though.

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<v Speaker 2>No, that wasn't all. There was this this I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know how much faith to put in this. Let's just

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<v Speaker 2>present it as if it's real and we'll let the

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<v Speaker 2>listeners decide. Okay, But there's a senator named Daniel Patrick moynihan.

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<v Speaker 2>He was a longtime sitting Senator for New York. Prior

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<v Speaker 2>to that, in the era that we're talking about, he

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<v Speaker 2>was assistant Secretary of Labor under both Kennedy and LBJ.

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<v Speaker 2>He was actually one of the architects of the War

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<v Speaker 2>on Poverty. And I don't know if it was his

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<v Speaker 2>idea or he just really bought into this idea, but

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<v Speaker 2>it was that there's a bunch of people who aren't

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<v Speaker 2>fit for military service, either because they're overweight or underweight,

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<v Speaker 2>or because they're not intelligent enough to pass the basic

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<v Speaker 2>intelligence standards. I think he found like thirty percent of

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<v Speaker 2>American men weren't fit for military service because of those standards.

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<v Speaker 2>So he said, Okay, rather than go back to the

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<v Speaker 2>beginning and try to fix the educational system, let's just

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<v Speaker 2>get these people into the army and let the army

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<v Speaker 2>kind of like polish them up so that once they're

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<v Speaker 2>done with their hitch, they can become productive members of society.

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<v Speaker 2>And even better, we're taking people out of like abject poverty,

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<v Speaker 2>giving them a chance to have like a life for

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<v Speaker 2>themselves and provide a stable a stable home for their children,

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<v Speaker 2>who can then go on to become middle class and

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<v Speaker 2>so on and so forth in the cycle of poverty

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<v Speaker 2>will be broken. That's what Daniel Patrick Boynihan was saying.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and he had a lot of people on his side.

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<v Speaker 1>It wasn't some hugely controversial thing to propose. It was

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<v Speaker 1>at a time when it was like, you know, you

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<v Speaker 1>got a kid who's a problem, send them into the army,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know they'll they'll shape you up into a

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<v Speaker 1>real man and a productive member of society. It was

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<v Speaker 1>kind of the way of thinking at the time, so

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<v Speaker 1>much so that John F. Kennedy and Lyndon Mains Johnson,

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<v Speaker 1>they were big time believers in this. They were both

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<v Speaker 1>like fully fully on board. So we just want to

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<v Speaker 1>make that clear. It wasn't just one or two people

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<v Speaker 1>making these decisions, and there were presidents going, I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know about that. That doesn't sound like the idea, right. We

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<v Speaker 1>will kind of hit some early critics because there were some,

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<v Speaker 1>but people were kind of steaming ahead, you know, full

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<v Speaker 1>steam ahead with this steaming ahead, full steam.

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<v Speaker 2>Ahead, that's really steamy, that's full steam. Yeah, Kennedy said

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<v Speaker 2>in nineteen sixty three. Are today's military rejects include Tomorrow's

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<v Speaker 2>or hardcore unemployed.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, it's funny I have written down on my thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you really?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was the worst Kennedy anyone's ever done. But

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<v Speaker 2>that was my best.

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<v Speaker 1>I know. We're all frightened and horny. And the LBJ

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<v Speaker 1>for his part, can I do? LBJ?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>He was a country guy.

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<v Speaker 2>Right Texan?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, we'll teach him to get up at daylight

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<v Speaker 1>and work till dark and shave and bathe, and when

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<v Speaker 1>when we turn them out, we'll have them prepared at

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<v Speaker 1>least to drive a truck or a bakery wagon or

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<v Speaker 1>stand at a gate.

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<v Speaker 2>That was more a gentleman dressed in a seersucker suit

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<v Speaker 2>at a Kentucky derby. I think all.

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<v Speaker 1>Right either, WELLBJ did that?

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<v Speaker 2>Hey it was better than Mike Kennedy. How about that?

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<v Speaker 1>It was fine?

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<v Speaker 2>So you mentioned that we were going to kind of

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<v Speaker 2>run into some of the critics early to this idea,

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<v Speaker 2>and the first vocal critics were the military leaders themselves.

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<v Speaker 2>They were like, this is no, we don't want to

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<v Speaker 2>do this. Were not the armies, not to rehabilitate and

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<v Speaker 2>educate people who got left behind in school, do something

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<v Speaker 2>else with them. There were other people who were like Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>there's this thing called job corps. If you heard a

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<v Speaker 2>job corps, that's what that's for. Don't send them to

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<v Speaker 2>the military. So it wasn't like a home run once

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<v Speaker 2>it left the Oval Office and started to spread outward

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<v Speaker 2>on Capitol Hill.

0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:43.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure. But that's where it did go because

0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:49.280
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen sixty six is when Robert McNamara formally announced

0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:52.920
<v Speaker 1>Project one hundred thousand. But this was, like I mentioned,

0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:55.640
<v Speaker 1>not only the US military tried to this before, but

0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:59.240
<v Speaker 1>McNamara himself had tried this before two years earlier. In

0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:03.520
<v Speaker 1>sixty four, he proposed something called the Special Training Enlistment Program,

0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:08.000
<v Speaker 1>or the STEP program, And this was not full project

0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:11.280
<v Speaker 1>from one hundred thousand. It was a little more like, hey,

0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:16.440
<v Speaker 1>we got a like forty thousand guys that didn't meet

0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:19.800
<v Speaker 1>the standards, but they're super close. Maybe they're just below

0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:22.600
<v Speaker 1>the IQ test level, or maybe they need to put

0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:25.160
<v Speaker 1>on a few pounds or shave a few pounds, And

0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:28.440
<v Speaker 1>the STEP program was intended to kind of correct those

0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:33.000
<v Speaker 1>guys up quickly in getting on board, but it would

0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:34.600
<v Speaker 1>cost a little bit of money. They would enlist for

0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:37.600
<v Speaker 1>three years receive this special training, and that special training

0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:41.280
<v Speaker 1>was going to cost about sixteen million bucks. So Congress said, no,

0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:43.000
<v Speaker 1>we're not going to pay for that. No.

0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:45.280
<v Speaker 2>And one other thing you kind of mentioned it is

0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:47.760
<v Speaker 2>that they were going to get remedial instruction like the

0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:50.320
<v Speaker 2>soldiers in World War two got right. That was part

0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:51.240
<v Speaker 2>of the program.

0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:52.960
<v Speaker 1>That was what the sixteen million was for.

0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:56.079
<v Speaker 2>Okay. So Congress said no, like you said, and mac

0:12:56.120 --> 0:12:58.520
<v Speaker 2>namara is like, okay, whatever, I'm just gonna move on

0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:01.960
<v Speaker 2>any of other things to do right now, like agitate

0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:06.880
<v Speaker 2>for escalation in Vietnam. And in nineteen sixty six, apparently

0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:09.640
<v Speaker 2>he was chatting with some Marines and they made mention

0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:13.800
<v Speaker 2>that they had actually set up their own little special

0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:17.200
<v Speaker 2>training program so that the recruits who weren't cutting it

0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:20.120
<v Speaker 2>hacking it could be kind of like brought up to

0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:24.800
<v Speaker 2>minimum standards themselves. And he had a a Eureka light

0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:27.360
<v Speaker 2>bulb moment basically saying like, I'm going to steal the

0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:30.880
<v Speaker 2>idea and make it military wide, and that way Congress

0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:33.240
<v Speaker 2>doesn't have to have their greedy little fingers in it,

0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:35.599
<v Speaker 2>because I can just use their regular training budget for

0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:36.360
<v Speaker 2>this kind of thing.

0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:40.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and they can. You know, those Marines had their

0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:43.680
<v Speaker 1>private piles that they got up to speed and turned

0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:46.199
<v Speaker 1>them into killing machines, just like in the movie.

0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:50.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean Private Pile is based on this Project

0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:52.319
<v Speaker 2>one hundred thousand, and we're about to talk about like

0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:53.480
<v Speaker 2>one hundred percent.

0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:56.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And I feel like Forrest Gump has got to

0:13:56.400 --> 0:14:00.200
<v Speaker 1>be inspired by this, even though that was now were

0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:02.440
<v Speaker 1>a part of the movie that at least made it

0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:04.600
<v Speaker 1>into the movie. I don't know about original script, if

0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:06.559
<v Speaker 1>he had any kind of special training or anything.

0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:08.679
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, or the book by Winston Groom. It's

0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:11.640
<v Speaker 2>possible that he ran across that in the research, but

0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:13.440
<v Speaker 2>not just Force but Bubba as well.

0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:14.600
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, good point.

0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:17.720
<v Speaker 2>So I say we took a break and come back

0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:21.520
<v Speaker 2>and talk about how Project one hundred thousand actually kind

0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:22.840
<v Speaker 2>of made it.

0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:51.960
<v Speaker 1>Let's do it all right. So where we left off,

0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:55.000
<v Speaker 1>as McNamara found a work around from the official Step

0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:58.760
<v Speaker 1>program to basically an unofficial Step program, And in nineteen

0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:01.200
<v Speaker 1>sixty six, they found that they really needed this because

0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:05.920
<v Speaker 1>they had a pretty dire manpower situation. Because one reason

0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:10.760
<v Speaker 1>is because of the incredible amount of deferments. I saw

0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:15.560
<v Speaker 1>some stats that from draft eligible men in nineteen sixty six,

0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:18.800
<v Speaker 1>sixty percent of them took some sort of action to

0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:21.040
<v Speaker 1>gain a deferment. A lot of them rushed off to

0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:24.520
<v Speaker 1>get married because initially there was a marriage deferment. A

0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:26.560
<v Speaker 1>lot of them went to college that maybe weren't too

0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:29.280
<v Speaker 1>keen on it because there was a college deferment. There

0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:33.760
<v Speaker 1>were medical deferments. They were certainly wealthy kids who had

0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:36.120
<v Speaker 1>their parents pay their way out of the war with

0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:40.560
<v Speaker 1>things like medical deferments. There were conscientious objector deferments, like

0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:45.160
<v Speaker 1>one hundred and seventy thousand of those people having kids

0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:47.080
<v Speaker 1>like they could. They sort of started moving the goalpost

0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:50.080
<v Speaker 1>a little bit with the marriage and kids thing, because

0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:52.400
<v Speaker 1>at first it was like if you're married or not going,

0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:54.240
<v Speaker 1>But then they're like, actually we need to marry you guys,

0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:56.400
<v Speaker 1>maybe if you just don't have kids. So guys started

0:15:56.440 --> 0:16:00.360
<v Speaker 1>having kids so long way of saying they needed they

0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:03.680
<v Speaker 1>needed infantrymen on the front line. Another way to avoid

0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:05.800
<v Speaker 1>it was obviously joining something like the National Guard or

0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:06.360
<v Speaker 1>the Coast Guard.

0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:10.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because then you could be like, the Coast Guard

0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:12.720
<v Speaker 2>is almost certainly not going to Vietnam. I'll join the

0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:14.720
<v Speaker 2>Coast Guard so I can serve and help out, but

0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:16.840
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to be shipped off to Vietnam. Some

0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:19.920
<v Speaker 2>people also just fled the country, went to Canada. Sweden

0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:22.680
<v Speaker 2>was another place where what are called draft dodgers ran

0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:26.880
<v Speaker 2>off to. So yeah, there were a lot of people,

0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:31.720
<v Speaker 2>particularly middle class and hire who were just basically not

0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:35.840
<v Speaker 2>having to go fight in Vietnam. Right. And the other

0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:38.960
<v Speaker 2>reason why they needed people, or the basic reason why

0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:40.800
<v Speaker 2>they needed a bunch of people all of a sudden,

0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:43.400
<v Speaker 2>or fighting men, I should say, on the front lines,

0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:47.560
<v Speaker 2>is because in nineteen sixty six, the US sent combat

0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:51.560
<v Speaker 2>troops to the ground in Vietnam, in South Vietnam. To

0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:55.480
<v Speaker 2>that point, the US had been nothing but advisors and trainers.

0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:58.360
<v Speaker 2>And then there was the Gulf of Tonkin incident where

0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:01.160
<v Speaker 2>a Navy ship was fired upon. That kind of brought

0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:04.200
<v Speaker 2>the US into the war and we started like doing

0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.360
<v Speaker 2>firebombing raids. And then finally they were like, we need

0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:11.160
<v Speaker 2>infantry men. And that's when they really needed a bunch

0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:13.240
<v Speaker 2>of people to go fight in Vietnam. And that's when

0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:16.040
<v Speaker 2>Project one hundred thousand was like, yeah, let's let's do

0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:17.040
<v Speaker 2>this because we need to.

0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:19.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And i' mean I didn't even look it up,

0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:22.040
<v Speaker 1>but I imagine were they trying to get one hundred

0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:26.200
<v Speaker 1>thousand soldiers. Was that that number per year? Oh, per year? Okay,

0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:28.280
<v Speaker 1>because they ended up getting far more than that they did.

0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:32.760
<v Speaker 1>They were officially active with this project from October first,

0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:36.080
<v Speaker 1>sixty six through the end of the year seventy one,

0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:39.639
<v Speaker 1>so about five years. And there were early critics of

0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:43.160
<v Speaker 1>this you know, official program as well, and a lot

0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:45.280
<v Speaker 1>of them, you know, kind of makes sense, but a

0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:47.920
<v Speaker 1>lot of them early on were civil rights leaders. There

0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:50.119
<v Speaker 1>was a congressman named Adam Clayton Powell who said, this

0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:53.359
<v Speaker 1>is genocide for poor black Americans. It's nothing more than

0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:56.840
<v Speaker 1>killing off human beings that are not members of the elite.

0:17:57.200 --> 0:17:59.080
<v Speaker 1>But nevertheless they pushed on.

0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:02.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I mean, the very fact that these these men

0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:08.160
<v Speaker 2>came from high levels of poverty and had learning disabilities

0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:09.720
<v Speaker 2>in a lot of cases meant that they were not

0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:13.239
<v Speaker 2>going to get any kind of college deferment. They were

0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:15.119
<v Speaker 2>almost certainly not in college, and even if they were,

0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:17.200
<v Speaker 2>they weren't doing a good enough job to get a deferment.

0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:21.000
<v Speaker 2>And then secondly, national guards, almost to a state were

0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:23.639
<v Speaker 2>still segregated, so if you were black, you couldn't go

0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:27.040
<v Speaker 2>join the National Guard and not be shipped off to Vietnam.

0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:31.160
<v Speaker 2>So these were really vulnerable population of people that they

0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:33.280
<v Speaker 2>tapped into with Project one hundred thousand.

0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:36.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and they called these guys the New Standards recruits

0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:41.880
<v Speaker 1>Capital and Capital S and most of those New Standards

0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:44.960
<v Speaker 1>guys were sent to Vietnam. Out of those guys, about

0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:48.480
<v Speaker 1>half of them served in combat roles. And this is

0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:49.399
<v Speaker 1>what that looked like.

0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:51.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I think there were a total of three hundred

0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:54.320
<v Speaker 2>and fifty four thousand men who were admitted in that time.

0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:58.680
<v Speaker 2>Ninety one percent hadn't met the previous minimum i CUE requirements,

0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:03.400
<v Speaker 2>and the score on the Armed Forces Qualification Test, which

0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:09.119
<v Speaker 2>measured intelligence among other things, was thirteen point six, which

0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:12.280
<v Speaker 2>meant that the New Standards men had an IQ average

0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:16.199
<v Speaker 2>around seventy five, whereas for all recruits the average was

0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:19.800
<v Speaker 2>IQ of about one hundred. And that's the average IQ.

0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:23.320
<v Speaker 2>I saw that seventy is the cutoff the beginning of

0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:27.359
<v Speaker 2>mild cognitive disabilities. So if seventy five is the average,

0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:31.160
<v Speaker 2>that means there were people with real cognitive disabilities who

0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:34.080
<v Speaker 2>were in this three hundred and fifty four thousand men

0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:36.320
<v Speaker 2>who were part of Project one hundred thousand.

0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:38.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Forty eight percent of those guys were from the

0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:42.160
<v Speaker 1>South compared to twenty eight percent of the total recruits,

0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:46.359
<v Speaker 1>and thirty eight percent were non white, when minorities at

0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:48.520
<v Speaker 1>the time made up just about ten percent overall.

0:19:48.600 --> 0:19:53.879
<v Speaker 2>Right, so you can imagine that these men who didn't

0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:59.200
<v Speaker 2>meet the minimum requirements that had previously been met, some

0:19:59.280 --> 0:20:03.199
<v Speaker 2>of them couldn't even meet these new lowered requirements, and

0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:06.640
<v Speaker 2>so recruiters stepped in and did some really shady stuff

0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:10.280
<v Speaker 2>to get people into this project one hundred thousand.

0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:14.959
<v Speaker 1>Shoot, yeah, recruiters. I mean they can say whatever they

0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:17.280
<v Speaker 1>want because they're not you know, you can't go back

0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:19.439
<v Speaker 1>and say, oh, well, my recruiter said I wasn't supposed

0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:22.120
<v Speaker 1>to go to the front line. That just doesn't fly.

0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:23.800
<v Speaker 1>So they could say whatever they want. They could say,

0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:25.240
<v Speaker 1>you're not going to go to the front line. Maybe

0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:28.679
<v Speaker 1>you won't even go to Vietnam. You may be you know,

0:20:28.760 --> 0:20:31.560
<v Speaker 1>you're going to get really great job training and set

0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:33.679
<v Speaker 1>you up great for later in life after you get

0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:36.560
<v Speaker 1>out of the army. Their job is to recruit you,

0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:38.560
<v Speaker 1>not to be held to anything that they say.

0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:41.480
<v Speaker 2>So wrong, man, especially when you're dealing with people with

0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:46.200
<v Speaker 2>cognitive disabilities, you know, for sure, especially people who are illiterate,

0:20:46.200 --> 0:20:48.760
<v Speaker 2>and some of them were illiterate, so the recruiters would

0:20:48.800 --> 0:20:53.000
<v Speaker 2>bring in ringers, people they paid to take the tests

0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:57.199
<v Speaker 2>for the qualification tests for these men who were the

0:20:57.320 --> 0:21:02.200
<v Speaker 2>new standards men, and they I mean that's just fraud,

0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:03.320
<v Speaker 2>you know.

0:21:04.480 --> 0:21:08.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure, they were you know, once they got

0:21:08.760 --> 0:21:13.119
<v Speaker 1>to basic training, they were bullied. They were obviously the

0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:16.240
<v Speaker 1>object of ire from their you know, drill sergeants and

0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:18.439
<v Speaker 1>stuff like that, but they were also bullied you know,

0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:23.199
<v Speaker 1>physically and you know, emotionally within their you know, platoons,

0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:25.640
<v Speaker 1>and they didn't have any understanding a lot of times

0:21:25.680 --> 0:21:27.600
<v Speaker 1>of even what was going on when this is happening.

0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:31.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that writer Hamilton Gregory recounted the story of one

0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:35.000
<v Speaker 2>recruit who couldn't tell you what state he was from,

0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:38.000
<v Speaker 2>didn't know his left from his right, wasn't aware that

0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:43.240
<v Speaker 2>the US was at war. I mean, like really profoundly

0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:47.600
<v Speaker 2>cognitively challenged men in some cases who had no business

0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:51.040
<v Speaker 2>being in the military. Not just because they were potentially

0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:54.120
<v Speaker 2>in danger or most certainly in danger in a lot

0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:56.480
<v Speaker 2>of cases, but they also posed a danger to other

0:21:56.560 --> 0:21:59.520
<v Speaker 2>people in their platoon as well because they didn't know

0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:00.320
<v Speaker 2>what they were doing.

0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:04.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure, they did have the special training companies

0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:06.840
<v Speaker 1>set up like you know McNamara had envisioned, you know

0:22:06.840 --> 0:22:09.760
<v Speaker 1>from the tip from those Marines, but a lot of times,

0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:12.200
<v Speaker 1>you know, that didn't work. And even when they failed

0:22:12.200 --> 0:22:14.280
<v Speaker 1>to get through basic training, they would just recycle them

0:22:14.320 --> 0:22:17.400
<v Speaker 1>back through until they pass or just say you passed.

0:22:17.720 --> 0:22:22.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Those recruiters also they used something called administrative acceptance,

0:22:22.560 --> 0:22:24.840
<v Speaker 2>that's what it was, where they were given the power

0:22:24.880 --> 0:22:27.360
<v Speaker 2>to say, I think you're flunking this test on purpose,

0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:31.480
<v Speaker 2>so you're actually going to be admitted anyway. They could

0:22:31.560 --> 0:22:36.399
<v Speaker 2>use that to assign or to get these cognitively challenged

0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:39.240
<v Speaker 2>men into the army, basically saying like I think you're

0:22:39.240 --> 0:22:44.320
<v Speaker 2>smarter than your test reflects, right, So there was just

0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:46.720
<v Speaker 2>no way that they weren't going to make it into

0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:50.040
<v Speaker 2>the army and then through basic training, and I mean

0:22:50.160 --> 0:22:53.080
<v Speaker 2>once they got through basic training, I think you said

0:22:53.400 --> 0:22:56.000
<v Speaker 2>half or more of them were shipped off to Vietnam,

0:22:56.080 --> 0:22:58.439
<v Speaker 2>and I think the majority of them ended up on

0:22:58.480 --> 0:23:02.800
<v Speaker 2>the front lines. And the statistics about what happened to

0:23:02.880 --> 0:23:06.639
<v Speaker 2>these men in Vietnam are just shocking, especially when you

0:23:06.680 --> 0:23:10.320
<v Speaker 2>compare them to the statistics for just the military of

0:23:10.359 --> 0:23:11.359
<v Speaker 2>the Army as a whole.

0:23:12.040 --> 0:23:15.359
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, four hundred and seventy eight of them were killed

0:23:15.400 --> 0:23:18.919
<v Speaker 1>in Vietnam, which was a fatality rate three times higher

0:23:18.960 --> 0:23:22.560
<v Speaker 1>than your average soldier. Thirteen hundred those were killed by

0:23:22.560 --> 0:23:25.520
<v Speaker 1>mines in booby traps, because a lot of times they

0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:27.639
<v Speaker 1>were like, just put one of those guys up front

0:23:28.080 --> 0:23:29.960
<v Speaker 1>and if they step on the land mine, then it's

0:23:30.040 --> 0:23:33.800
<v Speaker 1>no big loss for us. Twenty thousand of them were injured,

0:23:34.320 --> 0:23:37.720
<v Speaker 1>including five hundred amputees, which is again at a higher

0:23:37.800 --> 0:23:39.320
<v Speaker 1>rate than other gis.

0:23:39.600 --> 0:23:43.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think I saw like fifty something thousand people

0:23:43.160 --> 0:23:47.040
<v Speaker 2>were killed. Americans were killed in Vietnam, so like the

0:23:47.080 --> 0:23:51.400
<v Speaker 2>new standards men made up like ten percent of that, which, yeah,

0:23:51.440 --> 0:23:54.159
<v Speaker 2>I mean, that's just crazy. There are also like a

0:23:54.200 --> 0:23:58.879
<v Speaker 2>lot of horror stories about these poor guys and just

0:23:59.359 --> 0:24:02.800
<v Speaker 2>what happened to them over there. There was one who

0:24:03.119 --> 0:24:06.000
<v Speaker 2>Hamilton Gregory wrote about he would change the names of

0:24:06.040 --> 0:24:09.719
<v Speaker 2>these men, and he changed one of their names to Jerry.

0:24:09.880 --> 0:24:14.160
<v Speaker 2>And Jerry was on night guard duty at his posts

0:24:14.200 --> 0:24:18.359
<v Speaker 2>in Vietnam, and he was told that if he saw

0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:21.600
<v Speaker 2>anybody coming up to the fort that he was to

0:24:21.640 --> 0:24:24.840
<v Speaker 2>say halt and tell them to say who they were,

0:24:24.920 --> 0:24:30.119
<v Speaker 2>to identify themselves right, and even this basic order, Jerry

0:24:30.119 --> 0:24:33.280
<v Speaker 2>couldn't follow it because when he saw somebody moving in

0:24:33.359 --> 0:24:36.320
<v Speaker 2>the jungle, he just started opening fire and it turned

0:24:36.359 --> 0:24:40.480
<v Speaker 2>out it was an officer from his camp and he

0:24:40.600 --> 0:24:43.800
<v Speaker 2>killed them. He accidentally killed this officer because he just

0:24:43.800 --> 0:24:47.120
<v Speaker 2>started shooting because he didn't know how to follow orders.

0:24:47.680 --> 0:24:49.440
<v Speaker 1>You know why guys like you and I aren't fit

0:24:49.480 --> 0:24:52.040
<v Speaker 1>for the military. Why because you had a hard time

0:24:52.040 --> 0:24:55.280
<v Speaker 1>coming with the word order. Yeah, what's it called with that? Sara?

0:24:55.400 --> 0:24:57.159
<v Speaker 1>Jealous about the thing he wants us to do.

0:24:57.359 --> 0:25:01.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the instruction. But like anger instruction, anng re instruction.

0:25:02.000 --> 0:25:04.080
<v Speaker 1>I think that's the definition of orders, an angry instruction.

0:25:04.200 --> 0:25:04.880
<v Speaker 2>I think that too.

0:25:05.560 --> 0:25:08.320
<v Speaker 1>They also and this is you know, it gets even

0:25:08.359 --> 0:25:12.880
<v Speaker 1>sadder new Standardsmen were referred for psychiatric evaluation ten times

0:25:12.920 --> 0:25:16.960
<v Speaker 1>as frequently as other troops. And you know, they were

0:25:17.040 --> 0:25:19.400
<v Speaker 1>obviously going through a lot of anxiety, a lot of depression,

0:25:19.800 --> 0:25:24.320
<v Speaker 1>extreme agitation, and some of them frequently attempted suicide or

0:25:24.440 --> 0:25:27.520
<v Speaker 1>you know when a wall or attack their filler soldiers,

0:25:28.160 --> 0:25:30.720
<v Speaker 1>which all of a sudden you're in the stockade. You're

0:25:30.720 --> 0:25:34.320
<v Speaker 1>getting a conviction and a dishonorable discharge, which we're going

0:25:34.400 --> 0:25:35.040
<v Speaker 1>to talk more about.

0:25:35.359 --> 0:25:38.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was a big issue. But I mean I

0:25:38.400 --> 0:25:41.400
<v Speaker 2>saw the a wall thing described as like, I mean, imagine,

0:25:41.440 --> 0:25:45.080
<v Speaker 2>if everybody's really mean to you, beats you up, and

0:25:45.160 --> 0:25:48.000
<v Speaker 2>you just don't understand why, of course you're going to

0:25:48.080 --> 0:25:49.800
<v Speaker 2>want to get away from it. If you just can't

0:25:49.840 --> 0:25:52.680
<v Speaker 2>make sense of that, heads or tails, right, So a wall,

0:25:52.920 --> 0:25:54.919
<v Speaker 2>I mean there was a pretty good reason for a

0:25:54.920 --> 0:25:57.840
<v Speaker 2>lot of these guys to go a wall. And again,

0:25:58.280 --> 0:26:02.480
<v Speaker 2>I think Private piles experience in basic training was like

0:26:02.680 --> 0:26:05.639
<v Speaker 2>pretty true to life for what happened to some of

0:26:05.680 --> 0:26:10.000
<v Speaker 2>these guys. And you know, Private Pile chose kill and

0:26:10.040 --> 0:26:13.120
<v Speaker 2>then die himself rather than a wall, but a lot

0:26:13.160 --> 0:26:14.680
<v Speaker 2>of them chose a wall instead.

0:26:15.440 --> 0:26:16.160
<v Speaker 1>What a movie?

0:26:16.440 --> 0:26:19.399
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, man, that movie is just amazing.

0:26:19.640 --> 0:26:21.280
<v Speaker 1>We're talking about The Full Metal Jacket. By the way,

0:26:21.320 --> 0:26:23.240
<v Speaker 1>just in case people are like, what movie?

0:26:23.600 --> 0:26:25.520
<v Speaker 2>Yes, so good, good call man.

0:26:26.160 --> 0:26:29.320
<v Speaker 1>The Great Stanley Kubrick. Should we take our second break?

0:26:30.640 --> 0:26:31.439
<v Speaker 2>I think we should.

0:26:31.520 --> 0:26:33.520
<v Speaker 1>Yes, all right, We'll be right back and finish up

0:26:33.600 --> 0:26:35.240
<v Speaker 1>with Project one hundred thousand.

0:27:02.480 --> 0:27:04.640
<v Speaker 2>So I said, there are a lot of horror stories

0:27:04.680 --> 0:27:09.520
<v Speaker 2>and there are a plenty for the McNamara boys or

0:27:09.600 --> 0:27:14.439
<v Speaker 2>Project one hundred thousand men. What's much harder to find

0:27:14.600 --> 0:27:20.320
<v Speaker 2>are positive stories, like hopeful stories. I could find two,

0:27:21.240 --> 0:27:24.120
<v Speaker 2>but it turned out they were actually the same guy.

0:27:24.840 --> 0:27:27.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this isn't a silver lining situation.

0:27:28.160 --> 0:27:31.560
<v Speaker 2>No, definitely not. But the guy his name was Mike Sanchez,

0:27:32.040 --> 0:27:36.160
<v Speaker 2>not his real name, and he had two different experiences

0:27:36.280 --> 0:27:39.880
<v Speaker 2>while he was in Vietnam, and both of them were

0:27:39.960 --> 0:27:44.920
<v Speaker 2>because he was essentially adopted by his commanding officers at

0:27:44.920 --> 0:27:46.000
<v Speaker 2>both of his posts.

0:27:46.400 --> 0:27:49.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, which I mean, that's still not a silver lining,

0:27:49.840 --> 0:27:52.520
<v Speaker 1>but at least there were some compassionate officers who took

0:27:52.520 --> 0:27:54.480
<v Speaker 1>these guys under their wing and were like, I'm going

0:27:54.560 --> 0:27:57.400
<v Speaker 1>to try and see that this kid doesn't go home

0:27:57.440 --> 0:28:02.000
<v Speaker 1>in a pine box. So thankful for that obviously. But

0:28:02.960 --> 0:28:06.359
<v Speaker 1>one of the things that happened was a soldier like this,

0:28:06.440 --> 0:28:08.560
<v Speaker 1>and you know, apparently it happened to others. Is there

0:28:09.040 --> 0:28:11.639
<v Speaker 1>they were given assignments sort of under the wing of

0:28:11.640 --> 0:28:15.040
<v Speaker 1>that officer, like maybe be their driver. And in this case,

0:28:15.119 --> 0:28:17.919
<v Speaker 1>this guy was assigned to drive an officer but couldn't

0:28:18.000 --> 0:28:20.359
<v Speaker 1>drive and didn't have the capacity to learn how to drive,

0:28:20.800 --> 0:28:23.080
<v Speaker 1>so that instead of just you know, sticking him back

0:28:23.119 --> 0:28:25.600
<v Speaker 1>on the front line, this officer drove himself and just

0:28:25.640 --> 0:28:28.520
<v Speaker 1>had this guy sit next to him in the passenger seat.

0:28:28.680 --> 0:28:33.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So I mean, like, that's really taking a soldier

0:28:33.320 --> 0:28:35.399
<v Speaker 2>under your wing, Like, yeah, that is just straight up

0:28:35.440 --> 0:28:39.520
<v Speaker 2>protecting him. That was after That was the second part

0:28:39.600 --> 0:28:43.320
<v Speaker 2>of Mike Sanchez's stint in Vietnam. The first part of it,

0:28:43.520 --> 0:28:47.200
<v Speaker 2>he actually distinguished himself in battle. And this is actually

0:28:47.200 --> 0:28:49.600
<v Speaker 2>pretty similar to Forrest Gump if you think about it.

0:28:50.160 --> 0:28:52.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think this might have been directly inspired by that.

0:28:52.960 --> 0:28:53.719
<v Speaker 1>That was my feeling.

0:28:53.960 --> 0:28:58.000
<v Speaker 2>Okay, So Mike Sanchez when he first got to Vietnam,

0:28:58.680 --> 0:29:01.760
<v Speaker 2>his first commanding officer also took him under his wing

0:29:01.840 --> 0:29:04.160
<v Speaker 2>to protect him and was like, you have no business

0:29:04.160 --> 0:29:06.120
<v Speaker 2>being here. I'm going to see to it that you

0:29:06.160 --> 0:29:09.200
<v Speaker 2>make it out of here alive. And Mike Sanchez was

0:29:09.240 --> 0:29:12.400
<v Speaker 2>the kind of guy who just if you were nice

0:29:12.400 --> 0:29:13.760
<v Speaker 2>to him, if you were kind to him, if you

0:29:13.800 --> 0:29:17.600
<v Speaker 2>treated him with respect, he would he would loyal to

0:29:17.680 --> 0:29:20.680
<v Speaker 2>you to the end, like you just captured his heart.

0:29:21.080 --> 0:29:23.840
<v Speaker 2>And that happened with his first commanding officer. He felt

0:29:23.880 --> 0:29:27.160
<v Speaker 2>deeply loyal to them, and they ended up in a firefight.

0:29:26.720 --> 0:29:30.080
<v Speaker 1>Together, right, Yeah, and kind of just like out of

0:29:30.120 --> 0:29:35.120
<v Speaker 1>the movie Forrest Gump. The officer ended up in big trouble.

0:29:35.760 --> 0:29:38.440
<v Speaker 1>Mike couldn't find him. Everyone said he's back there, he

0:29:38.480 --> 0:29:40.400
<v Speaker 1>got hit, but no one was going back to get him.

0:29:40.720 --> 0:29:43.840
<v Speaker 1>So that's what this guy did. He ran back, ran back,

0:29:44.320 --> 0:29:47.320
<v Speaker 1>you know, foregoing his own safety, called out for him,

0:29:47.400 --> 0:29:50.480
<v Speaker 1>found him wounded he couldn't move, and carried him to

0:29:50.560 --> 0:29:53.520
<v Speaker 1>safety through some serious, you know, bullet fire and was

0:29:53.840 --> 0:29:55.640
<v Speaker 1>got the Silver Star for that action.

0:29:56.000 --> 0:29:57.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, isn't that cool?

0:29:57.760 --> 0:29:58.520
<v Speaker 1>It's pretty great.

0:29:59.160 --> 0:30:02.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Mike Santez, he's just one of those rare, hopeful

0:30:02.840 --> 0:30:06.160
<v Speaker 2>or nice stories. He actually went on to become a barber,

0:30:06.400 --> 0:30:09.160
<v Speaker 2>which was his dream because his brother was a barber,

0:30:09.200 --> 0:30:11.240
<v Speaker 2>so he got to go work with them after the army.

0:30:11.600 --> 0:30:14.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and again, don't bother googling because his name is

0:30:14.120 --> 0:30:14.920
<v Speaker 1>not Mike Sanchez.

0:30:15.320 --> 0:30:17.760
<v Speaker 2>No, but you can find an account of this by

0:30:17.800 --> 0:30:21.040
<v Speaker 2>the second CEO who he was the driver for. His

0:30:21.120 --> 0:30:24.920
<v Speaker 2>name was Jim Bracewell. He wrote an account about Mike Sanchez.

0:30:24.960 --> 0:30:26.480
<v Speaker 2>It's worth reading, for sure.

0:30:27.200 --> 0:30:30.680
<v Speaker 1>There was another one. This is from Dave Rus. One

0:30:30.720 --> 0:30:32.480
<v Speaker 1>of these guys, his name was Elmer. I don't know

0:30:32.520 --> 0:30:34.840
<v Speaker 1>if that's his real name or not in this case

0:30:34.880 --> 0:30:38.600
<v Speaker 1>but he was apparently just a real had a real

0:30:38.640 --> 0:30:41.280
<v Speaker 1>talent for keeping things super clean and orderly, and he

0:30:41.360 --> 0:30:43.840
<v Speaker 1>was assigned his assignment was to clean a sick bay

0:30:44.120 --> 0:30:48.040
<v Speaker 1>on a big navy ship, and he may not have

0:30:48.160 --> 0:30:51.479
<v Speaker 1>understood like what sterill meant and things like that, but

0:30:51.560 --> 0:30:54.000
<v Speaker 1>he really knew how to get stuff done and keep

0:30:54.000 --> 0:30:58.120
<v Speaker 1>the place clean and sterile. And he apparently had a

0:30:58.160 --> 0:31:01.840
<v Speaker 1>pretty rare positive experience, and that everyone loved this guy

0:31:02.280 --> 0:31:05.200
<v Speaker 1>and everyone thought he did a great job. And that's

0:31:05.200 --> 0:31:08.400
<v Speaker 1>sort of like, that's sort of what I was thinking earlier,

0:31:08.560 --> 0:31:12.120
<v Speaker 1>is you know, they knew so little about different intelligences

0:31:12.120 --> 0:31:14.840
<v Speaker 1>and things back then, and they probably could have found

0:31:15.000 --> 0:31:17.000
<v Speaker 1>a lot of roles that might have been suitable for

0:31:17.040 --> 0:31:19.440
<v Speaker 1>some of these guys. Instead, they were just like, we

0:31:19.480 --> 0:31:22.480
<v Speaker 1>want warm bodies on the front line because they're basically expendable.

0:31:22.800 --> 0:31:26.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, like basically booby trap catchers essentially.

0:31:26.840 --> 0:31:27.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:31:27.600 --> 0:31:31.560
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, those stories are very rare. For the most part,

0:31:32.680 --> 0:31:37.680
<v Speaker 2>the Project one hundred thousand recruits suffered greatly, and not

0:31:37.880 --> 0:31:41.280
<v Speaker 2>just in battle, but also at the hands of their

0:31:41.320 --> 0:31:46.200
<v Speaker 2>own platoon members, Like they just had it horrible all

0:31:46.240 --> 0:31:49.320
<v Speaker 2>around in a lot of cases, and so it's not

0:31:49.600 --> 0:31:52.480
<v Speaker 2>much of a surprise that when they were studied after

0:31:53.160 --> 0:31:56.240
<v Speaker 2>they left Vietnam and came back to the United States,

0:31:56.760 --> 0:31:59.880
<v Speaker 2>they had a much harder time than even the average

0:32:00.080 --> 0:32:04.320
<v Speaker 2>Vietnam VET who had a hard time themselves. These guys

0:32:04.320 --> 0:32:08.120
<v Speaker 2>had it even harder. They were apparently significantly more likely

0:32:08.200 --> 0:32:12.400
<v Speaker 2>to suffer PTSD compared to other vets, and that they

0:32:12.440 --> 0:32:15.440
<v Speaker 2>had harder time holding on a job, they had a

0:32:15.480 --> 0:32:18.840
<v Speaker 2>harder time with everyday living, and that they were more

0:32:18.960 --> 0:32:22.920
<v Speaker 2>likely to experience homelessness, drug addiction, and suicide than even

0:32:22.960 --> 0:32:24.520
<v Speaker 2>the average Vietnam VET.

0:32:25.240 --> 0:32:28.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, which, you know, the big thumb in the alley

0:32:28.600 --> 0:32:31.680
<v Speaker 1>in all this is it was kind of posed as now,

0:32:31.720 --> 0:32:33.960
<v Speaker 1>these guys are going to be so much better off

0:32:34.040 --> 0:32:36.600
<v Speaker 1>after serving their country in the army. YEP, They're going

0:32:36.680 --> 0:32:39.080
<v Speaker 1>to get better jobs, They're going to you know, work

0:32:39.120 --> 0:32:42.520
<v Speaker 1>themselves up into a maybe lower middle class situation when

0:32:42.520 --> 0:32:45.080
<v Speaker 1>they came from poverty in a lot of cases. And

0:32:45.200 --> 0:32:49.560
<v Speaker 1>they've studied this when compared to even when compared to

0:32:49.600 --> 0:32:52.480
<v Speaker 1>other low IQ Americans of the same age. Yeah, this

0:32:52.520 --> 0:32:55.800
<v Speaker 1>has been the veterans had worse financial outcomes. There was

0:32:55.840 --> 0:32:57.719
<v Speaker 1>a study in the eighties that found that ten percent

0:32:58.200 --> 0:33:00.920
<v Speaker 1>of low IQ veterans were unemployed compared with only three

0:33:00.920 --> 0:33:04.560
<v Speaker 1>percent of low IQ non veterans, and earn less money

0:33:04.600 --> 0:33:07.440
<v Speaker 1>an average of eighteen thousand dollars a year compared to

0:33:07.480 --> 0:33:09.959
<v Speaker 1>twenty four thousand dollars a year for non veterans.

0:33:10.240 --> 0:33:15.280
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and so again, just to clarify, they were supposed

0:33:15.280 --> 0:33:17.840
<v Speaker 2>to have a better life, like you said, after the

0:33:17.880 --> 0:33:21.920
<v Speaker 2>war than and they had a worse life. And one reason,

0:33:21.960 --> 0:33:25.120
<v Speaker 2>a huge reason why is something you touched on earlier.

0:33:25.480 --> 0:33:27.760
<v Speaker 2>A lot of them, I think something like half of

0:33:27.800 --> 0:33:31.880
<v Speaker 2>them were discharged under conditions other than honorable. And if

0:33:31.880 --> 0:33:34.880
<v Speaker 2>you have anything but an honorable discharge from the military,

0:33:35.280 --> 0:33:38.840
<v Speaker 2>you are stigmatized for the rest of your life. Not

0:33:38.920 --> 0:33:41.800
<v Speaker 2>only will businesses typically not hire you, there's plenty of

0:33:41.840 --> 0:33:46.960
<v Speaker 2>businesses who won't. The military itself, like the VA, will

0:33:46.960 --> 0:33:49.480
<v Speaker 2>help you less than it will help other vets, Like

0:33:49.560 --> 0:33:53.240
<v Speaker 2>it's harder to get access to healthcare and to job

0:33:53.280 --> 0:33:55.800
<v Speaker 2>counseling and to all the things that somebody like a

0:33:55.840 --> 0:33:59.680
<v Speaker 2>Project one hundred thousand recruit would need after they got

0:33:59.680 --> 0:34:01.960
<v Speaker 2>back to America, that was shut down to half of

0:34:02.000 --> 0:34:04.360
<v Speaker 2>them because they were discharged dishonorably.

0:34:04.920 --> 0:34:07.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, it's just so shameful. There was at

0:34:07.960 --> 0:34:10.879
<v Speaker 1>least one guy that was a recruiter who I guess

0:34:10.880 --> 0:34:14.200
<v Speaker 1>felt pretty bad about taking part in this. Is a

0:34:14.280 --> 0:34:17.640
<v Speaker 1>veteran named Bill Daniel, and he, you know, put a

0:34:17.640 --> 0:34:19.919
<v Speaker 1>lot of thought into this after the war and said,

0:34:19.960 --> 0:34:22.720
<v Speaker 1>you know what I'm gonna They called it bad paper

0:34:22.800 --> 0:34:26.200
<v Speaker 1>if you got a dishonorable discharge, and so he wanted

0:34:26.239 --> 0:34:29.440
<v Speaker 1>to appeal as many of these bad paper discharges as

0:34:29.440 --> 0:34:33.880
<v Speaker 1>he could, and he was successful in four hundred cases.

0:34:35.040 --> 0:34:37.719
<v Speaker 1>You know, one hundred and eighty thousand of them were

0:34:37.840 --> 0:34:41.440
<v Speaker 1>dishonorably discharged, So four hundred isn't much, but you know,

0:34:41.560 --> 0:34:44.080
<v Speaker 1>this for Bill Daniel to take, you know, to spend

0:34:44.120 --> 0:34:47.359
<v Speaker 1>his time and his life getting four hundred of these

0:34:47.400 --> 0:34:49.040
<v Speaker 1>guys cleared is pretty admirable.

0:34:49.200 --> 0:34:52.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And then one more thing about the bad paper,

0:34:52.560 --> 0:34:57.040
<v Speaker 2>the dishonorable discharges. Apparently, among Project one hundred thousand recruits,

0:34:57.760 --> 0:35:02.360
<v Speaker 2>the main reason that that was given for their dishonorable

0:35:02.400 --> 0:35:06.200
<v Speaker 2>discharge was that they were unsuitable for the military, and

0:35:06.440 --> 0:35:10.120
<v Speaker 2>that was the case from the outset. The military brought

0:35:10.120 --> 0:35:12.960
<v Speaker 2>them on on purpose anyway, and then spit them out

0:35:12.960 --> 0:35:15.239
<v Speaker 2>the other end, saying you should have never been in

0:35:15.280 --> 0:35:17.600
<v Speaker 2>the military in the first place, and now here's the

0:35:17.680 --> 0:35:19.719
<v Speaker 2>stigma for you to carry around for the rest of

0:35:19.760 --> 0:35:20.280
<v Speaker 2>your life.

0:35:20.719 --> 0:35:25.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Man, So did Robert McNamara feel bad about all this,

0:35:25.400 --> 0:35:29.960
<v Speaker 1>because he's certainly somebody who, maybe more so than most

0:35:30.360 --> 0:35:34.440
<v Speaker 1>secretaries of Defense, looked back a lot on his life

0:35:34.480 --> 0:35:37.600
<v Speaker 1>and he wrote about it, and it was a memoir

0:35:37.680 --> 0:35:40.520
<v Speaker 1>called In Retrospect colon the Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam.

0:35:40.600 --> 0:35:43.320
<v Speaker 1>He also very famously was in the Great Aarra Morris's

0:35:43.360 --> 0:35:45.720
<v Speaker 1>documentary The Fog of War, where he talked at length

0:35:46.120 --> 0:35:48.560
<v Speaker 1>about things that he did right and wrong. So surely

0:35:48.800 --> 0:35:50.880
<v Speaker 1>he looked back on Project one hundred thousand is a

0:35:50.880 --> 0:35:51.759
<v Speaker 1>big mistake.

0:35:51.520 --> 0:35:54.680
<v Speaker 2>Right, No, No, I could tell by your tone that

0:35:54.760 --> 0:35:58.840
<v Speaker 2>you knew that, But he didn't. He actually did apologize

0:35:58.840 --> 0:36:02.840
<v Speaker 2>for things like his involvement in pushing for escalating the

0:36:02.840 --> 0:36:05.520
<v Speaker 2>war in Vietnam. Like he he wasn't one of those guys.

0:36:05.560 --> 0:36:08.160
<v Speaker 2>He's like, no, I never did anything wrong, You're all wrong.

0:36:08.600 --> 0:36:12.960
<v Speaker 2>He soul searched, like you said, more than most other

0:36:13.040 --> 0:36:17.080
<v Speaker 2>people in his position, But he never apologized for Project

0:36:17.080 --> 0:36:20.640
<v Speaker 2>one hundred thousand. And I don't know what that says

0:36:21.840 --> 0:36:24.560
<v Speaker 2>like on his face you would suspect, well, he really

0:36:24.640 --> 0:36:26.400
<v Speaker 2>was a true believer. He didn't think it was a

0:36:27.320 --> 0:36:31.319
<v Speaker 2>like he wasn't doing anything nefarious. But I mean, these

0:36:31.360 --> 0:36:34.640
<v Speaker 2>guys who were like planning and carrying out the Vietnam War,

0:36:35.400 --> 0:36:38.400
<v Speaker 2>you had to be nefarius to be doing that, you know.

0:36:38.920 --> 0:36:42.160
<v Speaker 2>So how much credit can you give him? How much

0:36:42.280 --> 0:36:44.040
<v Speaker 2>benefit of the doubt do you give him?

0:36:44.480 --> 0:36:47.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I don't know. I mean the vet that wrote

0:36:47.800 --> 0:36:51.560
<v Speaker 1>that book, Hamilton Gregory, he himself was like, yeah, you

0:36:51.600 --> 0:36:54.960
<v Speaker 1>know what, I think he actually had good intentions. I

0:36:55.000 --> 0:36:57.080
<v Speaker 1>think he really did think he could coach them up

0:36:57.160 --> 0:36:59.719
<v Speaker 1>into a better life and that the military would be

0:36:59.760 --> 0:37:02.080
<v Speaker 1>genuinely good for them. And then it was just a

0:37:02.080 --> 0:37:05.960
<v Speaker 1>tragic misjudgment and not just an attempt to you know,

0:37:06.120 --> 0:37:08.359
<v Speaker 1>supply the front lines with warm bodies. But you know

0:37:08.560 --> 0:37:10.880
<v Speaker 1>that's it may be generous. I don't know.

0:37:11.080 --> 0:37:14.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, other people like the guy who wrote We Were Soldiers,

0:37:14.200 --> 0:37:17.680
<v Speaker 2>Joe Galloway, He was embedded with the seventh Cavalry in

0:37:18.000 --> 0:37:21.560
<v Speaker 2>battle with in Vietnam. He actually was one of the

0:37:21.640 --> 0:37:24.839
<v Speaker 2>rare civilians decorated with the Bronze Star for valor during

0:37:24.840 --> 0:37:27.960
<v Speaker 2>a battle. He was just a war. Corresponding in he

0:37:28.200 --> 0:37:31.840
<v Speaker 2>was like, no, this is unforgivable. Yeah, he essentially said

0:37:31.960 --> 0:37:35.719
<v Speaker 2>in a column the day after McNamara died, like just

0:37:35.800 --> 0:37:38.160
<v Speaker 2>from Project one hundred thousand, he's on his way to

0:37:38.239 --> 0:37:38.960
<v Speaker 2>hell basically.

0:37:39.480 --> 0:37:42.560
<v Speaker 1>Yep. I mean that's what he said. Not I'm not

0:37:42.600 --> 0:37:44.319
<v Speaker 1>saying he's on the side hell right.

0:37:44.520 --> 0:37:47.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I'm paraphrasing too, but that's that's basically what

0:37:47.719 --> 0:37:49.880
<v Speaker 2>he said. Yeah, and I think a lot of people

0:37:49.920 --> 0:37:53.959
<v Speaker 2>agree with him for that too. You got anything else?

0:37:54.440 --> 0:37:58.000
<v Speaker 1>I got nothing else? Looking forward to moving on to

0:37:58.600 --> 0:37:59.680
<v Speaker 1>more positive stories.

0:38:00.120 --> 0:38:02.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Who was the person that suggested it?

0:38:03.719 --> 0:38:05.160
<v Speaker 1>David Bryant's mom.

0:38:05.440 --> 0:38:08.080
<v Speaker 2>Thanks David Bryant's mom. We appreciate that that was a

0:38:08.120 --> 0:38:10.799
<v Speaker 2>good idea. I'm glad we learned about it. I'm glad

0:38:10.800 --> 0:38:12.520
<v Speaker 2>we could tell everybody else about it because it's not

0:38:12.560 --> 0:38:17.000
<v Speaker 2>a very well known part of American history. Totally, Chuck said, totally.

0:38:17.400 --> 0:38:23.000
<v Speaker 2>He just triggered listener mail, this.

0:38:23.040 --> 0:38:27.520
<v Speaker 1>Is about R Shorty. Can you not have a name? Hi? Guys,

0:38:27.640 --> 0:38:30.759
<v Speaker 1>my second time emailing. Just listened to can you Not

0:38:30.760 --> 0:38:32.439
<v Speaker 1>Have a Name and had to email about a most

0:38:32.560 --> 0:38:34.759
<v Speaker 1>unusual name I've come across in my fifty plus years

0:38:34.760 --> 0:38:37.600
<v Speaker 1>of working with the public, thirty in the restaurant industry,

0:38:37.640 --> 0:38:40.480
<v Speaker 1>sixteen doing vacation rules, and now four and a half

0:38:40.560 --> 0:38:43.239
<v Speaker 1>years owning a flower shop. Nice About seven or eight

0:38:43.320 --> 0:38:46.200
<v Speaker 1>years ago, a customer came in of Asian descent and

0:38:46.200 --> 0:38:48.720
<v Speaker 1>gave me his credit card that showed me his surname

0:38:48.760 --> 0:38:52.040
<v Speaker 1>as Why Why. I commented, I said, what an unusual

0:38:52.080 --> 0:38:54.680
<v Speaker 1>last name, and he asked if he was if it

0:38:54.760 --> 0:38:57.520
<v Speaker 1>was a common Asian name, and he said, actually, my

0:38:57.760 --> 0:39:01.440
<v Speaker 1>last name is only Why. But American Express does not

0:39:01.480 --> 0:39:03.759
<v Speaker 1>accept the last name composed of just one letter, so

0:39:03.800 --> 0:39:06.080
<v Speaker 1>I had to add the second why well, just to

0:39:06.080 --> 0:39:09.239
<v Speaker 1>get the credit card. Also, my sister and I are

0:39:09.280 --> 0:39:11.560
<v Speaker 1>both baby boomers, and we were not given middle names,

0:39:11.920 --> 0:39:13.759
<v Speaker 1>so we could take our maiden name as our middle

0:39:13.840 --> 0:39:15.600
<v Speaker 1>name once we got married and not have to drop

0:39:15.600 --> 0:39:16.200
<v Speaker 1>that middle name.

0:39:16.320 --> 0:39:17.480
<v Speaker 2>Oh I never thought about that.

0:39:17.880 --> 0:39:20.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, worked for my sister, but I'm still single and

0:39:21.040 --> 0:39:22.960
<v Speaker 1>looking for a man with a short last name.

0:39:24.560 --> 0:39:25.200
<v Speaker 2>What's her name?

0:39:25.800 --> 0:39:29.440
<v Speaker 1>So this is Jane Trahanofski, who is the owner of

0:39:29.640 --> 0:39:33.160
<v Speaker 1>Levon's Florals in Newport Beach, California. And I even went

0:39:33.200 --> 0:39:36.520
<v Speaker 1>to the website. It's like a lovely flower shop business

0:39:37.040 --> 0:39:39.920
<v Speaker 1>and so you know, pop in and see Jane. If

0:39:39.920 --> 0:39:42.280
<v Speaker 1>you you're a boomer with a short last name.

0:39:42.480 --> 0:39:44.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you could do a lot worse than going to

0:39:44.800 --> 0:39:48.479
<v Speaker 2>Newport Beach for a day or two. Totally well, thanks

0:39:48.520 --> 0:39:51.239
<v Speaker 2>a lot, Jane. We appreciate that. We love anecdotes and

0:39:51.280 --> 0:39:54.160
<v Speaker 2>stories about stuff that have to do with episodes we've

0:39:54.160 --> 0:39:56.759
<v Speaker 2>recently recorded, and if you have one of those, you

0:39:56.800 --> 0:39:59.040
<v Speaker 2>can talk to us via email. Send it off to

0:39:59.120 --> 0:40:04.680
<v Speaker 2>Stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.

0:40:04.840 --> 0:40:07.719
<v Speaker 1>Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

0:40:07.800 --> 0:40:12.000
<v Speaker 1>more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

0:40:12.120 --> 0:40:13.960
<v Speaker 1>or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.