1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:13,399 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's 3 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is Stuff you 4 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 2: Should Know with a happy, fun, upbeat edition of Stuff 5 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 2: you Should Know. 6 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: Another entry in the shameful American history? Yea bucket? Do 7 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: you want to thank a listener for this idea? By 8 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 1: the way, this came from David Bryant? No relation, are 9 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: you sure? Yeah? I don't have any. The only David 10 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: in my family's my cousin, and he is a Mills, Okay, 11 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: but specifically David Bryant's mom I believe gave David this 12 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: idea or asked David if those boys ever did a 13 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: show on the one Project one hundred thousand. And we 14 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: also should shout out a writer, Hamilton Gregory, who was 15 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: a Vietnam vett and journalist and who wrote a book 16 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: McNamara's follow colon the use of low IQ troops in 17 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,320 Speaker 1: the Vietnam War, which I guess sort of gives away 18 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: what we're talking about. 19 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, because the name of the project Project one hundred 20 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:12,960 Speaker 2: thousand certainly doesn't. 21 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean another name of it was McNamara's Morons 22 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: from Defense Secretary Robert McNamara. But that name is awful, 23 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: so I'd love to not use it again. 24 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's ridiculously derogatory. Even when this was going on 25 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 2: in the mid sixties to the very early seventies, it 26 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:33,400 Speaker 2: was still quite derogatory. It hadn't been like a medical 27 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 2: term since like the nineteen teen so it was just 28 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 2: mean all around. And that's pretty appropriate because this whole 29 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 2: idea of this project, which was a wartime effort to 30 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 2: essentially lower the standards for military recruitment so that people 31 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 2: with low enough IQs that they were either borderlined or 32 00:01:54,360 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 2: mildly cognitively challenged would be acceptable into military se And 33 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 2: it depends on who you ask what the purpose was. 34 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 2: We'll go into both of them. Yeah, but for the 35 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 2: most part, it seems like it probably was as bad 36 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 2: as it seems on its face, that it wasn't an actual, 37 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 2: like good idea ever among anybody. 38 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, that's a great setup for a change 39 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: for us. You know, usually people are like, what is 40 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:25,079 Speaker 1: this even you're talking about? 41 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, and how'd you guys confuse me already? We're only 42 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 2: in a minute two Yeah. 43 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: So I guess we'll just dive right in. I mentioned 44 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 1: Robert McNamara, who was during the Vietnam War was the 45 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: Secretary of Defense, and this was an idea that wasn't 46 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 1: something that he just thought of then we'll get into it. 47 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: But he had thought of this idea previously. But it 48 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: was also something the US military had faced previously when 49 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,359 Speaker 1: it came wartime and they found out that like, hey, 50 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: we had a real problem with not having enough soldiers. 51 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 1: We really overestimated how many like you know, fit literate 52 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: men were qualified to serve because this is what's what 53 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: a time when it was I mean, was it exclusively men? 54 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 2: Yeah? World War two for sure, at least for combat roles. 55 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 2: I think there were other roles for women. But as 56 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 2: far as combats concerned, yes, definitely. 57 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, And so they h and that was also the 58 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: first war, which is one reason they had this shortage 59 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: that the first war that they had these really kind 60 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: of big leaps forward in technology with you know, weaponry 61 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 1: and communications to where they had specialists that you know, 62 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: the brightest of the bright that did that stuff right, 63 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: and everyone else is in combat. So once they had 64 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: the specialists assign they were like, hey, we don't have 65 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: enough like front line dudes. 66 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 2: No, So they had a choice. They could either say, 67 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 2: some of you specialists, we may have assigned you to 68 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 2: radar duty too hastily. We need you to be on 69 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 2: the front lines because we don't have enough combat soldiers. 70 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 2: Or they could lower their standards to allow more people 71 00:03:54,960 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 2: into the army or infantry so they would automatically be 72 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 2: combat soldiers. 73 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, and one guy said, but my name is radar, right, 74 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: and he said, well, just get over to the Mash unit. Then. 75 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, man, that show was not funny to me. 76 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: Is this the first time I'm hearing this. 77 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 2: I don't know. 78 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: Maybe you're not a Mash fan. No, I thought you 79 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 1: love Mash. 80 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 2: No. I remember like hanging out with my dad. Well 81 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:24,679 Speaker 2: he watched it and he would like laugh and clap 82 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 2: and everything, and I'd be like, this is not funny. 83 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 2: And then I grew up and I'm still like, this 84 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 2: is not funny. 85 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: Wow, that's funny, because the other day Rip Loretta Swit 86 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 1: who just passed away Hotcholahan. I was remarking on Paula 87 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: Tompkin's Instagram page because he did a little tribute to 88 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: her that it's like, it's so funny for me to 89 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: think back of being like a twelve year old kid 90 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: watching a movie about alcoholic surgeons in the Korean War 91 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: on Thursdays five times a day, every other day of 92 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 1: the week, four times a day. I ate it up. 93 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: I thought it was the best thing ever. 94 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 2: Well, I liked the movie. 95 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: Interesting. 96 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 2: Why do you dislike the movie but like this show? No. 97 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: I mean the movie is just the great Robert Altman, 98 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 1: so I certainly love it, but I just think it's interesting. Yeah, 99 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: I thought you were a Mash guy. 100 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 2: I mean, once they got rid of Trapper John, I 101 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 2: was like, I'm done with even giving this a chance. 102 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:19,840 Speaker 1: But this is what I like about our friendship is 103 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 1: we're still learning about each other after all these years. 104 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:24,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, and we can still get along despite our views 105 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 2: on Mash. 106 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: This is gonna take me a minute, but it'll be fine. 107 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 2: So we left off basically before this little tangent that 108 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 2: the army had a decision either lower their standards to 109 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 2: allow more combat troops in or get some of those 110 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 2: specialists stuff to the front lines. And they're like, we'll 111 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 2: just go ahead and lower our standards. 112 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, And they did that. They lowered the intelligence standards 113 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: and they were pretty surprised. They're like, wow, a lot 114 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: of you guys maybe are illiterate and can't read, maybe 115 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: you can't understand basic orders. Even we knew obviously this 116 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 1: is the nineteen forties, so much less about mental challenges 117 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: and different intelligences and learning disabilities and like you were 118 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: either this or you were that back then, And so 119 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: all of a sudden they said, oh, well, we had 120 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 1: a lot of that, and we thought it would be 121 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: a little more like guys like. 122 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 2: This, right, So I think they managed to get three 123 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:25,359 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty thousand men at least they kind of 124 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 2: opened the floodgates during World War Two. This is just 125 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 2: between forty two and forty five. But the caveat to 126 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 2: this is that the military provided remedial education classes. Like 127 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 2: you would sign up for three years, they would teach you. 128 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 2: They'd spend some of this time teaching you what you 129 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 2: didn't learn in high school because maybe you dropped out, 130 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 2: or maybe your high school sucked, maybe you had to 131 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:48,919 Speaker 2: work in the fields half of the day so you 132 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 2: didn't get a full education. The army educated them to 133 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 2: bring them up to the level that their former standards met, right. 134 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, or try to at least. 135 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, they did their best. And then after War two 136 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 2: ended and Hitler was dead, dead, dead, the army was like, well, 137 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 2: the military in general said, we're gonna re raise our 138 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 2: standards back to where they were before. 139 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, and then they needed to make the movie 140 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: mash and then later the TV show. So they started 141 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: the Korean War. 142 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 2: Well wait, the Rosenberg started the Korean War, don't forget 143 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 2: that's right. 144 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: No, the Korean War came along and they had the 145 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: same problem, of course, so they lowered the standards again, 146 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: of course, and there was another scramble to kind of 147 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: get ready, and so they were like, you know, guys, 148 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: before we go into our next war, which we should 149 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: do pretty soon, we need to like have a real 150 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: plan in place for this and and you know, get 151 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: the manpower we need the right way. And so part 152 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: of that was, you know, led into what led to 153 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: Project one hundred thousand. Yeah that wasn't all, though. 154 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 2: No, that wasn't all. There was this this I don't 155 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 2: know how much faith to put in this. Let's just 156 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 2: present it as if it's real and we'll let the 157 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 2: listeners decide. Okay, But there's a senator named Daniel Patrick moynihan. 158 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 2: He was a longtime sitting Senator for New York. Prior 159 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 2: to that, in the era that we're talking about, he 160 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 2: was assistant Secretary of Labor under both Kennedy and LBJ. 161 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 2: He was actually one of the architects of the War 162 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 2: on Poverty. And I don't know if it was his 163 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 2: idea or he just really bought into this idea, but 164 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 2: it was that there's a bunch of people who aren't 165 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 2: fit for military service, either because they're overweight or underweight, 166 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 2: or because they're not intelligent enough to pass the basic 167 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 2: intelligence standards. I think he found like thirty percent of 168 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:48,199 Speaker 2: American men weren't fit for military service because of those standards. 169 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 2: So he said, Okay, rather than go back to the 170 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 2: beginning and try to fix the educational system, let's just 171 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 2: get these people into the army and let the army 172 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 2: kind of like polish them up so that once they're 173 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 2: done with their hitch, they can become productive members of society. 174 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 2: And even better, we're taking people out of like abject poverty, 175 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 2: giving them a chance to have like a life for 176 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 2: themselves and provide a stable a stable home for their children, 177 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 2: who can then go on to become middle class and 178 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 2: so on and so forth in the cycle of poverty 179 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 2: will be broken. That's what Daniel Patrick Boynihan was saying. 180 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, and he had a lot of people on his side. 181 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: It wasn't some hugely controversial thing to propose. It was 182 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:35,559 Speaker 1: at a time when it was like, you know, you 183 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: got a kid who's a problem, send them into the army, 184 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: and you know they'll they'll shape you up into a 185 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: real man and a productive member of society. It was 186 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: kind of the way of thinking at the time, so 187 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 1: much so that John F. Kennedy and Lyndon Mains Johnson, 188 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: they were big time believers in this. They were both 189 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: like fully fully on board. So we just want to 190 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: make that clear. It wasn't just one or two people 191 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: making these decisions, and there were presidents going, I don't 192 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: know about that. That doesn't sound like the idea, right. We 193 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: will kind of hit some early critics because there were some, 194 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: but people were kind of steaming ahead, you know, full 195 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: steam ahead with this steaming ahead, full steam. 196 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 2: Ahead, that's really steamy, that's full steam. Yeah, Kennedy said 197 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty three. Are today's military rejects include Tomorrow's 198 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 2: or hardcore unemployed. 199 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: You know, it's funny I have written down on my thing. 200 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 2: Do you really? 201 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: Oh? 202 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was the worst Kennedy anyone's ever done. But 203 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 2: that was my best. 204 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: I know. We're all frightened and horny. And the LBJ 205 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: for his part, can I do? LBJ? 206 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 2: Yeah? 207 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: He was a country guy. 208 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 2: Right Texan? 209 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, we'll teach him to get up at daylight 210 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: and work till dark and shave and bathe, and when 211 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: when we turn them out, we'll have them prepared at 212 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 1: least to drive a truck or a bakery wagon or 213 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: stand at a gate. 214 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 2: That was more a gentleman dressed in a seersucker suit 215 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 2: at a Kentucky derby. I think all. 216 00:10:57,920 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: Right either, WELLBJ did that? 217 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:01,959 Speaker 2: Hey it was better than Mike Kennedy. How about that? 218 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: It was fine? 219 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:06,839 Speaker 2: So you mentioned that we were going to kind of 220 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 2: run into some of the critics early to this idea, 221 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 2: and the first vocal critics were the military leaders themselves. 222 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 2: They were like, this is no, we don't want to 223 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 2: do this. Were not the armies, not to rehabilitate and 224 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 2: educate people who got left behind in school, do something 225 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 2: else with them. There were other people who were like Yeah, 226 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:30,559 Speaker 2: there's this thing called job corps. If you heard a 227 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 2: job corps, that's what that's for. Don't send them to 228 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 2: the military. So it wasn't like a home run once 229 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 2: it left the Oval Office and started to spread outward 230 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 2: on Capitol Hill. 231 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. But that's where it did go because 232 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty six is when Robert McNamara formally announced 233 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: Project one hundred thousand. But this was, like I mentioned, 234 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: not only the US military tried to this before, but 235 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: McNamara himself had tried this before two years earlier. In 236 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: sixty four, he proposed something called the Special Training Enlistment Program, 237 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: or the STEP program, And this was not full project 238 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: from one hundred thousand. It was a little more like, hey, 239 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 1: we got a like forty thousand guys that didn't meet 240 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: the standards, but they're super close. Maybe they're just below 241 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: the IQ test level, or maybe they need to put 242 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: on a few pounds or shave a few pounds, And 243 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 1: the STEP program was intended to kind of correct those 244 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: guys up quickly in getting on board, but it would 245 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: cost a little bit of money. They would enlist for 246 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: three years receive this special training, and that special training 247 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: was going to cost about sixteen million bucks. So Congress said, no, 248 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 1: we're not going to pay for that. No. 249 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 2: And one other thing you kind of mentioned it is 250 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 2: that they were going to get remedial instruction like the 251 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 2: soldiers in World War two got right. That was part 252 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 2: of the program. 253 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: That was what the sixteen million was for. 254 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,079 Speaker 2: Okay. So Congress said no, like you said, and mac 255 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 2: namara is like, okay, whatever, I'm just gonna move on 256 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 2: any of other things to do right now, like agitate 257 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 2: for escalation in Vietnam. And in nineteen sixty six, apparently 258 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 2: he was chatting with some Marines and they made mention 259 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 2: that they had actually set up their own little special 260 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 2: training program so that the recruits who weren't cutting it 261 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 2: hacking it could be kind of like brought up to 262 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 2: minimum standards themselves. And he had a a Eureka light 263 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 2: bulb moment basically saying like, I'm going to steal the 264 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 2: idea and make it military wide, and that way Congress 265 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 2: doesn't have to have their greedy little fingers in it, 266 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,599 Speaker 2: because I can just use their regular training budget for 267 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 2: this kind of thing. 268 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, and they can. You know, those Marines had their 269 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 1: private piles that they got up to speed and turned 270 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:46,199 Speaker 1: them into killing machines, just like in the movie. 271 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean Private Pile is based on this Project 272 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,319 Speaker 2: one hundred thousand, and we're about to talk about like 273 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 2: one hundred percent. 274 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I feel like Forrest Gump has got to 275 00:13:56,400 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 1: be inspired by this, even though that was now were 276 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: a part of the movie that at least made it 277 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: into the movie. I don't know about original script, if 278 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 1: he had any kind of special training or anything. 279 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 2: I don't know, or the book by Winston Groom. It's 280 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 2: possible that he ran across that in the research, but 281 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 2: not just Force but Bubba as well. 282 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, good point. 283 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 2: So I say we took a break and come back 284 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 2: and talk about how Project one hundred thousand actually kind 285 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 2: of made it. 286 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: Let's do it all right. So where we left off, 287 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: as McNamara found a work around from the official Step 288 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: program to basically an unofficial Step program, And in nineteen 289 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: sixty six, they found that they really needed this because 290 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: they had a pretty dire manpower situation. Because one reason 291 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: is because of the incredible amount of deferments. I saw 292 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: some stats that from draft eligible men in nineteen sixty six, 293 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: sixty percent of them took some sort of action to 294 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: gain a deferment. A lot of them rushed off to 295 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: get married because initially there was a marriage deferment. A 296 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: lot of them went to college that maybe weren't too 297 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: keen on it because there was a college deferment. There 298 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: were medical deferments. They were certainly wealthy kids who had 299 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: their parents pay their way out of the war with 300 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: things like medical deferments. There were conscientious objector deferments, like 301 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: one hundred and seventy thousand of those people having kids 302 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: like they could. They sort of started moving the goalpost 303 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: a little bit with the marriage and kids thing, because 304 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: at first it was like if you're married or not going, 305 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 1: But then they're like, actually we need to marry you guys, 306 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: maybe if you just don't have kids. So guys started 307 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 1: having kids so long way of saying they needed they 308 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 1: needed infantrymen on the front line. Another way to avoid 309 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: it was obviously joining something like the National Guard or 310 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: the Coast Guard. 311 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, because then you could be like, the Coast Guard 312 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 2: is almost certainly not going to Vietnam. I'll join the 313 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 2: Coast Guard so I can serve and help out, but 314 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 2: I'm not going to be shipped off to Vietnam. Some 315 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 2: people also just fled the country, went to Canada. Sweden 316 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 2: was another place where what are called draft dodgers ran 317 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 2: off to. So yeah, there were a lot of people, 318 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 2: particularly middle class and hire who were just basically not 319 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 2: having to go fight in Vietnam. Right. And the other 320 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 2: reason why they needed people, or the basic reason why 321 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 2: they needed a bunch of people all of a sudden, 322 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 2: or fighting men, I should say, on the front lines, 323 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 2: is because in nineteen sixty six, the US sent combat 324 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 2: troops to the ground in Vietnam, in South Vietnam. To 325 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 2: that point, the US had been nothing but advisors and trainers. 326 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 2: And then there was the Gulf of Tonkin incident where 327 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 2: a Navy ship was fired upon. That kind of brought 328 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 2: the US into the war and we started like doing 329 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,360 Speaker 2: firebombing raids. And then finally they were like, we need 330 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 2: infantry men. And that's when they really needed a bunch 331 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 2: of people to go fight in Vietnam. And that's when 332 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 2: Project one hundred thousand was like, yeah, let's let's do 333 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 2: this because we need to. 334 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, And i' mean I didn't even look it up, 335 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: but I imagine were they trying to get one hundred 336 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 1: thousand soldiers. Was that that number per year? Oh, per year? Okay, 337 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: because they ended up getting far more than that they did. 338 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: They were officially active with this project from October first, 339 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: sixty six through the end of the year seventy one, 340 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 1: so about five years. And there were early critics of 341 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 1: this you know, official program as well, and a lot 342 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: of them, you know, kind of makes sense, but a 343 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 1: lot of them early on were civil rights leaders. There 344 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,119 Speaker 1: was a congressman named Adam Clayton Powell who said, this 345 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 1: is genocide for poor black Americans. It's nothing more than 346 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: killing off human beings that are not members of the elite. 347 00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: But nevertheless they pushed on. 348 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, the very fact that these these men 349 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:08,160 Speaker 2: came from high levels of poverty and had learning disabilities 350 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 2: in a lot of cases meant that they were not 351 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:13,239 Speaker 2: going to get any kind of college deferment. They were 352 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 2: almost certainly not in college, and even if they were, 353 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 2: they weren't doing a good enough job to get a deferment. 354 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 2: And then secondly, national guards, almost to a state were 355 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 2: still segregated, so if you were black, you couldn't go 356 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 2: join the National Guard and not be shipped off to Vietnam. 357 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 2: So these were really vulnerable population of people that they 358 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 2: tapped into with Project one hundred thousand. 359 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, and they called these guys the New Standards recruits 360 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 1: Capital and Capital S and most of those New Standards 361 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 1: guys were sent to Vietnam. Out of those guys, about 362 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: half of them served in combat roles. And this is 363 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 1: what that looked like. 364 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think there were a total of three hundred 365 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 2: and fifty four thousand men who were admitted in that time. 366 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 2: Ninety one percent hadn't met the previous minimum i CUE requirements, 367 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:03,400 Speaker 2: and the score on the Armed Forces Qualification Test, which 368 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 2: measured intelligence among other things, was thirteen point six, which 369 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 2: meant that the New Standards men had an IQ average 370 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,199 Speaker 2: around seventy five, whereas for all recruits the average was 371 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 2: IQ of about one hundred. And that's the average IQ. 372 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 2: I saw that seventy is the cutoff the beginning of 373 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 2: mild cognitive disabilities. So if seventy five is the average, 374 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 2: that means there were people with real cognitive disabilities who 375 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 2: were in this three hundred and fifty four thousand men 376 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 2: who were part of Project one hundred thousand. 377 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 1: Yeah. Forty eight percent of those guys were from the 378 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 1: South compared to twenty eight percent of the total recruits, 379 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 1: and thirty eight percent were non white, when minorities at 380 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: the time made up just about ten percent overall. 381 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 2: Right, so you can imagine that these men who didn't 382 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 2: meet the minimum requirements that had previously been met, some 383 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:03,199 Speaker 2: of them couldn't even meet these new lowered requirements, and 384 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,640 Speaker 2: so recruiters stepped in and did some really shady stuff 385 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 2: to get people into this project one hundred thousand. 386 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:14,959 Speaker 1: Shoot, yeah, recruiters. I mean they can say whatever they 387 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: want because they're not you know, you can't go back 388 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:19,439 Speaker 1: and say, oh, well, my recruiter said I wasn't supposed 389 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 1: to go to the front line. That just doesn't fly. 390 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: So they could say whatever they want. They could say, 391 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 1: you're not going to go to the front line. Maybe 392 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 1: you won't even go to Vietnam. You may be you know, 393 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: you're going to get really great job training and set 394 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 1: you up great for later in life after you get 395 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: out of the army. Their job is to recruit you, 396 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: not to be held to anything that they say. 397 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 2: So wrong, man, especially when you're dealing with people with 398 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 2: cognitive disabilities, you know, for sure, especially people who are illiterate, 399 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 2: and some of them were illiterate, so the recruiters would 400 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 2: bring in ringers, people they paid to take the tests 401 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:57,199 Speaker 2: for the qualification tests for these men who were the 402 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 2: new standards men, and they I mean that's just fraud, 403 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 2: you know. 404 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, they were you know, once they got 405 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 1: to basic training, they were bullied. They were obviously the 406 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 1: object of ire from their you know, drill sergeants and 407 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,439 Speaker 1: stuff like that, but they were also bullied you know, 408 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:23,199 Speaker 1: physically and you know, emotionally within their you know, platoons, 409 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,640 Speaker 1: and they didn't have any understanding a lot of times 410 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: of even what was going on when this is happening. 411 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, that writer Hamilton Gregory recounted the story of one 412 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 2: recruit who couldn't tell you what state he was from, 413 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 2: didn't know his left from his right, wasn't aware that 414 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 2: the US was at war. I mean, like really profoundly 415 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 2: cognitively challenged men in some cases who had no business 416 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 2: being in the military. Not just because they were potentially 417 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 2: in danger or most certainly in danger in a lot 418 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 2: of cases, but they also posed a danger to other 419 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 2: people in their platoon as well because they didn't know 420 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 2: what they were doing. 421 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, they did have the special training companies 422 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 1: set up like you know McNamara had envisioned, you know 423 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: from the tip from those Marines, but a lot of times, 424 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 1: you know, that didn't work. And even when they failed 425 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 1: to get through basic training, they would just recycle them 426 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 1: back through until they pass or just say you passed. 427 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. Those recruiters also they used something called administrative acceptance, 428 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 2: that's what it was, where they were given the power 429 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,360 Speaker 2: to say, I think you're flunking this test on purpose, 430 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 2: so you're actually going to be admitted anyway. They could 431 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 2: use that to assign or to get these cognitively challenged 432 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 2: men into the army, basically saying like I think you're 433 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 2: smarter than your test reflects, right, So there was just 434 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 2: no way that they weren't going to make it into 435 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 2: the army and then through basic training, and I mean 436 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 2: once they got through basic training, I think you said 437 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 2: half or more of them were shipped off to Vietnam, 438 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,439 Speaker 2: and I think the majority of them ended up on 439 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 2: the front lines. And the statistics about what happened to 440 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 2: these men in Vietnam are just shocking, especially when you 441 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 2: compare them to the statistics for just the military of 442 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 2: the Army as a whole. 443 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, four hundred and seventy eight of them were killed 444 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,919 Speaker 1: in Vietnam, which was a fatality rate three times higher 445 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: than your average soldier. Thirteen hundred those were killed by 446 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: mines in booby traps, because a lot of times they 447 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 1: were like, just put one of those guys up front 448 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: and if they step on the land mine, then it's 449 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: no big loss for us. Twenty thousand of them were injured, 450 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 1: including five hundred amputees, which is again at a higher 451 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: rate than other gis. 452 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I saw like fifty something thousand people 453 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 2: were killed. Americans were killed in Vietnam, so like the 454 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 2: new standards men made up like ten percent of that, which, yeah, 455 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 2: I mean, that's just crazy. There are also like a 456 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 2: lot of horror stories about these poor guys and just 457 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 2: what happened to them over there. There was one who 458 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 2: Hamilton Gregory wrote about he would change the names of 459 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,719 Speaker 2: these men, and he changed one of their names to Jerry. 460 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 2: And Jerry was on night guard duty at his posts 461 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 2: in Vietnam, and he was told that if he saw 462 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 2: anybody coming up to the fort that he was to 463 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 2: say halt and tell them to say who they were, 464 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 2: to identify themselves right, and even this basic order, Jerry 465 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 2: couldn't follow it because when he saw somebody moving in 466 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 2: the jungle, he just started opening fire and it turned 467 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 2: out it was an officer from his camp and he 468 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 2: killed them. He accidentally killed this officer because he just 469 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,120 Speaker 2: started shooting because he didn't know how to follow orders. 470 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 1: You know why guys like you and I aren't fit 471 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: for the military. Why because you had a hard time 472 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: coming with the word order. Yeah, what's it called with that? Sara? 473 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 1: Jealous about the thing he wants us to do. 474 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, the instruction. But like anger instruction, anng re instruction. 475 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: I think that's the definition of orders, an angry instruction. 476 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:04,880 Speaker 2: I think that too. 477 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: They also and this is you know, it gets even 478 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:12,880 Speaker 1: sadder new Standardsmen were referred for psychiatric evaluation ten times 479 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: as frequently as other troops. And you know, they were 480 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,400 Speaker 1: obviously going through a lot of anxiety, a lot of depression, 481 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: extreme agitation, and some of them frequently attempted suicide or 482 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: you know when a wall or attack their filler soldiers, 483 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 1: which all of a sudden you're in the stockade. You're 484 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: getting a conviction and a dishonorable discharge, which we're going 485 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: to talk more about. 486 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a big issue. But I mean I 487 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,400 Speaker 2: saw the a wall thing described as like, I mean, imagine, 488 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 2: if everybody's really mean to you, beats you up, and 489 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 2: you just don't understand why, of course you're going to 490 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 2: want to get away from it. If you just can't 491 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 2: make sense of that, heads or tails, right, So a wall, 492 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:54,919 Speaker 2: I mean there was a pretty good reason for a 493 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 2: lot of these guys to go a wall. And again, 494 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 2: I think Private piles experience in basic training was like 495 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 2: pretty true to life for what happened to some of 496 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 2: these guys. And you know, Private Pile chose kill and 497 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,120 Speaker 2: then die himself rather than a wall, but a lot 498 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 2: of them chose a wall instead. 499 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 1: What a movie? 500 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, man, that movie is just amazing. 501 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: We're talking about The Full Metal Jacket. By the way, 502 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: just in case people are like, what movie? 503 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 2: Yes, so good, good call man. 504 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: The Great Stanley Kubrick. Should we take our second break? 505 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:31,439 Speaker 2: I think we should. 506 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: Yes, all right, We'll be right back and finish up 507 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: with Project one hundred thousand. 508 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 2: So I said, there are a lot of horror stories 509 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 2: and there are a plenty for the McNamara boys or 510 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:14,439 Speaker 2: Project one hundred thousand men. What's much harder to find 511 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 2: are positive stories, like hopeful stories. I could find two, 512 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,120 Speaker 2: but it turned out they were actually the same guy. 513 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, this isn't a silver lining situation. 514 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 2: No, definitely not. But the guy his name was Mike Sanchez, 515 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,160 Speaker 2: not his real name, and he had two different experiences 516 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,880 Speaker 2: while he was in Vietnam, and both of them were 517 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 2: because he was essentially adopted by his commanding officers at 518 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 2: both of his posts. 519 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, which I mean, that's still not a silver lining, 520 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: but at least there were some compassionate officers who took 521 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: these guys under their wing and were like, I'm going 522 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,400 Speaker 1: to try and see that this kid doesn't go home 523 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: in a pine box. So thankful for that obviously. But 524 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 1: one of the things that happened was a soldier like this, 525 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: and you know, apparently it happened to others. Is there 526 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 1: they were given assignments sort of under the wing of 527 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: that officer, like maybe be their driver. And in this case, 528 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,919 Speaker 1: this guy was assigned to drive an officer but couldn't 529 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 1: drive and didn't have the capacity to learn how to drive, 530 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: so that instead of just you know, sticking him back 531 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: on the front line, this officer drove himself and just 532 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 1: had this guy sit next to him in the passenger seat. 533 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I mean, like, that's really taking a soldier 534 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 2: under your wing, Like, yeah, that is just straight up 535 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 2: protecting him. That was after That was the second part 536 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 2: of Mike Sanchez's stint in Vietnam. The first part of it, 537 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 2: he actually distinguished himself in battle. And this is actually 538 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 2: pretty similar to Forrest Gump if you think about it. 539 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 1: Well, I think this might have been directly inspired by that. 540 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:53,719 Speaker 1: That was my feeling. 541 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 2: Okay, So Mike Sanchez when he first got to Vietnam, 542 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 2: his first commanding officer also took him under his wing 543 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 2: to protect him and was like, you have no business 544 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 2: being here. I'm going to see to it that you 545 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 2: make it out of here alive. And Mike Sanchez was 546 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 2: the kind of guy who just if you were nice 547 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 2: to him, if you were kind to him, if you 548 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 2: treated him with respect, he would he would loyal to 549 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 2: you to the end, like you just captured his heart. 550 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 2: And that happened with his first commanding officer. He felt 551 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 2: deeply loyal to them, and they ended up in a firefight. 552 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 1: Together, right, Yeah, and kind of just like out of 553 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: the movie Forrest Gump. The officer ended up in big trouble. 554 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: Mike couldn't find him. Everyone said he's back there, he 555 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 1: got hit, but no one was going back to get him. 556 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: So that's what this guy did. He ran back, ran back, 557 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: you know, foregoing his own safety, called out for him, 558 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: found him wounded he couldn't move, and carried him to 559 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: safety through some serious, you know, bullet fire and was 560 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: got the Silver Star for that action. 561 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, isn't that cool? 562 00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: It's pretty great. 563 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, Mike Santez, he's just one of those rare, hopeful 564 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 2: or nice stories. He actually went on to become a barber, 565 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 2: which was his dream because his brother was a barber, 566 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 2: so he got to go work with them after the army. 567 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, and again, don't bother googling because his name is 568 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: not Mike Sanchez. 569 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 2: No, but you can find an account of this by 570 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 2: the second CEO who he was the driver for. His 571 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 2: name was Jim Bracewell. He wrote an account about Mike Sanchez. 572 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 2: It's worth reading, for sure. 573 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: There was another one. This is from Dave Rus. One 574 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: of these guys, his name was Elmer. I don't know 575 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: if that's his real name or not in this case 576 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: but he was apparently just a real had a real 577 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 1: talent for keeping things super clean and orderly, and he 578 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: was assigned his assignment was to clean a sick bay 579 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 1: on a big navy ship, and he may not have 580 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,479 Speaker 1: understood like what sterill meant and things like that, but 581 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: he really knew how to get stuff done and keep 582 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: the place clean and sterile. And he apparently had a 583 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 1: pretty rare positive experience, and that everyone loved this guy 584 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: and everyone thought he did a great job. And that's 585 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: sort of like, that's sort of what I was thinking earlier, 586 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: is you know, they knew so little about different intelligences 587 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: and things back then, and they probably could have found 588 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: a lot of roles that might have been suitable for 589 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: some of these guys. Instead, they were just like, we 590 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: want warm bodies on the front line because they're basically expendable. 591 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, like basically booby trap catchers essentially. 592 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. 593 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 2: So yeah, those stories are very rare. For the most part, 594 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 2: the Project one hundred thousand recruits suffered greatly, and not 595 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 2: just in battle, but also at the hands of their 596 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 2: own platoon members, Like they just had it horrible all 597 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 2: around in a lot of cases, and so it's not 598 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 2: much of a surprise that when they were studied after 599 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 2: they left Vietnam and came back to the United States, 600 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 2: they had a much harder time than even the average 601 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 2: Vietnam VET who had a hard time themselves. These guys 602 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 2: had it even harder. They were apparently significantly more likely 603 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 2: to suffer PTSD compared to other vets, and that they 604 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 2: had harder time holding on a job, they had a 605 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 2: harder time with everyday living, and that they were more 606 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 2: likely to experience homelessness, drug addiction, and suicide than even 607 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 2: the average Vietnam VET. 608 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, which, you know, the big thumb in the alley 609 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 1: in all this is it was kind of posed as now, 610 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 1: these guys are going to be so much better off 611 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 1: after serving their country in the army. YEP, They're going 612 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: to get better jobs, They're going to you know, work 613 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: themselves up into a maybe lower middle class situation when 614 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: they came from poverty in a lot of cases. And 615 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: they've studied this when compared to even when compared to 616 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 1: other low IQ Americans of the same age. Yeah, this 617 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: has been the veterans had worse financial outcomes. There was 618 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:57,719 Speaker 1: a study in the eighties that found that ten percent 619 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: of low IQ veterans were unemployed compared with only three 620 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 1: percent of low IQ non veterans, and earn less money 621 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 1: an average of eighteen thousand dollars a year compared to 622 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,959 Speaker 1: twenty four thousand dollars a year for non veterans. 623 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 2: Yes, and so again, just to clarify, they were supposed 624 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 2: to have a better life, like you said, after the 625 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 2: war than and they had a worse life. And one reason, 626 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 2: a huge reason why is something you touched on earlier. 627 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 2: A lot of them, I think something like half of 628 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 2: them were discharged under conditions other than honorable. And if 629 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 2: you have anything but an honorable discharge from the military, 630 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 2: you are stigmatized for the rest of your life. Not 631 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 2: only will businesses typically not hire you, there's plenty of 632 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 2: businesses who won't. The military itself, like the VA, will 633 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 2: help you less than it will help other vets, Like 634 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 2: it's harder to get access to healthcare and to job 635 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 2: counseling and to all the things that somebody like a 636 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 2: Project one hundred thousand recruit would need after they got 637 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 2: back to America, that was shut down to half of 638 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 2: them because they were discharged dishonorably. 639 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's just so shameful. There was at 640 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,879 Speaker 1: least one guy that was a recruiter who I guess 641 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: felt pretty bad about taking part in this. Is a 642 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: veteran named Bill Daniel, and he, you know, put a 643 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:19,919 Speaker 1: lot of thought into this after the war and said, 644 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,720 Speaker 1: you know what I'm gonna They called it bad paper 645 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 1: if you got a dishonorable discharge, and so he wanted 646 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 1: to appeal as many of these bad paper discharges as 647 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 1: he could, and he was successful in four hundred cases. 648 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: You know, one hundred and eighty thousand of them were 649 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: dishonorably discharged, So four hundred isn't much, but you know, 650 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: this for Bill Daniel to take, you know, to spend 651 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,359 Speaker 1: his time and his life getting four hundred of these 652 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 1: guys cleared is pretty admirable. 653 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. And then one more thing about the bad paper, 654 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 2: the dishonorable discharges. Apparently, among Project one hundred thousand recruits, 655 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:02,360 Speaker 2: the main reason that that was given for their dishonorable 656 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 2: discharge was that they were unsuitable for the military, and 657 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 2: that was the case from the outset. The military brought 658 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 2: them on on purpose anyway, and then spit them out 659 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 2: the other end, saying you should have never been in 660 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 2: the military in the first place, and now here's the 661 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:19,719 Speaker 2: stigma for you to carry around for the rest of 662 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:20,280 Speaker 2: your life. 663 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:25,239 Speaker 1: Yeah. Man, So did Robert McNamara feel bad about all this, 664 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: because he's certainly somebody who, maybe more so than most 665 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 1: secretaries of Defense, looked back a lot on his life 666 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 1: and he wrote about it, and it was a memoir 667 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 1: called In Retrospect colon the Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam. 668 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,320 Speaker 1: He also very famously was in the Great Aarra Morris's 669 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,720 Speaker 1: documentary The Fog of War, where he talked at length 670 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: about things that he did right and wrong. So surely 671 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:50,880 Speaker 1: he looked back on Project one hundred thousand is a 672 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 1: big mistake. 673 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 2: Right, No, No, I could tell by your tone that 674 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,840 Speaker 2: you knew that, But he didn't. He actually did apologize 675 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,840 Speaker 2: for things like his involvement in pushing for escalating the 676 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 2: war in Vietnam. Like he he wasn't one of those guys. 677 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 2: He's like, no, I never did anything wrong, You're all wrong. 678 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 2: He soul searched, like you said, more than most other 679 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 2: people in his position, But he never apologized for Project 680 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 2: one hundred thousand. And I don't know what that says 681 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 2: like on his face you would suspect, well, he really 682 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 2: was a true believer. He didn't think it was a 683 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 2: like he wasn't doing anything nefarious. But I mean, these 684 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 2: guys who were like planning and carrying out the Vietnam War, 685 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 2: you had to be nefarius to be doing that, you know. 686 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 2: So how much credit can you give him? How much 687 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 2: benefit of the doubt do you give him? 688 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. I mean the vet that wrote 689 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 1: that book, Hamilton Gregory, he himself was like, yeah, you 690 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 1: know what, I think he actually had good intentions. I 691 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 1: think he really did think he could coach them up 692 00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 1: into a better life and that the military would be 693 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: genuinely good for them. And then it was just a 694 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: tragic misjudgment and not just an attempt to you know, 695 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,359 Speaker 1: supply the front lines with warm bodies. But you know 696 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 1: that's it may be generous. I don't know. 697 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, other people like the guy who wrote We Were Soldiers, 698 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 2: Joe Galloway, He was embedded with the seventh Cavalry in 699 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 2: battle with in Vietnam. He actually was one of the 700 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,839 Speaker 2: rare civilians decorated with the Bronze Star for valor during 701 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 2: a battle. He was just a war. Corresponding in he 702 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,840 Speaker 2: was like, no, this is unforgivable. Yeah, he essentially said 703 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,719 Speaker 2: in a column the day after McNamara died, like just 704 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 2: from Project one hundred thousand, he's on his way to 705 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:38,960 Speaker 2: hell basically. 706 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 1: Yep. I mean that's what he said. Not I'm not 707 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,319 Speaker 1: saying he's on the side hell right. 708 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm paraphrasing too, but that's that's basically what 709 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:49,880 Speaker 2: he said. Yeah, and I think a lot of people 710 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,959 Speaker 2: agree with him for that too. You got anything else? 711 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 1: I got nothing else? Looking forward to moving on to 712 00:37:58,600 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: more positive stories. 713 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. Who was the person that suggested it? 714 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 1: David Bryant's mom. 715 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 2: Thanks David Bryant's mom. We appreciate that that was a 716 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,799 Speaker 2: good idea. I'm glad we learned about it. I'm glad 717 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 2: we could tell everybody else about it because it's not 718 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 2: a very well known part of American history. Totally, Chuck said, totally. 719 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 2: He just triggered listener mail, this. 720 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 1: Is about R Shorty. Can you not have a name? Hi? Guys, 721 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,759 Speaker 1: my second time emailing. Just listened to can you Not 722 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:32,439 Speaker 1: Have a Name and had to email about a most 723 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 1: unusual name I've come across in my fifty plus years 724 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 1: of working with the public, thirty in the restaurant industry, 725 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 1: sixteen doing vacation rules, and now four and a half 726 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,239 Speaker 1: years owning a flower shop. Nice About seven or eight 727 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 1: years ago, a customer came in of Asian descent and 728 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,720 Speaker 1: gave me his credit card that showed me his surname 729 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 1: as Why Why. I commented, I said, what an unusual 730 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 1: last name, and he asked if he was if it 731 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: was a common Asian name, and he said, actually, my 732 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,440 Speaker 1: last name is only Why. But American Express does not 733 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:03,759 Speaker 1: accept the last name composed of just one letter, so 734 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: I had to add the second why well, just to 735 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,239 Speaker 1: get the credit card. Also, my sister and I are 736 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 1: both baby boomers, and we were not given middle names, 737 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:13,759 Speaker 1: so we could take our maiden name as our middle 738 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 1: name once we got married and not have to drop 739 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:16,200 Speaker 1: that middle name. 740 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:17,480 Speaker 2: Oh I never thought about that. 741 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, worked for my sister, but I'm still single and 742 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 1: looking for a man with a short last name. 743 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 2: What's her name? 744 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:29,440 Speaker 1: So this is Jane Trahanofski, who is the owner of 745 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,160 Speaker 1: Levon's Florals in Newport Beach, California. And I even went 746 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 1: to the website. It's like a lovely flower shop business 747 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,920 Speaker 1: and so you know, pop in and see Jane. If 748 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,280 Speaker 1: you you're a boomer with a short last name. 749 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:44,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, you could do a lot worse than going to 750 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,479 Speaker 2: Newport Beach for a day or two. Totally well, thanks 751 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,239 Speaker 2: a lot, Jane. We appreciate that. We love anecdotes and 752 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 2: stories about stuff that have to do with episodes we've 753 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,759 Speaker 2: recently recorded, and if you have one of those, you 754 00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 2: can talk to us via email. Send it off to 755 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:04,680 Speaker 2: Stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. 756 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,719 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 757 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 758 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:13,960 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.