WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 175 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:03.120 All media. 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:05.760 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:09.440 you know this is a compilation episode, So every episode 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.719 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.560 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.040 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:21.000 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:22.759 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:24.960 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:30.080 Hello, and welcome. Today could happen here podcast the world 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:33.120 falling apart, and its mostly just about that at the minute, 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:35.159 but we do sometimes talk about how to put it 0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:38.360 back together as well. Joining me today is Garrison Davis. 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:38.760 Hi. 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:43.080 Garrison, Hello, Hi, And we're on the falling apart theme, 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:45.080 and I think that we've been on that one quite 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:47.640 a lot that last few weeks, but today we are 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:51.919 specifically talking about the what I'm going to call the 0:00:51.960 --> 0:00:57.000 rendition of non US nationals by the Trump administration over 0:00:57.040 --> 0:01:00.680 the last week. The reason I'm calling it gets rendition 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:03.000 and not deportation is because these people aren't being sent 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:05.959 back to the countries they're from. They are being sent 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:09.440 to El Salvador. Specifically, they're being sent to a place 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:14.520 called second. So the Trump administration has attempted to send 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:18.920 three hundred people who it accuses of being members of 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:21.800 a foreign terrorist organization. We're going to get to how 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:26.800 they get there under the Alien Enemies Act to a 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:29.959 prison in El Salvador where they will be detained for 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:33.200 a year at the expense of the United States. 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:34.160 We're going to. 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:37.039 Break down exactly how we got there over the course 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:41.280 of this episode. So, the Trump administration has accused these 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:46.440 people of being members of two different gangs. The majority 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:49.960 of them, there's two hundred and thirty eight people are 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:53.680 accused of being members of trend de Ragua. Trindragua is 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:57.080 a Venezuelan gang that the Trump administration recently declared a 0:01:57.080 --> 0:02:02.520 foreign terrorist organization. Another twenty three it's accusing of being 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:07.480 members of MS thirteen, which is a Salvadoran gang. The 0:02:07.520 --> 0:02:12.040 Trump administration use something called the Alien Enemies Act to 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:15.959 remove these people. The Alien Enemies Act we actually spoke 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:17.919 about it in November of last year when we were 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:20.639 looking at provisions of US law that the Trump administration 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:24.000 could use for its mass deportation gender. This is when 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:27.200 we spoke about the Trump administration in the past has 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:31.280 been quite good at finding obscure provisions of the United 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:34.720 States law to exclude migrants. You can hear my whole 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:37.440 series about Title forty two on that. That's kind of 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:40.720 the paramount example. Right. The Alien Enemies Act is a 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:42.800 two hundred and twenty six year old piece of legislation. 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:46.359 The last time it was used was to inter Japanese 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:49.560 people during the Second World War. Right, that's a pretty 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:53.040 shameful part of United States history, and it's great that 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:56.760 we're going back there. So who are the enemies in 0:02:56.800 --> 0:02:59.320 this case? Right, it's generally, like I should probably point out, 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:03.360 the Alien Enemy Act is intended for like the people 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:06.440 you were at war with. Right, So, if the United 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:09.520 States is at war with let's say Canada, and there 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:12.440 are Canadian citizens in the United States and people who 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:15.639 have dual citizenship with Canada, and those people that are 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:19.440 individuals within that group are suspected to be spies or 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:22.720 suspected to be like serving the interest in Canada not 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:26.720 the United States, that they could be excluded or detained 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:29.480 under the Alien Enemies Act or sent out of the country, 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:34.040 as it's the case here, and as we saw in 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:37.880 this instance, there is very little recourse to appeal. Right, 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:41.080 This isn't like a deportation hearing or an asylum hearing 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:43.680 where you have a lawyer representing you, where you have 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:46.720 even a hearing. Right. These people were rounded up and 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:49.240 booted out the country in very short order. 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:52.720 Yeah, and like with or without due process, Like we 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:55.880 should not be black begging people and sending them to 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:59.400 the like Al Salvador Labor prison, right, Like this is 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:03.280 like just doing this at all, even with du process 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:04.480 would already be horrifying. 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:04.800 Yeah. 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:07.560 The fact that they're just doing it like without even 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:11.040 any like court process entirely and like trying to like 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:14.800 bypass that just adds like another level to an already 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:18.640 like horrifying and you know, evil and shameful action. 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:21.960 Yeah, it's terrible. I want to define some of the 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:25.800 categories here. I want to start with Tendgua. Spanish understanders 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:29.560 will will notice the word trend meaning train. That's because 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:33.839 they came out of construction unions who are building trains 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:37.320 as part of a Venezuelan infrastructure project in Aragua, which 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:41.000 is part of Venezuela. There are other Venezuelan gangs. Trendliano 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:43.320 is the other one that springs to mind, which has 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:45.680 come from the same place, and that's have similar names, 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:49.440 but just people should understand that they're different organizations. They 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:53.560 also have a strong presence of Venezuelan prisons. They have 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:56.080 in the past been accused of doing violence on behalf 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:58.400 of the Venezuelan state. By twenty twenty four, I thought 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:01.760 to blame them for the protests after his election. People 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:04.680 remember that election was widely seen as fraudulent, and I 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:06.919 covered that in my series on the Dariant Gap. If 0:05:06.920 --> 0:05:10.120 people want to learn more about Venezuelan politics of migration 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:13.880 to the United States. In twenty twenty four, Biden names 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:18.320 that I were a transnational criminal organization, and then Trump 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:22.359 named them a foreign terrorist organization. He labeled several cartels 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:24.560 as ftos as well. At the time, there's a lot 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:27.320 of speculation about why was it to allow for like 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:30.839 drone strikes or co operations. I think we're now seeing 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:34.560 that this was part of this large employ of deportation. 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:38.720 Yeah, because like quote unquote terrorists had even less quote 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:42.360 unquote rights than quote unquote criminals. Yes, right, Like it's 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:45.840 it's like like the like the triangle of like which 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:49.320 which deplorable class has the least about of rights. Terrorists 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:51.880 are always like the ones with the least. 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:54.080 Yeah, And we've been doing that for twenty odd years 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:57.520 now with Tiamo Bay and renditions to Egypt and Syria 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:00.640 and other places. In this case, people are being sent 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:04.000 to Sikot, which is this prison in El Salvador sometimes. 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:11.720 Can you spell that, yeah, Cecot centrocult Yeah, sea Cott. Yes. 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:18.200 It stands for Terrorism Confinement, Terrorism detention Center. It is 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:21.080 largely referred to as a super prison. Right. It was 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:24.239 built in El salbad Or by part of his Iron 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:26.280 Fist would be the way you translate. It's iron Fist 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:30.440 policy against gangs and against crime, and it has been 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:35.640 widely condemned for human rights abuses. People are crammed into 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:38.640 cells with more than one hundred people, but there are 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:41.440 fewer bunks than there are prisoners, right, so they can't 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:43.320 even all lie down at the same time. The bunks 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:47.240 don't have bedding, they're just flat like metal sheets. They're 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:49.840 four high, so you have to climb over other people 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:53.000 to sleep. For more than one hundred prisoners, there are 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:56.880 two open toilets. That's the only access to a bathroom 0:06:56.920 --> 0:06:59.440 that you have. They might be allowed out for half 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:01.919 an hour each day. They're not allowed to communicate with 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:05.440 their families or the outside world. They're forced to shave 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:08.320 their heads and they all wear white. The lights are 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:11.120 left on all day. As I said that, they're provided 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:14.320 with no bedding, no contact with the outside world, very 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:17.200 little access to anything other than standing in that cell. 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:19.440 There's two bibles in each sat. It's the only sort 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:23.520 of entertainment they're allowed. It just sounds like a torture camp. Like, yeah, 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:28.760 this is completely inhumane, right, It's horrific. And for a 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:30.840 couple of years now, bu Kelly has been doing like 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:34.600 these media tours the of SICOT like using it to 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:39.120 generate content. It's very much designed to generate this image 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:41.120 of like, this is what will happen to quote unquote, 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:42.480 what will happen to you if you're a quote unquote 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:44.960 in a gang. It's sort of been used to promote 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:48.480 his image of someone who's taking an iron fist to gangs. 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:52.080 And as we saw when these people were sent to 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:56.880 us ABAD or this tendency to use I don't know 0:07:56.920 --> 0:07:59.600 what you would call it, incarceration as a way of 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:03.880 making content, it was was very much the case here, right, Yeah, I'm. 0:08:03.760 --> 0:08:04.560 Going to break for ads. 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:07.280 When we come back, we will be consuming content that 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:19.920 is people being stripped of their human rights and we 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:22.040 are back, Garrison, Do you want to go ahead and 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:25.520 play this? And so the the tweet in question, the 0:08:25.720 --> 0:08:29.920 zet in question, it's by Naibuke, the president of Bel Salvador. Right, 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:31.720 should I read out? 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:32.320 Yeah? 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:34.080 I think you should. I think it's worth noting that 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:36.800 like this style of propaganda close to the mirrors a 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:39.240 lot of what like DHS and the Trump administration is 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:41.440 doing on their official accounts. So a lot of a 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:45.800 lot of the like mimified content creation format and like 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:50.719 aesthetics being used to just display like torture and deportations 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:54.880 and human arts abuses is very common among government accounts 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:57.920 in the States right now. It's pretty pretty horrifying to 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:00.320 look at. And this this kind of follows this suit 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:05.440 and is possibly even more bleak. Yeah, but yeah, we 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:08.880 should read read this whole message and then and then 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:12.319 we'll price skip around on the video and talk about 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:12.920 what we're seeing. 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:15.199 Yeah, So I'll just read it obviously, you know, to 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:18.280 understand I'm quoting it hit early from him today. The 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:20.880 first two hundred and thirty eight members of the Venezuelan 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:25.080 criminal organization trend Raguas arrived in our country. They were 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:29.000 immediately transferred to sikor the Terrorism Confinement Center for a 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:33.040 period of one year. Parentheses renewable. The United States will 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:34.880 pay a very low fee for them, but a high 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:38.400 one for US over time. These actions, combined with the 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:41.800 production already being generated by more than forty thousand inmates 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:46.280 engaged in various workshops and labor under the Zero Idleness program, 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:49.640 will help make our prison system self sustainable. As of today, 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:53.040 it costs two hundred billion per year. On this occasion, 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:56.880 the US has sent us twenty three MS thirteen members 0:09:56.960 --> 0:10:00.600 wanted by Salvadory Injustice, including two ring leaders. One of 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:03.120 them is a member of the criminal organization's highest structure. 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:06.800 This will help us finalize intelligence gathering and go after 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:09.720 the last remnants of MS thirty, including its former and 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:14.760 new members, money, weapons, drugs, hideouts, collaborators, and sponsors. As always, 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:17.760 you continue advancing in a fight against organized crime, but 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:21.079 this time we're also helping our allies, making our prisonessest 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:23.760 them selves sustainable and obtaining vital intelligence to make our 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:26.560 country an even safer place. All in a single action. 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:30.040 They God blessed Sarbador, and may God bless the United States. 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:32.960 I should probably just add that the US sent three 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:36.640 million dollars to pay for these six million dollars I'm 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:38.960 sorry to pay for the three hundred prisoners that intended 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:39.360 to send. 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:44.079 The Zero Idleness program is like one of the most 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:47.040 sinister things I've read recently. 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:48.640 Yeah, I mean you could put out of a George 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:51.680 Orwell or like a old Huxley or something right, and 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:52.760 it wouldn't sound out of. 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:56.920 It's even like you know, it's almost cliche now to 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:58.920 point like German work camps. 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:02.920 But like yeah, I mean come on, yeah, yeah, that 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:04.120 we're doing it again. 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:07.160 So yeah, we'll probably play a clip of the music 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:08.720 and then I'm going to skip around on the video. 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:17.679 You can just talk about what we're seeing here. It's first, 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:20.199 we have a shot of an airport with three different 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:24.280 planes and people getting rounded up and pushed on in 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:28.120 single file. It has like this like action movie type 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:30.040 music lines of soldiers. 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:35.920 So as as the. 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:38.280 People getting loaded on the plane, they're getting like forced 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:42.280 forced down. There's like people with like guns, police military 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:47.600 like manhandling people pushing their heads down, physically removing clothing. 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:50.360 Yeah, they're showing their tattoos there, right, that's what they're 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:52.400 pulling up his shirt. Yeah. 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:54.400 But like even the way that they just like walk 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:57.240 around with these people like like like forcing their heads 0:11:57.240 --> 0:11:59.439 almost to like their concrete as they make them shuffle 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:11.319 on the ground, like basic dehumanization. Shows them getting transported 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:12.240 onto buses. 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:17.720 Yeah, so they said they're arriving at SECOD now sort 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:21.679 of bright white, very sterile facility. Now they're being forced 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:24.800 onto their knees, yeah, and shaved. 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:28.640 Getting their beards shaved, heads shaved, getting shackled, all while 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:30.440 being forced onto their knees on the ground. 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:34.160 Then the cops doing this are all wearing I guess balaklavas. 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:36.400 I would describe them as face masks and hats. 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:39.200 Yeah, all of all of the military police officials are 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:42.599 trying to hide their identity as they you know, publicly 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:45.679 display the actions that they're doing, as when they're you know, 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:48.160 shaving and holding people's heads up for the camera. 0:12:48.360 --> 0:12:48.560 Yeah. 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:58.120 So it it's it's a lot of that kind of stuff. 0:12:58.120 --> 0:12:58.400 You see. 0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:01.599 You see them like pushing some pushing people all in 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:05.319 matching white clothes in single file into cells. 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:07.880 Yeah, and this is the cell. So we spoke about before. 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:10.680 We will include this link in the in the sources. 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:13.440 It's basically just three minutes of torture porn. Like that's like, 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:15.760 that's what that's what they're doing. 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:18.679 I guess, yeah, it's it's it's pretty bleak, honestly, Like, I. 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:20.320 Don't know what else to say about it, besides like 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:22.760 it's it's just it's just like channeling pure evil, Like 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:27.640 I like, it's it's I there's nothing else to say. 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:30.400 Yeah, there's I mean, that's I don't know how anyone 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:33.280 can watch that and think good. So we should talk 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:36.199 about how they're identifying these people, and we should talk 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:38.840 about the process by which they were sent there. ICE 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:41.000 policy says a person could be deemed a gang member 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:46.240 if they office a note to quote gang membership identification criteria. 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:49.280 One of the criteria that they seem to be using 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:53.680 in this instance is their tattoos. So there are some 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:56.760 gangs that have a process of tattooing to enter the gang. 0:13:56.880 --> 0:14:00.600 Right MS thirteen Mara Salvastructure, it's what they're mess stands 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:04.480 for being one of them. These like Mara Central American 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:09.360 gangs have tended to use that in the past. This 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:13.320 isn't really something that happens with Trend de Ragua as 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:15.800 far as I'm aware of. Some people they've pointed to 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:20.080 tattoos of trains in a document they get found from 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:22.800 the Texas Department of Public Safety. They're pointing to stars 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:26.760 as evidence that people were part of Trend de Ragua. 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:28.760 So I remember where Trend de Dragua does not have 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:32.360 a policy of tattooing people specifically, because this is a 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:36.160 thing that has been used by law enforcement to identify members, 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:38.920 right like, it would be silly to keep doing that 0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:42.320 once once it's become so clear that the state uses that. 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:45.520 So the one sort of case that I've seen legal 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:48.120 documents on of these people, the one name we have 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:50.760 one of these people who's been sent is a man 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:52.360 named Hersirees Barrios. 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:53.600 He was a. 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:57.880 Footballer professional football in Venezuela who protested against my daughter regime, 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:02.400 was tortured and detained a result I've spoken to. Probably 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:06.120 I would imagine thousands of Venezuela and migrants. Right again, 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:08.080 I would like you to listen to my series on 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:11.120 Italian Gap if you haven't put a lot into it. 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:15.280 All of these people have stories of watching people be shot, 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:19.680 the brutal repression of protest, state violence, economic collapse, persecution 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:24.640 for supporting the opposition in the country, right, and this 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:27.640 is one of those stories. The criteria that they used 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:31.880 to identify him were a tattoo which had a football 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:33.720 with a crown over the top and then the word 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:38.560 Dios God in English underneath. Rais Barrios' lawyer says that 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:41.800 this is an homage the logo of Reel Madrid, his 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:44.560 favorite football club. They have claimed that his evidence of 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:46.880 gang membership. That's what the government is claiming here. The 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:50.920 other criteria that they used is a picture of him 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:54.680 throwing up the horns. I guess which I believe it 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:56.760 means I love you in sign language, I'm not sure 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:58.880 if I think an urban legend or of that's the case, 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:01.960 and there are obviously different languages. But this is a 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:04.920 hand gesture. It's especially common in the Spanish speaking world. 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:09.080 If you're not familiar, I have my little finger and 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:12.880 my index finger extended and my two other fingers curled 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:14.320 up as if I was making it fist. 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:17.080 Almost like almost like a spider man hand symbol. 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:19.280 I guess sure, I'm not familiar, but if you say 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:21.840 so to visually reference for people, if you are making 0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:24.840 a little cow like a bulk with your hands, sure 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:26.680 you would be doing your shadow puppeting. 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:29.680 It's very common. Like, yes, it's a very typical hands. 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:32.920 It's a thing that people do when they're taking photos, 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:34.760 like I've even seen it, like when you know, if 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:36.840 there's if I'm working with a photographer and they're snapping 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:40.000 photos of larger groups of people, people just do it, 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:41.560 like just like people do the peace sign. You know, 0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:43.720 it's a thing to do with your hands. Those are 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:46.200 two criteria they use. So I should point out that 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:50.480 none of these people have been accused or convicted of 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:53.760 a crime, either in the United States or in El Salvador. Right. 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:57.520 Even if they had been accused of a crime, even 0:16:57.560 --> 0:16:59.640 convicted of the crime, the United States is very unclear 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:02.040 what legal basis they would be to then detain them 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:04.800 in Thel Salvador, right, Like the United States doesn't have 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:07.400 a system whereby we can send people to penal colonies. 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:11.360 At the time of writing, this has been challenged in court. Right, 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:15.080 a district court judge attempted to block the A district 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:19.080 court judge did block these removals. Now he actually blocked 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:24.360 them before the people had arrived in El Salvador. However, 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:28.359 despite this, the planes didn't turn around. And I'm just 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:30.760 going to quote directly from what the judge said here 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:33.439 quote any plane containing these folks and it's going to 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:35.080 take off or is in the air, needs to be 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:39.160 returned to the United States. And then it's another quote later. 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:40.960 This is something you need to make sure he is 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:45.399 complied with immediately. This didn't happen, right. The planes went 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:49.560 from the US torn d Salvador. They didn't stop even 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:54.080 when the judge had given its order for them to stop. Now, 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:57.560 normally in illegal proceeding such as this, right that the 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:00.359 government or one of the parties may not agree with 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:03.119 the findings of the judge, and they may choose to 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:06.399 appeal it right, that's very normal. You still comply with 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:09.520 the order, then appeal it right. You don't just keep 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:11.920 doing whatever you feel like doing because you don't think 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:14.480 the judge was right. Like, that's in theory, not how 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:18.800 this works. Now in practice, what means does a judge 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:21.840 have to force the executive to listen to him? 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:23.119 I don't know. 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:26.640 We're not seeing any of them on display at the minute. 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:30.760 The government has cited various reasons for ignoring the ruling. 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:33.840 One of them, Press Secureary Caroline leave It claimed that 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:38.600 there was quote no lawful basis for the ruling. Go 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:40.760 back to my previous statement about how you're supposed to 0:18:40.760 --> 0:18:43.600 appeal things. They also claimed in court that a verbal 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:46.320 order is not the same as a written one. That's 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:49.160 not something that's generally understood to be the case, and 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:53.680 that because the flights were over international water, the order 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:56.480 did not apply. This was then part of the foreign 0:18:56.520 --> 0:19:00.320 policy powers reserved to the president. That last one is 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:04.639 particularly worrying. It's you effectively don't have your rights in 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:09.320 international waters role like humans don't have rights in international waters. 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:13.680 Yeah, it's just allowing the US government or the EUSt 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:15.800 government trying to say that it's allowed to do whatever 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:19.080 it wants if the action is being taken or not, 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:23.080 like immediately on US soil or other foreign soil. 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:24.320 Yeah. 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:26.119 So we're going to take another break, and when we 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:28.439 come back, we will talk about their response to this 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:29.719 judges ruling. 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:42.320 All right, and we are back. 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:48.880 So Tramp's response to this Judge Boseberg's ruling was I'm 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:52.120 just going to read this is a true social post 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:57.240 aka a truth quote. This radical left nudatic of a judge, 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:01.080 a troublemaker and agitator who was sadly appointed by Barak Hussein. 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:03.480 Obama was not elected President. 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:04.320 M Dash. 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:06.359 I'm not going to say when it's capitalized, just to 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:09.879 understand that it's sporadically capitalized in the fashion that Trump 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:13.680 likes to do. He didn't win the popular vote parentheses 0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:16.960 by a lot exclamation mark comma. He didn't win all 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:20.200 seven swing states. He didn't win two seven hundred and 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:23.480 fifty to five and twenty five counties. He didn't win anything. 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:27.560 I won for many reasons in an overwhelming mandate, but 0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:30.440 fightaling illegal immigration may have been the number one reason 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:33.199 for this historic victory and just doing what the voters 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:36.080 wanted me to do. This judge, like many of the 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:39.679 crooked judges I'm forced to appear before, should be impeached. 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:43.560 We don't want vicious, violent and tormented criminals, many of 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:47.280 them deranged murderers, in our country. Make America great again, 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:51.960 Tom Homan. The borders are also told Fox News quote, 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:54.000 I don't care what the judges think. 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:56.960 We made a promise to American people. The President Trump 0:20:57.000 --> 0:20:59.040 has made a promise to American people we're going to 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:01.879 make this country say again, I wake up every morning 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:04.320 loving my job because I work for the greatest president 0:21:04.359 --> 0:21:06.159 in the history of my life, and we're going to 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:08.520 make this country safe again. I'm probably be a part 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:11.159 of this administration. We're not stopping. I don't care what 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:13.600 the judges think. I don't care the left. Thanks, we're 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:14.640 coming too. 0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:18.280 I just love seeing you going through these protests. Is 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:22.720 just crunching on the apple as they're liberal tears just 0:21:22.720 --> 0:21:24.840 just fle out the hallway. Tom Holman, thanks so much 0:21:24.880 --> 0:21:25.840 for joining the program. 0:21:26.480 --> 0:21:30.840 You gotta think this is open defiance of the courts, right, Like, 0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:31.680 I don't really know. 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:34.399 It's what we've been talking about the past month on 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:38.280 executive disorder. How we are just continually like ramping up 0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:42.000 this clash between the executive branch and the judicial branch. 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:44.800 The congressional branch has already basically given up all of 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:49.320 their power, and yeah, this is like an actual constitutional crisis. Yeah, 0:21:49.480 --> 0:21:51.959 very few people are taking this as seriously as what 0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:54.680 it should be, and even the courts seem a little 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:57.919 bit tepid to like actually enforce their own power or 0:21:57.960 --> 0:21:58.760 like try to. 0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:02.600 Yeah, I mean Boseberg mentioned contempt once from what I 0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:06.440 can find on PACER. But like, obviously these judges I 0:22:06.440 --> 0:22:08.240 think are somewhat concerned that if they, you know, they 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:10.879 find the government in contempt to court, then what happens 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:13.639 because if you, like, yeah, if you play your Trump 0:22:13.680 --> 0:22:15.840 card and no one cares, then you have no carves 0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:16.440 left to play. 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:20.280 It's it's kind of odd how the judges themselves are 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:25.320 seemingly afraid of like pushing this constitutional crisis into a 0:22:25.400 --> 0:22:29.640 explicit territory right to be like what if we do 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:31.960 the thing that then makes it clear to everyone else 0:22:32.080 --> 0:22:35.359 like we have no power, like like we actually have 0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:40.399 like like it is just authoritarianism via the executive branch. Yeah, 0:22:40.440 --> 0:22:43.479 it's almost like they're trying to like backpedal from this 0:22:43.600 --> 0:22:47.040 like very obvious accelerationist push of like, no, we need 0:22:47.080 --> 0:22:49.399 to actually test test this out. 0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:51.040 Yeah, because we need to know where we're at. 0:22:51.119 --> 0:22:54.520 Like, and they're scared too, because they're scared what if 0:22:54.680 --> 0:22:57.560 what if that testing causes like the Trump side to win? 0:22:57.880 --> 0:23:00.840 Yeah, but they were already winning in the in the 0:23:00.880 --> 0:23:02.320 absence exactly. 0:23:02.359 --> 0:23:04.600 And the problem is that in absence of that, you 0:23:04.680 --> 0:23:06.520 were just giving up and letting Trump win. 0:23:06.760 --> 0:23:08.920 Yeah, Like after Trump called. 0:23:08.720 --> 0:23:12.119 To impeach the quote unquote radical leftist lunatic of a 0:23:12.240 --> 0:23:16.720 judge who tried to temporarily halt the deportation of of 0:23:16.760 --> 0:23:20.800 these three hundred Venezuelan immigrants. Chief Justice John Roberts made 0:23:21.160 --> 0:23:25.520 a rare public statement rebuking calls to impeach judges for 0:23:25.640 --> 0:23:28.959 rulings that don't align with political agendas. And that's as 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:31.639 far as they're going right now. They're making rare public 0:23:31.680 --> 0:23:35.160 statements saying you probably shouldn't call to impeach a judge. Meanwhile, 0:23:35.280 --> 0:23:38.240 Musk complaints on Twitter dot com about a quote unquote 0:23:38.320 --> 0:23:41.960 judicial coup, and it mistakenly calls for sixty senators to 0:23:42.000 --> 0:23:45.399 impeach a leftist to judges. Now, of course, the Senate 0:23:45.400 --> 0:23:48.040 does not do impeachments. The House does, and the Senate 0:23:48.080 --> 0:23:51.560 requires sixty seven votes to convict it and remove someone 0:23:51.560 --> 0:23:55.159 from office once impeached. So, haha, we got you, We 0:23:55.200 --> 0:23:59.680 got you, Elon, you made a mistake, We win, not coing. 0:24:01.520 --> 0:24:04.840 Yeah, it's where we're at right now with this case. 0:24:04.960 --> 0:24:08.520 We're recording this. On Thursday, Boseberg gave them twenty four 0:24:08.520 --> 0:24:11.520 our extension to provide details about the flights. The government 0:24:11.560 --> 0:24:14.800 has suggested that it might claim that these are state secrets, 0:24:15.359 --> 0:24:18.240 despite the fact that it has widely publicized these flights, 0:24:18.240 --> 0:24:20.159 including in the video that we discussed. 0:24:20.560 --> 0:24:23.800 Yeah, they're turning these into fucking like tiktoking Instagram real 0:24:23.920 --> 0:24:24.840 hype videos. 0:24:25.040 --> 0:24:28.440 They're not state secrets publicly. 0:24:28.880 --> 0:24:32.200 You're publicly displaying these to show that these people are 0:24:32.200 --> 0:24:35.359 not human. Yeah, like you're trying to scare everyone into saying, 0:24:35.400 --> 0:24:38.159 we decide if you are a person or not, and 0:24:38.200 --> 0:24:40.120 if you're not a person, this is what we can do. 0:24:40.160 --> 0:24:42.320 This, we can do whatever we want to. Yeah, it 0:24:42.320 --> 0:24:44.240 should be noted as well. There is actually a process 0:24:44.240 --> 0:24:47.199 in US law, through the Alien Terrorist Removal Court for 0:24:47.280 --> 0:24:51.440 the expedited removal of terrorist suspects without revealing classified information publicly. 0:24:51.880 --> 0:24:54.280 In fact, Bosberg was chief judge on that. 0:24:54.240 --> 0:24:55.280 Court for five years. 0:24:55.520 --> 0:24:56.399 Jesus Christ. 0:24:56.600 --> 0:24:59.800 But we are not using that process where were using 0:24:59.800 --> 0:25:03.840 their Alien Enemies Acted today. So yeah, this is a 0:25:03.920 --> 0:25:07.320 new exciting territory. In On Monday, so that's the day 0:25:07.320 --> 0:25:11.399 that you're hearing this, a panel of judges from the 0:25:11.440 --> 0:25:15.919 District Court in DC will hear an appeal by the 0:25:16.000 --> 0:25:20.800 United States Government against Bozberg's attentive restraining order, the one 0:25:20.840 --> 0:25:25.640 that it didn't obey anyway, So we will have more 0:25:25.680 --> 0:25:27.520 on this, and we will keep updating you on this, 0:25:27.800 --> 0:25:30.800 and suffice it to say that I guess again this 0:25:30.880 --> 0:25:33.600 is a constitutional crisis. Like this is what it looks like. 0:25:33.840 --> 0:25:36.399 I don't know if people expect like fireworks to go 0:25:36.440 --> 0:25:38.399 off or like some confetti to drop and it to 0:25:38.440 --> 0:25:43.120 be like the separation of powers is gone, but if 0:25:43.160 --> 0:25:45.840 the government can ignore the courts, and that is what 0:25:45.920 --> 0:25:50.960 is happening. So I guess we will see in the meantime. 0:25:51.359 --> 0:25:54.800 These people, many of whom one of them was a musician, 0:25:55.320 --> 0:25:57.840 one of them was a football player, right Like, I've 0:25:57.880 --> 0:26:02.120 interviewed hundreds, if not thousands, of fens word of migrants, 0:26:02.240 --> 0:26:03.879 and most of them, it will shock you to hear, 0:26:04.080 --> 0:26:06.399 are just people who don't want to live with the 0:26:06.880 --> 0:26:08.639 state on the neck, people who want to make a 0:26:08.640 --> 0:26:12.840 decent living for their their families. For what it's worth. 0:26:12.960 --> 0:26:15.800 None of the Venezuelan migrants are met in the Dadian 0:26:15.880 --> 0:26:17.720 Gap or in the United States or have come to 0:26:17.840 --> 0:26:19.600 United States or my knowledge, just for people who are 0:26:19.640 --> 0:26:23.199 like wondering how those stories kind of resolve, they resolve 0:26:23.280 --> 0:26:26.200 with people currently stuck in Mexico in pretty terrible conditions, 0:26:26.240 --> 0:26:28.920 either working for very little or unable to work at all, 0:26:28.960 --> 0:26:33.359 and trying to work out what to do. It's pretty 0:26:33.359 --> 0:26:37.600 bleak for them, it's pretty bleak for us to if 0:26:37.800 --> 0:26:40.320 this is the duration that things are going. I don't 0:26:40.320 --> 0:26:41.719 ever have much more to say. 0:26:42.680 --> 0:26:44.160 No, I don't know what else there is to say 0:26:44.200 --> 0:26:47.679 about them, just bypassing the courts to do a complete 0:26:47.680 --> 0:26:51.080 authoritarian overgrab so that they can send hundreds of people 0:26:51.119 --> 0:26:54.159 to essentially like a labor camp black site in a 0:26:54.200 --> 0:26:58.640 different country for an unknown period of time without any 0:26:58.920 --> 0:26:59.760 legal process. 0:27:00.080 --> 0:27:02.280 Gets to be clear, not all of these people even 0:27:02.400 --> 0:27:04.679 entered the United States between ports of entry, which has 0:27:04.680 --> 0:27:08.840 been charged as a misdemeanor generally isn't charged. Some of 0:27:08.880 --> 0:27:11.239 them came with the CBP one the fucking app the 0:27:11.280 --> 0:27:12.119 thing you're supposed to do. 0:27:12.440 --> 0:27:14.720 These are not proven criminals like these. 0:27:14.760 --> 0:27:18.600 These these are just people, some of whom who immigrated 0:27:19.080 --> 0:27:22.480 legally and have been detained by ICE. I don't now 0:27:22.480 --> 0:27:27.359 shipped off to a like torture labor prison in a 0:27:27.359 --> 0:27:30.720 different country where they're going to stay for at least 0:27:30.760 --> 0:27:35.600 a year in parenthesis renewable, so like in depth ary, 0:27:35.960 --> 0:27:36.880 Like it's like. 0:27:36.800 --> 0:27:38.280 They can be forced to labor for the rest of 0:27:38.320 --> 0:27:43.320 their lives, a thing that has happened before in human history. 0:27:44.480 --> 0:27:47.199 No, Like, if you're like history understanders should look at 0:27:47.200 --> 0:27:49.720 what's happening and be like, oh, we're doing that again, huh. 0:27:49.760 --> 0:27:52.040 And the only way that this ends is with people 0:27:52.080 --> 0:27:55.359 getting angry enough to start doing something about it. And 0:27:55.440 --> 0:27:58.800 I feel like we are we're so like everyone's become 0:27:58.880 --> 0:28:00.800 so complacent that it's even hard to get people to 0:28:00.880 --> 0:28:03.480 care or like hear about this sort of thing from happening. 0:28:03.640 --> 0:28:06.640 Yeah, and you don't have to be like, I want 0:28:06.640 --> 0:28:09.560 to phrase this in radical terms that you don't have 0:28:09.600 --> 0:28:12.400 to be like anywhere on the left to understand that, like, 0:28:12.480 --> 0:28:15.080 this is an assault on basic human rights. It's a 0:28:15.200 --> 0:28:19.800 sort on the foundational principles of the United States government. 0:28:20.040 --> 0:28:22.680 And everyone should be concerned about this. You shouldn't be 0:28:22.720 --> 0:28:25.200 a left right issue. This should be like a right 0:28:25.200 --> 0:28:29.679 wrong issue. So hopefully you can all have some talks 0:28:29.760 --> 0:28:33.720 with your family this week. I don't know, like, I 0:28:33.720 --> 0:28:35.400 think it's really important to push back on the idea 0:28:35.400 --> 0:28:37.480 that these people have done any crimes, because they have not, 0:28:38.440 --> 0:28:41.480 that they have been convicted or found using any reasonable 0:28:41.480 --> 0:28:44.120 degree of evidence to be members of gangs like trend 0:28:44.120 --> 0:28:44.880 de Ragua. 0:28:44.800 --> 0:28:46.920 And even if they have been convicted, they should not 0:28:46.960 --> 0:28:50.520 be sent to the Al Salvador Order labor camp. But 0:28:50.560 --> 0:28:52.440 the fact that they're not even convicted, these are just 0:28:52.480 --> 0:28:56.280 random in some cases, like random Venezuelan men who have 0:28:56.360 --> 0:28:57.200 been rounded up. 0:28:57.120 --> 0:29:00.760 For the crime of having tattoos. For the most part, horrifying. 0:29:01.040 --> 0:29:02.040 It is petrifying. 0:29:02.760 --> 0:29:04.880 Yeah, it's happening like it. 0:29:04.880 --> 0:29:05.680 Is happening here. 0:29:05.760 --> 0:29:08.040 Every every day, We're getting closer to the Cool Zone 0:29:08.560 --> 0:29:11.640 as more and more people start taking this situation seriously. 0:29:12.120 --> 0:29:15.680 Yeah, so, yeah, take it seriously, you know, advocate for 0:29:15.760 --> 0:29:19.240 these people. Best of luck, And if you want to 0:29:19.280 --> 0:29:22.520 email us, you can do Cool Zone tips at proton 0:29:22.920 --> 0:29:26.640 don't me that's an encrypted email address, but it's only 0:29:26.880 --> 0:29:28.880 encrypted end to end. If you also send from an 0:29:28.880 --> 0:29:33.800 encrypted email address, do your due diligence, and yeah, send us, 0:29:34.200 --> 0:29:35.960 send us tips if you have tips, ideas, if you 0:29:35.960 --> 0:29:39.320 have ideas, and we will be back tomorrow with more 0:29:39.440 --> 0:29:40.920 things that are happening here. 0:30:01.560 --> 0:30:05.760 Welcome to could Happened Here? A podcast about bad things. 0:30:06.480 --> 0:30:09.760 Usually I don't know. This is mostly a bad Things episode. 0:30:10.440 --> 0:30:12.800 I am your host, Miya Wong, And one of the 0:30:12.880 --> 0:30:14.600 kind of things we've emphasized on the show a lot 0:30:14.680 --> 0:30:17.360 is that a lot of the structure of the kind 0:30:17.400 --> 0:30:20.200 of open fascism that we're seeing now is stuff that 0:30:20.400 --> 0:30:24.880 was put in place under liberal administrations and it's practices 0:30:24.960 --> 0:30:27.520 that are carried out by Democrats. And one of the 0:30:27.560 --> 0:30:29.680 biggest ones of those and this is something that I 0:30:29.760 --> 0:30:31.680 think you can trace the violence here and you can 0:30:31.680 --> 0:30:34.640 trace the politics that it inspired directly to how we 0:30:34.760 --> 0:30:39.000 got to Trump being in power is the just continuous 0:30:39.080 --> 0:30:42.960 crisis in the US of governments doing sweeps of encampments 0:30:42.960 --> 0:30:47.120 of unhoused people. And to talk about really one of 0:30:47.160 --> 0:30:49.960 the most horrifying things that happens regularly in a country 0:30:50.040 --> 0:30:53.920 of just unhinged and hideous horror is Emma, who does 0:30:54.000 --> 0:30:57.200 advocacy work for on house and disabled people and Alameda County, 0:30:57.440 --> 0:31:02.080 and Satya, who does support drink sweeps in Oakland when yeah, 0:31:02.120 --> 0:31:04.480 this fucking got hintshit happens. So both of you two, 0:31:04.520 --> 0:31:05.240 welcome to the show. 0:31:06.320 --> 0:31:10.200 Thanks for having us. Yeah, thank you appreciate the chance 0:31:10.240 --> 0:31:10.920 to talk with you. 0:31:11.440 --> 0:31:14.680 Yeah, I always want to say that I'm excited and 0:31:14.760 --> 0:31:17.920 like it is true. However, I wish I ran a 0:31:17.920 --> 0:31:20.760 podcast that was about like good things, so that why 0:31:20.760 --> 0:31:22.880 I could talk to people. It wasn't like, it wasn't 0:31:22.920 --> 0:31:24.400 me being like, yeah, I'm excited to talk about like 0:31:24.440 --> 0:31:28.320 the worst thing that happened. So I think a place 0:31:28.360 --> 0:31:32.000 to start on this is when we talk about what 0:31:32.160 --> 0:31:35.800 a sweep actually is on a physical level of what happens, 0:31:35.840 --> 0:31:39.959 because I think people really don't have a sense of that. 0:31:40.600 --> 0:31:43.640 Yeah, yeah, I think stopped ya. Maybe you want to 0:31:43.760 --> 0:31:44.480 take this one. 0:31:44.960 --> 0:31:48.320 Yeah, I'm happy to take this one. Yeah, thank you. 0:31:48.480 --> 0:31:50.680 I feel like, first of all, before I even go 0:31:50.760 --> 0:31:53.000 into it, yes, I think a lot of people who 0:31:53.040 --> 0:31:55.920 have never experienced a sweep or don't have loved ones 0:31:55.920 --> 0:31:58.000 who have been swept. I think a lot of people 0:31:58.080 --> 0:32:01.000 have no idea what a sweep actually can, even if 0:32:01.040 --> 0:32:03.240 in a general sense they feel that it's a bad 0:32:03.280 --> 0:32:06.280 thing or a wrong thing. And I think part of 0:32:06.320 --> 0:32:10.960 that is deliberate. Sweeps usually happen during business hours, during 0:32:11.040 --> 0:32:13.920 nine to five hours, because at least in Oakland, they're 0:32:14.280 --> 0:32:17.200 conducted by the Department of Public Works. They're city employees, 0:32:17.240 --> 0:32:19.960 they work nine to five, so accept in cases where 0:32:19.960 --> 0:32:23.880 they work over time, or when the city uses loopholes 0:32:23.920 --> 0:32:26.720 to get around posting notice and ends up doing a 0:32:26.760 --> 0:32:29.840 sweep on the weekend. They're usually happening when a lot 0:32:29.880 --> 0:32:32.880 of middle class housed folks are at work and not 0:32:33.560 --> 0:32:37.280 out and about seeing what's going on. So a sweep, 0:32:37.640 --> 0:32:40.880 and I'm primarily talking in the context of Oakland, California, 0:32:40.960 --> 0:32:44.280 but I think it's safe to assume that these operate 0:32:44.280 --> 0:32:47.400 in similar ways around the country. Generally, what will happen 0:32:47.760 --> 0:32:50.640 is you, let's say you're living in an encampment, a 0:32:50.720 --> 0:32:54.280 sweep has been posted in Oakland. There is policy that 0:32:54.320 --> 0:32:56.680 states that you're supposed to have received at least a 0:32:56.720 --> 0:32:59.760 week's notice. However, a lot of people don't receive this notice, 0:33:00.080 --> 0:33:02.360 might not even know that it's happening. You might wake 0:33:02.440 --> 0:33:05.560 up at around nine am to a bunch of heavy 0:33:05.560 --> 0:33:10.120 machinery pulling up dump truck, small bulldozers, other types of 0:33:10.160 --> 0:33:14.160 sort of like heavy equipment. And then you'll have somebody 0:33:14.200 --> 0:33:18.920 from the city administration, like a city administrator's assistant, going 0:33:18.960 --> 0:33:21.920 around announcing that the city of Oakland is there, you know, 0:33:22.720 --> 0:33:25.320 making noise that your tent or your car or wherever 0:33:25.360 --> 0:33:29.000 you're staying, saying hey, this encampment is being closed down. 0:33:29.080 --> 0:33:30.320 You have to be out of here. 0:33:30.440 --> 0:33:35.560 There usually are representatives of the city's contracted outreach organization 0:33:35.680 --> 0:33:39.400 called Operation Dignity. They're supposed to be there. Very rarely 0:33:39.400 --> 0:33:42.120 do they actually have referral for somewhere to go. They'll 0:33:42.160 --> 0:33:44.200 basically just be like, hey, do you want services. They 0:33:44.200 --> 0:33:47.120 won't usually specify what the services are. They'll just show 0:33:47.200 --> 0:33:50.040 up and be like, hey, do you want services. If 0:33:50.080 --> 0:33:53.480 you say yes or have questions about what services are available, 0:33:53.960 --> 0:33:57.400 they may give you a sort of very vague rundown 0:33:57.640 --> 0:34:01.800 of whatever might be available that because they don't usually 0:34:01.880 --> 0:34:05.920 even find out what openings are available until ten am 0:34:06.120 --> 0:34:08.080 on any given day, so at the time that they 0:34:08.160 --> 0:34:10.440 roll up, they usually don't even know what's available yet. 0:34:10.760 --> 0:34:13.719 So it kind of progresses from there. I mean, every 0:34:13.760 --> 0:34:16.520 sweep is a little different, but the commonality between all 0:34:16.560 --> 0:34:18.239 of them is that what the city is there to 0:34:18.280 --> 0:34:20.839 do is essentially to erase all signed that anybody ever 0:34:20.880 --> 0:34:26.560 lived there. So either you are able to pack as 0:34:26.640 --> 0:34:28.480 much stuff as you can and get it out of 0:34:28.480 --> 0:34:30.839 the eviction zone before the city decides that it's your 0:34:30.840 --> 0:34:33.279 turn to be targeted, or all of your stuff ends 0:34:33.360 --> 0:34:35.319 up in the back of a dump truck. There are 0:34:35.360 --> 0:34:39.960 other sort of specific pieces of policy and operational things 0:34:39.960 --> 0:34:42.560 that can vary from time to time, like, for example, 0:34:42.600 --> 0:34:45.839 they're supposed to follow a bag and tag policy, which 0:34:45.880 --> 0:34:49.320 means that they're expected to store up to a cubic 0:34:49.400 --> 0:34:52.840 yard of somebody's belongings for ninety days at a storage 0:34:52.840 --> 0:34:56.800 location in East Oakland. They rarely do this unless hounded 0:34:56.840 --> 0:34:59.640 to do so, and most of the time, the actual 0:34:59.640 --> 0:35:02.279 process as of going back and reclaiming your belongings from 0:35:02.320 --> 0:35:05.960 that location has enough barriers that almost nobody ever manages 0:35:06.000 --> 0:35:06.440 to do it. 0:35:06.880 --> 0:35:08.839 Yeah. So, so to just make this clear, the thing 0:35:08.880 --> 0:35:10.360 that they're doing is they show up and then they 0:35:10.440 --> 0:35:13.920 fucking deshoil your property, yep. Like the thing that it 0:35:14.000 --> 0:35:17.760 most closely resembles is like we're doing our own miniature 0:35:17.760 --> 0:35:21.279 ethnic cleansings. Like that's just like what that is. 0:35:21.560 --> 0:35:27.680 Ye, Yes, And every suite there are at least several 0:35:28.160 --> 0:35:31.360 police you know, depending on the size of the sweep, 0:35:31.440 --> 0:35:35.360 that can be even more. And so there is a 0:35:35.560 --> 0:35:40.560 very real threat of police violence like underlying every single 0:35:40.640 --> 0:35:45.719 encampment suite. And so the SUITEP that Oakland this week 0:35:45.760 --> 0:35:50.439 practices that Oakland has set up are like very kind 0:35:50.480 --> 0:35:55.160 of odd, and they are associated with different like lawsuits 0:35:55.160 --> 0:35:58.320 that have occurred in the past couple of actually since 0:35:58.400 --> 0:36:02.960 the seventies. But so there are certain requirements that the 0:36:02.960 --> 0:36:08.080 City of Oakland is obligated to follow in like certain 0:36:08.120 --> 0:36:14.240 provisions and offers that like homeless people are technically supposed 0:36:14.280 --> 0:36:17.800 to be receiving and for a bunch of complicated reasons, 0:36:17.920 --> 0:36:21.160 like rarely ever are so for instance, like the bag 0:36:21.160 --> 0:36:26.160 and tag policy that Satya was just discussing, Like da've 0:36:27.280 --> 0:36:31.160 recently somebody did a pra request to see whether or 0:36:31.239 --> 0:36:36.600 not to say he was actually following faithfully following that policy. 0:36:36.680 --> 0:36:40.800 And I think in like over a year there were 0:36:41.320 --> 0:36:45.400 I believe eight bagging tags that were registered in the 0:36:45.440 --> 0:36:51.080 city system. And that was in that same period there 0:36:51.160 --> 0:36:56.040 were like well over one hundred sweeps you know, I 0:36:56.080 --> 0:36:59.799 don't have the exact number on me, but or yeah, 0:37:00.360 --> 0:37:05.840 actually five hundred and thirty seven closure two instances of 0:37:05.960 --> 0:37:11.600 storing property. So you know that's people's their whole lives. 0:37:11.640 --> 0:37:17.000 All their possessions like precious items that they they're able 0:37:17.040 --> 0:37:20.480 to hang on to are just yeah, destroyed and they 0:37:20.520 --> 0:37:21.720 never see them again. 0:37:22.160 --> 0:37:25.520 And I would also add to the piece around like 0:37:25.880 --> 0:37:29.080 the quote like offer of services, Like that's also something 0:37:29.120 --> 0:37:32.320 written into their policy that they're supposed to be connecting 0:37:32.360 --> 0:37:35.279 people to housing ahead of sweeps, and that's what they 0:37:35.400 --> 0:37:38.600 use to continually justify the way that they operate. Is 0:37:38.600 --> 0:37:42.320 that in for example, city council meetings and Homelessness Commission 0:37:42.360 --> 0:37:47.280 meetings where city admin is questioned on their procedures because 0:37:47.400 --> 0:37:50.719 they get complaints, like the Homeless Commission gets complaints constantly 0:37:50.760 --> 0:37:54.280 of people being mistreated, losing all their belongings, never getting 0:37:54.280 --> 0:37:57.560 referred to housing, and so forth. And the justification that's 0:37:57.560 --> 0:38:00.279 constantly used is like, well, we're offering people service, says 0:38:00.320 --> 0:38:02.680 every time, and they just refuse them. And I think 0:38:02.719 --> 0:38:05.719 that that is pretty much the number one mythology that 0:38:05.880 --> 0:38:10.359 is continuing to spur a lot of the like pro 0:38:10.520 --> 0:38:13.640 sweep discourse in Oakland specifically, and I'm sure in other 0:38:13.680 --> 0:38:16.120 parts of the country as well, and people are not 0:38:16.360 --> 0:38:20.399 like to be clear, most of the time, people are 0:38:20.400 --> 0:38:24.400 not actually being offered services. It's just not happening. 0:38:25.160 --> 0:38:28.160 Yeah, this is a national discourse, he shares alt. I mean, 0:38:28.200 --> 0:38:29.520 you know, I think a lot of it kind of 0:38:29.560 --> 0:38:32.440 is concentrated in the most unhinged like tech sectors in 0:38:32.480 --> 0:38:35.799 the Bay. But like you hear like officially Elon Musk 0:38:35.840 --> 0:38:38.480 has talked about like, oh, there's there's like a homeless 0:38:38.480 --> 0:38:41.279 industrial complex and like all of these people are just 0:38:41.320 --> 0:38:43.560 like they want to live on the street, and like 0:38:43.600 --> 0:38:46.000 they're like turning down houses all the time, and it's 0:38:46.040 --> 0:38:50.480 just like it's so it's so completely unmored from reality. 0:38:50.680 --> 0:38:54.520 But what's funny is I've actually used the term homeless 0:38:54.520 --> 0:38:58.799 industrial complex myself. I didn't know that that's hilarious. There 0:38:58.880 --> 0:39:02.120 is a homeless industry, it's just that the people making 0:39:02.160 --> 0:39:04.600 money off of it are the people who are perpetrating 0:39:04.640 --> 0:39:08.040 those sweeps. The reason that they're not actually putting forth 0:39:08.120 --> 0:39:11.040 real solutions that will get people into safe shelter and 0:39:11.080 --> 0:39:14.960 housing is because they're the ones benefiting from the perpetuation 0:39:15.080 --> 0:39:16.640 of these economic conditions. 0:39:17.200 --> 0:39:20.120 Yeah, there's so many things that I want to pick 0:39:20.200 --> 0:39:23.960 up on, but I guess just on that point specifically, Like, 0:39:24.160 --> 0:39:30.319 there was an audit into California spending on homelessness. I 0:39:30.360 --> 0:39:33.359 believe it was over a period of seven years, and 0:39:33.400 --> 0:39:38.080 it showed that there was twenty four billion dollars spent 0:39:38.480 --> 0:39:44.600 on grants to nonprofits or cities to provide people with 0:39:44.920 --> 0:39:49.520 different services that are kind of designed around homelessness and 0:39:50.200 --> 0:39:54.720 providing housing or legal services. Like there's a whole range 0:39:54.960 --> 0:39:57.920 of things that's out there, but a lot of the 0:39:58.040 --> 0:40:01.600 time like these are the only options that are available 0:40:01.680 --> 0:40:07.800 to people, and they tend to produce less than stell 0:40:07.920 --> 0:40:11.800 the results. So, out of the twenty four billion dollars 0:40:11.840 --> 0:40:16.800 that was allocated to help homeless people in that same 0:40:16.840 --> 0:40:21.480 period of time, homelessness in California just like skyrocketed, right, 0:40:21.520 --> 0:40:25.840 So rates of homelessness increased while this money was getting 0:40:25.960 --> 0:40:30.520 plumped into the pockets of the bank accounts of landlords 0:40:30.560 --> 0:40:34.960 and developers. It is an issue that people on every 0:40:35.520 --> 0:40:40.200 side of the political compass like they like to use 0:40:40.239 --> 0:40:45.120 this point to their own ends, right, So Elon Musk 0:40:45.239 --> 0:40:48.560 talks about it, and like people on the left will 0:40:48.600 --> 0:40:53.200 talk about it. But I think like the experience that 0:40:53.280 --> 0:40:57.120 people on the street have is very different than any 0:40:57.160 --> 0:41:00.800 of these narratives that you tend to hear in the media. 0:41:01.840 --> 0:41:05.000 Yes, unfortunately, we need to take an ad break. I 0:41:05.239 --> 0:41:08.239 don't have a good transition here. I don't know, We'll 0:41:08.239 --> 0:41:09.919 move of one set of horrors to a slightly different 0:41:09.920 --> 0:41:11.520 set of horrors and go back to the first set 0:41:11.520 --> 0:41:17.960 of horrors. 0:41:22.280 --> 0:41:26.360 All of this money is being dedicated to these programs, 0:41:26.400 --> 0:41:31.279 and homelessness is only rising. I think, like one thing 0:41:31.400 --> 0:41:35.080 that I've heard before that's a kind of useful way 0:41:35.120 --> 0:41:38.799 to think about this kind of government spending is if 0:41:38.800 --> 0:41:41.080 homeless people would be better off if you just gave 0:41:41.160 --> 0:41:45.319 them the money directly, you know, then that kind of way, 0:41:45.320 --> 0:41:50.080 it's really hard to justify these programs when that can't 0:41:50.080 --> 0:41:51.520 be said of them, you know. 0:41:52.040 --> 0:41:54.400 And I think the thing that you pointed out, Emma, 0:41:54.560 --> 0:41:57.240 about the fact that we have huge amounts of money 0:41:57.520 --> 0:42:01.560 allegedly being spent on my homelessness abatement or homeless services 0:42:01.600 --> 0:42:04.319 at the same time that homelessness is skyrocketing is really 0:42:04.360 --> 0:42:06.759 not an accident, because what that money is really being 0:42:06.800 --> 0:42:09.560 spent on is to fuel exactly what is it, like, 0:42:09.600 --> 0:42:12.600 the homeless industrial complex. There's a reason that most of 0:42:12.600 --> 0:42:14.840 that money is going into the pockets of landlords and 0:42:14.880 --> 0:42:18.160 developers and then sort of like these sort of large 0:42:18.400 --> 0:42:22.920 like nonprofit almost like conglomerates of like service providers. And 0:42:23.000 --> 0:42:26.200 it's because the primary point of homelessness services as it 0:42:26.280 --> 0:42:30.479 exists in this country is not to get homeless people 0:42:30.480 --> 0:42:35.040 into housing. It's to line the pockets of the people 0:42:35.200 --> 0:42:37.600 that are making the most money off of the real 0:42:37.719 --> 0:42:41.920 estate market anyway. And so because of that, it is 0:42:41.920 --> 0:42:46.120 not an accident that you see homeless spending and homelessness 0:42:46.840 --> 0:42:49.200 like escalating at the same time. It's because this is 0:42:49.239 --> 0:42:52.680 the feedback loop, Like, this is the way that our 0:42:53.160 --> 0:42:56.920 you know, economic priorities in this country are structured, are 0:42:56.960 --> 0:42:59.439 such that those two things are going to feed into 0:42:59.440 --> 0:43:03.600 each other because that money doesn't actually exist to serve 0:43:03.800 --> 0:43:06.040 the populations that they say that they're using it to serve. 0:43:06.360 --> 0:43:08.680 What they do get to do is by claiming that 0:43:08.680 --> 0:43:13.080 that money is going into homelessness abatement, when clearly it isn't. 0:43:13.160 --> 0:43:15.160 They then get to spend a narrative where they say, oh, 0:43:15.239 --> 0:43:17.640 we've spent all this money, but the problem is just 0:43:17.680 --> 0:43:20.480 getting worse. That must mean that it is the fault 0:43:20.480 --> 0:43:23.200 of unhoused people and that they're choosing this because clearly 0:43:23.280 --> 0:43:25.640 the services must exist to get them off the street. 0:43:26.040 --> 0:43:27.600 In reality, that's not the case at all. 0:43:28.280 --> 0:43:31.920 Yeah. I think also it's super important for people to 0:43:32.080 --> 0:43:37.359 understand that these programs, housing programs, shelter programs, they are 0:43:37.480 --> 0:43:43.720 out there but they are decoupled from the sweep operations 0:43:43.760 --> 0:43:48.040 that are occurring. Right So, the City of Oakland, they 0:43:48.440 --> 0:43:54.080 are contracted with a nonprofit softia mentioned earlier called Operation Dignity, 0:43:54.680 --> 0:43:59.960 and they are required to check in with its different 0:44:00.560 --> 0:44:04.319 encampments that are scheduled to be closed at least a 0:44:04.400 --> 0:44:09.359 week before the suite and the purpose of that is 0:44:09.400 --> 0:44:14.360 to notify people that it's happening. The City of Oakland 0:44:14.440 --> 0:44:19.040 is required for the terms of this lawsuit back in 0:44:19.600 --> 0:44:24.120 I believe twenty nineteen, the Moralees lawsuit, and there was 0:44:24.239 --> 0:44:27.920 a settlement that resulted in the city being required to 0:44:28.160 --> 0:44:32.800 provide clear notices whenever they're going to close like a site. 0:44:33.120 --> 0:44:37.680 So yeah, this nonprofit providers was to like notify people 0:44:37.760 --> 0:44:42.279 and try to get them connected with services. However, the 0:44:42.320 --> 0:44:47.040 services for the most part, like housing for people who 0:44:47.040 --> 0:44:52.640 are unhoused, is largely funded through the federal government and 0:44:53.080 --> 0:44:59.959 through this very like complex and inaccessible system called coordinated entry. 0:45:00.800 --> 0:45:06.120 The coordinated Entry system is not something that the City 0:45:06.160 --> 0:45:11.280 of Oakland or Operation Dignity like that is not something 0:45:11.360 --> 0:45:16.520 that they're providing people with during the sweep. So when 0:45:16.880 --> 0:45:20.799 the City of Oakland, like for instance, and one of 0:45:20.840 --> 0:45:27.160 the Commissions on Homelessness meetings, the city administrator Harold Duffy. 0:45:27.880 --> 0:45:33.960 He presented actually in response to a question about somebody's 0:45:34.000 --> 0:45:40.120 wheelchair being destroyed by public works. Yeah, he gave this 0:45:40.239 --> 0:45:46.799 really like roundabout deflecting answer where he said basically that 0:45:46.880 --> 0:45:52.359 everyone who is at an encampment at the time of 0:45:52.400 --> 0:45:58.719 the sweep has like expressly refused services like shelter or 0:45:58.800 --> 0:46:03.160 housing or whatever, and that they kind of presumes that 0:46:03.200 --> 0:46:08.080 the city actually has opportunities that they can provide people with, 0:46:08.680 --> 0:46:13.360 which is just not the case. The Coordinated Entry System, 0:46:14.040 --> 0:46:17.600 it is a program that is first of all, like 0:46:18.160 --> 0:46:22.600 only people who are disabled can get what's called permanent 0:46:22.600 --> 0:46:26.279 supportive housing through the program. But also it is in 0:46:26.400 --> 0:46:30.400 such high demand and is so inadequate to the needs 0:46:30.560 --> 0:46:35.200 that Alameda County is currently like the situation that we're 0:46:35.320 --> 0:46:40.360 in that the wait list is like thousands of people long, 0:46:41.200 --> 0:46:44.560 and it can take well over a year before someone 0:46:44.800 --> 0:46:49.440 can get housing through that system. So it's just like 0:46:49.480 --> 0:46:53.560 it's not true. They do offer people what are called 0:46:53.680 --> 0:46:57.520 community cabins, which are tough sheds. 0:46:58.160 --> 0:46:59.879 They're not even offerend people that they're full. 0:47:00.600 --> 0:47:03.480 Yeah, that's what they say. They offer sorry I had 0:47:03.600 --> 0:47:04.319 me to cut you off. 0:47:04.480 --> 0:47:07.759 I feel strongly about this, so I think it's also 0:47:07.760 --> 0:47:10.600 worth saying, like in terms of I feel like that's 0:47:10.600 --> 0:47:14.400 a really a really useful layout, Emma, in terms of 0:47:14.440 --> 0:47:16.840 like the way that the system is actually structured for 0:47:16.920 --> 0:47:19.680 people not to be able to access services, I feel 0:47:19.680 --> 0:47:24.560 like it's also worth pointing out that just day to 0:47:24.640 --> 0:47:26.360 day on the ground, I feel like I feel like 0:47:26.400 --> 0:47:27.560 I get to see a lot of sort of like 0:47:27.640 --> 0:47:30.040 minute details and changes in the way that they're operating 0:47:30.080 --> 0:47:34.239 in response to what they're like internal systems actually look like. 0:47:34.400 --> 0:47:37.479 And what we have seen over the last six months 0:47:37.520 --> 0:47:41.080 to a year is not only this pattern that I'm 0:47:41.080 --> 0:47:44.719 I was talking about of like they're like people are 0:47:44.719 --> 0:47:48.120 consistently not getting connected with services and then being accused 0:47:48.120 --> 0:47:50.799 of refusing services just due to the conditions that they're 0:47:50.840 --> 0:47:55.359 living under, but also everything that Oakland has and that 0:47:55.520 --> 0:48:01.200 approaches like livable transitional housing, which is kind of laughable 0:48:01.200 --> 0:48:02.840 in this case because we can also go into like 0:48:02.880 --> 0:48:05.920 the conditions of the transitional housing programs and shelters in 0:48:05.960 --> 0:48:08.360 Oakland which are abysmal, but everything that they have that 0:48:08.440 --> 0:48:12.000 approaches livable transitional housing is full. 0:48:12.600 --> 0:48:13.440 I very rarely. 0:48:13.520 --> 0:48:15.960 Every few weeks, maybe I see one or two people 0:48:16.080 --> 0:48:20.000 get referred to one of those programs, and far more 0:48:20.040 --> 0:48:21.920 often I'll be in a situation. For example, I was 0:48:22.080 --> 0:48:24.520 I was at a sweep over near twenty third and 0:48:24.600 --> 0:48:27.080 Northgate a couple of weeks ago, and I was there 0:48:27.080 --> 0:48:29.239 when Operation Dignity rolled up and I heard what they 0:48:29.280 --> 0:48:30.920 were saying when they were talking to people, and this 0:48:30.960 --> 0:48:34.040 one dude was going around talking to folks and he 0:48:34.120 --> 0:48:37.400 kind of he wasn't even approaching talking about services. He 0:48:37.440 --> 0:48:39.080 was approaching being like, Hey, I just here to let 0:48:39.120 --> 0:48:40.920 you know that this area is going to be closed down, 0:48:40.960 --> 0:48:43.200 Like there's so sweet that's going to be happening. So 0:48:43.239 --> 0:48:44.560 you guys have to be out of here. So that 0:48:44.640 --> 0:48:46.920 was what they led with. And then I prompted him 0:48:46.920 --> 0:48:48.520 because I was there chatting with one of the guys 0:48:48.520 --> 0:48:50.279 that he was talking to, so I prompted him. I 0:48:50.320 --> 0:48:52.719 was like, do you have any services to offer? And 0:48:52.760 --> 0:48:55.400 then he was like, oh, you can go over to 0:48:55.400 --> 0:48:58.560 Saint Vincent de Paul, which is congre Get shelter in 0:48:58.600 --> 0:49:03.239 West Oakland with about four and nobody is guaranteed a 0:49:03.280 --> 0:49:05.120 spot is just a room full of cots, a lot 0:49:05.160 --> 0:49:07.799 of people refuse to go there because the conditions are 0:49:07.840 --> 0:49:10.040 so terrible and they don't feel comfortable or safe sleeping 0:49:10.080 --> 0:49:12.160 in a room full of a bunch of strangers with 0:49:12.239 --> 0:49:14.800 no kind of security, no guarantee of being able to 0:49:14.840 --> 0:49:17.319 hold onto their stuff. People are only allowed to bring 0:49:17.360 --> 0:49:19.560 in like a backpack sort of stuff, I'm pretty sure. 0:49:20.040 --> 0:49:22.200 And you also have to it's first come, first service. 0:49:22.280 --> 0:49:23.920 You have to line up outside every single day, and 0:49:23.960 --> 0:49:26.719 you are not guaranteed an indoor place to sleep even 0:49:26.719 --> 0:49:29.840 if you line up outside. So what we have is 0:49:29.880 --> 0:49:33.600 a situation where the availability of services varies from day 0:49:33.640 --> 0:49:37.440 to day. I cannot think of a single sweep in 0:49:37.520 --> 0:49:39.440 the last year that I have been to, and I'm 0:49:39.480 --> 0:49:43.800 at usually multiple sleeps a week where there were enough 0:49:44.400 --> 0:49:47.920 guaranteed spots available for every person being swept. So the 0:49:48.080 --> 0:49:51.120 implicit assumption at every single sweep and the Operation Dignity 0:49:51.120 --> 0:49:53.360 people know this too, like they know this, the implicit 0:49:53.440 --> 0:49:56.600 assumption when they roll up, and the assumption that colors 0:49:56.640 --> 0:49:59.040 even the tenor of all of their conversations that they're 0:49:59.040 --> 0:50:01.879 having with people, is that the majority of people are 0:50:01.880 --> 0:50:03.120 just going to have to figure out how to pack 0:50:03.120 --> 0:50:04.480 their shit up and find another. 0:50:04.280 --> 0:50:04.879 Place to camp. 0:50:05.400 --> 0:50:08.480 It's the assumption, and it's gotten to the point where, 0:50:08.760 --> 0:50:11.080 like od employees will roll up and like I said, 0:50:11.080 --> 0:50:13.719 they won't even necessarily lead with an offer of services. 0:50:14.000 --> 0:50:16.400 They'll lead almost in the hopes that the majority of 0:50:16.440 --> 0:50:18.600 people already have a place to relocate. They'll ask do 0:50:18.640 --> 0:50:21.480 you have a place to go before they offer services, 0:50:21.560 --> 0:50:23.919 or ask if people are entered as services, they'll ask 0:50:23.960 --> 0:50:25.800 like do you have another spot to move this stuff first? 0:50:25.800 --> 0:50:28.480 Because what they're hoping to do is eliminate as many 0:50:28.480 --> 0:50:30.560 people as possible from their list of people that they 0:50:30.560 --> 0:50:33.000 feel obligated to offer services too because they know they 0:50:33.000 --> 0:50:34.160 don't fucking have anything. 0:50:34.680 --> 0:50:39.520 Yeah, I think it's super important to just emphasize that point. 0:50:40.000 --> 0:50:46.239 The city is telling the media, they're telling businesses, anyone 0:50:46.560 --> 0:50:51.160 that comes to them with problems related to like hopelessness 0:50:51.320 --> 0:50:55.760 or concerns, they're telling them that everyone is being offered 0:50:55.840 --> 0:51:00.920 shelter and housing and it's just not true. That is 0:51:01.320 --> 0:51:06.560 reflective in the city's own publicly available data. So they 0:51:06.600 --> 0:51:11.320 actually publish like a list of all of the encampment 0:51:11.440 --> 0:51:15.960 suites that they've they do throughout the year, and in 0:51:16.160 --> 0:51:20.480 the Commission on homelessness meetings will report back to the 0:51:20.520 --> 0:51:25.040 Commission about like service enrollments that they've done through a 0:51:25.080 --> 0:51:30.440 certain period of time, and like from May to September 0:51:31.000 --> 0:51:35.759 they had enrolled I believe it was sixty people and 0:51:35.880 --> 0:51:41.840 to services like non specified services. And during that period 0:51:41.960 --> 0:51:48.040 there was approximately eighty sweeps. And if you assume there's 0:51:48.040 --> 0:51:52.319 at least five to ten people at every encampment when 0:51:52.920 --> 0:51:56.759 they do a sweep, and usually it's more that is 0:51:57.239 --> 0:52:02.200 like nine percent four point five of people like getting 0:52:02.360 --> 0:52:08.319 enrolled into into services, and like of those, maybe a 0:52:08.440 --> 0:52:14.040 smaller traction getting into shelter. And when they get into shelter, 0:52:14.640 --> 0:52:20.000 they just languish there, right, they aren't connected with case 0:52:20.040 --> 0:52:25.560 workers who help them get through this really convoluted coordinated 0:52:25.719 --> 0:52:30.880 entry process and like lengthy coordinated entry process, and so 0:52:31.120 --> 0:52:35.000 within a few months they're just right back on the street. 0:52:35.239 --> 0:52:41.960 You know, it's just ridiculous. And unfortunately, because homeless people 0:52:42.040 --> 0:52:45.040 have very little, like I guess you could call it 0:52:45.160 --> 0:52:48.440 social capital, you know, the city can get away with 0:52:48.480 --> 0:52:52.600 a lot of this stuff they do, like blatantly illegal 0:52:52.680 --> 0:52:59.120 things that are against even their own policies, and nothing happens. 0:52:59.400 --> 0:53:02.040 And I guess maybe we should back up a little 0:53:02.080 --> 0:53:05.759 bit and discuss the city's policy. 0:53:06.680 --> 0:53:08.919 It's from second at break and then we will come 0:53:08.920 --> 0:53:16.120 back more ads. I don't know by them question mark 0:53:25.480 --> 0:53:28.719 we are back. Yeah, so yeah, let's talk about I 0:53:28.719 --> 0:53:32.000 think what the city's policies are supposed to be versus 0:53:32.040 --> 0:53:34.320 like what they're actually doing on the ground. 0:53:34.920 --> 0:53:37.799 Yeah. I mean, their policy is their cover your ass technique, right. 0:53:37.840 --> 0:53:40.799 Their policy is what they refer back to whenever they 0:53:40.840 --> 0:53:45.080 want to sort of like like Emma said, if they're 0:53:45.600 --> 0:53:50.200 interfacing with businesses or house people, you know, and we 0:53:50.280 --> 0:53:53.040 have a whole range of house people calling free one one, 0:53:53.040 --> 0:53:54.920 which is basically their tip line for like go you 0:53:54.960 --> 0:53:56.759 see a homeless person that you don't want to be seen. 0:53:57.360 --> 0:53:58.880 But there's all a range of people. There's people that 0:53:58.920 --> 0:54:02.319 are actively malicious and violent, and there's literally people going 0:54:02.360 --> 0:54:05.600 out doing vigilanti shit and like destroying almost people's stuff 0:54:05.600 --> 0:54:07.640 on their own. And then you also have people that 0:54:07.680 --> 0:54:10.480 are well intentioned and really think the city is offering services. 0:54:10.880 --> 0:54:13.040 So you have this whole umbrella and the narrative that 0:54:13.080 --> 0:54:16.000 the city sells to everybody is bolstered by their policy. 0:54:16.040 --> 0:54:18.840 That's the purpose their policy services, not to inform their actions, 0:54:18.880 --> 0:54:21.799 but to inform their pr So I think it would 0:54:21.840 --> 0:54:24.000 be helpful. Emma, how do you feel about if you 0:54:24.040 --> 0:54:26.360 want to kind of give a breakdown of the city's 0:54:26.360 --> 0:54:28.280 policy and then I can kind of give a breakdown 0:54:28.280 --> 0:54:30.240 into what that translates into on the ground. 0:54:30.760 --> 0:54:35.880 Yeah, So this is like, it's kind of a complicated situation. 0:54:36.200 --> 0:54:40.520 But the city has what's what they call their Encampment 0:54:40.719 --> 0:54:47.160 Management policy, and it was initially passed in I believe 0:54:47.239 --> 0:54:52.200 twenty twenty, but it's gone through like several evolutions over 0:54:52.280 --> 0:54:57.520 the past ten years or so, and it is related 0:54:57.800 --> 0:55:03.880 to different Supreme in Court cases and the settlement that 0:55:03.960 --> 0:55:10.960 I mentioned earlier. So this policy, it provides certain very 0:55:11.120 --> 0:55:16.839 limited protections for people who are homeless in the city limits. 0:55:17.200 --> 0:55:23.960 The city is required by this policy to offer shelter. 0:55:24.880 --> 0:55:30.080 I believe it's a week for any person who's subject 0:55:30.120 --> 0:55:34.640 to one of their encampment closures. And also we mentioned 0:55:34.680 --> 0:55:38.920 the bag intag policy. So if somebody, you know, they 0:55:39.200 --> 0:55:43.680 are evicted and they move somewhere outside with the tent, 0:55:43.880 --> 0:55:47.640 they bring all of their possessions with them, they are 0:55:48.280 --> 0:55:54.040 provided with I believe three foot by three foot like 0:55:54.600 --> 0:55:59.520 storage space. And this facility that is super inaccessible and 0:55:59.600 --> 0:56:03.520 kind of like, I don't even know if it's actually real, 0:56:03.840 --> 0:56:06.560 to be honest, because it's just like nobody ever. I've 0:56:06.560 --> 0:56:09.720 never heard of anybody actually like getting their stuff stored 0:56:09.800 --> 0:56:14.200 and getting back. But technically that is a possibility. However, 0:56:14.239 --> 0:56:15.880 the city will only hold on to it for so 0:56:16.080 --> 0:56:19.360 long before they throw it away. And then the last 0:56:19.800 --> 0:56:25.440 protection or provision is the city was until recently supposed 0:56:25.480 --> 0:56:30.440 to provide people with shelter. So a few different Supreme 0:56:30.480 --> 0:56:35.319 Court cases are behind that provision specifically, and I think 0:56:35.360 --> 0:56:38.600 a lot of cities kind of had a similar policy 0:56:38.680 --> 0:56:42.560 framework that they were following until the Grant's Pass ruling, 0:56:43.239 --> 0:56:46.000 and I guess maybe we don't need to get into 0:56:46.200 --> 0:56:50.879 that too much, but basically, the whole idea of that 0:56:51.160 --> 0:56:56.600 policy was like, if somebody is outside the thing outside 0:56:56.719 --> 0:57:02.560 and the city suites them, they have to provide them 0:57:02.640 --> 0:57:08.000 with some kind of alternative accommodation, because according to like 0:57:08.080 --> 0:57:12.759 the Ninth District Court, it was consideredly cruel and unusual 0:57:12.800 --> 0:57:19.680 punishment to penalyze somebody for being homeless without offering them 0:57:19.760 --> 0:57:24.920 some kind of temporary like accommodations, And so that was 0:57:25.640 --> 0:57:32.720 more or less the city's nominal framework for several years basically, 0:57:33.440 --> 0:57:38.440 and the degree to which they actually followed these policies, 0:57:38.800 --> 0:57:44.080 you know, they really didn't, except for in certain situations 0:57:44.160 --> 0:57:49.080 where there are like, for instance, legal advocates who will 0:57:49.360 --> 0:57:54.680 file injunctions to stop the city from doing a sweep 0:57:55.440 --> 0:58:00.080 on the basis of like failure to provide an alternative accommodation. 0:58:00.960 --> 0:58:07.720 And typically those arise when there is a very large 0:58:08.160 --> 0:58:14.320 encampment clearing operation that is scheduled and a contentious issue. 0:58:14.640 --> 0:58:16.439 You know, a lot of the time, for instance, they'll 0:58:16.440 --> 0:58:22.720 be people staying on city or like California state land 0:58:23.160 --> 0:58:26.520 and the city will like force them to move because 0:58:26.520 --> 0:58:29.880 of some development project that they're planning to do. And 0:58:29.960 --> 0:58:34.080 so in those situations when the media has kind of 0:58:34.200 --> 0:58:39.280 narrowed their their focus and begun like discussing some of 0:58:39.320 --> 0:58:42.680 this stuff and the local press, then like something like 0:58:42.760 --> 0:58:48.400 that became possible. But after the Grants Past ruling this 0:58:48.600 --> 0:58:54.280 past year, the city was no longer like obligated under 0:58:54.320 --> 0:59:01.440 federal law to follow those policies, and in September of 0:59:01.560 --> 0:59:07.520 last year, the late mayor Shankal she issued an executive 0:59:07.840 --> 0:59:12.680 order that more or less like just totally rendered that 0:59:12.880 --> 0:59:19.640 policy framework irrelevant. So she put forth a new framework 0:59:19.720 --> 0:59:26.040 that allows the city to sweep encampments under a tiered 0:59:26.240 --> 0:59:34.200 system of what are called emergency suites. So if for instance, 0:59:34.800 --> 0:59:41.439 a encampment is blocking a roadway or a sidewalk, then 0:59:41.600 --> 0:59:46.440 it is a hazard to the public quote unquote, or 0:59:46.520 --> 0:59:49.960 if it's somebody has a tent that is up against 0:59:50.160 --> 0:59:53.640 a building of some sort, it's a fire hazard. And 0:59:53.720 --> 0:59:57.520 so in this tiered system, there's like different levels of 0:59:58.000 --> 1:00:01.880 safety hazards that they're doing. And basically what that looks 1:00:01.920 --> 1:00:06.640 like is like a fire marshal and the city administrator 1:00:06.720 --> 1:00:11.760 will convene after somebody calls in a complaint about somebody 1:00:11.800 --> 1:00:16.160 that's staying outside by their business. And with the fire 1:00:16.200 --> 1:00:18.760 hazard one, I believe that they can just sweep without 1:00:18.840 --> 1:00:23.479 any prior notice, whereas the other two there is some 1:00:24.800 --> 1:00:29.280 level of notice that they're technically required to provide. But yeah, 1:00:29.320 --> 1:00:34.840 so the shelter provisions and the notice and storage like it, 1:00:34.920 --> 1:00:39.320 they're technically still supposed to follow that by their own 1:00:39.760 --> 1:00:45.440 city resolution, but there is this provision that like, if 1:00:45.840 --> 1:00:51.440 for instance, they issue somebody like a no or a 1:00:51.480 --> 1:00:55.440 one hour notice to leave because of like a fire hazard, 1:00:55.520 --> 1:00:58.960 and like advocates can't make it there because they don't 1:00:58.960 --> 1:01:02.440 really know they know but knows it's happening. Then the 1:01:02.480 --> 1:01:07.120 city can just do that and not offer people anything. Right, 1:01:07.240 --> 1:01:12.960 So these policies have the effect of disempowering our ability 1:01:13.000 --> 1:01:18.200 to respond to like a scheduled operation, Then the city 1:01:18.440 --> 1:01:22.560 can really just do whatever they want because nobody's watching 1:01:22.600 --> 1:01:24.040 what they're doing. 1:01:24.640 --> 1:01:25.920 And I guess we can. I think we can take 1:01:25.920 --> 1:01:30.320 this here towards something I think probably good to start 1:01:30.360 --> 1:01:32.280 closing on, which is like, what can people actually do 1:01:32.400 --> 1:01:32.840 about this? 1:01:33.560 --> 1:01:35.720 First of all, I think listening to all of this, 1:01:35.800 --> 1:01:37.840 it can be really easy to feel disempowered and to 1:01:37.840 --> 1:01:39.520 feel like, you know, the walls are closing in and 1:01:39.640 --> 1:01:43.640 there's nothing that we can do. And that remains not 1:01:43.720 --> 1:01:46.320 the case, you know. I think people should feel empowered 1:01:46.360 --> 1:01:50.400 to be able to physically intervene, because the most effective 1:01:50.400 --> 1:01:53.440 way of physically intervening with this kind of violence is 1:01:53.480 --> 1:01:57.760 to commit to relationship building. Something that I've talked about 1:01:57.760 --> 1:02:01.320 a lot with sort of like fellow advocates and folks 1:02:01.360 --> 1:02:03.960 that are kind of involved in like sweeps response and 1:02:04.040 --> 1:02:08.479 crisis response in Oakland, is that the one thing that 1:02:09.040 --> 1:02:12.160 the city cannot take away from us, that we have 1:02:12.200 --> 1:02:16.000 an advantage over them in is relationship building. Part of 1:02:16.040 --> 1:02:19.240 the reason that, for example, the Operation Dignity employees are 1:02:19.240 --> 1:02:21.840 so inefficient and so you know, seemingly bad at their 1:02:21.920 --> 1:02:23.400 jobs is not just the fact that they don't have 1:02:23.440 --> 1:02:26.080 anything to offer, but also because everybody on the street 1:02:26.080 --> 1:02:28.360 knows they're full of shit because they never show up 1:02:28.360 --> 1:02:32.880 with anything real. And addressing house people in particular right, like, 1:02:33.040 --> 1:02:35.000 one of the things to get out of is sort 1:02:35.040 --> 1:02:37.840 of like the savior mentality or the guilt mentality of like, oh, 1:02:37.880 --> 1:02:39.760 like I don't have any housing to offer, therefore I 1:02:39.800 --> 1:02:41.800 can't do anything, Like I can't fix the problem, I 1:02:41.800 --> 1:02:44.600 can't fix the roots, so I can't do anything. In reality, 1:02:44.640 --> 1:02:48.000 all you really need to do is to learn to 1:02:48.040 --> 1:02:50.960 set that mentality aside and show up and like start 1:02:51.080 --> 1:02:53.320 meeting folks where they're at, Start meeting your neighbors where 1:02:53.320 --> 1:02:56.120 they're at, start building relationships. You need to know, like 1:02:56.160 --> 1:03:00.920 if you live in a particular neighborhood to yourself, I 1:03:01.000 --> 1:03:03.400 need to know that if any un housed person within 1:03:03.440 --> 1:03:07.080 a mile radius of my home was disappeared, I would 1:03:07.160 --> 1:03:08.880 need to I would need to know, you know what 1:03:08.880 --> 1:03:10.600 I mean, Like I would want to know if that happens. 1:03:10.600 --> 1:03:12.360 So if you go out with that understanding that you're 1:03:12.400 --> 1:03:16.720 starting to build lifelong relationships with the folks that are 1:03:16.760 --> 1:03:19.160 living outside in your neighborhood, ideally a lot of other 1:03:19.200 --> 1:03:20.919 people in your neighborhood too, you know what I mean. 1:03:21.000 --> 1:03:26.120 But like, what they're banking on is right now, while 1:03:26.480 --> 1:03:28.560 while they're still trying to use a pr cover for 1:03:28.600 --> 1:03:31.320 what they're doing, what they're banking on is people not 1:03:31.400 --> 1:03:34.040 talking to each other, people not finding out about the abuses, 1:03:34.120 --> 1:03:37.000 people not finding out about the violations, people not being there, 1:03:37.520 --> 1:03:43.200 and people not having relationships that will remain strong even 1:03:43.240 --> 1:03:46.960 as they try to physically scatter people's communities. And what 1:03:47.000 --> 1:03:50.200 you can do to start is start investing in those relationships. 1:03:50.240 --> 1:03:52.600 Make sure you know what people's names are, make sure 1:03:52.800 --> 1:03:56.040 you would know if somebody's routine was suddenly disrupted. Hey, 1:03:56.080 --> 1:03:59.320 Becky used to be on that corner, you know, every 1:03:59.360 --> 1:04:01.200 couple days of weekend. Now I never see him anymore? 1:04:01.240 --> 1:04:03.479 What happened to him? And I think you can start there, 1:04:03.560 --> 1:04:05.680 and there's much more that you can concretely do. I mean, 1:04:05.920 --> 1:04:07.840 one of the ways that I'm accustomed to showing up 1:04:07.840 --> 1:04:11.160 at this point is direct on the ground sweep's response. 1:04:11.320 --> 1:04:13.920 So we're still able to keep track currently of what 1:04:13.960 --> 1:04:16.280 their schedule is on a weekly basis more or less 1:04:16.280 --> 1:04:18.680 Like there's definitely operations we don't find out about until 1:04:18.680 --> 1:04:21.240 after the fact, but the majority of their weekday operations 1:04:21.280 --> 1:04:23.880 we do still know about ahead of time, and so 1:04:24.280 --> 1:04:26.200 we'll show up. We'll make sure we get there before 1:04:26.200 --> 1:04:28.560 the city does, so like by eight am ideally right, 1:04:28.640 --> 1:04:30.360 Like we show up, talk to people, will be like 1:04:30.400 --> 1:04:32.760 what do you need? Do you need physical help moving 1:04:32.760 --> 1:04:35.160 your belongings out of the eviction zone. Do you need 1:04:35.680 --> 1:04:37.600 to borrow somebody's phone so that you can call somebody 1:04:37.640 --> 1:04:39.040 who said they were going to come help you. Do 1:04:39.080 --> 1:04:41.920 you need help pushing or pulling your vehicle? Any number 1:04:41.920 --> 1:04:44.360 of things really, but just like being willing to show 1:04:44.440 --> 1:04:47.680 up and ask questions about necessarily knowing what answers you're 1:04:47.680 --> 1:04:50.400 going to get, and being down to follow up and 1:04:50.480 --> 1:04:52.640 like do aftercare with people and chicken on folks and 1:04:52.680 --> 1:04:55.120 like keep building those relationships. I think that those are 1:04:55.120 --> 1:04:57.400 the building blocks of the organizing that we're going to 1:04:57.480 --> 1:04:59.680 need to be doing in the future, because you know, 1:04:59.680 --> 1:05:01.280 what this he is counting on is that they're going 1:05:01.360 --> 1:05:04.120 to be able to successfully create a scapegoat. Right. They 1:05:04.160 --> 1:05:07.080 want to create like a faceless, nameless mass of people 1:05:07.120 --> 1:05:09.080 that they can pin all their problems on and then 1:05:09.160 --> 1:05:12.200 incarce rate. And the best thing that we can do 1:05:12.280 --> 1:05:14.400 is make sure that they can't successfully do that, because 1:05:14.400 --> 1:05:16.080 we all have relationships to each other. 1:05:16.600 --> 1:05:21.919 Yeah, I really appreciate those sentiments. Yet, and I think 1:05:22.040 --> 1:05:27.720 like the Oakland like advocates doing like eviction defense for 1:05:27.960 --> 1:05:32.880 people who are living outside. It's grown in size and 1:05:33.040 --> 1:05:38.080 like capacity quite a bit in the past year, and 1:05:38.880 --> 1:05:42.160 like the city has noticed that, so they've actually like 1:05:42.640 --> 1:05:47.480 they've passed various resolutions and honestly, a lot of their 1:05:47.680 --> 1:05:53.320 practices and their policies, like their encampment management team, they 1:05:54.040 --> 1:05:59.680 seem to be like responding to the increasing effectiveness of 1:06:00.080 --> 1:06:06.320 this response, just like network of community defense. And so 1:06:06.360 --> 1:06:08.720 I think that like all of those things are are 1:06:08.840 --> 1:06:16.480 so important, especially as the term regime starts to eliminate 1:06:16.600 --> 1:06:21.680 the very like modest social safety net that there was. 1:06:22.320 --> 1:06:26.120 And you know, before we end this conversation, I just 1:06:26.200 --> 1:06:31.280 want to emphasize that in Oakland, like a majority of 1:06:31.280 --> 1:06:38.640 the people who are homeless and are subject to state violence. 1:06:39.480 --> 1:06:45.360 They are non white, mostly black, and are homeless in 1:06:45.480 --> 1:06:51.440 neighborhoods where they used to be housed. And so the 1:06:51.480 --> 1:06:56.520 gentrification that has happened, particularly in like West Oakland, and 1:06:56.880 --> 1:07:03.680 the like influx of high end tech workers that displaced 1:07:03.720 --> 1:07:09.000 them and moved into their family homes, they are the 1:07:09.040 --> 1:07:13.040 same people who are calling three one one to push 1:07:13.120 --> 1:07:16.520 the city to displace them again, but from a tent 1:07:16.920 --> 1:07:20.280 or a car this time. And I think it's it's 1:07:20.400 --> 1:07:25.920 just so so important that particularly like housed people try 1:07:26.000 --> 1:07:31.680 to tap into the networks of community defense that exist 1:07:31.800 --> 1:07:35.920 in their areas. I'm sure that most cities probably have 1:07:36.200 --> 1:07:42.880 something comparable to Oakland, but with the measures that we're seeing, 1:07:43.040 --> 1:07:47.880 cities begin to take, such as in Fremont, which is 1:07:48.120 --> 1:07:53.520 about thirty minutes south of Oakland, where they basically banned 1:07:53.800 --> 1:07:59.760 or criminalized mutual aid with unhoused people. So you can 1:08:00.080 --> 1:08:04.040 get one thousand dollars fine or for six months in 1:08:04.200 --> 1:08:10.680 jail for dating and a betting a homeless person. And 1:08:10.960 --> 1:08:12.880 you know, it's an extremely vague. 1:08:12.960 --> 1:08:16.559 Law, so like giving someone a blanket could fall under this, 1:08:17.000 --> 1:08:18.479 so you could be fined or put in jail for 1:08:18.520 --> 1:08:21.719 giving an unhouse personal blanket and free month currently. 1:08:22.040 --> 1:08:26.920 So it's very important that people try to be aware 1:08:26.960 --> 1:08:31.879 of their city government, how they're maybe passing anti homeless 1:08:31.960 --> 1:08:37.280 measures and they're in their cities and trying to mobilize 1:08:37.800 --> 1:08:39.919 against against that from happening. 1:08:40.600 --> 1:08:42.160 I also have one more thing to add to that. 1:08:42.200 --> 1:08:46.559 I'm so sorry, just specifically for anybody, for anybody thinking 1:08:46.560 --> 1:08:52.320 about getting involved or organizing strategically around community defense, sweep defense, 1:08:53.080 --> 1:08:56.240 whatever that looks like in your particular area, I would say, 1:08:56.520 --> 1:08:58.760 first of all, especially if you're a house person in 1:08:58.760 --> 1:09:02.880 this case, like invest valuable time into getting to know 1:09:02.920 --> 1:09:05.400 people on an interpersonal level and getting to know people's 1:09:05.400 --> 1:09:07.559 needs first, instead of falling into the trap of sort 1:09:07.600 --> 1:09:10.360 of imposing what you might have learned through like other 1:09:10.560 --> 1:09:13.760 sort of direct action organizing, because this is not that 1:09:13.880 --> 1:09:16.439 you know, like I think, yeah, first of all, just 1:09:16.479 --> 1:09:19.160 making sure that you're being you're organizing is being led 1:09:19.240 --> 1:09:22.360 by the needs of you know, homemost residents that are 1:09:22.360 --> 1:09:24.400 expressing what they need to you. But also on top 1:09:24.439 --> 1:09:27.880 of that, when it comes to this particular draconian waves 1:09:27.920 --> 1:09:30.839 of legislation that are being passed around like anti homeless 1:09:30.880 --> 1:09:34.600 laws and stuff. Don't preemptively obey, you know what I mean, Like, 1:09:34.680 --> 1:09:36.880 if you live in Fremont, don't preemptively say, oh fuck, 1:09:36.920 --> 1:09:39.519 I better stop passing out blankets. Because what we've seen 1:09:39.560 --> 1:09:43.679 in Oakland with the particular iterations of anti homeless legislation 1:09:43.760 --> 1:09:45.960 that they've passed here is that just because they've passed 1:09:46.040 --> 1:09:48.920 legislation doesn't mean that they feel confident enforcing it yet. 1:09:49.200 --> 1:09:52.120 And what you need to do really is step up 1:09:52.200 --> 1:09:55.160 real hard and show them you can't enforce this the 1:09:55.160 --> 1:09:57.320 way that you want to, and they're going to push back. 1:09:57.360 --> 1:09:59.320 There's going to be this back and forth interplay that 1:09:59.360 --> 1:10:01.560 we've seen, you know, for example in Oakland with the 1:10:01.600 --> 1:10:03.760 safe works and ordinance, which we can probably get into 1:10:03.800 --> 1:10:06.040 another time because it's way too much to get into 1:10:06.120 --> 1:10:08.280 right now, I think at this point in the episode. 1:10:08.320 --> 1:10:11.160 But it's a two way street. It's this fight that 1:10:11.200 --> 1:10:13.400 you have to play to show them just because you've 1:10:13.400 --> 1:10:15.880 passed this legislation doesn't mean you can enforce it in 1:10:15.920 --> 1:10:18.479 a particular way. You have to give them something to 1:10:18.520 --> 1:10:20.559 fight against, you know what I mean. So that's just 1:10:20.600 --> 1:10:22.600 the other piece, yeah. 1:10:22.240 --> 1:10:24.360 Yeah, and like and the rest of their policy is 1:10:24.680 --> 1:10:27.840 absolutely one hundred percent evidence that if the state doesn't 1:10:27.880 --> 1:10:30.080 want to follow the law, it isn't real. But that 1:10:30.160 --> 1:10:32.760 also means that, like, if they can't enforce a law 1:10:33.040 --> 1:10:35.640 like it also effectively ceases to exist. That's just the 1:10:35.680 --> 1:10:36.880 sort of balance of forces here. 1:10:36.960 --> 1:10:40.920 Yeah, yeah, yeah, And there is a lawsuit currently against that, 1:10:41.080 --> 1:10:44.640 and it sounds like, you know, the City of Fremont 1:10:44.920 --> 1:10:48.280 is probably going to be removing that aiding in a 1:10:48.360 --> 1:10:55.240 betting clause from the resolution, but because that specific provision 1:10:55.880 --> 1:10:59.080 is actually like in the city's municipal code as a 1:10:59.120 --> 1:11:03.640 general provision provision, so you know, even if they do 1:11:03.760 --> 1:11:08.200 remove it, charges could still be brought against somebody. So like, 1:11:08.360 --> 1:11:12.639 really the entire ordinance needs to be eliminated all together. 1:11:13.439 --> 1:11:15.800 Yeah, I guess do you have anything else that you 1:11:15.840 --> 1:11:18.280 want to make sure that you get in before we 1:11:18.479 --> 1:11:18.960 close up? 1:11:20.360 --> 1:11:23.800 I don't think so, not nothing that comes to mind. 1:11:23.840 --> 1:11:26.400 But yeah, again, I super appreciate you having us on 1:11:26.600 --> 1:11:30.960 to talk about this. Yeah, you know, shit is rough 1:11:31.040 --> 1:11:35.080 right now. I think for me personally, it's been really 1:11:35.120 --> 1:11:42.160 helpful to direct my energy towards things in my social 1:11:42.200 --> 1:11:46.439 network in a way that's like constructive and helpful to others. 1:11:46.520 --> 1:11:52.479 So I would definitely suggest if you're feeling like any 1:11:52.600 --> 1:11:58.240 despair or like worried about becoming like black pilled or whatever, like, yeah, 1:11:58.400 --> 1:12:01.559 just try to tap in and focus on things that 1:12:01.600 --> 1:12:06.320 are happening in your community. It's good for you and 1:12:06.360 --> 1:12:09.560 it's good for the people in your community. 1:12:09.920 --> 1:12:13.960 Yeah, just seconding that, I think like being able to 1:12:14.600 --> 1:12:17.879 tap in specifically with like the types of unhoused organizing 1:12:17.920 --> 1:12:21.280 and underground economies that exist wherever unhoused people exist, and 1:12:21.400 --> 1:12:24.880 like being able to like tap into that and like 1:12:25.560 --> 1:12:27.439 you know, again like speaking from the perspective of a 1:12:27.439 --> 1:12:29.760 house person, like really humble yourself and learn from that. 1:12:29.880 --> 1:12:32.759 Like you're going to learn a whole lot more relevant 1:12:32.760 --> 1:12:36.080 life skills just hanging out in social settings with people 1:12:36.120 --> 1:12:38.000 in the street than you are in any other area 1:12:38.040 --> 1:12:40.439 of your life. So just go balls to the wall, 1:12:40.520 --> 1:12:42.799 just start hanging out, just like spend all your time loitering, 1:12:42.880 --> 1:12:44.840 Like just that's that's where we need to be right now. 1:12:44.920 --> 1:12:47.320 Is loitering in the street. That's where the organizing is happening. 1:12:47.520 --> 1:12:52.439 So yeah, street claim space, Oh yeah, this. 1:12:52.400 --> 1:12:54.760 Has been ni could happen here. Go loiter on street 1:12:54.800 --> 1:12:57.599 quarters and make the state's life miserable until it cannot 1:12:57.960 --> 1:12:59.320 do the things that is doing right now. 1:13:20.040 --> 1:13:23.599 Oh, welcome to it could happen here, a podcast about 1:13:23.600 --> 1:13:26.920 how it's happened here and it continues to happen here. 1:13:27.640 --> 1:13:30.479 Sorry about that, but we're not changing the name of 1:13:30.520 --> 1:13:35.000 the podcast, you know, because we're not anyway. I got 1:13:35.080 --> 1:13:37.120 Jams stout with me, I got Garrison Davis with me. 1:13:37.720 --> 1:13:39.280 Woot woot, huzzah. 1:13:40.400 --> 1:13:44.760 So the past few weeks, myself is as well as 1:13:44.920 --> 1:13:48.479 probably everyone else on this call, has been getting a 1:13:48.479 --> 1:13:52.920 lot of questions from listeners via the various social media 1:13:53.000 --> 1:13:57.280 apps that we damage ourselves by logging into on a 1:13:57.600 --> 1:14:02.080 much more than needed frequent basis. But one question that's 1:14:02.120 --> 1:14:04.120 been kind of on a lot of people's minds and 1:14:04.160 --> 1:14:07.720 something that we've been discussing as like a group, is 1:14:07.880 --> 1:14:11.680 the idea of should you flee the country? 1:14:11.840 --> 1:14:12.800 Is the party over? 1:14:13.000 --> 1:14:15.719 Do we need to use the time we have now 1:14:16.160 --> 1:14:20.599 to get out? The Trump administration is cracking down on 1:14:21.200 --> 1:14:25.240 a whole bunch of groups of already marginalized people, people 1:14:25.280 --> 1:14:29.840 with fewer resources, immigrants, people who are here for asylum, 1:14:30.479 --> 1:14:34.599 trans people, queer people in general. It's getting pretty scary 1:14:34.640 --> 1:14:40.479 out there, and the thought crosses your mind, maybe there's 1:14:40.479 --> 1:14:44.320 somewhere else that's better. And this has always been a 1:14:44.360 --> 1:14:47.080 tough question for us to kind of think about because 1:14:47.560 --> 1:14:50.360 we don't want to like inspire panic. That's not the 1:14:50.439 --> 1:14:52.320 purpose of what we do here. 1:14:52.720 --> 1:14:55.280 You should try to spread calm when times are bad 1:14:55.320 --> 1:14:56.360 if you can here. 1:14:56.800 --> 1:15:00.720 But the situation politically in the country and in many 1:15:00.760 --> 1:15:03.680 parts of the world right now is extremely fraud and 1:15:03.840 --> 1:15:08.240 it does feel how closer towards like the bad nightmare 1:15:08.280 --> 1:15:11.320 scenario than kind of I've ever thought it has before. 1:15:12.240 --> 1:15:13.920 So it's so. 1:15:13.880 --> 1:15:15.000 It's a really tough question. 1:15:15.520 --> 1:15:17.280 Yeah, And I think what we're going to be doing 1:15:17.360 --> 1:15:19.960 this episode is just kind of talking about this question 1:15:20.439 --> 1:15:24.280 and our thoughts around, you know, various responses to this 1:15:24.320 --> 1:15:26.880 line of thought, And I guess Robert kind of has 1:15:26.960 --> 1:15:32.960 a baseline like, kind of quasi answer that I think 1:15:33.000 --> 1:15:34.679 we can use as a jumping off point. 1:15:35.640 --> 1:15:39.519 You know, if you're someone who is being targeted, you know, 1:15:39.720 --> 1:15:42.080 or in a community of people who are being targeted, 1:15:42.520 --> 1:15:46.200 you know, you're a naturalized citizen, your hair on a 1:15:46.240 --> 1:15:50.800 green card, you're trans, you're any kind any of the 1:15:50.800 --> 1:15:53.679 many different groups of people that are being targeted right now. 1:15:54.360 --> 1:15:57.599 And you have the opportunity to leave and you think 1:15:57.600 --> 1:16:00.000 that that's the right thing for you, and you should 1:16:00.000 --> 1:16:01.640 do it. You shouldn't feel bad about it. You know, 1:16:02.200 --> 1:16:04.559 if you've got a job that is in demand in 1:16:04.600 --> 1:16:08.559 other countries and you know the process and can start 1:16:08.600 --> 1:16:12.240 the process to like get residency somewhere else and work 1:16:12.479 --> 1:16:15.559 somewhere else, and you know, make your life work that way, 1:16:15.960 --> 1:16:18.000 then I don't think you should feel bad about doing that. 1:16:18.080 --> 1:16:20.240 If that's what you decide is the right thing for you. 1:16:21.000 --> 1:16:24.160 That said, it's not, it's just simply not going to 1:16:24.160 --> 1:16:27.880 be a realistic possibility for most people. What is more 1:16:27.920 --> 1:16:31.080 realistic for a lot of people is, for example, moving 1:16:31.080 --> 1:16:34.360 from states where the risk is higher to states where 1:16:34.400 --> 1:16:36.840 maybe the risk is lower. Hard to say how long 1:16:36.880 --> 1:16:39.439 the risk will be lower, you know, but I, you know, 1:16:39.479 --> 1:16:42.240 I certainly that's more achievable for a lot of people 1:16:42.280 --> 1:16:44.719 than getting set up in a foreign country, as James 1:16:44.760 --> 1:16:47.320 will talk about, if your hope is just I'm going 1:16:47.400 --> 1:16:49.759 to try to go somewhere else like Europe or whatever 1:16:49.840 --> 1:16:52.720 as an asylum seeker. As again, James will go into 1:16:52.720 --> 1:16:55.479 more detail on life ain't easy for asylum seekers, and 1:16:55.520 --> 1:16:58.640 that's not really again, it may not be nearly as 1:16:58.720 --> 1:17:00.719 much of an option as you think that is right now, 1:17:01.120 --> 1:17:03.240 I you know, had to go through kind of my 1:17:03.280 --> 1:17:05.680 own process after the election of like, well, am I 1:17:05.720 --> 1:17:09.320 going to like, you know, get my finances in order 1:17:09.360 --> 1:17:12.599 and move to another country and basically try to like 1:17:13.360 --> 1:17:16.080 pay my way into getting a visa somewhere like in Spain, 1:17:16.160 --> 1:17:18.880 which is an option for someone like me. And I 1:17:19.120 --> 1:17:21.559 came to the conclusion that like, nah, you know, if 1:17:21.600 --> 1:17:24.080 the worst case thing happens, I'd rather like die here 1:17:24.360 --> 1:17:28.520 or whatever. It's just not worth it, you know, to 1:17:28.560 --> 1:17:31.280 try to get out. So I'm committing to trying to 1:17:31.360 --> 1:17:33.960 like hold the line here with everybody basically that I 1:17:34.000 --> 1:17:35.640 love in the world, because like what else are you 1:17:35.680 --> 1:17:36.320 going to do? You know? 1:17:36.920 --> 1:17:40.120 Yeah, Like I will just say that, you know, I 1:17:40.240 --> 1:17:42.720 probably have met more asylum seekers than most people, you know, 1:17:43.160 --> 1:17:46.200 and it is one of the more miserable fates available 1:17:46.360 --> 1:17:49.800 to a human. It will if large numbers of people 1:17:49.840 --> 1:17:52.760 start leaving the US, only get worse. If you're someone 1:17:52.800 --> 1:17:58.080 who's a US citizen, you have probably not experienced much 1:17:58.120 --> 1:18:01.080 in the way of like strict immigration enforcement. If you 1:18:01.080 --> 1:18:02.920 have traveled around the world, right, you have one of 1:18:02.920 --> 1:18:05.720 the more high value passports in the world. You can 1:18:05.840 --> 1:18:08.439 you can go almost anywhere with a visa or in 1:18:08.479 --> 1:18:13.040 many cases without a visa. Seeking asylum is an extremely 1:18:13.360 --> 1:18:16.479 different process. If you think you're just going to get 1:18:16.479 --> 1:18:20.519 on a flight and leave and stay somewhere, like understand 1:18:20.520 --> 1:18:24.160 that many countries will probably begin to require reciprocal visas 1:18:24.160 --> 1:18:27.280 with the United States soon if we continue our current 1:18:27.320 --> 1:18:31.800 sort of pathway with by more isolationist immigration policy, and 1:18:31.840 --> 1:18:33.800 then you'll have to get that visa. And then you know, 1:18:33.800 --> 1:18:37.880 if you overstay, you will be subject to enforcement. The 1:18:37.920 --> 1:18:41.360 sense of permanence that you enjoy here might never be 1:18:41.520 --> 1:18:45.439 something you enjoy again. And that's just if you're able 1:18:45.520 --> 1:18:48.960 to fly somewhere, and so you try and overstay a 1:18:49.040 --> 1:18:51.600 visa or you try and apply for asylum. I have 1:18:52.320 --> 1:18:54.760 people I've met in every facet of my life, Like 1:18:54.800 --> 1:18:56.799 I know guys who I met as a bike racer 1:18:56.920 --> 1:18:58.920 who have applied for asylum. Guys I met a bike 1:18:58.960 --> 1:19:02.160 racer are staying on that bus in the UK. It 1:19:02.200 --> 1:19:06.559 is it is a miserable fate. And I think that's 1:19:06.600 --> 1:19:08.760 that I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying that 1:19:09.520 --> 1:19:12.360 you need to understand that it is highly unpleasant and 1:19:12.400 --> 1:19:15.719 it's tripped you of all dignity and in some places 1:19:15.760 --> 1:19:19.360 extists people of of like their lives right, people die migrating. 1:19:20.040 --> 1:19:24.320 It's also like incredibly expensive to do the things that 1:19:24.439 --> 1:19:26.800 migrants do because that everyone is trying to make a 1:19:26.840 --> 1:19:27.439 buck off them. 1:19:27.600 --> 1:19:27.760 Right. 1:19:28.080 --> 1:19:30.720 I was just talking on another podcast about how the 1:19:30.880 --> 1:19:32.960 journey that people took up through the Darien Gap who 1:19:32.960 --> 1:19:34.320 tried to come to the United States, it would have 1:19:34.320 --> 1:19:36.320 cost them way less just to fly, but they couldn't. 1:19:36.400 --> 1:19:39.000 They couldn't get the visas. Right. That doesn't mean like 1:19:39.040 --> 1:19:41.400 if you know, if you have a historical right to 1:19:41.479 --> 1:19:46.040 citizenship through various you know, certain people have rights to 1:19:46.080 --> 1:19:50.639 Spanish citizenship, or German citizenship or Irish. Irish is one 1:19:50.680 --> 1:19:53.599 that many people have access to. Yeah, why not? Why not? 1:19:53.920 --> 1:19:56.040 You know, if you have the financial resources, when not 1:19:56.080 --> 1:19:57.719 try and see where that will go? Why not begin 1:19:57.840 --> 1:19:58.960 pursuing that totally? 1:19:59.080 --> 1:19:59.439 Yeah? 1:19:59.760 --> 1:20:02.920 Sure, I think becoming a dual citizen, if you have 1:20:03.479 --> 1:20:07.479 the capability to, is a fantastic idea that I will 1:20:07.520 --> 1:20:09.320 like never dissuade someone from. 1:20:09.680 --> 1:20:09.760 No. 1:20:10.160 --> 1:20:11.479 I would go so far as to say, even if 1:20:11.520 --> 1:20:13.280 you plan to stay here. If you have the ability 1:20:13.320 --> 1:20:17.720 to get dual citizenship, you should be pursuing that right now, absolutely, Like. 1:20:18.120 --> 1:20:19.200 Is it's something that you should do. 1:20:19.240 --> 1:20:24.599 It's often not hideously expensive, and it's something that might 1:20:25.200 --> 1:20:27.920 be Yeah, you have options, and options are good. 1:20:28.320 --> 1:20:28.559 Yeah. 1:20:28.600 --> 1:20:32.920 I am very hesitant to like openly call for like 1:20:33.000 --> 1:20:34.599 now is the time to leave the country. I do 1:20:34.600 --> 1:20:38.120 not feel comfortable saying that for a number of reasons, 1:20:38.439 --> 1:20:40.519 like some of them are or more political, as in 1:20:40.560 --> 1:20:43.680 like I don't really subscribe to a politics of escape, 1:20:44.280 --> 1:20:46.759 even the idea of like fleeing states. 1:20:46.800 --> 1:20:48.320 I feel a little bit iffy about. 1:20:48.400 --> 1:20:50.679 Now. There's certainly, you know a lot of cases where 1:20:50.720 --> 1:20:53.640 families are trying to move, you know, outside states that 1:20:53.720 --> 1:20:57.320 have more restricted access to trans healthcare for minors towards 1:20:57.320 --> 1:21:00.120 more friendly states, which I totally understand. 1:21:00.479 --> 1:21:03.760 But I have greatly enjoyed getting. 1:21:03.439 --> 1:21:05.920 To know a whole bunch of trans people in the South, 1:21:06.160 --> 1:21:08.680 and a whole bunch of trans people here are not 1:21:09.240 --> 1:21:12.519 willing to leave their home. This is this is their 1:21:12.520 --> 1:21:14.280 home and it always will be and they're going to 1:21:14.320 --> 1:21:18.400 stay and fight for it even as things get you know, harder, 1:21:18.920 --> 1:21:20.800 And I don't think you should write these people off. 1:21:20.840 --> 1:21:22.960 I don't think you should write these places off. These 1:21:23.040 --> 1:21:26.880 these places are still a terrain of battle, and there 1:21:26.880 --> 1:21:28.639 are going to be places where trans people can still 1:21:28.680 --> 1:21:32.280 live and still live fulfilling lives in many cases. And 1:21:32.479 --> 1:21:34.960 that is that it's worth acknowledging, that's worth putting effort into. 1:21:35.560 --> 1:21:38.400 To the point that, like after the election, I was 1:21:38.439 --> 1:21:41.760 already considering maybe, you know, trying to travel around the 1:21:41.760 --> 1:21:45.160 country some more, And after this last election, my line 1:21:45.160 --> 1:21:47.479 of thought was way more on the side of I 1:21:47.520 --> 1:21:49.799 would actually like to spend as much time in Georgia 1:21:49.880 --> 1:21:52.439 as possible. I would actually want to stay in this 1:21:52.560 --> 1:21:56.080 South for as much as I can, because this is 1:21:56.120 --> 1:21:58.680 like not a place that I think people should be 1:21:58.720 --> 1:22:01.559 walking away from. And in some ways that does come 1:22:01.600 --> 1:22:04.599 from like a slightly privileged point of view for multiple reasons. 1:22:05.040 --> 1:22:07.640 As someone who's white and holds a Canadian passport as 1:22:07.680 --> 1:22:10.960 well as an American passport, that is, you know, something 1:22:11.080 --> 1:22:14.280 that I like to have as a back pocket option. 1:22:14.600 --> 1:22:17.000 But that's something I'm not like considering like at all, 1:22:17.080 --> 1:22:19.760 Like I do not want to move to Canada. All 1:22:19.800 --> 1:22:22.280 my friends are here, my life is here. There's certain 1:22:22.280 --> 1:22:25.280 scenarios where things get much much much worse, even though 1:22:25.320 --> 1:22:27.400 things are already getting quite bad, But there are certain 1:22:27.400 --> 1:22:31.240 scenarios where, yes, that passport will come in handy. And 1:22:31.240 --> 1:22:34.240 that's why I do encourage, like, no matter what you 1:22:34.240 --> 1:22:36.200 should you should see if you have any options to 1:22:36.479 --> 1:22:39.200 become a citizen in more than one country. It is 1:22:39.240 --> 1:22:41.479 a great thing to be. It's it's good to not 1:22:41.520 --> 1:22:44.400 be just tied down to one place. But the process 1:22:44.439 --> 1:22:47.160 of trying to to you know, immigrate somewhere where you 1:22:47.200 --> 1:22:51.080 do not have a citizenship is already quite challenging. And 1:22:51.160 --> 1:22:53.719 we will probably discuss some some more of this later 1:22:54.080 --> 1:22:56.320 because I think there's also a sort of like onion 1:22:56.400 --> 1:22:59.439 of a threat of people when you're when you're thinking 1:22:59.479 --> 1:23:02.519 of this question and like which people will will be 1:23:02.840 --> 1:23:05.720 or are currently being targeted the most, and how that 1:23:05.800 --> 1:23:08.560 kind of affects the options in terms of like relocation 1:23:09.040 --> 1:23:12.600 to places view it as like safer havens. And I 1:23:12.720 --> 1:23:17.720 like to jumpstart that onion of protection discussion. After these messages, 1:23:27.960 --> 1:23:28.880 we're back. 1:23:28.600 --> 1:23:31.479 And we're talking about onions which you need to wear 1:23:31.479 --> 1:23:34.439 around your neck to protect you from evil spirit scarce, 1:23:34.439 --> 1:23:36.080 And that's what you were getting at, right, Yes. 1:23:36.280 --> 1:23:39.559 Une move on to the next. 1:23:39.320 --> 1:23:44.160 Topic where five different onions to drive away the various 1:23:44.200 --> 1:23:48.280 secret police forces trying to hunt down individuals. Yes, speaking 1:23:48.360 --> 1:23:50.880 of I guess like the big thing I'm thinking about 1:23:50.960 --> 1:23:54.679 right now, or one of some big things, is there's 1:23:54.720 --> 1:23:58.320 different levels of scrutiny being placed on individuals currently in 1:23:58.360 --> 1:24:00.800 the United States. One you have like people who are 1:24:00.800 --> 1:24:04.360 completely undocumented, right. You have people who are who are 1:24:04.439 --> 1:24:08.000 currently here on like valid asylum claims who are about 1:24:08.000 --> 1:24:10.120 to get those rights like stripped away. I'm trying to 1:24:10.120 --> 1:24:13.280 think of like the list of refugees that were allowed 1:24:13.320 --> 1:24:15.960 under Biden that are now like like imminently going to 1:24:15.960 --> 1:24:18.880 get their stuff stripped away from the Trump administration. I 1:24:18.920 --> 1:24:23.920 know Venezuelan, Yeah, I know you run Haitian immigrants are 1:24:23.960 --> 1:24:27.559 another off God, but groups that have that have been 1:24:27.600 --> 1:24:29.960 able to come here the past few years that are 1:24:29.960 --> 1:24:32.360 going to be now seen as like quote unquote illegal 1:24:32.720 --> 1:24:36.360 by the White House and Immigration Customs Enforcement. You then 1:24:36.439 --> 1:24:39.800 have student visa holders which are already like currently under 1:24:39.840 --> 1:24:43.639 threat getting visas taken away. You have people on work visas. 1:24:43.720 --> 1:24:46.600 You have green card holders, and you even have naturalized 1:24:46.680 --> 1:24:51.960 citizens and among just regular citizens a naturalists, I guess 1:24:51.960 --> 1:24:54.559 people that were born here, you have other factors that 1:24:54.560 --> 1:24:58.720 could lead to potential hardship based on political affiliation or 1:24:58.760 --> 1:25:01.360 based on gender and sectional reality. And that's kind of 1:25:01.360 --> 1:25:04.760 like the bracket breakdown I'm working off of. So as 1:25:04.800 --> 1:25:07.080 much as it's like dangerous to be like, you know, 1:25:07.120 --> 1:25:10.600 like a trans anarchist right in the United States, I 1:25:10.640 --> 1:25:13.599 think that is that is fairly different than a Haitian 1:25:13.600 --> 1:25:17.360 immigrant who's about to get like literally hunted down by ice, right, 1:25:17.680 --> 1:25:21.400 And these people have wildly different realities, wildly different options 1:25:21.400 --> 1:25:24.160 for how they're going to like handle this question and 1:25:24.200 --> 1:25:28.240 handle like the decision of you know, preemptively choosing to 1:25:28.360 --> 1:25:32.080 relocate somewhere else. James, do you have any kind of 1:25:32.080 --> 1:25:34.200 thoughts on this like onion? 1:25:34.320 --> 1:25:37.720 I guess yeah. I mean, I think you described it well, right, 1:25:37.760 --> 1:25:39.040 Like I think a lot of folks are for the 1:25:39.120 --> 1:25:42.320 first time finding themselves in that onion at all, right, 1:25:42.439 --> 1:25:46.280 and certainly with respect to like immigration enforcement or potentially 1:25:46.320 --> 1:25:49.800 being forced to leave this country. And I think it 1:25:49.920 --> 1:25:53.200 would be good maybe to to look at folks who 1:25:53.240 --> 1:25:55.439 have been there for a long time and look at 1:25:55.439 --> 1:25:58.080 how they've done right, Because there have been people whose 1:25:58.120 --> 1:26:03.280 existence was precarious in this country for decades. Right, Maybe 1:26:03.280 --> 1:26:05.519 we'd go back to nineteen ninety four in Operation Gatekeeper, 1:26:05.560 --> 1:26:08.040 Maybe we go back further whatever, I don't care. Maybe 1:26:08.040 --> 1:26:10.479 we go back to the operation whose name is also 1:26:10.520 --> 1:26:12.600 a slur in the nineteen thirties. And I'm not going to. 1:26:12.640 --> 1:26:16.200 Say I mean, and indigenous people here have, like for 1:26:16.840 --> 1:26:20.200 all of America, I'm sure have been been people that 1:26:20.280 --> 1:26:23.280 like exist in a wildly different reality than like, yeah, 1:26:23.760 --> 1:26:25.160 most US citizens, right. 1:26:25.240 --> 1:26:28.120 Yeah, where, Yes, this country is predicated on the genocide 1:26:28.120 --> 1:26:29.000 of indigenous people. 1:26:29.360 --> 1:26:31.640 Well, and even in the ways that they're the like 1:26:31.800 --> 1:26:36.439 continue to live here. It's it's like a different world from. 1:26:36.280 --> 1:26:39.120 Yeah, like that genocide is ongoing, Like it's a it's 1:26:39.120 --> 1:26:41.479 not a thing that stopped. Yeah, it's not a historical thing. 1:26:41.640 --> 1:26:44.200 It's the thing that exists. As long as this country exists. 1:26:44.720 --> 1:26:47.160 I would look to those people, right, Like you said, Garrison, 1:26:47.200 --> 1:26:51.080 Indigenous communities, Indigenous people continue to exist in this country 1:26:51.120 --> 1:26:53.920 despite the best efforts of this country to eradicate them. 1:26:54.160 --> 1:26:58.600 Undocumented communities, right, Migrant communities of mixed status have continued 1:26:58.600 --> 1:27:01.680 to exist for a very long time. And like the 1:27:01.720 --> 1:27:04.439 way that they have got through this is together, and 1:27:04.479 --> 1:27:06.519 that's the way that we will get through this too. 1:27:07.000 --> 1:27:10.839 When there have been threats to migrant communities, migrant communities 1:27:10.880 --> 1:27:12.760 have shown up for each other. Right, they're doing that 1:27:12.880 --> 1:27:15.640 right now. You see groups like Anon dela Barrio in 1:27:15.680 --> 1:27:19.160 San Diego right like going around announcing when there are 1:27:19.200 --> 1:27:22.639 ICE presence of ICE offices in the neighborhood. The way 1:27:22.720 --> 1:27:25.040 that they have got through it is through other people 1:27:25.080 --> 1:27:27.760 in positions of procarity, showing up for one another and 1:27:27.800 --> 1:27:30.559 taking care of one another. And if that is a 1:27:30.600 --> 1:27:35.920 new position for you, if finding yourself further along the 1:27:35.960 --> 1:27:39.680 intersectional matrix of oppression is new for you, then like 1:27:40.280 --> 1:27:43.800 it's scary. I do understand that that that procurity is petrifying, 1:27:44.360 --> 1:27:46.800 but understand that communities and people have been here for 1:27:46.840 --> 1:27:49.519 a long time and look at how they've got through it. 1:27:49.680 --> 1:27:52.760 And in queer communities too to a degree, have been 1:27:52.800 --> 1:27:55.080 persecuted in this country for a very long time and 1:27:55.120 --> 1:27:58.800 have developed ways of not just like existing, but also 1:27:58.840 --> 1:28:02.280 like continuing to and to joy and experience joy and 1:28:02.360 --> 1:28:05.880 not just like live in fear, because I think if 1:28:05.920 --> 1:28:08.599 you live in fear, like you've kind of given up 1:28:08.640 --> 1:28:10.920 to a degree, oh you've let them win. To agree, 1:28:10.920 --> 1:28:13.040 I should say, like, I do understand that being new 1:28:13.080 --> 1:28:15.679 to this is petrifying for people, and like I don't 1:28:15.680 --> 1:28:17.479 want to just say like, oh, you shouldn't be scared, 1:28:17.600 --> 1:28:20.720 or you know, you should look at how migrant communities 1:28:20.720 --> 1:28:23.479 have taken care of one another, but like now is 1:28:23.520 --> 1:28:26.800 the time to begin establishing solidarity as well. So like 1:28:26.840 --> 1:28:30.280 those communities which have been precarious for some time, they're 1:28:30.280 --> 1:28:33.440 not closed spaces, right, Like you can be in solidarity 1:28:33.479 --> 1:28:35.320 with them and you can learn from them, and I 1:28:35.360 --> 1:28:38.200 think that now is the time to do that, Like, 1:28:38.400 --> 1:28:42.000 now is the time to build stronger links. If you're 1:28:42.040 --> 1:28:44.840 really worried about things being really bad in this country, 1:28:44.840 --> 1:28:46.639 and you have good reason to be right, like. 1:28:46.680 --> 1:28:50.519 Oh, yeah, shit's fucked up and bullshit, yeah it's really 1:28:50.560 --> 1:28:51.840 fucking bad, really bad. 1:28:52.000 --> 1:28:54.799 Yeah, Like you know, we're sending people to labor camps. 1:28:55.120 --> 1:28:57.400 If you're scared, panicking thinking I got to get out 1:28:57.400 --> 1:28:58.360 of here, I get you. 1:28:59.120 --> 1:29:02.240 Yeah, No, I mean I think the thing that you 1:29:02.400 --> 1:29:06.160 should be doing, regardless of who you are, is you 1:29:06.160 --> 1:29:09.960 should be giving yourself options. You should be increasing the 1:29:10.000 --> 1:29:12.640 amount of options that you have, And like that is 1:29:12.680 --> 1:29:15.160 something that is never a bad idea. That is something 1:29:15.160 --> 1:29:18.280 that you can never do too early. It's something that 1:29:18.320 --> 1:29:20.680 you should have already been doing. Frankly, like I've been 1:29:20.720 --> 1:29:24.639 advocating for people to get passports, including an American passport, 1:29:24.840 --> 1:29:26.759 because that does make it easier to leave the country. 1:29:27.280 --> 1:29:28.240 You should be getting that. 1:29:28.320 --> 1:29:30.800 And it's going to be harder, especially if you're trends now, 1:29:30.840 --> 1:29:34.880 to get a passport that matches what you look like. Right, 1:29:35.600 --> 1:29:37.800 But this is still something I think is worth doing 1:29:37.840 --> 1:29:40.559 because it gives you an option, and you should be 1:29:40.600 --> 1:29:42.240 increasing the amount of options you have. 1:29:42.720 --> 1:29:45.640 Yeah, I think, yeah, it's never a bad thing. And 1:29:45.720 --> 1:29:49.519 like that community structure is an option too, right, Like 1:29:49.600 --> 1:29:51.599 people showing up for you and you showed up for them. 1:29:51.720 --> 1:29:53.840 That is one of your options. Don't forget that. And 1:29:53.880 --> 1:29:57.240 like that will also bring you join You will feel 1:29:57.280 --> 1:30:00.479 safer when you We're supposed to live in can munities. 1:30:00.479 --> 1:30:03.960 And like I you know, I've seen a lot of 1:30:04.320 --> 1:30:07.719 people in very difficult circumstances. And one of the Kurdish 1:30:07.720 --> 1:30:10.200 guys once said to me in the desert, he was like, 1:30:10.240 --> 1:30:13.120 whatever we do, we do together. And I thought that 1:30:13.160 --> 1:30:15.640 was very profound because they were at that time like 1:30:15.840 --> 1:30:18.040 dancing around a fire in the midst of what was 1:30:18.040 --> 1:30:21.040 like an open air concentration camp, you know. But if 1:30:21.040 --> 1:30:22.840 you can find a community, and you can find a 1:30:22.880 --> 1:30:25.599 way to continue to experience joy, then I promise that 1:30:25.640 --> 1:30:27.880 things won't be as bad as they seem right now. 1:30:28.280 --> 1:30:28.559 Yep. 1:30:29.080 --> 1:30:32.560 Within the Kurdish Shrina movement, there's a phrase that is 1:30:32.600 --> 1:30:35.080 commonly used a slogan. You could say, I guess in 1:30:35.160 --> 1:30:39.320 Kurdish you would say beershudan jiane means resistance is life. 1:30:39.720 --> 1:30:43.000 And we should remember that for whole groups of people, 1:30:43.240 --> 1:30:46.439 many of whom we've featured here, if they had all 1:30:46.640 --> 1:30:50.040 just left, they would no longer exist in the way 1:30:50.040 --> 1:30:51.080 that they exist now. 1:30:51.200 --> 1:30:51.280 Right. 1:30:51.400 --> 1:30:58.040 Kurdish people have been oppressed by various states for centuries, right, Turkish, Iraqi, 1:30:58.360 --> 1:31:02.880 Iranian and Syrian. They've been subject to genocidal violence, and 1:31:02.920 --> 1:31:06.080 they've still remained there, right, and they've continued to fight 1:31:06.240 --> 1:31:09.040 against that state oppression, and they've created something beautiful today 1:31:09.040 --> 1:31:10.880 as a result that we can see in Raja. But 1:31:10.920 --> 1:31:14.000 the same is true of the Karen and Kareni people 1:31:14.120 --> 1:31:17.799 we've spoken to in Meama. Right. They decided to remain 1:31:18.280 --> 1:31:21.240 rather than to leave, and in doing so that they 1:31:21.320 --> 1:31:24.559 created a culture that was based on resistance and that 1:31:24.680 --> 1:31:28.719 resisted the ability of the state to exercise a monopoly 1:31:28.760 --> 1:31:32.040 on violence and to determine their outcomes. And I think 1:31:32.600 --> 1:31:35.680 we should look to those examples as we consider, like, 1:31:35.760 --> 1:31:39.839 what does it mean if the state becomes more hostile here. 1:31:40.840 --> 1:31:43.080 Something that like I think I think Robert said in 1:31:43.120 --> 1:31:45.960 our work group chat, which thankfully has not been turned 1:31:45.960 --> 1:31:47.160 into an Atlantic article. 1:31:47.240 --> 1:31:49.720 I did invite Pete hegseeth, so we'll see if he 1:31:50.120 --> 1:31:53.000 happs in. You know, he's rejected us all the good times. 1:31:54.040 --> 1:31:57.200 Yeah, if you're trying to add the Atlantic editor in 1:31:57.280 --> 1:31:58.840 chief for years, he is not welcome. 1:31:58.880 --> 1:32:02.639 He's absolutely not Welbome fucked that guy. 1:32:02.640 --> 1:32:05.360 To seed him to manufacture consent for bombing another country 1:32:05.360 --> 1:32:06.680 in the Middle East on our podcast. 1:32:06.960 --> 1:32:09.000 It's so funny because it is like that is like 1:32:09.040 --> 1:32:11.559 the dream of every journalist that you just get added 1:32:11.720 --> 1:32:14.040 to the entire government's war planning chat and he just 1:32:14.160 --> 1:32:17.240 uses it to dunk on the Trump admin, like you 1:32:17.520 --> 1:32:19.720 get more info onlike anything. 1:32:19.479 --> 1:32:21.360 Than he like Home's back into the head. 1:32:21.560 --> 1:32:24.120 Yeah, it's it's it's fucking hysterical. 1:32:24.439 --> 1:32:26.519 Yeah, they could have had four years and maybe not 1:32:26.600 --> 1:32:27.920 maybe even any one off chat. 1:32:28.000 --> 1:32:30.400 Yeah, would they would have they would have accidentally invited 1:32:30.439 --> 1:32:32.320 a different journalist. It was going to happen eventually. 1:32:32.439 --> 1:32:39.040 But yeah, But something Robert said in our chat is that, like, 1:32:39.560 --> 1:32:43.400 if you already had like plans or the ability to 1:32:44.120 --> 1:32:47.120 move to a different country of your choosing, then yeah, 1:32:47.160 --> 1:32:50.559 why not? Right Like if if you already were thinking 1:32:50.560 --> 1:32:54.439 about moving to Germany, which is very funny to say now, right, 1:32:55.080 --> 1:32:56.960 but if you already had plans and you had the 1:32:56.960 --> 1:32:59.720 ability to do that, then then sure that's something that 1:32:59.720 --> 1:33:03.160 that you that you should like consider. If you do 1:33:03.320 --> 1:33:07.040 not already have pre existing plans and means, maybe it's 1:33:07.040 --> 1:33:09.240 not something to put all of your effort into doing 1:33:09.320 --> 1:33:12.559 right now, because that is such a massive undertaking in general, 1:33:12.600 --> 1:33:15.160 and not everyone has that option, and there's gonna be 1:33:15.160 --> 1:33:18.760 people stuck here, and you know, part of like my 1:33:18.880 --> 1:33:21.320 thinking on this is is like I'm in a relatively 1:33:21.400 --> 1:33:25.240 privileged position. I would rather use the sort of benefits 1:33:25.320 --> 1:33:28.000 and the stability that I have to help other people 1:33:28.040 --> 1:33:30.400 that are going to be living in this country. So 1:33:30.479 --> 1:33:33.519 I'm going to stay here to do that. And that's 1:33:33.640 --> 1:33:37.000 part of kind of my thought process on a personal level, 1:33:37.560 --> 1:33:40.320 do I you know, one day, maybe one to live 1:33:40.400 --> 1:33:43.759 off the continent. Yeah, but that's like for personal reasons, 1:33:43.760 --> 1:33:46.520 not for political reasons. That that's because I think Glasgow 1:33:46.560 --> 1:33:50.360 looks pretty. And if you also think Glasgow's pretty and 1:33:50.400 --> 1:33:54.120 you want to move there, then that's fine. But I guess, 1:33:54.160 --> 1:33:56.559 like the politics of escape, I do find a little 1:33:56.560 --> 1:33:59.880 bit troubling in some ways, and I guess I would 1:33:59.880 --> 1:34:02.679 like to talk about that a little bit more after 1:34:02.920 --> 1:34:03.799 this at break. 1:34:13.920 --> 1:34:14.720 All right, we're back. 1:34:15.360 --> 1:34:19.000 James made a horrible face when I when I complimented Scotland. 1:34:19.360 --> 1:34:26.240 What was up with that when you said glass Gow? Like, oh, 1:34:26.280 --> 1:34:30.759 so Glasgow not not a city that's traditionally like aesthetically prized. 1:34:30.800 --> 1:34:35.080 I guess, uh, okay, well that's maybe Okay. 1:34:35.720 --> 1:34:38.520 Edinburgh is where if I was going to go to Scotland, 1:34:38.520 --> 1:34:39.519 I'd probably aim. 1:34:39.439 --> 1:34:41.320 I'm not going to live in the Harry Potter town. 1:34:41.360 --> 1:34:42.040 Are you kidding me? 1:34:42.320 --> 1:34:46.960 It existed? Okay, Yeah, that is rude, Garrison. 1:34:47.120 --> 1:34:49.360 Don't take that away from Edinburgh. I don't give her 1:34:49.400 --> 1:34:50.200 that all. 1:34:50.080 --> 1:34:53.760 The coffee shops are like fucking wizard themes. Now, absolutely not. 1:34:54.000 --> 1:34:56.439 You haven't been to Edinburgh. Don't tell me that ship. 1:34:56.800 --> 1:34:58.799 I've seen your travel pictures Robert. 1:34:59.320 --> 1:35:02.719 I'm they were mostly hard liquor themed. 1:35:04.000 --> 1:35:04.960 Okay, that's fair. 1:35:05.520 --> 1:35:08.519 You can Edinburgh is a nice city. Glasgow is a 1:35:08.600 --> 1:35:09.120 nice city. 1:35:09.600 --> 1:35:10.200 You can enjoy it. 1:35:10.240 --> 1:35:12.360 You can enjoy it by stop by Karla on your 1:35:12.360 --> 1:35:14.840 way down the Uh my family are from. 1:35:15.080 --> 1:35:18.040 My favorite Glasgow fact is that there's a beverage called 1:35:18.040 --> 1:35:22.120 Buckfast that is twenty percent alcohol mineral wine made by 1:35:22.160 --> 1:35:24.760 monks that has as much coffee as a red bull. 1:35:25.200 --> 1:35:25.320 Uh. 1:35:25.880 --> 1:35:28.679 And in Glasgow, Scotland, for a significant period of time, 1:35:28.760 --> 1:35:31.160 roughly one percent of all violent crimes were committed with 1:35:31.280 --> 1:35:31.759 the bottle. 1:35:32.640 --> 1:35:35.040 Yeah, Bucky is it's it's a whole subculture. 1:35:35.080 --> 1:35:37.320 Buckfast gets you fucked fast, That's right, folks. 1:35:40.200 --> 1:35:42.680 So a term I've used for like the past few 1:35:42.760 --> 1:35:45.920 years to like discuss this, to discuss this question of 1:35:45.960 --> 1:35:49.520 like can you like outrun American fascism is the politics 1:35:49.520 --> 1:35:55.280 of escape. And for a while I really was vocally 1:35:55.280 --> 1:35:58.240 opposed to this sort of politics because it felt like 1:35:58.720 --> 1:36:02.160 the entire world was going through a global far right 1:36:02.200 --> 1:36:04.920 power grab and no matter where you run, you can't 1:36:04.960 --> 1:36:09.040 really get away from it. And now kind of curiously, 1:36:09.479 --> 1:36:11.240 you know, some of some of this is still happening right, 1:36:11.280 --> 1:36:13.559 you can look at the AfD in Germany. But but 1:36:13.960 --> 1:36:17.679 some of what's happened with this Trump administration has almost 1:36:18.200 --> 1:36:21.080 weakened a degree of like this global. 1:36:20.760 --> 1:36:21.840 Far right power grab. 1:36:22.280 --> 1:36:25.640 Like for a long time, it looked like the Conservative 1:36:25.640 --> 1:36:29.639 Party of Canada was about to just completely take control 1:36:29.680 --> 1:36:32.479 over the whole over the whole country due to like 1:36:32.600 --> 1:36:36.920 be pent up frustration over Justin Trudeau's Liberal Party. And 1:36:36.960 --> 1:36:40.080 now due to the actions of the Trump administration, the 1:36:40.120 --> 1:36:44.479 Liberals have retaken a significant portion of like popular support 1:36:44.720 --> 1:36:47.040 and are probably gonna do a big sweep in the 1:36:47.040 --> 1:36:49.960 general election. That's going to happen, I'm guessing next month 1:36:50.200 --> 1:36:53.320 with the new Prime minister like about about to call one, 1:36:53.760 --> 1:36:56.200 which makes sense because he should call one. 1:36:56.160 --> 1:36:59.400 At the at the peak of support for the Liberal Party. 1:36:59.479 --> 1:37:02.800 Yeah, after Conservatives have taken like a twelve to seventeen 1:37:02.880 --> 1:37:05.960 point depth, depending which pool you use. So for a 1:37:06.000 --> 1:37:08.800 while I was like, it doesn't even really make sense 1:37:08.840 --> 1:37:11.200 to flee to Canada because Canada is right on the 1:37:11.200 --> 1:37:14.720 coattails of America. Canadian politics are kind of historically but 1:37:14.880 --> 1:37:19.519 like ten years delayed from American politics, And now the 1:37:19.560 --> 1:37:22.320 new Trump administration is kind of thrown a curveball in this. 1:37:23.360 --> 1:37:26.640 British politics are always really hard for me to diagnose 1:37:27.120 --> 1:37:30.160 because all of their parties there are pretty wacky. 1:37:30.320 --> 1:37:30.960 In my mind. 1:37:31.040 --> 1:37:35.000 Oh, like, you know, what the Tories have been doing 1:37:35.040 --> 1:37:39.280 has been extremely worrying, Like the NHS, like trans stuff 1:37:39.680 --> 1:37:42.960 is pretty bad. Now that the you know, Labor Party 1:37:43.040 --> 1:37:44.880 is in, it's hard for me to figure out kind 1:37:44.880 --> 1:37:47.040 of where the country is going because this Labor Party 1:37:47.080 --> 1:37:48.759 is a pretty conservative labor party. 1:37:49.560 --> 1:37:51.200 But like, this idea of. 1:37:51.160 --> 1:37:53.759 Like being able to outrun American fascism is still something 1:37:53.800 --> 1:37:58.240 I find like unconvincing. I guess, like you can't fully 1:37:58.320 --> 1:38:01.920 run away from all of these problems, and there may 1:38:01.960 --> 1:38:04.960 be certain people that that it's still like makes sense 1:38:05.000 --> 1:38:08.400 to start making these moves, just to start planning for 1:38:08.680 --> 1:38:12.040 that option, right I am. I am pro options, even 1:38:12.080 --> 1:38:16.160 if this idea of like total escape I still find troubling. Yeah, 1:38:17.040 --> 1:38:18.720 and anyone else makes any kind of thoughts on this 1:38:18.840 --> 1:38:19.639 on this saw. 1:38:20.200 --> 1:38:23.400 Yeah, I mean, like as goes to US, goes the world, right, 1:38:23.680 --> 1:38:29.240 and but that is changing. But like maybe I think 1:38:29.240 --> 1:38:31.280 if it gets to the point where large numbers of 1:38:31.320 --> 1:38:34.439 people are fleeing the US, we might see some of 1:38:34.479 --> 1:38:37.920 that same anti migrant rhetoric that we've seen in the 1:38:38.040 --> 1:38:43.400 US in even relatively liberal Canada, the United Kingdom or 1:38:43.600 --> 1:38:46.639 other anglophone countries. Right, Like, it's already very hard to 1:38:46.640 --> 1:38:50.719 immigrate to Australia. It's not the easiest to immigrate to Canada. Frankly, Yeah, 1:38:50.920 --> 1:38:53.000 I'm not as familiar with the Canadian. 1:38:52.600 --> 1:38:55.320 Ones, especially as like an American. Yeah, unless you have 1:38:55.439 --> 1:38:57.839 like a job that you need to do in Canada 1:38:58.160 --> 1:39:00.719 and you're the only one who can do that job, 1:39:01.120 --> 1:39:04.040 or you get a Canadian girlfriend, or that's that makes 1:39:04.040 --> 1:39:07.799 it slightly easier, but still still not like completely easier. 1:39:07.920 --> 1:39:12.040 Frankly, yeah, that is a I guess that's the alternative. Yeah, 1:39:12.080 --> 1:39:14.240 I think, like, I know, like a lot of people 1:39:14.280 --> 1:39:15.840 who listen to this listen to this because they have 1:39:15.840 --> 1:39:20.000 a fairly radical politics, right or left politics, and like. 1:39:20.120 --> 1:39:21.800 Or you're a journalist or you're a federal worker. 1:39:22.200 --> 1:39:24.759 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're looking to steal our stories. 1:39:26.880 --> 1:39:31.439 Fuck off, if I may say so, But like, yeah, 1:39:31.439 --> 1:39:35.040 we've all grown up on the stories of people who 1:39:35.080 --> 1:39:37.040 stood up for what they believed in, right, And Margaret 1:39:37.120 --> 1:39:40.240 makes a whole podcast about it, and Robert does on Christmases, yep, 1:39:40.320 --> 1:39:43.400 and like there's a reason why they did that, Like 1:39:43.760 --> 1:39:47.080 you know they I know that the idea of running 1:39:47.080 --> 1:39:50.280 away and being safe could be tempting, but like, if 1:39:50.280 --> 1:39:53.240 this country gets as bad as it needs to be 1:39:53.280 --> 1:39:55.280 for people to run away in large number, it's then 1:39:55.439 --> 1:39:59.599 like the world gets markedly less safe. Oh yeah, you're 1:39:59.640 --> 1:40:01.920 going to be running for the rest of your life. 1:40:02.040 --> 1:40:04.360 Just look at how much food the US produces, how 1:40:04.400 --> 1:40:07.799 much medicine. Seventy percent of all of the blood used 1:40:08.120 --> 1:40:12.200 in every single country's medical system around the world is 1:40:12.280 --> 1:40:17.240 exported from the United States. Oh wow, Yeah, that's crazy. 1:40:18.920 --> 1:40:23.559 And like, particularly for for like US citizens right looking 1:40:23.680 --> 1:40:26.120 looking to flee, the people who are going to be 1:40:26.120 --> 1:40:29.000 able to pull it off are people with pretty pretty 1:40:29.040 --> 1:40:32.679 extraordinary means in most cases. I'm not saying all cases, 1:40:32.680 --> 1:40:34.479 but like, if if you have the capacity to move 1:40:34.520 --> 1:40:38.320 from the United States to Germany, you're probably not living 1:40:38.320 --> 1:40:41.320 on the poverty line, right, Like this is this this 1:40:41.320 --> 1:40:44.760 takes a considerable financial investment. So instead, part of what 1:40:44.840 --> 1:40:47.120 my opposition to this is that you're essentially abandoning a 1:40:47.120 --> 1:40:51.000 whole bunch of like the like most at risk people. 1:40:51.960 --> 1:40:54.360 A part of this even extends out to like moving 1:40:54.439 --> 1:40:56.760 from state to state. I'm obviously in support of free movement. 1:40:56.880 --> 1:40:59.040 I've traveled around, and I'm going to continue to travel around. 1:40:59.040 --> 1:41:00.639 I want to see as much as in the world 1:41:00.680 --> 1:41:03.960 as I can. But like another facet of this politics 1:41:03.960 --> 1:41:07.320 of escape is that something I hear very consistently from 1:41:07.439 --> 1:41:10.880 my my friends in Atlanta, And this is something like 1:41:10.920 --> 1:41:13.880 I can attest to, like personally, the most amount of 1:41:13.920 --> 1:41:17.360 like like vocal transphobia from people like on the street 1:41:17.360 --> 1:41:20.400 that they have faced has not been in Atlanta, where 1:41:20.400 --> 1:41:23.840 they live. It's been when they're visiting people in Seattle 1:41:24.000 --> 1:41:27.200 or Portland. Like you actually get a lot more like 1:41:27.640 --> 1:41:31.880 weird anti queer harassment in Seattle, which just just like 1:41:31.960 --> 1:41:35.160 on like the street level. It's bizarre, Like cities all 1:41:35.200 --> 1:41:37.479 have different kind of like modes of operation. People have 1:41:37.520 --> 1:41:41.200 different like informal like manners in terms of how how 1:41:41.240 --> 1:41:43.960 you like behave on the street. And it's it's it is. 1:41:44.000 --> 1:41:47.080 This is something I've definitely actually I've definitely experienced. There's 1:41:47.120 --> 1:41:50.679 there's a lot more like open openness towards like certain 1:41:50.720 --> 1:41:54.439 types of of like anti trans harassment in like these 1:41:54.479 --> 1:41:57.760 like liberal safe havens like quote unquote Yeah, I've been 1:41:57.760 --> 1:42:01.320 called slurs on the street way more or in Portland, 1:42:01.360 --> 1:42:04.360 Oregon than I have in Atlanta, Georgia. And this is 1:42:04.400 --> 1:42:06.920 this is another like interesting aspect which I'm not saying 1:42:06.960 --> 1:42:10.880 Atlanta is like quote unquote safer city than Seattle if 1:42:10.880 --> 1:42:13.840 you're trans I'm not saying the vice versa either, But 1:42:13.920 --> 1:42:16.639 this is like just an aspect of like the politics 1:42:16.640 --> 1:42:19.080 of escape, like especially in the in the United States, 1:42:19.120 --> 1:42:22.360 like the there like is really no like real escape 1:42:22.400 --> 1:42:26.640 like there there is no mythical safe haven where you 1:42:26.680 --> 1:42:29.760 can live your your free life and frolics through the 1:42:29.800 --> 1:42:32.600 park and never have to face any kind of hardship 1:42:32.920 --> 1:42:36.879 or like political disenfranchisement. If you still want to relocate somewhere, 1:42:37.000 --> 1:42:40.719 that's something that you should consider and again create options. 1:42:41.120 --> 1:42:43.800 But I also do not want to like abandon my 1:42:43.960 --> 1:42:47.280 friends here because I just you know, have a more 1:42:47.320 --> 1:42:50.400 stable job, Like I want to be here for them 1:42:50.720 --> 1:42:53.160 and and help them, and not in like a patronizing way, 1:42:53.160 --> 1:42:56.080 but in like a solidarity way. Like that's like really 1:42:56.120 --> 1:42:58.280 important to me. And I think of people who are 1:42:58.320 --> 1:43:00.479 who are thinking about these same things and kind of 1:43:00.520 --> 1:43:02.920 running these same questions of of if they want to 1:43:03.240 --> 1:43:05.679 commit to sting in the United States. I think should 1:43:05.680 --> 1:43:08.840 also make those considerations of is like you know, which 1:43:08.880 --> 1:43:10.560 which one of your friends is not going to be 1:43:10.600 --> 1:43:13.400 able to make the same calculation. Yep, And frankly, I 1:43:13.800 --> 1:43:16.760 feel I feel like better as a person and like 1:43:16.840 --> 1:43:18.720 my mental health feels better knowing I'm going to be 1:43:18.760 --> 1:43:23.160 here with them rather than going to a Berlin nightclub. 1:43:22.800 --> 1:43:25.320 Which does sound fun. And I still might on vacation. 1:43:25.600 --> 1:43:27.479 Oh, you definitely need to go to Bergain, Garrett. 1:43:27.520 --> 1:43:28.200 Oh yeah, I have. 1:43:28.320 --> 1:43:31.000 I have planned three days that feel like about four 1:43:31.040 --> 1:43:31.879 hours in Bergain. 1:43:32.040 --> 1:43:34.080 I am, I am, I'm excited. 1:43:34.160 --> 1:43:36.479 I am for the first time planning to leave the 1:43:36.479 --> 1:43:39.919 continent this year, which is a little bit scary because 1:43:40.280 --> 1:43:43.439 re entering the United States has is pretty tricky right now, 1:43:43.640 --> 1:43:45.680 which should also play into your considerations. 1:43:45.760 --> 1:43:46.000 Yeah. 1:43:46.160 --> 1:43:48.880 Yes, the general safety of air travel at the. 1:43:48.840 --> 1:43:52.040 Moment, safety and air travel now that we don't have 1:43:52.080 --> 1:43:53.679 a gay man running the planes. 1:43:53.880 --> 1:43:55.680 Uh yeah, it turns out he was actually all right. 1:43:55.640 --> 1:43:55.880 At that. 1:43:58.439 --> 1:44:00.680 Woke was keeping those planes in in the area, you. 1:44:00.680 --> 1:44:03.920 Know, kudos to him. Turns out he was okay at 1:44:03.920 --> 1:44:04.400 that job. 1:44:07.920 --> 1:44:11.080 But yes, I don't know what I was saying, but 1:44:11.120 --> 1:44:13.880 I'm sure it was really important and well thought through 1:44:15.120 --> 1:44:18.920 about not abandoning people who maybe don't have the same 1:44:18.960 --> 1:44:19.840 resources that you do. 1:44:20.640 --> 1:44:24.559 Yeah, to your point about like coming back to the US, 1:44:25.479 --> 1:44:28.080 understand that like one of the things that migrants to 1:44:28.080 --> 1:44:29.680 deal with, even if they get to a place and 1:44:29.680 --> 1:44:31.800 they have some degree permanents and they feel safe there, 1:44:32.280 --> 1:44:35.120 is that they will never be able to go back 1:44:35.160 --> 1:44:37.439 to where they're from in most cases, right that means 1:44:37.600 --> 1:44:40.240 when someone in their family passes away, they can't be 1:44:40.320 --> 1:44:43.519 there for the funeral. That means that when they have 1:44:43.600 --> 1:44:47.920 a grandchild, they have a niece or a nephew, something 1:44:47.960 --> 1:44:49.640 happens in their community and they want to be there 1:44:49.680 --> 1:44:52.240 to help. It's a natural disaster. They had just stuck. 1:44:52.720 --> 1:44:56.479 And that's not something to like to discount as something 1:44:56.520 --> 1:45:01.120 that's not important, Like that is really hard. And if 1:45:01.120 --> 1:45:04.080 you have a community now, especially for trans folks, right, 1:45:04.160 --> 1:45:06.920 Like I just think that like there are so many 1:45:06.960 --> 1:45:09.960 places where, like like you say, Garrison, where bigotry against 1:45:10.000 --> 1:45:12.280 transfolks is being more and more normalized. Like if you 1:45:12.320 --> 1:45:15.160 have a community where people where you're experiencing joy every 1:45:15.240 --> 1:45:17.960 day with the people you're around, like leaving that should 1:45:17.960 --> 1:45:21.840 be something that you really think hard about, because that 1:45:21.920 --> 1:45:24.919 can be hard to find. Yeah, yeah, especially in Edinburgh 1:45:24.920 --> 1:45:29.920 because they're all turfs with the in the cafes. That's 1:45:29.960 --> 1:45:30.320 not true. 1:45:32.000 --> 1:45:34.240 Just to be clear, Yeah, I mean, this is kind 1:45:34.280 --> 1:45:37.200 of the discussion I wanted to have. I'm sure we 1:45:37.240 --> 1:45:39.040 all have more thoughts on this that we will we 1:45:39.080 --> 1:45:41.680 will express very eloquently as soon as we close this 1:45:41.800 --> 1:45:42.719 recording session. 1:45:42.760 --> 1:45:43.519 That's how we do it. 1:45:44.160 --> 1:45:46.479 But but I know this is this is the type 1:45:46.479 --> 1:45:47.840 of stuff that we've been thinking about. I know, I 1:45:48.040 --> 1:45:51.040 know listeners have been too, because you're asking us these questions. 1:45:51.439 --> 1:45:54.439 So it's certainly annoying that we don't have a concise 1:45:54.600 --> 1:45:57.800 yes or no answer. But there isn't a concise yes 1:45:57.920 --> 1:46:00.439 or no answer. I think the most concise what I 1:46:00.520 --> 1:46:02.599 have is that you should be giving yourself as many 1:46:02.640 --> 1:46:06.400 options as you can. If that includes applying for Irish 1:46:06.439 --> 1:46:10.680 citizenship because your grandfather is Irish, then hey, why not 1:46:11.040 --> 1:46:11.600 go for it? 1:46:11.720 --> 1:46:14.519 Right, Ireland's great, nice country. You'll like it. 1:46:15.840 --> 1:46:19.880 But I am I am trepidacious. I guess about about 1:46:19.880 --> 1:46:22.920 you know, public calls to flee the country at this 1:46:23.120 --> 1:46:26.400 point and kind of the underlying politics and ideology of that, 1:46:27.200 --> 1:46:31.200 let alone the kind of the logistical aspects of trying 1:46:31.280 --> 1:46:33.720 to relocate to a different country where you are not 1:46:33.760 --> 1:46:36.200 a citizen. And frankly, I think there will be a 1:46:36.240 --> 1:46:38.080 lot of countries that are not super eager to take 1:46:38.120 --> 1:46:42.479 American immigrants. I think Canada is typically kind of, kind 1:46:42.520 --> 1:46:45.960 of low key been one of these places. Especially if 1:46:45.960 --> 1:46:48.280 we're going to go to war with Canada to make 1:46:48.280 --> 1:46:50.880 it the fifty first state, then it might also uh 1:46:51.720 --> 1:46:54.559 create create some some some tricky aspects. 1:46:54.880 --> 1:46:55.599 You could make it hot. 1:46:56.320 --> 1:46:58.880 But I know, if anyone else has any any other thoughts, 1:46:59.160 --> 1:47:03.639 air them now or forever. Be beholden to angry reddit comments. 1:47:04.880 --> 1:47:08.080 Yeah, please don't burn each other down on Reddit, Like 1:47:08.720 --> 1:47:10.320 now is the time to give people a little grace 1:47:10.360 --> 1:47:11.799 and be kind to other people. 1:47:12.320 --> 1:47:14.920 Don't flee to Belgium. Stay away from Belgium at all costs. 1:47:15.040 --> 1:47:16.679 I had a nice time in Belgium. 1:47:16.680 --> 1:47:19.760 What do you gets Belgium. I have a friend in Belgium. 1:47:19.320 --> 1:47:22.200 As an Italian. I think we need to go with 1:47:22.320 --> 1:47:24.200 a war with them again. You know, it's what made 1:47:24.200 --> 1:47:26.599 Caesar great. It could make us great again. That's that's 1:47:26.600 --> 1:47:29.400 my stance on Belgium. It's Italian territory. 1:47:29.479 --> 1:47:30.880 I stand with the Belgian people. 1:47:52.439 --> 1:47:54.479 Welcome to you can happen hear a podcast trying to 1:47:54.520 --> 1:47:56.720 figure out why some of the most powerful people in 1:47:56.760 --> 1:47:59.280 the world want everyone to think that they're gamers. It 1:47:59.400 --> 1:48:02.120 is it is host me along with me as Garrison Davis. 1:48:02.520 --> 1:48:05.760 Hi, I've I've played a video game before. I'm not 1:48:05.880 --> 1:48:07.320 very powerful, but I. 1:48:07.680 --> 1:48:10.240 Too have played many several video games. 1:48:10.560 --> 1:48:13.240 See I wouldn't. I wouldn't say several. I've I've played 1:48:13.280 --> 1:48:17.120 like a few many. I have played too many, simply 1:48:17.120 --> 1:48:22.280 too many video games. So okay, this is this is. 1:48:22.400 --> 1:48:24.679 In some ways kind of a lighter episode, because Jesus 1:48:24.680 --> 1:48:27.639 fucking Christ, everything's really depressing. Is something going on out there, 1:48:28.120 --> 1:48:29.760 It's all really bad, And one of the people who's 1:48:29.760 --> 1:48:33.040 been making everything really really bad is Elon Musk, who 1:48:33.720 --> 1:48:36.800 has somehow managed to like piss off the gamers. The 1:48:36.840 --> 1:48:41.360 PayPal guy, the PayPal guy, the owner of X I've 1:48:41.400 --> 1:48:44.200 I've been I've been locked in my uh in my 1:48:44.320 --> 1:48:46.599 gamer cave for the past like five months. 1:48:46.600 --> 1:48:48.960 I'm not left. I'm just hearing about this now. 1:48:49.320 --> 1:48:51.120 Yeah you might. You might. You might know of him 1:48:51.120 --> 1:48:53.160 as the guy who paid another guy to play Path 1:48:53.160 --> 1:48:54.880 of Exile two for him. We will get to that. 1:48:55.040 --> 1:48:57.040 See, I don't play those games. Those games are gay. 1:48:57.760 --> 1:49:03.320 I only play Nintendo Mecca games and Hell Divers too, 1:49:04.080 --> 1:49:04.759 like a loser. 1:49:05.240 --> 1:49:08.519 That's that's reasonable, that's reasonable. Those are those are Those 1:49:08.520 --> 1:49:12.880 are fine games. Oh and Sonic, Oh god, okay, pushing 1:49:12.920 --> 1:49:19.040 aside the subject the Sonic, So okay, I want to 1:49:19.080 --> 1:49:21.120 take a look a bit about why this sort of 1:49:21.200 --> 1:49:25.240 matters and why all of these fucking really rich assholes 1:49:25.240 --> 1:49:28.880 are sort of trying to pretend to be gamers. And 1:49:28.960 --> 1:49:31.400 I think the place to start here is with the 1:49:31.479 --> 1:49:34.639 fact that gaming is in one hundred and eighty four 1:49:34.680 --> 1:49:38.120 point three billion dollar industry. Todd Harris, who is an 1:49:38.160 --> 1:49:41.240 extremely annoying guy but is also right, points out that 1:49:41.320 --> 1:49:44.000 this is more money than TV, movies, and music combined. 1:49:44.720 --> 1:49:47.559 So this is the largest entertainment market in the world 1:49:47.880 --> 1:49:52.439 by such an astounding margin in terms of just dollar value. Right, 1:49:53.280 --> 1:49:56.960 something like three billion people play video games. It's mostly 1:49:57.000 --> 1:49:59.240 mobile games, which makes the story I'm about to tell 1:49:59.360 --> 1:50:03.040 very weird because the actual people who play these games again, 1:50:03.120 --> 1:50:07.080 it's it's a lot of mobile games, and it's also 1:50:07.280 --> 1:50:11.160 mostly people who are women, and non white. And yet, however, Comma, 1:50:11.200 --> 1:50:14.880 when people think about like the gamer TM, you are 1:50:14.920 --> 1:50:16.240 not thinking about. 1:50:15.960 --> 1:50:18.240 That, yeah, like as a political class. 1:50:19.000 --> 1:50:22.000 Yeah yeah, you know, like when people say the word gamer, yeah, 1:50:22.040 --> 1:50:25.320 you're thinking of a bunch of weird in cell right 1:50:25.360 --> 1:50:31.960 wing dipshits who are white and suckass. And this is 1:50:32.120 --> 1:50:34.280 in large part because gamer Gate was sort of the first, 1:50:34.320 --> 1:50:37.640 like truly effective political mobilization of like the gamer as 1:50:37.640 --> 1:50:39.680 a political identity. And obviously this is you know, this 1:50:39.800 --> 1:50:42.800 is a fascist movement. Now. Part of the reason this works, 1:50:42.800 --> 1:50:45.040 and we're gonna be getting more into why this sort 1:50:45.080 --> 1:50:47.160 of works later, but part of the reason this works 1:50:47.200 --> 1:50:48.920 is that this is an extremely large group of people 1:50:48.960 --> 1:50:51.840 because it's new. No one has sort of defined it 1:50:51.880 --> 1:50:54.200 as a political identity before, and it's also filled with 1:50:54.280 --> 1:50:57.880 people who are extremely insecure about their identity as a 1:50:57.880 --> 1:51:00.000 gamer because this is a relatively new medium, which is 1:51:00.040 --> 1:51:03.800 why everyone fucking either wants their games to be like 1:51:04.200 --> 1:51:08.040 treated like movies or some shit, or they want it 1:51:08.040 --> 1:51:11.120 to be sports because those are sort of cultural things 1:51:11.439 --> 1:51:13.360 with enormous amounts of money, and then that are taken 1:51:13.400 --> 1:51:17.479 like quote unquote more seriously. Yeah. Yeah, And so the 1:51:18.000 --> 1:51:20.680 effect of this is that the cultural affect of being 1:51:20.760 --> 1:51:23.720 a gamer is extremely important to these people. And this 1:51:23.880 --> 1:51:26.920 is true actually really both on the left as much 1:51:26.920 --> 1:51:28.479 as it is on their right. There are a lot 1:51:28.479 --> 1:51:31.960 of like sort of political figures. I don't know, you're 1:51:32.000 --> 1:51:35.160 sort of like online people who come out of gaming, 1:51:36.040 --> 1:51:37.760 like like h Bomber guy. I guess this is an 1:51:37.760 --> 1:51:40.880 example like Hassan. To some extent, there's just like a 1:51:40.880 --> 1:51:43.920 lot of people who are like gamers and then by 1:51:43.960 --> 1:51:47.000 sort of like become political. But on the other hand, 1:51:47.120 --> 1:51:49.840 gaming has always been like a not always but has 1:51:50.160 --> 1:51:54.559 traditionally been an extremely right wing space. Oh god, Garrison, 1:51:54.800 --> 1:51:56.800 I feel like you will actually appreciate how fucking shit 1:51:56.880 --> 1:51:58.559 this is. Have I told you this story about Kabab 1:51:58.640 --> 1:52:02.040 the German now? Oh boy? Okay, so back in the 1:52:02.120 --> 1:52:04.639 dawn of Time I played a lot of Heartstone as 1:52:04.680 --> 1:52:07.400 a kid, and I was like, I wasn't like good. 1:52:07.479 --> 1:52:09.840 Is that like a resource management type game for like 1:52:09.880 --> 1:52:10.679 gay autistic people? 1:52:11.120 --> 1:52:14.000 No, this is this is the world of Warcraft card game. 1:52:14.360 --> 1:52:16.160 Okay, that's that's even more embarrassing. 1:52:17.120 --> 1:52:19.240 Yeah, really bad, really bad. I think I think I 1:52:19.320 --> 1:52:22.960 peaked at like two k Legend North America, which like 1:52:23.600 --> 1:52:26.720 technically speaking is like top like half a percent of 1:52:26.760 --> 1:52:31.200 players in the world's digital collectible card video game. Come on, 1:52:31.360 --> 1:52:35.080 oh yeah yeah, but two k legend DNA is like 1:52:35.120 --> 1:52:37.920 fucking shitter ranks. It's bad. I was never like good, 1:52:38.080 --> 1:52:41.439 good at it. I was just like okay, kind of. 1:52:42.160 --> 1:52:44.040 But you know, this is like a thing that I 1:52:44.080 --> 1:52:46.040 did growing up, and something I remember is like all 1:52:46.080 --> 1:52:48.080 of the fucking Heardstone streamers and these are like really 1:52:48.120 --> 1:52:51.040 big streamers would play music from this guy they called 1:52:51.080 --> 1:52:55.160 Kobob the German and it turns out that his actual 1:52:55.240 --> 1:52:58.599 name was removed Kobob because he was a fucking German 1:52:58.680 --> 1:53:03.599 neo Nazi. Well many such cases, yeah, for people who 1:53:03.640 --> 1:53:07.240 like are not aware of of like mid twenty tens 1:53:07.320 --> 1:53:10.320 German fascism. Remove Kebab is like a slogan calling for 1:53:10.360 --> 1:53:12.879 the ethnic cleansing and genocide of Turkish people in Germany. 1:53:13.760 --> 1:53:16.240 So great stuff, great stuff. This is just was just 1:53:16.280 --> 1:53:18.160 sort of like the water you were swimming in if 1:53:18.200 --> 1:53:22.479 you were a gamer in like the twenty tens. Now, 1:53:23.560 --> 1:53:27.000 this goes some way to explaining something that I noticed 1:53:27.720 --> 1:53:33.120 kind of recently, which is the absolutely bizarre obsession these 1:53:33.120 --> 1:53:35.919 tech CEOs like who want to be thought of as gamers. 1:53:36.400 --> 1:53:37.960 And so the two examples we're gonna look at are 1:53:38.000 --> 1:53:40.479 Sam bank and Freed's And this is really technically on 1:53:40.520 --> 1:53:42.240 both sides of the political spectrum, Right, We're gonna look 1:53:42.240 --> 1:53:45.160 at Sam Banker Freed, and we're gonna look at Elon 1:53:45.320 --> 1:53:50.400 musk are new Overlord. I guess. So we're gonna start 1:53:50.400 --> 1:53:52.880 with Sam bankin Freed, and you know, as we go 1:53:52.960 --> 1:53:56.559 through what's happening here, we're gonna sort of unravel why 1:53:56.880 --> 1:53:58.839 it's so important to them to be seen as gamers. 1:53:59.600 --> 1:54:01.080 And I, I guess it is important to know like 1:54:01.120 --> 1:54:04.120 Sam Bakman Fried like is I guess like he is 1:54:04.120 --> 1:54:06.160 a gamer in the sense that like he's like addicted 1:54:06.200 --> 1:54:10.400 to video games effectively and just plays them fucking literally constantly. Yeah, 1:54:10.439 --> 1:54:13.280 he looks the part too, no offense. Yeah, yeah, before 1:54:13.280 --> 1:54:15.040 before he was put in prison for twenty five years 1:54:15.120 --> 1:54:16.240 for fraud. 1:54:16.439 --> 1:54:19.599 Well probably not anymore. He's probably gonna get part of God. 1:54:19.960 --> 1:54:21.800 Maybe we'll see, we'll see. I don't know. 1:54:21.920 --> 1:54:25.280 Crypto vote, it's the most valuable voting block. Now, all 1:54:25.520 --> 1:54:28.320 young Americans are too poor to open bank accounts, so 1:54:28.320 --> 1:54:30.400 they put all their money in crypto. So now they're 1:54:30.400 --> 1:54:32.920 gonna vote for whoever makes line go up. 1:54:33.120 --> 1:54:37.640 I'm gonna become the joker. So okay, then think about 1:54:37.640 --> 1:54:40.840 Sam Megan Frieda for people who have forgotten who SBF is. 1:54:41.000 --> 1:54:43.680 He is the guy who was the founder of FTX, 1:54:43.720 --> 1:54:45.919 which was like a crypto change that was actually effectively 1:54:45.960 --> 1:54:48.040 a giant scam where he took everyone's money and betted 1:54:48.080 --> 1:54:50.720 on the stock market and lost it. And you know, 1:54:51.680 --> 1:54:54.000 Robert did a behind the bassards on him. And one 1:54:54.040 --> 1:54:56.000 of the things that happens constantly is he's just like 1:54:56.040 --> 1:54:59.000 always fucking playing video games. He's playing this really dogshit 1:54:59.040 --> 1:55:01.320 game called Story Big or Algy Meetings. He is a 1:55:01.400 --> 1:55:05.080 League of Legends addict, which is like as as any 1:55:05.120 --> 1:55:07.240 gamer will know a person who plays the League of 1:55:07.320 --> 1:55:09.240 Legends all the time, like one of the worst categories 1:55:09.280 --> 1:55:12.560 people who's ever existed. And one of the things that 1:55:12.560 --> 1:55:15.680 that SBF did as as a sort of pr thing 1:55:15.840 --> 1:55:20.240 right was let the author Michael Lewis of the Big Shorts, 1:55:20.560 --> 1:55:26.800 We're Gonna get the moneyball in a second, blindside other books. 1:55:27.120 --> 1:55:29.920 Reparatable financial advice books, is what I'm hearing. 1:55:31.400 --> 1:55:34.240 But you know, like a very very powerful, influential and 1:55:34.520 --> 1:55:36.960 wealthy American journalist just let him sort of tag along 1:55:37.120 --> 1:55:41.520 and and Michael Lewis's sort of angle on understanding him. 1:55:41.520 --> 1:55:44.560 But this is something that like ICBF was like you know, 1:55:45.120 --> 1:55:47.080 was like projecting right in order for this to be 1:55:47.080 --> 1:55:49.040 the image of him, was him as like the gamer. 1:55:49.600 --> 1:55:52.120 And this sort of just like baffles Michael Lewis right, 1:55:52.120 --> 1:55:56.480 because he just like doesn't understand someone who just has 1:55:56.520 --> 1:55:58.800 ADHD and plays video games all the time and doesn't 1:55:58.800 --> 1:56:01.240 give a shit. So he plays meetings like no one 1:56:01.240 --> 1:56:03.320 has ever been like this. I have no idea what 1:56:03.360 --> 1:56:06.280 you mean. I actually don't play video game stream meetings 1:56:06.320 --> 1:56:10.600 because it is too obvious. But I play. 1:56:10.600 --> 1:56:13.080 I play video games a once a week. That's that's 1:56:13.120 --> 1:56:14.200 that's kind of my Oh. 1:56:14.120 --> 1:56:16.120 God, this is the one part about sam Bakmon Free 1:56:16.120 --> 1:56:18.000 that's relatable to me. I play so many video games. 1:56:18.040 --> 1:56:20.840 It is my like antidepression strategy, basically, like when I 1:56:20.840 --> 1:56:23.800 need to not think for a while, there's just MEO playing. 1:56:23.840 --> 1:56:25.680 Actually Path of Faxyle too, one of the games that 1:56:25.720 --> 1:56:27.840 we're gonna be talking about today, something that I play 1:56:27.840 --> 1:56:31.320 a lot of. I've done so much fucking gaming, Like god, 1:56:31.360 --> 1:56:33.400 I used to play this game called Smite, which is 1:56:33.480 --> 1:56:35.080 like a it's like a mob but like League of 1:56:35.120 --> 1:56:37.200 Legends but like third person and I played so much 1:56:37.200 --> 1:56:40.040 Smite that they were pro showing my casual games. When 1:56:40.120 --> 1:56:42.560 when the Zoomer Revolution comes and they execute the gamers 1:56:42.560 --> 1:56:44.400 and they execute b I'm gonna be like, yeah, you know, 1:56:44.480 --> 1:56:46.880 that's reasonable. Like I can't argue with that. 1:56:46.960 --> 1:56:51.560 I'll inform the council't our next folks council meeting. I'll 1:56:51.560 --> 1:56:52.440 bring it to the table. 1:56:52.880 --> 1:56:55.880 That's reasonable. But you know, so so what what what 1:56:55.880 --> 1:56:58.080 what happens with this sort of thing is that is 1:56:58.080 --> 1:57:01.760 that Michael Lewis's image of SF becomes as this gamer 1:57:01.760 --> 1:57:04.640 who's doing these completely incomprehensible things. He's mind must be 1:57:04.760 --> 1:57:07.960 so unbelievably brilliant. Yeah, totally, because he's just like playing 1:57:08.200 --> 1:57:11.000 fucking video games all the time. And and this gets 1:57:11.000 --> 1:57:14.880 to one of the aspects of why these people do this, 1:57:14.880 --> 1:57:16.600 this sort of like pretending to be a gamer thing 1:57:16.680 --> 1:57:18.960 and and like and like SBF like is a gamer, right, 1:57:19.360 --> 1:57:21.000 but like why why they make us part of their 1:57:21.000 --> 1:57:22.960 cultural image, which is that a lot of the traditional 1:57:23.000 --> 1:57:27.440 media people, even though gaming is an enormous industry. It's 1:57:27.480 --> 1:57:31.920 it's extremely profitable and is enormously culturally powerful. It doesn't 1:57:32.280 --> 1:57:36.520 have the same kind of critical culture around. It doesn't 1:57:36.520 --> 1:57:38.880 exist that you would see or something like movies or like. 1:57:39.000 --> 1:57:43.920 Respectability in some way, except in like the reversed Sam 1:57:43.960 --> 1:57:47.800 Bankman freedway, where like the schlubbiness is part of what 1:57:47.920 --> 1:57:50.640 makes him like an extential genius, right, like like like 1:57:50.760 --> 1:57:53.560 that era of like Silicon Valley guy. Yeah, that's like 1:57:53.840 --> 1:57:56.680 he's he's so different, right, Like he's he's he's not 1:57:56.720 --> 1:57:58.920 like put together, and this like shows how he's like 1:57:58.960 --> 1:58:01.200 a new and innovative thing. So it's kind of like 1:58:01.240 --> 1:58:03.080 it's kind of like a double edged sword in like 1:58:03.560 --> 1:58:04.640 that specific way. 1:58:04.880 --> 1:58:07.120 Yeah, well, this is all a feedback loop, right, because 1:58:07.120 --> 1:58:09.800 like part of it not being respectable is that someone 1:58:09.880 --> 1:58:12.280 like Michael Lewis, right, who was like as establishment of 1:58:12.280 --> 1:58:14.760 a journalist as there's ever been. These people don't play 1:58:14.800 --> 1:58:16.960 video games. They're one of the figures people who just 1:58:16.960 --> 1:58:20.000 like don't game. Are these like traditional mainstream sort of 1:58:20.040 --> 1:58:22.800 access journalists, right, And so they run into this shit 1:58:22.840 --> 1:58:24.880 and they have no fucking idea what the hell is 1:58:24.920 --> 1:58:28.120 going on, And it's just really really easily just sort 1:58:28.120 --> 1:58:30.360 of like bamboozle them by just doing something that any 1:58:30.360 --> 1:58:33.080 gamer like, you know you, like, you show a gamer 1:58:33.200 --> 1:58:35.360 like a League of Legends addicts, and they will instantly 1:58:35.360 --> 1:58:37.240 be able to just like read this person like a 1:58:37.240 --> 1:58:39.280 fucking book. Also, by the way, gaming addiction like is 1:58:39.320 --> 1:58:42.040 like kind of a fake thing. I'm like mostly joking here, 1:58:42.080 --> 1:58:45.000 but also like League of Legends makes you a worse person. 1:58:46.240 --> 1:58:48.600 It simply does. You just get mad all the time. 1:58:48.640 --> 1:58:50.960 I've known too many League Legis players of my goddamn life. 1:58:51.200 --> 1:58:52.440 Holy shit, terrible game. 1:58:52.760 --> 1:58:58.400 Yeah, but arcane though, right, all right, didn't Oh god, Okay. 1:58:58.200 --> 1:58:59.640 We're gonna take an ad break, and then when I 1:58:59.680 --> 1:59:01.840 come back, I'm going to explain part of why this worked, 1:59:01.880 --> 1:59:04.000 which is the unique incompetence of Michael Lewis. 1:59:04.400 --> 1:59:06.520 Well, I look forward to that. I love hearing about 1:59:06.600 --> 1:59:07.560 unique incompetence. 1:59:17.800 --> 1:59:20.280 So we are back now, Okay, Obviously, part of the 1:59:20.280 --> 1:59:22.080 reason this works too is, you know, as I've been 1:59:22.080 --> 1:59:24.760 talking about, right, like these these really out of touch 1:59:25.040 --> 1:59:27.800 sort of like mainstream journalists who just don't understand an 1:59:28.120 --> 1:59:32.560 enormous market. Right, But Lewis is in some sense kind 1:59:32.560 --> 1:59:37.000 of a special case because he is really truly an 1:59:37.120 --> 1:59:40.880 unbelievably global dumbass. And to get an understanding of this, 1:59:40.920 --> 1:59:42.720 I'm going to go into something that Lewis in theory 1:59:42.800 --> 1:59:44.520 understands a lot better, which is sports. 1:59:44.680 --> 1:59:46.440 So Lewis has. 1:59:46.320 --> 1:59:48.960 Written two of the most famous books ever written about sports, right. 1:59:49.040 --> 1:59:52.000 He wrote Moneyball, which is the book that we're gonna 1:59:52.000 --> 1:59:53.520 be talking about, which I'll get to you in a second. 1:59:53.560 --> 1:59:55.280 And he wrote The Blindside, which is another book that 1:59:55.640 --> 1:59:57.920 they talk about on Behind the Bassarge and go listen 1:59:57.920 --> 2:00:00.800 to that, But I want to go going on money Bomb. 2:00:00.840 --> 2:00:03.560 Moneyball is supposed to be this book about how this 2:00:03.800 --> 2:00:07.760 underdog an athletics team invented like baseball metrics and they 2:00:07.800 --> 2:00:10.720 use sabermetrics to like like build this roster out of 2:00:10.760 --> 2:00:13.400 nothing that like went to the playoffs and did really well. 2:00:14.080 --> 2:00:16.440 And like I'm not going to get into the extent 2:00:16.440 --> 2:00:18.840 to which this was kind of a mirage about that 2:00:18.880 --> 2:00:20.880 Oakland A's team, Like whatever, I'm not gonna argue about 2:00:20.880 --> 2:00:24.280 baseball statistics. What I will argue about is that one 2:00:24.320 --> 2:00:27.160 of the characters in this fucking book, right, who's one 2:00:27.200 --> 2:00:29.400 of the sort of like underdog geniuses and like Michael 2:00:29.440 --> 2:00:32.680 Lewis loves to find, right, is this guy named Paul Pedesta? 2:00:33.720 --> 2:00:35.480 Can he is? He is like one of the main 2:00:35.520 --> 2:00:37.320 figures in this book. He's like, he's kind of like 2:00:37.320 --> 2:00:40.080 an assistant coach. Basically, what baseball team is this? Oh? 2:00:40.080 --> 2:00:43.200 This is the Oakland Athletics are now the last Vegas 2:00:43.240 --> 2:00:44.920 Athletics or some shit. I don't know that they moved 2:00:44.960 --> 2:00:45.280 to Vegas. 2:00:45.280 --> 2:00:47.160 I don't know what they're called the athletics now. 2:00:47.280 --> 2:00:48.920 No, No, they are originally called the Athletics. I don't 2:00:48.920 --> 2:00:50.800 know what they're called now. They've always been the except 2:00:50.920 --> 2:00:53.520 just calls them the Oakland A's. They've been the A's forever. 2:00:53.560 --> 2:00:56.840 But yeah, they've they've they've also been stolen. Las Vegas 2:00:56.880 --> 2:00:59.200 has now stolen both the football team and the baseball 2:00:59.240 --> 2:01:01.080 team oft. 2:01:00.520 --> 2:01:02.880 Oh see, I was thinking of the football team, yeah, 2:01:03.040 --> 2:01:05.240 because I was like, wait a minute, didn't didn't Las 2:01:05.280 --> 2:01:06.920 Vegasts go there too? 2:01:07.200 --> 2:01:09.200 Yes, yes, they stole both of them. 2:01:09.240 --> 2:01:11.600 That's what I was thinking. And I am more of 2:01:11.600 --> 2:01:13.480 a baseball head than a football head. 2:01:13.560 --> 2:01:15.480 But yeah, so okay, unfortunately we're gonna be talking about 2:01:15.520 --> 2:01:18.680 football here. So this guy, right, Paul Padesta's like one 2:01:18.720 --> 2:01:21.760 of these sort of geniuses. She later goes on to 2:01:21.920 --> 2:01:25.120 be It's kind of unclear exactly what he was doing 2:01:25.120 --> 2:01:28.240 in the organization, but he is hired by the just 2:01:28.400 --> 2:01:33.120 absolutely wretched the football franchise, the Cleveland Browns. Now to 2:01:33.120 --> 2:01:35.560 get an understanding of how wretched the Cleveland Browns are. 2:01:35.920 --> 2:01:37.960 My opening savment for him on the Browns is it 2:01:38.080 --> 2:01:42.240 is genuinely unclear how responsible Paul Podesta is for the 2:01:42.280 --> 2:01:44.680 Browns over the course of two seasons, going one in 2:01:44.800 --> 2:01:48.840 thirty one, which is a feat of like just absolutely 2:01:48.880 --> 2:01:52.400 sucking shit that is unrivaled in any other major American sports. 2:01:52.520 --> 2:01:55.160 I think until the fucking moon crashes into the Earth, 2:01:55.760 --> 2:01:58.440 no one is going to fucking go one in thirty 2:01:58.520 --> 2:02:01.160 one into cruss two seasons football again. So again that 2:02:01.280 --> 2:02:03.880 is a one in fifteen season, followed by an owen 2:02:04.000 --> 2:02:06.680 sixteen season. It's the second oh to sixteen season. Ever, 2:02:07.320 --> 2:02:09.680 unclear how responsible for this he is, but what he 2:02:09.760 --> 2:02:13.800 is responsible for is the Shawn Watson trade. Okay, it's 2:02:13.840 --> 2:02:15.080 like mea, why the fuck you're talking about? 2:02:15.080 --> 2:02:15.200 This? 2:02:15.200 --> 2:02:17.360 Part of this is also like these people are just evil. 2:02:18.040 --> 2:02:21.600 Deshaun Watson is a serial sexual predator. I couldn't get 2:02:21.600 --> 2:02:25.000 an accurate estimate of how many women, specifically massage therapists 2:02:25.000 --> 2:02:27.360 mostly have accused him of sexual assault. He is like 2:02:27.400 --> 2:02:29.880 one of the worst people in the entire NFL, which 2:02:29.920 --> 2:02:32.520 is a league of a lot of people who absolutely 2:02:32.520 --> 2:02:35.200 fucking suck shit. So so that that's the first thing 2:02:35.200 --> 2:02:37.520 you have to understand about Watson's that he is just 2:02:38.120 --> 2:02:41.720 really fucking like morally reprehensible, right. He is like a 2:02:41.720 --> 2:02:44.760 bad enough sexual predator that the NFL actually fucking suspended 2:02:44.800 --> 2:02:48.800 him for a season. And Paul Podesta, who again is 2:02:48.840 --> 2:02:51.560 the guy whom Michael Lewis is supposed to be like touting, 2:02:51.640 --> 2:02:54.920 is like this genius analytics guy, decides that he is 2:02:55.000 --> 2:02:56.800 going to set up this deal for his team to 2:02:56.840 --> 2:02:59.120 trade for Deshaun Watson, who've been on the Texans, And again, 2:02:59.160 --> 2:03:02.400 like Garrison, like, imagine how evil you have to be 2:03:02.480 --> 2:03:07.800 for the Houston Texans to trade you on fucking moral grounds. 2:03:07.560 --> 2:03:09.720 Nia, do you expect me to know anything about the 2:03:09.800 --> 2:03:10.879 Houston Texans. 2:03:10.920 --> 2:03:14.320 It is a team from Houston, Texas. That's all you 2:03:14.360 --> 2:03:16.960 need to know about this. And they traded this guy. 2:03:17.160 --> 2:03:20.080 Hey, at least it's not Austin. No offense to our 2:03:20.160 --> 2:03:21.560 Austin listeners. 2:03:21.320 --> 2:03:25.480 They fucking traded this guy, right, and Popadesa orchestrates this 2:03:25.560 --> 2:03:28.320 trade that is three is it is the worst trade 2:03:28.320 --> 2:03:30.960 in the history of football. It is three first round picks, 2:03:31.000 --> 2:03:33.320 two thirds, two third round picks, and a fourth round pick. 2:03:33.600 --> 2:03:35.240 And they hand this guy who, again I kind of 2:03:35.240 --> 2:03:38.840 emphasize this enough, is a serial sexual predator, right, they 2:03:38.880 --> 2:03:43.200 hand him two hundred and thirty million guaranteed dollars, the 2:03:43.280 --> 2:03:46.600 largest guaranteed salary the history of the NFL. So, okay, So, 2:03:46.720 --> 2:03:48.960 how does Deshaun Watson, like again, this guy who's being 2:03:49.000 --> 2:03:51.400 held up by the guy who like is now laundering 2:03:51.520 --> 2:03:53.680 being a gamer as like the great symbol of sort 2:03:53.720 --> 2:03:57.000 of like cultural like being a rogue outsider. Right, how 2:03:57.080 --> 2:04:00.280 does Deshaun Watson his like greatest fucking project to do 2:04:00.400 --> 2:04:02.800 on the field. So in his first season, he basically 2:04:02.800 --> 2:04:06.800 got injured immediately. It is second season in weeks one 2:04:06.840 --> 2:04:09.760 through five out of out of seven hundred and fifty 2:04:09.880 --> 2:04:13.640 nine quarterbacks. Since the year two thousand, to start weeks 2:04:13.640 --> 2:04:16.160 one through five out of again seven hundred and fifty 2:04:16.240 --> 2:04:20.320 nine quarterbacks, he ranks seven hundred and fifty three out 2:04:20.320 --> 2:04:24.640 of seven hundred and fifty nine EPA for dropback seven 2:04:24.760 --> 2:04:27.360 hundred and fifty three out of seven hundred and fifty nine. 2:04:27.400 --> 2:04:30.600 They traded three first round picks for this guy. He 2:04:30.680 --> 2:04:34.120 has a mind boggling an EPA of negative point three, 2:04:34.320 --> 2:04:36.880 which means every time the serial sexual predator drops back 2:04:36.920 --> 2:04:39.720 to make a pass, they are expected to get point 2:04:39.760 --> 2:04:42.760 three less points than an average team would. 2:04:43.360 --> 2:04:46.880 How did you trick me into being on a sports episode? 2:04:47.240 --> 2:04:49.040 I only agreed to this because I thought it was 2:04:49.200 --> 2:04:49.800 video game. 2:04:50.200 --> 2:04:52.600 Don't worry. We're we're we're we're almost We're almost done 2:04:52.640 --> 2:04:54.600 with the sports part of it. But there, I promise 2:04:54.680 --> 2:04:57.520 there is actually a reason why I'm doing this, which 2:04:57.560 --> 2:04:59.600 is which is the argument, that's that that sports and 2:04:59.600 --> 2:05:02.360 the sport and gaming actually serve very very similar cultural 2:05:02.440 --> 2:05:06.400 roles for the right. Yeah, of course, yes, I understand that. 2:05:06.640 --> 2:05:09.160 I can I can see that. Yes. Also, I've always 2:05:09.200 --> 2:05:10.880 wanted to fuck you complained about this on area and 2:05:10.880 --> 2:05:12.400 this is this is the best fucky chance I've ever 2:05:12.400 --> 2:05:15.000 gonna get, So Jesus fucking because it's like what I 2:05:15.120 --> 2:05:17.960 talk about, like movies or something. Is this, yes, yes, 2:05:18.080 --> 2:05:19.760 this is what it feels like. Is this what they 2:05:19.880 --> 2:05:22.800 sound like? Yes? It is it is absolutely what you 2:05:22.840 --> 2:05:26.200 sound like. So this guy is like a generationally awful quarterback, 2:05:26.240 --> 2:05:28.480 they sign away basically the entire future of this team 2:05:28.800 --> 2:05:30.920 hand this guy who is a serial sexual predator two 2:05:30.960 --> 2:05:33.040 hundred and thirty million dollars. And this is the guy 2:05:33.520 --> 2:05:35.760 that fucking Michael Lewis expects you to think is like 2:05:35.800 --> 2:05:39.920 a fucking analytics genius. And this all comes back to again, like, 2:05:40.600 --> 2:05:43.240 you know, the sort of mythology, the basic mythology of 2:05:43.280 --> 2:05:46.200 the nerd is that they're like picked on, like by 2:05:46.280 --> 2:05:48.080 the jock or whatever. Right, That's like that's like the 2:05:48.080 --> 2:05:50.240 fundamental base of their mythology that there's are like oppressed 2:05:50.240 --> 2:05:53.680 by this. But like it's just like the same masculinity 2:05:53.720 --> 2:05:56.720 bullshit all the way down. And you can watch like 2:05:56.920 --> 2:06:00.280 just like the worst people in fucking history just trick 2:06:00.360 --> 2:06:03.720 literally exactly the same people into thinking that they're fucking 2:06:03.800 --> 2:06:08.080 geniuses by using both of these fucking affects. So I 2:06:08.120 --> 2:06:10.240 want to read something, you know, in looking at the 2:06:10.280 --> 2:06:13.880 way that this stuff functions, the way that gaming functions, 2:06:13.920 --> 2:06:17.720 like specifically in the culture, and you know why these 2:06:17.720 --> 2:06:21.240 people choose to use gaming as like, you know, as 2:06:21.280 --> 2:06:23.360 as this sort of affect they're trying to project into 2:06:23.360 --> 2:06:25.520 the world. I want to read something by a friend 2:06:25.520 --> 2:06:28.120 of the show Vicky Osterweil, and a piece called game Boys. 2:06:29.280 --> 2:06:32.720 Video games also emerge at a time when technology facilitates 2:06:32.760 --> 2:06:37.680 an increasingly administered life in which alienation and isolation feel 2:06:37.680 --> 2:06:41.400 like a prerequisite to social engagement. Consumer choice is a 2:06:41.440 --> 2:06:46.120 form of control. An unbounded economic competition produces widespread anxiety 2:06:46.760 --> 2:06:50.280 to structure as pleasurable the repetition, learning, and boredom that 2:06:50.320 --> 2:06:54.520 one was master to live under current economic conditions. Games 2:06:54.520 --> 2:06:57.640 rely on affects, moods, and ideas that are capable of 2:06:57.680 --> 2:07:01.440 producing not only forms of violence directed towards non normative groups, 2:07:01.920 --> 2:07:05.400 but also forms of intimacy, fantasy, and play that point 2:07:05.480 --> 2:07:10.320 towards the horizon outside of capital's clutches. Games provide different 2:07:10.360 --> 2:07:13.640 compensations for people who are differently situated in the social hierarchy. 2:07:14.160 --> 2:07:18.720 They give white men aggrandizing power, inventions fantasies that modulate 2:07:18.760 --> 2:07:21.560 their sense of self importance under conditions that disempower them, 2:07:21.960 --> 2:07:24.600 but they are also capable of giving everyone else the 2:07:24.600 --> 2:07:28.640 fantasy of an alternative to white supremacist patriarchal capitalism. This 2:07:28.720 --> 2:07:31.800 has been particularly clear in how queer creators, writers, and 2:07:31.880 --> 2:07:34.640 fans have found space in and around games despite the 2:07:34.760 --> 2:07:39.760 organized harassment campaigns, intensely misogynist industry advertising campaigns, and widespread 2:07:39.800 --> 2:07:42.600 critical and cultural degradation of games that aren't played by 2:07:42.600 --> 2:07:45.840 CIS men. So I think the important thing here, and 2:07:45.840 --> 2:07:48.480 this is something important to remember both for Samba Been 2:07:48.480 --> 2:07:51.640 Freed and also for the construction of right wing gaming 2:07:51.680 --> 2:07:54.040 movements in general, and for what we're going to talk 2:07:54.040 --> 2:07:58.960 about with Elon Musk, is that gaming is contested ground. Right. 2:07:59.000 --> 2:08:01.960 As much as we think of as like right wingers, right, 2:08:02.120 --> 2:08:04.520 there are a lot of what you would call it 2:08:04.520 --> 2:08:07.400 to like traditionally sort of leftlooming demographics that play video 2:08:07.440 --> 2:08:10.360 games and have made spaces here because as much as 2:08:10.360 --> 2:08:12.879 they are in some ways like this force of discipline 2:08:12.920 --> 2:08:15.600 that like is something that you learn, the kinds of 2:08:15.760 --> 2:08:18.960 like ability to tolerate boredom and repetition and things like 2:08:19.000 --> 2:08:22.280 that that you know you use for fucking work, they're 2:08:22.400 --> 2:08:26.640 also a thing that people use to like escape the 2:08:26.720 --> 2:08:29.960 fucking hell world totally. And like, I mean I know 2:08:30.040 --> 2:08:33.160 this right, Like I am fucking like I'm a Chinese 2:08:33.200 --> 2:08:35.320 chance of better, he's better at video games, and both 2:08:35.400 --> 2:08:37.120 the people have been to be fucking talking about in 2:08:37.160 --> 2:08:39.560 this story, right, Like, well, I heard, I heard his Path. 2:08:39.400 --> 2:08:41.480 Of Exile character was actually quite advanced. 2:08:41.560 --> 2:08:43.400 But we're gonna we're gonna talk about the Path of 2:08:43.400 --> 2:08:45.840 Exile character fucking next, you know. But but I mean, 2:08:45.840 --> 2:08:48.320 it's it's worth mentioning, like speed running, right, which is 2:08:48.360 --> 2:08:51.160 a very very trans genre. 2:08:50.960 --> 2:08:54.960 Competitive gaming in general, competitive fighting games. 2:08:54.120 --> 2:08:56.040 Yeah, it depends. It depends a lot on the genre. 2:08:56.120 --> 2:08:59.440 But again, like competitive fighting games like yeah, Melee, I mean, 2:08:59.440 --> 2:09:01.920 I'm gonna brief mentioned Sonic Fox, who is a black, 2:09:01.960 --> 2:09:04.040 non binary furry who's like one of the greatest fighting 2:09:04.040 --> 2:09:08.800 game players of all time, incredibly beloved, the only person 2:09:08.800 --> 2:09:11.080 in history ever to beat someone thirteen to zero in 2:09:11.080 --> 2:09:14.000 a first to eleven absolute legends, right, But you know, 2:09:14.120 --> 2:09:16.720 these are the people that these sort of like fascist 2:09:16.760 --> 2:09:19.560 adjacent people are trying to drive out so they can 2:09:19.720 --> 2:09:21.640 use gaming as like as a sort of cultural force. 2:09:21.680 --> 2:09:26.000 And this functions both in gaming and also fuck it 2:09:26.040 --> 2:09:27.920 in real life. Right now that these people are in power, 2:09:28.320 --> 2:09:29.840 and you know who else is in power, it's a 2:09:29.840 --> 2:09:43.160 product and services to support this podcast, All Hail, we 2:09:43.400 --> 2:09:47.280 are back now. Obviously, the other part of this. You know, 2:09:47.280 --> 2:09:49.640 we've talked about we've talked mostly sort of about racial politics, 2:09:49.680 --> 2:09:52.480 but there's there's an incredible sort of gender politics in gaming. 2:09:53.080 --> 2:09:55.040 And you know, the thing about gaming, right is that 2:09:55.160 --> 2:09:59.360 it is to some extent a tool that people use 2:09:59.440 --> 2:10:02.000 to cope with, like, you know, the realization of the 2:10:02.040 --> 2:10:04.200 violence of the gender system. And like I am also 2:10:04.280 --> 2:10:07.960 doing this as much as the fucking weird white guy 2:10:08.080 --> 2:10:09.720 nazi like gamer dip shit. 2:10:09.840 --> 2:10:12.920 Right, Yeah, that's why I ooed up f F seven 2:10:13.320 --> 2:10:15.880 remake Hysteric Cloud Strife for hours on end when I'm 2:10:15.880 --> 2:10:16.520 feeling sad. 2:10:18.160 --> 2:10:21.040 But you know what the problem with what's happening here, right, 2:10:21.120 --> 2:10:23.880 is that, like the right, like that we're experiencing violence 2:10:23.880 --> 2:10:27.360 in different ways, but it's like the systemic violence from 2:10:27.400 --> 2:10:30.040 the gender system that is the same system, but these 2:10:30.080 --> 2:10:32.440 people's solution to is to blame it on women, right, 2:10:33.280 --> 2:10:34.600 And this is you know, I had a conversation with 2:10:34.680 --> 2:10:36.000 Vicky about this where a lot of this stuff is 2:10:36.000 --> 2:10:38.760 sort of drawn from and like I would compare it 2:10:38.800 --> 2:10:41.240 to like, you know, lots and lots of people deal 2:10:41.320 --> 2:10:44.440 with social isolation, right and and deal with this violence. 2:10:44.480 --> 2:10:46.320 But like you know, on the other hand, most of 2:10:46.360 --> 2:10:49.720 us don't become mass shooters most most Yeah, I would 2:10:49.720 --> 2:10:52.400 say that's that's true. Yeah, right, and so and so 2:10:52.440 --> 2:10:54.360 we can look at the structural forces that produces people 2:10:54.360 --> 2:10:56.680 and also just go like fuck them, like eat shit, 2:10:56.920 --> 2:10:59.720 like I'm sorry, you've you've become Nazis, like fuck off. 2:10:59.520 --> 2:11:03.480 Skillish you in some ways among other environmental factors. 2:11:03.600 --> 2:11:05.440 But yeah, yeah, but but also a lot of times 2:11:05.480 --> 2:11:08.720 these people aren't fucking like they're not dealing with shit 2:11:08.840 --> 2:11:11.000 at all, mostly, right, I mean like yeah, like okay, 2:11:11.040 --> 2:11:13.960 like Elon Musk's weird insecurity is to some extent because 2:11:13.960 --> 2:11:15.680 of the gender system, right, but like, also he is 2:11:15.720 --> 2:11:17.800 the richest man in the world, He's the most powerful 2:11:17.800 --> 2:11:19.840 man live, He's one of the most powerful people who 2:11:19.840 --> 2:11:23.920 has ever lived. And he still has the same sense 2:11:24.000 --> 2:11:27.480 of like aggrievement that powers all these people. And this 2:11:27.600 --> 2:11:29.200 is like one of the key things of like the 2:11:29.240 --> 2:11:32.640 gamer mythos, right, is that these people constantly believe that 2:11:32.640 --> 2:11:35.280 they're being oppressed by like jocks or whatever. And now 2:11:35.440 --> 2:11:38.080 it's it's been shifted into this not anymore. Yeah, Now 2:11:38.200 --> 2:11:40.160 now they believe that they're that they're being oppressed by 2:11:40.240 --> 2:11:43.080 like fucking women in minorities, right. 2:11:43.080 --> 2:11:45.360 And and it's actually the people who actually doing the 2:11:45.360 --> 2:11:48.520 oppression is now all of the doge nerds at. 2:11:48.360 --> 2:11:49.879 The top of the system. 2:11:49.960 --> 2:11:51.760 Now it's it's been we have we've had we've had 2:11:51.760 --> 2:11:53.760 a we've had a full Uno reverso. 2:11:54.000 --> 2:11:55.440 But the thing is, these people have always been at 2:11:55.440 --> 2:11:57.160 the top of the fucking system, right and like, But 2:11:57.160 --> 2:11:59.080 but it's this a fetny whis it's this it's this 2:11:59.120 --> 2:12:01.560 feeling they have of them being the ones who are 2:12:01.560 --> 2:12:04.040 oppressed that like you know, made them into the shock 2:12:04.080 --> 2:12:06.120 troopers that we saw with Gamergate. If you're gonna read 2:12:06.120 --> 2:12:07.760 one viciosc wral thing, and I'm signing her a lot 2:12:07.760 --> 2:12:09.240 because I think she's done a lot of the best 2:12:09.880 --> 2:12:12.320 critical reporting on video games, which is a field that 2:12:13.040 --> 2:12:15.880 I feel like we just haven't done much critical shit with. Like, 2:12:15.920 --> 2:12:17.760 I mean, there's been lots of stuff about working conditions 2:12:17.760 --> 2:12:20.000 in the games industry which are fucking terrible, and it's good, 2:12:20.040 --> 2:12:22.960 but like, as a medium, there hasn't been anywhere near 2:12:23.000 --> 2:12:24.960 as much critical engagement with it as there's been with 2:12:25.000 --> 2:12:28.280 like film or music. But if you're gonna read one 2:12:28.320 --> 2:12:30.600 thing from her, read a piece called goon Squad, which 2:12:30.600 --> 2:12:33.600 is about the sort of like fascist reaction to the 2:12:33.640 --> 2:12:36.920 really broken state of Cyberpunk twenty seventy seven when it 2:12:36.920 --> 2:12:39.640 came out. And one of the arguments that she makes 2:12:39.720 --> 2:12:41.800 is that these gamers are being i mean literally being 2:12:41.880 --> 2:12:44.080 used is like scabs and pinkertons against people who make 2:12:44.120 --> 2:12:46.520 video games, and you know, and this expands out to 2:12:46.680 --> 2:12:49.240 like workers more broadly, they're literally being used to silence 2:12:49.240 --> 2:12:51.600 anyone who talks about the problems with like this game 2:12:51.600 --> 2:12:54.120 that like when Cyberpink twenty seventy seven came out, it 2:12:54.160 --> 2:12:57.200 was literally giving people seizures because it was it had 2:12:57.280 --> 2:12:59.680 just like fucking strobing flashes and bullshit anthe they didn't 2:12:59.680 --> 2:13:02.360 want any one about because it was a broken, shitty game. 2:13:03.080 --> 2:13:05.200 And you know, they're also used for just like anti 2:13:05.280 --> 2:13:08.040 queer and like anti feminist rasping campaigns, and that's that's 2:13:08.080 --> 2:13:11.440 how they're sort of mobilized in real life too, And 2:13:11.520 --> 2:13:14.120 and that gives you an insight into why these people 2:13:14.160 --> 2:13:16.440 sort of like do this signaling, right, is that they're 2:13:16.440 --> 2:13:19.440 also like signaling to their base that like I am 2:13:19.440 --> 2:13:21.160 one of you, et cetera, et cetera, Like you should 2:13:21.200 --> 2:13:24.800 fucking support me for this shit now. Pivoting a little bit. 2:13:24.840 --> 2:13:27.000 So when I was first talking about this episode, I 2:13:27.080 --> 2:13:29.120 kept on accidentally saying Sam Altman as that of Sam 2:13:29.200 --> 2:13:30.640 Bankman freed because like man. 2:13:30.600 --> 2:13:31.960 They said, yeah, many such cases. 2:13:32.080 --> 2:13:35.280 Yeah, like the last the last fucking white boy scammer 2:13:35.600 --> 2:13:39.680 named Sam has been replaced by an additional subsequent white 2:13:39.680 --> 2:13:42.440 boy scammer named Sam. And it turns out though I 2:13:42.480 --> 2:13:44.720 looked up Sam Altman and he has also been doing 2:13:44.760 --> 2:13:48.520 this like gamer stick thing, like specifically in interviews with 2:13:48.560 --> 2:13:49.200 Elon Musk. 2:13:49.360 --> 2:13:49.520 Yeah. 2:13:49.720 --> 2:13:52.920 Yeah, it's fascinating. They're both fucking doing it now. And 2:13:53.160 --> 2:13:57.280 this brings us to the man who has spent the 2:13:57.280 --> 2:14:00.640 most time publicly lying about fucking video games recently, which 2:14:00.680 --> 2:14:04.480 is Elon Musk. Elon Musk is like not really a gamer. 2:14:05.040 --> 2:14:08.480 I would say, like he sort of plays video games. 2:14:08.880 --> 2:14:12.960 He's a Kenemine user. He's a Twitter power user. He 2:14:13.120 --> 2:14:14.440 is the shadow President. 2:14:15.320 --> 2:14:17.360 Yeah, the regis man of the World's ridges man who 2:14:17.360 --> 2:14:17.880 has ever lived. 2:14:17.960 --> 2:14:18.160 Yeah. 2:14:18.280 --> 2:14:21.320 Also, he is really obsessed with everyone thinking that he 2:14:21.400 --> 2:14:23.600 is like a he's an elite video game player in 2:14:23.640 --> 2:14:25.640 like multiple games. He's obsessed with this. 2:14:25.720 --> 2:14:28.400 He's also I believe the term is a meme. Lord 2:14:28.920 --> 2:14:30.160 h if I'm reading this right. 2:14:30.480 --> 2:14:32.760 Oh god, what one of his path of xtyle two 2:14:32.800 --> 2:14:34.680 characters I didn't put in the script because it's actually 2:14:34.720 --> 2:14:36.080 not the one we're gonna talk about, but one of 2:14:36.080 --> 2:14:39.320 his characters in that game was named Kekius Maximus, So like, 2:14:39.400 --> 2:14:40.800 this is the level of mind. 2:14:40.680 --> 2:14:43.200 That uh, that is one of his favorite names. In 2:14:43.240 --> 2:14:45.760 his White House office, he has a he has a 2:14:45.840 --> 2:14:50.120 Kechius Maximus portrait hanging behind his desk. There's an AI 2:14:50.240 --> 2:14:52.760 generated image of like pet bite the Frog and like 2:14:53.040 --> 2:14:57.520 and like Roman, like like Caesar at higher I hate everything. So, yeah, 2:14:57.560 --> 2:14:59.080 this is the guy who reads the country now. 2:14:59.320 --> 2:15:00.000 Yeah. 2:15:00.040 --> 2:15:00.360 Oops. 2:15:00.920 --> 2:15:02.840 So Elon Musk has been lying about being good at 2:15:02.880 --> 2:15:05.880 video games, and the preface to everything we're going to 2:15:05.880 --> 2:15:08.480 get to you is that he has. Actually he's like 2:15:08.600 --> 2:15:11.120 for a long time been doing a like I'm a 2:15:11.120 --> 2:15:14.160 gamer thing. So his his kind of problems, and I 2:15:14.160 --> 2:15:17.200 think really the origin of the weird paying people to 2:15:17.200 --> 2:15:19.200 make him look like he's good at video games thing 2:15:19.240 --> 2:15:21.200 that we're gonna get you in a second. This is 2:15:21.240 --> 2:15:23.400 something that that Blue Sky user gay Dog reminded me 2:15:23.440 --> 2:15:25.640 of because I'd forgot he has so many gaming scandals 2:15:25.640 --> 2:15:29.560 i'd forgotten about this one, which is that he at 2:15:29.560 --> 2:15:32.480 one point posted his build for the hit game Elden Ring, 2:15:32.600 --> 2:15:36.200 which is very difficult game, and he had two different 2:15:36.240 --> 2:15:41.280 shields equipped, which makes literally no sense. It's like over encumbered, 2:15:41.760 --> 2:15:46.120 Like it's okay, like the best expianation I've tried to 2:15:46.360 --> 2:15:48.680 I figured out for Like how bad at this game 2:15:48.720 --> 2:15:51.640 he is? Is that posting this build on Twitter is 2:15:51.680 --> 2:15:54.280 the video game equivalent of going like, hey, look at 2:15:54.320 --> 2:15:56.600 my fucking sports car. It's stepping into like the shittiest 2:15:56.600 --> 2:15:59.640 call you've ever seen, and then like slamming the accelerator 2:15:59.680 --> 2:16:00.760 with the working break on. 2:16:01.240 --> 2:16:03.840 Hey, I love the masdamiata. 2:16:03.480 --> 2:16:06.280 Like that's that's like the gaming of criminals. And everyone 2:16:06.280 --> 2:16:08.240 who looked at it immediately was like, this is the 2:16:08.320 --> 2:16:10.880 dumbest man who has ever lived. This man has no 2:16:10.960 --> 2:16:14.200 idea what the fuck he's doing. He is just like 2:16:14.200 --> 2:16:17.680 like unable to understand basic fundamental systems about this game, 2:16:18.200 --> 2:16:23.840 like just baffling incomprehensible bullshit. And this was like kind 2:16:23.840 --> 2:16:25.800 of a scandal for him. It wasn't like a huge one, 2:16:25.840 --> 2:16:27.720 but like especially like this is one that sort of 2:16:27.720 --> 2:16:29.720 broke on to the left a lot, and people were 2:16:29.720 --> 2:16:32.600 giving him shit about it. So the next time he 2:16:32.640 --> 2:16:35.320 wanted to brag about having been good at video games, 2:16:35.879 --> 2:16:38.959 he very clearly like paid someone else to like accomplish 2:16:38.959 --> 2:16:41.640 some stuff in this game called Yelbo four. I'm not 2:16:41.640 --> 2:16:43.520 gonna talk about Dielbow stuff much because I'm a Path 2:16:43.560 --> 2:16:45.360 of Exile player and not diebol player. The dialbum and 2:16:45.400 --> 2:16:47.240 Path of x ale like Fairy much the same kind 2:16:47.280 --> 2:16:50.280 of game, basically, like you click somewhere and your character 2:16:50.280 --> 2:16:52.879 goes there and you click other things that it does attacks. 2:16:53.800 --> 2:16:57.760 But famously, like this year, he pretended to be one 2:16:57.800 --> 2:17:00.720 of like the best Path of Exile two players in 2:17:00.760 --> 2:17:03.520 the world, and he was doing this on his alt account, 2:17:03.600 --> 2:17:07.760 which is has to handle. It's Cybergamer for twenty, but 2:17:07.879 --> 2:17:12.199 the all the e's are threes, So with's CYB three 2:17:12.480 --> 2:17:15.120 r g A M three R four twenty. 2:17:15.800 --> 2:17:18.440 Wait wait wait, wait, say say that again. 2:17:19.080 --> 2:17:26.359 It's at CYB three r GA M three R four twenty. 2:17:26.360 --> 2:17:29.520 So I think I found something. I think the four 2:17:29.520 --> 2:17:34.360 to twenty at the end is actually a reference to 2:17:34.440 --> 2:17:38.480 Hitler's birthday April twenty God damn it. 2:17:40.640 --> 2:17:44.040 So okay, he like claims to have one of the 2:17:44.120 --> 2:17:46.760 like the best characters in hardcore, which is in mode 2:17:46.800 --> 2:17:48.400 of Path of Exile where if he die once you 2:17:48.440 --> 2:17:51.280 get kicked out of it. So it's very hard to 2:17:51.400 --> 2:17:54.920 like prove that he actually did this. He like does 2:17:54.959 --> 2:17:57.400 a live stream where he tries to play Path of Exile, 2:17:58.080 --> 2:18:01.560 like on a Twitter live stream, and it is immediately 2:18:01.640 --> 2:18:03.640 obvious that, like he has no idea what he's doing. 2:18:04.080 --> 2:18:06.039 Like it's not just obviously people who play the game. 2:18:06.200 --> 2:18:08.040 I hadn't played Path of XL to at this point, right, 2:18:08.040 --> 2:18:10.560 I had only played the original one like a decade ago, 2:18:10.959 --> 2:18:13.080 like a little bit of it, and I took one 2:18:13.120 --> 2:18:14.840 look at what he was doing and immediately was like, 2:18:14.840 --> 2:18:17.000 this guy has never played this game before, like has 2:18:17.040 --> 2:18:19.400 no idea what he's fucking doing. Like it was so 2:18:19.520 --> 2:18:21.800 unbelievably obvious, Like he like walked past one of those 2:18:21.879 --> 2:18:24.240 valuable currencies in the game, just like walk past it, 2:18:24.320 --> 2:18:27.720 didn't notice it. It's like staggeringly obvious anyone who plays 2:18:27.760 --> 2:18:29.800 video games, This guy has no idea what the fuck 2:18:29.840 --> 2:18:33.800 he's doing. And this actually explodes on him and eventually 2:18:33.840 --> 2:18:37.120 he's forced to reveal that he paid someone to level 2:18:37.120 --> 2:18:38.560 of his Path of Exil to account, and then he 2:18:38.600 --> 2:18:40.520 claims that he never claims that it was his path 2:18:40.520 --> 2:18:45.640 of xel to account, and this Jenny Weinley has been 2:18:45.680 --> 2:18:49.560 a real problem for him because it pissed off like 2:18:49.640 --> 2:18:53.120 the entire gaming scene. So you have videos with like 2:18:53.200 --> 2:18:55.640 millions of views from guys like Asthmagold, who was like 2:18:55.680 --> 2:18:57.840 a he's a very famous right wing streamer who like 2:18:57.959 --> 2:19:01.800 sucks ass, like is like a turbo right winger, like 2:19:03.000 --> 2:19:07.400 spends his time screaming about how like black people in 2:19:07.520 --> 2:19:10.160 video games is dei and woke and how it's destroying 2:19:10.200 --> 2:19:14.320 the video game industry and fucking asthma Goold is watching 2:19:14.360 --> 2:19:16.119 this video and being like this guy is a lying 2:19:16.120 --> 2:19:19.879 piece of shit, what the fuck? And like everyone fucking 2:19:19.920 --> 2:19:24.000 reacts like this. It's genuinely wild. I've never actually seen 2:19:24.800 --> 2:19:28.600 people like react to this, to like to elon like 2:19:28.640 --> 2:19:30.440 this and like like again, like this is his allies 2:19:30.480 --> 2:19:33.920 on the right taking one look at this and being like, wait, 2:19:33.959 --> 2:19:39.199 this guy's just like lying. Now. What's interesting about about 2:19:39.200 --> 2:19:41.720 this to some extent is that, like, again, his whole 2:19:41.720 --> 2:19:43.520 thing here is he's trying to like pretend that he's 2:19:43.560 --> 2:19:45.520 like a pro gamer or whatever, but his affect is 2:19:45.520 --> 2:19:48.560 still largely targeted towards non gamers in the sense that 2:19:48.680 --> 2:19:51.600 like there's no way, I mean, okay, I guess it 2:19:51.680 --> 2:19:54.400 is possible that he genuinely is so ignorant that he 2:19:54.560 --> 2:19:56.200 believed that he could just pretend to be a top 2:19:56.240 --> 2:19:57.840 of Little Pets of Path of Exile player on a 2:19:57.879 --> 2:20:01.160 stream using someone else's account, but like, there's no way 2:20:01.160 --> 2:20:03.480 anyone who plays video games could fall for that. And 2:20:03.480 --> 2:20:05.199 and a lot of people he talks to about the stuff, 2:20:05.200 --> 2:20:09.520 for people like Joe Rogan who aren't like gamer TM people, right, 2:20:10.640 --> 2:20:11.840 it's like a lot of it's a lot of people 2:20:11.840 --> 2:20:13.480 who aren't gamers. And he's like sort of hyping up 2:20:13.480 --> 2:20:15.959 his reputation with and so he's weirdly on the one hand, yeah, 2:20:16.000 --> 2:20:18.440 he is signaling to his sort of fascist bass, but 2:20:18.480 --> 2:20:20.800 on the other hand, he's trying to use the sort 2:20:20.800 --> 2:20:23.480 of like cultural cachet of of gaming as like the 2:20:23.560 --> 2:20:27.000 sort of renegade right wing phenomena to like launder his reputation. 2:20:27.640 --> 2:20:31.160 Except he fucked up because he, you know, spent all 2:20:31.200 --> 2:20:34.680 of this time trying to like pretend to be a gamer. 2:20:34.720 --> 2:20:37.000 But the thing about gamers is that like there is 2:20:37.080 --> 2:20:40.400 literally an entire genre of video like on YouTube that 2:20:40.480 --> 2:20:43.320 is very, very popular. That is just like people exposing 2:20:43.320 --> 2:20:46.120 people who cheat in video games and cheated records of 2:20:46.200 --> 2:20:49.039 video games. And Elon has walked just like directly into 2:20:49.080 --> 2:20:50.600 this bear trap, right. 2:20:51.040 --> 2:20:55.080 And that means we got him, folks, mission accomplished. Wrap 2:20:55.120 --> 2:20:57.320 it up, We beat Elon him. 2:20:57.400 --> 2:20:57.959 It's over. 2:20:58.600 --> 2:21:01.879 He's he's been cast out of civil society for the 2:21:02.000 --> 2:21:06.720 high crime of pretending to play a video game. He's 2:21:06.840 --> 2:21:11.000 lost all respect among among the farthest reaches of the right. 2:21:12.000 --> 2:21:15.320 So what's next? We have what he has? He has 2:21:15.360 --> 2:21:17.080 one more scandal that we actually have to talk about. 2:21:17.200 --> 2:21:19.240 Is this about the one video game he hasn't played? 2:21:19.920 --> 2:21:23.920 Which is the funniest Elon musk gamer story in my opinion. 2:21:23.840 --> 2:21:24.600 Which which are you? 2:21:24.640 --> 2:21:24.800 Which? 2:21:24.800 --> 2:21:25.680 What are you talking about? 2:21:25.760 --> 2:21:28.120 That's the one that that that he he had to 2:21:28.160 --> 2:21:32.800 publicly announce that he he does not play GTA five. 2:21:33.000 --> 2:21:34.680 Oh, that was funny. I forgot about that. 2:21:34.720 --> 2:21:38.720 Because he doesn't like quote unquote doing crime and g 2:21:38.920 --> 2:21:42.560 t A five quote require shooting police officers in the 2:21:42.600 --> 2:21:46.240 opening scene. Just couldn't do it unquote. 2:21:46.240 --> 2:21:47.400 Oh, I really forgot about that. 2:21:47.879 --> 2:21:51.560 So that proofs that at least he has some integrity God. Now, 2:21:51.640 --> 2:21:55.840 some some gamers might be sick individuals acting out you know, 2:21:56.480 --> 2:22:00.040 violence power fantasies, but at least Musk has someone in 2:22:00.040 --> 2:22:05.000 tegrity to not harm police officers in GDA five. That 2:22:05.120 --> 2:22:07.560 really shows that there's like a moral compass behind all 2:22:07.640 --> 2:22:11.440 of this, you know, at times strange behavior. 2:22:12.520 --> 2:22:15.480 Yeah, that's also like, that's also him signaling to like 2:22:15.520 --> 2:22:18.039 a different like the weird Christian part of the bass. 2:22:18.160 --> 2:22:21.520 That's like, oh, violence and video games is bad because 2:22:21.520 --> 2:22:23.560 he's trying to single to all of his groups simultaneously, 2:22:24.000 --> 2:22:26.280 and all of them are like, this guy is a 2:22:26.320 --> 2:22:30.520 fucking loser who sucks ass and we hate him. 2:22:30.800 --> 2:22:33.640 It is pretty embarrassing. That doesn't bring me much joy 2:22:33.680 --> 2:22:36.600 because again he is the most powerful man in the world. No, 2:22:36.720 --> 2:22:38.720 but it is mildly amusing. 2:22:38.879 --> 2:22:40.840 Yeah, But so that there is a sort of serious 2:22:40.920 --> 2:22:43.440 note to this, which is that like the pushback he 2:22:43.600 --> 2:22:46.160 is getting here is like I think actually kind of 2:22:46.240 --> 2:22:48.720 is significant. So the last thing I want to talk 2:22:48.720 --> 2:22:50.520 about it is him pretending to have been like a 2:22:50.600 --> 2:22:54.280 quake pro which the thing that he did, and there's 2:22:54.320 --> 2:22:57.240 a very interesting video about this by the YouTuber Carl Jobs, 2:22:57.400 --> 2:22:59.600 who is like his thing is like people who fake 2:22:59.680 --> 2:23:02.680 who like fake things in video games basically, and he 2:23:02.840 --> 2:23:05.760 is like not a leftist. He's like like a center 2:23:05.840 --> 2:23:08.440 right guy basically. I mean, there's arguments about exactly how 2:23:08.440 --> 2:23:11.080 far right he is. But he did a video about 2:23:11.760 --> 2:23:14.280 about Elon claiming to be a quack player and what 2:23:14.360 --> 2:23:17.600 he found so is Elon like apparently did actually play 2:23:17.640 --> 2:23:19.360 in an early quake tournament, but none of the good 2:23:19.360 --> 2:23:21.520 players were there, and he he came his team came 2:23:21.560 --> 2:23:23.120 in second, but they came in second because they had 2:23:23.160 --> 2:23:26.240 better WiFi than everyone else and so they had less latency, 2:23:26.760 --> 2:23:28.760 which made them invincible until they ran into a team 2:23:28.760 --> 2:23:31.039 that also had good WiFi, and then he got destroyed, 2:23:31.560 --> 2:23:33.200 which I just I just think it's funny, right. That's 2:23:33.240 --> 2:23:35.400 like a classic Elon Musk story, which is he he 2:23:36.080 --> 2:23:38.920 has this theme claiming that he's like a fucking gamer legend, 2:23:39.160 --> 2:23:41.160 but it's actually because he had more money than everyone 2:23:41.200 --> 2:23:42.440 else until he ran some much who had the same 2:23:42.480 --> 2:23:44.240 amount of money that he did and just got destroyed. 2:23:45.240 --> 2:23:47.240 But the reason I bring this up is that, like 2:23:47.640 --> 2:23:50.640 at the end of this video, Jobst is like goes 2:23:50.640 --> 2:23:53.360 on this whole thing about how and this is this 2:23:53.400 --> 2:23:56.120 is like a stronger statement against Elon mustin I have 2:23:56.200 --> 2:23:58.920 seen from anything in the mainstream press where he literally 2:23:58.920 --> 2:24:00.480 goes on a thing where he says, Yeah, every single 2:24:00.520 --> 2:24:02.560 thing that Elon Musk has been saying here is a lie. 2:24:02.920 --> 2:24:06.200 And because he is just obviously lying out of his ass, 2:24:06.200 --> 2:24:08.039 but literally everything in a field that I know, this 2:24:08.080 --> 2:24:10.360 means that I literally can't trust him when he says 2:24:10.400 --> 2:24:12.960 anything about any other fucking field that I don't know. 2:24:14.120 --> 2:24:16.959 And this is a real shift, right, I have never 2:24:17.000 --> 2:24:20.080 seen a mainstream journalist write down Elon Musk is just 2:24:20.120 --> 2:24:22.440 clearly a liar about this, and so you should not 2:24:22.480 --> 2:24:25.560 be able to trust anything else he fucking says. This 2:24:25.640 --> 2:24:27.800 is a larger degree of pushback than anything else ever 2:24:27.840 --> 2:24:31.720 fucking seen outside of like the left about what Elon 2:24:31.840 --> 2:24:33.640 Musk is doing, and like just the willingness to just 2:24:33.640 --> 2:24:35.600 be like, this guy is a fucking just just a 2:24:35.640 --> 2:24:38.440 serial liar, Like everything says is a lie. He literally 2:24:38.480 --> 2:24:40.200 calls him a con like, says that his activity is 2:24:40.200 --> 2:24:42.200 like a con man. He says the things that he's 2:24:42.200 --> 2:24:44.760 saying are like either liars or delusional. There is a 2:24:44.840 --> 2:24:46.959 kind of like shift happening right now where people like 2:24:47.080 --> 2:24:49.840 really are turning on him. There's a day to happen 2:24:49.920 --> 2:24:53.040 literally today where Ubisoft. You know, ubi Soft is a 2:24:53.080 --> 2:24:57.360 famously like not a leftist company, right, Like they've done 2:24:57.360 --> 2:25:00.800 a lot of horrible, fucked up sexual assault stuff. So 2:25:01.240 --> 2:25:04.000 Elon's mad at Ubisoft because one of their games as 2:25:04.040 --> 2:25:06.600 a black guy as like a character in it, and 2:25:07.200 --> 2:25:10.120 literally the official Assassin's Create accounts replied to one of 2:25:10.120 --> 2:25:13.480 his tweets saying, is that what the guy playing your 2:25:13.480 --> 2:25:16.400 Path of Axile two account told you? And like replied 2:25:16.520 --> 2:25:19.760 and replied to a thing about Hassan, Like, we are 2:25:19.840 --> 2:25:23.959 genuinely seeing a shift in this space, right this thing 2:25:24.000 --> 2:25:26.480 that had been like a really really consistent base of 2:25:26.520 --> 2:25:30.480 support with people like Elon is kind of fracturing against 2:25:30.560 --> 2:25:32.400 him and is sort of being polarized against him by 2:25:32.440 --> 2:25:36.120 just like the fact that he's just is so obviously 2:25:36.160 --> 2:25:39.480 cynically pandering to them, and how unbelievably transparent it is, 2:25:40.320 --> 2:25:42.360 and like obviously, like I don't think like the gamers 2:25:42.400 --> 2:25:44.960 are going to like fucking rise up or whatever. But 2:25:45.280 --> 2:25:47.520 the actual serious point to all of this, other than 2:25:47.680 --> 2:25:49.760 like looking at the ways of fascism, like why these 2:25:49.800 --> 2:25:51.600 people do this and like gamers is like a demographic 2:25:51.600 --> 2:25:54.360 that's important to these people is that, like, the way 2:25:54.400 --> 2:25:57.320 that you destroy a coalition by this isn't necessarily by 2:25:57.360 --> 2:26:02.080 flipping everyone over to your side, right, that doesn't happen 2:26:02.200 --> 2:26:04.600 that often. But one of the ways you can do this, 2:26:04.680 --> 2:26:06.480 and this is this is, you know, to take a 2:26:06.520 --> 2:26:09.360 really really dramatic example, this is how the Bolsheviks won 2:26:09.400 --> 2:26:13.160 the October Revolution. They got their opponents to allies to 2:26:13.200 --> 2:26:16.800 stay home and that was enough enough people just staying 2:26:16.800 --> 2:26:19.680 on the fucking sidelines when the Bolsheviks like came for 2:26:19.760 --> 2:26:22.880 Cureanzi's government was enough for them to take power. And 2:26:23.640 --> 2:26:26.320 I think like the actual, like the actual serious points 2:26:26.320 --> 2:26:28.560 of this is that the only way that we get 2:26:28.560 --> 2:26:31.360 out of this mess is by just systematically tearing away 2:26:31.400 --> 2:26:33.720 these people's coalitions so that when the confrontation with these 2:26:33.720 --> 2:26:36.760 people comes, there are enough people who would be their 2:26:36.800 --> 2:26:40.840 supporters who just fucking stay home that they can they 2:26:40.840 --> 2:26:41.560 can be stopped. 2:26:41.800 --> 2:26:46.000 So this is at Mia Wong publicly calling for the 2:26:46.080 --> 2:26:47.560 start of gamer Gate two. 2:26:47.800 --> 2:26:49.680 Gamer Gate two is already happening, damn it. This is 2:26:49.680 --> 2:26:50.480 gamer Gate three. 2:26:50.720 --> 2:26:55.240 This is an open call to begin gamer Gate two 2:26:55.280 --> 2:26:58.680 point five right now on behalf of me along. Make 2:26:58.760 --> 2:27:04.480 sure you at Mia oh no, and then hopefully and 2:27:04.520 --> 2:27:09.959 I'll finally usher in the American Bolshevik revolution after we 2:27:09.959 --> 2:27:14.440 get enough gamers just to stay home or even better 2:27:14.560 --> 2:27:16.760 rise up right, we can we can make some kind 2:27:16.800 --> 2:27:19.760 of graphic with like a fist holding a controller or 2:27:19.959 --> 2:27:20.640 a keyboard. 2:27:20.720 --> 2:27:24.720 If you're a nerd about it. Gamers are the cosacks. 2:27:24.720 --> 2:27:26.680 We've got to get them to knock back the regime. 2:27:27.000 --> 2:27:29.120 That's actually the February Revolution where theytood down. But you know, 2:27:29.520 --> 2:27:33.320 same point, same point. Come on ya, geez fuck I 2:27:33.360 --> 2:27:35.360 am one of the biggest things of Like, people need 2:27:35.400 --> 2:27:37.560 to remember that that Lenin did not overthrow the czar. 2:27:37.720 --> 2:27:40.520 He overthrew Kerensky, who was kind of a socialist e 2:27:40.640 --> 2:27:42.640 guy who was run the provisional government in between the 2:27:42.680 --> 2:27:44.520 first Okay, we're done, we're done here, we're done here, 2:27:44.520 --> 2:27:45.920 we're working out, we're leaving. 2:27:46.680 --> 2:27:47.800 What games are you playing? 2:27:47.879 --> 2:27:51.560 What games am I playing? Pathaxtyle to don't play Rotato 2:27:51.640 --> 2:27:54.440 it will consume your life. Okay, play robo quest. Robo 2:27:54.480 --> 2:27:57.920 Quest is great. Roboquest dares to ask the question what if, 2:27:58.000 --> 2:28:01.920 Like the art style of Borderland was used for a 2:28:01.959 --> 2:28:05.680 game about rehabilitative Justice. But also you're doing the roguelike 2:28:05.920 --> 2:28:07.959 with like Doom's combat. 2:28:07.640 --> 2:28:10.520 That sounds very gay, so I probably can't do that. 2:28:10.600 --> 2:28:14.800 Then I do Hell Divers too, nearly every Monday. Armored 2:28:14.840 --> 2:28:15.879 Corps six. 2:28:16.120 --> 2:28:17.840 Course six Rules. Love that game. Love that game. 2:28:18.520 --> 2:28:23.640 Sonic X Shadow Generations, Final Fantasy, Sevin, and I'm waiting 2:28:24.160 --> 2:28:26.520 for Mecca Break to come out for like their their 2:28:26.520 --> 2:28:30.480 official release now that the beta's closed. Unfortunately, the character 2:28:30.520 --> 2:28:32.199 selection is very gooner. 2:28:31.920 --> 2:28:34.640 Coded, many many such cases, so I made sure to. 2:28:34.560 --> 2:28:38.560 Make the smallest the smallest chest size available on my 2:28:38.760 --> 2:28:42.160 on my model. But the gameplay is fun. 2:28:44.160 --> 2:28:47.720 This has been it could happen here. I good lords, 2:28:48.720 --> 2:28:51.840 they pay me for this. I had to. I had 2:28:51.840 --> 2:28:55.160 to watch so many videos about Deshaun Watson and fucking 2:28:55.200 --> 2:29:24.200 clips of of of Elon Musk playing video games for this. 2:29:24.200 --> 2:29:27.840 This is it could happen here. Executive Disorder our weekly. 2:29:27.520 --> 2:29:30.760 Newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world, 2:29:30.840 --> 2:29:32.879 and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis. Today 2:29:32.879 --> 2:29:36.280 I'm joined by James Stout and Robert Evans. You are 2:29:36.480 --> 2:29:39.680 This week, we are covering the week of March twenty 2:29:39.959 --> 2:29:41.720 to March twenty six. 2:29:42.760 --> 2:29:45.440 Short week because we did a late recording last week. 2:29:45.680 --> 2:29:49.800 Yep, we did, so it's minus one day if my 2:29:49.920 --> 2:29:52.680 math is correct. It's been a hard week for many 2:29:52.760 --> 2:29:55.920 of us because we all really care about group chats, 2:29:56.000 --> 2:29:58.840 and group chat security is super important. Oh yeah, to 2:29:58.920 --> 2:30:01.160 kind of have anyone involved in politics, and whenever we 2:30:01.200 --> 2:30:04.400 see a breach of this magnitude, it's really a warning 2:30:04.520 --> 2:30:06.880 and like a threat to all of us. So it 2:30:06.959 --> 2:30:08.840 has it has been. It has been a tough week. 2:30:09.240 --> 2:30:11.600 Yeah, Like a threat to one is a threat to all. So, 2:30:11.680 --> 2:30:13.600 like the way I see it, any group chat that 2:30:13.640 --> 2:30:15.439 gets compromised, first. 2:30:15.160 --> 2:30:19.280 They came for hoothypc's ball group. Yeah, that's xt. Next 2:30:19.280 --> 2:30:20.240 they're gonna come. 2:30:20.160 --> 2:30:22.160 Be any of us could be any of us. Jeffrey 2:30:22.160 --> 2:30:25.680 Goldberg could be lurking in your small group. That's you 2:30:25.760 --> 2:30:28.800 and your girlfriend talking about what kind of pizza to order. 2:30:29.000 --> 2:30:31.920 He could be there reporting for The Atlantic. You wouldn't 2:30:31.920 --> 2:30:34.520 know unless you like looked at who was in there 2:30:34.879 --> 2:30:38.160 and saw his name, then you would know, which is 2:30:38.160 --> 2:30:40.000 true of all of the people in the hoothy PC 2:30:40.160 --> 2:30:40.720 small group. 2:30:40.879 --> 2:30:42.360 I guess it is actually pretty easy. 2:30:43.080 --> 2:30:46.200 You don't know, maybe maybe different Goldbudge signal name is 2:30:46.280 --> 2:30:50.480 like like CIA Superspy or something, and everyone's assumed along there. 2:30:50.920 --> 2:30:53.120 I'm gonna start at the beginning, because I do assume 2:30:53.160 --> 2:30:55.800 that actually, like as impossible as it sounds to those 2:30:55.840 --> 2:30:59.400 of us who like wake up and imbibe fucking social 2:30:59.440 --> 2:31:02.680 media morning, like an addict takes their first hit of 2:31:02.720 --> 2:31:05.480 crack cocaine, but in a way that's less healthy for 2:31:05.560 --> 2:31:08.640 both our hearts and our brains. A decent number of 2:31:08.680 --> 2:31:10.680 people who listen to this podcast have just kind of 2:31:10.720 --> 2:31:12.840 like heard vaguely like some bits about this. 2:31:12.959 --> 2:31:14.880 Yeah, they're wondering, what the fuck we're talking about? 2:31:14.920 --> 2:31:16.320 What are you doing? What are you guys doing this? 2:31:16.600 --> 2:31:19.440 So we're gonna talk about this group chat. So first off, 2:31:19.520 --> 2:31:22.480 couple of basics. So, Signal is an app that is 2:31:22.680 --> 2:31:24.840 end to end encrypted. That means that if you have 2:31:24.920 --> 2:31:27.840 Signal and your buddy has Signal and you're messaging each other, 2:31:28.160 --> 2:31:31.200 it's encrypted, and it is very hard at this point 2:31:31.840 --> 2:31:35.520 unless one of your phones is directly compromised by a 2:31:35.560 --> 2:31:39.200 non state actor or an X who's really good with 2:31:39.280 --> 2:31:42.240 the computers, no one else can see what you're messaging 2:31:42.280 --> 2:31:45.000 each other. So if you and a friend are like 2:31:45.080 --> 2:31:48.320 planning what to order on fucking grub Hub tonight when 2:31:48.320 --> 2:31:50.880 you go play Super Smash Brothers or whatever, you can 2:31:50.959 --> 2:31:52.800 keep that secret. Or if you and a friend are 2:31:52.840 --> 2:31:55.520 planning what substances to buy that the government might not 2:31:55.560 --> 2:31:58.240 want you buying, you can keep that secret. Or if 2:31:58.280 --> 2:32:02.080 you and your friend simply don't want various media companies 2:32:02.160 --> 2:32:05.320 taking every detail and phone carriers taking every detail of 2:32:05.360 --> 2:32:09.320 your life's conversations and turning that into analytics data, you 2:32:09.360 --> 2:32:11.640 can stop them from doing that. And if maybe one 2:32:11.720 --> 2:32:14.279 day you might be engaged in speech that the government 2:32:14.360 --> 2:32:16.720 might not like, you can continue to engage in that 2:32:16.800 --> 2:32:18.959 speech privately without danger. 2:32:18.800 --> 2:32:19.760 Or with less danger. 2:32:20.200 --> 2:32:22.720 Yeah, or with with as little danger as it is 2:32:22.760 --> 2:32:23.440 possible to do. 2:32:23.600 --> 2:32:28.320 Especially if your messages automatically explode after anywhere between five 2:32:28.400 --> 2:32:31.760 seconds to a week, right, which is a feature Signal has. 2:32:31.879 --> 2:32:34.440 Yes, you can automatically set it to delete stuff over 2:32:34.440 --> 2:32:36.360 a period of time you want to. If you're going 2:32:36.400 --> 2:32:38.640 to use it, turn off the thing where it like 2:32:38.720 --> 2:32:41.800 pushes messages so that you can like see visible notifications. 2:32:41.879 --> 2:32:43.720 So yeah, not if you turn them off, because that's 2:32:43.720 --> 2:32:44.959 a that'll function. 2:32:44.840 --> 2:32:47.840 Up because then your operating system can read the messages 2:32:47.879 --> 2:32:51.600 without the encryption. Similarly, never open a QR code. This 2:32:51.680 --> 2:32:54.360 is the yes, really the only way that signal can 2:32:54.480 --> 2:32:57.840 can get compromised on like scale right now beyond like 2:32:57.879 --> 2:33:01.760 physical infiltration, right like what accidentally happened with who the 2:33:01.800 --> 2:33:02.600 PC smell Group. 2:33:02.800 --> 2:33:04.600 But the main other way. 2:33:04.400 --> 2:33:08.360 That signal kanka compromised is through malicious QR codes and 2:33:08.640 --> 2:33:11.760 unknown links. So really be careful about links as always 2:33:11.959 --> 2:33:15.600 on the Internet, and especially be skeptical of QR codes. 2:33:15.840 --> 2:33:18.160 Yeah, there's a there's a quote from Herman Garring. I 2:33:18.160 --> 2:33:20.039 think it was from Herman Gehring. When I hear the 2:33:20.040 --> 2:33:22.760 word culture, I reach for my revolver, and I have 2:33:22.879 --> 2:33:26.480 adapted that gearing quote to the modern era. When I 2:33:26.480 --> 2:33:29.480 hear QR code, I reach for Mike clock nineteen. 2:33:29.760 --> 2:33:32.920 That's right, do not do not use koorotes. Yeah, the 2:33:33.040 --> 2:33:35.960 work of Satan. Let's explain what who the PC small 2:33:36.000 --> 2:33:38.440 Group is for the people. I'm getting to it. 2:33:38.520 --> 2:33:40.920 So you've got you've got this app which is normally 2:33:41.040 --> 2:33:43.000 used by and has been used for a long time 2:33:43.040 --> 2:33:46.240 by like protesters and dissidents and journalists to communicate with sources. 2:33:46.280 --> 2:33:50.360 Because it's very secure the Trump administration takes office. One 2:33:50.400 --> 2:33:52.280 thing that they are annoyed about is that when you 2:33:52.320 --> 2:33:55.240 are government employees, even if you're doing top secret shit, 2:33:55.480 --> 2:33:58.039 especially if you're doing top secret shit, the kind of 2:33:58.120 --> 2:34:02.320 meetings about national security planning for like military actions that 2:34:02.440 --> 2:34:05.520 you are supposed to only have in something called a skiff, 2:34:05.560 --> 2:34:09.040 and a skiff is basically a room in you know, 2:34:09.320 --> 2:34:11.560 the West Wing, I think, or the Pentagon, right, I'm 2:34:11.560 --> 2:34:13.280 not one hundred percent sure where all the skiffs are, 2:34:13.320 --> 2:34:15.959 but it's like a room that is incredibly secure, and 2:34:16.000 --> 2:34:18.560 it is the only place that you are supposed to 2:34:18.560 --> 2:34:22.280 have certain kinds of conversations. And in fact, if you 2:34:22.360 --> 2:34:25.320 are having one of those kinds of conversations in a skiff, 2:34:25.600 --> 2:34:28.359 no one, not even the president or the vice president, 2:34:28.640 --> 2:34:30.560 is allowed to have a phone in there. It is 2:34:30.600 --> 2:34:33.760 a very strict rule. You don't take phones into the 2:34:33.800 --> 2:34:37.440 skiff because none of them are fucking secure. Now, the 2:34:37.520 --> 2:34:41.400 problem is all these communications, all of this stuff is 2:34:41.480 --> 2:34:45.320 documented and potentially foilable. Maybe not immediately because there's always 2:34:45.360 --> 2:34:47.800 security concerns. They have the ability to redact. 2:34:47.400 --> 2:34:50.080 Stuff, but in twenty years perhaps, but at some. 2:34:50.160 --> 2:34:53.160 Point, yeah, it might be archived. Even if it's not flable. 2:34:53.240 --> 2:34:56.720 People who are in charge of our military now didn't 2:34:56.760 --> 2:34:59.280 like that and were like, hey, what if we all 2:34:59.320 --> 2:35:02.039 just did it through a single group, And they did 2:35:02.879 --> 2:35:05.879 to plan for an attack that started March fifteenth against 2:35:05.920 --> 2:35:07.880 the Hoothies. Now you will remember the Hoothies from the 2:35:07.920 --> 2:35:10.120 episode James and I did, I mean from other stuff too, 2:35:10.120 --> 2:35:11.000 because they're all over the. 2:35:10.959 --> 2:35:14.320 News, you know, the the hoothy stuff. 2:35:14.600 --> 2:35:16.640 James and I did an episode recently about a regular 2:35:16.760 --> 2:35:18.920 naval warfare, and you check it out. That's all still 2:35:19.000 --> 2:35:19.720 pretty relevant. 2:35:20.040 --> 2:35:22.160 Better known for their other work, yeah. 2:35:21.959 --> 2:35:25.360 Better known for their other work. The Biden administration was like, 2:35:25.720 --> 2:35:28.240 we can probably take care of these guys with air strikes, 2:35:28.600 --> 2:35:31.600 and it didn't really work. And the Trump administration was like, 2:35:31.680 --> 2:35:33.400 we can do a better job of taking these guys 2:35:33.400 --> 2:35:35.640 out with air strikes. And at this point it's too 2:35:35.640 --> 2:35:37.480 early to say if it worked or not, but I'm 2:35:37.520 --> 2:35:38.880 gonna guess probably didn't. 2:35:39.000 --> 2:35:41.119 Probably not, just generally given the history. 2:35:41.160 --> 2:35:43.760 Maybe they say they killed a lot more high value 2:35:43.840 --> 2:35:45.760 targets and top missile guys. 2:35:45.760 --> 2:35:47.920 The main missile guy quote, I don't know. 2:35:49.240 --> 2:35:52.000 I don't know. I'm not privy to the information. They're 2:35:52.040 --> 2:35:54.600 working off of or how much it matters at this point. Right, 2:35:55.160 --> 2:35:57.720 So we'll see you in that signal chat. Rob, I'm 2:35:57.720 --> 2:36:00.640 not in that signal chat. They have not accidental. 2:36:00.280 --> 2:36:02.800 I I'm in too many signal chats, frankly. 2:36:02.920 --> 2:36:04.840 Yeah, Yeah, I could be, and I might not know. 2:36:05.120 --> 2:36:07.160 Yeah, we all are in too many. 2:36:07.400 --> 2:36:09.360 I might be in several government ones would be totally 2:36:09.440 --> 2:36:11.920 unaware of it because there's too many notifications on that. 2:36:11.920 --> 2:36:13.480 Shit's mute and I'm not seeing that. 2:36:13.600 --> 2:36:17.480 Yeah. So they decide we're gonna plan an attack on 2:36:17.840 --> 2:36:19.920 some hoothies. We're gonna be hitting them with stuff, and 2:36:19.920 --> 2:36:21.440 we should probably all get We need to get all 2:36:21.440 --> 2:36:23.720 of these different kind of people from different chunks of 2:36:23.800 --> 2:36:26.360 the uh, you know, the government together. So we got 2:36:26.360 --> 2:36:29.120 to have JD. Vance and his representative because usually Vance 2:36:29.200 --> 2:36:31.320 is too busy to respond. And we got to have 2:36:31.360 --> 2:36:34.760 the Defense Secretary Pete he Zeth and his representative. We've 2:36:34.760 --> 2:36:37.840 got to have the d n I Toulci Gabbard her representative. 2:36:37.840 --> 2:36:39.920 We've got to have the head of the CIA his 2:36:40.000 --> 2:36:41.760 represent you know that kind of thing. There's a few 2:36:41.800 --> 2:36:45.440 more people in there. Mark Rubio, Mark Rubio, right Sex State, 2:36:45.600 --> 2:36:49.440 you know, and his representative, Raevin Miller, Stephen Miller. I 2:36:49.480 --> 2:36:51.640 don't know that Miller had a representative. He feels like 2:36:51.680 --> 2:36:53.240 he handles a lot of this stuff on his own. 2:36:53.280 --> 2:36:57.080 But yeah, on his phone too much, Steven Miller. 2:36:57.200 --> 2:36:59.039 Yeah, chronically online Steven Miller. 2:36:59.400 --> 2:37:02.119 Yeah, and you have the head of I think Syncom 2:37:02.200 --> 2:37:04.800 was in there. Anyway. You got all these people in there, 2:37:05.000 --> 2:37:08.280 and while they're setting this up, all the invites are 2:37:08.320 --> 2:37:09.800 going out. Because the way you do it with Signal 2:37:09.879 --> 2:37:11.720 is you click a button that says, like start a 2:37:11.720 --> 2:37:14.080 new group. You name the new group. In this case, 2:37:14.240 --> 2:37:17.119 they named the group hoo, the PC small group, right, 2:37:17.720 --> 2:37:19.520 and uh shit, what does PC stand for? 2:37:19.520 --> 2:37:22.480 In this politically correct? Which, honestly I thought that we 2:37:22.480 --> 2:37:22.959 were over. 2:37:23.440 --> 2:37:25.920 Yeah, you'd think so, huh don't Sandy slur's in the 2:37:25.920 --> 2:37:28.040 group chat? That says what it's just a reminder. 2:37:28.360 --> 2:37:31.320 Yeah, yeah, no slurs in the small group chat. 2:37:31.440 --> 2:37:33.440 Planning committee, I'm guessing, yeah. 2:37:33.280 --> 2:37:35.600 Planning committee. Who they planning committee? Small group? Sorry, I 2:37:35.600 --> 2:37:38.680 had that written down somewhere. So they make this group 2:37:38.760 --> 2:37:41.520 chat and they invite a bunch of people. And here's 2:37:41.520 --> 2:37:43.840 the way. One of the ways Signal works is that like, 2:37:44.280 --> 2:37:47.040 if you're just importing your contacts in the signal, it'll 2:37:47.080 --> 2:37:49.080 find the guys who have signal, and it'll just like 2:37:49.120 --> 2:37:51.120 show you, based on whatever your name you have for 2:37:51.160 --> 2:37:53.520 them in their phone right that they're on signal, and 2:37:53.560 --> 2:37:56.440 you can just invite them. Otherwise, you can set what 2:37:56.480 --> 2:37:58.400 your signal name is going to be, and so when 2:37:58.400 --> 2:38:00.600 people type in your phone number or whatever, they'll see that, 2:38:01.080 --> 2:38:03.320 or if you send them an invite, that's the name 2:38:03.360 --> 2:38:06.240 they'll see. And this brings us. I got to take 2:38:06.240 --> 2:38:07.640 an aside to talk about a guy who is not 2:38:07.680 --> 2:38:09.680 a member of the Trump administration and who is not 2:38:09.720 --> 2:38:12.440 a member of government, a man named Jeffrey Goldberg born 2:38:12.480 --> 2:38:16.440 in nineteen sixty five. He is currently the co editor 2:38:16.560 --> 2:38:19.800 of the Atlantic. Prior to this, he had what some 2:38:19.840 --> 2:38:23.320 people would call an illustrious career. He grew up in 2:38:23.400 --> 2:38:27.400 Malvern and Long Eye and I'm Maulvin. Yeah, what I'm 2:38:27.400 --> 2:38:29.520 looking at his wiki here, which just has the line 2:38:29.560 --> 2:38:32.600 that his neighborhood was mainly Catholic and he described it 2:38:32.640 --> 2:38:34.959 as a wasteland of Irish pagramists. 2:38:35.080 --> 2:38:40.439 Oh I, he had a fun childhood, So okay, interesting, 2:38:40.720 --> 2:38:41.760 interesting Jeffrey. 2:38:42.280 --> 2:38:43.600 Fascinating stuff there. 2:38:43.840 --> 2:38:44.360 Interesting. 2:38:45.320 --> 2:38:48.279 So after college or kind of while he's in college, 2:38:48.360 --> 2:38:50.400 he leaves and he goes to Israel because he wants 2:38:50.440 --> 2:38:53.240 to serve in the IDF during the Intifada, the first 2:38:53.280 --> 2:38:56.200 one as a prison guard Jesus Christ, which is where 2:38:56.280 --> 2:39:00.840 Palestinian participants in the Intefhub were being held. And yeah, 2:39:01.120 --> 2:39:05.240 he he had like an interesting conversation with this PLO 2:39:05.360 --> 2:39:08.440 leader who is also like a math teacher, who I 2:39:08.440 --> 2:39:12.480 guess they were able to like discuss their Zionism or 2:39:12.480 --> 2:39:15.480 whatever in some way that he found useful. Anyway, weird guy, 2:39:15.920 --> 2:39:18.039 not a I bring this up to be like, not 2:39:18.080 --> 2:39:19.480 a left wing radical. 2:39:19.520 --> 2:39:21.879 Like not one of quote unquote to our guys. 2:39:21.760 --> 2:39:24.600 Not one of our guys. Not a guy who's probably 2:39:24.600 --> 2:39:27.800 broadly opposed to most of and in fact to most 2:39:27.840 --> 2:39:29.200 of what the Trump administration is. 2:39:29.120 --> 2:39:30.960 Doing, especially the air strikes. 2:39:31.000 --> 2:39:34.080 Frankly, yes, now he has pissed off It's fair to 2:39:34.120 --> 2:39:37.440 say he has really pissed off Trump a number of times, 2:39:37.520 --> 2:39:39.920 right because he wrote some articles. He wrote that twenty 2:39:39.920 --> 2:39:43.120 twenty article in the Atlantic about when Trump said got 2:39:43.160 --> 2:39:45.359 caught saying that Americans who died in wars are losers 2:39:45.360 --> 2:39:48.039 and suckers. Yes, which is you know based on sourcing 2:39:48.080 --> 2:39:51.000 that he had, so he's also attracted their ire. But 2:39:51.040 --> 2:39:54.039 he's again generally I would say, like more on the 2:39:54.080 --> 2:39:56.320 bootleoker east side of things, Like he's just kind of 2:39:56.360 --> 2:39:59.360 like a NATSEK cheerleader, Right, that would be a fair 2:39:59.360 --> 2:40:01.240 way to describe Jeffrey totally. I don't know that he 2:40:01.280 --> 2:40:04.280 would entirely disagree with that description of himself. 2:40:04.600 --> 2:40:06.640 Yeah, like a neobe guy. 2:40:06.600 --> 2:40:09.240 That said, he's not so much of one that he's 2:40:09.320 --> 2:40:11.760 unwilling to report critical stuff, which is what happens here. 2:40:11.760 --> 2:40:14.680 So he gets an invite on his phone that it 2:40:14.879 --> 2:40:17.480 just takes him into this PC houthy small group and 2:40:17.480 --> 2:40:19.879 people have done the work. There's another guy in the 2:40:19.879 --> 2:40:21.680 Trump administration whose initials are. 2:40:21.680 --> 2:40:23.959 JC John Greenbrier I believe. 2:40:24.160 --> 2:40:27.600 Yeah, I think it was John Greenbrier and the person 2:40:27.600 --> 2:40:30.440 who because there was some debate initially about like who 2:40:30.520 --> 2:40:33.640 invited him, because after this came out, there were allegations 2:40:33.640 --> 2:40:36.400 that he snuck his way in or whatever. We now 2:40:36.440 --> 2:40:39.400 know based on the evidence that he was inadvertently invited 2:40:39.440 --> 2:40:43.119 by National Security Advisor Michael Waltz, right. 2:40:43.480 --> 2:40:45.039 As evidenced by the signal screen shot. 2:40:45.120 --> 2:40:48.280 Yes, yes, yes, there's lots of screenshots. Jeffrey did his 2:40:48.440 --> 2:40:51.280 you know, the job of document eventually, yes, well he 2:40:51.360 --> 2:40:52.520 documented it right away. 2:40:52.680 --> 2:40:52.840 Yes. 2:40:53.000 --> 2:40:56.640 So now here's the thing. From the beginning here, Jeffrey 2:40:56.720 --> 2:40:59.800 is having the natural reaction. I will say this role, Mike, 2:40:59.840 --> 2:41:01.680 you're of him. He has the reaction I think any 2:41:02.000 --> 2:41:04.720 minimally competent journalists would have. Someone's fucking with me. 2:41:04.800 --> 2:41:06.480 Yeah, yeah, this is like something to get me. 2:41:06.560 --> 2:41:08.760 Yeah, you don't get invited into a chat with the 2:41:08.800 --> 2:41:10.920 sect deaf and the head of the CIA planning a 2:41:10.920 --> 2:41:12.279 military strike. 2:41:12.080 --> 2:41:12.600 Right like this. 2:41:13.160 --> 2:41:14.960 That doesn't happen. I had a bit of journalist for 2:41:15.000 --> 2:41:16.120 a while. That's not occurred to me. 2:41:16.360 --> 2:41:19.080 Yeah, it's not does not really go down. So he's 2:41:19.120 --> 2:41:20.520 like trying to figure out what the fuck's going on. 2:41:20.640 --> 2:41:22.800 I'm like, what's happening, And he's like he's making a note, 2:41:22.800 --> 2:41:25.080 he's documenting stuff is there, and they're talking about like 2:41:25.160 --> 2:41:27.920 weapons packages, like these are the kind of weapons. This 2:41:27.959 --> 2:41:29.879 is where they're striking. And then as the strike's going 2:41:29.920 --> 2:41:33.199 they're being like this guy headed into his girlfriend's house, 2:41:33.200 --> 2:41:35.880 we're hitting it. The house blew up, he's dead. 2:41:36.320 --> 2:41:36.480 Right. 2:41:36.600 --> 2:41:39.560 Particular exchange was very funny because the way he phrased, 2:41:39.600 --> 2:41:43.440 it was like it completely baffled jd Vance. Yes, let 2:41:43.480 --> 2:41:45.680 me pull this up because it was it was pretty funny. 2:41:45.840 --> 2:41:46.920 No please please? 2:41:47.400 --> 2:41:51.959 Uh. Michael Waltz VP full Stop building collapsed, full Stop 2:41:52.120 --> 2:41:56.440 had multiple positive id full Stop, Pete Carilla the ic 2:41:56.879 --> 2:42:02.680 amazing job. Jd Vance replies, what Michael Waltz typing too fast? 2:42:02.760 --> 2:42:06.720 Full stop? The first target, M Dash that top missile guy, 2:42:07.000 --> 2:42:09.440 M Dash. We have positive idea of him walking into 2:42:09.440 --> 2:42:12.400 his girlfriend's building and now it's collapsed. And then jad 2:42:12.440 --> 2:42:15.680 Ebbonds replies, excellent. At this point, Michael Waltz responds with 2:42:15.720 --> 2:42:19.680 the fifth emoji American flag emoji, flame emoji. 2:42:21.040 --> 2:42:24.840 Yeah, so it's great. And once it becomes very clear 2:42:24.879 --> 2:42:27.920 what's happening number one, rather than stay in the group, 2:42:28.240 --> 2:42:30.120 see if maybe he could get invited to other groups, 2:42:30.200 --> 2:42:31.720 just kind of like keep track of what was going 2:42:31.760 --> 2:42:35.480 on again being a guy who's like primary concern and 2:42:35.520 --> 2:42:38.760 I really do think Goldberg's primary concern here was the 2:42:38.800 --> 2:42:40.959 security of US soldiers, like. 2:42:40.959 --> 2:42:43.119 The national security of the United States. 2:42:43.160 --> 2:42:46.640 Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, as opposed to like is any 2:42:46.640 --> 2:42:49.280 of this legal? Are they like what like his is 2:42:49.320 --> 2:42:52.160 just like these people are not being secure like with 2:42:53.360 --> 2:42:55.200 I mean like this this could if the wrong person 2:42:55.280 --> 2:42:56.720 got invited in to a group like this, it could 2:42:56.760 --> 2:42:59.440 potentially endanger the lives of airmen and stuff. That's on 2:42:59.480 --> 2:43:02.080 my point concerned with all this, right, but that is 2:43:02.160 --> 2:43:05.039 his you know. And so he hops out of the group. 2:43:05.080 --> 2:43:07.920 He leaves, and he puts out this article and he 2:43:08.040 --> 2:43:11.640 redacts most other than the what's happened, which is a 2:43:11.680 --> 2:43:14.320 story in and of itself. He like goes out of 2:43:14.320 --> 2:43:17.440 his way, like there's people who are like in intelligence 2:43:17.480 --> 2:43:19.280 that are in this that he has their names, and 2:43:19.320 --> 2:43:22.160 he's like, I am not naming them because they're serving 2:43:22.200 --> 2:43:25.840 intelligence officers, and that's a no no. He doesn't like 2:43:26.440 --> 2:43:29.400 specifically give up other than that this is happening anything 2:43:29.440 --> 2:43:34.360 that's like particularly dangerous, right, But this is the kind 2:43:34.440 --> 2:43:36.440 of thing as soon as it comes out, obviously it's 2:43:36.600 --> 2:43:38.840 it's a fewer and it's unlike most of the time 2:43:38.879 --> 2:43:41.520 when everybody gets like pissed, it seems to like it 2:43:41.600 --> 2:43:43.800 might have some legs because it's just such a what 2:43:43.959 --> 2:43:45.600 the bach moment, right. 2:43:45.640 --> 2:43:48.120 And it's so contrary to like so much of the 2:43:48.160 --> 2:43:51.440 messaging coming from from the Trump administration regarding you know, 2:43:51.480 --> 2:43:55.880 like digital security. Hillary's emails prosecuting individual soldiers for any 2:43:56.040 --> 2:43:58.920 like like you know, losing a night vision goggle, right, 2:43:58.959 --> 2:44:03.320 and it's kind of a leaking information. How this administration 2:44:03.400 --> 2:44:06.440 is gonna going to crack down and all informations, you 2:44:06.480 --> 2:44:07.360 know that sort of stuff. 2:44:07.400 --> 2:44:09.800 At one point, Excess says we are clear for op SEC, 2:44:09.840 --> 2:44:11.000 which I thought was pretty funny. 2:44:11.080 --> 2:44:14.160 The funniest message in this signal group is that we're 2:44:14.200 --> 2:44:16.800 all good on OPSEC. Yeah, that he says in a 2:44:16.840 --> 2:44:18.360 group chat with Internal Life. 2:44:18.640 --> 2:44:18.879 Yeah. 2:44:19.160 --> 2:44:23.440 Yeah, it's super funny. Everything that's happening here is very funny. 2:44:23.959 --> 2:44:26.199 I basically want to move on to, like what's what's 2:44:26.240 --> 2:44:28.400 going to happen next, which is they are going to 2:44:28.400 --> 2:44:30.920 try to nuke Jeffrey Goldberg, Like they're going to try 2:44:30.959 --> 2:44:34.320 to send him to a prison, if not a literal 2:44:34.640 --> 2:44:38.200 like El Salvadorian work camp, right, like that that is 2:44:38.280 --> 2:44:39.760 going to be their next goal here. 2:44:40.080 --> 2:44:42.480 He embarrassed these people, like yes to an extent that 2:44:42.520 --> 2:44:45.040 it's I mean, anyone in uniform would have been cult 2:44:45.080 --> 2:44:46.800 martialed for this kind of security fuck up. 2:44:46.840 --> 2:44:50.039 Oh yeah, yeah, I mean in times of war in 2:44:50.080 --> 2:44:51.960 the past, if like the version of this had happened 2:44:51.959 --> 2:44:55.120 in World War Two. They would have just executed whatever 2:44:55.200 --> 2:44:56.400 soldier did this, Like. 2:44:56.400 --> 2:44:58.000 Yeah, you don't have to be a spy if you're 2:44:58.160 --> 2:45:00.840 incompetent enough to just bumble into shiit, it's the same result. 2:45:01.240 --> 2:45:03.480 I did want to address really quickly, like a couple 2:45:03.520 --> 2:45:05.520 of things. One, I saw this USA Today article that 2:45:05.600 --> 2:45:07.560 was like, oh, it's so relatable that they made this 2:45:07.680 --> 2:45:10.879 mistake of adding someone to the group chat. That was 2:45:10.920 --> 2:45:14.199 not the mistake. The mistake was coordinating things that should 2:45:14.200 --> 2:45:16.840 be classified. Things it should be quote unquote high side 2:45:17.480 --> 2:45:20.760 on personal devices using signal as opposed to a state 2:45:20.800 --> 2:45:24.040 department or government issued device which doesn't have your personal 2:45:24.080 --> 2:45:27.400 contacts to avoid all this, like a device which is 2:45:27.400 --> 2:45:30.720 not hackable advice which has not been exposed to QR codes, 2:45:30.720 --> 2:45:31.359 for example. 2:45:31.520 --> 2:45:33.640 Yeah, to make sure that in your context, there's not 2:45:33.640 --> 2:45:36.119 two guys named JG. 2:45:36.400 --> 2:45:36.959 Yeah. 2:45:36.760 --> 2:45:39.200 Yeah, so you might add the wrong JG to your 2:45:39.360 --> 2:45:40.520 Yemen bombing chat. 2:45:40.879 --> 2:45:43.360 Haven't we all added the wrong person to a group chat? 2:45:43.440 --> 2:45:45.760 And it's like, I mean, yeah, but I've never like 2:45:45.959 --> 2:45:46.879 bombed Yemen. 2:45:47.080 --> 2:45:52.120 Yeah yeah, yeah, Yeah, it's not the same thing. It's 2:45:52.120 --> 2:45:53.720 not the same thing as a birthday party. 2:45:53.879 --> 2:45:56.760 Yeah, like I have two friends named John and I 2:45:56.800 --> 2:45:59.240 added the wrong one to a group about like planning 2:45:59.320 --> 2:46:03.840 a mutual friend birthday party. But like again minimal damage. 2:46:03.959 --> 2:46:06.600 Yeah yeah, no no service. People's lives are put at risk. 2:46:06.680 --> 2:46:07.960 I did also want to point out this. 2:46:08.280 --> 2:46:11.360 At one point, Waltz says on Michael Walls, who's a 2:46:11.520 --> 2:46:14.800 national security advisor. Yeah not not not the other one. Yeah, 2:46:15.160 --> 2:46:16.840 that would be pretty funny. They had him as well. 2:46:17.280 --> 2:46:18.200 He was just in there. 2:46:18.560 --> 2:46:22.880 Yeah, it seems the ground you'd like to shoot parent 2:46:23.720 --> 2:46:26.720 friends with JD Vans wouldn't be so. 2:46:27.800 --> 2:46:29.640 One of the things Wolf says which is bizarre is 2:46:29.640 --> 2:46:33.000 that like European navies are incapable of defeating Hoothy weapons systems. 2:46:33.040 --> 2:46:34.040 It just isn't true. 2:46:34.120 --> 2:46:38.640 Like there was a coalition of twenty different states running 2:46:38.720 --> 2:46:40.760 operations in the rest he last year. 2:46:40.680 --> 2:46:43.480 And against like France has a navy, like they've gotten 2:46:43.480 --> 2:46:46.480 a nuclear submarines they could in the world. 2:46:47.240 --> 2:46:50.800 Just like one example, HMS Diamond, which is a British ship, 2:46:51.240 --> 2:46:54.240 shot down a Hoothy missile last year. The UK also 2:46:54.600 --> 2:46:58.640 struck Houthy targets last year. Yeah, I've watched the UK 2:46:58.840 --> 2:47:03.879 carry out air strike. I've like they're very capable. Look 2:47:03.879 --> 2:47:06.160 what the rane what the Houthies have is Iranian three 2:47:06.280 --> 2:47:08.800 fifty eight to just get really nerdy for a second, right, 2:47:08.800 --> 2:47:11.040 which are not really a threat to mode fighter aircraft. 2:47:11.040 --> 2:47:14.039 It is like a loitering munition. Maybe a drone, yeah, 2:47:14.200 --> 2:47:19.720 but no no aircraft, not a manned or personed aircraft. 2:47:20.160 --> 2:47:22.560 The primary point of like how the Hoothies are conducting 2:47:22.560 --> 2:47:24.240 their strikes is not We're going to knock all of 2:47:24.280 --> 2:47:26.720 these ships out of the sea. It's it will It 2:47:26.760 --> 2:47:31.039 will create an unsustainable insurance situation for a lot of merchants. 2:47:31.080 --> 2:47:33.760 If there's just always kind of missiles. Even if we 2:47:33.800 --> 2:47:37.080 never really or almost never hit anybody, that doesn't really matter. 2:47:37.480 --> 2:47:39.240 You got to deal with the insurance thing. 2:47:39.959 --> 2:47:43.200 Yeah, they're going to make that much more expensive and 2:47:43.200 --> 2:47:46.560 that that particular part of global trade much more difficult 2:47:46.600 --> 2:47:50.000 to conduct. So far, the Trump administration has doubled down 2:47:50.000 --> 2:47:53.400 in its response. This is pretty funny. Karen Levitt on 2:47:53.520 --> 2:47:56.359 Twitter X, I guess called Goldberg. 2:47:56.400 --> 2:47:59.119 She's the White House Press secretary. I believe press. That's correct? 2:47:59.200 --> 2:48:01.920 Yeah, what has press? Sex actually called Goldberg a quote 2:48:01.920 --> 2:48:04.480 Trump hater and also claimed the story was a quote 2:48:04.480 --> 2:48:08.320 hoax and a quote sensationalist spin. They are also right 2:48:08.360 --> 2:48:12.760 now claiming that quote war plans and quote attack plans 2:48:13.080 --> 2:48:15.680 are different things. The information they leaked to was too 2:48:15.720 --> 2:48:19.640 specific to constitute a war plan. Both of these things 2:48:19.680 --> 2:48:22.440 are kind of ludicrous claims, right, Very clearly, this is 2:48:22.440 --> 2:48:25.280 stuff that should be classified, very clearly. It's stuff that 2:48:25.320 --> 2:48:27.400 put those people's lives at risk in the event that 2:48:27.480 --> 2:48:29.760 the whoth He's had any means to respond to like 2:48:29.920 --> 2:48:33.360 F eighteen's, which I don't think they do really now. 2:48:34.040 --> 2:48:37.160 But you know, Iran, who absolutely is a state backer 2:48:37.480 --> 2:48:39.840 of the who he's, does have the ability, at least 2:48:39.840 --> 2:48:42.440 in theory. They they kind of haven't. They've kind of 2:48:42.600 --> 2:48:44.600 shown their ass a bit in the last year or 2:48:44.640 --> 2:48:46.400 two with Israeli strikes in a run. 2:48:46.520 --> 2:48:49.840 Yeah, it's not the ability to like easily interdict these 2:48:49.920 --> 2:48:52.520 kinds of strikes, but certainly the ability to and more 2:48:52.520 --> 2:48:55.000 importantly kind of the ability to survive them, to like 2:48:55.080 --> 2:48:56.400 mitigate the damage that they can do. 2:48:56.480 --> 2:48:58.720 Sure, sure to go underground or go somewhere else, and 2:48:58.720 --> 2:49:01.199 like those planes are vulnerable when at like certain points 2:49:01.240 --> 2:49:03.320 in their trajectory, I think, so, you know, Yeah, it's 2:49:03.360 --> 2:49:07.040 Germany very poor to broad to broadcast exactly what you're doing, when, 2:49:07.080 --> 2:49:07.640 where and how. 2:49:07.879 --> 2:49:11.040 It's kind of just a basic of like military stuff 2:49:11.080 --> 2:49:13.800 that you really don't want people to know exactly when 2:49:13.879 --> 2:49:15.520 you're sending dudes in to do what. 2:49:16.120 --> 2:49:16.360 Yeah. 2:49:16.480 --> 2:49:20.680 Yeah, there was a very funny meme going around which 2:49:20.920 --> 2:49:23.400 basically had like imagined if the same discussion had been 2:49:23.440 --> 2:49:27.080 had about D Day in nineteen forty four, and yeah, 2:49:27.080 --> 2:49:28.359 that wouldn't have gone so well. 2:49:28.360 --> 2:49:30.680 They had brought a lot of great posts. I'm looking 2:49:30.680 --> 2:49:34.480 at one by Katie and Autopolis on Twitter right now. 2:49:34.640 --> 2:49:37.200 Having read through the full hoothy PC small group logs, 2:49:37.200 --> 2:49:39.640 I've come to the sad realization that I'm the Jdvans 2:49:39.680 --> 2:49:43.640 of my group chats, overly emotional, slightly unprofessional, confused by 2:49:43.640 --> 2:49:45.920 what everyone else is saying because I won't scroll up, 2:49:46.160 --> 2:49:48.400 continually derails plans with later rejections. 2:49:48.440 --> 2:49:51.520 So good, it's still good. 2:49:51.959 --> 2:49:53.800 It is that is really funny. 2:49:54.320 --> 2:49:55.120 That is brutal. 2:49:55.280 --> 2:49:59.560 Yeah, it is interesting to see their dynamics. It's interesting 2:49:59.560 --> 2:50:02.480 to see of Stephen Miller seemed to have the decisive 2:50:02.520 --> 2:50:05.240 word on like let's go ahead with Alice Miller. Oh yeah, 2:50:05.280 --> 2:50:06.840 speaking directly for the president. 2:50:07.160 --> 2:50:09.720 That's what's interesting because no one ever says the president 2:50:09.760 --> 2:50:11.840 has approved this, the president has said do this, Like 2:50:11.879 --> 2:50:14.360 Miller says something along the lines of like, we're going 2:50:14.400 --> 2:50:16.560 forward with this, or I've been told we're going forward 2:50:16.640 --> 2:50:20.040 with this, which is again not in terms of like 2:50:20.080 --> 2:50:22.640 it's a very Hitler way of doing things, right, yea, right, 2:50:22.680 --> 2:50:24.440 Like there's this I talk about this in the show. 2:50:24.440 --> 2:50:27.760 There's this decades long debate about like Hitler literally order 2:50:27.800 --> 2:50:30.119 the Holocaust or did he just kind of like keep 2:50:30.200 --> 2:50:32.480 making it clear to people that if they kept moving 2:50:32.520 --> 2:50:35.199 in a more holocausty direction that would. 2:50:34.920 --> 2:50:38.160 Like endear them to him. 2:50:36.920 --> 2:50:41.280 Aspects of both are true, but like, yeah, this is 2:50:41.280 --> 2:50:43.720 definitely kind of example of that ladder thing where Trump 2:50:43.760 --> 2:50:46.600 is probably like, yeah, somebody should probably fuck up those hoothies, 2:50:46.760 --> 2:50:49.879 and then Steven Miller goes like, yeah, Trump said, you know, 2:50:49.920 --> 2:50:52.640 we're good, keep moving forward. But he's also Miller's not dumb. 2:50:52.640 --> 2:50:54.280 He's not going to say Trump he's been doing this. 2:50:54.320 --> 2:50:55.359 He's gonna say he's. 2:50:55.160 --> 2:50:57.680 Been delegating so much more than his first term, to 2:50:57.720 --> 2:51:00.920 the point where his presidency is just rejecting a certain 2:51:01.040 --> 2:51:04.119 vibe that then other people have to carry out all 2:51:04.120 --> 2:51:05.120 of the details for it. 2:51:05.200 --> 2:51:08.400 Yeah, this is very similar to the hit the regimes. 2:51:08.520 --> 2:51:08.840 Yeah. 2:51:08.920 --> 2:51:11.040 Yeah, there is a term for this at the time, 2:51:11.080 --> 2:51:13.760 in the third Reck, it's called working towards the fuery Okay, right, 2:51:13.800 --> 2:51:16.720 where you're not going to get direct guidelines, you're supposed 2:51:16.760 --> 2:51:18.840 to figure out what he wants and move closer to it. 2:51:19.040 --> 2:51:22.240 Yeah, no exactly. Yeah, No, that's kind of been his 2:51:22.720 --> 2:51:25.200 new governing style. It's a lot smarter in terms of 2:51:25.280 --> 2:51:28.440 like just like you know, getting documents to sign and 2:51:28.480 --> 2:51:32.440 then projects certain certain like slogans or vibes that then 2:51:32.520 --> 2:51:34.240 everyone who works under him, which is at this point 2:51:34.240 --> 2:51:36.879 it's maybe like roughly twoted people tops have to all 2:51:37.000 --> 2:51:40.160 like figure out to like how to enact this thing 2:51:40.200 --> 2:51:41.320 that they think he wants. 2:51:42.520 --> 2:51:45.000 Yeah, like gave it to the extent that he himself 2:51:45.120 --> 2:51:48.039 was saying he didn't sign the evocation of the Alien 2:51:48.160 --> 2:51:50.600 Enemies at that Rubio did. Yeah, his signatures on it 2:51:50.640 --> 2:51:53.039 in the federal record. But clearly it's kind of a 2:51:53.160 --> 2:51:55.640 Rubio or it seems from that that it's a Rubio 2:51:55.680 --> 2:51:58.880 concoction that he just greenlit. Just a quote from Miller 2:51:58.920 --> 2:52:00.560 in case you know, it's want of exactly what he said, 2:52:00.959 --> 2:52:03.520 as I heard it. The presume was clear colon green light, 2:52:03.680 --> 2:52:06.360 but we soon make clear to Egypt and Europe what 2:52:06.440 --> 2:52:10.000 we expect in return. So yeah, it's he never he 2:52:10.080 --> 2:52:13.680 never specifically says the President has okayed this. But yeah, 2:52:13.720 --> 2:52:18.039 that's obviously people in Europe really pissed. I've seen some 2:52:18.120 --> 2:52:20.960 statements from government ministers in the United Kingdom like the 2:52:21.800 --> 2:52:24.560 sort of maligning of Europe and its military powers is 2:52:24.600 --> 2:52:26.879 obviously going to piss those people off. Talking of pissing 2:52:26.879 --> 2:52:29.000 people off, should we pivot to advertisements? 2:52:29.000 --> 2:52:31.400 We should, which does not piss me off. It makes 2:52:31.400 --> 2:52:33.280 me really happy to consume. 2:52:34.440 --> 2:52:37.720 Garrison personally consumes all the products and services that support 2:52:37.720 --> 2:52:38.000 this show. 2:52:38.040 --> 2:52:38.959 Yeah, that's definitely not true. 2:52:39.480 --> 2:52:42.959 It's the only thing that Garrison concerns, which is why 2:52:43.000 --> 2:52:43.959 they have poleegra. 2:52:44.120 --> 2:52:46.160 I don't know what that is, but sure, here's here's 2:52:46.200 --> 2:53:00.280 the ads, all right, we are so that. 2:53:01.000 --> 2:53:03.800 H Yeah, what's rending my additions? 2:53:04.520 --> 2:53:11.480 James, Yeah, okay, I'll just start so very amusingly is 2:53:11.480 --> 2:53:15.119 that's probably concerningly for him. Judge Boseberg, the same person 2:53:15.560 --> 2:53:19.440 who issued attentive restraining order against the Trump administration for 2:53:19.560 --> 2:53:22.920 the rendition of people to Venezuela has also been assigned 2:53:23.040 --> 2:53:27.480 signal lawsuit American Obsit versus HeiG Seth. So that guy 2:53:27.680 --> 2:53:29.520 that the one who Trump already called for his impeachment 2:53:29.600 --> 2:53:32.800 right has another crucial case in front of him. What 2:53:32.840 --> 2:53:37.040 the Trump administration has done in the court case pertaining 2:53:37.120 --> 2:53:40.279 to the rendition of people to El Salvador is invoked 2:53:40.280 --> 2:53:43.600 the state secrets privilege in court. Very ironic or very 2:53:43.680 --> 2:53:46.039 very ironic. They're talking about state secrets now, having just 2:53:46.240 --> 2:53:48.600 added Jeff Goldberg to the group chat. But that's what 2:53:48.640 --> 2:53:50.879 they have done. You can go back last week to 2:53:50.959 --> 2:53:53.680 understand sort of a bit more about where that's coming from. 2:53:54.200 --> 2:53:55.560 If you didn't listen to last week. 2:53:55.480 --> 2:53:55.840 Yeah we did. 2:53:55.920 --> 2:53:57.560 We did a whole episode on it last week. 2:53:58.080 --> 2:54:01.880 It's also continuing to claim that it didn't quote unquote 2:54:01.920 --> 2:54:05.080 remove migrants after the tentative restraining order was issued because 2:54:05.080 --> 2:54:07.959 they'd already been removed. The removal happened when they were 2:54:08.000 --> 2:54:11.000 loaded onto the plane. Is this argument concurrectly with this 2:54:11.040 --> 2:54:13.800 as a panel hearing? So that's a panel of three 2:54:13.920 --> 2:54:17.680 judges right which the government is appealing the attentive restraining order. 2:54:17.920 --> 2:54:21.360 During this hearing, quote Judge Patricia Millet said, quote the 2:54:21.440 --> 2:54:25.240 Nazis received better treatment under their Alien Enemies Act than 2:54:25.560 --> 2:54:28.720 these Venezuelan migrants, which is true. The Nazis had hearings 2:54:28.720 --> 2:54:30.720 in the nineteen thirties and they didn't just get loaded 2:54:30.720 --> 2:54:34.000 onto plane in the central work camp. Not a great reflection. 2:54:34.080 --> 2:54:36.680 And where we're at. The Trump administration is trying to 2:54:36.760 --> 2:54:40.400 challenge the jurisdiction of Bosberg, saying that they should have 2:54:40.400 --> 2:54:43.960 filed the same claim in Texas. Meanwhile, then, as whalen 2:54:44.040 --> 2:54:48.320 governments are filing a colegal claim in El Salvador to 2:54:48.320 --> 2:54:51.760 deliberate their citizens from SECOD. It's worth noting, of course, 2:54:51.760 --> 2:54:53.360 that these people, some of them, have been tortured by 2:54:53.400 --> 2:54:57.640 the Venezuelan government right and chose to flee at no 2:54:57.680 --> 2:55:00.000 small risk to their lives. Like if people have an 2:55:00.040 --> 2:55:01.560 listen to some of our older stuff, like I've been 2:55:01.560 --> 2:55:04.000 to the Darien Gap, which is the way that the 2:55:04.120 --> 2:55:07.280 vast majority of Venezuelan migrants come. You can listen to 2:55:07.280 --> 2:55:08.959 my episodes about that if you will know more about 2:55:08.959 --> 2:55:12.280 why people are leaving Venezuela. We have a little more 2:55:12.400 --> 2:55:14.959 information on some of the people detained. One of them 2:55:15.040 --> 2:55:18.560 is a makeup artist. He's a gay man who was 2:55:18.600 --> 2:55:22.640 beaten by guards as a US photojournalist. Watch another one 2:55:22.680 --> 2:55:26.640 that Miami Herald is reporting had been granted legal refugee status, 2:55:27.200 --> 2:55:31.160 So it seems that they sort of randomly grabbed tattooed Venezuelan's. 2:55:31.280 --> 2:55:34.880 Some of these people have been through background checks already, 2:55:34.959 --> 2:55:37.640 right at which they will have disclosed their tattoos. That's 2:55:37.680 --> 2:55:39.840 one of the things that they'll be asked about, and 2:55:39.840 --> 2:55:42.480 they would have disclosed those. So whether they control eft 2:55:42.520 --> 2:55:45.160 IT or quite how they came across these people, it's 2:55:45.160 --> 2:55:47.800 still a little bit unclear. A couple of other things 2:55:47.840 --> 2:55:50.720 regarding to immigration enforcement this week that have come across 2:55:50.840 --> 2:55:53.959 my radar but probably don't marrit a whole episode. It's 2:55:54.000 --> 2:55:56.840 been reported that the IRS is close to an agreement 2:55:56.920 --> 2:55:59.680 to hand over the tax records of undocumented people it's 2:55:59.720 --> 2:56:02.120 claimed for decades. If it won't do this, this is 2:56:02.160 --> 2:56:05.400 why most undocumented people pay taxes, right. 2:56:05.280 --> 2:56:07.040 Yeah, which is something that the conservatives just like you 2:56:07.120 --> 2:56:10.000 don't believe, Yes, the like all these undocumented immigrants are 2:56:10.040 --> 2:56:12.400 aren't paying taxes like the rest of us, Like, no, 2:56:12.520 --> 2:56:13.160 actually they are. 2:56:13.520 --> 2:56:16.080 What they're not doing is receiving benefits from those taxes. 2:56:16.200 --> 2:56:19.240 Yeah, and yes, and this is a great way to 2:56:19.280 --> 2:56:22.480 have people want to pay less taxes if they're gonna 2:56:22.640 --> 2:56:26.600 get their information sent over to like the Gestapo, Like. 2:56:26.640 --> 2:56:27.480 Yeah, exactly. 2:56:27.560 --> 2:56:27.760 Yeah. 2:56:28.400 --> 2:56:30.440 The whole point was to not provide a distance. This 2:56:30.480 --> 2:56:33.960 is similar to why California gives driver's licenses to undocumented 2:56:33.959 --> 2:56:36.760 people and allows it to ensure vehicles, right, because you 2:56:36.800 --> 2:56:39.360 don't want to provide a disincentive to have a driver's license, 2:56:39.400 --> 2:56:41.439 you don't want to provide a disincentive to have insurance. 2:56:41.760 --> 2:56:44.320 We have now provided a disincentive to pay your taxes 2:56:44.360 --> 2:56:48.240 for undocumented people. So yeah, that will have consequences, and 2:56:48.280 --> 2:56:51.320 it will have consequences, especially in industries right like agriculture 2:56:51.320 --> 2:56:53.120 and construction and my large numbers of people tend to 2:56:53.120 --> 2:56:58.520 be undocumented. Talking of undocumented migration, the COMMA secretary Howard 2:56:58.600 --> 2:57:02.160 Lutnik reports it. He said it on the All In podcast. 2:57:02.440 --> 2:57:05.680 He has claimed to have already sold one thousand gold cards. 2:57:06.320 --> 2:57:08.680 So gold cards. If you didn't listen to our previous 2:57:08.680 --> 2:57:09.720 appoint that is Oh. 2:57:09.600 --> 2:57:11.199 I feel like I thought I'm getting dizzy. 2:57:11.320 --> 2:57:14.440 I'm just like, yeah, I am a ill. 2:57:14.720 --> 2:57:14.959 Yeah. 2:57:15.040 --> 2:57:18.440 Yeah. There is no process for applying for receiving a 2:57:18.440 --> 2:57:21.680 gold card yet, so it's extremely unclear what this means 2:57:21.680 --> 2:57:22.840 in immigration law terms. 2:57:22.840 --> 2:57:26.760 So he just got like a thousand texts from millionaires 2:57:26.800 --> 2:57:29.320 being like, yeah, I'll buy one maybe, Like yeah. 2:57:29.120 --> 2:57:32.439 Well multimillionaires five million each, right, Like so yeah, apparently 2:57:32.959 --> 2:57:36.160 not quite clear, Like and like he claims he sold them, 2:57:36.160 --> 2:57:38.160 Like is he going around shopping these around? Is this 2:57:38.200 --> 2:57:41.120 how they're going to replace a tax revenue from undocumented people? Like, 2:57:41.240 --> 2:57:43.600 oh my god, no one knows, no, no one knows 2:57:43.640 --> 2:57:48.320 what this means. Who do you pay? Like very unclear. 2:57:48.520 --> 2:57:52.879 So yeah, that's great. Uh, that that is that it's 2:57:52.879 --> 2:57:56.960 the current situation with immigration. I also wanted to add 2:57:57.400 --> 2:57:59.240 at least three people who were aware of died in 2:57:59.280 --> 2:58:01.480 San Diego count on the fourteenth of March in a 2:58:01.560 --> 2:58:05.600 storm while crossing the border. One young woman who survived 2:58:05.879 --> 2:58:09.080 was found next to the remains of her father, who 2:58:09.120 --> 2:58:13.080 died of exposure in a winter storm out here. So yeah, 2:58:13.280 --> 2:58:16.440 the border continues to be doing violence to some of 2:58:16.440 --> 2:58:18.840 the most marginalized people alive, which is great. 2:58:19.320 --> 2:58:23.720 We should pop in here. A story just dropped Michael Waltz, 2:58:24.160 --> 2:58:27.840 the National Security advisor who invited Jeffrey to that group 2:58:27.920 --> 2:58:31.160 chat journalists have found his public Venmo. 2:58:32.040 --> 2:58:35.119 Every time with the away Venmo. 2:58:35.200 --> 2:58:41.680 Quote unquote, it's full of journalists. I'm just gonna read 2:58:41.720 --> 2:58:44.160 a quote from an article on Prospect dot org. 2:58:44.600 --> 2:58:45.120 Yeah please. 2:58:45.360 --> 2:58:48.400 Unsurprisingly, Fox News holds the highest headcount for reporters in 2:58:48.440 --> 2:58:51.040 Mike Waltz's phone. Griff Jenkins, who's Fox dot com bio 2:58:51.120 --> 2:58:54.480 listen as a Washington based national correspondent for Fox, is 2:58:54.560 --> 2:58:56.760 joined on the list by Brian Kilmead, co host of 2:58:56.800 --> 2:58:59.720 Fox and Friends. Porter Berry, president and editor of Fox Digital, 2:58:59.720 --> 2:59:02.240 also made the gut But what right wing reporters are 2:59:02.240 --> 2:59:05.080 not the only ones represented in Waltz's Benmo list, which 2:59:05.120 --> 2:59:08.520 appears to be less than clean on obsec as Secretary 2:59:08.560 --> 2:59:12.080 of Defense. Hegseth roat Leland Vittert, a national correspondent for 2:59:12.120 --> 2:59:14.800 News Nation, is also listed on the digital account, as 2:59:14.840 --> 2:59:17.880 is Breonna Keeler, an American journalist who currently serves as 2:59:17.879 --> 2:59:20.720 co anchor of the afternoon edition of CNN News Central. 2:59:21.040 --> 2:59:24.080 Lauren Pikeoff, an executive producer at MSNBC, is also in 2:59:24.120 --> 2:59:27.760 Walls's contacts. Earlier this year, Trump tweeted about the network Wow. 2:59:27.840 --> 2:59:30.720 Rachel Maddow has horrible ratings. She'll be off the air soon. 2:59:31.240 --> 2:59:34.040 But amidst the broadcasters, producers, and talking heads, one name 2:59:34.080 --> 2:59:37.119 stands out from the crowd. Judith Miller, who was summarily 2:59:37.160 --> 2:59:39.160 fired from The New York Times after it was revealed 2:59:39.160 --> 2:59:41.960 that her reporting on the Iraq war was categorically false 2:59:41.959 --> 2:59:45.000 and obtained almost verbatim from Vice President Dick Cheney. Her 2:59:45.000 --> 2:59:47.240 dismissal was the price paid for cozying up too close 2:59:47.280 --> 2:59:51.600 to an administration set on war. It's just like, Okay, 2:59:52.360 --> 2:59:55.400 we don't check any of this, we haven't locked anything down. 2:59:55.480 --> 2:59:58.000 Good having your public venmo itself is crazy. 2:59:58.280 --> 2:59:59.240 The fact that. 2:59:59.040 --> 3:00:01.680 He's like the fact that he's like getting like dinner 3:00:01.680 --> 3:00:04.080 with journalists to be like I'll send you, I'll send 3:00:04.080 --> 3:00:06.680 you a venmo requests for this, for this sushi. 3:00:07.959 --> 3:00:11.080 Oh man, they've downloaded his entire friends list and you 3:00:11.080 --> 3:00:11.800 can just scroll. 3:00:11.920 --> 3:00:13.400 Yeah, I know you can see everybody. 3:00:13.879 --> 3:00:16.240 Oh my god, He's had to get like a fifteen 3:00:16.320 --> 3:00:20.160 dollars venmo requests from Bryan killmead for getting drinks in 3:00:20.240 --> 3:00:21.600 a bar, like what are we doing? 3:00:21.920 --> 3:00:23.600 Oh? What are we doing? 3:00:24.160 --> 3:00:24.400 Yeah? 3:00:24.480 --> 3:00:26.879 Also, yeah, how well these people make. 3:00:26.920 --> 3:00:28.800 Hundreds of thousands if not millions two dollars. 3:00:28.840 --> 3:00:30.360 You make so much money bucks. 3:00:30.440 --> 3:00:32.519 Yeah, yeah, the bat it's just one drink. 3:00:32.280 --> 3:00:35.120 In DC's so funny. Oh my god. 3:00:36.040 --> 3:00:39.440 Now I think it's time, folks, that we take a 3:00:39.520 --> 3:00:44.080 little bit of a detour and talk about tariffs. 3:00:50.320 --> 3:00:52.200 Rocky Jaspar. 3:00:53.160 --> 3:00:56.640 Lock Locking. 3:00:58.000 --> 3:01:02.440 Cking Jasp, Oh my god, I love playing that song. 3:01:02.520 --> 3:01:04.920 I love playing that song. We don't actually have anything 3:01:04.959 --> 3:01:07.840 to say about tariffs. MIA's not here. I will note 3:01:07.840 --> 3:01:10.360 there's a graph going around about the potential cost of 3:01:10.480 --> 3:01:13.760 Guinness under Trump's tax plan, which is usually around seven 3:01:13.840 --> 3:01:16.480 dollars per pint in the US and will now be 3:01:16.640 --> 3:01:20.320 twenty two to twenty seven dollars after Trump's you know, 3:01:20.920 --> 3:01:22.879 new tariffs for imported alcohol. 3:01:23.000 --> 3:01:25.520 That reflects its true value because it's also. 3:01:25.440 --> 3:01:28.879 Yes, yes, absolutely, anyway, We're done. That's all I have 3:01:28.920 --> 3:01:29.840 to say on tariffs. 3:01:29.879 --> 3:01:32.760 As long as the twisted tea pricing doesn't get affected, 3:01:32.920 --> 3:01:34.360 I'll be fine. Then that's good. 3:01:35.000 --> 3:01:37.760 Good huh I comment. 3:01:39.240 --> 3:01:39.720 Now. 3:01:39.879 --> 3:01:43.600 In some more upsetting news, another student at Columbia has 3:01:43.640 --> 3:01:47.959 been forced into hiding as Ice targets her for deportation. 3:01:49.120 --> 3:01:51.959 Unsouchung is a twenty one year old permanent resident who 3:01:51.959 --> 3:01:54.360 immigrated to the United States from Korea with her family 3:01:54.360 --> 3:01:57.520 when she was seven. On March ninth, she'd received a 3:01:57.520 --> 3:02:02.560 text message from Homeland Security Investigations, reading, Hyensau, this is 3:02:02.720 --> 3:02:05.879 Audrey from the police. My job is to reach out 3:02:05.920 --> 3:02:08.520 to you and see if you have any questions about 3:02:08.640 --> 3:02:11.119 your recent arrest and the process going forward. 3:02:11.480 --> 3:02:13.080 What are you available for a phone call? 3:02:14.080 --> 3:02:17.200 So this message was allegedly in reference to being arrested, 3:02:17.240 --> 3:02:20.199 among others at a recent sit in protest at Bernard 3:02:20.200 --> 3:02:23.280 College at Columbia. She was charged and then released with 3:02:23.480 --> 3:02:28.120 misdemeanor obstruction. So after receiving that like sketchy text, right, 3:02:28.200 --> 3:02:31.400 something that you should never never respond to, You should 3:02:31.400 --> 3:02:34.680 immediately send your lawyer. But after receiving this text, Chung 3:02:34.720 --> 3:02:38.600 got an email from Columbia Public Safety reading quote, the 3:02:38.720 --> 3:02:41.080 US Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York 3:02:41.160 --> 3:02:44.400 has asked us to inform you that Homeland Security Investigation 3:02:44.520 --> 3:02:47.160 agents are seeking to make contact with you in connection 3:02:47.400 --> 3:02:51.760 with an administrative warrant for your arrest. Consistent with university's practice, 3:02:52.080 --> 3:02:54.920 we wanted to share this information and their request with you. 3:02:55.040 --> 3:02:57.520 If you are represented by counsel, it may make sense 3:02:57.520 --> 3:03:01.000 for your lawyer to speak directly with DHS now. That 3:03:01.240 --> 3:03:03.760 same day, ICE agents showed up at the home of 3:03:03.840 --> 3:03:07.480 Chunk's parents, and Chung's lawyer called quote unquote Audrey from 3:03:07.520 --> 3:03:10.000 the police, who revealed she was actually an ICE agent 3:03:10.400 --> 3:03:12.440 and stated that there was an administrative warrant for her 3:03:12.560 --> 3:03:15.400 arrest and that the State Department can revoke Miss Chung's 3:03:15.440 --> 3:03:19.720 residency status. We're going to talk more about what's happened 3:03:20.080 --> 3:03:22.160 with miss Chung after this at break. 3:03:34.120 --> 3:03:34.959 All right, we're back. 3:03:36.800 --> 3:03:40.480 So when ICE failed to locate this Columbia University student, 3:03:41.120 --> 3:03:44.480 they started to enlist the help of federal prosecutors. I'm 3:03:44.480 --> 3:03:46.760 going to quote from the New York Times who broke 3:03:46.800 --> 3:03:47.320 this story. 3:03:47.400 --> 3:03:47.800 Quote. 3:03:47.959 --> 3:03:51.160 On March tenth, Perry Carbone, a high ranking lawyer in 3:03:51.200 --> 3:03:55.160 the Federal Prosecutor's office, told miss Ahmad, miss Chung's attorney, 3:03:55.480 --> 3:03:58.800 that the Secretary of State Mark Rubio had revoked Miss 3:03:58.920 --> 3:04:02.600 Chung's visa. Miss Ahmad responded that Miss Chung was not 3:04:02.840 --> 3:04:05.640 in the country on a visa and was a permanent resident, 3:04:06.080 --> 3:04:08.959 according to the lawsuit. Miss car Bone responded that mister 3:04:09.040 --> 3:04:14.520 Rubio had quote revoked that as well unquote. So this 3:04:14.879 --> 3:04:18.440 similar to like a mamou Khali like demonstrats that like 3:04:18.480 --> 3:04:21.080 they have no idea of the of the actual residency 3:04:21.080 --> 3:04:23.360 status of the people that they are going after. They 3:04:23.360 --> 3:04:26.040 are just going after non citizens and may eventually start 3:04:26.040 --> 3:04:29.600 going after citizens too. Like they're just going after people 3:04:29.600 --> 3:04:32.320 that they assume have like the least amount of protections, 3:04:32.320 --> 3:04:34.480 whether that's a green card holder, whether that's someone on 3:04:34.520 --> 3:04:36.800 a student visa or a work visa. They don't really 3:04:37.280 --> 3:04:40.720 know going in. They're they're they're just going after people. Then, 3:04:40.760 --> 3:04:45.279 on March thirteenth, ICE searched two residences on campus with warrants, 3:04:45.320 --> 3:04:50.080 citing a statute for harboring non citizens. The Trump administration 3:04:50.200 --> 3:04:53.520 is arguing that Chung's presence in the United States hinders 3:04:53.560 --> 3:04:58.080 the administration's foreign policy agenda. One twenty one year old 3:04:58.120 --> 3:05:00.520 student who was the Vale Victorian at her eigh school 3:05:00.760 --> 3:05:04.440 is hindering their foreign policy agenda for attending a sit 3:05:04.560 --> 3:05:08.440 in protest. Her lawyers note that Chung was not, by 3:05:08.440 --> 3:05:12.400 any means like a movement leader. She was simply one 3:05:12.480 --> 3:05:15.640 of hundreds of students who joined in in nationwide protests 3:05:15.680 --> 3:05:19.160 against Israel's actions in Gaza. Her lawyer's right quote, Miss 3:05:19.240 --> 3:05:21.320 Chung has not made any public statements to the press 3:05:21.440 --> 3:05:24.959 or otherwise assumed a high profile role in these protests. 3:05:25.080 --> 3:05:27.920 She was rather one of a large group of college 3:05:27.920 --> 3:05:33.240 students raising, expressing, and discussing shared concerns. Chung herself had 3:05:33.280 --> 3:05:37.119 previously faced a university disciplinary process, which found that Chung 3:05:37.280 --> 3:05:40.880 was not in violation of any university policy. So in 3:05:40.920 --> 3:05:43.240 response to the actions of ICE and Homeland Security to 3:05:43.240 --> 3:05:46.360 try to locate and deport her, Chung went into hiding. 3:05:46.480 --> 3:05:49.039 Her whereabouts are still unknown as the time of recording, 3:05:49.320 --> 3:05:52.560 and her lawyers fouled a lawsuit to prevent her deportation, 3:05:52.760 --> 3:05:55.959 claiming that ICE actions against Chung are illegal and unconstitutional. 3:05:56.160 --> 3:05:59.200 The lawsuit reads, quote officials that the highest echalons the 3:05:59.200 --> 3:06:02.199 government are attempting to use immigration enforcement as a bludgeon 3:06:02.240 --> 3:06:05.800 to suppress speech that they dislike, including Miss Chung's speech. 3:06:06.160 --> 3:06:09.680 ICE's shocking actions against Miss Chung form part of a 3:06:09.760 --> 3:06:13.640 larger pattern of attempted US government repression of constitutionally protected 3:06:13.680 --> 3:06:16.160 protest activity and other forms of speech. 3:06:16.440 --> 3:06:16.880 Unquote. 3:06:17.640 --> 3:06:20.800 Now, this past Tuesday, a federal judge granted a temporary 3:06:20.879 --> 3:06:25.240 restraining order halting efforts from ICE to detain or relocate Chung. 3:06:25.800 --> 3:06:28.080 The judge said that there is quote nothing in the 3:06:28.160 --> 3:06:31.080 record indicating that Chung is a danger to the community 3:06:31.320 --> 3:06:35.080 or a quote unquote foreign policy risk, or that she 3:06:35.200 --> 3:06:38.960 is communicated with terrorist organizations. The judge said that there 3:06:38.959 --> 3:06:43.440 would be quote no trips to Louisiana here, referring to 3:06:43.480 --> 3:06:47.840 the movement of Khalil to ICE attention in Louisiana. A 3:06:47.920 --> 3:06:50.959 DHS statement said that ICE is going to quote investigate 3:06:51.040 --> 3:06:55.160 individuals engage in activities in support of hamas a foreign 3:06:55.280 --> 3:06:59.200 terrorist organization unquote. The statement also claimed that Chung would 3:06:59.240 --> 3:07:02.240 have an opportunity to present her case before an immigration judge, 3:07:03.040 --> 3:07:06.960 which is like contrary to incidence of ICE just deporting 3:07:07.000 --> 3:07:11.360 people before they're legally required hearings, even like in defiance 3:07:11.400 --> 3:07:15.320 of like extra court orders mandating those hearings. Like ICE 3:07:15.360 --> 3:07:18.080 is just lying here, and I think it's worth pointing out, 3:07:18.120 --> 3:07:20.800 like what types of people they are going after right now. 3:07:21.080 --> 3:07:23.400 One type of person that ICE is going after is 3:07:23.840 --> 3:07:27.360 like non citizens who were arrested at protests, regardless of 3:07:27.400 --> 3:07:29.200 what they actually did. Right This can be anything from 3:07:29.640 --> 3:07:31.800 from standing in the street to doing a sit in 3:07:31.840 --> 3:07:35.920 protest to just like being arrested on campus and removed 3:07:35.920 --> 3:07:39.160 by campus police or NYPD. Right, just just any arrest 3:07:39.240 --> 3:07:41.440 like on record that shows you at one of these 3:07:41.440 --> 3:07:44.959 protests the other in the cases like Khalil, like he 3:07:45.080 --> 3:07:48.000 was never arrested. He was the subject of a mass 3:07:48.040 --> 3:07:52.600 doxing campaign by other students at Columbia, professors and other 3:07:52.760 --> 3:07:56.400 you know, quote unquote anti Semitism organizations which target high 3:07:56.440 --> 3:08:00.120 profile activists to create like public pressure against them, and 3:08:00.360 --> 3:08:02.440 those same lists are now being used by the Trump 3:08:02.440 --> 3:08:04.520 administration to target students. 3:08:05.560 --> 3:08:09.360 Yeah, Gita had one, right, Beta. They ultra Zionist people 3:08:09.360 --> 3:08:12.440 who are going around like attempting to fucking present people 3:08:12.480 --> 3:08:14.720 with pages. I think they were one of the groups 3:08:14.720 --> 3:08:17.720 that had created like a quote unquote deportation list. So 3:08:17.760 --> 3:08:21.040 we should just mention that a tough student, Romesa oz Tuk, 3:08:21.440 --> 3:08:24.440 was essentially abducted on her way to university. 3:08:24.520 --> 3:08:24.640 Right. 3:08:24.680 --> 3:08:27.680 There's video which will link in the show notes here. 3:08:27.840 --> 3:08:30.520 Very very frightening video of her just standing on the 3:08:30.560 --> 3:08:34.080 sidewalk as first one man approaches her in like a 3:08:34.200 --> 3:08:36.840 in like a like a navy hoodie, put mask on 3:08:36.879 --> 3:08:39.400 his face, approaches her, stops her, and then as soon 3:08:39.400 --> 3:08:41.720 as they start engaging in conversation, she gets surrounded by 3:08:41.760 --> 3:08:44.280 like five other people, all wearing like what I would 3:08:44.320 --> 3:08:47.400 describe as like a gray man block essentially that they 3:08:47.440 --> 3:08:50.360 then like pull out badges and they like detain her. 3:08:50.440 --> 3:08:52.880 And it's interesting like as they approach, most of these 3:08:52.879 --> 3:08:55.680 people are unmasked, and then as soon as people realize 3:08:55.680 --> 3:08:58.720 what's happening, like like people in the neighborhood it realize 3:08:58.760 --> 3:09:01.480 what's happening, they all start pulling up like a like 3:09:01.680 --> 3:09:03.680 half faced mask like gaters gators. 3:09:03.800 --> 3:09:07.160 Yeah, yeah, they looked to me more like than anything 3:09:07.680 --> 3:09:10.039 the way prowd boys dressed a lot, and like Jorany 3:09:10.080 --> 3:09:13.320 in nineteen twenty twenty. Yeah, it's yeah, like. 3:09:12.959 --> 3:09:17.080 Like it's extremely concerning, like yes, when you start seeing 3:09:17.120 --> 3:09:20.039 at these people mass people snatching people off the street, right, 3:09:20.080 --> 3:09:22.480 She asks if she asked if she can call the cops, 3:09:22.560 --> 3:09:25.200 and they say, we are the police. It looks like 3:09:25.200 --> 3:09:27.039 her phone falls out of her hand at some point 3:09:27.320 --> 3:09:30.279 they take her bag. We know this because it seems 3:09:30.280 --> 3:09:33.600 like somebody was filming from a building just above and 3:09:33.640 --> 3:09:35.600 you can hear that people say like why are you 3:09:35.600 --> 3:09:36.840 covering your person? 3:09:36.879 --> 3:09:37.840 Saying why are you wearing masks? 3:09:37.840 --> 3:09:38.920 Why are you covering your faces. 3:09:39.000 --> 3:09:41.600 Yeah. Yeah, the guy, the guy filming is like doing 3:09:41.840 --> 3:09:43.560 about what he can, given the fact that you have 3:09:43.600 --> 3:09:46.000 to assume he had no real idea what was happening 3:09:46.120 --> 3:09:50.200 initially other than like something visibly fucked up. Like I'm 3:09:50.240 --> 3:09:52.120 glad he said the things that he said. 3:09:52.280 --> 3:09:56.200 But yeah, yeah, she's a Turkish citizen who is in 3:09:56.280 --> 3:10:01.280 the States on a student visa in Boston, Massachusetts or 3:10:01.280 --> 3:10:02.920 outside Boston, Massachusetts. 3:10:03.080 --> 3:10:06.200 Yeah, she's on a F one visa. So just a 3:10:06.200 --> 3:10:09.360 couple of dates. A few days before she was seized, 3:10:09.600 --> 3:10:12.440 she was like her name was published by Canary Mission right. 3:10:12.640 --> 3:10:16.680 Canary Mission is a Zionist group that has been doxing 3:10:17.280 --> 3:10:20.760 for Palestine or anti genocide people for several years now. 3:10:21.360 --> 3:10:24.600 She had co edited an op ed in the Tought 3:10:24.640 --> 3:10:26.400 Daily last year. It seems to be how they were 3:10:26.440 --> 3:10:28.959 able to identify her. But as Garrison said, right like, 3:10:29.000 --> 3:10:31.400 in terms of how they're picking their targets right now, 3:10:31.400 --> 3:10:35.040 it seems to be heavily tied to these vigilanti zionists, 3:10:35.320 --> 3:10:39.120 far right groups. I did see that a judge has 3:10:39.160 --> 3:10:41.600 already ruled that she shouldn't be left, she shouldn't be 3:10:41.680 --> 3:10:44.960 removed from Massachusetts without further consultation with that judge. 3:10:44.959 --> 3:10:47.000 And we don't know if she has been or not already. 3:10:47.400 --> 3:10:48.960 But this is this is continuing to happen, right, we 3:10:49.200 --> 3:10:51.120 talked about it this last week. I'm going to do 3:10:51.160 --> 3:10:54.119 a whole episode next week about this, about this issue. 3:10:54.160 --> 3:10:57.560 She is in Louisiana. Sorry, update, she has already been 3:10:57.560 --> 3:10:59.400 moved to Louisiana. Yeah, so I'm just reading a truth 3:10:59.400 --> 3:11:03.120 out piece here. Officials initially did not specify wells have 3:11:03.160 --> 3:11:05.480 been taken and Canabi it's her lawyer was unable to 3:11:05.520 --> 3:11:08.760 reach her. Later on Wednesday, Hanabe's said in a motion 3:11:08.840 --> 3:11:10.959 that she was informed by a senator's office that the 3:11:10.959 --> 3:11:12.959 student was already transferred to Louisiana. 3:11:13.040 --> 3:11:15.680 It's like in a matter of hours they worked to 3:11:15.720 --> 3:11:19.039 get her like outside of her home state, or she 3:11:19.120 --> 3:11:20.920 probably has more legal protections. 3:11:21.080 --> 3:11:23.840 Yeah, it's not something that's super uncommon. I've seen them 3:11:23.879 --> 3:11:26.400 do this with what they called lateral transfers under Title 3:11:26.440 --> 3:11:30.720 forty two, where they would move people. Under Title forty two, 3:11:30.720 --> 3:11:32.879 they can immediately return people to Mexico, right, And what 3:11:32.920 --> 3:11:35.200 they would do is is laterally transfer them along the 3:11:35.240 --> 3:11:38.560 border and return them to another location in Mexico, which 3:11:38.600 --> 3:11:41.400 obviously led to them being completely dislocated when they were 3:11:41.600 --> 3:11:42.440 dropped in Mexico. 3:11:42.959 --> 3:11:44.760 Something else that I want to note is the use 3:11:44.800 --> 3:11:48.520 of this harboring non citizens warrant. Like, one problem that 3:11:48.560 --> 3:11:50.760 ICE can run into often is that people can choose 3:11:50.800 --> 3:11:53.640 just to not answer the door. I usually likes to 3:11:53.640 --> 3:11:55.720 rely on people that have already been arrested or already 3:11:55.720 --> 3:11:57.920 detained by like police, Right, that makes it much easier 3:11:57.920 --> 3:12:01.680 for immigration officials to find people without that locating people 3:12:01.680 --> 3:12:03.840 can be a little bit harder with the use of 3:12:03.879 --> 3:12:06.840 this like harboring non citizens warrant, that shows like there's 3:12:06.840 --> 3:12:09.000 trying to create this precedent for being able to actually 3:12:09.080 --> 3:12:11.680 break into more people's homes even though you know she 3:12:11.800 --> 3:12:15.560 had a permanent resident status. This is just like in 3:12:15.640 --> 3:12:18.000 terms of the tactics being used, similar to like you 3:12:18.040 --> 3:12:20.800 know this all these like gray man block people approaching 3:12:20.840 --> 3:12:22.959 you on the street one by one. That's like a 3:12:23.000 --> 3:12:26.879 tactic to take note of. The use of this type 3:12:26.879 --> 3:12:29.879 of warrant is also something to take note of. We 3:12:29.920 --> 3:12:32.039 are already at that point where people are like are 3:12:32.080 --> 3:12:36.720 like going into hiding, right, This is like very very 3:12:36.760 --> 3:12:39.560 like dystopian ya coded stuff where you're like, you are 3:12:39.720 --> 3:12:42.080 literally as like as a twenty one year old like 3:12:42.200 --> 3:12:47.440 junior being forced to go into hiding because federal agents 3:12:47.480 --> 3:12:51.240 are after you because you sat down. Yeah, you sat 3:12:51.240 --> 3:12:54.000 down in front of a building in protest of a genocide. 3:12:54.040 --> 3:12:56.720 You're not even a movement leader, and this this type 3:12:56.760 --> 3:12:59.240 of thing shouldn't even happen to quote unquote movement leaders. 3:12:59.040 --> 3:13:02.320 Right, Yeah, if the very First Amendment protects your right 3:13:02.360 --> 3:13:03.120 to do that exactly. 3:13:03.200 --> 3:13:03.440 Yeah. 3:13:03.680 --> 3:13:06.160 But like, regardless of whether or not you're involved in 3:13:06.280 --> 3:13:09.720 the planning the organization, whether or not you're making statements depressed, 3:13:09.840 --> 3:13:12.240 whether or not you're you're you're giving speeches, if you 3:13:12.360 --> 3:13:14.600 just attend these sorts of things, you are you are 3:13:14.640 --> 3:13:19.520 a target by what is like very obviously a modern 3:13:19.600 --> 3:13:21.920 version of like gestopo like actions. 3:13:22.840 --> 3:13:23.120 Yeah. 3:13:23.360 --> 3:13:26.000 I think it's also quite revealing that she's somewhat successfully 3:13:26.000 --> 3:13:28.440 gone into hiding, right, Like it suggests that, yeah, their 3:13:28.480 --> 3:13:30.800 intelligent operation is not so advioleance that they were able 3:13:30.800 --> 3:13:31.800 to immediately find her. 3:13:32.200 --> 3:13:35.000 Well, no, because again, the resources to do stuff like 3:13:35.720 --> 3:13:38.879 trace somebody down by their shoes from like surveillance camera 3:13:38.920 --> 3:13:41.840 footage exists. We saw it used on those lawyers who 3:13:41.920 --> 3:13:45.280 let a police vehicle fire at twenty twenty. But like, 3:13:45.840 --> 3:13:49.080 there's not really much in the way a crime's going 3:13:49.120 --> 3:13:51.840 on here, and there also had there's so many of 3:13:51.840 --> 3:13:54.040 these people, Like the idea that you would you would 3:13:54.120 --> 3:13:56.000 pull all of the footage that you would need to 3:13:56.040 --> 3:13:58.400 track every one of these, it's just it's just not feasible. 3:13:58.440 --> 3:14:01.080 Yeah, and I think they're just go after someone else, 3:14:01.200 --> 3:14:03.760 right to get the headline. But I'll be following this 3:14:03.800 --> 3:14:06.800 one with interest because it's sort of it's sort of 3:14:06.840 --> 3:14:09.440 an alternative outcome to the other ones that we've seen 3:14:09.520 --> 3:14:12.840 so far, So it'll just be revelatory to see how 3:14:12.879 --> 3:14:16.800 it goes. Yeah, So if you want to contact us 3:14:16.920 --> 3:14:19.720 about any of this, maybe if you're seeing things happening 3:14:19.760 --> 3:14:22.760 on your campus, if you have anything you'd like to share, 3:14:22.840 --> 3:14:24.879 or the things that you think we've missed, you can 3:14:24.959 --> 3:14:28.400 do so. The email address is cool Zone tips at 3:14:28.560 --> 3:14:32.760 proton dot me. Proton Mail is an encrypted email service. 3:14:32.800 --> 3:14:35.800 It's only end to end encrypted like signal. If you 3:14:35.840 --> 3:14:39.360 send it from a proton mail address, don't copy any 3:14:39.400 --> 3:14:43.760 Atlantic journalists on your email, and you should be good 3:14:43.760 --> 3:14:44.120 to go. 3:14:45.720 --> 3:14:47.840 Thank you to everyone who's been sending those messages. It 3:14:47.840 --> 3:14:49.480 does take time for us to go through all of them. 3:14:49.520 --> 3:14:51.760 Not all of them will have a response, but we 3:14:51.840 --> 3:14:52.760 are reading them. 3:14:52.800 --> 3:14:53.120 Thank you. 3:14:53.640 --> 3:14:55.959 I am still working on a piece in the Lavender scare. 3:14:56.320 --> 3:14:59.920 There's a lot of stuff happening regarding you know, suppres 3:15:00.760 --> 3:15:04.520 and going after trans people in the military. This takes time, 3:15:04.920 --> 3:15:09.080 but we are working on that, slowly but surely, as 3:15:09.080 --> 3:15:12.320 well as stuff regarding ice, targeting students and what's going 3:15:12.320 --> 3:15:15.840 on in Colombia. So we appreciate that. The last thing 3:15:15.840 --> 3:15:18.680 I want to talk about is this past Monday, the 3:15:18.760 --> 3:15:22.880 IDF killed two Palestinian journalists in Gaza in separate air strikes. 3:15:23.520 --> 3:15:27.279 Mohammed Mansour, who works for Palestine Today, was killed quote 3:15:27.280 --> 3:15:29.760 in his house in southern Gaza, alongside his wife and 3:15:29.800 --> 3:15:32.920 his son without any prior warning, according to Al Jazeira. 3:15:33.400 --> 3:15:35.560 Later that day, the IDF killed a twenty three year 3:15:35.560 --> 3:15:39.840 old a Palestinian journalist, Hassam Shabbat, in a targeted airstrike 3:15:40.080 --> 3:15:43.600 while he was driving his car in northern Gaza. I 3:15:43.640 --> 3:15:47.560 want to read this statement from Hassam quote. If you're 3:15:47.600 --> 3:15:49.600 reading this, it means I have been killed, most likely 3:15:49.640 --> 3:15:53.280 targeted by the Israeli occupation forces. When all this began, 3:15:53.360 --> 3:15:55.520 I was only twenty one years old, a college student 3:15:55.560 --> 3:15:57.959 with dreams like anyone else. For the past eighteen months, 3:15:58.000 --> 3:15:59.959 I've dedicated every moment of my life to my peak. 3:16:00.360 --> 3:16:03.160 I documented the horrors in northern Gaza, minute by minute, 3:16:03.200 --> 3:16:06.080 determined to show the world the truth they tried to bury. 3:16:06.360 --> 3:16:09.800 I slept on pavements, in schools, intense anywhere I could. 3:16:10.080 --> 3:16:13.000 Each day was a battle for survival. I endured hunger 3:16:13.080 --> 3:16:16.520 for months, yet I never left my people's side. By God, 3:16:16.600 --> 3:16:19.160 I fulfilled my duty as a journalist. I risked everything 3:16:19.200 --> 3:16:22.720 to report the truth, and now I am finally at rest, 3:16:22.879 --> 3:16:26.200 something I haven't known in the past eighteen months. I 3:16:26.280 --> 3:16:29.080 did all this because I believe in the Palestinian cause. 3:16:29.400 --> 3:16:31.720 I believe this land is ours, and it has been 3:16:31.920 --> 3:16:34.400 the highest honor of my life to die defending it 3:16:34.680 --> 3:16:37.840 and serving its people. I ask you now, do not 3:16:38.040 --> 3:16:41.240 stop speaking about Gaza. Do not let the world look away, 3:16:41.560 --> 3:16:47.439 keep fighting, keep telling our stories until Palestine is free. 3:16:48.520 --> 3:16:51.720 Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 3:16:51.760 --> 3:16:53.680 from now until the heat death of the universe. 3:16:54.000 --> 3:16:54.600 It could happen. 3:16:54.640 --> 3:16:57.039 Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more 3:16:57.080 --> 3:17:00.560 podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website zon media 3:17:00.600 --> 3:17:03.400 dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 3:17:03.480 --> 3:17:07.039 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 3:17:07.080 --> 3:17:09.400 now find sources for it could happen here, listed directly 3:17:09.440 --> 3:17:11.720 in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.