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Speaker 1: All media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode, So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome. Today could happen here podcast the world

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Speaker 3: falling apart, and its mostly just about that at the minute,

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Speaker 3: but we do sometimes talk about how to put it

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Speaker 3: back together as well. Joining me today is Garrison Davis.

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Speaker 1: Hi.

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Speaker 3: Garrison, Hello, Hi, And we're on the falling apart theme,

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Speaker 3: and I think that we've been on that one quite

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Speaker 3: a lot that last few weeks, but today we are

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Speaker 3: specifically talking about the what I'm going to call the

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Speaker 3: rendition of non US nationals by the Trump administration over

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Speaker 3: the last week. The reason I'm calling it gets rendition

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Speaker 3: and not deportation is because these people aren't being sent

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Speaker 3: back to the countries they're from. They are being sent

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Speaker 3: to El Salvador. Specifically, they're being sent to a place

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Speaker 3: called second. So the Trump administration has attempted to send

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Speaker 3: three hundred people who it accuses of being members of

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Speaker 3: a foreign terrorist organization. We're going to get to how

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Speaker 3: they get there under the Alien Enemies Act to a

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Speaker 3: prison in El Salvador where they will be detained for

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Speaker 3: a year at the expense of the United States.

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Speaker 2: We're going to.

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Speaker 3: Break down exactly how we got there over the course

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Speaker 3: of this episode. So, the Trump administration has accused these

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Speaker 3: people of being members of two different gangs. The majority

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Speaker 3: of them, there's two hundred and thirty eight people are

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Speaker 3: accused of being members of trend de Ragua. Trindragua is

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Speaker 3: a Venezuelan gang that the Trump administration recently declared a

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Speaker 3: foreign terrorist organization. Another twenty three it's accusing of being

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Speaker 3: members of MS thirteen, which is a Salvadoran gang. The

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Speaker 3: Trump administration use something called the Alien Enemies Act to

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Speaker 3: remove these people. The Alien Enemies Act we actually spoke

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Speaker 3: about it in November of last year when we were

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Speaker 3: looking at provisions of US law that the Trump administration

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Speaker 3: could use for its mass deportation gender. This is when

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Speaker 3: we spoke about the Trump administration in the past has

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Speaker 3: been quite good at finding obscure provisions of the United

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Speaker 3: States law to exclude migrants. You can hear my whole

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Speaker 3: series about Title forty two on that. That's kind of

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Speaker 3: the paramount example. Right. The Alien Enemies Act is a

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Speaker 3: two hundred and twenty six year old piece of legislation.

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Speaker 3: The last time it was used was to inter Japanese

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Speaker 3: people during the Second World War. Right, that's a pretty

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Speaker 3: shameful part of United States history, and it's great that

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Speaker 3: we're going back there. So who are the enemies in

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Speaker 3: this case? Right, it's generally, like I should probably point out,

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Speaker 3: the Alien Enemy Act is intended for like the people

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Speaker 3: you were at war with. Right, So, if the United

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Speaker 3: States is at war with let's say Canada, and there

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Speaker 3: are Canadian citizens in the United States and people who

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Speaker 3: have dual citizenship with Canada, and those people that are

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Speaker 3: individuals within that group are suspected to be spies or

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Speaker 3: suspected to be like serving the interest in Canada not

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Speaker 3: the United States, that they could be excluded or detained

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Speaker 3: under the Alien Enemies Act or sent out of the country,

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Speaker 3: as it's the case here, and as we saw in

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Speaker 3: this instance, there is very little recourse to appeal. Right,

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Speaker 3: This isn't like a deportation hearing or an asylum hearing

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Speaker 3: where you have a lawyer representing you, where you have

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Speaker 3: even a hearing. Right. These people were rounded up and

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Speaker 3: booted out the country in very short order.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and like with or without due process, Like we

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Speaker 4: should not be black begging people and sending them to

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Speaker 4: the like Al Salvador Labor prison, right, Like this is

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Speaker 4: like just doing this at all, even with du process

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Speaker 4: would already be horrifying.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: The fact that they're just doing it like without even

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Speaker 4: any like court process entirely and like trying to like

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Speaker 4: bypass that just adds like another level to an already

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Speaker 4: like horrifying and you know, evil and shameful action.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's terrible. I want to define some of the

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Speaker 3: categories here. I want to start with Tendgua. Spanish understanders

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Speaker 3: will will notice the word trend meaning train. That's because

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Speaker 3: they came out of construction unions who are building trains

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Speaker 3: as part of a Venezuelan infrastructure project in Aragua, which

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Speaker 3: is part of Venezuela. There are other Venezuelan gangs. Trendliano

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Speaker 3: is the other one that springs to mind, which has

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Speaker 3: come from the same place, and that's have similar names,

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Speaker 3: but just people should understand that they're different organizations. They

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Speaker 3: also have a strong presence of Venezuelan prisons. They have

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Speaker 3: in the past been accused of doing violence on behalf

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Speaker 3: of the Venezuelan state. By twenty twenty four, I thought

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Speaker 3: to blame them for the protests after his election. People

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Speaker 3: remember that election was widely seen as fraudulent, and I

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Speaker 3: covered that in my series on the Dariant Gap. If

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Speaker 3: people want to learn more about Venezuelan politics of migration

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Speaker 3: to the United States. In twenty twenty four, Biden names

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Speaker 3: that I were a transnational criminal organization, and then Trump

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Speaker 3: named them a foreign terrorist organization. He labeled several cartels

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Speaker 3: as ftos as well. At the time, there's a lot

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Speaker 3: of speculation about why was it to allow for like

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Speaker 3: drone strikes or co operations. I think we're now seeing

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Speaker 3: that this was part of this large employ of deportation.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because like quote unquote terrorists had even less quote

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Speaker 4: unquote rights than quote unquote criminals. Yes, right, Like it's

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Speaker 4: it's like like the like the triangle of like which

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Speaker 4: which deplorable class has the least about of rights. Terrorists

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Speaker 4: are always like the ones with the least.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And we've been doing that for twenty odd years

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Speaker 3: now with Tiamo Bay and renditions to Egypt and Syria

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Speaker 3: and other places. In this case, people are being sent

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Speaker 3: to Sikot, which is this prison in El Salvador sometimes.

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Speaker 3: Can you spell that, yeah, Cecot centrocult Yeah, sea Cott. Yes.

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Speaker 3: It stands for Terrorism Confinement, Terrorism detention Center. It is

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Speaker 3: largely referred to as a super prison. Right. It was

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Speaker 3: built in El salbad Or by part of his Iron

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Speaker 3: Fist would be the way you translate. It's iron Fist

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Speaker 3: policy against gangs and against crime, and it has been

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Speaker 3: widely condemned for human rights abuses. People are crammed into

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Speaker 3: cells with more than one hundred people, but there are

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Speaker 3: fewer bunks than there are prisoners, right, so they can't

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Speaker 3: even all lie down at the same time. The bunks

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Speaker 3: don't have bedding, they're just flat like metal sheets. They're

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Speaker 3: four high, so you have to climb over other people

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Speaker 3: to sleep. For more than one hundred prisoners, there are

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Speaker 3: two open toilets. That's the only access to a bathroom

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Speaker 3: that you have. They might be allowed out for half

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Speaker 3: an hour each day. They're not allowed to communicate with

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Speaker 3: their families or the outside world. They're forced to shave

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Speaker 3: their heads and they all wear white. The lights are

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Speaker 3: left on all day. As I said that, they're provided

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Speaker 3: with no bedding, no contact with the outside world, very

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Speaker 3: little access to anything other than standing in that cell.

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Speaker 3: There's two bibles in each sat. It's the only sort

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Speaker 3: of entertainment they're allowed. It just sounds like a torture camp. Like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: this is completely inhumane, right, It's horrific. And for a

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Speaker 3: couple of years now, bu Kelly has been doing like

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Speaker 3: these media tours the of SICOT like using it to

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Speaker 3: generate content. It's very much designed to generate this image

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Speaker 3: of like, this is what will happen to quote unquote,

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Speaker 3: what will happen to you if you're a quote unquote

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Speaker 3: in a gang. It's sort of been used to promote

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Speaker 3: his image of someone who's taking an iron fist to gangs.

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Speaker 3: And as we saw when these people were sent to

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Speaker 3: us ABAD or this tendency to use I don't know

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Speaker 3: what you would call it, incarceration as a way of

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Speaker 3: making content, it was was very much the case here, right, Yeah, I'm.

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Speaker 2: Going to break for ads.

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Speaker 3: When we come back, we will be consuming content that

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Speaker 3: is people being stripped of their human rights and we

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Speaker 3: are back, Garrison, Do you want to go ahead and

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Speaker 3: play this? And so the the tweet in question, the

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Speaker 3: zet in question, it's by Naibuke, the president of Bel Salvador. Right,

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Speaker 3: should I read out?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I think you should. I think it's worth noting that

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Speaker 4: like this style of propaganda close to the mirrors a

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Speaker 4: lot of what like DHS and the Trump administration is

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Speaker 4: doing on their official accounts. So a lot of a

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Speaker 4: lot of the like mimified content creation format and like

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Speaker 4: aesthetics being used to just display like torture and deportations

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Speaker 4: and human arts abuses is very common among government accounts

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Speaker 4: in the States right now. It's pretty pretty horrifying to

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Speaker 4: look at. And this this kind of follows this suit

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Speaker 4: and is possibly even more bleak. Yeah, but yeah, we

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Speaker 4: should read read this whole message and then and then

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Speaker 4: we'll price skip around on the video and talk about

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Speaker 4: what we're seeing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I'll just read it obviously, you know, to

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Speaker 3: understand I'm quoting it hit early from him today. The

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Speaker 3: first two hundred and thirty eight members of the Venezuelan

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Speaker 3: criminal organization trend Raguas arrived in our country. They were

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Speaker 3: immediately transferred to sikor the Terrorism Confinement Center for a

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Speaker 3: period of one year. Parentheses renewable. The United States will

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Speaker 3: pay a very low fee for them, but a high

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Speaker 3: one for US over time. These actions, combined with the

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Speaker 3: production already being generated by more than forty thousand inmates

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Speaker 3: engaged in various workshops and labor under the Zero Idleness program,

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Speaker 3: will help make our prison system self sustainable. As of today,

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Speaker 3: it costs two hundred billion per year. On this occasion,

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Speaker 3: the US has sent us twenty three MS thirteen members

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Speaker 3: wanted by Salvadory Injustice, including two ring leaders. One of

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Speaker 3: them is a member of the criminal organization's highest structure.

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Speaker 3: This will help us finalize intelligence gathering and go after

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Speaker 3: the last remnants of MS thirty, including its former and

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Speaker 3: new members, money, weapons, drugs, hideouts, collaborators, and sponsors. As always,

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Speaker 3: you continue advancing in a fight against organized crime, but

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Speaker 3: this time we're also helping our allies, making our prisonessest

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Speaker 3: them selves sustainable and obtaining vital intelligence to make our

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Speaker 3: country an even safer place. All in a single action.

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Speaker 3: They God blessed Sarbador, and may God bless the United States.

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Speaker 3: I should probably just add that the US sent three

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Speaker 3: million dollars to pay for these six million dollars I'm

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Speaker 3: sorry to pay for the three hundred prisoners that intended

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Speaker 3: to send.

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Speaker 4: The Zero Idleness program is like one of the most

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Speaker 4: sinister things I've read recently.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you could put out of a George

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Speaker 3: Orwell or like a old Huxley or something right, and

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Speaker 3: it wouldn't sound out of.

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Speaker 4: It's even like you know, it's almost cliche now to

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Speaker 4: point like German work camps.

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Speaker 3: But like yeah, I mean come on, yeah, yeah, that

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Speaker 3: we're doing it again.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, we'll probably play a clip of the music

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Speaker 4: and then I'm going to skip around on the video.

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Speaker 4: You can just talk about what we're seeing here. It's first,

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Speaker 4: we have a shot of an airport with three different

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Speaker 4: planes and people getting rounded up and pushed on in

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Speaker 4: single file. It has like this like action movie type

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Speaker 4: music lines of soldiers.

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Speaker 3: So as as the.

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Speaker 4: People getting loaded on the plane, they're getting like forced

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Speaker 4: forced down. There's like people with like guns, police military

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Speaker 4: like manhandling people pushing their heads down, physically removing clothing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're showing their tattoos there, right, that's what they're

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Speaker 3: pulling up his shirt. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: But like even the way that they just like walk

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Speaker 4: around with these people like like like forcing their heads

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Speaker 4: almost to like their concrete as they make them shuffle

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Speaker 4: on the ground, like basic dehumanization. Shows them getting transported

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Speaker 4: onto buses.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so they said they're arriving at SECOD now sort

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Speaker 3: of bright white, very sterile facility. Now they're being forced

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Speaker 3: onto their knees, yeah, and shaved.

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Speaker 4: Getting their beards shaved, heads shaved, getting shackled, all while

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Speaker 4: being forced onto their knees on the ground.

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Speaker 3: Then the cops doing this are all wearing I guess balaklavas.

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Speaker 3: I would describe them as face masks and hats.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, all of all of the military police officials are

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Speaker 4: trying to hide their identity as they you know, publicly

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Speaker 4: display the actions that they're doing, as when they're you know,

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Speaker 4: shaving and holding people's heads up for the camera.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: So it it's it's a lot of that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 3: You see.

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Speaker 4: You see them like pushing some pushing people all in

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Speaker 4: matching white clothes in single file into cells.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is the cell. So we spoke about before.

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Speaker 3: We will include this link in the in the sources.

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Speaker 4: It's basically just three minutes of torture porn. Like that's like,

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Speaker 4: that's what that's what they're doing.

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Speaker 3: I guess, yeah, it's it's it's pretty bleak, honestly, Like, I.

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Speaker 4: Don't know what else to say about it, besides like

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Speaker 4: it's it's just it's just like channeling pure evil, Like

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Speaker 4: I like, it's it's I there's nothing else to say.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's I mean, that's I don't know how anyone

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Speaker 3: can watch that and think good. So we should talk

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Speaker 3: about how they're identifying these people, and we should talk

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Speaker 3: about the process by which they were sent there. ICE

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Speaker 3: policy says a person could be deemed a gang member

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Speaker 3: if they office a note to quote gang membership identification criteria.

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Speaker 3: One of the criteria that they seem to be using

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Speaker 3: in this instance is their tattoos. So there are some

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Speaker 3: gangs that have a process of tattooing to enter the gang.

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Speaker 3: Right MS thirteen Mara Salvastructure, it's what they're mess stands

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Speaker 3: for being one of them. These like Mara Central American

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Speaker 3: gangs have tended to use that in the past. This

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Speaker 3: isn't really something that happens with Trend de Ragua as

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Speaker 3: far as I'm aware of. Some people they've pointed to

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Speaker 3: tattoos of trains in a document they get found from

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Speaker 3: the Texas Department of Public Safety. They're pointing to stars

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Speaker 3: as evidence that people were part of Trend de Ragua.

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Speaker 3: So I remember where Trend de Dragua does not have

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Speaker 3: a policy of tattooing people specifically, because this is a

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Speaker 3: thing that has been used by law enforcement to identify members,

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Speaker 3: right like, it would be silly to keep doing that

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Speaker 3: once once it's become so clear that the state uses that.

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Speaker 3: So the one sort of case that I've seen legal

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Speaker 3: documents on of these people, the one name we have

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Speaker 3: one of these people who's been sent is a man

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Speaker 3: named Hersirees Barrios.

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Speaker 5: He was a.

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Speaker 3: Footballer professional football in Venezuela who protested against my daughter regime,

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Speaker 3: was tortured and detained a result I've spoken to. Probably

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Speaker 3: I would imagine thousands of Venezuela and migrants. Right again,

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Speaker 3: I would like you to listen to my series on

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Speaker 3: Italian Gap if you haven't put a lot into it.

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Speaker 3: All of these people have stories of watching people be shot,

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Speaker 3: the brutal repression of protest, state violence, economic collapse, persecution

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Speaker 3: for supporting the opposition in the country, right, and this

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Speaker 3: is one of those stories. The criteria that they used

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Speaker 3: to identify him were a tattoo which had a football

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Speaker 3: with a crown over the top and then the word

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Speaker 3: Dios God in English underneath. Rais Barrios' lawyer says that

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Speaker 3: this is an homage the logo of Reel Madrid, his

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Speaker 3: favorite football club. They have claimed that his evidence of

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Speaker 3: gang membership. That's what the government is claiming here. The

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Speaker 3: other criteria that they used is a picture of him

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Speaker 3: throwing up the horns. I guess which I believe it

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Speaker 3: means I love you in sign language, I'm not sure

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Speaker 3: if I think an urban legend or of that's the case,

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Speaker 3: and there are obviously different languages. But this is a

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Speaker 3: hand gesture. It's especially common in the Spanish speaking world.

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Speaker 3: If you're not familiar, I have my little finger and

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Speaker 3: my index finger extended and my two other fingers curled

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Speaker 3: up as if I was making it fist.

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Speaker 4: Almost like almost like a spider man hand symbol.

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Speaker 3: I guess sure, I'm not familiar, but if you say

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Speaker 3: so to visually reference for people, if you are making

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Speaker 3: a little cow like a bulk with your hands, sure

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Speaker 3: you would be doing your shadow puppeting.

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Speaker 5: It's very common. Like, yes, it's a very typical hands.

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Speaker 3: It's a thing that people do when they're taking photos,

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Speaker 3: like I've even seen it, like when you know, if

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Speaker 3: there's if I'm working with a photographer and they're snapping

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Speaker 3: photos of larger groups of people, people just do it,

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Speaker 3: like just like people do the peace sign. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's a thing to do with your hands. Those are

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Speaker 3: two criteria they use. So I should point out that

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Speaker 3: none of these people have been accused or convicted of

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Speaker 3: a crime, either in the United States or in El Salvador. Right.

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Speaker 3: Even if they had been accused of a crime, even

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Speaker 3: convicted of the crime, the United States is very unclear

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Speaker 3: what legal basis they would be to then detain them

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Speaker 3: in Thel Salvador, right, Like the United States doesn't have

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Speaker 3: a system whereby we can send people to penal colonies.

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Speaker 3: At the time of writing, this has been challenged in court. Right,

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Speaker 3: a district court judge attempted to block the A district

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Speaker 3: court judge did block these removals. Now he actually blocked

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Speaker 3: them before the people had arrived in El Salvador. However,

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Speaker 3: despite this, the planes didn't turn around. And I'm just

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Speaker 3: going to quote directly from what the judge said here

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Speaker 3: quote any plane containing these folks and it's going to

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Speaker 3: take off or is in the air, needs to be

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Speaker 3: returned to the United States. And then it's another quote later.

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Speaker 3: This is something you need to make sure he is

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Speaker 3: complied with immediately. This didn't happen, right. The planes went

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Speaker 3: from the US torn d Salvador. They didn't stop even

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Speaker 3: when the judge had given its order for them to stop. Now,

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Speaker 3: normally in illegal proceeding such as this, right that the

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Speaker 3: government or one of the parties may not agree with

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Speaker 3: the findings of the judge, and they may choose to

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Speaker 3: appeal it right, that's very normal. You still comply with

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Speaker 3: the order, then appeal it right. You don't just keep

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Speaker 3: doing whatever you feel like doing because you don't think

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Speaker 3: the judge was right. Like, that's in theory, not how

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Speaker 3: this works. Now in practice, what means does a judge

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Speaker 3: have to force the executive to listen to him?

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Speaker 5: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: We're not seeing any of them on display at the minute.

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Speaker 3: The government has cited various reasons for ignoring the ruling.

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Speaker 3: One of them, Press Secureary Caroline leave It claimed that

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Speaker 3: there was quote no lawful basis for the ruling. Go

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Speaker 3: back to my previous statement about how you're supposed to

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Speaker 3: appeal things. They also claimed in court that a verbal

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Speaker 3: order is not the same as a written one. That's

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Speaker 3: not something that's generally understood to be the case, and

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Speaker 3: that because the flights were over international water, the order

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Speaker 3: did not apply. This was then part of the foreign

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Speaker 3: policy powers reserved to the president. That last one is

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Speaker 3: particularly worrying. It's you effectively don't have your rights in

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Speaker 3: international waters role like humans don't have rights in international waters.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just allowing the US government or the EUSt

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Speaker 4: government trying to say that it's allowed to do whatever

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Speaker 4: it wants if the action is being taken or not,

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Speaker 4: like immediately on US soil or other foreign soil.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So we're going to take another break, and when we

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Speaker 3: come back, we will talk about their response to this

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Speaker 3: judges ruling.

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Speaker 5: All right, and we are back.

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Speaker 3: So Tramp's response to this Judge Boseberg's ruling was I'm

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Speaker 3: just going to read this is a true social post

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Speaker 3: aka a truth quote. This radical left nudatic of a judge,

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Speaker 3: a troublemaker and agitator who was sadly appointed by Barak Hussein.

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Speaker 3: Obama was not elected President.

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Speaker 2: M Dash.

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to say when it's capitalized, just to

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Speaker 3: understand that it's sporadically capitalized in the fashion that Trump

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Speaker 3: likes to do. He didn't win the popular vote parentheses

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Speaker 3: by a lot exclamation mark comma. He didn't win all

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Speaker 3: seven swing states. He didn't win two seven hundred and

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Speaker 3: fifty to five and twenty five counties. He didn't win anything.

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Speaker 3: I won for many reasons in an overwhelming mandate, but

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Speaker 3: fightaling illegal immigration may have been the number one reason

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Speaker 3: for this historic victory and just doing what the voters

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Speaker 3: wanted me to do. This judge, like many of the

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Speaker 3: crooked judges I'm forced to appear before, should be impeached.

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Speaker 3: We don't want vicious, violent and tormented criminals, many of

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Speaker 3: them deranged murderers, in our country. Make America great again,

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Speaker 3: Tom Homan. The borders are also told Fox News quote,

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Speaker 3: I don't care what the judges think.

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Speaker 6: We made a promise to American people. The President Trump

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Speaker 6: has made a promise to American people we're going to

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Speaker 6: make this country say again, I wake up every morning

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Speaker 6: loving my job because I work for the greatest president

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Speaker 6: in the history of my life, and we're going to

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Speaker 6: make this country safe again. I'm probably be a part

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Speaker 6: of this administration. We're not stopping. I don't care what

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Speaker 6: the judges think. I don't care the left. Thanks, we're

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Speaker 6: coming too.

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Speaker 7: I just love seeing you going through these protests. Is

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Speaker 7: just crunching on the apple as they're liberal tears just

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Speaker 7: just fle out the hallway. Tom Holman, thanks so much

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Speaker 7: for joining the program.

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Speaker 3: You gotta think this is open defiance of the courts, right, Like,

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Speaker 3: I don't really know.

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Speaker 4: It's what we've been talking about the past month on

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Speaker 4: executive disorder. How we are just continually like ramping up

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Speaker 4: this clash between the executive branch and the judicial branch.

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Speaker 4: The congressional branch has already basically given up all of

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Speaker 4: their power, and yeah, this is like an actual constitutional crisis. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: very few people are taking this as seriously as what

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Speaker 4: it should be, and even the courts seem a little

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Speaker 4: bit tepid to like actually enforce their own power or

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Speaker 4: like try to.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean Boseberg mentioned contempt once from what I

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Speaker 3: can find on PACER. But like, obviously these judges I

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Speaker 3: think are somewhat concerned that if they, you know, they

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Speaker 3: find the government in contempt to court, then what happens

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Speaker 3: because if you, like, yeah, if you play your Trump

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Speaker 3: card and no one cares, then you have no carves

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Speaker 3: left to play.

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Speaker 4: It's it's kind of odd how the judges themselves are

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Speaker 4: seemingly afraid of like pushing this constitutional crisis into a

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Speaker 4: explicit territory right to be like what if we do

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Speaker 4: the thing that then makes it clear to everyone else

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Speaker 4: like we have no power, like like we actually have

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Speaker 4: like like it is just authoritarianism via the executive branch. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: it's almost like they're trying to like backpedal from this

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Speaker 4: like very obvious accelerationist push of like, no, we need

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Speaker 4: to actually test test this out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because we need to know where we're at.

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Speaker 4: Like, and they're scared too, because they're scared what if

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Speaker 4: what if that testing causes like the Trump side to win?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but they were already winning in the in the

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Speaker 3: absence exactly.

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Speaker 4: And the problem is that in absence of that, you

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Speaker 4: were just giving up and letting Trump win.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Like after Trump called.

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Speaker 4: To impeach the quote unquote radical leftist lunatic of a

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Speaker 4: judge who tried to temporarily halt the deportation of of

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Speaker 4: these three hundred Venezuelan immigrants. Chief Justice John Roberts made

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Speaker 4: a rare public statement rebuking calls to impeach judges for

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Speaker 4: rulings that don't align with political agendas. And that's as

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Speaker 4: far as they're going right now. They're making rare public

437
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,160
Speaker 4: statements saying you probably shouldn't call to impeach a judge. Meanwhile,

438
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,240
Speaker 4: Musk complaints on Twitter dot com about a quote unquote

439
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 4: judicial coup, and it mistakenly calls for sixty senators to

440
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,399
Speaker 4: impeach a leftist to judges. Now, of course, the Senate

441
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 4: does not do impeachments. The House does, and the Senate

442
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 4: requires sixty seven votes to convict it and remove someone

443
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:55,159
Speaker 4: from office once impeached. So, haha, we got you, We

444
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,680
Speaker 4: got you, Elon, you made a mistake, We win, not coing.

445
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's where we're at right now with this case.

446
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 3: We're recording this. On Thursday, Boseberg gave them twenty four

447
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 3: our extension to provide details about the flights. The government

448
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 3: has suggested that it might claim that these are state secrets,

449
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 3: despite the fact that it has widely publicized these flights,

450
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 3: including in the video that we discussed.

451
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, they're turning these into fucking like tiktoking Instagram real

452
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 4: hype videos.

453
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,440
Speaker 5: They're not state secrets publicly.

454
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 4: You're publicly displaying these to show that these people are

455
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 4: not human. Yeah, like you're trying to scare everyone into saying,

456
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 4: we decide if you are a person or not, and

457
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,120
Speaker 4: if you're not a person, this is what we can do.

458
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 3: This, we can do whatever we want to. Yeah, it

459
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 3: should be noted as well. There is actually a process

460
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,199
Speaker 3: in US law, through the Alien Terrorist Removal Court for

461
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 3: the expedited removal of terrorist suspects without revealing classified information publicly.

462
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 3: In fact, Bosberg was chief judge on that.

463
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 5: Court for five years.

464
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 1: Jesus Christ.

465
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 3: But we are not using that process where were using

466
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 3: their Alien Enemies Acted today. So yeah, this is a

467
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 3: new exciting territory. In On Monday, so that's the day

468
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 3: that you're hearing this, a panel of judges from the

469
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,919
Speaker 3: District Court in DC will hear an appeal by the

470
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 3: United States Government against Bozberg's attentive restraining order, the one

471
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 3: that it didn't obey anyway, So we will have more

472
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 3: on this, and we will keep updating you on this,

473
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 3: and suffice it to say that I guess again this

474
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 3: is a constitutional crisis. Like this is what it looks like.

475
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,399
Speaker 3: I don't know if people expect like fireworks to go

476
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 3: off or like some confetti to drop and it to

477
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:43,120
Speaker 3: be like the separation of powers is gone, but if

478
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 3: the government can ignore the courts, and that is what

479
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 3: is happening. So I guess we will see in the meantime.

480
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 3: These people, many of whom one of them was a musician,

481
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 3: one of them was a football player, right Like, I've

482
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,120
Speaker 3: interviewed hundreds, if not thousands, of fens word of migrants,

483
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:03,879
Speaker 3: and most of them, it will shock you to hear,

484
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 3: are just people who don't want to live with the

485
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 3: state on the neck, people who want to make a

486
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 3: decent living for their their families. For what it's worth.

487
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 3: None of the Venezuelan migrants are met in the Dadian

488
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 3: Gap or in the United States or have come to

489
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 3: United States or my knowledge, just for people who are

490
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 3: like wondering how those stories kind of resolve, they resolve

491
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 3: with people currently stuck in Mexico in pretty terrible conditions,

492
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 3: either working for very little or unable to work at all,

493
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 3: and trying to work out what to do. It's pretty

494
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 3: bleak for them, it's pretty bleak for us to if

495
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 3: this is the duration that things are going. I don't

496
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:41,719
Speaker 3: ever have much more to say.

497
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:44,160
Speaker 4: No, I don't know what else there is to say

498
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 4: about them, just bypassing the courts to do a complete

499
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 4: authoritarian overgrab so that they can send hundreds of people

500
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 4: to essentially like a labor camp black site in a

501
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,640
Speaker 4: different country for an unknown period of time without any

502
00:26:58,920 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 4: legal process.

503
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 3: Gets to be clear, not all of these people even

504
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,679
Speaker 3: entered the United States between ports of entry, which has

505
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 3: been charged as a misdemeanor generally isn't charged. Some of

506
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,239
Speaker 3: them came with the CBP one the fucking app the

507
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 3: thing you're supposed to do.

508
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 5: These are not proven criminals like these.

509
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 4: These these are just people, some of whom who immigrated

510
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 4: legally and have been detained by ICE. I don't now

511
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 4: shipped off to a like torture labor prison in a

512
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 4: different country where they're going to stay for at least

513
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 4: a year in parenthesis renewable, so like in depth ary,

514
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:36,880
Speaker 4: Like it's like.

515
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 3: They can be forced to labor for the rest of

516
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 3: their lives, a thing that has happened before in human history.

517
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,199
Speaker 4: No, Like, if you're like history understanders should look at

518
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 4: what's happening and be like, oh, we're doing that again, huh.

519
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 4: And the only way that this ends is with people

520
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 4: getting angry enough to start doing something about it. And

521
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 4: I feel like we are we're so like everyone's become

522
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 4: so complacent that it's even hard to get people to

523
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 4: care or like hear about this sort of thing from happening.

524
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you don't have to be like, I want

525
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 3: to phrase this in radical terms that you don't have

526
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 3: to be like anywhere on the left to understand that, like,

527
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 3: this is an assault on basic human rights. It's a

528
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 3: sort on the foundational principles of the United States government.

529
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 3: And everyone should be concerned about this. You shouldn't be

530
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 3: a left right issue. This should be like a right

531
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 3: wrong issue. So hopefully you can all have some talks

532
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 3: with your family this week. I don't know, like, I

533
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 3: think it's really important to push back on the idea

534
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 3: that these people have done any crimes, because they have not,

535
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 3: that they have been convicted or found using any reasonable

536
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 3: degree of evidence to be members of gangs like trend

537
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 3: de Ragua.

538
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 4: And even if they have been convicted, they should not

539
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 4: be sent to the Al Salvador Order labor camp. But

540
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 4: the fact that they're not even convicted, these are just

541
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 4: random in some cases, like random Venezuelan men who have

542
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 4: been rounded up.

543
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 3: For the crime of having tattoos. For the most part, horrifying.

544
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 3: It is petrifying.

545
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's happening like it.

546
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 3: Is happening here.

547
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 4: Every every day, We're getting closer to the Cool Zone

548
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 4: as more and more people start taking this situation seriously.

549
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, yeah, take it seriously, you know, advocate for

550
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 3: these people. Best of luck, And if you want to

551
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 3: email us, you can do Cool Zone tips at proton

552
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 3: don't me that's an encrypted email address, but it's only

553
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 3: encrypted end to end. If you also send from an

554
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 3: encrypted email address, do your due diligence, and yeah, send us,

555
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 3: send us tips if you have tips, ideas, if you

556
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 3: have ideas, and we will be back tomorrow with more

557
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 3: things that are happening here.

558
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 5: Welcome to could Happened Here? A podcast about bad things.

559
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 5: Usually I don't know. This is mostly a bad Things episode.

560
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 5: I am your host, Miya Wong, And one of the

561
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 5: kind of things we've emphasized on the show a lot

562
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 5: is that a lot of the structure of the kind

563
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 5: of open fascism that we're seeing now is stuff that

564
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 5: was put in place under liberal administrations and it's practices

565
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 5: that are carried out by Democrats. And one of the

566
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 5: biggest ones of those and this is something that I

567
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 5: think you can trace the violence here and you can

568
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 5: trace the politics that it inspired directly to how we

569
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 5: got to Trump being in power is the just continuous

570
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 5: crisis in the US of governments doing sweeps of encampments

571
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 5: of unhoused people. And to talk about really one of

572
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 5: the most horrifying things that happens regularly in a country

573
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 5: of just unhinged and hideous horror is Emma, who does

574
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 5: advocacy work for on house and disabled people and Alameda County,

575
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 5: and Satya, who does support drink sweeps in Oakland when yeah,

576
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 5: this fucking got hintshit happens. So both of you two,

577
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 5: welcome to the show.

578
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: Thanks for having us. Yeah, thank you appreciate the chance

579
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: to talk with you.

580
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, I always want to say that I'm excited and

581
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 5: like it is true. However, I wish I ran a

582
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 5: podcast that was about like good things, so that why

583
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 5: I could talk to people. It wasn't like, it wasn't

584
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 5: me being like, yeah, I'm excited to talk about like

585
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 5: the worst thing that happened. So I think a place

586
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 5: to start on this is when we talk about what

587
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 5: a sweep actually is on a physical level of what happens,

588
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,959
Speaker 5: because I think people really don't have a sense of that.

589
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think stopped ya. Maybe you want to

590
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 1: take this one.

591
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 8: Yeah, I'm happy to take this one. Yeah, thank you.

592
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 8: I feel like, first of all, before I even go

593
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 8: into it, yes, I think a lot of people who

594
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 8: have never experienced a sweep or don't have loved ones

595
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 8: who have been swept. I think a lot of people

596
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 8: have no idea what a sweep actually can, even if

597
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 8: in a general sense they feel that it's a bad

598
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 8: thing or a wrong thing. And I think part of

599
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 8: that is deliberate. Sweeps usually happen during business hours, during

600
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 8: nine to five hours, because at least in Oakland, they're

601
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 8: conducted by the Department of Public Works. They're city employees,

602
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 8: they work nine to five, so accept in cases where

603
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 8: they work over time, or when the city uses loopholes

604
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 8: to get around posting notice and ends up doing a

605
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 8: sweep on the weekend. They're usually happening when a lot

606
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 8: of middle class housed folks are at work and not

607
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 8: out and about seeing what's going on. So a sweep,

608
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 8: and I'm primarily talking in the context of Oakland, California,

609
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 8: but I think it's safe to assume that these operate

610
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 8: in similar ways around the country. Generally, what will happen

611
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 8: is you, let's say you're living in an encampment, a

612
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 8: sweep has been posted in Oakland. There is policy that

613
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 8: states that you're supposed to have received at least a

614
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 8: week's notice. However, a lot of people don't receive this notice,

615
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 8: might not even know that it's happening. You might wake

616
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 8: up at around nine am to a bunch of heavy

617
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 8: machinery pulling up dump truck, small bulldozers, other types of

618
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 8: sort of like heavy equipment. And then you'll have somebody

619
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 8: from the city administration, like a city administrator's assistant, going

620
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 8: around announcing that the city of Oakland is there, you know,

621
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 8: making noise that your tent or your car or wherever

622
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 8: you're staying, saying hey, this encampment is being closed down.

623
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 3: You have to be out of here.

624
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 8: There usually are representatives of the city's contracted outreach organization

625
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 8: called Operation Dignity. They're supposed to be there. Very rarely

626
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 8: do they actually have referral for somewhere to go. They'll

627
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 8: basically just be like, hey, do you want services. They

628
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 8: won't usually specify what the services are. They'll just show

629
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 8: up and be like, hey, do you want services. If

630
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 8: you say yes or have questions about what services are available,

631
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 8: they may give you a sort of very vague rundown

632
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 8: of whatever might be available that because they don't usually

633
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 8: even find out what openings are available until ten am

634
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 8: on any given day, so at the time that they

635
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 8: roll up, they usually don't even know what's available yet.

636
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 8: So it kind of progresses from there. I mean, every

637
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 8: sweep is a little different, but the commonality between all

638
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 8: of them is that what the city is there to

639
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,839
Speaker 8: do is essentially to erase all signed that anybody ever

640
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 8: lived there. So either you are able to pack as

641
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 8: much stuff as you can and get it out of

642
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,839
Speaker 8: the eviction zone before the city decides that it's your

643
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 8: turn to be targeted, or all of your stuff ends

644
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 8: up in the back of a dump truck. There are

645
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 8: other sort of specific pieces of policy and operational things

646
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 8: that can vary from time to time, like, for example,

647
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,839
Speaker 8: they're supposed to follow a bag and tag policy, which

648
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,320
Speaker 8: means that they're expected to store up to a cubic

649
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 8: yard of somebody's belongings for ninety days at a storage

650
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 8: location in East Oakland. They rarely do this unless hounded

651
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 8: to do so, and most of the time, the actual

652
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 8: process as of going back and reclaiming your belongings from

653
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 8: that location has enough barriers that almost nobody ever manages

654
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 8: to do it.

655
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:08,839
Speaker 5: Yeah. So, so to just make this clear, the thing

656
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:10,360
Speaker 5: that they're doing is they show up and then they

657
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 5: fucking deshoil your property, yep. Like the thing that it

658
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,760
Speaker 5: most closely resembles is like we're doing our own miniature

659
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 5: ethnic cleansings. Like that's just like what that is.

660
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 1: Ye, Yes, And every suite there are at least several

661
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 1: police you know, depending on the size of the sweep,

662
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,360
Speaker 1: that can be even more. And so there is a

663
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 1: very real threat of police violence like underlying every single

664
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 1: encampment suite. And so the SUITEP that Oakland this week

665
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:50,439
Speaker 1: practices that Oakland has set up are like very kind

666
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 1: of odd, and they are associated with different like lawsuits

667
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,320
Speaker 1: that have occurred in the past couple of actually since

668
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: the seventies. But so there are certain requirements that the

669
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: City of Oakland is obligated to follow in like certain

670
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:14,240
Speaker 1: provisions and offers that like homeless people are technically supposed

671
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,800
Speaker 1: to be receiving and for a bunch of complicated reasons,

672
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 1: like rarely ever are so for instance, like the bag

673
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: and tag policy that Satya was just discussing, Like da've

674
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: recently somebody did a pra request to see whether or

675
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: not to say he was actually following faithfully following that policy.

676
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,800
Speaker 1: And I think in like over a year there were

677
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 1: I believe eight bagging tags that were registered in the

678
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 1: city system. And that was in that same period there

679
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 1: were like well over one hundred sweeps you know, I

680
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 1: don't have the exact number on me, but or yeah,

681
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 1: actually five hundred and thirty seven closure two instances of

682
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 1: storing property. So you know that's people's their whole lives.

683
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 1: All their possessions like precious items that they they're able

684
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 1: to hang on to are just yeah, destroyed and they

685
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:21,720
Speaker 1: never see them again.

686
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 8: And I would also add to the piece around like

687
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 8: the quote like offer of services, Like that's also something

688
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,320
Speaker 8: written into their policy that they're supposed to be connecting

689
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 8: people to housing ahead of sweeps, and that's what they

690
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 8: use to continually justify the way that they operate. Is

691
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,320
Speaker 8: that in for example, city council meetings and Homelessness Commission

692
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:47,280
Speaker 8: meetings where city admin is questioned on their procedures because

693
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 8: they get complaints, like the Homeless Commission gets complaints constantly

694
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:54,280
Speaker 8: of people being mistreated, losing all their belongings, never getting

695
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 8: referred to housing, and so forth. And the justification that's

696
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 8: constantly used is like, well, we're offering people service, says

697
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 8: every time, and they just refuse them. And I think

698
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 8: that that is pretty much the number one mythology that

699
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:10,359
Speaker 8: is continuing to spur a lot of the like pro

700
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 8: sweep discourse in Oakland specifically, and I'm sure in other

701
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 8: parts of the country as well, and people are not

702
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,399
Speaker 8: like to be clear, most of the time, people are

703
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 8: not actually being offered services. It's just not happening.

704
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is a national discourse, he shares alt. I mean,

705
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 5: you know, I think a lot of it kind of

706
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 5: is concentrated in the most unhinged like tech sectors in

707
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,799
Speaker 5: the Bay. But like you hear like officially Elon Musk

708
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 5: has talked about like, oh, there's there's like a homeless

709
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 5: industrial complex and like all of these people are just

710
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 5: like they want to live on the street, and like

711
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 5: they're like turning down houses all the time, and it's

712
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 5: just like it's so it's so completely unmored from reality.

713
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 8: But what's funny is I've actually used the term homeless

714
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:58,799
Speaker 8: industrial complex myself. I didn't know that that's hilarious. There

715
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 8: is a homeless industry, it's just that the people making

716
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 8: money off of it are the people who are perpetrating

717
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 8: those sweeps. The reason that they're not actually putting forth

718
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 8: real solutions that will get people into safe shelter and

719
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 8: housing is because they're the ones benefiting from the perpetuation

720
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 8: of these economic conditions.

721
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's so many things that I want to pick

722
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 1: up on, but I guess just on that point specifically, Like,

723
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 1: there was an audit into California spending on homelessness. I

724
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,359
Speaker 1: believe it was over a period of seven years, and

725
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: it showed that there was twenty four billion dollars spent

726
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 1: on grants to nonprofits or cities to provide people with

727
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: different services that are kind of designed around homelessness and

728
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,720
Speaker 1: providing housing or legal services. Like there's a whole range

729
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 1: of things that's out there, but a lot of the

730
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 1: time like these are the only options that are available

731
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 1: to people, and they tend to produce less than stell

732
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,800
Speaker 1: the results. So, out of the twenty four billion dollars

733
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:16,800
Speaker 1: that was allocated to help homeless people in that same

734
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 1: period of time, homelessness in California just like skyrocketed, right,

735
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 1: So rates of homelessness increased while this money was getting

736
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: plumped into the pockets of the bank accounts of landlords

737
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 1: and developers. It is an issue that people on every

738
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 1: side of the political compass like they like to use

739
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: this point to their own ends, right, So Elon Musk

740
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 1: talks about it, and like people on the left will

741
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: talk about it. But I think like the experience that

742
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 1: people on the street have is very different than any

743
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,800
Speaker 1: of these narratives that you tend to hear in the media.

744
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 5: Yes, unfortunately, we need to take an ad break. I

745
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 5: don't have a good transition here. I don't know, We'll

746
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:09,919
Speaker 5: move of one set of horrors to a slightly different

747
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 5: set of horrors and go back to the first set

748
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 5: of horrors.

749
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 1: All of this money is being dedicated to these programs,

750
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:31,279
Speaker 1: and homelessness is only rising. I think, like one thing

751
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: that I've heard before that's a kind of useful way

752
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 1: to think about this kind of government spending is if

753
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 1: homeless people would be better off if you just gave

754
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:45,319
Speaker 1: them the money directly, you know, then that kind of way,

755
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: it's really hard to justify these programs when that can't

756
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 1: be said of them, you know.

757
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,400
Speaker 8: And I think the thing that you pointed out, Emma,

758
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,240
Speaker 8: about the fact that we have huge amounts of money

759
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 8: allegedly being spent on my homelessness abatement or homeless services

760
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 8: at the same time that homelessness is skyrocketing is really

761
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 8: not an accident, because what that money is really being

762
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 8: spent on is to fuel exactly what is it, like,

763
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 8: the homeless industrial complex. There's a reason that most of

764
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:14,840
Speaker 8: that money is going into the pockets of landlords and

765
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 8: developers and then sort of like these sort of large

766
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 8: like nonprofit almost like conglomerates of like service providers. And

767
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 8: it's because the primary point of homelessness services as it

768
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:30,479
Speaker 8: exists in this country is not to get homeless people

769
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 8: into housing. It's to line the pockets of the people

770
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 8: that are making the most money off of the real

771
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 8: estate market anyway. And so because of that, it is

772
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 8: not an accident that you see homeless spending and homelessness

773
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 8: like escalating at the same time. It's because this is

774
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 8: the feedback loop, Like, this is the way that our

775
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 8: you know, economic priorities in this country are structured, are

776
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,439
Speaker 8: such that those two things are going to feed into

777
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 8: each other because that money doesn't actually exist to serve

778
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 8: the populations that they say that they're using it to serve.

779
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 8: What they do get to do is by claiming that

780
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 8: that money is going into homelessness abatement, when clearly it isn't.

781
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 8: They then get to spend a narrative where they say, oh,

782
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 8: we've spent all this money, but the problem is just

783
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 8: getting worse. That must mean that it is the fault

784
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 8: of unhoused people and that they're choosing this because clearly

785
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 8: the services must exist to get them off the street.

786
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 8: In reality, that's not the case at all.

787
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think also it's super important for people to

788
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:37,359
Speaker 1: understand that these programs, housing programs, shelter programs, they are

789
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:43,720
Speaker 1: out there but they are decoupled from the sweep operations

790
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 1: that are occurring. Right So, the City of Oakland, they

791
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 1: are contracted with a nonprofit softia mentioned earlier called Operation Dignity,

792
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: and they are required to check in with its different

793
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 1: encampments that are scheduled to be closed at least a

794
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:09,359
Speaker 1: week before the suite and the purpose of that is

795
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 1: to notify people that it's happening. The City of Oakland

796
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 1: is required for the terms of this lawsuit back in

797
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 1: I believe twenty nineteen, the Moralees lawsuit, and there was

798
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 1: a settlement that resulted in the city being required to

799
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:32,800
Speaker 1: provide clear notices whenever they're going to close like a site.

800
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 1: So yeah, this nonprofit providers was to like notify people

801
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 1: and try to get them connected with services. However, the

802
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 1: services for the most part, like housing for people who

803
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: are unhoused, is largely funded through the federal government and

804
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:59,959
Speaker 1: through this very like complex and inaccessible system called coordinated entry.

805
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 1: The coordinated Entry system is not something that the City

806
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:11,280
Speaker 1: of Oakland or Operation Dignity like that is not something

807
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 1: that they're providing people with during the sweep. So when

808
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 1: the City of Oakland, like for instance, and one of

809
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 1: the Commissions on Homelessness meetings, the city administrator Harold Duffy.

810
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 1: He presented actually in response to a question about somebody's

811
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 1: wheelchair being destroyed by public works. Yeah, he gave this

812
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 1: really like roundabout deflecting answer where he said basically that

813
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:52,359
Speaker 1: everyone who is at an encampment at the time of

814
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 1: the sweep has like expressly refused services like shelter or

815
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 1: housing or whatever, and that they kind of presumes that

816
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 1: the city actually has opportunities that they can provide people with,

817
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 1: which is just not the case. The Coordinated Entry System,

818
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 1: it is a program that is first of all, like

819
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 1: only people who are disabled can get what's called permanent

820
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 1: supportive housing through the program. But also it is in

821
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:30,400
Speaker 1: such high demand and is so inadequate to the needs

822
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 1: that Alameda County is currently like the situation that we're

823
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:40,360
Speaker 1: in that the wait list is like thousands of people long,

824
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 1: and it can take well over a year before someone

825
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 1: can get housing through that system. So it's just like

826
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 1: it's not true. They do offer people what are called

827
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: community cabins, which are tough sheds.

828
00:46:58,160 --> 00:46:59,879
Speaker 8: They're not even offerend people that they're full.

829
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what they say. They offer sorry I had

830
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:04,319
Speaker 1: me to cut you off.

831
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 8: I feel strongly about this, so I think it's also

832
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 8: worth saying, like in terms of I feel like that's

833
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 8: a really a really useful layout, Emma, in terms of

834
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:16,840
Speaker 8: like the way that the system is actually structured for

835
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 8: people not to be able to access services, I feel

836
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 8: like it's also worth pointing out that just day to

837
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:26,360
Speaker 8: day on the ground, I feel like I feel like

838
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 8: I get to see a lot of sort of like

839
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 8: minute details and changes in the way that they're operating

840
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 8: in response to what they're like internal systems actually look like.

841
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,479
Speaker 8: And what we have seen over the last six months

842
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 8: to a year is not only this pattern that I'm

843
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 8: I was talking about of like they're like people are

844
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 8: consistently not getting connected with services and then being accused

845
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:50,799
Speaker 8: of refusing services just due to the conditions that they're

846
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:55,359
Speaker 8: living under, but also everything that Oakland has and that

847
00:47:55,520 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 8: approaches like livable transitional housing, which is kind of laughable

848
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 8: in this case because we can also go into like

849
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 8: the conditions of the transitional housing programs and shelters in

850
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:08,360
Speaker 8: Oakland which are abysmal, but everything that they have that

851
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 8: approaches livable transitional housing is full.

852
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 5: I very rarely.

853
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 8: Every few weeks, maybe I see one or two people

854
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 8: get referred to one of those programs, and far more

855
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 8: often I'll be in a situation. For example, I was

856
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 8: I was at a sweep over near twenty third and

857
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 8: Northgate a couple of weeks ago, and I was there

858
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 8: when Operation Dignity rolled up and I heard what they

859
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 8: were saying when they were talking to people, and this

860
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 8: one dude was going around talking to folks and he

861
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 8: kind of he wasn't even approaching talking about services. He

862
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 8: was approaching being like, Hey, I just here to let

863
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 8: you know that this area is going to be closed down,

864
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 8: Like there's so sweet that's going to be happening. So

865
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 8: you guys have to be out of here. So that

866
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 8: was what they led with. And then I prompted him

867
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 8: because I was there chatting with one of the guys

868
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 8: that he was talking to, so I prompted him. I

869
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 8: was like, do you have any services to offer? And

870
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 8: then he was like, oh, you can go over to

871
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 8: Saint Vincent de Paul, which is congre Get shelter in

872
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 8: West Oakland with about four and nobody is guaranteed a

873
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 8: spot is just a room full of cots, a lot

874
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,799
Speaker 8: of people refuse to go there because the conditions are

875
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 8: so terrible and they don't feel comfortable or safe sleeping

876
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 8: in a room full of a bunch of strangers with

877
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:14,800
Speaker 8: no kind of security, no guarantee of being able to

878
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:17,319
Speaker 8: hold onto their stuff. People are only allowed to bring

879
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 8: in like a backpack sort of stuff, I'm pretty sure.

880
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 8: And you also have to it's first come, first service.

881
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 8: You have to line up outside every single day, and

882
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 8: you are not guaranteed an indoor place to sleep even

883
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:29,840
Speaker 8: if you line up outside. So what we have is

884
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 8: a situation where the availability of services varies from day

885
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 8: to day. I cannot think of a single sweep in

886
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 8: the last year that I have been to, and I'm

887
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:43,800
Speaker 8: at usually multiple sleeps a week where there were enough

888
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 8: guaranteed spots available for every person being swept. So the

889
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 8: implicit assumption at every single sweep and the Operation Dignity

890
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 8: people know this too, like they know this, the implicit

891
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 8: assumption when they roll up, and the assumption that colors

892
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 8: even the tenor of all of their conversations that they're

893
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:01,879
Speaker 8: having with people, is that the majority of people are

894
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 8: just going to have to figure out how to pack

895
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 8: their shit up and find another.

896
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:04,879
Speaker 4: Place to camp.

897
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 8: It's the assumption, and it's gotten to the point where,

898
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 8: like od employees will roll up and like I said,

899
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 8: they won't even necessarily lead with an offer of services.

900
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 8: They'll lead almost in the hopes that the majority of

901
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 8: people already have a place to relocate. They'll ask do

902
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 8: you have a place to go before they offer services,

903
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:23,919
Speaker 8: or ask if people are entered as services, they'll ask

904
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:25,800
Speaker 8: like do you have another spot to move this stuff first?

905
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 8: Because what they're hoping to do is eliminate as many

906
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 8: people as possible from their list of people that they

907
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 8: feel obligated to offer services too because they know they

908
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 8: don't fucking have anything.

909
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's super important to just emphasize that point.

910
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 1: The city is telling the media, they're telling businesses, anyone

911
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 1: that comes to them with problems related to like hopelessness

912
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:55,760
Speaker 1: or concerns, they're telling them that everyone is being offered

913
00:50:55,840 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 1: shelter and housing and it's just not true. That is

914
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 1: reflective in the city's own publicly available data. So they

915
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:11,320
Speaker 1: actually publish like a list of all of the encampment

916
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 1: suites that they've they do throughout the year, and in

917
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 1: the Commission on homelessness meetings will report back to the

918
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:25,040
Speaker 1: Commission about like service enrollments that they've done through a

919
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 1: certain period of time, and like from May to September

920
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 1: they had enrolled I believe it was sixty people and

921
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:41,840
Speaker 1: to services like non specified services. And during that period

922
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 1: there was approximately eighty sweeps. And if you assume there's

923
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:52,319
Speaker 1: at least five to ten people at every encampment when

924
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 1: they do a sweep, and usually it's more that is

925
00:51:57,239 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 1: like nine percent four point five of people like getting

926
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:08,319
Speaker 1: enrolled into into services, and like of those, maybe a

927
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 1: smaller traction getting into shelter. And when they get into shelter,

928
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 1: they just languish there, right, they aren't connected with case

929
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 1: workers who help them get through this really convoluted coordinated

930
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:30,880
Speaker 1: entry process and like lengthy coordinated entry process, and so

931
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 1: within a few months they're just right back on the street.

932
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 1: You know, it's just ridiculous. And unfortunately, because homeless people

933
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 1: have very little, like I guess you could call it

934
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 1: social capital, you know, the city can get away with

935
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 1: a lot of this stuff they do, like blatantly illegal

936
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 1: things that are against even their own policies, and nothing happens.

937
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 1: And I guess maybe we should back up a little

938
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 1: bit and discuss the city's policy.

939
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:08,919
Speaker 5: It's from second at break and then we will come

940
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 5: back more ads. I don't know by them question mark

941
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 5: we are back. Yeah, so yeah, let's talk about I

942
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 5: think what the city's policies are supposed to be versus

943
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:34,320
Speaker 5: like what they're actually doing on the ground.

944
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 8: Yeah. I mean, their policy is their cover your ass technique, right.

945
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:40,799
Speaker 8: Their policy is what they refer back to whenever they

946
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 8: want to sort of like like Emma said, if they're

947
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 8: interfacing with businesses or house people, you know, and we

948
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 8: have a whole range of house people calling free one one,

949
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 8: which is basically their tip line for like go you

950
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:56,759
Speaker 8: see a homeless person that you don't want to be seen.

951
00:53:57,360 --> 00:53:58,880
Speaker 8: But there's all a range of people. There's people that

952
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:02,319
Speaker 8: are actively malicious and violent, and there's literally people going

953
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 8: out doing vigilanti shit and like destroying almost people's stuff

954
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 8: on their own. And then you also have people that

955
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 8: are well intentioned and really think the city is offering services.

956
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:13,040
Speaker 8: So you have this whole umbrella and the narrative that

957
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 8: the city sells to everybody is bolstered by their policy.

958
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:18,840
Speaker 8: That's the purpose their policy services, not to inform their actions,

959
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:21,799
Speaker 8: but to inform their pr So I think it would

960
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:24,000
Speaker 8: be helpful. Emma, how do you feel about if you

961
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:26,360
Speaker 8: want to kind of give a breakdown of the city's

962
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:28,280
Speaker 8: policy and then I can kind of give a breakdown

963
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:30,240
Speaker 8: into what that translates into on the ground.

964
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:35,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, So this is like, it's kind of a complicated situation.

965
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 1: But the city has what's what they call their Encampment

966
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:47,160
Speaker 1: Management policy, and it was initially passed in I believe

967
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 1: twenty twenty, but it's gone through like several evolutions over

968
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 1: the past ten years or so, and it is related

969
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:03,880
Speaker 1: to different Supreme in Court cases and the settlement that

970
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:10,960
Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier. So this policy, it provides certain very

971
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:16,839
Speaker 1: limited protections for people who are homeless in the city limits.

972
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 1: The city is required by this policy to offer shelter.

973
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 1: I believe it's a week for any person who's subject

974
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 1: to one of their encampment closures. And also we mentioned

975
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:38,920
Speaker 1: the bag intag policy. So if somebody, you know, they

976
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:43,680
Speaker 1: are evicted and they move somewhere outside with the tent,

977
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 1: they bring all of their possessions with them, they are

978
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 1: provided with I believe three foot by three foot like

979
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 1: storage space. And this facility that is super inaccessible and

980
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 1: kind of like, I don't even know if it's actually real,

981
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,560
Speaker 1: to be honest, because it's just like nobody ever. I've

982
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:09,720
Speaker 1: never heard of anybody actually like getting their stuff stored

983
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:14,200
Speaker 1: and getting back. But technically that is a possibility. However,

984
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:15,880
Speaker 1: the city will only hold on to it for so

985
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:19,360
Speaker 1: long before they throw it away. And then the last

986
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:25,440
Speaker 1: protection or provision is the city was until recently supposed

987
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:30,440
Speaker 1: to provide people with shelter. So a few different Supreme

988
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:35,319
Speaker 1: Court cases are behind that provision specifically, and I think

989
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:38,600
Speaker 1: a lot of cities kind of had a similar policy

990
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 1: framework that they were following until the Grant's Pass ruling,

991
00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:46,000
Speaker 1: and I guess maybe we don't need to get into

992
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:50,879
Speaker 1: that too much, but basically, the whole idea of that

993
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 1: policy was like, if somebody is outside the thing outside

994
00:56:56,719 --> 00:57:02,560
Speaker 1: and the city suites them, they have to provide them

995
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:08,000
Speaker 1: with some kind of alternative accommodation, because according to like

996
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:12,759
Speaker 1: the Ninth District Court, it was consideredly cruel and unusual

997
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:19,680
Speaker 1: punishment to penalyze somebody for being homeless without offering them

998
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:24,920
Speaker 1: some kind of temporary like accommodations, And so that was

999
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:32,720
Speaker 1: more or less the city's nominal framework for several years basically,

1000
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:38,440
Speaker 1: and the degree to which they actually followed these policies,

1001
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:44,080
Speaker 1: you know, they really didn't, except for in certain situations

1002
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:49,080
Speaker 1: where there are like, for instance, legal advocates who will

1003
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:54,680
Speaker 1: file injunctions to stop the city from doing a sweep

1004
00:57:55,440 --> 00:58:00,080
Speaker 1: on the basis of like failure to provide an alternative accommodation.

1005
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:07,720
Speaker 1: And typically those arise when there is a very large

1006
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:14,320
Speaker 1: encampment clearing operation that is scheduled and a contentious issue.

1007
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:16,439
Speaker 1: You know, a lot of the time, for instance, they'll

1008
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:22,720
Speaker 1: be people staying on city or like California state land

1009
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:26,520
Speaker 1: and the city will like force them to move because

1010
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:29,880
Speaker 1: of some development project that they're planning to do. And

1011
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:34,080
Speaker 1: so in those situations when the media has kind of

1012
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 1: narrowed their their focus and begun like discussing some of

1013
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:42,680
Speaker 1: this stuff and the local press, then like something like

1014
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:48,400
Speaker 1: that became possible. But after the Grants Past ruling this

1015
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 1: past year, the city was no longer like obligated under

1016
00:58:54,320 --> 00:59:01,440
Speaker 1: federal law to follow those policies, and in September of

1017
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 1: last year, the late mayor Shankal she issued an executive

1018
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:12,680
Speaker 1: order that more or less like just totally rendered that

1019
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 1: policy framework irrelevant. So she put forth a new framework

1020
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:26,040
Speaker 1: that allows the city to sweep encampments under a tiered

1021
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:34,200
Speaker 1: system of what are called emergency suites. So if for instance,

1022
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:41,439
Speaker 1: a encampment is blocking a roadway or a sidewalk, then

1023
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:46,440
Speaker 1: it is a hazard to the public quote unquote, or

1024
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:49,960
Speaker 1: if it's somebody has a tent that is up against

1025
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:53,640
Speaker 1: a building of some sort, it's a fire hazard. And

1026
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:57,520
Speaker 1: so in this tiered system, there's like different levels of

1027
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:01,880
Speaker 1: safety hazards that they're doing. And basically what that looks

1028
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:06,640
Speaker 1: like is like a fire marshal and the city administrator

1029
01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:11,760
Speaker 1: will convene after somebody calls in a complaint about somebody

1030
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:16,160
Speaker 1: that's staying outside by their business. And with the fire

1031
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:18,760
Speaker 1: hazard one, I believe that they can just sweep without

1032
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:23,479
Speaker 1: any prior notice, whereas the other two there is some

1033
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:29,280
Speaker 1: level of notice that they're technically required to provide. But yeah,

1034
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:34,840
Speaker 1: so the shelter provisions and the notice and storage like it,

1035
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:39,320
Speaker 1: they're technically still supposed to follow that by their own

1036
01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:45,440
Speaker 1: city resolution, but there is this provision that like, if

1037
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:51,440
Speaker 1: for instance, they issue somebody like a no or a

1038
01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:55,440
Speaker 1: one hour notice to leave because of like a fire hazard,

1039
01:00:55,520 --> 01:00:58,960
Speaker 1: and like advocates can't make it there because they don't

1040
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:02,440
Speaker 1: really know they know but knows it's happening. Then the

1041
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:07,120
Speaker 1: city can just do that and not offer people anything. Right,

1042
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:12,960
Speaker 1: So these policies have the effect of disempowering our ability

1043
01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 1: to respond to like a scheduled operation, Then the city

1044
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:22,560
Speaker 1: can really just do whatever they want because nobody's watching

1045
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:24,040
Speaker 1: what they're doing.

1046
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:25,920
Speaker 5: And I guess we can. I think we can take

1047
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:30,320
Speaker 5: this here towards something I think probably good to start

1048
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:32,280
Speaker 5: closing on, which is like, what can people actually do

1049
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:32,840
Speaker 5: about this?

1050
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:35,720
Speaker 8: First of all, I think listening to all of this,

1051
01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:37,840
Speaker 8: it can be really easy to feel disempowered and to

1052
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:39,520
Speaker 8: feel like, you know, the walls are closing in and

1053
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:43,640
Speaker 8: there's nothing that we can do. And that remains not

1054
01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:46,320
Speaker 8: the case, you know. I think people should feel empowered

1055
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:50,400
Speaker 8: to be able to physically intervene, because the most effective

1056
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:53,440
Speaker 8: way of physically intervening with this kind of violence is

1057
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:57,760
Speaker 8: to commit to relationship building. Something that I've talked about

1058
01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:01,320
Speaker 8: a lot with sort of like fellow advocates and folks

1059
01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:03,960
Speaker 8: that are kind of involved in like sweeps response and

1060
01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:08,479
Speaker 8: crisis response in Oakland, is that the one thing that

1061
01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:12,160
Speaker 8: the city cannot take away from us, that we have

1062
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 8: an advantage over them in is relationship building. Part of

1063
01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:19,240
Speaker 8: the reason that, for example, the Operation Dignity employees are

1064
01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:21,840
Speaker 8: so inefficient and so you know, seemingly bad at their

1065
01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:23,400
Speaker 8: jobs is not just the fact that they don't have

1066
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:26,080
Speaker 8: anything to offer, but also because everybody on the street

1067
01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:28,360
Speaker 8: knows they're full of shit because they never show up

1068
01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:32,880
Speaker 8: with anything real. And addressing house people in particular right, like,

1069
01:02:33,040 --> 01:02:35,000
Speaker 8: one of the things to get out of is sort

1070
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:37,840
Speaker 8: of like the savior mentality or the guilt mentality of like, oh,

1071
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:39,760
Speaker 8: like I don't have any housing to offer, therefore I

1072
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:41,800
Speaker 8: can't do anything, Like I can't fix the problem, I

1073
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:44,600
Speaker 8: can't fix the roots, so I can't do anything. In reality,

1074
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:48,000
Speaker 8: all you really need to do is to learn to

1075
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:50,960
Speaker 8: set that mentality aside and show up and like start

1076
01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:53,320
Speaker 8: meeting folks where they're at, Start meeting your neighbors where

1077
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:56,120
Speaker 8: they're at, start building relationships. You need to know, like

1078
01:02:56,160 --> 01:03:00,920
Speaker 8: if you live in a particular neighborhood to yourself, I

1079
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:03,400
Speaker 8: need to know that if any un housed person within

1080
01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:07,080
Speaker 8: a mile radius of my home was disappeared, I would

1081
01:03:07,160 --> 01:03:08,880
Speaker 8: need to I would need to know, you know what

1082
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:10,600
Speaker 8: I mean, Like I would want to know if that happens.

1083
01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:12,360
Speaker 8: So if you go out with that understanding that you're

1084
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:16,720
Speaker 8: starting to build lifelong relationships with the folks that are

1085
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:19,160
Speaker 8: living outside in your neighborhood, ideally a lot of other

1086
01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:20,919
Speaker 8: people in your neighborhood too, you know what I mean.

1087
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:26,120
Speaker 8: But like, what they're banking on is right now, while

1088
01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:28,560
Speaker 8: while they're still trying to use a pr cover for

1089
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:31,320
Speaker 8: what they're doing, what they're banking on is people not

1090
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:34,040
Speaker 8: talking to each other, people not finding out about the abuses,

1091
01:03:34,120 --> 01:03:37,000
Speaker 8: people not finding out about the violations, people not being there,

1092
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:43,200
Speaker 8: and people not having relationships that will remain strong even

1093
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:46,960
Speaker 8: as they try to physically scatter people's communities. And what

1094
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:50,200
Speaker 8: you can do to start is start investing in those relationships.

1095
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:52,600
Speaker 8: Make sure you know what people's names are, make sure

1096
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:56,040
Speaker 8: you would know if somebody's routine was suddenly disrupted. Hey,

1097
01:03:56,080 --> 01:03:59,320
Speaker 8: Becky used to be on that corner, you know, every

1098
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:01,200
Speaker 8: couple days of weekend. Now I never see him anymore?

1099
01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:03,479
Speaker 8: What happened to him? And I think you can start there,

1100
01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:05,680
Speaker 8: and there's much more that you can concretely do. I mean,

1101
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:07,840
Speaker 8: one of the ways that I'm accustomed to showing up

1102
01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:11,160
Speaker 8: at this point is direct on the ground sweep's response.

1103
01:04:11,320 --> 01:04:13,920
Speaker 8: So we're still able to keep track currently of what

1104
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:16,280
Speaker 8: their schedule is on a weekly basis more or less

1105
01:04:16,280 --> 01:04:18,680
Speaker 8: Like there's definitely operations we don't find out about until

1106
01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:21,240
Speaker 8: after the fact, but the majority of their weekday operations

1107
01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:23,880
Speaker 8: we do still know about ahead of time, and so

1108
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:26,200
Speaker 8: we'll show up. We'll make sure we get there before

1109
01:04:26,200 --> 01:04:28,560
Speaker 8: the city does, so like by eight am ideally right,

1110
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:30,360
Speaker 8: Like we show up, talk to people, will be like

1111
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:32,760
Speaker 8: what do you need? Do you need physical help moving

1112
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:35,160
Speaker 8: your belongings out of the eviction zone. Do you need

1113
01:04:35,680 --> 01:04:37,600
Speaker 8: to borrow somebody's phone so that you can call somebody

1114
01:04:37,640 --> 01:04:39,040
Speaker 8: who said they were going to come help you. Do

1115
01:04:39,080 --> 01:04:41,920
Speaker 8: you need help pushing or pulling your vehicle? Any number

1116
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:44,360
Speaker 8: of things really, but just like being willing to show

1117
01:04:44,440 --> 01:04:47,680
Speaker 8: up and ask questions about necessarily knowing what answers you're

1118
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:50,400
Speaker 8: going to get, and being down to follow up and

1119
01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:52,640
Speaker 8: like do aftercare with people and chicken on folks and

1120
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:55,120
Speaker 8: like keep building those relationships. I think that those are

1121
01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:57,400
Speaker 8: the building blocks of the organizing that we're going to

1122
01:04:57,480 --> 01:04:59,680
Speaker 8: need to be doing in the future, because you know,

1123
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:01,280
Speaker 8: what this he is counting on is that they're going

1124
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:04,120
Speaker 8: to be able to successfully create a scapegoat. Right. They

1125
01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:07,080
Speaker 8: want to create like a faceless, nameless mass of people

1126
01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:09,080
Speaker 8: that they can pin all their problems on and then

1127
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:12,200
Speaker 8: incarce rate. And the best thing that we can do

1128
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:14,400
Speaker 8: is make sure that they can't successfully do that, because

1129
01:05:14,400 --> 01:05:16,080
Speaker 8: we all have relationships to each other.

1130
01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:21,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, I really appreciate those sentiments. Yet, and I think

1131
01:05:22,040 --> 01:05:27,720
Speaker 1: like the Oakland like advocates doing like eviction defense for

1132
01:05:27,960 --> 01:05:32,880
Speaker 1: people who are living outside. It's grown in size and

1133
01:05:33,040 --> 01:05:38,080
Speaker 1: like capacity quite a bit in the past year, and

1134
01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:42,160
Speaker 1: like the city has noticed that, so they've actually like

1135
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:47,480
Speaker 1: they've passed various resolutions and honestly, a lot of their

1136
01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:53,320
Speaker 1: practices and their policies, like their encampment management team, they

1137
01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 1: seem to be like responding to the increasing effectiveness of

1138
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:06,320
Speaker 1: this response, just like network of community defense. And so

1139
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:08,720
Speaker 1: I think that like all of those things are are

1140
01:06:08,840 --> 01:06:16,480
Speaker 1: so important, especially as the term regime starts to eliminate

1141
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:21,680
Speaker 1: the very like modest social safety net that there was.

1142
01:06:22,320 --> 01:06:26,120
Speaker 1: And you know, before we end this conversation, I just

1143
01:06:26,200 --> 01:06:31,280
Speaker 1: want to emphasize that in Oakland, like a majority of

1144
01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:38,640
Speaker 1: the people who are homeless and are subject to state violence.

1145
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:45,360
Speaker 1: They are non white, mostly black, and are homeless in

1146
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:51,440
Speaker 1: neighborhoods where they used to be housed. And so the

1147
01:06:51,480 --> 01:06:56,520
Speaker 1: gentrification that has happened, particularly in like West Oakland, and

1148
01:06:56,880 --> 01:07:03,680
Speaker 1: the like influx of high end tech workers that displaced

1149
01:07:03,720 --> 01:07:09,000
Speaker 1: them and moved into their family homes, they are the

1150
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:13,040
Speaker 1: same people who are calling three one one to push

1151
01:07:13,120 --> 01:07:16,520
Speaker 1: the city to displace them again, but from a tent

1152
01:07:16,920 --> 01:07:20,280
Speaker 1: or a car this time. And I think it's it's

1153
01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:25,920
Speaker 1: just so so important that particularly like housed people try

1154
01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:31,680
Speaker 1: to tap into the networks of community defense that exist

1155
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:35,920
Speaker 1: in their areas. I'm sure that most cities probably have

1156
01:07:36,200 --> 01:07:42,880
Speaker 1: something comparable to Oakland, but with the measures that we're seeing,

1157
01:07:43,040 --> 01:07:47,880
Speaker 1: cities begin to take, such as in Fremont, which is

1158
01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:53,520
Speaker 1: about thirty minutes south of Oakland, where they basically banned

1159
01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:59,760
Speaker 1: or criminalized mutual aid with unhoused people. So you can

1160
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:04,040
Speaker 1: get one thousand dollars fine or for six months in

1161
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:10,680
Speaker 1: jail for dating and a betting a homeless person. And

1162
01:08:10,960 --> 01:08:12,880
Speaker 1: you know, it's an extremely vague.

1163
01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:16,559
Speaker 8: Law, so like giving someone a blanket could fall under this,

1164
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:18,479
Speaker 8: so you could be fined or put in jail for

1165
01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:21,719
Speaker 8: giving an unhouse personal blanket and free month currently.

1166
01:08:22,040 --> 01:08:26,920
Speaker 1: So it's very important that people try to be aware

1167
01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:31,879
Speaker 1: of their city government, how they're maybe passing anti homeless

1168
01:08:31,960 --> 01:08:37,280
Speaker 1: measures and they're in their cities and trying to mobilize

1169
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:39,919
Speaker 1: against against that from happening.

1170
01:08:40,600 --> 01:08:42,160
Speaker 8: I also have one more thing to add to that.

1171
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:46,559
Speaker 8: I'm so sorry, just specifically for anybody, for anybody thinking

1172
01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:52,320
Speaker 8: about getting involved or organizing strategically around community defense, sweep defense,

1173
01:08:53,080 --> 01:08:56,240
Speaker 8: whatever that looks like in your particular area, I would say,

1174
01:08:56,520 --> 01:08:58,760
Speaker 8: first of all, especially if you're a house person in

1175
01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:02,880
Speaker 8: this case, like invest valuable time into getting to know

1176
01:09:02,920 --> 01:09:05,400
Speaker 8: people on an interpersonal level and getting to know people's

1177
01:09:05,400 --> 01:09:07,559
Speaker 8: needs first, instead of falling into the trap of sort

1178
01:09:07,600 --> 01:09:10,360
Speaker 8: of imposing what you might have learned through like other

1179
01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:13,760
Speaker 8: sort of direct action organizing, because this is not that

1180
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:16,439
Speaker 8: you know, like I think, yeah, first of all, just

1181
01:09:16,479 --> 01:09:19,160
Speaker 8: making sure that you're being you're organizing is being led

1182
01:09:19,240 --> 01:09:22,360
Speaker 8: by the needs of you know, homemost residents that are

1183
01:09:22,360 --> 01:09:24,400
Speaker 8: expressing what they need to you. But also on top

1184
01:09:24,439 --> 01:09:27,880
Speaker 8: of that, when it comes to this particular draconian waves

1185
01:09:27,920 --> 01:09:30,839
Speaker 8: of legislation that are being passed around like anti homeless

1186
01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:34,600
Speaker 8: laws and stuff. Don't preemptively obey, you know what I mean, Like,

1187
01:09:34,680 --> 01:09:36,880
Speaker 8: if you live in Fremont, don't preemptively say, oh fuck,

1188
01:09:36,920 --> 01:09:39,519
Speaker 8: I better stop passing out blankets. Because what we've seen

1189
01:09:39,560 --> 01:09:43,679
Speaker 8: in Oakland with the particular iterations of anti homeless legislation

1190
01:09:43,760 --> 01:09:45,960
Speaker 8: that they've passed here is that just because they've passed

1191
01:09:46,040 --> 01:09:48,920
Speaker 8: legislation doesn't mean that they feel confident enforcing it yet.

1192
01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:52,120
Speaker 8: And what you need to do really is step up

1193
01:09:52,200 --> 01:09:55,160
Speaker 8: real hard and show them you can't enforce this the

1194
01:09:55,160 --> 01:09:57,320
Speaker 8: way that you want to, and they're going to push back.

1195
01:09:57,360 --> 01:09:59,320
Speaker 8: There's going to be this back and forth interplay that

1196
01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:01,560
Speaker 8: we've seen, you know, for example in Oakland with the

1197
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:03,760
Speaker 8: safe works and ordinance, which we can probably get into

1198
01:10:03,800 --> 01:10:06,040
Speaker 8: another time because it's way too much to get into

1199
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:08,280
Speaker 8: right now, I think at this point in the episode.

1200
01:10:08,320 --> 01:10:11,160
Speaker 8: But it's a two way street. It's this fight that

1201
01:10:11,200 --> 01:10:13,400
Speaker 8: you have to play to show them just because you've

1202
01:10:13,400 --> 01:10:15,880
Speaker 8: passed this legislation doesn't mean you can enforce it in

1203
01:10:15,920 --> 01:10:18,479
Speaker 8: a particular way. You have to give them something to

1204
01:10:18,520 --> 01:10:20,559
Speaker 8: fight against, you know what I mean. So that's just

1205
01:10:20,600 --> 01:10:22,600
Speaker 8: the other piece, yeah.

1206
01:10:22,240 --> 01:10:24,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, and like and the rest of their policy is

1207
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:27,840
Speaker 5: absolutely one hundred percent evidence that if the state doesn't

1208
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:30,080
Speaker 5: want to follow the law, it isn't real. But that

1209
01:10:30,160 --> 01:10:32,760
Speaker 5: also means that, like, if they can't enforce a law

1210
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:35,640
Speaker 5: like it also effectively ceases to exist. That's just the

1211
01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:36,880
Speaker 5: sort of balance of forces here.

1212
01:10:36,960 --> 01:10:40,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And there is a lawsuit currently against that,

1213
01:10:41,080 --> 01:10:44,640
Speaker 1: and it sounds like, you know, the City of Fremont

1214
01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:48,280
Speaker 1: is probably going to be removing that aiding in a

1215
01:10:48,360 --> 01:10:55,240
Speaker 1: betting clause from the resolution, but because that specific provision

1216
01:10:55,880 --> 01:10:59,080
Speaker 1: is actually like in the city's municipal code as a

1217
01:10:59,120 --> 01:11:03,640
Speaker 1: general provision provision, so you know, even if they do

1218
01:11:03,760 --> 01:11:08,200
Speaker 1: remove it, charges could still be brought against somebody. So like,

1219
01:11:08,360 --> 01:11:12,639
Speaker 1: really the entire ordinance needs to be eliminated all together.

1220
01:11:13,439 --> 01:11:15,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, I guess do you have anything else that you

1221
01:11:15,840 --> 01:11:18,280
Speaker 5: want to make sure that you get in before we

1222
01:11:18,479 --> 01:11:18,960
Speaker 5: close up?

1223
01:11:20,360 --> 01:11:23,800
Speaker 1: I don't think so, not nothing that comes to mind.

1224
01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:26,400
Speaker 1: But yeah, again, I super appreciate you having us on

1225
01:11:26,600 --> 01:11:30,960
Speaker 1: to talk about this. Yeah, you know, shit is rough

1226
01:11:31,040 --> 01:11:35,080
Speaker 1: right now. I think for me personally, it's been really

1227
01:11:35,120 --> 01:11:42,160
Speaker 1: helpful to direct my energy towards things in my social

1228
01:11:42,200 --> 01:11:46,439
Speaker 1: network in a way that's like constructive and helpful to others.

1229
01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:52,479
Speaker 1: So I would definitely suggest if you're feeling like any

1230
01:11:52,600 --> 01:11:58,240
Speaker 1: despair or like worried about becoming like black pilled or whatever, like, yeah,

1231
01:11:58,400 --> 01:12:01,559
Speaker 1: just try to tap in and focus on things that

1232
01:12:01,600 --> 01:12:06,320
Speaker 1: are happening in your community. It's good for you and

1233
01:12:06,360 --> 01:12:09,560
Speaker 1: it's good for the people in your community.

1234
01:12:09,920 --> 01:12:13,960
Speaker 8: Yeah, just seconding that, I think like being able to

1235
01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:17,879
Speaker 8: tap in specifically with like the types of unhoused organizing

1236
01:12:17,920 --> 01:12:21,280
Speaker 8: and underground economies that exist wherever unhoused people exist, and

1237
01:12:21,400 --> 01:12:24,880
Speaker 8: like being able to like tap into that and like

1238
01:12:25,560 --> 01:12:27,439
Speaker 8: you know, again like speaking from the perspective of a

1239
01:12:27,439 --> 01:12:29,760
Speaker 8: house person, like really humble yourself and learn from that.

1240
01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:32,759
Speaker 8: Like you're going to learn a whole lot more relevant

1241
01:12:32,760 --> 01:12:36,080
Speaker 8: life skills just hanging out in social settings with people

1242
01:12:36,120 --> 01:12:38,000
Speaker 8: in the street than you are in any other area

1243
01:12:38,040 --> 01:12:40,439
Speaker 8: of your life. So just go balls to the wall,

1244
01:12:40,520 --> 01:12:42,799
Speaker 8: just start hanging out, just like spend all your time loitering,

1245
01:12:42,880 --> 01:12:44,840
Speaker 8: Like just that's that's where we need to be right now.

1246
01:12:44,920 --> 01:12:47,320
Speaker 8: Is loitering in the street. That's where the organizing is happening.

1247
01:12:47,520 --> 01:12:52,439
Speaker 1: So yeah, street claim space, Oh yeah, this.

1248
01:12:52,400 --> 01:12:54,760
Speaker 5: Has been ni could happen here. Go loiter on street

1249
01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:57,599
Speaker 5: quarters and make the state's life miserable until it cannot

1250
01:12:57,960 --> 01:12:59,320
Speaker 5: do the things that is doing right now.

1251
01:13:20,040 --> 01:13:23,599
Speaker 2: Oh, welcome to it could happen here, a podcast about

1252
01:13:23,600 --> 01:13:26,920
Speaker 2: how it's happened here and it continues to happen here.

1253
01:13:27,640 --> 01:13:30,479
Speaker 2: Sorry about that, but we're not changing the name of

1254
01:13:30,520 --> 01:13:35,000
Speaker 2: the podcast, you know, because we're not anyway. I got

1255
01:13:35,080 --> 01:13:37,120
Speaker 2: Jams stout with me, I got Garrison Davis with me.

1256
01:13:37,720 --> 01:13:39,280
Speaker 3: Woot woot, huzzah.

1257
01:13:40,400 --> 01:13:44,760
Speaker 4: So the past few weeks, myself is as well as

1258
01:13:44,920 --> 01:13:48,479
Speaker 4: probably everyone else on this call, has been getting a

1259
01:13:48,479 --> 01:13:52,920
Speaker 4: lot of questions from listeners via the various social media

1260
01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:57,280
Speaker 4: apps that we damage ourselves by logging into on a

1261
01:13:57,600 --> 01:14:02,080
Speaker 4: much more than needed frequent basis. But one question that's

1262
01:14:02,120 --> 01:14:04,120
Speaker 4: been kind of on a lot of people's minds and

1263
01:14:04,160 --> 01:14:07,720
Speaker 4: something that we've been discussing as like a group, is

1264
01:14:07,880 --> 01:14:11,680
Speaker 4: the idea of should you flee the country?

1265
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:12,800
Speaker 5: Is the party over?

1266
01:14:13,000 --> 01:14:15,719
Speaker 4: Do we need to use the time we have now

1267
01:14:16,160 --> 01:14:20,599
Speaker 4: to get out? The Trump administration is cracking down on

1268
01:14:21,200 --> 01:14:25,240
Speaker 4: a whole bunch of groups of already marginalized people, people

1269
01:14:25,280 --> 01:14:29,840
Speaker 4: with fewer resources, immigrants, people who are here for asylum,

1270
01:14:30,479 --> 01:14:34,599
Speaker 4: trans people, queer people in general. It's getting pretty scary

1271
01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:40,479
Speaker 4: out there, and the thought crosses your mind, maybe there's

1272
01:14:40,479 --> 01:14:44,320
Speaker 4: somewhere else that's better. And this has always been a

1273
01:14:44,360 --> 01:14:47,080
Speaker 4: tough question for us to kind of think about because

1274
01:14:47,560 --> 01:14:50,360
Speaker 4: we don't want to like inspire panic. That's not the

1275
01:14:50,439 --> 01:14:52,320
Speaker 4: purpose of what we do here.

1276
01:14:52,720 --> 01:14:55,280
Speaker 2: You should try to spread calm when times are bad

1277
01:14:55,320 --> 01:14:56,360
Speaker 2: if you can here.

1278
01:14:56,800 --> 01:15:00,720
Speaker 4: But the situation politically in the country and in many

1279
01:15:00,760 --> 01:15:03,680
Speaker 4: parts of the world right now is extremely fraud and

1280
01:15:03,840 --> 01:15:08,240
Speaker 4: it does feel how closer towards like the bad nightmare

1281
01:15:08,280 --> 01:15:11,320
Speaker 4: scenario than kind of I've ever thought it has before.

1282
01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:13,920
Speaker 4: So it's so.

1283
01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:15,000
Speaker 5: It's a really tough question.

1284
01:15:15,520 --> 01:15:17,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think what we're going to be doing

1285
01:15:17,360 --> 01:15:19,960
Speaker 4: this episode is just kind of talking about this question

1286
01:15:20,439 --> 01:15:24,280
Speaker 4: and our thoughts around, you know, various responses to this

1287
01:15:24,320 --> 01:15:26,880
Speaker 4: line of thought, And I guess Robert kind of has

1288
01:15:26,960 --> 01:15:32,960
Speaker 4: a baseline like, kind of quasi answer that I think

1289
01:15:33,000 --> 01:15:34,679
Speaker 4: we can use as a jumping off point.

1290
01:15:35,640 --> 01:15:39,519
Speaker 2: You know, if you're someone who is being targeted, you know,

1291
01:15:39,720 --> 01:15:42,080
Speaker 2: or in a community of people who are being targeted,

1292
01:15:42,520 --> 01:15:46,200
Speaker 2: you know, you're a naturalized citizen, your hair on a

1293
01:15:46,240 --> 01:15:50,800
Speaker 2: green card, you're trans, you're any kind any of the

1294
01:15:50,800 --> 01:15:53,679
Speaker 2: many different groups of people that are being targeted right now.

1295
01:15:54,360 --> 01:15:57,599
Speaker 2: And you have the opportunity to leave and you think

1296
01:15:57,600 --> 01:16:00,000
Speaker 2: that that's the right thing for you, and you should

1297
01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:01,640
Speaker 2: do it. You shouldn't feel bad about it. You know,

1298
01:16:02,200 --> 01:16:04,559
Speaker 2: if you've got a job that is in demand in

1299
01:16:04,600 --> 01:16:08,559
Speaker 2: other countries and you know the process and can start

1300
01:16:08,600 --> 01:16:12,240
Speaker 2: the process to like get residency somewhere else and work

1301
01:16:12,479 --> 01:16:15,559
Speaker 2: somewhere else, and you know, make your life work that way,

1302
01:16:15,960 --> 01:16:18,000
Speaker 2: then I don't think you should feel bad about doing that.

1303
01:16:18,080 --> 01:16:20,240
Speaker 2: If that's what you decide is the right thing for you.

1304
01:16:21,000 --> 01:16:24,160
Speaker 2: That said, it's not, it's just simply not going to

1305
01:16:24,160 --> 01:16:27,880
Speaker 2: be a realistic possibility for most people. What is more

1306
01:16:27,920 --> 01:16:31,080
Speaker 2: realistic for a lot of people is, for example, moving

1307
01:16:31,080 --> 01:16:34,360
Speaker 2: from states where the risk is higher to states where

1308
01:16:34,400 --> 01:16:36,840
Speaker 2: maybe the risk is lower. Hard to say how long

1309
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:39,439
Speaker 2: the risk will be lower, you know, but I, you know,

1310
01:16:39,479 --> 01:16:42,240
Speaker 2: I certainly that's more achievable for a lot of people

1311
01:16:42,280 --> 01:16:44,719
Speaker 2: than getting set up in a foreign country, as James

1312
01:16:44,760 --> 01:16:47,320
Speaker 2: will talk about, if your hope is just I'm going

1313
01:16:47,400 --> 01:16:49,759
Speaker 2: to try to go somewhere else like Europe or whatever

1314
01:16:49,840 --> 01:16:52,720
Speaker 2: as an asylum seeker. As again, James will go into

1315
01:16:52,720 --> 01:16:55,479
Speaker 2: more detail on life ain't easy for asylum seekers, and

1316
01:16:55,520 --> 01:16:58,640
Speaker 2: that's not really again, it may not be nearly as

1317
01:16:58,720 --> 01:17:00,719
Speaker 2: much of an option as you think that is right now,

1318
01:17:01,120 --> 01:17:03,240
Speaker 2: I you know, had to go through kind of my

1319
01:17:03,280 --> 01:17:05,680
Speaker 2: own process after the election of like, well, am I

1320
01:17:05,720 --> 01:17:09,320
Speaker 2: going to like, you know, get my finances in order

1321
01:17:09,360 --> 01:17:12,599
Speaker 2: and move to another country and basically try to like

1322
01:17:13,360 --> 01:17:16,080
Speaker 2: pay my way into getting a visa somewhere like in Spain,

1323
01:17:16,160 --> 01:17:18,880
Speaker 2: which is an option for someone like me. And I

1324
01:17:19,120 --> 01:17:21,559
Speaker 2: came to the conclusion that like, nah, you know, if

1325
01:17:21,600 --> 01:17:24,080
Speaker 2: the worst case thing happens, I'd rather like die here

1326
01:17:24,360 --> 01:17:28,520
Speaker 2: or whatever. It's just not worth it, you know, to

1327
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:31,280
Speaker 2: try to get out. So I'm committing to trying to

1328
01:17:31,360 --> 01:17:33,960
Speaker 2: like hold the line here with everybody basically that I

1329
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:35,640
Speaker 2: love in the world, because like what else are you

1330
01:17:35,680 --> 01:17:36,320
Speaker 2: going to do? You know?

1331
01:17:36,920 --> 01:17:40,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I will just say that, you know, I

1332
01:17:40,240 --> 01:17:42,720
Speaker 3: probably have met more asylum seekers than most people, you know,

1333
01:17:43,160 --> 01:17:46,200
Speaker 3: and it is one of the more miserable fates available

1334
01:17:46,360 --> 01:17:49,800
Speaker 3: to a human. It will if large numbers of people

1335
01:17:49,840 --> 01:17:52,760
Speaker 3: start leaving the US, only get worse. If you're someone

1336
01:17:52,800 --> 01:17:58,080
Speaker 3: who's a US citizen, you have probably not experienced much

1337
01:17:58,120 --> 01:18:01,080
Speaker 3: in the way of like strict immigration enforcement. If you

1338
01:18:01,080 --> 01:18:02,920
Speaker 3: have traveled around the world, right, you have one of

1339
01:18:02,920 --> 01:18:05,720
Speaker 3: the more high value passports in the world. You can

1340
01:18:05,840 --> 01:18:08,439
Speaker 3: you can go almost anywhere with a visa or in

1341
01:18:08,479 --> 01:18:13,040
Speaker 3: many cases without a visa. Seeking asylum is an extremely

1342
01:18:13,360 --> 01:18:16,479
Speaker 3: different process. If you think you're just going to get

1343
01:18:16,479 --> 01:18:20,519
Speaker 3: on a flight and leave and stay somewhere, like understand

1344
01:18:20,520 --> 01:18:24,160
Speaker 3: that many countries will probably begin to require reciprocal visas

1345
01:18:24,160 --> 01:18:27,280
Speaker 3: with the United States soon if we continue our current

1346
01:18:27,320 --> 01:18:31,800
Speaker 3: sort of pathway with by more isolationist immigration policy, and

1347
01:18:31,840 --> 01:18:33,800
Speaker 3: then you'll have to get that visa. And then you know,

1348
01:18:33,800 --> 01:18:37,880
Speaker 3: if you overstay, you will be subject to enforcement. The

1349
01:18:37,920 --> 01:18:41,360
Speaker 3: sense of permanence that you enjoy here might never be

1350
01:18:41,520 --> 01:18:45,439
Speaker 3: something you enjoy again. And that's just if you're able

1351
01:18:45,520 --> 01:18:48,960
Speaker 3: to fly somewhere, and so you try and overstay a

1352
01:18:49,040 --> 01:18:51,600
Speaker 3: visa or you try and apply for asylum. I have

1353
01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:54,760
Speaker 3: people I've met in every facet of my life, Like

1354
01:18:54,800 --> 01:18:56,799
Speaker 3: I know guys who I met as a bike racer

1355
01:18:56,920 --> 01:18:58,920
Speaker 3: who have applied for asylum. Guys I met a bike

1356
01:18:58,960 --> 01:19:02,160
Speaker 3: racer are staying on that bus in the UK. It

1357
01:19:02,200 --> 01:19:06,559
Speaker 3: is it is a miserable fate. And I think that's

1358
01:19:06,600 --> 01:19:08,760
Speaker 3: that I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying that

1359
01:19:09,520 --> 01:19:12,360
Speaker 3: you need to understand that it is highly unpleasant and

1360
01:19:12,400 --> 01:19:15,719
Speaker 3: it's tripped you of all dignity and in some places

1361
01:19:15,760 --> 01:19:19,360
Speaker 3: extists people of of like their lives right, people die migrating.

1362
01:19:20,040 --> 01:19:24,320
Speaker 3: It's also like incredibly expensive to do the things that

1363
01:19:24,439 --> 01:19:26,800
Speaker 3: migrants do because that everyone is trying to make a

1364
01:19:26,840 --> 01:19:27,439
Speaker 3: buck off them.

1365
01:19:27,600 --> 01:19:27,760
Speaker 2: Right.

1366
01:19:28,080 --> 01:19:30,720
Speaker 3: I was just talking on another podcast about how the

1367
01:19:30,880 --> 01:19:32,960
Speaker 3: journey that people took up through the Darien Gap who

1368
01:19:32,960 --> 01:19:34,320
Speaker 3: tried to come to the United States, it would have

1369
01:19:34,320 --> 01:19:36,320
Speaker 3: cost them way less just to fly, but they couldn't.

1370
01:19:36,400 --> 01:19:39,000
Speaker 3: They couldn't get the visas. Right. That doesn't mean like

1371
01:19:39,040 --> 01:19:41,400
Speaker 3: if you know, if you have a historical right to

1372
01:19:41,479 --> 01:19:46,040
Speaker 3: citizenship through various you know, certain people have rights to

1373
01:19:46,080 --> 01:19:50,639
Speaker 3: Spanish citizenship, or German citizenship or Irish. Irish is one

1374
01:19:50,680 --> 01:19:53,599
Speaker 3: that many people have access to. Yeah, why not? Why not?

1375
01:19:53,920 --> 01:19:56,040
Speaker 3: You know, if you have the financial resources, when not

1376
01:19:56,080 --> 01:19:57,719
Speaker 3: try and see where that will go? Why not begin

1377
01:19:57,840 --> 01:19:58,960
Speaker 3: pursuing that totally?

1378
01:19:59,080 --> 01:19:59,439
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1379
01:19:59,760 --> 01:20:02,920
Speaker 4: Sure, I think becoming a dual citizen, if you have

1380
01:20:03,479 --> 01:20:07,479
Speaker 4: the capability to, is a fantastic idea that I will

1381
01:20:07,520 --> 01:20:09,320
Speaker 4: like never dissuade someone from.

1382
01:20:09,680 --> 01:20:09,760
Speaker 1: No.

1383
01:20:10,160 --> 01:20:11,479
Speaker 2: I would go so far as to say, even if

1384
01:20:11,520 --> 01:20:13,280
Speaker 2: you plan to stay here. If you have the ability

1385
01:20:13,320 --> 01:20:17,720
Speaker 2: to get dual citizenship, you should be pursuing that right now, absolutely, Like.

1386
01:20:18,120 --> 01:20:19,200
Speaker 5: Is it's something that you should do.

1387
01:20:19,240 --> 01:20:24,599
Speaker 3: It's often not hideously expensive, and it's something that might

1388
01:20:25,200 --> 01:20:27,920
Speaker 3: be Yeah, you have options, and options are good.

1389
01:20:28,320 --> 01:20:28,559
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1390
01:20:28,600 --> 01:20:32,920
Speaker 4: I am very hesitant to like openly call for like

1391
01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:34,599
Speaker 4: now is the time to leave the country. I do

1392
01:20:34,600 --> 01:20:38,120
Speaker 4: not feel comfortable saying that for a number of reasons,

1393
01:20:38,439 --> 01:20:40,519
Speaker 4: like some of them are or more political, as in

1394
01:20:40,560 --> 01:20:43,680
Speaker 4: like I don't really subscribe to a politics of escape,

1395
01:20:44,280 --> 01:20:46,759
Speaker 4: even the idea of like fleeing states.

1396
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:48,320
Speaker 5: I feel a little bit iffy about.

1397
01:20:48,400 --> 01:20:50,679
Speaker 4: Now. There's certainly, you know a lot of cases where

1398
01:20:50,720 --> 01:20:53,640
Speaker 4: families are trying to move, you know, outside states that

1399
01:20:53,720 --> 01:20:57,320
Speaker 4: have more restricted access to trans healthcare for minors towards

1400
01:20:57,320 --> 01:21:00,120
Speaker 4: more friendly states, which I totally understand.

1401
01:21:00,479 --> 01:21:03,760
Speaker 5: But I have greatly enjoyed getting.

1402
01:21:03,439 --> 01:21:05,920
Speaker 4: To know a whole bunch of trans people in the South,

1403
01:21:06,160 --> 01:21:08,680
Speaker 4: and a whole bunch of trans people here are not

1404
01:21:09,240 --> 01:21:12,519
Speaker 4: willing to leave their home. This is this is their

1405
01:21:12,520 --> 01:21:14,280
Speaker 4: home and it always will be and they're going to

1406
01:21:14,320 --> 01:21:18,400
Speaker 4: stay and fight for it even as things get you know, harder,

1407
01:21:18,920 --> 01:21:20,800
Speaker 4: And I don't think you should write these people off.

1408
01:21:20,840 --> 01:21:22,960
Speaker 4: I don't think you should write these places off. These

1409
01:21:23,040 --> 01:21:26,880
Speaker 4: these places are still a terrain of battle, and there

1410
01:21:26,880 --> 01:21:28,639
Speaker 4: are going to be places where trans people can still

1411
01:21:28,680 --> 01:21:32,280
Speaker 4: live and still live fulfilling lives in many cases. And

1412
01:21:32,479 --> 01:21:34,960
Speaker 4: that is that it's worth acknowledging, that's worth putting effort into.

1413
01:21:35,560 --> 01:21:38,400
Speaker 4: To the point that, like after the election, I was

1414
01:21:38,439 --> 01:21:41,760
Speaker 4: already considering maybe, you know, trying to travel around the

1415
01:21:41,760 --> 01:21:45,160
Speaker 4: country some more, And after this last election, my line

1416
01:21:45,160 --> 01:21:47,479
Speaker 4: of thought was way more on the side of I

1417
01:21:47,520 --> 01:21:49,799
Speaker 4: would actually like to spend as much time in Georgia

1418
01:21:49,880 --> 01:21:52,439
Speaker 4: as possible. I would actually want to stay in this

1419
01:21:52,560 --> 01:21:56,080
Speaker 4: South for as much as I can, because this is

1420
01:21:56,120 --> 01:21:58,680
Speaker 4: like not a place that I think people should be

1421
01:21:58,720 --> 01:22:01,559
Speaker 4: walking away from. And in some ways that does come

1422
01:22:01,600 --> 01:22:04,599
Speaker 4: from like a slightly privileged point of view for multiple reasons.

1423
01:22:05,040 --> 01:22:07,640
Speaker 4: As someone who's white and holds a Canadian passport as

1424
01:22:07,680 --> 01:22:10,960
Speaker 4: well as an American passport, that is, you know, something

1425
01:22:11,080 --> 01:22:14,280
Speaker 4: that I like to have as a back pocket option.

1426
01:22:14,600 --> 01:22:17,000
Speaker 4: But that's something I'm not like considering like at all,

1427
01:22:17,080 --> 01:22:19,760
Speaker 4: Like I do not want to move to Canada. All

1428
01:22:19,800 --> 01:22:22,280
Speaker 4: my friends are here, my life is here. There's certain

1429
01:22:22,280 --> 01:22:25,280
Speaker 4: scenarios where things get much much much worse, even though

1430
01:22:25,320 --> 01:22:27,400
Speaker 4: things are already getting quite bad, But there are certain

1431
01:22:27,400 --> 01:22:31,240
Speaker 4: scenarios where, yes, that passport will come in handy. And

1432
01:22:31,240 --> 01:22:34,240
Speaker 4: that's why I do encourage, like, no matter what you

1433
01:22:34,240 --> 01:22:36,200
Speaker 4: should you should see if you have any options to

1434
01:22:36,479 --> 01:22:39,200
Speaker 4: become a citizen in more than one country. It is

1435
01:22:39,240 --> 01:22:41,479
Speaker 4: a great thing to be. It's it's good to not

1436
01:22:41,520 --> 01:22:44,400
Speaker 4: be just tied down to one place. But the process

1437
01:22:44,439 --> 01:22:47,160
Speaker 4: of trying to to you know, immigrate somewhere where you

1438
01:22:47,200 --> 01:22:51,080
Speaker 4: do not have a citizenship is already quite challenging. And

1439
01:22:51,160 --> 01:22:53,719
Speaker 4: we will probably discuss some some more of this later

1440
01:22:54,080 --> 01:22:56,320
Speaker 4: because I think there's also a sort of like onion

1441
01:22:56,400 --> 01:22:59,439
Speaker 4: of a threat of people when you're when you're thinking

1442
01:22:59,479 --> 01:23:02,519
Speaker 4: of this question and like which people will will be

1443
01:23:02,840 --> 01:23:05,720
Speaker 4: or are currently being targeted the most, and how that

1444
01:23:05,800 --> 01:23:08,560
Speaker 4: kind of affects the options in terms of like relocation

1445
01:23:09,040 --> 01:23:12,600
Speaker 4: to places view it as like safer havens. And I

1446
01:23:12,720 --> 01:23:17,720
Speaker 4: like to jumpstart that onion of protection discussion. After these messages,

1447
01:23:27,960 --> 01:23:28,880
Speaker 4: we're back.

1448
01:23:28,600 --> 01:23:31,479
Speaker 2: And we're talking about onions which you need to wear

1449
01:23:31,479 --> 01:23:34,439
Speaker 2: around your neck to protect you from evil spirit scarce,

1450
01:23:34,439 --> 01:23:36,080
Speaker 2: And that's what you were getting at, right, Yes.

1451
01:23:36,280 --> 01:23:39,559
Speaker 3: Une move on to the next.

1452
01:23:39,320 --> 01:23:44,160
Speaker 4: Topic where five different onions to drive away the various

1453
01:23:44,200 --> 01:23:48,280
Speaker 4: secret police forces trying to hunt down individuals. Yes, speaking

1454
01:23:48,360 --> 01:23:50,880
Speaker 4: of I guess like the big thing I'm thinking about

1455
01:23:50,960 --> 01:23:54,679
Speaker 4: right now, or one of some big things, is there's

1456
01:23:54,720 --> 01:23:58,320
Speaker 4: different levels of scrutiny being placed on individuals currently in

1457
01:23:58,360 --> 01:24:00,800
Speaker 4: the United States. One you have like people who are

1458
01:24:00,800 --> 01:24:04,360
Speaker 4: completely undocumented, right. You have people who are who are

1459
01:24:04,439 --> 01:24:08,000
Speaker 4: currently here on like valid asylum claims who are about

1460
01:24:08,000 --> 01:24:10,120
Speaker 4: to get those rights like stripped away. I'm trying to

1461
01:24:10,120 --> 01:24:13,280
Speaker 4: think of like the list of refugees that were allowed

1462
01:24:13,320 --> 01:24:15,960
Speaker 4: under Biden that are now like like imminently going to

1463
01:24:15,960 --> 01:24:18,880
Speaker 4: get their stuff stripped away from the Trump administration. I

1464
01:24:18,920 --> 01:24:23,920
Speaker 4: know Venezuelan, Yeah, I know you run Haitian immigrants are

1465
01:24:23,960 --> 01:24:27,559
Speaker 4: another off God, but groups that have that have been

1466
01:24:27,600 --> 01:24:29,960
Speaker 4: able to come here the past few years that are

1467
01:24:29,960 --> 01:24:32,360
Speaker 4: going to be now seen as like quote unquote illegal

1468
01:24:32,720 --> 01:24:36,360
Speaker 4: by the White House and Immigration Customs Enforcement. You then

1469
01:24:36,439 --> 01:24:39,800
Speaker 4: have student visa holders which are already like currently under

1470
01:24:39,840 --> 01:24:43,639
Speaker 4: threat getting visas taken away. You have people on work visas.

1471
01:24:43,720 --> 01:24:46,600
Speaker 4: You have green card holders, and you even have naturalized

1472
01:24:46,680 --> 01:24:51,960
Speaker 4: citizens and among just regular citizens a naturalists, I guess

1473
01:24:51,960 --> 01:24:54,559
Speaker 4: people that were born here, you have other factors that

1474
01:24:54,560 --> 01:24:58,720
Speaker 4: could lead to potential hardship based on political affiliation or

1475
01:24:58,760 --> 01:25:01,360
Speaker 4: based on gender and sectional reality. And that's kind of

1476
01:25:01,360 --> 01:25:04,760
Speaker 4: like the bracket breakdown I'm working off of. So as

1477
01:25:04,800 --> 01:25:07,080
Speaker 4: much as it's like dangerous to be like, you know,

1478
01:25:07,120 --> 01:25:10,600
Speaker 4: like a trans anarchist right in the United States, I

1479
01:25:10,640 --> 01:25:13,599
Speaker 4: think that is that is fairly different than a Haitian

1480
01:25:13,600 --> 01:25:17,360
Speaker 4: immigrant who's about to get like literally hunted down by ice, right,

1481
01:25:17,680 --> 01:25:21,400
Speaker 4: And these people have wildly different realities, wildly different options

1482
01:25:21,400 --> 01:25:24,160
Speaker 4: for how they're going to like handle this question and

1483
01:25:24,200 --> 01:25:28,240
Speaker 4: handle like the decision of you know, preemptively choosing to

1484
01:25:28,360 --> 01:25:32,080
Speaker 4: relocate somewhere else. James, do you have any kind of

1485
01:25:32,080 --> 01:25:34,200
Speaker 4: thoughts on this like onion?

1486
01:25:34,320 --> 01:25:37,720
Speaker 3: I guess yeah. I mean, I think you described it well, right,

1487
01:25:37,760 --> 01:25:39,040
Speaker 3: Like I think a lot of folks are for the

1488
01:25:39,120 --> 01:25:42,320
Speaker 3: first time finding themselves in that onion at all, right,

1489
01:25:42,439 --> 01:25:46,280
Speaker 3: and certainly with respect to like immigration enforcement or potentially

1490
01:25:46,320 --> 01:25:49,800
Speaker 3: being forced to leave this country. And I think it

1491
01:25:49,920 --> 01:25:53,200
Speaker 3: would be good maybe to to look at folks who

1492
01:25:53,240 --> 01:25:55,439
Speaker 3: have been there for a long time and look at

1493
01:25:55,439 --> 01:25:58,080
Speaker 3: how they've done right, Because there have been people whose

1494
01:25:58,120 --> 01:26:03,280
Speaker 3: existence was precarious in this country for decades. Right, Maybe

1495
01:26:03,280 --> 01:26:05,519
Speaker 3: we'd go back to nineteen ninety four in Operation Gatekeeper,

1496
01:26:05,560 --> 01:26:08,040
Speaker 3: Maybe we go back further whatever, I don't care. Maybe

1497
01:26:08,040 --> 01:26:10,479
Speaker 3: we go back to the operation whose name is also

1498
01:26:10,520 --> 01:26:12,600
Speaker 3: a slur in the nineteen thirties. And I'm not going to.

1499
01:26:12,640 --> 01:26:16,200
Speaker 4: Say I mean, and indigenous people here have, like for

1500
01:26:16,840 --> 01:26:20,200
Speaker 4: all of America, I'm sure have been been people that

1501
01:26:20,280 --> 01:26:23,280
Speaker 4: like exist in a wildly different reality than like, yeah,

1502
01:26:23,760 --> 01:26:25,160
Speaker 4: most US citizens, right.

1503
01:26:25,240 --> 01:26:28,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, where, Yes, this country is predicated on the genocide

1504
01:26:28,120 --> 01:26:29,000
Speaker 3: of indigenous people.

1505
01:26:29,360 --> 01:26:31,640
Speaker 4: Well, and even in the ways that they're the like

1506
01:26:31,800 --> 01:26:36,439
Speaker 4: continue to live here. It's it's like a different world from.

1507
01:26:36,280 --> 01:26:39,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, like that genocide is ongoing, Like it's a it's

1508
01:26:39,120 --> 01:26:41,479
Speaker 3: not a thing that stopped. Yeah, it's not a historical thing.

1509
01:26:41,640 --> 01:26:44,200
Speaker 3: It's the thing that exists. As long as this country exists.

1510
01:26:44,720 --> 01:26:47,160
Speaker 3: I would look to those people, right, Like you said, Garrison,

1511
01:26:47,200 --> 01:26:51,080
Speaker 3: Indigenous communities, Indigenous people continue to exist in this country

1512
01:26:51,120 --> 01:26:53,920
Speaker 3: despite the best efforts of this country to eradicate them.

1513
01:26:54,160 --> 01:26:58,600
Speaker 3: Undocumented communities, right, Migrant communities of mixed status have continued

1514
01:26:58,600 --> 01:27:01,680
Speaker 3: to exist for a very long time. And like the

1515
01:27:01,720 --> 01:27:04,439
Speaker 3: way that they have got through this is together, and

1516
01:27:04,479 --> 01:27:06,519
Speaker 3: that's the way that we will get through this too.

1517
01:27:07,000 --> 01:27:10,839
Speaker 3: When there have been threats to migrant communities, migrant communities

1518
01:27:10,880 --> 01:27:12,760
Speaker 3: have shown up for each other. Right, they're doing that

1519
01:27:12,880 --> 01:27:15,640
Speaker 3: right now. You see groups like Anon dela Barrio in

1520
01:27:15,680 --> 01:27:19,160
Speaker 3: San Diego right like going around announcing when there are

1521
01:27:19,200 --> 01:27:22,639
Speaker 3: ICE presence of ICE offices in the neighborhood. The way

1522
01:27:22,720 --> 01:27:25,040
Speaker 3: that they have got through it is through other people

1523
01:27:25,080 --> 01:27:27,760
Speaker 3: in positions of procarity, showing up for one another and

1524
01:27:27,800 --> 01:27:30,559
Speaker 3: taking care of one another. And if that is a

1525
01:27:30,600 --> 01:27:35,920
Speaker 3: new position for you, if finding yourself further along the

1526
01:27:35,960 --> 01:27:39,680
Speaker 3: intersectional matrix of oppression is new for you, then like

1527
01:27:40,280 --> 01:27:43,800
Speaker 3: it's scary. I do understand that that that procurity is petrifying,

1528
01:27:44,360 --> 01:27:46,800
Speaker 3: but understand that communities and people have been here for

1529
01:27:46,840 --> 01:27:49,519
Speaker 3: a long time and look at how they've got through it.

1530
01:27:49,680 --> 01:27:52,760
Speaker 3: And in queer communities too to a degree, have been

1531
01:27:52,800 --> 01:27:55,080
Speaker 3: persecuted in this country for a very long time and

1532
01:27:55,120 --> 01:27:58,800
Speaker 3: have developed ways of not just like existing, but also

1533
01:27:58,840 --> 01:28:02,280
Speaker 3: like continuing to and to joy and experience joy and

1534
01:28:02,360 --> 01:28:05,880
Speaker 3: not just like live in fear, because I think if

1535
01:28:05,920 --> 01:28:08,599
Speaker 3: you live in fear, like you've kind of given up

1536
01:28:08,640 --> 01:28:10,920
Speaker 3: to a degree, oh you've let them win. To agree,

1537
01:28:10,920 --> 01:28:13,040
Speaker 3: I should say, like, I do understand that being new

1538
01:28:13,080 --> 01:28:15,679
Speaker 3: to this is petrifying for people, and like I don't

1539
01:28:15,680 --> 01:28:17,479
Speaker 3: want to just say like, oh, you shouldn't be scared,

1540
01:28:17,600 --> 01:28:20,720
Speaker 3: or you know, you should look at how migrant communities

1541
01:28:20,720 --> 01:28:23,479
Speaker 3: have taken care of one another, but like now is

1542
01:28:23,520 --> 01:28:26,800
Speaker 3: the time to begin establishing solidarity as well. So like

1543
01:28:26,840 --> 01:28:30,280
Speaker 3: those communities which have been precarious for some time, they're

1544
01:28:30,280 --> 01:28:33,440
Speaker 3: not closed spaces, right, Like you can be in solidarity

1545
01:28:33,479 --> 01:28:35,320
Speaker 3: with them and you can learn from them, and I

1546
01:28:35,360 --> 01:28:38,200
Speaker 3: think that now is the time to do that, Like,

1547
01:28:38,400 --> 01:28:42,000
Speaker 3: now is the time to build stronger links. If you're

1548
01:28:42,040 --> 01:28:44,840
Speaker 3: really worried about things being really bad in this country,

1549
01:28:44,840 --> 01:28:46,639
Speaker 3: and you have good reason to be right, like.

1550
01:28:46,680 --> 01:28:50,519
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, shit's fucked up and bullshit, yeah it's really

1551
01:28:50,560 --> 01:28:51,840
Speaker 2: fucking bad, really bad.

1552
01:28:52,000 --> 01:28:54,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like you know, we're sending people to labor camps.

1553
01:28:55,120 --> 01:28:57,400
Speaker 2: If you're scared, panicking thinking I got to get out

1554
01:28:57,400 --> 01:28:58,360
Speaker 2: of here, I get you.

1555
01:28:59,120 --> 01:29:02,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, No, I mean I think the thing that you

1556
01:29:02,400 --> 01:29:06,160
Speaker 4: should be doing, regardless of who you are, is you

1557
01:29:06,160 --> 01:29:09,960
Speaker 4: should be giving yourself options. You should be increasing the

1558
01:29:10,000 --> 01:29:12,640
Speaker 4: amount of options that you have, And like that is

1559
01:29:12,680 --> 01:29:15,160
Speaker 4: something that is never a bad idea. That is something

1560
01:29:15,160 --> 01:29:18,280
Speaker 4: that you can never do too early. It's something that

1561
01:29:18,320 --> 01:29:20,680
Speaker 4: you should have already been doing. Frankly, like I've been

1562
01:29:20,720 --> 01:29:24,639
Speaker 4: advocating for people to get passports, including an American passport,

1563
01:29:24,840 --> 01:29:26,759
Speaker 4: because that does make it easier to leave the country.

1564
01:29:27,280 --> 01:29:28,240
Speaker 5: You should be getting that.

1565
01:29:28,320 --> 01:29:30,800
Speaker 4: And it's going to be harder, especially if you're trends now,

1566
01:29:30,840 --> 01:29:34,880
Speaker 4: to get a passport that matches what you look like. Right,

1567
01:29:35,600 --> 01:29:37,800
Speaker 4: But this is still something I think is worth doing

1568
01:29:37,840 --> 01:29:40,559
Speaker 4: because it gives you an option, and you should be

1569
01:29:40,600 --> 01:29:42,240
Speaker 4: increasing the amount of options you have.

1570
01:29:42,720 --> 01:29:45,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, yeah, it's never a bad thing. And

1571
01:29:45,720 --> 01:29:49,519
Speaker 3: like that community structure is an option too, right, Like

1572
01:29:49,600 --> 01:29:51,599
Speaker 3: people showing up for you and you showed up for them.

1573
01:29:51,720 --> 01:29:53,840
Speaker 3: That is one of your options. Don't forget that. And

1574
01:29:53,880 --> 01:29:57,240
Speaker 3: like that will also bring you join You will feel

1575
01:29:57,280 --> 01:30:00,479
Speaker 3: safer when you We're supposed to live in can munities.

1576
01:30:00,479 --> 01:30:03,960
Speaker 3: And like I you know, I've seen a lot of

1577
01:30:04,320 --> 01:30:07,719
Speaker 3: people in very difficult circumstances. And one of the Kurdish

1578
01:30:07,720 --> 01:30:10,200
Speaker 3: guys once said to me in the desert, he was like,

1579
01:30:10,240 --> 01:30:13,120
Speaker 3: whatever we do, we do together. And I thought that

1580
01:30:13,160 --> 01:30:15,640
Speaker 3: was very profound because they were at that time like

1581
01:30:15,840 --> 01:30:18,040
Speaker 3: dancing around a fire in the midst of what was

1582
01:30:18,040 --> 01:30:21,040
Speaker 3: like an open air concentration camp, you know. But if

1583
01:30:21,040 --> 01:30:22,840
Speaker 3: you can find a community, and you can find a

1584
01:30:22,880 --> 01:30:25,599
Speaker 3: way to continue to experience joy, then I promise that

1585
01:30:25,640 --> 01:30:27,880
Speaker 3: things won't be as bad as they seem right now.

1586
01:30:28,280 --> 01:30:28,559
Speaker 2: Yep.

1587
01:30:29,080 --> 01:30:32,560
Speaker 3: Within the Kurdish Shrina movement, there's a phrase that is

1588
01:30:32,600 --> 01:30:35,080
Speaker 3: commonly used a slogan. You could say, I guess in

1589
01:30:35,160 --> 01:30:39,320
Speaker 3: Kurdish you would say beershudan jiane means resistance is life.

1590
01:30:39,720 --> 01:30:43,000
Speaker 3: And we should remember that for whole groups of people,

1591
01:30:43,240 --> 01:30:46,439
Speaker 3: many of whom we've featured here, if they had all

1592
01:30:46,640 --> 01:30:50,040
Speaker 3: just left, they would no longer exist in the way

1593
01:30:50,040 --> 01:30:51,080
Speaker 3: that they exist now.

1594
01:30:51,200 --> 01:30:51,280
Speaker 1: Right.

1595
01:30:51,400 --> 01:30:58,040
Speaker 3: Kurdish people have been oppressed by various states for centuries, right, Turkish, Iraqi,

1596
01:30:58,360 --> 01:31:02,880
Speaker 3: Iranian and Syrian. They've been subject to genocidal violence, and

1597
01:31:02,920 --> 01:31:06,080
Speaker 3: they've still remained there, right, and they've continued to fight

1598
01:31:06,240 --> 01:31:09,040
Speaker 3: against that state oppression, and they've created something beautiful today

1599
01:31:09,040 --> 01:31:10,880
Speaker 3: as a result that we can see in Raja. But

1600
01:31:10,920 --> 01:31:14,000
Speaker 3: the same is true of the Karen and Kareni people

1601
01:31:14,120 --> 01:31:17,799
Speaker 3: we've spoken to in Meama. Right. They decided to remain

1602
01:31:18,280 --> 01:31:21,240
Speaker 3: rather than to leave, and in doing so that they

1603
01:31:21,320 --> 01:31:24,559
Speaker 3: created a culture that was based on resistance and that

1604
01:31:24,680 --> 01:31:28,719
Speaker 3: resisted the ability of the state to exercise a monopoly

1605
01:31:28,760 --> 01:31:32,040
Speaker 3: on violence and to determine their outcomes. And I think

1606
01:31:32,600 --> 01:31:35,680
Speaker 3: we should look to those examples as we consider, like,

1607
01:31:35,760 --> 01:31:39,839
Speaker 3: what does it mean if the state becomes more hostile here.

1608
01:31:40,840 --> 01:31:43,080
Speaker 4: Something that like I think I think Robert said in

1609
01:31:43,120 --> 01:31:45,960
Speaker 4: our work group chat, which thankfully has not been turned

1610
01:31:45,960 --> 01:31:47,160
Speaker 4: into an Atlantic article.

1611
01:31:47,240 --> 01:31:49,720
Speaker 2: I did invite Pete hegseeth, so we'll see if he

1612
01:31:50,120 --> 01:31:53,000
Speaker 2: happs in. You know, he's rejected us all the good times.

1613
01:31:54,040 --> 01:31:57,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you're trying to add the Atlantic editor in

1614
01:31:57,280 --> 01:31:58,840
Speaker 3: chief for years, he is not welcome.

1615
01:31:58,880 --> 01:32:02,639
Speaker 2: He's absolutely not Welbome fucked that guy.

1616
01:32:02,640 --> 01:32:05,360
Speaker 3: To seed him to manufacture consent for bombing another country

1617
01:32:05,360 --> 01:32:06,680
Speaker 3: in the Middle East on our podcast.

1618
01:32:06,960 --> 01:32:09,000
Speaker 2: It's so funny because it is like that is like

1619
01:32:09,040 --> 01:32:11,559
Speaker 2: the dream of every journalist that you just get added

1620
01:32:11,720 --> 01:32:14,040
Speaker 2: to the entire government's war planning chat and he just

1621
01:32:14,160 --> 01:32:17,240
Speaker 2: uses it to dunk on the Trump admin, like you

1622
01:32:17,520 --> 01:32:19,720
Speaker 2: get more info onlike anything.

1623
01:32:19,479 --> 01:32:21,360
Speaker 3: Than he like Home's back into the head.

1624
01:32:21,560 --> 01:32:24,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's it's fucking hysterical.

1625
01:32:24,439 --> 01:32:26,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, they could have had four years and maybe not

1626
01:32:26,600 --> 01:32:27,920
Speaker 3: maybe even any one off chat.

1627
01:32:28,000 --> 01:32:30,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, would they would have they would have accidentally invited

1628
01:32:30,439 --> 01:32:32,320
Speaker 2: a different journalist. It was going to happen eventually.

1629
01:32:32,439 --> 01:32:39,040
Speaker 4: But yeah, But something Robert said in our chat is that, like,

1630
01:32:39,560 --> 01:32:43,400
Speaker 4: if you already had like plans or the ability to

1631
01:32:44,120 --> 01:32:47,120
Speaker 4: move to a different country of your choosing, then yeah,

1632
01:32:47,160 --> 01:32:50,559
Speaker 4: why not? Right Like if if you already were thinking

1633
01:32:50,560 --> 01:32:54,439
Speaker 4: about moving to Germany, which is very funny to say now, right,

1634
01:32:55,080 --> 01:32:56,960
Speaker 4: but if you already had plans and you had the

1635
01:32:56,960 --> 01:32:59,720
Speaker 4: ability to do that, then then sure that's something that

1636
01:32:59,720 --> 01:33:03,160
Speaker 4: that you that you should like consider. If you do

1637
01:33:03,320 --> 01:33:07,040
Speaker 4: not already have pre existing plans and means, maybe it's

1638
01:33:07,040 --> 01:33:09,240
Speaker 4: not something to put all of your effort into doing

1639
01:33:09,320 --> 01:33:12,559
Speaker 4: right now, because that is such a massive undertaking in general,

1640
01:33:12,600 --> 01:33:15,160
Speaker 4: and not everyone has that option, and there's gonna be

1641
01:33:15,160 --> 01:33:18,760
Speaker 4: people stuck here, and you know, part of like my

1642
01:33:18,880 --> 01:33:21,320
Speaker 4: thinking on this is is like I'm in a relatively

1643
01:33:21,400 --> 01:33:25,240
Speaker 4: privileged position. I would rather use the sort of benefits

1644
01:33:25,320 --> 01:33:28,000
Speaker 4: and the stability that I have to help other people

1645
01:33:28,040 --> 01:33:30,400
Speaker 4: that are going to be living in this country. So

1646
01:33:30,479 --> 01:33:33,519
Speaker 4: I'm going to stay here to do that. And that's

1647
01:33:33,640 --> 01:33:37,000
Speaker 4: part of kind of my thought process on a personal level,

1648
01:33:37,560 --> 01:33:40,320
Speaker 4: do I you know, one day, maybe one to live

1649
01:33:40,400 --> 01:33:43,759
Speaker 4: off the continent. Yeah, but that's like for personal reasons,

1650
01:33:43,760 --> 01:33:46,520
Speaker 4: not for political reasons. That that's because I think Glasgow

1651
01:33:46,560 --> 01:33:50,360
Speaker 4: looks pretty. And if you also think Glasgow's pretty and

1652
01:33:50,400 --> 01:33:54,120
Speaker 4: you want to move there, then that's fine. But I guess,

1653
01:33:54,160 --> 01:33:56,559
Speaker 4: like the politics of escape, I do find a little

1654
01:33:56,560 --> 01:33:59,880
Speaker 4: bit troubling in some ways, and I guess I would

1655
01:33:59,880 --> 01:34:02,679
Speaker 4: like to talk about that a little bit more after

1656
01:34:02,920 --> 01:34:03,799
Speaker 4: this at break.

1657
01:34:13,920 --> 01:34:14,720
Speaker 5: All right, we're back.

1658
01:34:15,360 --> 01:34:19,000
Speaker 4: James made a horrible face when I when I complimented Scotland.

1659
01:34:19,360 --> 01:34:26,240
Speaker 3: What was up with that when you said glass Gow? Like, oh,

1660
01:34:26,280 --> 01:34:30,759
Speaker 3: so Glasgow not not a city that's traditionally like aesthetically prized.

1661
01:34:30,800 --> 01:34:35,080
Speaker 5: I guess, uh, okay, well that's maybe Okay.

1662
01:34:35,720 --> 01:34:38,520
Speaker 2: Edinburgh is where if I was going to go to Scotland,

1663
01:34:38,520 --> 01:34:39,519
Speaker 2: I'd probably aim.

1664
01:34:39,439 --> 01:34:41,320
Speaker 5: I'm not going to live in the Harry Potter town.

1665
01:34:41,360 --> 01:34:42,040
Speaker 5: Are you kidding me?

1666
01:34:42,320 --> 01:34:46,960
Speaker 3: It existed? Okay, Yeah, that is rude, Garrison.

1667
01:34:47,120 --> 01:34:49,360
Speaker 2: Don't take that away from Edinburgh. I don't give her

1668
01:34:49,400 --> 01:34:50,200
Speaker 2: that all.

1669
01:34:50,080 --> 01:34:53,760
Speaker 4: The coffee shops are like fucking wizard themes. Now, absolutely not.

1670
01:34:54,000 --> 01:34:56,439
Speaker 2: You haven't been to Edinburgh. Don't tell me that ship.

1671
01:34:56,800 --> 01:34:58,799
Speaker 5: I've seen your travel pictures Robert.

1672
01:34:59,320 --> 01:35:02,719
Speaker 3: I'm they were mostly hard liquor themed.

1673
01:35:04,000 --> 01:35:04,960
Speaker 5: Okay, that's fair.

1674
01:35:05,520 --> 01:35:08,519
Speaker 3: You can Edinburgh is a nice city. Glasgow is a

1675
01:35:08,600 --> 01:35:09,120
Speaker 3: nice city.

1676
01:35:09,600 --> 01:35:10,200
Speaker 4: You can enjoy it.

1677
01:35:10,240 --> 01:35:12,360
Speaker 3: You can enjoy it by stop by Karla on your

1678
01:35:12,360 --> 01:35:14,840
Speaker 3: way down the Uh my family are from.

1679
01:35:15,080 --> 01:35:18,040
Speaker 2: My favorite Glasgow fact is that there's a beverage called

1680
01:35:18,040 --> 01:35:22,120
Speaker 2: Buckfast that is twenty percent alcohol mineral wine made by

1681
01:35:22,160 --> 01:35:24,760
Speaker 2: monks that has as much coffee as a red bull.

1682
01:35:25,200 --> 01:35:25,320
Speaker 3: Uh.

1683
01:35:25,880 --> 01:35:28,679
Speaker 2: And in Glasgow, Scotland, for a significant period of time,

1684
01:35:28,760 --> 01:35:31,160
Speaker 2: roughly one percent of all violent crimes were committed with

1685
01:35:31,280 --> 01:35:31,759
Speaker 2: the bottle.

1686
01:35:32,640 --> 01:35:35,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, Bucky is it's it's a whole subculture.

1687
01:35:35,080 --> 01:35:37,320
Speaker 2: Buckfast gets you fucked fast, That's right, folks.

1688
01:35:40,200 --> 01:35:42,680
Speaker 4: So a term I've used for like the past few

1689
01:35:42,760 --> 01:35:45,920
Speaker 4: years to like discuss this, to discuss this question of

1690
01:35:45,960 --> 01:35:49,520
Speaker 4: like can you like outrun American fascism is the politics

1691
01:35:49,520 --> 01:35:55,280
Speaker 4: of escape. And for a while I really was vocally

1692
01:35:55,280 --> 01:35:58,240
Speaker 4: opposed to this sort of politics because it felt like

1693
01:35:58,720 --> 01:36:02,160
Speaker 4: the entire world was going through a global far right

1694
01:36:02,200 --> 01:36:04,920
Speaker 4: power grab and no matter where you run, you can't

1695
01:36:04,960 --> 01:36:09,040
Speaker 4: really get away from it. And now kind of curiously,

1696
01:36:09,479 --> 01:36:11,240
Speaker 4: you know, some of some of this is still happening right,

1697
01:36:11,280 --> 01:36:13,559
Speaker 4: you can look at the AfD in Germany. But but

1698
01:36:13,960 --> 01:36:17,679
Speaker 4: some of what's happened with this Trump administration has almost

1699
01:36:18,200 --> 01:36:21,080
Speaker 4: weakened a degree of like this global.

1700
01:36:20,760 --> 01:36:21,840
Speaker 5: Far right power grab.

1701
01:36:22,280 --> 01:36:25,640
Speaker 4: Like for a long time, it looked like the Conservative

1702
01:36:25,640 --> 01:36:29,639
Speaker 4: Party of Canada was about to just completely take control

1703
01:36:29,680 --> 01:36:32,479
Speaker 4: over the whole over the whole country due to like

1704
01:36:32,600 --> 01:36:36,920
Speaker 4: be pent up frustration over Justin Trudeau's Liberal Party. And

1705
01:36:36,960 --> 01:36:40,080
Speaker 4: now due to the actions of the Trump administration, the

1706
01:36:40,120 --> 01:36:44,479
Speaker 4: Liberals have retaken a significant portion of like popular support

1707
01:36:44,720 --> 01:36:47,040
Speaker 4: and are probably gonna do a big sweep in the

1708
01:36:47,040 --> 01:36:49,960
Speaker 4: general election. That's going to happen, I'm guessing next month

1709
01:36:50,200 --> 01:36:53,320
Speaker 4: with the new Prime minister like about about to call one,

1710
01:36:53,760 --> 01:36:56,200
Speaker 4: which makes sense because he should call one.

1711
01:36:56,160 --> 01:36:59,400
Speaker 5: At the at the peak of support for the Liberal Party.

1712
01:36:59,479 --> 01:37:02,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, after Conservatives have taken like a twelve to seventeen

1713
01:37:02,880 --> 01:37:05,960
Speaker 4: point depth, depending which pool you use. So for a

1714
01:37:06,000 --> 01:37:08,800
Speaker 4: while I was like, it doesn't even really make sense

1715
01:37:08,840 --> 01:37:11,200
Speaker 4: to flee to Canada because Canada is right on the

1716
01:37:11,200 --> 01:37:14,720
Speaker 4: coattails of America. Canadian politics are kind of historically but

1717
01:37:14,880 --> 01:37:19,519
Speaker 4: like ten years delayed from American politics, And now the

1718
01:37:19,560 --> 01:37:22,320
Speaker 4: new Trump administration is kind of thrown a curveball in this.

1719
01:37:23,360 --> 01:37:26,640
Speaker 4: British politics are always really hard for me to diagnose

1720
01:37:27,120 --> 01:37:30,160
Speaker 4: because all of their parties there are pretty wacky.

1721
01:37:30,320 --> 01:37:30,960
Speaker 5: In my mind.

1722
01:37:31,040 --> 01:37:35,000
Speaker 4: Oh, like, you know, what the Tories have been doing

1723
01:37:35,040 --> 01:37:39,280
Speaker 4: has been extremely worrying, Like the NHS, like trans stuff

1724
01:37:39,680 --> 01:37:42,960
Speaker 4: is pretty bad. Now that the you know, Labor Party

1725
01:37:43,040 --> 01:37:44,880
Speaker 4: is in, it's hard for me to figure out kind

1726
01:37:44,880 --> 01:37:47,040
Speaker 4: of where the country is going because this Labor Party

1727
01:37:47,080 --> 01:37:48,759
Speaker 4: is a pretty conservative labor party.

1728
01:37:49,560 --> 01:37:51,200
Speaker 5: But like, this idea of.

1729
01:37:51,160 --> 01:37:53,759
Speaker 4: Like being able to outrun American fascism is still something

1730
01:37:53,800 --> 01:37:58,240
Speaker 4: I find like unconvincing. I guess, like you can't fully

1731
01:37:58,320 --> 01:38:01,920
Speaker 4: run away from all of these problems, and there may

1732
01:38:01,960 --> 01:38:04,960
Speaker 4: be certain people that that it's still like makes sense

1733
01:38:05,000 --> 01:38:08,400
Speaker 4: to start making these moves, just to start planning for

1734
01:38:08,680 --> 01:38:12,040
Speaker 4: that option, right I am. I am pro options, even

1735
01:38:12,080 --> 01:38:16,160
Speaker 4: if this idea of like total escape I still find troubling. Yeah,

1736
01:38:17,040 --> 01:38:18,720
Speaker 4: and anyone else makes any kind of thoughts on this

1737
01:38:18,840 --> 01:38:19,639
Speaker 4: on this saw.

1738
01:38:20,200 --> 01:38:23,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, like as goes to US, goes the world, right,

1739
01:38:23,680 --> 01:38:29,240
Speaker 3: and but that is changing. But like maybe I think

1740
01:38:29,240 --> 01:38:31,280
Speaker 3: if it gets to the point where large numbers of

1741
01:38:31,320 --> 01:38:34,439
Speaker 3: people are fleeing the US, we might see some of

1742
01:38:34,479 --> 01:38:37,920
Speaker 3: that same anti migrant rhetoric that we've seen in the

1743
01:38:38,040 --> 01:38:43,400
Speaker 3: US in even relatively liberal Canada, the United Kingdom or

1744
01:38:43,600 --> 01:38:46,639
Speaker 3: other anglophone countries. Right, Like, it's already very hard to

1745
01:38:46,640 --> 01:38:50,719
Speaker 3: immigrate to Australia. It's not the easiest to immigrate to Canada. Frankly, Yeah,

1746
01:38:50,920 --> 01:38:53,000
Speaker 3: I'm not as familiar with the Canadian.

1747
01:38:52,600 --> 01:38:55,320
Speaker 4: Ones, especially as like an American. Yeah, unless you have

1748
01:38:55,439 --> 01:38:57,839
Speaker 4: like a job that you need to do in Canada

1749
01:38:58,160 --> 01:39:00,719
Speaker 4: and you're the only one who can do that job,

1750
01:39:01,120 --> 01:39:04,040
Speaker 4: or you get a Canadian girlfriend, or that's that makes

1751
01:39:04,040 --> 01:39:07,799
Speaker 4: it slightly easier, but still still not like completely easier.

1752
01:39:07,920 --> 01:39:12,040
Speaker 3: Frankly, yeah, that is a I guess that's the alternative. Yeah,

1753
01:39:12,080 --> 01:39:14,240
Speaker 3: I think, like, I know, like a lot of people

1754
01:39:14,280 --> 01:39:15,840
Speaker 3: who listen to this listen to this because they have

1755
01:39:15,840 --> 01:39:20,000
Speaker 3: a fairly radical politics, right or left politics, and like.

1756
01:39:20,120 --> 01:39:21,800
Speaker 5: Or you're a journalist or you're a federal worker.

1757
01:39:22,200 --> 01:39:24,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're looking to steal our stories.

1758
01:39:26,880 --> 01:39:31,439
Speaker 3: Fuck off, if I may say so, But like, yeah,

1759
01:39:31,439 --> 01:39:35,040
Speaker 3: we've all grown up on the stories of people who

1760
01:39:35,080 --> 01:39:37,040
Speaker 3: stood up for what they believed in, right, And Margaret

1761
01:39:37,120 --> 01:39:40,240
Speaker 3: makes a whole podcast about it, and Robert does on Christmases, yep,

1762
01:39:40,320 --> 01:39:43,400
Speaker 3: and like there's a reason why they did that, Like

1763
01:39:43,760 --> 01:39:47,080
Speaker 3: you know they I know that the idea of running

1764
01:39:47,080 --> 01:39:50,280
Speaker 3: away and being safe could be tempting, but like, if

1765
01:39:50,280 --> 01:39:53,240
Speaker 3: this country gets as bad as it needs to be

1766
01:39:53,280 --> 01:39:55,280
Speaker 3: for people to run away in large number, it's then

1767
01:39:55,439 --> 01:39:59,599
Speaker 3: like the world gets markedly less safe. Oh yeah, you're

1768
01:39:59,640 --> 01:40:01,920
Speaker 3: going to be running for the rest of your life.

1769
01:40:02,040 --> 01:40:04,360
Speaker 2: Just look at how much food the US produces, how

1770
01:40:04,400 --> 01:40:07,799
Speaker 2: much medicine. Seventy percent of all of the blood used

1771
01:40:08,120 --> 01:40:12,200
Speaker 2: in every single country's medical system around the world is

1772
01:40:12,280 --> 01:40:17,240
Speaker 2: exported from the United States. Oh wow, Yeah, that's crazy.

1773
01:40:18,920 --> 01:40:23,559
Speaker 4: And like, particularly for for like US citizens right looking

1774
01:40:23,680 --> 01:40:26,120
Speaker 4: looking to flee, the people who are going to be

1775
01:40:26,120 --> 01:40:29,000
Speaker 4: able to pull it off are people with pretty pretty

1776
01:40:29,040 --> 01:40:32,679
Speaker 4: extraordinary means in most cases. I'm not saying all cases,

1777
01:40:32,680 --> 01:40:34,479
Speaker 4: but like, if if you have the capacity to move

1778
01:40:34,520 --> 01:40:38,320
Speaker 4: from the United States to Germany, you're probably not living

1779
01:40:38,320 --> 01:40:41,320
Speaker 4: on the poverty line, right, Like this is this this

1780
01:40:41,320 --> 01:40:44,760
Speaker 4: takes a considerable financial investment. So instead, part of what

1781
01:40:44,840 --> 01:40:47,120
Speaker 4: my opposition to this is that you're essentially abandoning a

1782
01:40:47,120 --> 01:40:51,000
Speaker 4: whole bunch of like the like most at risk people.

1783
01:40:51,960 --> 01:40:54,360
Speaker 4: A part of this even extends out to like moving

1784
01:40:54,439 --> 01:40:56,760
Speaker 4: from state to state. I'm obviously in support of free movement.

1785
01:40:56,880 --> 01:40:59,040
Speaker 4: I've traveled around, and I'm going to continue to travel around.

1786
01:40:59,040 --> 01:41:00,639
Speaker 4: I want to see as much as in the world

1787
01:41:00,680 --> 01:41:03,960
Speaker 4: as I can. But like another facet of this politics

1788
01:41:03,960 --> 01:41:07,320
Speaker 4: of escape is that something I hear very consistently from

1789
01:41:07,439 --> 01:41:10,880
Speaker 4: my my friends in Atlanta, And this is something like

1790
01:41:10,920 --> 01:41:13,880
Speaker 4: I can attest to, like personally, the most amount of

1791
01:41:13,920 --> 01:41:17,360
Speaker 4: like like vocal transphobia from people like on the street

1792
01:41:17,360 --> 01:41:20,400
Speaker 4: that they have faced has not been in Atlanta, where

1793
01:41:20,400 --> 01:41:23,840
Speaker 4: they live. It's been when they're visiting people in Seattle

1794
01:41:24,000 --> 01:41:27,200
Speaker 4: or Portland. Like you actually get a lot more like

1795
01:41:27,640 --> 01:41:31,880
Speaker 4: weird anti queer harassment in Seattle, which just just like

1796
01:41:31,960 --> 01:41:35,160
Speaker 4: on like the street level. It's bizarre, Like cities all

1797
01:41:35,200 --> 01:41:37,479
Speaker 4: have different kind of like modes of operation. People have

1798
01:41:37,520 --> 01:41:41,200
Speaker 4: different like informal like manners in terms of how how

1799
01:41:41,240 --> 01:41:43,960
Speaker 4: you like behave on the street. And it's it's it is.

1800
01:41:44,000 --> 01:41:47,080
Speaker 4: This is something I've definitely actually I've definitely experienced. There's

1801
01:41:47,120 --> 01:41:50,679
Speaker 4: there's a lot more like open openness towards like certain

1802
01:41:50,720 --> 01:41:54,439
Speaker 4: types of of like anti trans harassment in like these

1803
01:41:54,479 --> 01:41:57,760
Speaker 4: like liberal safe havens like quote unquote Yeah, I've been

1804
01:41:57,760 --> 01:42:01,320
Speaker 4: called slurs on the street way more or in Portland,

1805
01:42:01,360 --> 01:42:04,360
Speaker 4: Oregon than I have in Atlanta, Georgia. And this is

1806
01:42:04,400 --> 01:42:06,920
Speaker 4: this is another like interesting aspect which I'm not saying

1807
01:42:06,960 --> 01:42:10,880
Speaker 4: Atlanta is like quote unquote safer city than Seattle if

1808
01:42:10,880 --> 01:42:13,840
Speaker 4: you're trans I'm not saying the vice versa either, But

1809
01:42:13,920 --> 01:42:16,639
Speaker 4: this is like just an aspect of like the politics

1810
01:42:16,640 --> 01:42:19,080
Speaker 4: of escape, like especially in the in the United States,

1811
01:42:19,120 --> 01:42:22,360
Speaker 4: like the there like is really no like real escape

1812
01:42:22,400 --> 01:42:26,640
Speaker 4: like there there is no mythical safe haven where you

1813
01:42:26,680 --> 01:42:29,760
Speaker 4: can live your your free life and frolics through the

1814
01:42:29,800 --> 01:42:32,600
Speaker 4: park and never have to face any kind of hardship

1815
01:42:32,920 --> 01:42:36,879
Speaker 4: or like political disenfranchisement. If you still want to relocate somewhere,

1816
01:42:37,000 --> 01:42:40,719
Speaker 4: that's something that you should consider and again create options.

1817
01:42:41,120 --> 01:42:43,800
Speaker 4: But I also do not want to like abandon my

1818
01:42:43,960 --> 01:42:47,280
Speaker 4: friends here because I just you know, have a more

1819
01:42:47,320 --> 01:42:50,400
Speaker 4: stable job, Like I want to be here for them

1820
01:42:50,720 --> 01:42:53,160
Speaker 4: and and help them, and not in like a patronizing way,

1821
01:42:53,160 --> 01:42:56,080
Speaker 4: but in like a solidarity way. Like that's like really

1822
01:42:56,120 --> 01:42:58,280
Speaker 4: important to me. And I think of people who are

1823
01:42:58,320 --> 01:43:00,479
Speaker 4: who are thinking about these same things and kind of

1824
01:43:00,520 --> 01:43:02,920
Speaker 4: running these same questions of of if they want to

1825
01:43:03,240 --> 01:43:05,679
Speaker 4: commit to sting in the United States. I think should

1826
01:43:05,680 --> 01:43:08,840
Speaker 4: also make those considerations of is like you know, which

1827
01:43:08,880 --> 01:43:10,560
Speaker 4: which one of your friends is not going to be

1828
01:43:10,600 --> 01:43:13,400
Speaker 4: able to make the same calculation. Yep, And frankly, I

1829
01:43:13,800 --> 01:43:16,760
Speaker 4: feel I feel like better as a person and like

1830
01:43:16,840 --> 01:43:18,720
Speaker 4: my mental health feels better knowing I'm going to be

1831
01:43:18,760 --> 01:43:23,160
Speaker 4: here with them rather than going to a Berlin nightclub.

1832
01:43:22,800 --> 01:43:25,320
Speaker 5: Which does sound fun. And I still might on vacation.

1833
01:43:25,600 --> 01:43:27,479
Speaker 2: Oh, you definitely need to go to Bergain, Garrett.

1834
01:43:27,520 --> 01:43:28,200
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I have.

1835
01:43:28,320 --> 01:43:31,000
Speaker 2: I have planned three days that feel like about four

1836
01:43:31,040 --> 01:43:31,879
Speaker 2: hours in Bergain.

1837
01:43:32,040 --> 01:43:34,080
Speaker 5: I am, I am, I'm excited.

1838
01:43:34,160 --> 01:43:36,479
Speaker 4: I am for the first time planning to leave the

1839
01:43:36,479 --> 01:43:39,919
Speaker 4: continent this year, which is a little bit scary because

1840
01:43:40,280 --> 01:43:43,439
Speaker 4: re entering the United States has is pretty tricky right now,

1841
01:43:43,640 --> 01:43:45,680
Speaker 4: which should also play into your considerations.

1842
01:43:45,760 --> 01:43:46,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1843
01:43:46,160 --> 01:43:48,880
Speaker 2: Yes, the general safety of air travel at the.

1844
01:43:48,840 --> 01:43:52,040
Speaker 4: Moment, safety and air travel now that we don't have

1845
01:43:52,080 --> 01:43:53,679
Speaker 4: a gay man running the planes.

1846
01:43:53,880 --> 01:43:55,680
Speaker 5: Uh yeah, it turns out he was actually all right.

1847
01:43:55,640 --> 01:43:55,880
Speaker 1: At that.

1848
01:43:58,439 --> 01:44:00,680
Speaker 5: Woke was keeping those planes in in the area, you.

1849
01:44:00,680 --> 01:44:03,920
Speaker 3: Know, kudos to him. Turns out he was okay at

1850
01:44:03,920 --> 01:44:04,400
Speaker 3: that job.

1851
01:44:07,920 --> 01:44:11,080
Speaker 4: But yes, I don't know what I was saying, but

1852
01:44:11,120 --> 01:44:13,880
Speaker 4: I'm sure it was really important and well thought through

1853
01:44:15,120 --> 01:44:18,920
Speaker 4: about not abandoning people who maybe don't have the same

1854
01:44:18,960 --> 01:44:19,840
Speaker 4: resources that you do.

1855
01:44:20,640 --> 01:44:24,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, to your point about like coming back to the US,

1856
01:44:25,479 --> 01:44:28,080
Speaker 3: understand that like one of the things that migrants to

1857
01:44:28,080 --> 01:44:29,680
Speaker 3: deal with, even if they get to a place and

1858
01:44:29,680 --> 01:44:31,800
Speaker 3: they have some degree permanents and they feel safe there,

1859
01:44:32,280 --> 01:44:35,120
Speaker 3: is that they will never be able to go back

1860
01:44:35,160 --> 01:44:37,439
Speaker 3: to where they're from in most cases, right that means

1861
01:44:37,600 --> 01:44:40,240
Speaker 3: when someone in their family passes away, they can't be

1862
01:44:40,320 --> 01:44:43,519
Speaker 3: there for the funeral. That means that when they have

1863
01:44:43,600 --> 01:44:47,920
Speaker 3: a grandchild, they have a niece or a nephew, something

1864
01:44:47,960 --> 01:44:49,640
Speaker 3: happens in their community and they want to be there

1865
01:44:49,680 --> 01:44:52,240
Speaker 3: to help. It's a natural disaster. They had just stuck.

1866
01:44:52,720 --> 01:44:56,479
Speaker 3: And that's not something to like to discount as something

1867
01:44:56,520 --> 01:45:01,120
Speaker 3: that's not important, Like that is really hard. And if

1868
01:45:01,120 --> 01:45:04,080
Speaker 3: you have a community now, especially for trans folks, right,

1869
01:45:04,160 --> 01:45:06,920
Speaker 3: Like I just think that like there are so many

1870
01:45:06,960 --> 01:45:09,960
Speaker 3: places where, like like you say, Garrison, where bigotry against

1871
01:45:10,000 --> 01:45:12,280
Speaker 3: transfolks is being more and more normalized. Like if you

1872
01:45:12,320 --> 01:45:15,160
Speaker 3: have a community where people where you're experiencing joy every

1873
01:45:15,240 --> 01:45:17,960
Speaker 3: day with the people you're around, like leaving that should

1874
01:45:17,960 --> 01:45:21,840
Speaker 3: be something that you really think hard about, because that

1875
01:45:21,920 --> 01:45:24,919
Speaker 3: can be hard to find. Yeah, yeah, especially in Edinburgh

1876
01:45:24,920 --> 01:45:29,920
Speaker 3: because they're all turfs with the in the cafes. That's

1877
01:45:29,960 --> 01:45:30,320
Speaker 3: not true.

1878
01:45:32,000 --> 01:45:34,240
Speaker 4: Just to be clear, Yeah, I mean, this is kind

1879
01:45:34,280 --> 01:45:37,200
Speaker 4: of the discussion I wanted to have. I'm sure we

1880
01:45:37,240 --> 01:45:39,040
Speaker 4: all have more thoughts on this that we will we

1881
01:45:39,080 --> 01:45:41,680
Speaker 4: will express very eloquently as soon as we close this

1882
01:45:41,800 --> 01:45:42,719
Speaker 4: recording session.

1883
01:45:42,760 --> 01:45:43,519
Speaker 3: That's how we do it.

1884
01:45:44,160 --> 01:45:46,479
Speaker 4: But but I know this is this is the type

1885
01:45:46,479 --> 01:45:47,840
Speaker 4: of stuff that we've been thinking about. I know, I

1886
01:45:48,040 --> 01:45:51,040
Speaker 4: know listeners have been too, because you're asking us these questions.

1887
01:45:51,439 --> 01:45:54,439
Speaker 4: So it's certainly annoying that we don't have a concise

1888
01:45:54,600 --> 01:45:57,800
Speaker 4: yes or no answer. But there isn't a concise yes

1889
01:45:57,920 --> 01:46:00,439
Speaker 4: or no answer. I think the most concise what I

1890
01:46:00,520 --> 01:46:02,599
Speaker 4: have is that you should be giving yourself as many

1891
01:46:02,640 --> 01:46:06,400
Speaker 4: options as you can. If that includes applying for Irish

1892
01:46:06,439 --> 01:46:10,680
Speaker 4: citizenship because your grandfather is Irish, then hey, why not

1893
01:46:11,040 --> 01:46:11,600
Speaker 4: go for it?

1894
01:46:11,720 --> 01:46:14,519
Speaker 2: Right, Ireland's great, nice country. You'll like it.

1895
01:46:15,840 --> 01:46:19,880
Speaker 4: But I am I am trepidacious. I guess about about

1896
01:46:19,880 --> 01:46:22,920
Speaker 4: you know, public calls to flee the country at this

1897
01:46:23,120 --> 01:46:26,400
Speaker 4: point and kind of the underlying politics and ideology of that,

1898
01:46:27,200 --> 01:46:31,200
Speaker 4: let alone the kind of the logistical aspects of trying

1899
01:46:31,280 --> 01:46:33,720
Speaker 4: to relocate to a different country where you are not

1900
01:46:33,760 --> 01:46:36,200
Speaker 4: a citizen. And frankly, I think there will be a

1901
01:46:36,240 --> 01:46:38,080
Speaker 4: lot of countries that are not super eager to take

1902
01:46:38,120 --> 01:46:42,479
Speaker 4: American immigrants. I think Canada is typically kind of, kind

1903
01:46:42,520 --> 01:46:45,960
Speaker 4: of low key been one of these places. Especially if

1904
01:46:45,960 --> 01:46:48,280
Speaker 4: we're going to go to war with Canada to make

1905
01:46:48,280 --> 01:46:50,880
Speaker 4: it the fifty first state, then it might also uh

1906
01:46:51,720 --> 01:46:54,559
Speaker 4: create create some some some tricky aspects.

1907
01:46:54,880 --> 01:46:55,599
Speaker 3: You could make it hot.

1908
01:46:56,320 --> 01:46:58,880
Speaker 4: But I know, if anyone else has any any other thoughts,

1909
01:46:59,160 --> 01:47:03,639
Speaker 4: air them now or forever. Be beholden to angry reddit comments.

1910
01:47:04,880 --> 01:47:08,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, please don't burn each other down on Reddit, Like

1911
01:47:08,720 --> 01:47:10,320
Speaker 3: now is the time to give people a little grace

1912
01:47:10,360 --> 01:47:11,799
Speaker 3: and be kind to other people.

1913
01:47:12,320 --> 01:47:14,920
Speaker 2: Don't flee to Belgium. Stay away from Belgium at all costs.

1914
01:47:15,040 --> 01:47:16,679
Speaker 3: I had a nice time in Belgium.

1915
01:47:16,680 --> 01:47:19,760
Speaker 5: What do you gets Belgium. I have a friend in Belgium.

1916
01:47:19,320 --> 01:47:22,200
Speaker 2: As an Italian. I think we need to go with

1917
01:47:22,320 --> 01:47:24,200
Speaker 2: a war with them again. You know, it's what made

1918
01:47:24,200 --> 01:47:26,599
Speaker 2: Caesar great. It could make us great again. That's that's

1919
01:47:26,600 --> 01:47:29,400
Speaker 2: my stance on Belgium. It's Italian territory.

1920
01:47:29,479 --> 01:47:30,880
Speaker 3: I stand with the Belgian people.

1921
01:47:52,439 --> 01:47:54,479
Speaker 5: Welcome to you can happen hear a podcast trying to

1922
01:47:54,520 --> 01:47:56,720
Speaker 5: figure out why some of the most powerful people in

1923
01:47:56,760 --> 01:47:59,280
Speaker 5: the world want everyone to think that they're gamers. It

1924
01:47:59,400 --> 01:48:02,120
Speaker 5: is it is host me along with me as Garrison Davis.

1925
01:48:02,520 --> 01:48:05,760
Speaker 4: Hi, I've I've played a video game before. I'm not

1926
01:48:05,880 --> 01:48:07,320
Speaker 4: very powerful, but I.

1927
01:48:07,680 --> 01:48:10,240
Speaker 5: Too have played many several video games.

1928
01:48:10,560 --> 01:48:13,240
Speaker 4: See I wouldn't. I wouldn't say several. I've I've played

1929
01:48:13,280 --> 01:48:17,120
Speaker 4: like a few many. I have played too many, simply

1930
01:48:17,120 --> 01:48:22,280
Speaker 4: too many video games. So okay, this is this is.

1931
01:48:22,400 --> 01:48:24,679
Speaker 5: In some ways kind of a lighter episode, because Jesus

1932
01:48:24,680 --> 01:48:27,639
Speaker 5: fucking Christ, everything's really depressing. Is something going on out there,

1933
01:48:28,120 --> 01:48:29,760
Speaker 5: It's all really bad, And one of the people who's

1934
01:48:29,760 --> 01:48:33,040
Speaker 5: been making everything really really bad is Elon Musk, who

1935
01:48:33,720 --> 01:48:36,800
Speaker 5: has somehow managed to like piss off the gamers. The

1936
01:48:36,840 --> 01:48:41,360
Speaker 5: PayPal guy, the PayPal guy, the owner of X I've

1937
01:48:41,400 --> 01:48:44,200
Speaker 5: I've been I've been locked in my uh in my

1938
01:48:44,320 --> 01:48:46,599
Speaker 5: gamer cave for the past like five months.

1939
01:48:46,600 --> 01:48:48,960
Speaker 4: I'm not left. I'm just hearing about this now.

1940
01:48:49,320 --> 01:48:51,120
Speaker 5: Yeah you might. You might. You might know of him

1941
01:48:51,120 --> 01:48:53,160
Speaker 5: as the guy who paid another guy to play Path

1942
01:48:53,160 --> 01:48:54,880
Speaker 5: of Exile two for him. We will get to that.

1943
01:48:55,040 --> 01:48:57,040
Speaker 4: See, I don't play those games. Those games are gay.

1944
01:48:57,760 --> 01:49:03,320
Speaker 4: I only play Nintendo Mecca games and Hell Divers too,

1945
01:49:04,080 --> 01:49:04,759
Speaker 4: like a loser.

1946
01:49:05,240 --> 01:49:08,519
Speaker 5: That's that's reasonable, that's reasonable. Those are those are Those

1947
01:49:08,520 --> 01:49:12,880
Speaker 5: are fine games. Oh and Sonic, Oh god, okay, pushing

1948
01:49:12,920 --> 01:49:19,040
Speaker 5: aside the subject the Sonic, So okay, I want to

1949
01:49:19,080 --> 01:49:21,120
Speaker 5: take a look a bit about why this sort of

1950
01:49:21,200 --> 01:49:25,240
Speaker 5: matters and why all of these fucking really rich assholes

1951
01:49:25,240 --> 01:49:28,880
Speaker 5: are sort of trying to pretend to be gamers. And

1952
01:49:28,960 --> 01:49:31,400
Speaker 5: I think the place to start here is with the

1953
01:49:31,479 --> 01:49:34,639
Speaker 5: fact that gaming is in one hundred and eighty four

1954
01:49:34,680 --> 01:49:38,120
Speaker 5: point three billion dollar industry. Todd Harris, who is an

1955
01:49:38,160 --> 01:49:41,240
Speaker 5: extremely annoying guy but is also right, points out that

1956
01:49:41,320 --> 01:49:44,000
Speaker 5: this is more money than TV, movies, and music combined.

1957
01:49:44,720 --> 01:49:47,559
Speaker 5: So this is the largest entertainment market in the world

1958
01:49:47,880 --> 01:49:52,439
Speaker 5: by such an astounding margin in terms of just dollar value. Right,

1959
01:49:53,280 --> 01:49:56,960
Speaker 5: something like three billion people play video games. It's mostly

1960
01:49:57,000 --> 01:49:59,240
Speaker 5: mobile games, which makes the story I'm about to tell

1961
01:49:59,360 --> 01:50:03,040
Speaker 5: very weird because the actual people who play these games again,

1962
01:50:03,120 --> 01:50:07,080
Speaker 5: it's it's a lot of mobile games, and it's also

1963
01:50:07,280 --> 01:50:11,160
Speaker 5: mostly people who are women, and non white. And yet, however, Comma,

1964
01:50:11,200 --> 01:50:14,880
Speaker 5: when people think about like the gamer TM, you are

1965
01:50:14,920 --> 01:50:16,240
Speaker 5: not thinking about.

1966
01:50:15,960 --> 01:50:18,240
Speaker 4: That, yeah, like as a political class.

1967
01:50:19,000 --> 01:50:22,000
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, you know, like when people say the word gamer, yeah,

1968
01:50:22,040 --> 01:50:25,320
Speaker 5: you're thinking of a bunch of weird in cell right

1969
01:50:25,360 --> 01:50:31,960
Speaker 5: wing dipshits who are white and suckass. And this is

1970
01:50:32,120 --> 01:50:34,280
Speaker 5: in large part because gamer Gate was sort of the first,

1971
01:50:34,320 --> 01:50:37,640
Speaker 5: like truly effective political mobilization of like the gamer as

1972
01:50:37,640 --> 01:50:39,680
Speaker 5: a political identity. And obviously this is you know, this

1973
01:50:39,800 --> 01:50:42,800
Speaker 5: is a fascist movement. Now. Part of the reason this works,

1974
01:50:42,800 --> 01:50:45,040
Speaker 5: and we're gonna be getting more into why this sort

1975
01:50:45,080 --> 01:50:47,160
Speaker 5: of works later, but part of the reason this works

1976
01:50:47,200 --> 01:50:48,920
Speaker 5: is that this is an extremely large group of people

1977
01:50:48,960 --> 01:50:51,840
Speaker 5: because it's new. No one has sort of defined it

1978
01:50:51,880 --> 01:50:54,200
Speaker 5: as a political identity before, and it's also filled with

1979
01:50:54,280 --> 01:50:57,880
Speaker 5: people who are extremely insecure about their identity as a

1980
01:50:57,880 --> 01:51:00,000
Speaker 5: gamer because this is a relatively new medium, which is

1981
01:51:00,040 --> 01:51:03,800
Speaker 5: why everyone fucking either wants their games to be like

1982
01:51:04,200 --> 01:51:08,040
Speaker 5: treated like movies or some shit, or they want it

1983
01:51:08,040 --> 01:51:11,120
Speaker 5: to be sports because those are sort of cultural things

1984
01:51:11,439 --> 01:51:13,360
Speaker 5: with enormous amounts of money, and then that are taken

1985
01:51:13,400 --> 01:51:17,479
Speaker 5: like quote unquote more seriously. Yeah. Yeah, And so the

1986
01:51:18,000 --> 01:51:20,680
Speaker 5: effect of this is that the cultural affect of being

1987
01:51:20,760 --> 01:51:23,720
Speaker 5: a gamer is extremely important to these people. And this

1988
01:51:23,880 --> 01:51:26,920
Speaker 5: is true actually really both on the left as much

1989
01:51:26,920 --> 01:51:28,479
Speaker 5: as it is on their right. There are a lot

1990
01:51:28,479 --> 01:51:31,960
Speaker 5: of like sort of political figures. I don't know, you're

1991
01:51:32,000 --> 01:51:35,160
Speaker 5: sort of like online people who come out of gaming,

1992
01:51:36,040 --> 01:51:37,760
Speaker 5: like like h Bomber guy. I guess this is an

1993
01:51:37,760 --> 01:51:40,880
Speaker 5: example like Hassan. To some extent, there's just like a

1994
01:51:40,880 --> 01:51:43,920
Speaker 5: lot of people who are like gamers and then by

1995
01:51:43,960 --> 01:51:47,000
Speaker 5: sort of like become political. But on the other hand,

1996
01:51:47,120 --> 01:51:49,840
Speaker 5: gaming has always been like a not always but has

1997
01:51:50,160 --> 01:51:54,559
Speaker 5: traditionally been an extremely right wing space. Oh god, Garrison,

1998
01:51:54,800 --> 01:51:56,800
Speaker 5: I feel like you will actually appreciate how fucking shit

1999
01:51:56,880 --> 01:51:58,559
Speaker 5: this is. Have I told you this story about Kabab

2000
01:51:58,640 --> 01:52:02,040
Speaker 5: the German now? Oh boy? Okay, so back in the

2001
01:52:02,120 --> 01:52:04,639
Speaker 5: dawn of Time I played a lot of Heartstone as

2002
01:52:04,680 --> 01:52:07,400
Speaker 5: a kid, and I was like, I wasn't like good.

2003
01:52:07,479 --> 01:52:09,840
Speaker 4: Is that like a resource management type game for like

2004
01:52:09,880 --> 01:52:10,679
Speaker 4: gay autistic people?

2005
01:52:11,120 --> 01:52:14,000
Speaker 5: No, this is this is the world of Warcraft card game.

2006
01:52:14,360 --> 01:52:16,160
Speaker 4: Okay, that's that's even more embarrassing.

2007
01:52:17,120 --> 01:52:19,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, really bad, really bad. I think I think I

2008
01:52:19,320 --> 01:52:22,960
Speaker 5: peaked at like two k Legend North America, which like

2009
01:52:23,600 --> 01:52:26,720
Speaker 5: technically speaking is like top like half a percent of

2010
01:52:26,760 --> 01:52:31,200
Speaker 5: players in the world's digital collectible card video game. Come on,

2011
01:52:31,360 --> 01:52:35,080
Speaker 5: oh yeah yeah, but two k legend DNA is like

2012
01:52:35,120 --> 01:52:37,920
Speaker 5: fucking shitter ranks. It's bad. I was never like good,

2013
01:52:38,080 --> 01:52:41,439
Speaker 5: good at it. I was just like okay, kind of.

2014
01:52:42,160 --> 01:52:44,040
Speaker 5: But you know, this is like a thing that I

2015
01:52:44,080 --> 01:52:46,040
Speaker 5: did growing up, and something I remember is like all

2016
01:52:46,080 --> 01:52:48,080
Speaker 5: of the fucking Heardstone streamers and these are like really

2017
01:52:48,120 --> 01:52:51,040
Speaker 5: big streamers would play music from this guy they called

2018
01:52:51,080 --> 01:52:55,160
Speaker 5: Kobob the German and it turns out that his actual

2019
01:52:55,240 --> 01:52:58,599
Speaker 5: name was removed Kobob because he was a fucking German

2020
01:52:58,680 --> 01:53:03,599
Speaker 5: neo Nazi. Well many such cases, yeah, for people who

2021
01:53:03,640 --> 01:53:07,240
Speaker 5: like are not aware of of like mid twenty tens

2022
01:53:07,320 --> 01:53:10,320
Speaker 5: German fascism. Remove Kebab is like a slogan calling for

2023
01:53:10,360 --> 01:53:12,879
Speaker 5: the ethnic cleansing and genocide of Turkish people in Germany.

2024
01:53:13,760 --> 01:53:16,240
Speaker 5: So great stuff, great stuff. This is just was just

2025
01:53:16,280 --> 01:53:18,160
Speaker 5: sort of like the water you were swimming in if

2026
01:53:18,200 --> 01:53:22,479
Speaker 5: you were a gamer in like the twenty tens. Now,

2027
01:53:23,560 --> 01:53:27,000
Speaker 5: this goes some way to explaining something that I noticed

2028
01:53:27,720 --> 01:53:33,120
Speaker 5: kind of recently, which is the absolutely bizarre obsession these

2029
01:53:33,120 --> 01:53:35,919
Speaker 5: tech CEOs like who want to be thought of as gamers.

2030
01:53:36,400 --> 01:53:37,960
Speaker 5: And so the two examples we're gonna look at are

2031
01:53:38,000 --> 01:53:40,479
Speaker 5: Sam bank and Freed's And this is really technically on

2032
01:53:40,520 --> 01:53:42,240
Speaker 5: both sides of the political spectrum, Right, We're gonna look

2033
01:53:42,240 --> 01:53:45,160
Speaker 5: at Sam Banker Freed, and we're gonna look at Elon

2034
01:53:45,320 --> 01:53:50,400
Speaker 5: musk are new Overlord. I guess. So we're gonna start

2035
01:53:50,400 --> 01:53:52,880
Speaker 5: with Sam bankin Freed, and you know, as we go

2036
01:53:52,960 --> 01:53:56,559
Speaker 5: through what's happening here, we're gonna sort of unravel why

2037
01:53:56,880 --> 01:53:58,839
Speaker 5: it's so important to them to be seen as gamers.

2038
01:53:59,600 --> 01:54:01,080
Speaker 5: And I, I guess it is important to know like

2039
01:54:01,120 --> 01:54:04,120
Speaker 5: Sam Bakman Fried like is I guess like he is

2040
01:54:04,120 --> 01:54:06,160
Speaker 5: a gamer in the sense that like he's like addicted

2041
01:54:06,200 --> 01:54:10,400
Speaker 5: to video games effectively and just plays them fucking literally constantly. Yeah,

2042
01:54:10,439 --> 01:54:13,280
Speaker 5: he looks the part too, no offense. Yeah, yeah, before

2043
01:54:13,280 --> 01:54:15,040
Speaker 5: before he was put in prison for twenty five years

2044
01:54:15,120 --> 01:54:16,240
Speaker 5: for fraud.

2045
01:54:16,439 --> 01:54:19,599
Speaker 4: Well probably not anymore. He's probably gonna get part of God.

2046
01:54:19,960 --> 01:54:21,800
Speaker 5: Maybe we'll see, we'll see. I don't know.

2047
01:54:21,920 --> 01:54:25,280
Speaker 4: Crypto vote, it's the most valuable voting block. Now, all

2048
01:54:25,520 --> 01:54:28,320
Speaker 4: young Americans are too poor to open bank accounts, so

2049
01:54:28,320 --> 01:54:30,400
Speaker 4: they put all their money in crypto. So now they're

2050
01:54:30,400 --> 01:54:32,920
Speaker 4: gonna vote for whoever makes line go up.

2051
01:54:33,120 --> 01:54:37,640
Speaker 5: I'm gonna become the joker. So okay, then think about

2052
01:54:37,640 --> 01:54:40,840
Speaker 5: Sam Megan Frieda for people who have forgotten who SBF is.

2053
01:54:41,000 --> 01:54:43,680
Speaker 5: He is the guy who was the founder of FTX,

2054
01:54:43,720 --> 01:54:45,919
Speaker 5: which was like a crypto change that was actually effectively

2055
01:54:45,960 --> 01:54:48,040
Speaker 5: a giant scam where he took everyone's money and betted

2056
01:54:48,080 --> 01:54:50,720
Speaker 5: on the stock market and lost it. And you know,

2057
01:54:51,680 --> 01:54:54,000
Speaker 5: Robert did a behind the bassards on him. And one

2058
01:54:54,040 --> 01:54:56,000
Speaker 5: of the things that happens constantly is he's just like

2059
01:54:56,040 --> 01:54:59,000
Speaker 5: always fucking playing video games. He's playing this really dogshit

2060
01:54:59,040 --> 01:55:01,320
Speaker 5: game called Story Big or Algy Meetings. He is a

2061
01:55:01,400 --> 01:55:05,080
Speaker 5: League of Legends addict, which is like as as any

2062
01:55:05,120 --> 01:55:07,240
Speaker 5: gamer will know a person who plays the League of

2063
01:55:07,320 --> 01:55:09,240
Speaker 5: Legends all the time, like one of the worst categories

2064
01:55:09,280 --> 01:55:12,560
Speaker 5: people who's ever existed. And one of the things that

2065
01:55:12,560 --> 01:55:15,680
Speaker 5: that SBF did as as a sort of pr thing

2066
01:55:15,840 --> 01:55:20,240
Speaker 5: right was let the author Michael Lewis of the Big Shorts,

2067
01:55:20,560 --> 01:55:26,800
Speaker 5: We're Gonna get the moneyball in a second, blindside other books.

2068
01:55:27,120 --> 01:55:29,920
Speaker 4: Reparatable financial advice books, is what I'm hearing.

2069
01:55:31,400 --> 01:55:34,240
Speaker 5: But you know, like a very very powerful, influential and

2070
01:55:34,520 --> 01:55:36,960
Speaker 5: wealthy American journalist just let him sort of tag along

2071
01:55:37,120 --> 01:55:41,520
Speaker 5: and and Michael Lewis's sort of angle on understanding him.

2072
01:55:41,520 --> 01:55:44,560
Speaker 5: But this is something that like ICBF was like you know,

2073
01:55:45,120 --> 01:55:47,080
Speaker 5: was like projecting right in order for this to be

2074
01:55:47,080 --> 01:55:49,040
Speaker 5: the image of him, was him as like the gamer.

2075
01:55:49,600 --> 01:55:52,120
Speaker 5: And this sort of just like baffles Michael Lewis right,

2076
01:55:52,120 --> 01:55:56,480
Speaker 5: because he just like doesn't understand someone who just has

2077
01:55:56,520 --> 01:55:58,800
Speaker 5: ADHD and plays video games all the time and doesn't

2078
01:55:58,800 --> 01:56:01,240
Speaker 5: give a shit. So he plays meetings like no one

2079
01:56:01,240 --> 01:56:03,320
Speaker 5: has ever been like this. I have no idea what

2080
01:56:03,360 --> 01:56:06,280
Speaker 5: you mean. I actually don't play video game stream meetings

2081
01:56:06,320 --> 01:56:10,600
Speaker 5: because it is too obvious. But I play.

2082
01:56:10,600 --> 01:56:13,080
Speaker 4: I play video games a once a week. That's that's

2083
01:56:13,120 --> 01:56:14,200
Speaker 4: that's kind of my Oh.

2084
01:56:14,120 --> 01:56:16,120
Speaker 5: God, this is the one part about sam Bakmon Free

2085
01:56:16,120 --> 01:56:18,000
Speaker 5: that's relatable to me. I play so many video games.

2086
01:56:18,040 --> 01:56:20,840
Speaker 5: It is my like antidepression strategy, basically, like when I

2087
01:56:20,840 --> 01:56:23,800
Speaker 5: need to not think for a while, there's just MEO playing.

2088
01:56:23,840 --> 01:56:25,680
Speaker 5: Actually Path of Faxyle too, one of the games that

2089
01:56:25,720 --> 01:56:27,840
Speaker 5: we're gonna be talking about today, something that I play

2090
01:56:27,840 --> 01:56:31,320
Speaker 5: a lot of. I've done so much fucking gaming, Like god,

2091
01:56:31,360 --> 01:56:33,400
Speaker 5: I used to play this game called Smite, which is

2092
01:56:33,480 --> 01:56:35,080
Speaker 5: like a it's like a mob but like League of

2093
01:56:35,120 --> 01:56:37,200
Speaker 5: Legends but like third person and I played so much

2094
01:56:37,200 --> 01:56:40,040
Speaker 5: Smite that they were pro showing my casual games. When

2095
01:56:40,120 --> 01:56:42,560
Speaker 5: when the Zoomer Revolution comes and they execute the gamers

2096
01:56:42,560 --> 01:56:44,400
Speaker 5: and they execute b I'm gonna be like, yeah, you know,

2097
01:56:44,480 --> 01:56:46,880
Speaker 5: that's reasonable. Like I can't argue with that.

2098
01:56:46,960 --> 01:56:51,560
Speaker 4: I'll inform the council't our next folks council meeting. I'll

2099
01:56:51,560 --> 01:56:52,440
Speaker 4: bring it to the table.

2100
01:56:52,880 --> 01:56:55,880
Speaker 5: That's reasonable. But you know, so so what what what

2101
01:56:55,880 --> 01:56:58,080
Speaker 5: what happens with this sort of thing is that is

2102
01:56:58,080 --> 01:57:01,760
Speaker 5: that Michael Lewis's image of SF becomes as this gamer

2103
01:57:01,760 --> 01:57:04,640
Speaker 5: who's doing these completely incomprehensible things. He's mind must be

2104
01:57:04,760 --> 01:57:07,960
Speaker 5: so unbelievably brilliant. Yeah, totally, because he's just like playing

2105
01:57:08,200 --> 01:57:11,000
Speaker 5: fucking video games all the time. And and this gets

2106
01:57:11,000 --> 01:57:14,880
Speaker 5: to one of the aspects of why these people do this,

2107
01:57:14,880 --> 01:57:16,600
Speaker 5: this sort of like pretending to be a gamer thing

2108
01:57:16,680 --> 01:57:18,960
Speaker 5: and and like and like SBF like is a gamer, right,

2109
01:57:19,360 --> 01:57:21,000
Speaker 5: but like why why they make us part of their

2110
01:57:21,000 --> 01:57:22,960
Speaker 5: cultural image, which is that a lot of the traditional

2111
01:57:23,000 --> 01:57:27,440
Speaker 5: media people, even though gaming is an enormous industry. It's

2112
01:57:27,480 --> 01:57:31,920
Speaker 5: it's extremely profitable and is enormously culturally powerful. It doesn't

2113
01:57:32,280 --> 01:57:36,520
Speaker 5: have the same kind of critical culture around. It doesn't

2114
01:57:36,520 --> 01:57:38,880
Speaker 5: exist that you would see or something like movies or like.

2115
01:57:39,000 --> 01:57:43,920
Speaker 4: Respectability in some way, except in like the reversed Sam

2116
01:57:43,960 --> 01:57:47,800
Speaker 4: Bankman freedway, where like the schlubbiness is part of what

2117
01:57:47,920 --> 01:57:50,640
Speaker 4: makes him like an extential genius, right, like like like

2118
01:57:50,760 --> 01:57:53,560
Speaker 4: that era of like Silicon Valley guy. Yeah, that's like

2119
01:57:53,840 --> 01:57:56,680
Speaker 4: he's he's so different, right, Like he's he's he's not

2120
01:57:56,720 --> 01:57:58,920
Speaker 4: like put together, and this like shows how he's like

2121
01:57:58,960 --> 01:58:01,200
Speaker 4: a new and innovative thing. So it's kind of like

2122
01:58:01,240 --> 01:58:03,080
Speaker 4: it's kind of like a double edged sword in like

2123
01:58:03,560 --> 01:58:04,640
Speaker 4: that specific way.

2124
01:58:04,880 --> 01:58:07,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, this is all a feedback loop, right, because

2125
01:58:07,120 --> 01:58:09,800
Speaker 5: like part of it not being respectable is that someone

2126
01:58:09,880 --> 01:58:12,280
Speaker 5: like Michael Lewis, right, who was like as establishment of

2127
01:58:12,280 --> 01:58:14,760
Speaker 5: a journalist as there's ever been. These people don't play

2128
01:58:14,800 --> 01:58:16,960
Speaker 5: video games. They're one of the figures people who just

2129
01:58:16,960 --> 01:58:20,000
Speaker 5: like don't game. Are these like traditional mainstream sort of

2130
01:58:20,040 --> 01:58:22,800
Speaker 5: access journalists, right, And so they run into this shit

2131
01:58:22,840 --> 01:58:24,880
Speaker 5: and they have no fucking idea what the hell is

2132
01:58:24,920 --> 01:58:28,120
Speaker 5: going on, And it's just really really easily just sort

2133
01:58:28,120 --> 01:58:30,360
Speaker 5: of like bamboozle them by just doing something that any

2134
01:58:30,360 --> 01:58:33,080
Speaker 5: gamer like, you know you, like, you show a gamer

2135
01:58:33,200 --> 01:58:35,360
Speaker 5: like a League of Legends addicts, and they will instantly

2136
01:58:35,360 --> 01:58:37,240
Speaker 5: be able to just like read this person like a

2137
01:58:37,240 --> 01:58:39,280
Speaker 5: fucking book. Also, by the way, gaming addiction like is

2138
01:58:39,320 --> 01:58:42,040
Speaker 5: like kind of a fake thing. I'm like mostly joking here,

2139
01:58:42,080 --> 01:58:45,000
Speaker 5: but also like League of Legends makes you a worse person.

2140
01:58:46,240 --> 01:58:48,600
Speaker 5: It simply does. You just get mad all the time.

2141
01:58:48,640 --> 01:58:50,960
Speaker 5: I've known too many League Legis players of my goddamn life.

2142
01:58:51,200 --> 01:58:52,440
Speaker 5: Holy shit, terrible game.

2143
01:58:52,760 --> 01:58:58,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, but arcane though, right, all right, didn't Oh god, Okay.

2144
01:58:58,200 --> 01:58:59,640
Speaker 5: We're gonna take an ad break, and then when I

2145
01:58:59,680 --> 01:59:01,840
Speaker 5: come back, I'm going to explain part of why this worked,

2146
01:59:01,880 --> 01:59:04,000
Speaker 5: which is the unique incompetence of Michael Lewis.

2147
01:59:04,400 --> 01:59:06,520
Speaker 4: Well, I look forward to that. I love hearing about

2148
01:59:06,600 --> 01:59:07,560
Speaker 4: unique incompetence.

2149
01:59:17,800 --> 01:59:20,280
Speaker 5: So we are back now, Okay, Obviously, part of the

2150
01:59:20,280 --> 01:59:22,080
Speaker 5: reason this works too is, you know, as I've been

2151
01:59:22,080 --> 01:59:24,760
Speaker 5: talking about, right, like these these really out of touch

2152
01:59:25,040 --> 01:59:27,800
Speaker 5: sort of like mainstream journalists who just don't understand an

2153
01:59:28,120 --> 01:59:32,560
Speaker 5: enormous market. Right, But Lewis is in some sense kind

2154
01:59:32,560 --> 01:59:37,000
Speaker 5: of a special case because he is really truly an

2155
01:59:37,120 --> 01:59:40,880
Speaker 5: unbelievably global dumbass. And to get an understanding of this,

2156
01:59:40,920 --> 01:59:42,720
Speaker 5: I'm going to go into something that Lewis in theory

2157
01:59:42,800 --> 01:59:44,520
Speaker 5: understands a lot better, which is sports.

2158
01:59:44,680 --> 01:59:46,440
Speaker 2: So Lewis has.

2159
01:59:46,320 --> 01:59:48,960
Speaker 5: Written two of the most famous books ever written about sports, right.

2160
01:59:49,040 --> 01:59:52,000
Speaker 5: He wrote Moneyball, which is the book that we're gonna

2161
01:59:52,000 --> 01:59:53,520
Speaker 5: be talking about, which I'll get to you in a second.

2162
01:59:53,560 --> 01:59:55,280
Speaker 5: And he wrote The Blindside, which is another book that

2163
01:59:55,640 --> 01:59:57,920
Speaker 5: they talk about on Behind the Bassarge and go listen

2164
01:59:57,920 --> 02:00:00,800
Speaker 5: to that, But I want to go going on money Bomb.

2165
02:00:00,840 --> 02:00:03,560
Speaker 5: Moneyball is supposed to be this book about how this

2166
02:00:03,800 --> 02:00:07,760
Speaker 5: underdog an athletics team invented like baseball metrics and they

2167
02:00:07,800 --> 02:00:10,720
Speaker 5: use sabermetrics to like like build this roster out of

2168
02:00:10,760 --> 02:00:13,400
Speaker 5: nothing that like went to the playoffs and did really well.

2169
02:00:14,080 --> 02:00:16,440
Speaker 5: And like I'm not going to get into the extent

2170
02:00:16,440 --> 02:00:18,840
Speaker 5: to which this was kind of a mirage about that

2171
02:00:18,880 --> 02:00:20,880
Speaker 5: Oakland A's team, Like whatever, I'm not gonna argue about

2172
02:00:20,880 --> 02:00:24,280
Speaker 5: baseball statistics. What I will argue about is that one

2173
02:00:24,320 --> 02:00:27,160
Speaker 5: of the characters in this fucking book, right, who's one

2174
02:00:27,200 --> 02:00:29,400
Speaker 5: of the sort of like underdog geniuses and like Michael

2175
02:00:29,440 --> 02:00:32,680
Speaker 5: Lewis loves to find, right, is this guy named Paul Pedesta?

2176
02:00:33,720 --> 02:00:35,480
Speaker 5: Can he is? He is like one of the main

2177
02:00:35,520 --> 02:00:37,320
Speaker 5: figures in this book. He's like, he's kind of like

2178
02:00:37,320 --> 02:00:40,080
Speaker 5: an assistant coach. Basically, what baseball team is this? Oh?

2179
02:00:40,080 --> 02:00:43,200
Speaker 5: This is the Oakland Athletics are now the last Vegas

2180
02:00:43,240 --> 02:00:44,920
Speaker 5: Athletics or some shit. I don't know that they moved

2181
02:00:44,960 --> 02:00:45,280
Speaker 5: to Vegas.

2182
02:00:45,280 --> 02:00:47,160
Speaker 4: I don't know what they're called the athletics now.

2183
02:00:47,280 --> 02:00:48,920
Speaker 5: No, No, they are originally called the Athletics. I don't

2184
02:00:48,920 --> 02:00:50,800
Speaker 5: know what they're called now. They've always been the except

2185
02:00:50,920 --> 02:00:53,520
Speaker 5: just calls them the Oakland A's. They've been the A's forever.

2186
02:00:53,560 --> 02:00:56,840
Speaker 5: But yeah, they've they've they've also been stolen. Las Vegas

2187
02:00:56,880 --> 02:00:59,200
Speaker 5: has now stolen both the football team and the baseball

2188
02:00:59,240 --> 02:01:01,080
Speaker 5: team oft.

2189
02:01:00,520 --> 02:01:02,880
Speaker 4: Oh see, I was thinking of the football team, yeah,

2190
02:01:03,040 --> 02:01:05,240
Speaker 4: because I was like, wait a minute, didn't didn't Las

2191
02:01:05,280 --> 02:01:06,920
Speaker 4: Vegasts go there too?

2192
02:01:07,200 --> 02:01:09,200
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, they stole both of them.

2193
02:01:09,240 --> 02:01:11,600
Speaker 4: That's what I was thinking. And I am more of

2194
02:01:11,600 --> 02:01:13,480
Speaker 4: a baseball head than a football head.

2195
02:01:13,560 --> 02:01:15,480
Speaker 5: But yeah, so okay, unfortunately we're gonna be talking about

2196
02:01:15,520 --> 02:01:18,680
Speaker 5: football here. So this guy, right, Paul Padesta's like one

2197
02:01:18,720 --> 02:01:21,760
Speaker 5: of these sort of geniuses. She later goes on to

2198
02:01:21,920 --> 02:01:25,120
Speaker 5: be It's kind of unclear exactly what he was doing

2199
02:01:25,120 --> 02:01:28,240
Speaker 5: in the organization, but he is hired by the just

2200
02:01:28,400 --> 02:01:33,120
Speaker 5: absolutely wretched the football franchise, the Cleveland Browns. Now to

2201
02:01:33,120 --> 02:01:35,560
Speaker 5: get an understanding of how wretched the Cleveland Browns are.

2202
02:01:35,920 --> 02:01:37,960
Speaker 5: My opening savment for him on the Browns is it

2203
02:01:38,080 --> 02:01:42,240
Speaker 5: is genuinely unclear how responsible Paul Podesta is for the

2204
02:01:42,280 --> 02:01:44,680
Speaker 5: Browns over the course of two seasons, going one in

2205
02:01:44,800 --> 02:01:48,840
Speaker 5: thirty one, which is a feat of like just absolutely

2206
02:01:48,880 --> 02:01:52,400
Speaker 5: sucking shit that is unrivaled in any other major American sports.

2207
02:01:52,520 --> 02:01:55,160
Speaker 5: I think until the fucking moon crashes into the Earth,

2208
02:01:55,760 --> 02:01:58,440
Speaker 5: no one is going to fucking go one in thirty

2209
02:01:58,520 --> 02:02:01,160
Speaker 5: one into cruss two seasons football again. So again that

2210
02:02:01,280 --> 02:02:03,880
Speaker 5: is a one in fifteen season, followed by an owen

2211
02:02:04,000 --> 02:02:06,680
Speaker 5: sixteen season. It's the second oh to sixteen season. Ever,

2212
02:02:07,320 --> 02:02:09,680
Speaker 5: unclear how responsible for this he is, but what he

2213
02:02:09,760 --> 02:02:13,800
Speaker 5: is responsible for is the Shawn Watson trade. Okay, it's

2214
02:02:13,840 --> 02:02:15,080
Speaker 5: like mea, why the fuck you're talking about?

2215
02:02:15,080 --> 02:02:15,200
Speaker 1: This?

2216
02:02:15,200 --> 02:02:17,360
Speaker 5: Part of this is also like these people are just evil.

2217
02:02:18,040 --> 02:02:21,600
Speaker 5: Deshaun Watson is a serial sexual predator. I couldn't get

2218
02:02:21,600 --> 02:02:25,000
Speaker 5: an accurate estimate of how many women, specifically massage therapists

2219
02:02:25,000 --> 02:02:27,360
Speaker 5: mostly have accused him of sexual assault. He is like

2220
02:02:27,400 --> 02:02:29,880
Speaker 5: one of the worst people in the entire NFL, which

2221
02:02:29,920 --> 02:02:32,520
Speaker 5: is a league of a lot of people who absolutely

2222
02:02:32,520 --> 02:02:35,200
Speaker 5: fucking suck shit. So so that that's the first thing

2223
02:02:35,200 --> 02:02:37,520
Speaker 5: you have to understand about Watson's that he is just

2224
02:02:38,120 --> 02:02:41,720
Speaker 5: really fucking like morally reprehensible, right. He is like a

2225
02:02:41,720 --> 02:02:44,760
Speaker 5: bad enough sexual predator that the NFL actually fucking suspended

2226
02:02:44,800 --> 02:02:48,800
Speaker 5: him for a season. And Paul Podesta, who again is

2227
02:02:48,840 --> 02:02:51,560
Speaker 5: the guy whom Michael Lewis is supposed to be like touting,

2228
02:02:51,640 --> 02:02:54,920
Speaker 5: is like this genius analytics guy, decides that he is

2229
02:02:55,000 --> 02:02:56,800
Speaker 5: going to set up this deal for his team to

2230
02:02:56,840 --> 02:02:59,120
Speaker 5: trade for Deshaun Watson, who've been on the Texans, And again,

2231
02:02:59,160 --> 02:03:02,400
Speaker 5: like Garrison, like, imagine how evil you have to be

2232
02:03:02,480 --> 02:03:07,800
Speaker 5: for the Houston Texans to trade you on fucking moral grounds.

2233
02:03:07,560 --> 02:03:09,720
Speaker 4: Nia, do you expect me to know anything about the

2234
02:03:09,800 --> 02:03:10,879
Speaker 4: Houston Texans.

2235
02:03:10,920 --> 02:03:14,320
Speaker 5: It is a team from Houston, Texas. That's all you

2236
02:03:14,360 --> 02:03:16,960
Speaker 5: need to know about this. And they traded this guy.

2237
02:03:17,160 --> 02:03:20,080
Speaker 4: Hey, at least it's not Austin. No offense to our

2238
02:03:20,160 --> 02:03:21,560
Speaker 4: Austin listeners.

2239
02:03:21,320 --> 02:03:25,480
Speaker 5: They fucking traded this guy, right, and Popadesa orchestrates this

2240
02:03:25,560 --> 02:03:28,320
Speaker 5: trade that is three is it is the worst trade

2241
02:03:28,320 --> 02:03:30,960
Speaker 5: in the history of football. It is three first round picks,

2242
02:03:31,000 --> 02:03:33,320
Speaker 5: two thirds, two third round picks, and a fourth round pick.

2243
02:03:33,600 --> 02:03:35,240
Speaker 5: And they hand this guy who, again I kind of

2244
02:03:35,240 --> 02:03:38,840
Speaker 5: emphasize this enough, is a serial sexual predator, right, they

2245
02:03:38,880 --> 02:03:43,200
Speaker 5: hand him two hundred and thirty million guaranteed dollars, the

2246
02:03:43,280 --> 02:03:46,600
Speaker 5: largest guaranteed salary the history of the NFL. So, okay, So,

2247
02:03:46,720 --> 02:03:48,960
Speaker 5: how does Deshaun Watson, like again, this guy who's being

2248
02:03:49,000 --> 02:03:51,400
Speaker 5: held up by the guy who like is now laundering

2249
02:03:51,520 --> 02:03:53,680
Speaker 5: being a gamer as like the great symbol of sort

2250
02:03:53,720 --> 02:03:57,000
Speaker 5: of like cultural like being a rogue outsider. Right, how

2251
02:03:57,080 --> 02:04:00,280
Speaker 5: does Deshaun Watson his like greatest fucking project to do

2252
02:04:00,400 --> 02:04:02,800
Speaker 5: on the field. So in his first season, he basically

2253
02:04:02,800 --> 02:04:06,800
Speaker 5: got injured immediately. It is second season in weeks one

2254
02:04:06,840 --> 02:04:09,760
Speaker 5: through five out of out of seven hundred and fifty

2255
02:04:09,880 --> 02:04:13,640
Speaker 5: nine quarterbacks. Since the year two thousand, to start weeks

2256
02:04:13,640 --> 02:04:16,160
Speaker 5: one through five out of again seven hundred and fifty

2257
02:04:16,240 --> 02:04:20,320
Speaker 5: nine quarterbacks, he ranks seven hundred and fifty three out

2258
02:04:20,320 --> 02:04:24,640
Speaker 5: of seven hundred and fifty nine EPA for dropback seven

2259
02:04:24,760 --> 02:04:27,360
Speaker 5: hundred and fifty three out of seven hundred and fifty nine.

2260
02:04:27,400 --> 02:04:30,600
Speaker 5: They traded three first round picks for this guy. He

2261
02:04:30,680 --> 02:04:34,120
Speaker 5: has a mind boggling an EPA of negative point three,

2262
02:04:34,320 --> 02:04:36,880
Speaker 5: which means every time the serial sexual predator drops back

2263
02:04:36,920 --> 02:04:39,720
Speaker 5: to make a pass, they are expected to get point

2264
02:04:39,760 --> 02:04:42,760
Speaker 5: three less points than an average team would.

2265
02:04:43,360 --> 02:04:46,880
Speaker 4: How did you trick me into being on a sports episode?

2266
02:04:47,240 --> 02:04:49,040
Speaker 4: I only agreed to this because I thought it was

2267
02:04:49,200 --> 02:04:49,800
Speaker 4: video game.

2268
02:04:50,200 --> 02:04:52,600
Speaker 5: Don't worry. We're we're we're we're almost We're almost done

2269
02:04:52,640 --> 02:04:54,600
Speaker 5: with the sports part of it. But there, I promise

2270
02:04:54,680 --> 02:04:57,520
Speaker 5: there is actually a reason why I'm doing this, which

2271
02:04:57,560 --> 02:04:59,600
Speaker 5: is which is the argument, that's that that sports and

2272
02:04:59,600 --> 02:05:02,360
Speaker 5: the sport and gaming actually serve very very similar cultural

2273
02:05:02,440 --> 02:05:06,400
Speaker 5: roles for the right. Yeah, of course, yes, I understand that.

2274
02:05:06,640 --> 02:05:09,160
Speaker 5: I can I can see that. Yes. Also, I've always

2275
02:05:09,200 --> 02:05:10,880
Speaker 5: wanted to fuck you complained about this on area and

2276
02:05:10,880 --> 02:05:12,400
Speaker 5: this is this is the best fucky chance I've ever

2277
02:05:12,400 --> 02:05:15,000
Speaker 5: gonna get, So Jesus fucking because it's like what I

2278
02:05:15,120 --> 02:05:17,960
Speaker 5: talk about, like movies or something. Is this, yes, yes,

2279
02:05:18,080 --> 02:05:19,760
Speaker 5: this is what it feels like. Is this what they

2280
02:05:19,880 --> 02:05:22,800
Speaker 5: sound like? Yes? It is it is absolutely what you

2281
02:05:22,840 --> 02:05:26,200
Speaker 5: sound like. So this guy is like a generationally awful quarterback,

2282
02:05:26,240 --> 02:05:28,480
Speaker 5: they sign away basically the entire future of this team

2283
02:05:28,800 --> 02:05:30,920
Speaker 5: hand this guy who is a serial sexual predator two

2284
02:05:30,960 --> 02:05:33,040
Speaker 5: hundred and thirty million dollars. And this is the guy

2285
02:05:33,520 --> 02:05:35,760
Speaker 5: that fucking Michael Lewis expects you to think is like

2286
02:05:35,800 --> 02:05:39,920
Speaker 5: a fucking analytics genius. And this all comes back to again, like,

2287
02:05:40,600 --> 02:05:43,240
Speaker 5: you know, the sort of mythology, the basic mythology of

2288
02:05:43,280 --> 02:05:46,200
Speaker 5: the nerd is that they're like picked on, like by

2289
02:05:46,280 --> 02:05:48,080
Speaker 5: the jock or whatever. Right, That's like that's like the

2290
02:05:48,080 --> 02:05:50,240
Speaker 5: fundamental base of their mythology that there's are like oppressed

2291
02:05:50,240 --> 02:05:53,680
Speaker 5: by this. But like it's just like the same masculinity

2292
02:05:53,720 --> 02:05:56,720
Speaker 5: bullshit all the way down. And you can watch like

2293
02:05:56,920 --> 02:06:00,280
Speaker 5: just like the worst people in fucking history just trick

2294
02:06:00,360 --> 02:06:03,720
Speaker 5: literally exactly the same people into thinking that they're fucking

2295
02:06:03,800 --> 02:06:08,080
Speaker 5: geniuses by using both of these fucking affects. So I

2296
02:06:08,120 --> 02:06:10,240
Speaker 5: want to read something, you know, in looking at the

2297
02:06:10,280 --> 02:06:13,880
Speaker 5: way that this stuff functions, the way that gaming functions,

2298
02:06:13,920 --> 02:06:17,720
Speaker 5: like specifically in the culture, and you know why these

2299
02:06:17,720 --> 02:06:21,240
Speaker 5: people choose to use gaming as like, you know, as

2300
02:06:21,280 --> 02:06:23,360
Speaker 5: as this sort of affect they're trying to project into

2301
02:06:23,360 --> 02:06:25,520
Speaker 5: the world. I want to read something by a friend

2302
02:06:25,520 --> 02:06:28,120
Speaker 5: of the show Vicky Osterweil, and a piece called game Boys.

2303
02:06:29,280 --> 02:06:32,720
Speaker 5: Video games also emerge at a time when technology facilitates

2304
02:06:32,760 --> 02:06:37,680
Speaker 5: an increasingly administered life in which alienation and isolation feel

2305
02:06:37,680 --> 02:06:41,400
Speaker 5: like a prerequisite to social engagement. Consumer choice is a

2306
02:06:41,440 --> 02:06:46,120
Speaker 5: form of control. An unbounded economic competition produces widespread anxiety

2307
02:06:46,760 --> 02:06:50,280
Speaker 5: to structure as pleasurable the repetition, learning, and boredom that

2308
02:06:50,320 --> 02:06:54,520
Speaker 5: one was master to live under current economic conditions. Games

2309
02:06:54,520 --> 02:06:57,640
Speaker 5: rely on affects, moods, and ideas that are capable of

2310
02:06:57,680 --> 02:07:01,440
Speaker 5: producing not only forms of violence directed towards non normative groups,

2311
02:07:01,920 --> 02:07:05,400
Speaker 5: but also forms of intimacy, fantasy, and play that point

2312
02:07:05,480 --> 02:07:10,320
Speaker 5: towards the horizon outside of capital's clutches. Games provide different

2313
02:07:10,360 --> 02:07:13,640
Speaker 5: compensations for people who are differently situated in the social hierarchy.

2314
02:07:14,160 --> 02:07:18,720
Speaker 5: They give white men aggrandizing power, inventions fantasies that modulate

2315
02:07:18,760 --> 02:07:21,560
Speaker 5: their sense of self importance under conditions that disempower them,

2316
02:07:21,960 --> 02:07:24,600
Speaker 5: but they are also capable of giving everyone else the

2317
02:07:24,600 --> 02:07:28,640
Speaker 5: fantasy of an alternative to white supremacist patriarchal capitalism. This

2318
02:07:28,720 --> 02:07:31,800
Speaker 5: has been particularly clear in how queer creators, writers, and

2319
02:07:31,880 --> 02:07:34,640
Speaker 5: fans have found space in and around games despite the

2320
02:07:34,760 --> 02:07:39,760
Speaker 5: organized harassment campaigns, intensely misogynist industry advertising campaigns, and widespread

2321
02:07:39,800 --> 02:07:42,600
Speaker 5: critical and cultural degradation of games that aren't played by

2322
02:07:42,600 --> 02:07:45,840
Speaker 5: CIS men. So I think the important thing here, and

2323
02:07:45,840 --> 02:07:48,480
Speaker 5: this is something important to remember both for Samba Been

2324
02:07:48,480 --> 02:07:51,640
Speaker 5: Freed and also for the construction of right wing gaming

2325
02:07:51,680 --> 02:07:54,040
Speaker 5: movements in general, and for what we're going to talk

2326
02:07:54,040 --> 02:07:58,960
Speaker 5: about with Elon Musk, is that gaming is contested ground. Right.

2327
02:07:59,000 --> 02:08:01,960
Speaker 5: As much as we think of as like right wingers, right,

2328
02:08:02,120 --> 02:08:04,520
Speaker 5: there are a lot of what you would call it

2329
02:08:04,520 --> 02:08:07,400
Speaker 5: to like traditionally sort of leftlooming demographics that play video

2330
02:08:07,440 --> 02:08:10,360
Speaker 5: games and have made spaces here because as much as

2331
02:08:10,360 --> 02:08:12,879
Speaker 5: they are in some ways like this force of discipline

2332
02:08:12,920 --> 02:08:15,600
Speaker 5: that like is something that you learn, the kinds of

2333
02:08:15,760 --> 02:08:18,960
Speaker 5: like ability to tolerate boredom and repetition and things like

2334
02:08:19,000 --> 02:08:22,280
Speaker 5: that that you know you use for fucking work, they're

2335
02:08:22,400 --> 02:08:26,640
Speaker 5: also a thing that people use to like escape the

2336
02:08:26,720 --> 02:08:29,960
Speaker 5: fucking hell world totally. And like, I mean I know

2337
02:08:30,040 --> 02:08:33,160
Speaker 5: this right, Like I am fucking like I'm a Chinese

2338
02:08:33,200 --> 02:08:35,320
Speaker 5: chance of better, he's better at video games, and both

2339
02:08:35,400 --> 02:08:37,120
Speaker 5: the people have been to be fucking talking about in

2340
02:08:37,160 --> 02:08:39,560
Speaker 5: this story, right, Like, well, I heard, I heard his Path.

2341
02:08:39,400 --> 02:08:41,480
Speaker 4: Of Exile character was actually quite advanced.

2342
02:08:41,560 --> 02:08:43,400
Speaker 5: But we're gonna we're gonna talk about the Path of

2343
02:08:43,400 --> 02:08:45,840
Speaker 5: Exile character fucking next, you know. But but I mean,

2344
02:08:45,840 --> 02:08:48,320
Speaker 5: it's it's worth mentioning, like speed running, right, which is

2345
02:08:48,360 --> 02:08:51,160
Speaker 5: a very very trans genre.

2346
02:08:50,960 --> 02:08:54,960
Speaker 4: Competitive gaming in general, competitive fighting games.

2347
02:08:54,120 --> 02:08:56,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, it depends. It depends a lot on the genre.

2348
02:08:56,120 --> 02:08:59,440
Speaker 5: But again, like competitive fighting games like yeah, Melee, I mean,

2349
02:08:59,440 --> 02:09:01,920
Speaker 5: I'm gonna brief mentioned Sonic Fox, who is a black,

2350
02:09:01,960 --> 02:09:04,040
Speaker 5: non binary furry who's like one of the greatest fighting

2351
02:09:04,040 --> 02:09:08,800
Speaker 5: game players of all time, incredibly beloved, the only person

2352
02:09:08,800 --> 02:09:11,080
Speaker 5: in history ever to beat someone thirteen to zero in

2353
02:09:11,080 --> 02:09:14,000
Speaker 5: a first to eleven absolute legends, right, But you know,

2354
02:09:14,120 --> 02:09:16,720
Speaker 5: these are the people that these sort of like fascist

2355
02:09:16,760 --> 02:09:19,560
Speaker 5: adjacent people are trying to drive out so they can

2356
02:09:19,720 --> 02:09:21,640
Speaker 5: use gaming as like as a sort of cultural force.

2357
02:09:21,680 --> 02:09:26,000
Speaker 5: And this functions both in gaming and also fuck it

2358
02:09:26,040 --> 02:09:27,920
Speaker 5: in real life. Right now that these people are in power,

2359
02:09:28,320 --> 02:09:29,840
Speaker 5: and you know who else is in power, it's a

2360
02:09:29,840 --> 02:09:43,160
Speaker 5: product and services to support this podcast, All Hail, we

2361
02:09:43,400 --> 02:09:47,280
Speaker 5: are back now. Obviously, the other part of this. You know,

2362
02:09:47,280 --> 02:09:49,640
Speaker 5: we've talked about we've talked mostly sort of about racial politics,

2363
02:09:49,680 --> 02:09:52,480
Speaker 5: but there's there's an incredible sort of gender politics in gaming.

2364
02:09:53,080 --> 02:09:55,040
Speaker 5: And you know, the thing about gaming, right is that

2365
02:09:55,160 --> 02:09:59,360
Speaker 5: it is to some extent a tool that people use

2366
02:09:59,440 --> 02:10:02,000
Speaker 5: to cope with, like, you know, the realization of the

2367
02:10:02,040 --> 02:10:04,200
Speaker 5: violence of the gender system. And like I am also

2368
02:10:04,280 --> 02:10:07,960
Speaker 5: doing this as much as the fucking weird white guy

2369
02:10:08,080 --> 02:10:09,720
Speaker 5: nazi like gamer dip shit.

2370
02:10:09,840 --> 02:10:12,920
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, that's why I ooed up f F seven

2371
02:10:13,320 --> 02:10:15,880
Speaker 4: remake Hysteric Cloud Strife for hours on end when I'm

2372
02:10:15,880 --> 02:10:16,520
Speaker 4: feeling sad.

2373
02:10:18,160 --> 02:10:21,040
Speaker 5: But you know what the problem with what's happening here, right,

2374
02:10:21,120 --> 02:10:23,880
Speaker 5: is that, like the right, like that we're experiencing violence

2375
02:10:23,880 --> 02:10:27,360
Speaker 5: in different ways, but it's like the systemic violence from

2376
02:10:27,400 --> 02:10:30,040
Speaker 5: the gender system that is the same system, but these

2377
02:10:30,080 --> 02:10:32,440
Speaker 5: people's solution to is to blame it on women, right,

2378
02:10:33,280 --> 02:10:34,600
Speaker 5: And this is you know, I had a conversation with

2379
02:10:34,680 --> 02:10:36,000
Speaker 5: Vicky about this where a lot of this stuff is

2380
02:10:36,000 --> 02:10:38,760
Speaker 5: sort of drawn from and like I would compare it

2381
02:10:38,800 --> 02:10:41,240
Speaker 5: to like, you know, lots and lots of people deal

2382
02:10:41,320 --> 02:10:44,440
Speaker 5: with social isolation, right and and deal with this violence.

2383
02:10:44,480 --> 02:10:46,320
Speaker 5: But like you know, on the other hand, most of

2384
02:10:46,360 --> 02:10:49,720
Speaker 5: us don't become mass shooters most most Yeah, I would

2385
02:10:49,720 --> 02:10:52,400
Speaker 5: say that's that's true. Yeah, right, and so and so

2386
02:10:52,440 --> 02:10:54,360
Speaker 5: we can look at the structural forces that produces people

2387
02:10:54,360 --> 02:10:56,680
Speaker 5: and also just go like fuck them, like eat shit,

2388
02:10:56,920 --> 02:10:59,720
Speaker 5: like I'm sorry, you've you've become Nazis, like fuck off.

2389
02:10:59,520 --> 02:11:03,480
Speaker 4: Skillish you in some ways among other environmental factors.

2390
02:11:03,600 --> 02:11:05,440
Speaker 5: But yeah, yeah, but but also a lot of times

2391
02:11:05,480 --> 02:11:08,720
Speaker 5: these people aren't fucking like they're not dealing with shit

2392
02:11:08,840 --> 02:11:11,000
Speaker 5: at all, mostly, right, I mean like yeah, like okay,

2393
02:11:11,040 --> 02:11:13,960
Speaker 5: like Elon Musk's weird insecurity is to some extent because

2394
02:11:13,960 --> 02:11:15,680
Speaker 5: of the gender system, right, but like, also he is

2395
02:11:15,720 --> 02:11:17,800
Speaker 5: the richest man in the world, He's the most powerful

2396
02:11:17,800 --> 02:11:19,840
Speaker 5: man live, He's one of the most powerful people who

2397
02:11:19,840 --> 02:11:23,920
Speaker 5: has ever lived. And he still has the same sense

2398
02:11:24,000 --> 02:11:27,480
Speaker 5: of like aggrievement that powers all these people. And this

2399
02:11:27,600 --> 02:11:29,200
Speaker 5: is like one of the key things of like the

2400
02:11:29,240 --> 02:11:32,640
Speaker 5: gamer mythos, right, is that these people constantly believe that

2401
02:11:32,640 --> 02:11:35,280
Speaker 5: they're being oppressed by like jocks or whatever. And now

2402
02:11:35,440 --> 02:11:38,080
Speaker 5: it's it's been shifted into this not anymore. Yeah, Now

2403
02:11:38,200 --> 02:11:40,160
Speaker 5: now they believe that they're that they're being oppressed by

2404
02:11:40,240 --> 02:11:43,080
Speaker 5: like fucking women in minorities, right.

2405
02:11:43,080 --> 02:11:45,360
Speaker 4: And and it's actually the people who actually doing the

2406
02:11:45,360 --> 02:11:48,520
Speaker 4: oppression is now all of the doge nerds at.

2407
02:11:48,360 --> 02:11:49,879
Speaker 5: The top of the system.

2408
02:11:49,960 --> 02:11:51,760
Speaker 4: Now it's it's been we have we've had we've had

2409
02:11:51,760 --> 02:11:53,760
Speaker 4: a we've had a full Uno reverso.

2410
02:11:54,000 --> 02:11:55,440
Speaker 5: But the thing is, these people have always been at

2411
02:11:55,440 --> 02:11:57,160
Speaker 5: the top of the fucking system, right and like, But

2412
02:11:57,160 --> 02:11:59,080
Speaker 5: but it's this a fetny whis it's this it's this

2413
02:11:59,120 --> 02:12:01,560
Speaker 5: feeling they have of them being the ones who are

2414
02:12:01,560 --> 02:12:04,040
Speaker 5: oppressed that like you know, made them into the shock

2415
02:12:04,080 --> 02:12:06,120
Speaker 5: troopers that we saw with Gamergate. If you're gonna read

2416
02:12:06,120 --> 02:12:07,760
Speaker 5: one viciosc wral thing, and I'm signing her a lot

2417
02:12:07,760 --> 02:12:09,240
Speaker 5: because I think she's done a lot of the best

2418
02:12:09,880 --> 02:12:12,320
Speaker 5: critical reporting on video games, which is a field that

2419
02:12:13,040 --> 02:12:15,880
Speaker 5: I feel like we just haven't done much critical shit with. Like,

2420
02:12:15,920 --> 02:12:17,760
Speaker 5: I mean, there's been lots of stuff about working conditions

2421
02:12:17,760 --> 02:12:20,000
Speaker 5: in the games industry which are fucking terrible, and it's good,

2422
02:12:20,040 --> 02:12:22,960
Speaker 5: but like, as a medium, there hasn't been anywhere near

2423
02:12:23,000 --> 02:12:24,960
Speaker 5: as much critical engagement with it as there's been with

2424
02:12:25,000 --> 02:12:28,280
Speaker 5: like film or music. But if you're gonna read one

2425
02:12:28,320 --> 02:12:30,600
Speaker 5: thing from her, read a piece called goon Squad, which

2426
02:12:30,600 --> 02:12:33,600
Speaker 5: is about the sort of like fascist reaction to the

2427
02:12:33,640 --> 02:12:36,920
Speaker 5: really broken state of Cyberpunk twenty seventy seven when it

2428
02:12:36,920 --> 02:12:39,640
Speaker 5: came out. And one of the arguments that she makes

2429
02:12:39,720 --> 02:12:41,800
Speaker 5: is that these gamers are being i mean literally being

2430
02:12:41,880 --> 02:12:44,080
Speaker 5: used is like scabs and pinkertons against people who make

2431
02:12:44,120 --> 02:12:46,520
Speaker 5: video games, and you know, and this expands out to

2432
02:12:46,680 --> 02:12:49,240
Speaker 5: like workers more broadly, they're literally being used to silence

2433
02:12:49,240 --> 02:12:51,600
Speaker 5: anyone who talks about the problems with like this game

2434
02:12:51,600 --> 02:12:54,120
Speaker 5: that like when Cyberpink twenty seventy seven came out, it

2435
02:12:54,160 --> 02:12:57,200
Speaker 5: was literally giving people seizures because it was it had

2436
02:12:57,280 --> 02:12:59,680
Speaker 5: just like fucking strobing flashes and bullshit anthe they didn't

2437
02:12:59,680 --> 02:13:02,360
Speaker 5: want any one about because it was a broken, shitty game.

2438
02:13:03,080 --> 02:13:05,200
Speaker 5: And you know, they're also used for just like anti

2439
02:13:05,280 --> 02:13:08,040
Speaker 5: queer and like anti feminist rasping campaigns, and that's that's

2440
02:13:08,080 --> 02:13:11,440
Speaker 5: how they're sort of mobilized in real life too, And

2441
02:13:11,520 --> 02:13:14,120
Speaker 5: and that gives you an insight into why these people

2442
02:13:14,160 --> 02:13:16,440
Speaker 5: sort of like do this signaling, right, is that they're

2443
02:13:16,440 --> 02:13:19,440
Speaker 5: also like signaling to their base that like I am

2444
02:13:19,440 --> 02:13:21,160
Speaker 5: one of you, et cetera, et cetera, Like you should

2445
02:13:21,200 --> 02:13:24,800
Speaker 5: fucking support me for this shit now. Pivoting a little bit.

2446
02:13:24,840 --> 02:13:27,000
Speaker 5: So when I was first talking about this episode, I

2447
02:13:27,080 --> 02:13:29,120
Speaker 5: kept on accidentally saying Sam Altman as that of Sam

2448
02:13:29,200 --> 02:13:30,640
Speaker 5: Bankman freed because like man.

2449
02:13:30,600 --> 02:13:31,960
Speaker 4: They said, yeah, many such cases.

2450
02:13:32,080 --> 02:13:35,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, like the last the last fucking white boy scammer

2451
02:13:35,600 --> 02:13:39,680
Speaker 5: named Sam has been replaced by an additional subsequent white

2452
02:13:39,680 --> 02:13:42,440
Speaker 5: boy scammer named Sam. And it turns out though I

2453
02:13:42,480 --> 02:13:44,720
Speaker 5: looked up Sam Altman and he has also been doing

2454
02:13:44,760 --> 02:13:48,520
Speaker 5: this like gamer stick thing, like specifically in interviews with

2455
02:13:48,560 --> 02:13:49,200
Speaker 5: Elon Musk.

2456
02:13:49,360 --> 02:13:49,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2457
02:13:49,720 --> 02:13:52,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's fascinating. They're both fucking doing it now. And

2458
02:13:53,160 --> 02:13:57,280
Speaker 5: this brings us to the man who has spent the

2459
02:13:57,280 --> 02:14:00,640
Speaker 5: most time publicly lying about fucking video games recently, which

2460
02:14:00,680 --> 02:14:04,480
Speaker 5: is Elon Musk. Elon Musk is like not really a gamer.

2461
02:14:05,040 --> 02:14:08,480
Speaker 5: I would say, like he sort of plays video games.

2462
02:14:08,880 --> 02:14:12,960
Speaker 4: He's a Kenemine user. He's a Twitter power user. He

2463
02:14:13,120 --> 02:14:14,440
Speaker 4: is the shadow President.

2464
02:14:15,320 --> 02:14:17,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, the regis man of the World's ridges man who

2465
02:14:17,360 --> 02:14:17,880
Speaker 5: has ever lived.

2466
02:14:17,960 --> 02:14:18,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2467
02:14:18,280 --> 02:14:21,320
Speaker 5: Also, he is really obsessed with everyone thinking that he

2468
02:14:21,400 --> 02:14:23,600
Speaker 5: is like a he's an elite video game player in

2469
02:14:23,640 --> 02:14:25,640
Speaker 5: like multiple games. He's obsessed with this.

2470
02:14:25,720 --> 02:14:28,400
Speaker 4: He's also I believe the term is a meme. Lord

2471
02:14:28,920 --> 02:14:30,160
Speaker 4: h if I'm reading this right.

2472
02:14:30,480 --> 02:14:32,760
Speaker 5: Oh god, what one of his path of xtyle two

2473
02:14:32,800 --> 02:14:34,680
Speaker 5: characters I didn't put in the script because it's actually

2474
02:14:34,720 --> 02:14:36,080
Speaker 5: not the one we're gonna talk about, but one of

2475
02:14:36,080 --> 02:14:39,320
Speaker 5: his characters in that game was named Kekius Maximus, So like,

2476
02:14:39,400 --> 02:14:40,800
Speaker 5: this is the level of mind.

2477
02:14:40,680 --> 02:14:43,200
Speaker 4: That uh, that is one of his favorite names. In

2478
02:14:43,240 --> 02:14:45,760
Speaker 4: his White House office, he has a he has a

2479
02:14:45,840 --> 02:14:50,120
Speaker 4: Kechius Maximus portrait hanging behind his desk. There's an AI

2480
02:14:50,240 --> 02:14:52,760
Speaker 4: generated image of like pet bite the Frog and like

2481
02:14:53,040 --> 02:14:57,520
Speaker 4: and like Roman, like like Caesar at higher I hate everything. So, yeah,

2482
02:14:57,560 --> 02:14:59,080
Speaker 4: this is the guy who reads the country now.

2483
02:14:59,320 --> 02:15:00,000
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2484
02:15:00,040 --> 02:15:00,360
Speaker 3: Oops.

2485
02:15:00,920 --> 02:15:02,840
Speaker 5: So Elon Musk has been lying about being good at

2486
02:15:02,880 --> 02:15:05,880
Speaker 5: video games, and the preface to everything we're going to

2487
02:15:05,880 --> 02:15:08,480
Speaker 5: get to you is that he has. Actually he's like

2488
02:15:08,600 --> 02:15:11,120
Speaker 5: for a long time been doing a like I'm a

2489
02:15:11,120 --> 02:15:14,160
Speaker 5: gamer thing. So his his kind of problems, and I

2490
02:15:14,160 --> 02:15:17,200
Speaker 5: think really the origin of the weird paying people to

2491
02:15:17,200 --> 02:15:19,200
Speaker 5: make him look like he's good at video games thing

2492
02:15:19,240 --> 02:15:21,200
Speaker 5: that we're gonna get you in a second. This is

2493
02:15:21,240 --> 02:15:23,400
Speaker 5: something that that Blue Sky user gay Dog reminded me

2494
02:15:23,440 --> 02:15:25,640
Speaker 5: of because I'd forgot he has so many gaming scandals

2495
02:15:25,640 --> 02:15:29,560
Speaker 5: i'd forgotten about this one, which is that he at

2496
02:15:29,560 --> 02:15:32,480
Speaker 5: one point posted his build for the hit game Elden Ring,

2497
02:15:32,600 --> 02:15:36,200
Speaker 5: which is very difficult game, and he had two different

2498
02:15:36,240 --> 02:15:41,280
Speaker 5: shields equipped, which makes literally no sense. It's like over encumbered,

2499
02:15:41,760 --> 02:15:46,120
Speaker 5: Like it's okay, like the best expianation I've tried to

2500
02:15:46,360 --> 02:15:48,680
Speaker 5: I figured out for Like how bad at this game

2501
02:15:48,720 --> 02:15:51,640
Speaker 5: he is? Is that posting this build on Twitter is

2502
02:15:51,680 --> 02:15:54,280
Speaker 5: the video game equivalent of going like, hey, look at

2503
02:15:54,320 --> 02:15:56,600
Speaker 5: my fucking sports car. It's stepping into like the shittiest

2504
02:15:56,600 --> 02:15:59,640
Speaker 5: call you've ever seen, and then like slamming the accelerator

2505
02:15:59,680 --> 02:16:00,760
Speaker 5: with the working break on.

2506
02:16:01,240 --> 02:16:03,840
Speaker 4: Hey, I love the masdamiata.

2507
02:16:03,480 --> 02:16:06,280
Speaker 5: Like that's that's like the gaming of criminals. And everyone

2508
02:16:06,280 --> 02:16:08,240
Speaker 5: who looked at it immediately was like, this is the

2509
02:16:08,320 --> 02:16:10,880
Speaker 5: dumbest man who has ever lived. This man has no

2510
02:16:10,960 --> 02:16:14,200
Speaker 5: idea what the fuck he's doing. He is just like

2511
02:16:14,200 --> 02:16:17,680
Speaker 5: like unable to understand basic fundamental systems about this game,

2512
02:16:18,200 --> 02:16:23,840
Speaker 5: like just baffling incomprehensible bullshit. And this was like kind

2513
02:16:23,840 --> 02:16:25,800
Speaker 5: of a scandal for him. It wasn't like a huge one,

2514
02:16:25,840 --> 02:16:27,720
Speaker 5: but like especially like this is one that sort of

2515
02:16:27,720 --> 02:16:29,720
Speaker 5: broke on to the left a lot, and people were

2516
02:16:29,720 --> 02:16:32,600
Speaker 5: giving him shit about it. So the next time he

2517
02:16:32,640 --> 02:16:35,320
Speaker 5: wanted to brag about having been good at video games,

2518
02:16:35,879 --> 02:16:38,959
Speaker 5: he very clearly like paid someone else to like accomplish

2519
02:16:38,959 --> 02:16:41,640
Speaker 5: some stuff in this game called Yelbo four. I'm not

2520
02:16:41,640 --> 02:16:43,520
Speaker 5: gonna talk about Dielbow stuff much because I'm a Path

2521
02:16:43,560 --> 02:16:45,360
Speaker 5: of Exile player and not diebol player. The dialbum and

2522
02:16:45,400 --> 02:16:47,240
Speaker 5: Path of x ale like Fairy much the same kind

2523
02:16:47,280 --> 02:16:50,280
Speaker 5: of game, basically, like you click somewhere and your character

2524
02:16:50,280 --> 02:16:52,879
Speaker 5: goes there and you click other things that it does attacks.

2525
02:16:53,800 --> 02:16:57,760
Speaker 5: But famously, like this year, he pretended to be one

2526
02:16:57,800 --> 02:17:00,720
Speaker 5: of like the best Path of Exile two players in

2527
02:17:00,760 --> 02:17:03,520
Speaker 5: the world, and he was doing this on his alt account,

2528
02:17:03,600 --> 02:17:07,760
Speaker 5: which is has to handle. It's Cybergamer for twenty, but

2529
02:17:07,879 --> 02:17:12,199
Speaker 5: the all the e's are threes, So with's CYB three

2530
02:17:12,480 --> 02:17:15,120
Speaker 5: r g A M three R four twenty.

2531
02:17:15,800 --> 02:17:18,440
Speaker 4: Wait wait wait, wait, say say that again.

2532
02:17:19,080 --> 02:17:26,359
Speaker 5: It's at CYB three r GA M three R four twenty.

2533
02:17:26,360 --> 02:17:29,520
Speaker 4: So I think I found something. I think the four

2534
02:17:29,520 --> 02:17:34,360
Speaker 4: to twenty at the end is actually a reference to

2535
02:17:34,440 --> 02:17:38,480
Speaker 4: Hitler's birthday April twenty God damn it.

2536
02:17:40,640 --> 02:17:44,040
Speaker 5: So okay, he like claims to have one of the

2537
02:17:44,120 --> 02:17:46,760
Speaker 5: like the best characters in hardcore, which is in mode

2538
02:17:46,800 --> 02:17:48,400
Speaker 5: of Path of Exile where if he die once you

2539
02:17:48,440 --> 02:17:51,280
Speaker 5: get kicked out of it. So it's very hard to

2540
02:17:51,400 --> 02:17:54,920
Speaker 5: like prove that he actually did this. He like does

2541
02:17:54,959 --> 02:17:57,400
Speaker 5: a live stream where he tries to play Path of Exile,

2542
02:17:58,080 --> 02:18:01,560
Speaker 5: like on a Twitter live stream, and it is immediately

2543
02:18:01,640 --> 02:18:03,640
Speaker 5: obvious that, like he has no idea what he's doing.

2544
02:18:04,080 --> 02:18:06,039
Speaker 5: Like it's not just obviously people who play the game.

2545
02:18:06,200 --> 02:18:08,040
Speaker 5: I hadn't played Path of XL to at this point, right,

2546
02:18:08,040 --> 02:18:10,560
Speaker 5: I had only played the original one like a decade ago,

2547
02:18:10,959 --> 02:18:13,080
Speaker 5: like a little bit of it, and I took one

2548
02:18:13,120 --> 02:18:14,840
Speaker 5: look at what he was doing and immediately was like,

2549
02:18:14,840 --> 02:18:17,000
Speaker 5: this guy has never played this game before, like has

2550
02:18:17,040 --> 02:18:19,400
Speaker 5: no idea what he's fucking doing. Like it was so

2551
02:18:19,520 --> 02:18:21,800
Speaker 5: unbelievably obvious, Like he like walked past one of those

2552
02:18:21,879 --> 02:18:24,240
Speaker 5: valuable currencies in the game, just like walk past it,

2553
02:18:24,320 --> 02:18:27,720
Speaker 5: didn't notice it. It's like staggeringly obvious anyone who plays

2554
02:18:27,760 --> 02:18:29,800
Speaker 5: video games, This guy has no idea what the fuck

2555
02:18:29,840 --> 02:18:33,800
Speaker 5: he's doing. And this actually explodes on him and eventually

2556
02:18:33,840 --> 02:18:37,120
Speaker 5: he's forced to reveal that he paid someone to level

2557
02:18:37,120 --> 02:18:38,560
Speaker 5: of his Path of Exil to account, and then he

2558
02:18:38,600 --> 02:18:40,520
Speaker 5: claims that he never claims that it was his path

2559
02:18:40,520 --> 02:18:45,640
Speaker 5: of xel to account, and this Jenny Weinley has been

2560
02:18:45,680 --> 02:18:49,560
Speaker 5: a real problem for him because it pissed off like

2561
02:18:49,640 --> 02:18:53,120
Speaker 5: the entire gaming scene. So you have videos with like

2562
02:18:53,200 --> 02:18:55,640
Speaker 5: millions of views from guys like Asthmagold, who was like

2563
02:18:55,680 --> 02:18:57,840
Speaker 5: a he's a very famous right wing streamer who like

2564
02:18:57,959 --> 02:19:01,800
Speaker 5: sucks ass, like is like a turbo right winger, like

2565
02:19:03,000 --> 02:19:07,400
Speaker 5: spends his time screaming about how like black people in

2566
02:19:07,520 --> 02:19:10,160
Speaker 5: video games is dei and woke and how it's destroying

2567
02:19:10,200 --> 02:19:14,320
Speaker 5: the video game industry and fucking asthma Goold is watching

2568
02:19:14,360 --> 02:19:16,119
Speaker 5: this video and being like this guy is a lying

2569
02:19:16,120 --> 02:19:19,879
Speaker 5: piece of shit, what the fuck? And like everyone fucking

2570
02:19:19,920 --> 02:19:24,000
Speaker 5: reacts like this. It's genuinely wild. I've never actually seen

2571
02:19:24,800 --> 02:19:28,600
Speaker 5: people like react to this, to like to elon like

2572
02:19:28,640 --> 02:19:30,440
Speaker 5: this and like like again, like this is his allies

2573
02:19:30,480 --> 02:19:33,920
Speaker 5: on the right taking one look at this and being like, wait,

2574
02:19:33,959 --> 02:19:39,199
Speaker 5: this guy's just like lying. Now. What's interesting about about

2575
02:19:39,200 --> 02:19:41,720
Speaker 5: this to some extent is that, like, again, his whole

2576
02:19:41,720 --> 02:19:43,520
Speaker 5: thing here is he's trying to like pretend that he's

2577
02:19:43,560 --> 02:19:45,520
Speaker 5: like a pro gamer or whatever, but his affect is

2578
02:19:45,520 --> 02:19:48,560
Speaker 5: still largely targeted towards non gamers in the sense that

2579
02:19:48,680 --> 02:19:51,600
Speaker 5: like there's no way, I mean, okay, I guess it

2580
02:19:51,680 --> 02:19:54,400
Speaker 5: is possible that he genuinely is so ignorant that he

2581
02:19:54,560 --> 02:19:56,200
Speaker 5: believed that he could just pretend to be a top

2582
02:19:56,240 --> 02:19:57,840
Speaker 5: of Little Pets of Path of Exile player on a

2583
02:19:57,879 --> 02:20:01,160
Speaker 5: stream using someone else's account, but like, there's no way

2584
02:20:01,160 --> 02:20:03,480
Speaker 5: anyone who plays video games could fall for that. And

2585
02:20:03,480 --> 02:20:05,199
Speaker 5: and a lot of people he talks to about the stuff,

2586
02:20:05,200 --> 02:20:09,520
Speaker 5: for people like Joe Rogan who aren't like gamer TM people, right,

2587
02:20:10,640 --> 02:20:11,840
Speaker 5: it's like a lot of it's a lot of people

2588
02:20:11,840 --> 02:20:13,480
Speaker 5: who aren't gamers. And he's like sort of hyping up

2589
02:20:13,480 --> 02:20:15,959
Speaker 5: his reputation with and so he's weirdly on the one hand, yeah,

2590
02:20:16,000 --> 02:20:18,440
Speaker 5: he is signaling to his sort of fascist bass, but

2591
02:20:18,480 --> 02:20:20,800
Speaker 5: on the other hand, he's trying to use the sort

2592
02:20:20,800 --> 02:20:23,480
Speaker 5: of like cultural cachet of of gaming as like the

2593
02:20:23,560 --> 02:20:27,000
Speaker 5: sort of renegade right wing phenomena to like launder his reputation.

2594
02:20:27,640 --> 02:20:31,160
Speaker 5: Except he fucked up because he, you know, spent all

2595
02:20:31,200 --> 02:20:34,680
Speaker 5: of this time trying to like pretend to be a gamer.

2596
02:20:34,720 --> 02:20:37,000
Speaker 5: But the thing about gamers is that like there is

2597
02:20:37,080 --> 02:20:40,400
Speaker 5: literally an entire genre of video like on YouTube that

2598
02:20:40,480 --> 02:20:43,320
Speaker 5: is very, very popular. That is just like people exposing

2599
02:20:43,320 --> 02:20:46,120
Speaker 5: people who cheat in video games and cheated records of

2600
02:20:46,200 --> 02:20:49,039
Speaker 5: video games. And Elon has walked just like directly into

2601
02:20:49,080 --> 02:20:50,600
Speaker 5: this bear trap, right.

2602
02:20:51,040 --> 02:20:55,080
Speaker 4: And that means we got him, folks, mission accomplished. Wrap

2603
02:20:55,120 --> 02:20:57,320
Speaker 4: it up, We beat Elon him.

2604
02:20:57,400 --> 02:20:57,959
Speaker 5: It's over.

2605
02:20:58,600 --> 02:21:01,879
Speaker 4: He's he's been cast out of civil society for the

2606
02:21:02,000 --> 02:21:06,720
Speaker 4: high crime of pretending to play a video game. He's

2607
02:21:06,840 --> 02:21:11,000
Speaker 4: lost all respect among among the farthest reaches of the right.

2608
02:21:12,000 --> 02:21:15,320
Speaker 5: So what's next? We have what he has? He has

2609
02:21:15,360 --> 02:21:17,080
Speaker 5: one more scandal that we actually have to talk about.

2610
02:21:17,200 --> 02:21:19,240
Speaker 4: Is this about the one video game he hasn't played?

2611
02:21:19,920 --> 02:21:23,920
Speaker 4: Which is the funniest Elon musk gamer story in my opinion.

2612
02:21:23,840 --> 02:21:24,600
Speaker 5: Which which are you?

2613
02:21:24,640 --> 02:21:24,800
Speaker 8: Which?

2614
02:21:24,800 --> 02:21:25,680
Speaker 5: What are you talking about?

2615
02:21:25,760 --> 02:21:28,120
Speaker 4: That's the one that that that he he had to

2616
02:21:28,160 --> 02:21:32,800
Speaker 4: publicly announce that he he does not play GTA five.

2617
02:21:33,000 --> 02:21:34,680
Speaker 5: Oh, that was funny. I forgot about that.

2618
02:21:34,720 --> 02:21:38,720
Speaker 4: Because he doesn't like quote unquote doing crime and g

2619
02:21:38,920 --> 02:21:42,560
Speaker 4: t A five quote require shooting police officers in the

2620
02:21:42,600 --> 02:21:46,240
Speaker 4: opening scene. Just couldn't do it unquote.

2621
02:21:46,240 --> 02:21:47,400
Speaker 5: Oh, I really forgot about that.

2622
02:21:47,879 --> 02:21:51,560
Speaker 4: So that proofs that at least he has some integrity God. Now,

2623
02:21:51,640 --> 02:21:55,840
Speaker 4: some some gamers might be sick individuals acting out you know,

2624
02:21:56,480 --> 02:22:00,040
Speaker 4: violence power fantasies, but at least Musk has someone in

2625
02:22:00,040 --> 02:22:05,000
Speaker 4: tegrity to not harm police officers in GDA five. That

2626
02:22:05,120 --> 02:22:07,560
Speaker 4: really shows that there's like a moral compass behind all

2627
02:22:07,640 --> 02:22:11,440
Speaker 4: of this, you know, at times strange behavior.

2628
02:22:12,520 --> 02:22:15,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's also like, that's also him signaling to like

2629
02:22:15,520 --> 02:22:18,039
Speaker 5: a different like the weird Christian part of the bass.

2630
02:22:18,160 --> 02:22:21,520
Speaker 5: That's like, oh, violence and video games is bad because

2631
02:22:21,520 --> 02:22:23,560
Speaker 5: he's trying to single to all of his groups simultaneously,

2632
02:22:24,000 --> 02:22:26,280
Speaker 5: and all of them are like, this guy is a

2633
02:22:26,320 --> 02:22:30,520
Speaker 5: fucking loser who sucks ass and we hate him.

2634
02:22:30,800 --> 02:22:33,640
Speaker 4: It is pretty embarrassing. That doesn't bring me much joy

2635
02:22:33,680 --> 02:22:36,600
Speaker 4: because again he is the most powerful man in the world. No,

2636
02:22:36,720 --> 02:22:38,720
Speaker 4: but it is mildly amusing.

2637
02:22:38,879 --> 02:22:40,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, But so that there is a sort of serious

2638
02:22:40,920 --> 02:22:43,440
Speaker 5: note to this, which is that like the pushback he

2639
02:22:43,600 --> 02:22:46,160
Speaker 5: is getting here is like I think actually kind of

2640
02:22:46,240 --> 02:22:48,720
Speaker 5: is significant. So the last thing I want to talk

2641
02:22:48,720 --> 02:22:50,520
Speaker 5: about it is him pretending to have been like a

2642
02:22:50,600 --> 02:22:54,280
Speaker 5: quake pro which the thing that he did, and there's

2643
02:22:54,320 --> 02:22:57,240
Speaker 5: a very interesting video about this by the YouTuber Carl Jobs,

2644
02:22:57,400 --> 02:22:59,600
Speaker 5: who is like his thing is like people who fake

2645
02:22:59,680 --> 02:23:02,680
Speaker 5: who like fake things in video games basically, and he

2646
02:23:02,840 --> 02:23:05,760
Speaker 5: is like not a leftist. He's like like a center

2647
02:23:05,840 --> 02:23:08,440
Speaker 5: right guy basically. I mean, there's arguments about exactly how

2648
02:23:08,440 --> 02:23:11,080
Speaker 5: far right he is. But he did a video about

2649
02:23:11,760 --> 02:23:14,280
Speaker 5: about Elon claiming to be a quack player and what

2650
02:23:14,360 --> 02:23:17,600
Speaker 5: he found so is Elon like apparently did actually play

2651
02:23:17,640 --> 02:23:19,360
Speaker 5: in an early quake tournament, but none of the good

2652
02:23:19,360 --> 02:23:21,520
Speaker 5: players were there, and he he came his team came

2653
02:23:21,560 --> 02:23:23,120
Speaker 5: in second, but they came in second because they had

2654
02:23:23,160 --> 02:23:26,240
Speaker 5: better WiFi than everyone else and so they had less latency,

2655
02:23:26,760 --> 02:23:28,760
Speaker 5: which made them invincible until they ran into a team

2656
02:23:28,760 --> 02:23:31,039
Speaker 5: that also had good WiFi, and then he got destroyed,

2657
02:23:31,560 --> 02:23:33,200
Speaker 5: which I just I just think it's funny, right. That's

2658
02:23:33,240 --> 02:23:35,400
Speaker 5: like a classic Elon Musk story, which is he he

2659
02:23:36,080 --> 02:23:38,920
Speaker 5: has this theme claiming that he's like a fucking gamer legend,

2660
02:23:39,160 --> 02:23:41,160
Speaker 5: but it's actually because he had more money than everyone

2661
02:23:41,200 --> 02:23:42,440
Speaker 5: else until he ran some much who had the same

2662
02:23:42,480 --> 02:23:44,240
Speaker 5: amount of money that he did and just got destroyed.

2663
02:23:45,240 --> 02:23:47,240
Speaker 5: But the reason I bring this up is that, like

2664
02:23:47,640 --> 02:23:50,640
Speaker 5: at the end of this video, Jobst is like goes

2665
02:23:50,640 --> 02:23:53,360
Speaker 5: on this whole thing about how and this is this

2666
02:23:53,400 --> 02:23:56,120
Speaker 5: is like a stronger statement against Elon mustin I have

2667
02:23:56,200 --> 02:23:58,920
Speaker 5: seen from anything in the mainstream press where he literally

2668
02:23:58,920 --> 02:24:00,480
Speaker 5: goes on a thing where he says, Yeah, every single

2669
02:24:00,520 --> 02:24:02,560
Speaker 5: thing that Elon Musk has been saying here is a lie.

2670
02:24:02,920 --> 02:24:06,200
Speaker 5: And because he is just obviously lying out of his ass,

2671
02:24:06,200 --> 02:24:08,039
Speaker 5: but literally everything in a field that I know, this

2672
02:24:08,080 --> 02:24:10,360
Speaker 5: means that I literally can't trust him when he says

2673
02:24:10,400 --> 02:24:12,960
Speaker 5: anything about any other fucking field that I don't know.

2674
02:24:14,120 --> 02:24:16,959
Speaker 5: And this is a real shift, right, I have never

2675
02:24:17,000 --> 02:24:20,080
Speaker 5: seen a mainstream journalist write down Elon Musk is just

2676
02:24:20,120 --> 02:24:22,440
Speaker 5: clearly a liar about this, and so you should not

2677
02:24:22,480 --> 02:24:25,560
Speaker 5: be able to trust anything else he fucking says. This

2678
02:24:25,640 --> 02:24:27,800
Speaker 5: is a larger degree of pushback than anything else ever

2679
02:24:27,840 --> 02:24:31,720
Speaker 5: fucking seen outside of like the left about what Elon

2680
02:24:31,840 --> 02:24:33,640
Speaker 5: Musk is doing, and like just the willingness to just

2681
02:24:33,640 --> 02:24:35,600
Speaker 5: be like, this guy is a fucking just just a

2682
02:24:35,640 --> 02:24:38,440
Speaker 5: serial liar, Like everything says is a lie. He literally

2683
02:24:38,480 --> 02:24:40,200
Speaker 5: calls him a con like, says that his activity is

2684
02:24:40,200 --> 02:24:42,200
Speaker 5: like a con man. He says the things that he's

2685
02:24:42,200 --> 02:24:44,760
Speaker 5: saying are like either liars or delusional. There is a

2686
02:24:44,840 --> 02:24:46,959
Speaker 5: kind of like shift happening right now where people like

2687
02:24:47,080 --> 02:24:49,840
Speaker 5: really are turning on him. There's a day to happen

2688
02:24:49,920 --> 02:24:53,040
Speaker 5: literally today where Ubisoft. You know, ubi Soft is a

2689
02:24:53,080 --> 02:24:57,360
Speaker 5: famously like not a leftist company, right, Like they've done

2690
02:24:57,360 --> 02:25:00,800
Speaker 5: a lot of horrible, fucked up sexual assault stuff. So

2691
02:25:01,240 --> 02:25:04,000
Speaker 5: Elon's mad at Ubisoft because one of their games as

2692
02:25:04,040 --> 02:25:06,600
Speaker 5: a black guy as like a character in it, and

2693
02:25:07,200 --> 02:25:10,120
Speaker 5: literally the official Assassin's Create accounts replied to one of

2694
02:25:10,120 --> 02:25:13,480
Speaker 5: his tweets saying, is that what the guy playing your

2695
02:25:13,480 --> 02:25:16,400
Speaker 5: Path of Axile two account told you? And like replied

2696
02:25:16,520 --> 02:25:19,760
Speaker 5: and replied to a thing about Hassan, Like, we are

2697
02:25:19,840 --> 02:25:23,959
Speaker 5: genuinely seeing a shift in this space, right this thing

2698
02:25:24,000 --> 02:25:26,480
Speaker 5: that had been like a really really consistent base of

2699
02:25:26,520 --> 02:25:30,480
Speaker 5: support with people like Elon is kind of fracturing against

2700
02:25:30,560 --> 02:25:32,400
Speaker 5: him and is sort of being polarized against him by

2701
02:25:32,440 --> 02:25:36,120
Speaker 5: just like the fact that he's just is so obviously

2702
02:25:36,160 --> 02:25:39,480
Speaker 5: cynically pandering to them, and how unbelievably transparent it is,

2703
02:25:40,320 --> 02:25:42,360
Speaker 5: and like obviously, like I don't think like the gamers

2704
02:25:42,400 --> 02:25:44,960
Speaker 5: are going to like fucking rise up or whatever. But

2705
02:25:45,280 --> 02:25:47,520
Speaker 5: the actual serious point to all of this, other than

2706
02:25:47,680 --> 02:25:49,760
Speaker 5: like looking at the ways of fascism, like why these

2707
02:25:49,800 --> 02:25:51,600
Speaker 5: people do this and like gamers is like a demographic

2708
02:25:51,600 --> 02:25:54,360
Speaker 5: that's important to these people is that, like, the way

2709
02:25:54,400 --> 02:25:57,320
Speaker 5: that you destroy a coalition by this isn't necessarily by

2710
02:25:57,360 --> 02:26:02,080
Speaker 5: flipping everyone over to your side, right, that doesn't happen

2711
02:26:02,200 --> 02:26:04,600
Speaker 5: that often. But one of the ways you can do this,

2712
02:26:04,680 --> 02:26:06,480
Speaker 5: and this is this is, you know, to take a

2713
02:26:06,520 --> 02:26:09,360
Speaker 5: really really dramatic example, this is how the Bolsheviks won

2714
02:26:09,400 --> 02:26:13,160
Speaker 5: the October Revolution. They got their opponents to allies to

2715
02:26:13,200 --> 02:26:16,800
Speaker 5: stay home and that was enough enough people just staying

2716
02:26:16,800 --> 02:26:19,680
Speaker 5: on the fucking sidelines when the Bolsheviks like came for

2717
02:26:19,760 --> 02:26:22,880
Speaker 5: Cureanzi's government was enough for them to take power. And

2718
02:26:23,640 --> 02:26:26,320
Speaker 5: I think like the actual, like the actual serious points

2719
02:26:26,320 --> 02:26:28,560
Speaker 5: of this is that the only way that we get

2720
02:26:28,560 --> 02:26:31,360
Speaker 5: out of this mess is by just systematically tearing away

2721
02:26:31,400 --> 02:26:33,720
Speaker 5: these people's coalitions so that when the confrontation with these

2722
02:26:33,720 --> 02:26:36,760
Speaker 5: people comes, there are enough people who would be their

2723
02:26:36,800 --> 02:26:40,840
Speaker 5: supporters who just fucking stay home that they can they

2724
02:26:40,840 --> 02:26:41,560
Speaker 5: can be stopped.

2725
02:26:41,800 --> 02:26:46,000
Speaker 4: So this is at Mia Wong publicly calling for the

2726
02:26:46,080 --> 02:26:47,560
Speaker 4: start of gamer Gate two.

2727
02:26:47,800 --> 02:26:49,680
Speaker 5: Gamer Gate two is already happening, damn it. This is

2728
02:26:49,680 --> 02:26:50,480
Speaker 5: gamer Gate three.

2729
02:26:50,720 --> 02:26:55,240
Speaker 4: This is an open call to begin gamer Gate two

2730
02:26:55,280 --> 02:26:58,680
Speaker 4: point five right now on behalf of me along. Make

2731
02:26:58,760 --> 02:27:04,480
Speaker 4: sure you at Mia oh no, and then hopefully and

2732
02:27:04,520 --> 02:27:09,959
Speaker 4: I'll finally usher in the American Bolshevik revolution after we

2733
02:27:09,959 --> 02:27:14,440
Speaker 4: get enough gamers just to stay home or even better

2734
02:27:14,560 --> 02:27:16,760
Speaker 4: rise up right, we can we can make some kind

2735
02:27:16,800 --> 02:27:19,760
Speaker 4: of graphic with like a fist holding a controller or

2736
02:27:19,959 --> 02:27:20,640
Speaker 4: a keyboard.

2737
02:27:20,720 --> 02:27:24,720
Speaker 5: If you're a nerd about it. Gamers are the cosacks.

2738
02:27:24,720 --> 02:27:26,680
Speaker 5: We've got to get them to knock back the regime.

2739
02:27:27,000 --> 02:27:29,120
Speaker 5: That's actually the February Revolution where theytood down. But you know,

2740
02:27:29,520 --> 02:27:33,320
Speaker 5: same point, same point. Come on ya, geez fuck I

2741
02:27:33,360 --> 02:27:35,360
Speaker 5: am one of the biggest things of Like, people need

2742
02:27:35,400 --> 02:27:37,560
Speaker 5: to remember that that Lenin did not overthrow the czar.

2743
02:27:37,720 --> 02:27:40,520
Speaker 5: He overthrew Kerensky, who was kind of a socialist e

2744
02:27:40,640 --> 02:27:42,640
Speaker 5: guy who was run the provisional government in between the

2745
02:27:42,680 --> 02:27:44,520
Speaker 5: first Okay, we're done, we're done here, we're done here,

2746
02:27:44,520 --> 02:27:45,920
Speaker 5: we're working out, we're leaving.

2747
02:27:46,680 --> 02:27:47,800
Speaker 4: What games are you playing?

2748
02:27:47,879 --> 02:27:51,560
Speaker 5: What games am I playing? Pathaxtyle to don't play Rotato

2749
02:27:51,640 --> 02:27:54,440
Speaker 5: it will consume your life. Okay, play robo quest. Robo

2750
02:27:54,480 --> 02:27:57,920
Speaker 5: Quest is great. Roboquest dares to ask the question what if,

2751
02:27:58,000 --> 02:28:01,920
Speaker 5: Like the art style of Borderland was used for a

2752
02:28:01,959 --> 02:28:05,680
Speaker 5: game about rehabilitative Justice. But also you're doing the roguelike

2753
02:28:05,920 --> 02:28:07,959
Speaker 5: with like Doom's combat.

2754
02:28:07,640 --> 02:28:10,520
Speaker 4: That sounds very gay, so I probably can't do that.

2755
02:28:10,600 --> 02:28:14,800
Speaker 4: Then I do Hell Divers too, nearly every Monday. Armored

2756
02:28:14,840 --> 02:28:15,879
Speaker 4: Corps six.

2757
02:28:16,120 --> 02:28:17,840
Speaker 5: Course six Rules. Love that game. Love that game.

2758
02:28:18,520 --> 02:28:23,640
Speaker 4: Sonic X Shadow Generations, Final Fantasy, Sevin, and I'm waiting

2759
02:28:24,160 --> 02:28:26,520
Speaker 4: for Mecca Break to come out for like their their

2760
02:28:26,520 --> 02:28:30,480
Speaker 4: official release now that the beta's closed. Unfortunately, the character

2761
02:28:30,520 --> 02:28:32,199
Speaker 4: selection is very gooner.

2762
02:28:31,920 --> 02:28:34,640
Speaker 5: Coded, many many such cases, so I made sure to.

2763
02:28:34,560 --> 02:28:38,560
Speaker 4: Make the smallest the smallest chest size available on my

2764
02:28:38,760 --> 02:28:42,160
Speaker 4: on my model. But the gameplay is fun.

2765
02:28:44,160 --> 02:28:47,720
Speaker 5: This has been it could happen here. I good lords,

2766
02:28:48,720 --> 02:28:51,840
Speaker 5: they pay me for this. I had to. I had

2767
02:28:51,840 --> 02:28:55,160
Speaker 5: to watch so many videos about Deshaun Watson and fucking

2768
02:28:55,200 --> 02:29:24,200
Speaker 5: clips of of of Elon Musk playing video games for this.

2769
02:29:24,200 --> 02:29:27,840
Speaker 5: This is it could happen here. Executive Disorder our weekly.

2770
02:29:27,520 --> 02:29:30,760
Speaker 4: Newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world,

2771
02:29:30,840 --> 02:29:32,879
Speaker 4: and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis. Today

2772
02:29:32,879 --> 02:29:36,280
Speaker 4: I'm joined by James Stout and Robert Evans. You are

2773
02:29:36,480 --> 02:29:39,680
Speaker 4: This week, we are covering the week of March twenty

2774
02:29:39,959 --> 02:29:41,720
Speaker 4: to March twenty six.

2775
02:29:42,760 --> 02:29:45,440
Speaker 3: Short week because we did a late recording last week.

2776
02:29:45,680 --> 02:29:49,800
Speaker 4: Yep, we did, so it's minus one day if my

2777
02:29:49,920 --> 02:29:52,680
Speaker 4: math is correct. It's been a hard week for many

2778
02:29:52,760 --> 02:29:55,920
Speaker 4: of us because we all really care about group chats,

2779
02:29:56,000 --> 02:29:58,840
Speaker 4: and group chat security is super important. Oh yeah, to

2780
02:29:58,920 --> 02:30:01,160
Speaker 4: kind of have anyone involved in politics, and whenever we

2781
02:30:01,200 --> 02:30:04,400
Speaker 4: see a breach of this magnitude, it's really a warning

2782
02:30:04,520 --> 02:30:06,880
Speaker 4: and like a threat to all of us. So it

2783
02:30:06,959 --> 02:30:08,840
Speaker 4: has it has been. It has been a tough week.

2784
02:30:09,240 --> 02:30:11,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like a threat to one is a threat to all. So,

2785
02:30:11,680 --> 02:30:13,600
Speaker 2: like the way I see it, any group chat that

2786
02:30:13,640 --> 02:30:15,439
Speaker 2: gets compromised, first.

2787
02:30:15,160 --> 02:30:19,280
Speaker 5: They came for hoothypc's ball group. Yeah, that's xt. Next

2788
02:30:19,280 --> 02:30:20,240
Speaker 5: they're gonna come.

2789
02:30:20,160 --> 02:30:22,160
Speaker 2: Be any of us could be any of us. Jeffrey

2790
02:30:22,160 --> 02:30:25,680
Speaker 2: Goldberg could be lurking in your small group. That's you

2791
02:30:25,760 --> 02:30:28,800
Speaker 2: and your girlfriend talking about what kind of pizza to order.

2792
02:30:29,000 --> 02:30:31,920
Speaker 2: He could be there reporting for The Atlantic. You wouldn't

2793
02:30:31,920 --> 02:30:34,520
Speaker 2: know unless you like looked at who was in there

2794
02:30:34,879 --> 02:30:38,160
Speaker 2: and saw his name, then you would know, which is

2795
02:30:38,160 --> 02:30:40,000
Speaker 2: true of all of the people in the hoothy PC

2796
02:30:40,160 --> 02:30:40,720
Speaker 2: small group.

2797
02:30:40,879 --> 02:30:42,360
Speaker 5: I guess it is actually pretty easy.

2798
02:30:43,080 --> 02:30:46,200
Speaker 3: You don't know, maybe maybe different Goldbudge signal name is

2799
02:30:46,280 --> 02:30:50,480
Speaker 3: like like CIA Superspy or something, and everyone's assumed along there.

2800
02:30:50,920 --> 02:30:53,120
Speaker 2: I'm gonna start at the beginning, because I do assume

2801
02:30:53,160 --> 02:30:55,800
Speaker 2: that actually, like as impossible as it sounds to those

2802
02:30:55,840 --> 02:30:59,400
Speaker 2: of us who like wake up and imbibe fucking social

2803
02:30:59,440 --> 02:31:02,680
Speaker 2: media morning, like an addict takes their first hit of

2804
02:31:02,720 --> 02:31:05,480
Speaker 2: crack cocaine, but in a way that's less healthy for

2805
02:31:05,560 --> 02:31:08,640
Speaker 2: both our hearts and our brains. A decent number of

2806
02:31:08,680 --> 02:31:10,680
Speaker 2: people who listen to this podcast have just kind of

2807
02:31:10,720 --> 02:31:12,840
Speaker 2: like heard vaguely like some bits about this.

2808
02:31:12,959 --> 02:31:14,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, they're wondering, what the fuck we're talking about?

2809
02:31:14,920 --> 02:31:16,320
Speaker 2: What are you doing? What are you guys doing this?

2810
02:31:16,600 --> 02:31:19,440
Speaker 2: So we're gonna talk about this group chat. So first off,

2811
02:31:19,520 --> 02:31:22,480
Speaker 2: couple of basics. So, Signal is an app that is

2812
02:31:22,680 --> 02:31:24,840
Speaker 2: end to end encrypted. That means that if you have

2813
02:31:24,920 --> 02:31:27,840
Speaker 2: Signal and your buddy has Signal and you're messaging each other,

2814
02:31:28,160 --> 02:31:31,200
Speaker 2: it's encrypted, and it is very hard at this point

2815
02:31:31,840 --> 02:31:35,520
Speaker 2: unless one of your phones is directly compromised by a

2816
02:31:35,560 --> 02:31:39,200
Speaker 2: non state actor or an X who's really good with

2817
02:31:39,280 --> 02:31:42,240
Speaker 2: the computers, no one else can see what you're messaging

2818
02:31:42,280 --> 02:31:45,000
Speaker 2: each other. So if you and a friend are like

2819
02:31:45,080 --> 02:31:48,320
Speaker 2: planning what to order on fucking grub Hub tonight when

2820
02:31:48,320 --> 02:31:50,880
Speaker 2: you go play Super Smash Brothers or whatever, you can

2821
02:31:50,959 --> 02:31:52,800
Speaker 2: keep that secret. Or if you and a friend are

2822
02:31:52,840 --> 02:31:55,520
Speaker 2: planning what substances to buy that the government might not

2823
02:31:55,560 --> 02:31:58,240
Speaker 2: want you buying, you can keep that secret. Or if

2824
02:31:58,280 --> 02:32:02,080
Speaker 2: you and your friend simply don't want various media companies

2825
02:32:02,160 --> 02:32:05,320
Speaker 2: taking every detail and phone carriers taking every detail of

2826
02:32:05,360 --> 02:32:09,320
Speaker 2: your life's conversations and turning that into analytics data, you

2827
02:32:09,360 --> 02:32:11,640
Speaker 2: can stop them from doing that. And if maybe one

2828
02:32:11,720 --> 02:32:14,279
Speaker 2: day you might be engaged in speech that the government

2829
02:32:14,360 --> 02:32:16,720
Speaker 2: might not like, you can continue to engage in that

2830
02:32:16,800 --> 02:32:18,959
Speaker 2: speech privately without danger.

2831
02:32:18,800 --> 02:32:19,760
Speaker 5: Or with less danger.

2832
02:32:20,200 --> 02:32:22,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, or with with as little danger as it is

2833
02:32:22,760 --> 02:32:23,440
Speaker 2: possible to do.

2834
02:32:23,600 --> 02:32:28,320
Speaker 4: Especially if your messages automatically explode after anywhere between five

2835
02:32:28,400 --> 02:32:31,760
Speaker 4: seconds to a week, right, which is a feature Signal has.

2836
02:32:31,879 --> 02:32:34,440
Speaker 2: Yes, you can automatically set it to delete stuff over

2837
02:32:34,440 --> 02:32:36,360
Speaker 2: a period of time you want to. If you're going

2838
02:32:36,400 --> 02:32:38,640
Speaker 2: to use it, turn off the thing where it like

2839
02:32:38,720 --> 02:32:41,800
Speaker 2: pushes messages so that you can like see visible notifications.

2840
02:32:41,879 --> 02:32:43,720
Speaker 2: So yeah, not if you turn them off, because that's

2841
02:32:43,720 --> 02:32:44,959
Speaker 2: a that'll function.

2842
02:32:44,840 --> 02:32:47,840
Speaker 4: Up because then your operating system can read the messages

2843
02:32:47,879 --> 02:32:51,600
Speaker 4: without the encryption. Similarly, never open a QR code. This

2844
02:32:51,680 --> 02:32:54,360
Speaker 4: is the yes, really the only way that signal can

2845
02:32:54,480 --> 02:32:57,840
Speaker 4: can get compromised on like scale right now beyond like

2846
02:32:57,879 --> 02:33:01,760
Speaker 4: physical infiltration, right like what accidentally happened with who the

2847
02:33:01,800 --> 02:33:02,600
Speaker 4: PC smell Group.

2848
02:33:02,800 --> 02:33:04,600
Speaker 5: But the main other way.

2849
02:33:04,400 --> 02:33:08,360
Speaker 4: That signal kanka compromised is through malicious QR codes and

2850
02:33:08,640 --> 02:33:11,760
Speaker 4: unknown links. So really be careful about links as always

2851
02:33:11,959 --> 02:33:15,600
Speaker 4: on the Internet, and especially be skeptical of QR codes.

2852
02:33:15,840 --> 02:33:18,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a there's a quote from Herman Garring. I

2853
02:33:18,160 --> 02:33:20,039
Speaker 2: think it was from Herman Gehring. When I hear the

2854
02:33:20,040 --> 02:33:22,760
Speaker 2: word culture, I reach for my revolver, and I have

2855
02:33:22,879 --> 02:33:26,480
Speaker 2: adapted that gearing quote to the modern era. When I

2856
02:33:26,480 --> 02:33:29,480
Speaker 2: hear QR code, I reach for Mike clock nineteen.

2857
02:33:29,760 --> 02:33:32,920
Speaker 3: That's right, do not do not use koorotes. Yeah, the

2858
02:33:33,040 --> 02:33:35,960
Speaker 3: work of Satan. Let's explain what who the PC small

2859
02:33:36,000 --> 02:33:38,440
Speaker 3: Group is for the people. I'm getting to it.

2860
02:33:38,520 --> 02:33:40,920
Speaker 2: So you've got you've got this app which is normally

2861
02:33:41,040 --> 02:33:43,000
Speaker 2: used by and has been used for a long time

2862
02:33:43,040 --> 02:33:46,240
Speaker 2: by like protesters and dissidents and journalists to communicate with sources.

2863
02:33:46,280 --> 02:33:50,360
Speaker 2: Because it's very secure the Trump administration takes office. One

2864
02:33:50,400 --> 02:33:52,280
Speaker 2: thing that they are annoyed about is that when you

2865
02:33:52,320 --> 02:33:55,240
Speaker 2: are government employees, even if you're doing top secret shit,

2866
02:33:55,480 --> 02:33:58,039
Speaker 2: especially if you're doing top secret shit, the kind of

2867
02:33:58,120 --> 02:34:02,320
Speaker 2: meetings about national security planning for like military actions that

2868
02:34:02,440 --> 02:34:05,520
Speaker 2: you are supposed to only have in something called a skiff,

2869
02:34:05,560 --> 02:34:09,040
Speaker 2: and a skiff is basically a room in you know,

2870
02:34:09,320 --> 02:34:11,560
Speaker 2: the West Wing, I think, or the Pentagon, right, I'm

2871
02:34:11,560 --> 02:34:13,280
Speaker 2: not one hundred percent sure where all the skiffs are,

2872
02:34:13,320 --> 02:34:15,959
Speaker 2: but it's like a room that is incredibly secure, and

2873
02:34:16,000 --> 02:34:18,560
Speaker 2: it is the only place that you are supposed to

2874
02:34:18,560 --> 02:34:22,280
Speaker 2: have certain kinds of conversations. And in fact, if you

2875
02:34:22,360 --> 02:34:25,320
Speaker 2: are having one of those kinds of conversations in a skiff,

2876
02:34:25,600 --> 02:34:28,359
Speaker 2: no one, not even the president or the vice president,

2877
02:34:28,640 --> 02:34:30,560
Speaker 2: is allowed to have a phone in there. It is

2878
02:34:30,600 --> 02:34:33,760
Speaker 2: a very strict rule. You don't take phones into the

2879
02:34:33,800 --> 02:34:37,440
Speaker 2: skiff because none of them are fucking secure. Now, the

2880
02:34:37,520 --> 02:34:41,400
Speaker 2: problem is all these communications, all of this stuff is

2881
02:34:41,480 --> 02:34:45,320
Speaker 2: documented and potentially foilable. Maybe not immediately because there's always

2882
02:34:45,360 --> 02:34:47,800
Speaker 2: security concerns. They have the ability to redact.

2883
02:34:47,400 --> 02:34:50,080
Speaker 5: Stuff, but in twenty years perhaps, but at some.

2884
02:34:50,160 --> 02:34:53,160
Speaker 3: Point, yeah, it might be archived. Even if it's not flable.

2885
02:34:53,240 --> 02:34:56,720
Speaker 2: People who are in charge of our military now didn't

2886
02:34:56,760 --> 02:34:59,280
Speaker 2: like that and were like, hey, what if we all

2887
02:34:59,320 --> 02:35:02,039
Speaker 2: just did it through a single group, And they did

2888
02:35:02,879 --> 02:35:05,879
Speaker 2: to plan for an attack that started March fifteenth against

2889
02:35:05,920 --> 02:35:07,880
Speaker 2: the Hoothies. Now you will remember the Hoothies from the

2890
02:35:07,920 --> 02:35:10,120
Speaker 2: episode James and I did, I mean from other stuff too,

2891
02:35:10,120 --> 02:35:11,000
Speaker 2: because they're all over the.

2892
02:35:10,959 --> 02:35:14,320
Speaker 5: News, you know, the the hoothy stuff.

2893
02:35:14,600 --> 02:35:16,640
Speaker 2: James and I did an episode recently about a regular

2894
02:35:16,760 --> 02:35:18,920
Speaker 2: naval warfare, and you check it out. That's all still

2895
02:35:19,000 --> 02:35:19,720
Speaker 2: pretty relevant.

2896
02:35:20,040 --> 02:35:22,160
Speaker 5: Better known for their other work, yeah.

2897
02:35:21,959 --> 02:35:25,360
Speaker 2: Better known for their other work. The Biden administration was like,

2898
02:35:25,720 --> 02:35:28,240
Speaker 2: we can probably take care of these guys with air strikes,

2899
02:35:28,600 --> 02:35:31,600
Speaker 2: and it didn't really work. And the Trump administration was like,

2900
02:35:31,680 --> 02:35:33,400
Speaker 2: we can do a better job of taking these guys

2901
02:35:33,400 --> 02:35:35,640
Speaker 2: out with air strikes. And at this point it's too

2902
02:35:35,640 --> 02:35:37,480
Speaker 2: early to say if it worked or not, but I'm

2903
02:35:37,520 --> 02:35:38,880
Speaker 2: gonna guess probably didn't.

2904
02:35:39,000 --> 02:35:41,119
Speaker 5: Probably not, just generally given the history.

2905
02:35:41,160 --> 02:35:43,760
Speaker 2: Maybe they say they killed a lot more high value

2906
02:35:43,840 --> 02:35:45,760
Speaker 2: targets and top missile guys.

2907
02:35:45,760 --> 02:35:47,920
Speaker 3: The main missile guy quote, I don't know.

2908
02:35:49,240 --> 02:35:52,000
Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm not privy to the information. They're

2909
02:35:52,040 --> 02:35:54,600
Speaker 2: working off of or how much it matters at this point. Right,

2910
02:35:55,160 --> 02:35:57,720
Speaker 2: So we'll see you in that signal chat. Rob, I'm

2911
02:35:57,720 --> 02:36:00,640
Speaker 2: not in that signal chat. They have not accidental.

2912
02:36:00,280 --> 02:36:02,800
Speaker 4: I I'm in too many signal chats, frankly.

2913
02:36:02,920 --> 02:36:04,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, I could be, and I might not know.

2914
02:36:05,120 --> 02:36:07,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, we all are in too many.

2915
02:36:07,400 --> 02:36:09,360
Speaker 3: I might be in several government ones would be totally

2916
02:36:09,440 --> 02:36:11,920
Speaker 3: unaware of it because there's too many notifications on that.

2917
02:36:11,920 --> 02:36:13,480
Speaker 5: Shit's mute and I'm not seeing that.

2918
02:36:13,600 --> 02:36:17,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. So they decide we're gonna plan an attack on

2919
02:36:17,840 --> 02:36:19,920
Speaker 2: some hoothies. We're gonna be hitting them with stuff, and

2920
02:36:19,920 --> 02:36:21,440
Speaker 2: we should probably all get We need to get all

2921
02:36:21,440 --> 02:36:23,720
Speaker 2: of these different kind of people from different chunks of

2922
02:36:23,800 --> 02:36:26,360
Speaker 2: the uh, you know, the government together. So we got

2923
02:36:26,360 --> 02:36:29,120
Speaker 2: to have JD. Vance and his representative because usually Vance

2924
02:36:29,200 --> 02:36:31,320
Speaker 2: is too busy to respond. And we got to have

2925
02:36:31,360 --> 02:36:34,760
Speaker 2: the Defense Secretary Pete he Zeth and his representative. We've

2926
02:36:34,760 --> 02:36:37,840
Speaker 2: got to have the d n I Toulci Gabbard her representative.

2927
02:36:37,840 --> 02:36:39,920
Speaker 2: We've got to have the head of the CIA his

2928
02:36:40,000 --> 02:36:41,760
Speaker 2: represent you know that kind of thing. There's a few

2929
02:36:41,800 --> 02:36:45,440
Speaker 2: more people in there. Mark Rubio, Mark Rubio, right Sex State,

2930
02:36:45,600 --> 02:36:49,440
Speaker 2: you know, and his representative, Raevin Miller, Stephen Miller. I

2931
02:36:49,480 --> 02:36:51,640
Speaker 2: don't know that Miller had a representative. He feels like

2932
02:36:51,680 --> 02:36:53,240
Speaker 2: he handles a lot of this stuff on his own.

2933
02:36:53,280 --> 02:36:57,080
Speaker 2: But yeah, on his phone too much, Steven Miller.

2934
02:36:57,200 --> 02:36:59,039
Speaker 4: Yeah, chronically online Steven Miller.

2935
02:36:59,400 --> 02:37:02,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you have the head of I think Syncom

2936
02:37:02,200 --> 02:37:04,800
Speaker 2: was in there. Anyway. You got all these people in there,

2937
02:37:05,000 --> 02:37:08,280
Speaker 2: and while they're setting this up, all the invites are

2938
02:37:08,320 --> 02:37:09,800
Speaker 2: going out. Because the way you do it with Signal

2939
02:37:09,879 --> 02:37:11,720
Speaker 2: is you click a button that says, like start a

2940
02:37:11,720 --> 02:37:14,080
Speaker 2: new group. You name the new group. In this case,

2941
02:37:14,240 --> 02:37:17,119
Speaker 2: they named the group hoo, the PC small group, right,

2942
02:37:17,720 --> 02:37:19,520
Speaker 2: and uh shit, what does PC stand for?

2943
02:37:19,520 --> 02:37:22,480
Speaker 4: In this politically correct? Which, honestly I thought that we

2944
02:37:22,480 --> 02:37:22,959
Speaker 4: were over.

2945
02:37:23,440 --> 02:37:25,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, you'd think so, huh don't Sandy slur's in the

2946
02:37:25,920 --> 02:37:28,040
Speaker 3: group chat? That says what it's just a reminder.

2947
02:37:28,360 --> 02:37:31,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no slurs in the small group chat.

2948
02:37:31,440 --> 02:37:33,440
Speaker 3: Planning committee, I'm guessing, yeah.

2949
02:37:33,280 --> 02:37:35,600
Speaker 2: Planning committee. Who they planning committee? Small group? Sorry, I

2950
02:37:35,600 --> 02:37:38,680
Speaker 2: had that written down somewhere. So they make this group

2951
02:37:38,760 --> 02:37:41,520
Speaker 2: chat and they invite a bunch of people. And here's

2952
02:37:41,520 --> 02:37:43,840
Speaker 2: the way. One of the ways Signal works is that like,

2953
02:37:44,280 --> 02:37:47,040
Speaker 2: if you're just importing your contacts in the signal, it'll

2954
02:37:47,080 --> 02:37:49,080
Speaker 2: find the guys who have signal, and it'll just like

2955
02:37:49,120 --> 02:37:51,120
Speaker 2: show you, based on whatever your name you have for

2956
02:37:51,160 --> 02:37:53,520
Speaker 2: them in their phone right that they're on signal, and

2957
02:37:53,560 --> 02:37:56,440
Speaker 2: you can just invite them. Otherwise, you can set what

2958
02:37:56,480 --> 02:37:58,400
Speaker 2: your signal name is going to be, and so when

2959
02:37:58,400 --> 02:38:00,600
Speaker 2: people type in your phone number or whatever, they'll see that,

2960
02:38:01,080 --> 02:38:03,320
Speaker 2: or if you send them an invite, that's the name

2961
02:38:03,360 --> 02:38:06,240
Speaker 2: they'll see. And this brings us. I got to take

2962
02:38:06,240 --> 02:38:07,640
Speaker 2: an aside to talk about a guy who is not

2963
02:38:07,680 --> 02:38:09,680
Speaker 2: a member of the Trump administration and who is not

2964
02:38:09,720 --> 02:38:12,440
Speaker 2: a member of government, a man named Jeffrey Goldberg born

2965
02:38:12,480 --> 02:38:16,440
Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty five. He is currently the co editor

2966
02:38:16,560 --> 02:38:19,800
Speaker 2: of the Atlantic. Prior to this, he had what some

2967
02:38:19,840 --> 02:38:23,320
Speaker 2: people would call an illustrious career. He grew up in

2968
02:38:23,400 --> 02:38:27,400
Speaker 2: Malvern and Long Eye and I'm Maulvin. Yeah, what I'm

2969
02:38:27,400 --> 02:38:29,520
Speaker 2: looking at his wiki here, which just has the line

2970
02:38:29,560 --> 02:38:32,600
Speaker 2: that his neighborhood was mainly Catholic and he described it

2971
02:38:32,640 --> 02:38:34,959
Speaker 2: as a wasteland of Irish pagramists.

2972
02:38:35,080 --> 02:38:40,439
Speaker 3: Oh I, he had a fun childhood, So okay, interesting,

2973
02:38:40,720 --> 02:38:41,760
Speaker 3: interesting Jeffrey.

2974
02:38:42,280 --> 02:38:43,600
Speaker 2: Fascinating stuff there.

2975
02:38:43,840 --> 02:38:44,360
Speaker 3: Interesting.

2976
02:38:45,320 --> 02:38:48,279
Speaker 2: So after college or kind of while he's in college,

2977
02:38:48,360 --> 02:38:50,400
Speaker 2: he leaves and he goes to Israel because he wants

2978
02:38:50,440 --> 02:38:53,240
Speaker 2: to serve in the IDF during the Intifada, the first

2979
02:38:53,280 --> 02:38:56,200
Speaker 2: one as a prison guard Jesus Christ, which is where

2980
02:38:56,280 --> 02:39:00,840
Speaker 2: Palestinian participants in the Intefhub were being held. And yeah,

2981
02:39:01,120 --> 02:39:05,240
Speaker 2: he he had like an interesting conversation with this PLO

2982
02:39:05,360 --> 02:39:08,440
Speaker 2: leader who is also like a math teacher, who I

2983
02:39:08,440 --> 02:39:12,480
Speaker 2: guess they were able to like discuss their Zionism or

2984
02:39:12,480 --> 02:39:15,480
Speaker 2: whatever in some way that he found useful. Anyway, weird guy,

2985
02:39:15,920 --> 02:39:18,039
Speaker 2: not a I bring this up to be like, not

2986
02:39:18,080 --> 02:39:19,480
Speaker 2: a left wing radical.

2987
02:39:19,520 --> 02:39:21,879
Speaker 4: Like not one of quote unquote to our guys.

2988
02:39:21,760 --> 02:39:24,600
Speaker 2: Not one of our guys. Not a guy who's probably

2989
02:39:24,600 --> 02:39:27,800
Speaker 2: broadly opposed to most of and in fact to most

2990
02:39:27,840 --> 02:39:29,200
Speaker 2: of what the Trump administration is.

2991
02:39:29,120 --> 02:39:30,960
Speaker 5: Doing, especially the air strikes.

2992
02:39:31,000 --> 02:39:34,080
Speaker 2: Frankly, yes, now he has pissed off It's fair to

2993
02:39:34,120 --> 02:39:37,440
Speaker 2: say he has really pissed off Trump a number of times,

2994
02:39:37,520 --> 02:39:39,920
Speaker 2: right because he wrote some articles. He wrote that twenty

2995
02:39:39,920 --> 02:39:43,120
Speaker 2: twenty article in the Atlantic about when Trump said got

2996
02:39:43,160 --> 02:39:45,359
Speaker 2: caught saying that Americans who died in wars are losers

2997
02:39:45,360 --> 02:39:48,039
Speaker 2: and suckers. Yes, which is you know based on sourcing

2998
02:39:48,080 --> 02:39:51,000
Speaker 2: that he had, so he's also attracted their ire. But

2999
02:39:51,040 --> 02:39:54,039
Speaker 2: he's again generally I would say, like more on the

3000
02:39:54,080 --> 02:39:56,320
Speaker 2: bootleoker east side of things, Like he's just kind of

3001
02:39:56,360 --> 02:39:59,360
Speaker 2: like a NATSEK cheerleader, Right, that would be a fair

3002
02:39:59,360 --> 02:40:01,240
Speaker 2: way to describe Jeffrey totally. I don't know that he

3003
02:40:01,280 --> 02:40:04,280
Speaker 2: would entirely disagree with that description of himself.

3004
02:40:04,600 --> 02:40:06,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, like a neobe guy.

3005
02:40:06,600 --> 02:40:09,240
Speaker 2: That said, he's not so much of one that he's

3006
02:40:09,320 --> 02:40:11,760
Speaker 2: unwilling to report critical stuff, which is what happens here.

3007
02:40:11,760 --> 02:40:14,680
Speaker 2: So he gets an invite on his phone that it

3008
02:40:14,879 --> 02:40:17,480
Speaker 2: just takes him into this PC houthy small group and

3009
02:40:17,480 --> 02:40:19,879
Speaker 2: people have done the work. There's another guy in the

3010
02:40:19,879 --> 02:40:21,680
Speaker 2: Trump administration whose initials are.

3011
02:40:21,680 --> 02:40:23,959
Speaker 5: JC John Greenbrier I believe.

3012
02:40:24,160 --> 02:40:27,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was John Greenbrier and the person

3013
02:40:27,600 --> 02:40:30,440
Speaker 2: who because there was some debate initially about like who

3014
02:40:30,520 --> 02:40:33,640
Speaker 2: invited him, because after this came out, there were allegations

3015
02:40:33,640 --> 02:40:36,400
Speaker 2: that he snuck his way in or whatever. We now

3016
02:40:36,440 --> 02:40:39,400
Speaker 2: know based on the evidence that he was inadvertently invited

3017
02:40:39,440 --> 02:40:43,119
Speaker 2: by National Security Advisor Michael Waltz, right.

3018
02:40:43,480 --> 02:40:45,039
Speaker 4: As evidenced by the signal screen shot.

3019
02:40:45,120 --> 02:40:48,280
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, there's lots of screenshots. Jeffrey did his

3020
02:40:48,440 --> 02:40:51,280
Speaker 2: you know, the job of document eventually, yes, well he

3021
02:40:51,360 --> 02:40:52,520
Speaker 2: documented it right away.

3022
02:40:52,680 --> 02:40:52,840
Speaker 1: Yes.

3023
02:40:53,000 --> 02:40:56,640
Speaker 2: So now here's the thing. From the beginning here, Jeffrey

3024
02:40:56,720 --> 02:40:59,800
Speaker 2: is having the natural reaction. I will say this role, Mike,

3025
02:40:59,840 --> 02:41:01,680
Speaker 2: you're of him. He has the reaction I think any

3026
02:41:02,000 --> 02:41:04,720
Speaker 2: minimally competent journalists would have. Someone's fucking with me.

3027
02:41:04,800 --> 02:41:06,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, this is like something to get me.

3028
02:41:06,560 --> 02:41:08,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't get invited into a chat with the

3029
02:41:08,800 --> 02:41:10,920
Speaker 2: sect deaf and the head of the CIA planning a

3030
02:41:10,920 --> 02:41:12,279
Speaker 2: military strike.

3031
02:41:12,080 --> 02:41:12,600
Speaker 4: Right like this.

3032
02:41:13,160 --> 02:41:14,960
Speaker 3: That doesn't happen. I had a bit of journalist for

3033
02:41:15,000 --> 02:41:16,120
Speaker 3: a while. That's not occurred to me.

3034
02:41:16,360 --> 02:41:19,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not does not really go down. So he's

3035
02:41:19,120 --> 02:41:20,520
Speaker 2: like trying to figure out what the fuck's going on.

3036
02:41:20,640 --> 02:41:22,800
Speaker 2: I'm like, what's happening, And he's like he's making a note,

3037
02:41:22,800 --> 02:41:25,080
Speaker 2: he's documenting stuff is there, and they're talking about like

3038
02:41:25,160 --> 02:41:27,920
Speaker 2: weapons packages, like these are the kind of weapons. This

3039
02:41:27,959 --> 02:41:29,879
Speaker 2: is where they're striking. And then as the strike's going

3040
02:41:29,920 --> 02:41:33,199
Speaker 2: they're being like this guy headed into his girlfriend's house,

3041
02:41:33,200 --> 02:41:35,880
Speaker 2: we're hitting it. The house blew up, he's dead.

3042
02:41:36,320 --> 02:41:36,480
Speaker 5: Right.

3043
02:41:36,600 --> 02:41:39,560
Speaker 3: Particular exchange was very funny because the way he phrased,

3044
02:41:39,600 --> 02:41:43,440
Speaker 3: it was like it completely baffled jd Vance. Yes, let

3045
02:41:43,480 --> 02:41:45,680
Speaker 3: me pull this up because it was it was pretty funny.

3046
02:41:45,840 --> 02:41:46,920
Speaker 2: No please please?

3047
02:41:47,400 --> 02:41:51,959
Speaker 3: Uh. Michael Waltz VP full Stop building collapsed, full Stop

3048
02:41:52,120 --> 02:41:56,440
Speaker 3: had multiple positive id full Stop, Pete Carilla the ic

3049
02:41:56,879 --> 02:42:02,680
Speaker 3: amazing job. Jd Vance replies, what Michael Waltz typing too fast?

3050
02:42:02,760 --> 02:42:06,720
Speaker 3: Full stop? The first target, M Dash that top missile guy,

3051
02:42:07,000 --> 02:42:09,440
Speaker 3: M Dash. We have positive idea of him walking into

3052
02:42:09,440 --> 02:42:12,400
Speaker 3: his girlfriend's building and now it's collapsed. And then jad

3053
02:42:12,440 --> 02:42:15,680
Speaker 3: Ebbonds replies, excellent. At this point, Michael Waltz responds with

3054
02:42:15,720 --> 02:42:19,680
Speaker 3: the fifth emoji American flag emoji, flame emoji.

3055
02:42:21,040 --> 02:42:24,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's great. And once it becomes very clear

3056
02:42:24,879 --> 02:42:27,920
Speaker 2: what's happening number one, rather than stay in the group,

3057
02:42:28,240 --> 02:42:30,120
Speaker 2: see if maybe he could get invited to other groups,

3058
02:42:30,200 --> 02:42:31,720
Speaker 2: just kind of like keep track of what was going

3059
02:42:31,760 --> 02:42:35,480
Speaker 2: on again being a guy who's like primary concern and

3060
02:42:35,520 --> 02:42:38,760
Speaker 2: I really do think Goldberg's primary concern here was the

3061
02:42:38,800 --> 02:42:40,959
Speaker 2: security of US soldiers, like.

3062
02:42:40,959 --> 02:42:43,119
Speaker 5: The national security of the United States.

3063
02:42:43,160 --> 02:42:46,640
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, as opposed to like is any

3064
02:42:46,640 --> 02:42:49,280
Speaker 2: of this legal? Are they like what like his is

3065
02:42:49,320 --> 02:42:52,160
Speaker 2: just like these people are not being secure like with

3066
02:42:53,360 --> 02:42:55,200
Speaker 2: I mean like this this could if the wrong person

3067
02:42:55,280 --> 02:42:56,720
Speaker 2: got invited in to a group like this, it could

3068
02:42:56,760 --> 02:42:59,440
Speaker 2: potentially endanger the lives of airmen and stuff. That's on

3069
02:42:59,480 --> 02:43:02,080
Speaker 2: my point concerned with all this, right, but that is

3070
02:43:02,160 --> 02:43:05,039
Speaker 2: his you know. And so he hops out of the group.

3071
02:43:05,080 --> 02:43:07,920
Speaker 2: He leaves, and he puts out this article and he

3072
02:43:08,040 --> 02:43:11,640
Speaker 2: redacts most other than the what's happened, which is a

3073
02:43:11,680 --> 02:43:14,320
Speaker 2: story in and of itself. He like goes out of

3074
02:43:14,320 --> 02:43:17,440
Speaker 2: his way, like there's people who are like in intelligence

3075
02:43:17,480 --> 02:43:19,280
Speaker 2: that are in this that he has their names, and

3076
02:43:19,320 --> 02:43:22,160
Speaker 2: he's like, I am not naming them because they're serving

3077
02:43:22,200 --> 02:43:25,840
Speaker 2: intelligence officers, and that's a no no. He doesn't like

3078
02:43:26,440 --> 02:43:29,400
Speaker 2: specifically give up other than that this is happening anything

3079
02:43:29,440 --> 02:43:34,360
Speaker 2: that's like particularly dangerous, right, But this is the kind

3080
02:43:34,440 --> 02:43:36,440
Speaker 2: of thing as soon as it comes out, obviously it's

3081
02:43:36,600 --> 02:43:38,840
Speaker 2: it's a fewer and it's unlike most of the time

3082
02:43:38,879 --> 02:43:41,520
Speaker 2: when everybody gets like pissed, it seems to like it

3083
02:43:41,600 --> 02:43:43,800
Speaker 2: might have some legs because it's just such a what

3084
02:43:43,959 --> 02:43:45,600
Speaker 2: the bach moment, right.

3085
02:43:45,640 --> 02:43:48,120
Speaker 4: And it's so contrary to like so much of the

3086
02:43:48,160 --> 02:43:51,440
Speaker 4: messaging coming from from the Trump administration regarding you know,

3087
02:43:51,480 --> 02:43:55,880
Speaker 4: like digital security. Hillary's emails prosecuting individual soldiers for any

3088
02:43:56,040 --> 02:43:58,920
Speaker 4: like like you know, losing a night vision goggle, right,

3089
02:43:58,959 --> 02:44:03,320
Speaker 4: and it's kind of a leaking information. How this administration

3090
02:44:03,400 --> 02:44:06,440
Speaker 4: is gonna going to crack down and all informations, you

3091
02:44:06,480 --> 02:44:07,360
Speaker 4: know that sort of stuff.

3092
02:44:07,400 --> 02:44:09,800
Speaker 3: At one point, Excess says we are clear for op SEC,

3093
02:44:09,840 --> 02:44:11,000
Speaker 3: which I thought was pretty funny.

3094
02:44:11,080 --> 02:44:14,160
Speaker 4: The funniest message in this signal group is that we're

3095
02:44:14,200 --> 02:44:16,800
Speaker 4: all good on OPSEC. Yeah, that he says in a

3096
02:44:16,840 --> 02:44:18,360
Speaker 4: group chat with Internal Life.

3097
02:44:18,640 --> 02:44:18,879
Speaker 5: Yeah.

3098
02:44:19,160 --> 02:44:23,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's super funny. Everything that's happening here is very funny.

3099
02:44:23,959 --> 02:44:26,199
Speaker 2: I basically want to move on to, like what's what's

3100
02:44:26,240 --> 02:44:28,400
Speaker 2: going to happen next, which is they are going to

3101
02:44:28,400 --> 02:44:30,920
Speaker 2: try to nuke Jeffrey Goldberg, Like they're going to try

3102
02:44:30,959 --> 02:44:34,320
Speaker 2: to send him to a prison, if not a literal

3103
02:44:34,640 --> 02:44:38,200
Speaker 2: like El Salvadorian work camp, right, like that that is

3104
02:44:38,280 --> 02:44:39,760
Speaker 2: going to be their next goal here.

3105
02:44:40,080 --> 02:44:42,480
Speaker 3: He embarrassed these people, like yes to an extent that

3106
02:44:42,520 --> 02:44:45,040
Speaker 3: it's I mean, anyone in uniform would have been cult

3107
02:44:45,080 --> 02:44:46,800
Speaker 3: martialed for this kind of security fuck up.

3108
02:44:46,840 --> 02:44:50,039
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, I mean in times of war in

3109
02:44:50,080 --> 02:44:51,960
Speaker 2: the past, if like the version of this had happened

3110
02:44:51,959 --> 02:44:55,120
Speaker 2: in World War Two. They would have just executed whatever

3111
02:44:55,200 --> 02:44:56,400
Speaker 2: soldier did this, Like.

3112
02:44:56,400 --> 02:44:58,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, you don't have to be a spy if you're

3113
02:44:58,160 --> 02:45:00,840
Speaker 3: incompetent enough to just bumble into shiit, it's the same result.

3114
02:45:01,240 --> 02:45:03,480
Speaker 3: I did want to address really quickly, like a couple

3115
02:45:03,520 --> 02:45:05,520
Speaker 3: of things. One, I saw this USA Today article that

3116
02:45:05,600 --> 02:45:07,560
Speaker 3: was like, oh, it's so relatable that they made this

3117
02:45:07,680 --> 02:45:10,879
Speaker 3: mistake of adding someone to the group chat. That was

3118
02:45:10,920 --> 02:45:14,199
Speaker 3: not the mistake. The mistake was coordinating things that should

3119
02:45:14,200 --> 02:45:16,840
Speaker 3: be classified. Things it should be quote unquote high side

3120
02:45:17,480 --> 02:45:20,760
Speaker 3: on personal devices using signal as opposed to a state

3121
02:45:20,800 --> 02:45:24,040
Speaker 3: department or government issued device which doesn't have your personal

3122
02:45:24,080 --> 02:45:27,400
Speaker 3: contacts to avoid all this, like a device which is

3123
02:45:27,400 --> 02:45:30,720
Speaker 3: not hackable advice which has not been exposed to QR codes,

3124
02:45:30,720 --> 02:45:31,359
Speaker 3: for example.

3125
02:45:31,520 --> 02:45:33,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, to make sure that in your context, there's not

3126
02:45:33,640 --> 02:45:36,119
Speaker 4: two guys named JG.

3127
02:45:36,400 --> 02:45:36,959
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3128
02:45:36,760 --> 02:45:39,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, so you might add the wrong JG to your

3129
02:45:39,360 --> 02:45:40,520
Speaker 4: Yemen bombing chat.

3130
02:45:40,879 --> 02:45:43,360
Speaker 2: Haven't we all added the wrong person to a group chat?

3131
02:45:43,440 --> 02:45:45,760
Speaker 2: And it's like, I mean, yeah, but I've never like

3132
02:45:45,959 --> 02:45:46,879
Speaker 2: bombed Yemen.

3133
02:45:47,080 --> 02:45:52,120
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, Yeah, it's not the same thing. It's

3134
02:45:52,120 --> 02:45:53,720
Speaker 3: not the same thing as a birthday party.

3135
02:45:53,879 --> 02:45:56,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, like I have two friends named John and I

3136
02:45:56,800 --> 02:45:59,240
Speaker 2: added the wrong one to a group about like planning

3137
02:45:59,320 --> 02:46:03,840
Speaker 2: a mutual friend birthday party. But like again minimal damage.

3138
02:46:03,959 --> 02:46:06,600
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, no no service. People's lives are put at risk.

3139
02:46:06,680 --> 02:46:07,960
Speaker 2: I did also want to point out this.

3140
02:46:08,280 --> 02:46:11,360
Speaker 3: At one point, Waltz says on Michael Walls, who's a

3141
02:46:11,520 --> 02:46:14,800
Speaker 3: national security advisor. Yeah not not not the other one. Yeah,

3142
02:46:15,160 --> 02:46:16,840
Speaker 3: that would be pretty funny. They had him as well.

3143
02:46:17,280 --> 02:46:18,200
Speaker 2: He was just in there.

3144
02:46:18,560 --> 02:46:22,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, it seems the ground you'd like to shoot parent

3145
02:46:23,720 --> 02:46:26,720
Speaker 4: friends with JD Vans wouldn't be so.

3146
02:46:27,800 --> 02:46:29,640
Speaker 3: One of the things Wolf says which is bizarre is

3147
02:46:29,640 --> 02:46:33,000
Speaker 3: that like European navies are incapable of defeating Hoothy weapons systems.

3148
02:46:33,040 --> 02:46:34,040
Speaker 5: It just isn't true.

3149
02:46:34,120 --> 02:46:38,640
Speaker 3: Like there was a coalition of twenty different states running

3150
02:46:38,720 --> 02:46:40,760
Speaker 3: operations in the rest he last year.

3151
02:46:40,680 --> 02:46:43,480
Speaker 2: And against like France has a navy, like they've gotten

3152
02:46:43,480 --> 02:46:46,480
Speaker 2: a nuclear submarines they could in the world.

3153
02:46:47,240 --> 02:46:50,800
Speaker 3: Just like one example, HMS Diamond, which is a British ship,

3154
02:46:51,240 --> 02:46:54,240
Speaker 3: shot down a Hoothy missile last year. The UK also

3155
02:46:54,600 --> 02:46:58,640
Speaker 3: struck Houthy targets last year. Yeah, I've watched the UK

3156
02:46:58,840 --> 02:47:03,879
Speaker 3: carry out air strike. I've like they're very capable. Look

3157
02:47:03,879 --> 02:47:06,160
Speaker 3: what the rane what the Houthies have is Iranian three

3158
02:47:06,280 --> 02:47:08,800
Speaker 3: fifty eight to just get really nerdy for a second, right,

3159
02:47:08,800 --> 02:47:11,040
Speaker 3: which are not really a threat to mode fighter aircraft.

3160
02:47:11,040 --> 02:47:14,039
Speaker 3: It is like a loitering munition. Maybe a drone, yeah,

3161
02:47:14,200 --> 02:47:19,720
Speaker 3: but no no aircraft, not a manned or personed aircraft.

3162
02:47:20,160 --> 02:47:22,560
Speaker 2: The primary point of like how the Hoothies are conducting

3163
02:47:22,560 --> 02:47:24,240
Speaker 2: their strikes is not We're going to knock all of

3164
02:47:24,280 --> 02:47:26,720
Speaker 2: these ships out of the sea. It's it will It

3165
02:47:26,760 --> 02:47:31,039
Speaker 2: will create an unsustainable insurance situation for a lot of merchants.

3166
02:47:31,080 --> 02:47:33,760
Speaker 2: If there's just always kind of missiles. Even if we

3167
02:47:33,800 --> 02:47:37,080
Speaker 2: never really or almost never hit anybody, that doesn't really matter.

3168
02:47:37,480 --> 02:47:39,240
Speaker 2: You got to deal with the insurance thing.

3169
02:47:39,959 --> 02:47:43,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're going to make that much more expensive and

3170
02:47:43,200 --> 02:47:46,560
Speaker 3: that that particular part of global trade much more difficult

3171
02:47:46,600 --> 02:47:50,000
Speaker 3: to conduct. So far, the Trump administration has doubled down

3172
02:47:50,000 --> 02:47:53,400
Speaker 3: in its response. This is pretty funny. Karen Levitt on

3173
02:47:53,520 --> 02:47:56,359
Speaker 3: Twitter X, I guess called Goldberg.

3174
02:47:56,400 --> 02:47:59,119
Speaker 5: She's the White House Press secretary. I believe press. That's correct?

3175
02:47:59,200 --> 02:48:01,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, what has press? Sex actually called Goldberg a quote

3176
02:48:01,920 --> 02:48:04,480
Speaker 3: Trump hater and also claimed the story was a quote

3177
02:48:04,480 --> 02:48:08,320
Speaker 3: hoax and a quote sensationalist spin. They are also right

3178
02:48:08,360 --> 02:48:12,760
Speaker 3: now claiming that quote war plans and quote attack plans

3179
02:48:13,080 --> 02:48:15,680
Speaker 3: are different things. The information they leaked to was too

3180
02:48:15,720 --> 02:48:19,640
Speaker 3: specific to constitute a war plan. Both of these things

3181
02:48:19,680 --> 02:48:22,440
Speaker 3: are kind of ludicrous claims, right, Very clearly, this is

3182
02:48:22,440 --> 02:48:25,280
Speaker 3: stuff that should be classified, very clearly. It's stuff that

3183
02:48:25,320 --> 02:48:27,400
Speaker 3: put those people's lives at risk in the event that

3184
02:48:27,480 --> 02:48:29,760
Speaker 3: the whoth He's had any means to respond to like

3185
02:48:29,920 --> 02:48:33,360
Speaker 3: F eighteen's, which I don't think they do really now.

3186
02:48:34,040 --> 02:48:37,160
Speaker 3: But you know, Iran, who absolutely is a state backer

3187
02:48:37,480 --> 02:48:39,840
Speaker 3: of the who he's, does have the ability, at least

3188
02:48:39,840 --> 02:48:42,440
Speaker 3: in theory. They they kind of haven't. They've kind of

3189
02:48:42,600 --> 02:48:44,600
Speaker 3: shown their ass a bit in the last year or

3190
02:48:44,640 --> 02:48:46,400
Speaker 3: two with Israeli strikes in a run.

3191
02:48:46,520 --> 02:48:49,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not the ability to like easily interdict these

3192
02:48:49,920 --> 02:48:52,520
Speaker 2: kinds of strikes, but certainly the ability to and more

3193
02:48:52,520 --> 02:48:55,000
Speaker 2: importantly kind of the ability to survive them, to like

3194
02:48:55,080 --> 02:48:56,400
Speaker 2: mitigate the damage that they can do.

3195
02:48:56,480 --> 02:48:58,720
Speaker 3: Sure, sure to go underground or go somewhere else, and

3196
02:48:58,720 --> 02:49:01,199
Speaker 3: like those planes are vulnerable when at like certain points

3197
02:49:01,240 --> 02:49:03,320
Speaker 3: in their trajectory, I think, so, you know, Yeah, it's

3198
02:49:03,360 --> 02:49:07,040
Speaker 3: Germany very poor to broad to broadcast exactly what you're doing, when,

3199
02:49:07,080 --> 02:49:07,640
Speaker 3: where and how.

3200
02:49:07,879 --> 02:49:11,040
Speaker 2: It's kind of just a basic of like military stuff

3201
02:49:11,080 --> 02:49:13,800
Speaker 2: that you really don't want people to know exactly when

3202
02:49:13,879 --> 02:49:15,520
Speaker 2: you're sending dudes in to do what.

3203
02:49:16,120 --> 02:49:16,360
Speaker 5: Yeah.

3204
02:49:16,480 --> 02:49:20,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was a very funny meme going around which

3205
02:49:20,920 --> 02:49:23,400
Speaker 3: basically had like imagined if the same discussion had been

3206
02:49:23,440 --> 02:49:27,080
Speaker 3: had about D Day in nineteen forty four, and yeah,

3207
02:49:27,080 --> 02:49:28,359
Speaker 3: that wouldn't have gone so well.

3208
02:49:28,360 --> 02:49:30,680
Speaker 2: They had brought a lot of great posts. I'm looking

3209
02:49:30,680 --> 02:49:34,480
Speaker 2: at one by Katie and Autopolis on Twitter right now.

3210
02:49:34,640 --> 02:49:37,200
Speaker 2: Having read through the full hoothy PC small group logs,

3211
02:49:37,200 --> 02:49:39,640
Speaker 2: I've come to the sad realization that I'm the Jdvans

3212
02:49:39,680 --> 02:49:43,640
Speaker 2: of my group chats, overly emotional, slightly unprofessional, confused by

3213
02:49:43,640 --> 02:49:45,920
Speaker 2: what everyone else is saying because I won't scroll up,

3214
02:49:46,160 --> 02:49:48,400
Speaker 2: continually derails plans with later rejections.

3215
02:49:48,440 --> 02:49:51,520
Speaker 5: So good, it's still good.

3216
02:49:51,959 --> 02:49:53,800
Speaker 2: It is that is really funny.

3217
02:49:54,320 --> 02:49:55,120
Speaker 5: That is brutal.

3218
02:49:55,280 --> 02:49:59,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is interesting to see their dynamics. It's interesting

3219
02:49:59,560 --> 02:50:02,480
Speaker 3: to see of Stephen Miller seemed to have the decisive

3220
02:50:02,520 --> 02:50:05,240
Speaker 3: word on like let's go ahead with Alice Miller. Oh yeah,

3221
02:50:05,280 --> 02:50:06,840
Speaker 3: speaking directly for the president.

3222
02:50:07,160 --> 02:50:09,720
Speaker 2: That's what's interesting because no one ever says the president

3223
02:50:09,760 --> 02:50:11,840
Speaker 2: has approved this, the president has said do this, Like

3224
02:50:11,879 --> 02:50:14,360
Speaker 2: Miller says something along the lines of like, we're going

3225
02:50:14,400 --> 02:50:16,560
Speaker 2: forward with this, or I've been told we're going forward

3226
02:50:16,640 --> 02:50:20,040
Speaker 2: with this, which is again not in terms of like

3227
02:50:20,080 --> 02:50:22,640
Speaker 2: it's a very Hitler way of doing things, right, yea, right,

3228
02:50:22,680 --> 02:50:24,440
Speaker 2: Like there's this I talk about this in the show.

3229
02:50:24,440 --> 02:50:27,760
Speaker 2: There's this decades long debate about like Hitler literally order

3230
02:50:27,800 --> 02:50:30,119
Speaker 2: the Holocaust or did he just kind of like keep

3231
02:50:30,200 --> 02:50:32,480
Speaker 2: making it clear to people that if they kept moving

3232
02:50:32,520 --> 02:50:35,199
Speaker 2: in a more holocausty direction that would.

3233
02:50:34,920 --> 02:50:38,160
Speaker 3: Like endear them to him.

3234
02:50:36,920 --> 02:50:41,280
Speaker 2: Aspects of both are true, but like, yeah, this is

3235
02:50:41,280 --> 02:50:43,720
Speaker 2: definitely kind of example of that ladder thing where Trump

3236
02:50:43,760 --> 02:50:46,600
Speaker 2: is probably like, yeah, somebody should probably fuck up those hoothies,

3237
02:50:46,760 --> 02:50:49,879
Speaker 2: and then Steven Miller goes like, yeah, Trump said, you know,

3238
02:50:49,920 --> 02:50:52,640
Speaker 2: we're good, keep moving forward. But he's also Miller's not dumb.

3239
02:50:52,640 --> 02:50:54,280
Speaker 2: He's not going to say Trump he's been doing this.

3240
02:50:54,320 --> 02:50:55,359
Speaker 2: He's gonna say he's.

3241
02:50:55,160 --> 02:50:57,680
Speaker 4: Been delegating so much more than his first term, to

3242
02:50:57,720 --> 02:51:00,920
Speaker 4: the point where his presidency is just rejecting a certain

3243
02:51:01,040 --> 02:51:04,119
Speaker 4: vibe that then other people have to carry out all

3244
02:51:04,120 --> 02:51:05,120
Speaker 4: of the details for it.

3245
02:51:05,200 --> 02:51:08,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is very similar to the hit the regimes.

3246
02:51:08,520 --> 02:51:08,840
Speaker 5: Yeah.

3247
02:51:08,920 --> 02:51:11,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, there is a term for this at the time,

3248
02:51:11,080 --> 02:51:13,760
Speaker 2: in the third Reck, it's called working towards the fuery Okay, right,

3249
02:51:13,800 --> 02:51:16,720
Speaker 2: where you're not going to get direct guidelines, you're supposed

3250
02:51:16,760 --> 02:51:18,840
Speaker 2: to figure out what he wants and move closer to it.

3251
02:51:19,040 --> 02:51:22,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, no exactly. Yeah, No, that's kind of been his

3252
02:51:22,720 --> 02:51:25,200
Speaker 4: new governing style. It's a lot smarter in terms of

3253
02:51:25,280 --> 02:51:28,440
Speaker 4: like just like you know, getting documents to sign and

3254
02:51:28,480 --> 02:51:32,440
Speaker 4: then projects certain certain like slogans or vibes that then

3255
02:51:32,520 --> 02:51:34,240
Speaker 4: everyone who works under him, which is at this point

3256
02:51:34,240 --> 02:51:36,879
Speaker 4: it's maybe like roughly twoted people tops have to all

3257
02:51:37,000 --> 02:51:40,160
Speaker 4: like figure out to like how to enact this thing

3258
02:51:40,200 --> 02:51:41,320
Speaker 4: that they think he wants.

3259
02:51:42,520 --> 02:51:45,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, like gave it to the extent that he himself

3260
02:51:45,120 --> 02:51:48,039
Speaker 3: was saying he didn't sign the evocation of the Alien

3261
02:51:48,160 --> 02:51:50,600
Speaker 3: Enemies at that Rubio did. Yeah, his signatures on it

3262
02:51:50,640 --> 02:51:53,039
Speaker 3: in the federal record. But clearly it's kind of a

3263
02:51:53,160 --> 02:51:55,640
Speaker 3: Rubio or it seems from that that it's a Rubio

3264
02:51:55,680 --> 02:51:58,880
Speaker 3: concoction that he just greenlit. Just a quote from Miller

3265
02:51:58,920 --> 02:52:00,560
Speaker 3: in case you know, it's want of exactly what he said,

3266
02:52:00,959 --> 02:52:03,520
Speaker 3: as I heard it. The presume was clear colon green light,

3267
02:52:03,680 --> 02:52:06,360
Speaker 3: but we soon make clear to Egypt and Europe what

3268
02:52:06,440 --> 02:52:10,000
Speaker 3: we expect in return. So yeah, it's he never he

3269
02:52:10,080 --> 02:52:13,680
Speaker 3: never specifically says the President has okayed this. But yeah,

3270
02:52:13,720 --> 02:52:18,039
Speaker 3: that's obviously people in Europe really pissed. I've seen some

3271
02:52:18,120 --> 02:52:20,960
Speaker 3: statements from government ministers in the United Kingdom like the

3272
02:52:21,800 --> 02:52:24,560
Speaker 3: sort of maligning of Europe and its military powers is

3273
02:52:24,600 --> 02:52:26,879
Speaker 3: obviously going to piss those people off. Talking of pissing

3274
02:52:26,879 --> 02:52:29,000
Speaker 3: people off, should we pivot to advertisements?

3275
02:52:29,000 --> 02:52:31,400
Speaker 4: We should, which does not piss me off. It makes

3276
02:52:31,400 --> 02:52:33,280
Speaker 4: me really happy to consume.

3277
02:52:34,440 --> 02:52:37,720
Speaker 3: Garrison personally consumes all the products and services that support

3278
02:52:37,720 --> 02:52:38,000
Speaker 3: this show.

3279
02:52:38,040 --> 02:52:38,959
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's definitely not true.

3280
02:52:39,480 --> 02:52:42,959
Speaker 2: It's the only thing that Garrison concerns, which is why

3281
02:52:43,000 --> 02:52:43,959
Speaker 2: they have poleegra.

3282
02:52:44,120 --> 02:52:46,160
Speaker 4: I don't know what that is, but sure, here's here's

3283
02:52:46,200 --> 02:53:00,280
Speaker 4: the ads, all right, we are so that.

3284
02:53:01,000 --> 02:53:03,800
Speaker 2: H Yeah, what's rending my additions?

3285
02:53:04,520 --> 02:53:11,480
Speaker 3: James, Yeah, okay, I'll just start so very amusingly is

3286
02:53:11,480 --> 02:53:15,119
Speaker 3: that's probably concerningly for him. Judge Boseberg, the same person

3287
02:53:15,560 --> 02:53:19,440
Speaker 3: who issued attentive restraining order against the Trump administration for

3288
02:53:19,560 --> 02:53:22,920
Speaker 3: the rendition of people to Venezuela has also been assigned

3289
02:53:23,040 --> 02:53:27,480
Speaker 3: signal lawsuit American Obsit versus HeiG Seth. So that guy

3290
02:53:27,680 --> 02:53:29,520
Speaker 3: that the one who Trump already called for his impeachment

3291
02:53:29,600 --> 02:53:32,800
Speaker 3: right has another crucial case in front of him. What

3292
02:53:32,840 --> 02:53:37,040
Speaker 3: the Trump administration has done in the court case pertaining

3293
02:53:37,120 --> 02:53:40,279
Speaker 3: to the rendition of people to El Salvador is invoked

3294
02:53:40,280 --> 02:53:43,600
Speaker 3: the state secrets privilege in court. Very ironic or very

3295
02:53:43,680 --> 02:53:46,039
Speaker 3: very ironic. They're talking about state secrets now, having just

3296
02:53:46,240 --> 02:53:48,600
Speaker 3: added Jeff Goldberg to the group chat. But that's what

3297
02:53:48,640 --> 02:53:50,879
Speaker 3: they have done. You can go back last week to

3298
02:53:50,959 --> 02:53:53,680
Speaker 3: understand sort of a bit more about where that's coming from.

3299
02:53:54,200 --> 02:53:55,560
Speaker 3: If you didn't listen to last week.

3300
02:53:55,480 --> 02:53:55,840
Speaker 5: Yeah we did.

3301
02:53:55,920 --> 02:53:57,560
Speaker 4: We did a whole episode on it last week.

3302
02:53:58,080 --> 02:54:01,880
Speaker 3: It's also continuing to claim that it didn't quote unquote

3303
02:54:01,920 --> 02:54:05,080
Speaker 3: remove migrants after the tentative restraining order was issued because

3304
02:54:05,080 --> 02:54:07,959
Speaker 3: they'd already been removed. The removal happened when they were

3305
02:54:08,000 --> 02:54:11,000
Speaker 3: loaded onto the plane. Is this argument concurrectly with this

3306
02:54:11,040 --> 02:54:13,800
Speaker 3: as a panel hearing? So that's a panel of three

3307
02:54:13,920 --> 02:54:17,680
Speaker 3: judges right which the government is appealing the attentive restraining order.

3308
02:54:17,920 --> 02:54:21,360
Speaker 3: During this hearing, quote Judge Patricia Millet said, quote the

3309
02:54:21,440 --> 02:54:25,240
Speaker 3: Nazis received better treatment under their Alien Enemies Act than

3310
02:54:25,560 --> 02:54:28,720
Speaker 3: these Venezuelan migrants, which is true. The Nazis had hearings

3311
02:54:28,720 --> 02:54:30,720
Speaker 3: in the nineteen thirties and they didn't just get loaded

3312
02:54:30,720 --> 02:54:34,000
Speaker 3: onto plane in the central work camp. Not a great reflection.

3313
02:54:34,080 --> 02:54:36,680
Speaker 3: And where we're at. The Trump administration is trying to

3314
02:54:36,760 --> 02:54:40,400
Speaker 3: challenge the jurisdiction of Bosberg, saying that they should have

3315
02:54:40,400 --> 02:54:43,960
Speaker 3: filed the same claim in Texas. Meanwhile, then, as whalen

3316
02:54:44,040 --> 02:54:48,320
Speaker 3: governments are filing a colegal claim in El Salvador to

3317
02:54:48,320 --> 02:54:51,760
Speaker 3: deliberate their citizens from SECOD. It's worth noting, of course,

3318
02:54:51,760 --> 02:54:53,360
Speaker 3: that these people, some of them, have been tortured by

3319
02:54:53,400 --> 02:54:57,640
Speaker 3: the Venezuelan government right and chose to flee at no

3320
02:54:57,680 --> 02:55:00,000
Speaker 3: small risk to their lives. Like if people have an

3321
02:55:00,040 --> 02:55:01,560
Speaker 3: listen to some of our older stuff, like I've been

3322
02:55:01,560 --> 02:55:04,000
Speaker 3: to the Darien Gap, which is the way that the

3323
02:55:04,120 --> 02:55:07,280
Speaker 3: vast majority of Venezuelan migrants come. You can listen to

3324
02:55:07,280 --> 02:55:08,959
Speaker 3: my episodes about that if you will know more about

3325
02:55:08,959 --> 02:55:12,280
Speaker 3: why people are leaving Venezuela. We have a little more

3326
02:55:12,400 --> 02:55:14,959
Speaker 3: information on some of the people detained. One of them

3327
02:55:15,040 --> 02:55:18,560
Speaker 3: is a makeup artist. He's a gay man who was

3328
02:55:18,600 --> 02:55:22,640
Speaker 3: beaten by guards as a US photojournalist. Watch another one

3329
02:55:22,680 --> 02:55:26,640
Speaker 3: that Miami Herald is reporting had been granted legal refugee status,

3330
02:55:27,200 --> 02:55:31,160
Speaker 3: So it seems that they sort of randomly grabbed tattooed Venezuelan's.

3331
02:55:31,280 --> 02:55:34,880
Speaker 3: Some of these people have been through background checks already,

3332
02:55:34,959 --> 02:55:37,640
Speaker 3: right at which they will have disclosed their tattoos. That's

3333
02:55:37,680 --> 02:55:39,840
Speaker 3: one of the things that they'll be asked about, and

3334
02:55:39,840 --> 02:55:42,480
Speaker 3: they would have disclosed those. So whether they control eft

3335
02:55:42,520 --> 02:55:45,160
Speaker 3: IT or quite how they came across these people, it's

3336
02:55:45,160 --> 02:55:47,800
Speaker 3: still a little bit unclear. A couple of other things

3337
02:55:47,840 --> 02:55:50,720
Speaker 3: regarding to immigration enforcement this week that have come across

3338
02:55:50,840 --> 02:55:53,959
Speaker 3: my radar but probably don't marrit a whole episode. It's

3339
02:55:54,000 --> 02:55:56,840
Speaker 3: been reported that the IRS is close to an agreement

3340
02:55:56,920 --> 02:55:59,680
Speaker 3: to hand over the tax records of undocumented people it's

3341
02:55:59,720 --> 02:56:02,120
Speaker 3: claimed for decades. If it won't do this, this is

3342
02:56:02,160 --> 02:56:05,400
Speaker 3: why most undocumented people pay taxes, right.

3343
02:56:05,280 --> 02:56:07,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, which is something that the conservatives just like you

3344
02:56:07,120 --> 02:56:10,000
Speaker 4: don't believe, Yes, the like all these undocumented immigrants are

3345
02:56:10,040 --> 02:56:12,400
Speaker 4: aren't paying taxes like the rest of us, Like, no,

3346
02:56:12,520 --> 02:56:13,160
Speaker 4: actually they are.

3347
02:56:13,520 --> 02:56:16,080
Speaker 3: What they're not doing is receiving benefits from those taxes.

3348
02:56:16,200 --> 02:56:19,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, and yes, and this is a great way to

3349
02:56:19,280 --> 02:56:22,480
Speaker 4: have people want to pay less taxes if they're gonna

3350
02:56:22,640 --> 02:56:26,600
Speaker 4: get their information sent over to like the Gestapo, Like.

3351
02:56:26,640 --> 02:56:27,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

3352
02:56:27,560 --> 02:56:27,760
Speaker 5: Yeah.

3353
02:56:28,400 --> 02:56:30,440
Speaker 3: The whole point was to not provide a distance. This

3354
02:56:30,480 --> 02:56:33,960
Speaker 3: is similar to why California gives driver's licenses to undocumented

3355
02:56:33,959 --> 02:56:36,760
Speaker 3: people and allows it to ensure vehicles, right, because you

3356
02:56:36,800 --> 02:56:39,360
Speaker 3: don't want to provide a disincentive to have a driver's license,

3357
02:56:39,400 --> 02:56:41,439
Speaker 3: you don't want to provide a disincentive to have insurance.

3358
02:56:41,760 --> 02:56:44,320
Speaker 3: We have now provided a disincentive to pay your taxes

3359
02:56:44,360 --> 02:56:48,240
Speaker 3: for undocumented people. So yeah, that will have consequences, and

3360
02:56:48,280 --> 02:56:51,320
Speaker 3: it will have consequences, especially in industries right like agriculture

3361
02:56:51,320 --> 02:56:53,120
Speaker 3: and construction and my large numbers of people tend to

3362
02:56:53,120 --> 02:56:58,520
Speaker 3: be undocumented. Talking of undocumented migration, the COMMA secretary Howard

3363
02:56:58,600 --> 02:57:02,160
Speaker 3: Lutnik reports it. He said it on the All In podcast.

3364
02:57:02,440 --> 02:57:05,680
Speaker 3: He has claimed to have already sold one thousand gold cards.

3365
02:57:06,320 --> 02:57:08,680
Speaker 3: So gold cards. If you didn't listen to our previous

3366
02:57:08,680 --> 02:57:09,720
Speaker 3: appoint that is Oh.

3367
02:57:09,600 --> 02:57:11,199
Speaker 5: I feel like I thought I'm getting dizzy.

3368
02:57:11,320 --> 02:57:14,440
Speaker 4: I'm just like, yeah, I am a ill.

3369
02:57:14,720 --> 02:57:14,959
Speaker 1: Yeah.

3370
02:57:15,040 --> 02:57:18,440
Speaker 3: Yeah. There is no process for applying for receiving a

3371
02:57:18,440 --> 02:57:21,680
Speaker 3: gold card yet, so it's extremely unclear what this means

3372
02:57:21,680 --> 02:57:22,840
Speaker 3: in immigration law terms.

3373
02:57:22,840 --> 02:57:26,760
Speaker 4: So he just got like a thousand texts from millionaires

3374
02:57:26,800 --> 02:57:29,320
Speaker 4: being like, yeah, I'll buy one maybe, Like yeah.

3375
02:57:29,120 --> 02:57:32,439
Speaker 3: Well multimillionaires five million each, right, Like so yeah, apparently

3376
02:57:32,959 --> 02:57:36,160
Speaker 3: not quite clear, Like and like he claims he sold them,

3377
02:57:36,160 --> 02:57:38,160
Speaker 3: Like is he going around shopping these around? Is this

3378
02:57:38,200 --> 02:57:41,120
Speaker 3: how they're going to replace a tax revenue from undocumented people? Like,

3379
02:57:41,240 --> 02:57:43,600
Speaker 3: oh my god, no one knows, no, no one knows

3380
02:57:43,640 --> 02:57:48,320
Speaker 3: what this means. Who do you pay? Like very unclear.

3381
02:57:48,520 --> 02:57:52,879
Speaker 3: So yeah, that's great. Uh, that that is that it's

3382
02:57:52,879 --> 02:57:56,960
Speaker 3: the current situation with immigration. I also wanted to add

3383
02:57:57,400 --> 02:57:59,240
Speaker 3: at least three people who were aware of died in

3384
02:57:59,280 --> 02:58:01,480
Speaker 3: San Diego count on the fourteenth of March in a

3385
02:58:01,560 --> 02:58:05,600
Speaker 3: storm while crossing the border. One young woman who survived

3386
02:58:05,879 --> 02:58:09,080
Speaker 3: was found next to the remains of her father, who

3387
02:58:09,120 --> 02:58:13,080
Speaker 3: died of exposure in a winter storm out here. So yeah,

3388
02:58:13,280 --> 02:58:16,440
Speaker 3: the border continues to be doing violence to some of

3389
02:58:16,440 --> 02:58:18,840
Speaker 3: the most marginalized people alive, which is great.

3390
02:58:19,320 --> 02:58:23,720
Speaker 2: We should pop in here. A story just dropped Michael Waltz,

3391
02:58:24,160 --> 02:58:27,840
Speaker 2: the National Security advisor who invited Jeffrey to that group

3392
02:58:27,920 --> 02:58:31,160
Speaker 2: chat journalists have found his public Venmo.

3393
02:58:32,040 --> 02:58:35,119
Speaker 5: Every time with the away Venmo.

3394
02:58:35,200 --> 02:58:41,680
Speaker 2: Quote unquote, it's full of journalists. I'm just gonna read

3395
02:58:41,720 --> 02:58:44,160
Speaker 2: a quote from an article on Prospect dot org.

3396
02:58:44,600 --> 02:58:45,120
Speaker 5: Yeah please.

3397
02:58:45,360 --> 02:58:48,400
Speaker 2: Unsurprisingly, Fox News holds the highest headcount for reporters in

3398
02:58:48,440 --> 02:58:51,040
Speaker 2: Mike Waltz's phone. Griff Jenkins, who's Fox dot com bio

3399
02:58:51,120 --> 02:58:54,480
Speaker 2: listen as a Washington based national correspondent for Fox, is

3400
02:58:54,560 --> 02:58:56,760
Speaker 2: joined on the list by Brian Kilmead, co host of

3401
02:58:56,800 --> 02:58:59,720
Speaker 2: Fox and Friends. Porter Berry, president and editor of Fox Digital,

3402
02:58:59,720 --> 02:59:02,240
Speaker 2: also made the gut But what right wing reporters are

3403
02:59:02,240 --> 02:59:05,080
Speaker 2: not the only ones represented in Waltz's Benmo list, which

3404
02:59:05,120 --> 02:59:08,520
Speaker 2: appears to be less than clean on obsec as Secretary

3405
02:59:08,560 --> 02:59:12,080
Speaker 2: of Defense. Hegseth roat Leland Vittert, a national correspondent for

3406
02:59:12,120 --> 02:59:14,800
Speaker 2: News Nation, is also listed on the digital account, as

3407
02:59:14,840 --> 02:59:17,880
Speaker 2: is Breonna Keeler, an American journalist who currently serves as

3408
02:59:17,879 --> 02:59:20,720
Speaker 2: co anchor of the afternoon edition of CNN News Central.

3409
02:59:21,040 --> 02:59:24,080
Speaker 2: Lauren Pikeoff, an executive producer at MSNBC, is also in

3410
02:59:24,120 --> 02:59:27,760
Speaker 2: Walls's contacts. Earlier this year, Trump tweeted about the network Wow.

3411
02:59:27,840 --> 02:59:30,720
Speaker 2: Rachel Maddow has horrible ratings. She'll be off the air soon.

3412
02:59:31,240 --> 02:59:34,040
Speaker 2: But amidst the broadcasters, producers, and talking heads, one name

3413
02:59:34,080 --> 02:59:37,119
Speaker 2: stands out from the crowd. Judith Miller, who was summarily

3414
02:59:37,160 --> 02:59:39,160
Speaker 2: fired from The New York Times after it was revealed

3415
02:59:39,160 --> 02:59:41,960
Speaker 2: that her reporting on the Iraq war was categorically false

3416
02:59:41,959 --> 02:59:45,000
Speaker 2: and obtained almost verbatim from Vice President Dick Cheney. Her

3417
02:59:45,000 --> 02:59:47,240
Speaker 2: dismissal was the price paid for cozying up too close

3418
02:59:47,280 --> 02:59:51,600
Speaker 2: to an administration set on war. It's just like, Okay,

3419
02:59:52,360 --> 02:59:55,400
Speaker 2: we don't check any of this, we haven't locked anything down.

3420
02:59:55,480 --> 02:59:58,000
Speaker 4: Good having your public venmo itself is crazy.

3421
02:59:58,280 --> 02:59:59,240
Speaker 5: The fact that.

3422
02:59:59,040 --> 03:00:01,680
Speaker 4: He's like the fact that he's like getting like dinner

3423
03:00:01,680 --> 03:00:04,080
Speaker 4: with journalists to be like I'll send you, I'll send

3424
03:00:04,080 --> 03:00:06,680
Speaker 4: you a venmo requests for this, for this sushi.

3425
03:00:07,959 --> 03:00:11,080
Speaker 3: Oh man, they've downloaded his entire friends list and you

3426
03:00:11,080 --> 03:00:11,800
Speaker 3: can just scroll.

3427
03:00:11,920 --> 03:00:13,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know you can see everybody.

3428
03:00:13,879 --> 03:00:16,240
Speaker 4: Oh my god, He's had to get like a fifteen

3429
03:00:16,320 --> 03:00:20,160
Speaker 4: dollars venmo requests from Bryan killmead for getting drinks in

3430
03:00:20,240 --> 03:00:21,600
Speaker 4: a bar, like what are we doing?

3431
03:00:21,920 --> 03:00:23,600
Speaker 3: Oh? What are we doing?

3432
03:00:24,160 --> 03:00:24,400
Speaker 5: Yeah?

3433
03:00:24,480 --> 03:00:26,879
Speaker 2: Also, yeah, how well these people make.

3434
03:00:26,920 --> 03:00:28,800
Speaker 3: Hundreds of thousands if not millions two dollars.

3435
03:00:28,840 --> 03:00:30,360
Speaker 5: You make so much money bucks.

3436
03:00:30,440 --> 03:00:32,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the bat it's just one drink.

3437
03:00:32,280 --> 03:00:35,120
Speaker 4: In DC's so funny. Oh my god.

3438
03:00:36,040 --> 03:00:39,440
Speaker 2: Now I think it's time, folks, that we take a

3439
03:00:39,520 --> 03:00:44,080
Speaker 2: little bit of a detour and talk about tariffs.

3440
03:00:50,320 --> 03:00:52,200
Speaker 5: Rocky Jaspar.

3441
03:00:53,160 --> 03:00:56,640
Speaker 3: Lock Locking.

3442
03:00:58,000 --> 03:01:02,440
Speaker 2: Cking Jasp, Oh my god, I love playing that song.

3443
03:01:02,520 --> 03:01:04,920
Speaker 2: I love playing that song. We don't actually have anything

3444
03:01:04,959 --> 03:01:07,840
Speaker 2: to say about tariffs. MIA's not here. I will note

3445
03:01:07,840 --> 03:01:10,360
Speaker 2: there's a graph going around about the potential cost of

3446
03:01:10,480 --> 03:01:13,760
Speaker 2: Guinness under Trump's tax plan, which is usually around seven

3447
03:01:13,840 --> 03:01:16,480
Speaker 2: dollars per pint in the US and will now be

3448
03:01:16,640 --> 03:01:20,320
Speaker 2: twenty two to twenty seven dollars after Trump's you know,

3449
03:01:20,920 --> 03:01:22,879
Speaker 2: new tariffs for imported alcohol.

3450
03:01:23,000 --> 03:01:25,520
Speaker 3: That reflects its true value because it's also.

3451
03:01:25,440 --> 03:01:28,879
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, absolutely, anyway, We're done. That's all I have

3452
03:01:28,920 --> 03:01:29,840
Speaker 2: to say on tariffs.

3453
03:01:29,879 --> 03:01:32,760
Speaker 4: As long as the twisted tea pricing doesn't get affected,

3454
03:01:32,920 --> 03:01:34,360
Speaker 4: I'll be fine. Then that's good.

3455
03:01:35,000 --> 03:01:37,760
Speaker 3: Good huh I comment.

3456
03:01:39,240 --> 03:01:39,720
Speaker 5: Now.

3457
03:01:39,879 --> 03:01:43,600
Speaker 4: In some more upsetting news, another student at Columbia has

3458
03:01:43,640 --> 03:01:47,959
Speaker 4: been forced into hiding as Ice targets her for deportation.

3459
03:01:49,120 --> 03:01:51,959
Speaker 4: Unsouchung is a twenty one year old permanent resident who

3460
03:01:51,959 --> 03:01:54,360
Speaker 4: immigrated to the United States from Korea with her family

3461
03:01:54,360 --> 03:01:57,520
Speaker 4: when she was seven. On March ninth, she'd received a

3462
03:01:57,520 --> 03:02:02,560
Speaker 4: text message from Homeland Security Investigations, reading, Hyensau, this is

3463
03:02:02,720 --> 03:02:05,879
Speaker 4: Audrey from the police. My job is to reach out

3464
03:02:05,920 --> 03:02:08,520
Speaker 4: to you and see if you have any questions about

3465
03:02:08,640 --> 03:02:11,119
Speaker 4: your recent arrest and the process going forward.

3466
03:02:11,480 --> 03:02:13,080
Speaker 5: What are you available for a phone call?

3467
03:02:14,080 --> 03:02:17,200
Speaker 4: So this message was allegedly in reference to being arrested,

3468
03:02:17,240 --> 03:02:20,199
Speaker 4: among others at a recent sit in protest at Bernard

3469
03:02:20,200 --> 03:02:23,280
Speaker 4: College at Columbia. She was charged and then released with

3470
03:02:23,480 --> 03:02:28,120
Speaker 4: misdemeanor obstruction. So after receiving that like sketchy text, right,

3471
03:02:28,200 --> 03:02:31,400
Speaker 4: something that you should never never respond to, You should

3472
03:02:31,400 --> 03:02:34,680
Speaker 4: immediately send your lawyer. But after receiving this text, Chung

3473
03:02:34,720 --> 03:02:38,600
Speaker 4: got an email from Columbia Public Safety reading quote, the

3474
03:02:38,720 --> 03:02:41,080
Speaker 4: US Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York

3475
03:02:41,160 --> 03:02:44,400
Speaker 4: has asked us to inform you that Homeland Security Investigation

3476
03:02:44,520 --> 03:02:47,160
Speaker 4: agents are seeking to make contact with you in connection

3477
03:02:47,400 --> 03:02:51,760
Speaker 4: with an administrative warrant for your arrest. Consistent with university's practice,

3478
03:02:52,080 --> 03:02:54,920
Speaker 4: we wanted to share this information and their request with you.

3479
03:02:55,040 --> 03:02:57,520
Speaker 4: If you are represented by counsel, it may make sense

3480
03:02:57,520 --> 03:03:01,000
Speaker 4: for your lawyer to speak directly with DHS now. That

3481
03:03:01,240 --> 03:03:03,760
Speaker 4: same day, ICE agents showed up at the home of

3482
03:03:03,840 --> 03:03:07,480
Speaker 4: Chunk's parents, and Chung's lawyer called quote unquote Audrey from

3483
03:03:07,520 --> 03:03:10,000
Speaker 4: the police, who revealed she was actually an ICE agent

3484
03:03:10,400 --> 03:03:12,440
Speaker 4: and stated that there was an administrative warrant for her

3485
03:03:12,560 --> 03:03:15,400
Speaker 4: arrest and that the State Department can revoke Miss Chung's

3486
03:03:15,440 --> 03:03:19,720
Speaker 4: residency status. We're going to talk more about what's happened

3487
03:03:20,080 --> 03:03:22,160
Speaker 4: with miss Chung after this at break.

3488
03:03:34,120 --> 03:03:34,959
Speaker 5: All right, we're back.

3489
03:03:36,800 --> 03:03:40,480
Speaker 4: So when ICE failed to locate this Columbia University student,

3490
03:03:41,120 --> 03:03:44,480
Speaker 4: they started to enlist the help of federal prosecutors. I'm

3491
03:03:44,480 --> 03:03:46,760
Speaker 4: going to quote from the New York Times who broke

3492
03:03:46,800 --> 03:03:47,320
Speaker 4: this story.

3493
03:03:47,400 --> 03:03:47,800
Speaker 5: Quote.

3494
03:03:47,959 --> 03:03:51,160
Speaker 4: On March tenth, Perry Carbone, a high ranking lawyer in

3495
03:03:51,200 --> 03:03:55,160
Speaker 4: the Federal Prosecutor's office, told miss Ahmad, miss Chung's attorney,

3496
03:03:55,480 --> 03:03:58,800
Speaker 4: that the Secretary of State Mark Rubio had revoked Miss

3497
03:03:58,920 --> 03:04:02,600
Speaker 4: Chung's visa. Miss Ahmad responded that Miss Chung was not

3498
03:04:02,840 --> 03:04:05,640
Speaker 4: in the country on a visa and was a permanent resident,

3499
03:04:06,080 --> 03:04:08,959
Speaker 4: according to the lawsuit. Miss car Bone responded that mister

3500
03:04:09,040 --> 03:04:14,520
Speaker 4: Rubio had quote revoked that as well unquote. So this

3501
03:04:14,879 --> 03:04:18,440
Speaker 4: similar to like a mamou Khali like demonstrats that like

3502
03:04:18,480 --> 03:04:21,080
Speaker 4: they have no idea of the of the actual residency

3503
03:04:21,080 --> 03:04:23,360
Speaker 4: status of the people that they are going after. They

3504
03:04:23,360 --> 03:04:26,040
Speaker 4: are just going after non citizens and may eventually start

3505
03:04:26,040 --> 03:04:29,600
Speaker 4: going after citizens too. Like they're just going after people

3506
03:04:29,600 --> 03:04:32,320
Speaker 4: that they assume have like the least amount of protections,

3507
03:04:32,320 --> 03:04:34,480
Speaker 4: whether that's a green card holder, whether that's someone on

3508
03:04:34,520 --> 03:04:36,800
Speaker 4: a student visa or a work visa. They don't really

3509
03:04:37,280 --> 03:04:40,720
Speaker 4: know going in. They're they're they're just going after people. Then,

3510
03:04:40,760 --> 03:04:45,279
Speaker 4: on March thirteenth, ICE searched two residences on campus with warrants,

3511
03:04:45,320 --> 03:04:50,080
Speaker 4: citing a statute for harboring non citizens. The Trump administration

3512
03:04:50,200 --> 03:04:53,520
Speaker 4: is arguing that Chung's presence in the United States hinders

3513
03:04:53,560 --> 03:04:58,080
Speaker 4: the administration's foreign policy agenda. One twenty one year old

3514
03:04:58,120 --> 03:05:00,520
Speaker 4: student who was the Vale Victorian at her eigh school

3515
03:05:00,760 --> 03:05:04,440
Speaker 4: is hindering their foreign policy agenda for attending a sit

3516
03:05:04,560 --> 03:05:08,440
Speaker 4: in protest. Her lawyers note that Chung was not, by

3517
03:05:08,440 --> 03:05:12,400
Speaker 4: any means like a movement leader. She was simply one

3518
03:05:12,480 --> 03:05:15,640
Speaker 4: of hundreds of students who joined in in nationwide protests

3519
03:05:15,680 --> 03:05:19,160
Speaker 4: against Israel's actions in Gaza. Her lawyer's right quote, Miss

3520
03:05:19,240 --> 03:05:21,320
Speaker 4: Chung has not made any public statements to the press

3521
03:05:21,440 --> 03:05:24,959
Speaker 4: or otherwise assumed a high profile role in these protests.

3522
03:05:25,080 --> 03:05:27,920
Speaker 4: She was rather one of a large group of college

3523
03:05:27,920 --> 03:05:33,240
Speaker 4: students raising, expressing, and discussing shared concerns. Chung herself had

3524
03:05:33,280 --> 03:05:37,119
Speaker 4: previously faced a university disciplinary process, which found that Chung

3525
03:05:37,280 --> 03:05:40,880
Speaker 4: was not in violation of any university policy. So in

3526
03:05:40,920 --> 03:05:43,240
Speaker 4: response to the actions of ICE and Homeland Security to

3527
03:05:43,240 --> 03:05:46,360
Speaker 4: try to locate and deport her, Chung went into hiding.

3528
03:05:46,480 --> 03:05:49,039
Speaker 4: Her whereabouts are still unknown as the time of recording,

3529
03:05:49,320 --> 03:05:52,560
Speaker 4: and her lawyers fouled a lawsuit to prevent her deportation,

3530
03:05:52,760 --> 03:05:55,959
Speaker 4: claiming that ICE actions against Chung are illegal and unconstitutional.

3531
03:05:56,160 --> 03:05:59,200
Speaker 4: The lawsuit reads, quote officials that the highest echalons the

3532
03:05:59,200 --> 03:06:02,199
Speaker 4: government are attempting to use immigration enforcement as a bludgeon

3533
03:06:02,240 --> 03:06:05,800
Speaker 4: to suppress speech that they dislike, including Miss Chung's speech.

3534
03:06:06,160 --> 03:06:09,680
Speaker 4: ICE's shocking actions against Miss Chung form part of a

3535
03:06:09,760 --> 03:06:13,640
Speaker 4: larger pattern of attempted US government repression of constitutionally protected

3536
03:06:13,680 --> 03:06:16,160
Speaker 4: protest activity and other forms of speech.

3537
03:06:16,440 --> 03:06:16,880
Speaker 5: Unquote.

3538
03:06:17,640 --> 03:06:20,800
Speaker 4: Now, this past Tuesday, a federal judge granted a temporary

3539
03:06:20,879 --> 03:06:25,240
Speaker 4: restraining order halting efforts from ICE to detain or relocate Chung.

3540
03:06:25,800 --> 03:06:28,080
Speaker 4: The judge said that there is quote nothing in the

3541
03:06:28,160 --> 03:06:31,080
Speaker 4: record indicating that Chung is a danger to the community

3542
03:06:31,320 --> 03:06:35,080
Speaker 4: or a quote unquote foreign policy risk, or that she

3543
03:06:35,200 --> 03:06:38,960
Speaker 4: is communicated with terrorist organizations. The judge said that there

3544
03:06:38,959 --> 03:06:43,440
Speaker 4: would be quote no trips to Louisiana here, referring to

3545
03:06:43,480 --> 03:06:47,840
Speaker 4: the movement of Khalil to ICE attention in Louisiana. A

3546
03:06:47,920 --> 03:06:50,959
Speaker 4: DHS statement said that ICE is going to quote investigate

3547
03:06:51,040 --> 03:06:55,160
Speaker 4: individuals engage in activities in support of hamas a foreign

3548
03:06:55,280 --> 03:06:59,200
Speaker 4: terrorist organization unquote. The statement also claimed that Chung would

3549
03:06:59,240 --> 03:07:02,240
Speaker 4: have an opportunity to present her case before an immigration judge,

3550
03:07:03,040 --> 03:07:06,960
Speaker 4: which is like contrary to incidence of ICE just deporting

3551
03:07:07,000 --> 03:07:11,360
Speaker 4: people before they're legally required hearings, even like in defiance

3552
03:07:11,400 --> 03:07:15,320
Speaker 4: of like extra court orders mandating those hearings. Like ICE

3553
03:07:15,360 --> 03:07:18,080
Speaker 4: is just lying here, and I think it's worth pointing out,

3554
03:07:18,120 --> 03:07:20,800
Speaker 4: like what types of people they are going after right now.

3555
03:07:21,080 --> 03:07:23,400
Speaker 4: One type of person that ICE is going after is

3556
03:07:23,840 --> 03:07:27,360
Speaker 4: like non citizens who were arrested at protests, regardless of

3557
03:07:27,400 --> 03:07:29,200
Speaker 4: what they actually did. Right This can be anything from

3558
03:07:29,640 --> 03:07:31,800
Speaker 4: from standing in the street to doing a sit in

3559
03:07:31,840 --> 03:07:35,920
Speaker 4: protest to just like being arrested on campus and removed

3560
03:07:35,920 --> 03:07:39,160
Speaker 4: by campus police or NYPD. Right, just just any arrest

3561
03:07:39,240 --> 03:07:41,440
Speaker 4: like on record that shows you at one of these

3562
03:07:41,440 --> 03:07:44,959
Speaker 4: protests the other in the cases like Khalil, like he

3563
03:07:45,080 --> 03:07:48,000
Speaker 4: was never arrested. He was the subject of a mass

3564
03:07:48,040 --> 03:07:52,600
Speaker 4: doxing campaign by other students at Columbia, professors and other

3565
03:07:52,760 --> 03:07:56,400
Speaker 4: you know, quote unquote anti Semitism organizations which target high

3566
03:07:56,440 --> 03:08:00,120
Speaker 4: profile activists to create like public pressure against them, and

3567
03:08:00,360 --> 03:08:02,440
Speaker 4: those same lists are now being used by the Trump

3568
03:08:02,440 --> 03:08:04,520
Speaker 4: administration to target students.

3569
03:08:05,560 --> 03:08:09,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, Gita had one, right, Beta. They ultra Zionist people

3570
03:08:09,360 --> 03:08:12,440
Speaker 3: who are going around like attempting to fucking present people

3571
03:08:12,480 --> 03:08:14,720
Speaker 3: with pages. I think they were one of the groups

3572
03:08:14,720 --> 03:08:17,720
Speaker 3: that had created like a quote unquote deportation list. So

3573
03:08:17,760 --> 03:08:21,040
Speaker 3: we should just mention that a tough student, Romesa oz Tuk,

3574
03:08:21,440 --> 03:08:24,440
Speaker 3: was essentially abducted on her way to university.

3575
03:08:24,520 --> 03:08:24,640
Speaker 1: Right.

3576
03:08:24,680 --> 03:08:27,680
Speaker 3: There's video which will link in the show notes here.

3577
03:08:27,840 --> 03:08:30,520
Speaker 4: Very very frightening video of her just standing on the

3578
03:08:30,560 --> 03:08:34,080
Speaker 4: sidewalk as first one man approaches her in like a

3579
03:08:34,200 --> 03:08:36,840
Speaker 4: in like a like a navy hoodie, put mask on

3580
03:08:36,879 --> 03:08:39,400
Speaker 4: his face, approaches her, stops her, and then as soon

3581
03:08:39,400 --> 03:08:41,720
Speaker 4: as they start engaging in conversation, she gets surrounded by

3582
03:08:41,760 --> 03:08:44,280
Speaker 4: like five other people, all wearing like what I would

3583
03:08:44,320 --> 03:08:47,400
Speaker 4: describe as like a gray man block essentially that they

3584
03:08:47,440 --> 03:08:50,360
Speaker 4: then like pull out badges and they like detain her.

3585
03:08:50,440 --> 03:08:52,880
Speaker 4: And it's interesting like as they approach, most of these

3586
03:08:52,879 --> 03:08:55,680
Speaker 4: people are unmasked, and then as soon as people realize

3587
03:08:55,680 --> 03:08:58,720
Speaker 4: what's happening, like like people in the neighborhood it realize

3588
03:08:58,760 --> 03:09:01,480
Speaker 4: what's happening, they all start pulling up like a like

3589
03:09:01,680 --> 03:09:03,680
Speaker 4: half faced mask like gaters gators.

3590
03:09:03,800 --> 03:09:07,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they looked to me more like than anything

3591
03:09:07,680 --> 03:09:10,039
Speaker 2: the way prowd boys dressed a lot, and like Jorany

3592
03:09:10,080 --> 03:09:13,320
Speaker 2: in nineteen twenty twenty. Yeah, it's yeah, like.

3593
03:09:12,959 --> 03:09:17,080
Speaker 3: Like it's extremely concerning, like yes, when you start seeing

3594
03:09:17,120 --> 03:09:20,039
Speaker 3: at these people mass people snatching people off the street, right,

3595
03:09:20,080 --> 03:09:22,480
Speaker 3: She asks if she asked if she can call the cops,

3596
03:09:22,560 --> 03:09:25,200
Speaker 3: and they say, we are the police. It looks like

3597
03:09:25,200 --> 03:09:27,039
Speaker 3: her phone falls out of her hand at some point

3598
03:09:27,320 --> 03:09:30,279
Speaker 3: they take her bag. We know this because it seems

3599
03:09:30,280 --> 03:09:33,600
Speaker 3: like somebody was filming from a building just above and

3600
03:09:33,640 --> 03:09:35,600
Speaker 3: you can hear that people say like why are you

3601
03:09:35,600 --> 03:09:36,840
Speaker 3: covering your person?

3602
03:09:36,879 --> 03:09:37,840
Speaker 5: Saying why are you wearing masks?

3603
03:09:37,840 --> 03:09:38,920
Speaker 3: Why are you covering your faces.

3604
03:09:39,000 --> 03:09:41,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, the guy, the guy filming is like doing

3605
03:09:41,840 --> 03:09:43,560
Speaker 2: about what he can, given the fact that you have

3606
03:09:43,600 --> 03:09:46,000
Speaker 2: to assume he had no real idea what was happening

3607
03:09:46,120 --> 03:09:50,200
Speaker 2: initially other than like something visibly fucked up. Like I'm

3608
03:09:50,240 --> 03:09:52,120
Speaker 2: glad he said the things that he said.

3609
03:09:52,280 --> 03:09:56,200
Speaker 4: But yeah, yeah, she's a Turkish citizen who is in

3610
03:09:56,280 --> 03:10:01,280
Speaker 4: the States on a student visa in Boston, Massachusetts or

3611
03:10:01,280 --> 03:10:02,920
Speaker 4: outside Boston, Massachusetts.

3612
03:10:03,080 --> 03:10:06,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's on a F one visa. So just a

3613
03:10:06,200 --> 03:10:09,360
Speaker 3: couple of dates. A few days before she was seized,

3614
03:10:09,600 --> 03:10:12,440
Speaker 3: she was like her name was published by Canary Mission right.

3615
03:10:12,640 --> 03:10:16,680
Speaker 3: Canary Mission is a Zionist group that has been doxing

3616
03:10:17,280 --> 03:10:20,760
Speaker 3: for Palestine or anti genocide people for several years now.

3617
03:10:21,360 --> 03:10:24,600
Speaker 3: She had co edited an op ed in the Tought

3618
03:10:24,640 --> 03:10:26,400
Speaker 3: Daily last year. It seems to be how they were

3619
03:10:26,440 --> 03:10:28,959
Speaker 3: able to identify her. But as Garrison said, right like,

3620
03:10:29,000 --> 03:10:31,400
Speaker 3: in terms of how they're picking their targets right now,

3621
03:10:31,400 --> 03:10:35,040
Speaker 3: it seems to be heavily tied to these vigilanti zionists,

3622
03:10:35,320 --> 03:10:39,120
Speaker 3: far right groups. I did see that a judge has

3623
03:10:39,160 --> 03:10:41,600
Speaker 3: already ruled that she shouldn't be left, she shouldn't be

3624
03:10:41,680 --> 03:10:44,960
Speaker 3: removed from Massachusetts without further consultation with that judge.

3625
03:10:44,959 --> 03:10:47,000
Speaker 2: And we don't know if she has been or not already.

3626
03:10:47,400 --> 03:10:48,960
Speaker 4: But this is this is continuing to happen, right, we

3627
03:10:49,200 --> 03:10:51,120
Speaker 4: talked about it this last week. I'm going to do

3628
03:10:51,160 --> 03:10:54,119
Speaker 4: a whole episode next week about this, about this issue.

3629
03:10:54,160 --> 03:10:57,560
Speaker 3: She is in Louisiana. Sorry, update, she has already been

3630
03:10:57,560 --> 03:10:59,400
Speaker 3: moved to Louisiana. Yeah, so I'm just reading a truth

3631
03:10:59,400 --> 03:11:03,120
Speaker 3: out piece here. Officials initially did not specify wells have

3632
03:11:03,160 --> 03:11:05,480
Speaker 3: been taken and Canabi it's her lawyer was unable to

3633
03:11:05,520 --> 03:11:08,760
Speaker 3: reach her. Later on Wednesday, Hanabe's said in a motion

3634
03:11:08,840 --> 03:11:10,959
Speaker 3: that she was informed by a senator's office that the

3635
03:11:10,959 --> 03:11:12,959
Speaker 3: student was already transferred to Louisiana.

3636
03:11:13,040 --> 03:11:15,680
Speaker 4: It's like in a matter of hours they worked to

3637
03:11:15,720 --> 03:11:19,039
Speaker 4: get her like outside of her home state, or she

3638
03:11:19,120 --> 03:11:20,920
Speaker 4: probably has more legal protections.

3639
03:11:21,080 --> 03:11:23,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not something that's super uncommon. I've seen them

3640
03:11:23,879 --> 03:11:26,400
Speaker 3: do this with what they called lateral transfers under Title

3641
03:11:26,440 --> 03:11:30,720
Speaker 3: forty two, where they would move people. Under Title forty two,

3642
03:11:30,720 --> 03:11:32,879
Speaker 3: they can immediately return people to Mexico, right, And what

3643
03:11:32,920 --> 03:11:35,200
Speaker 3: they would do is is laterally transfer them along the

3644
03:11:35,240 --> 03:11:38,560
Speaker 3: border and return them to another location in Mexico, which

3645
03:11:38,600 --> 03:11:41,400
Speaker 3: obviously led to them being completely dislocated when they were

3646
03:11:41,600 --> 03:11:42,440
Speaker 3: dropped in Mexico.

3647
03:11:42,959 --> 03:11:44,760
Speaker 4: Something else that I want to note is the use

3648
03:11:44,800 --> 03:11:48,520
Speaker 4: of this harboring non citizens warrant. Like, one problem that

3649
03:11:48,560 --> 03:11:50,760
Speaker 4: ICE can run into often is that people can choose

3650
03:11:50,800 --> 03:11:53,640
Speaker 4: just to not answer the door. I usually likes to

3651
03:11:53,640 --> 03:11:55,720
Speaker 4: rely on people that have already been arrested or already

3652
03:11:55,720 --> 03:11:57,920
Speaker 4: detained by like police, Right, that makes it much easier

3653
03:11:57,920 --> 03:12:01,680
Speaker 4: for immigration officials to find people without that locating people

3654
03:12:01,680 --> 03:12:03,840
Speaker 4: can be a little bit harder with the use of

3655
03:12:03,879 --> 03:12:06,840
Speaker 4: this like harboring non citizens warrant, that shows like there's

3656
03:12:06,840 --> 03:12:09,000
Speaker 4: trying to create this precedent for being able to actually

3657
03:12:09,080 --> 03:12:11,680
Speaker 4: break into more people's homes even though you know she

3658
03:12:11,800 --> 03:12:15,560
Speaker 4: had a permanent resident status. This is just like in

3659
03:12:15,640 --> 03:12:18,000
Speaker 4: terms of the tactics being used, similar to like you

3660
03:12:18,040 --> 03:12:20,800
Speaker 4: know this all these like gray man block people approaching

3661
03:12:20,840 --> 03:12:22,959
Speaker 4: you on the street one by one. That's like a

3662
03:12:23,000 --> 03:12:26,879
Speaker 4: tactic to take note of. The use of this type

3663
03:12:26,879 --> 03:12:29,879
Speaker 4: of warrant is also something to take note of. We

3664
03:12:29,920 --> 03:12:32,039
Speaker 4: are already at that point where people are like are

3665
03:12:32,080 --> 03:12:36,720
Speaker 4: like going into hiding, right, This is like very very

3666
03:12:36,760 --> 03:12:39,560
Speaker 4: like dystopian ya coded stuff where you're like, you are

3667
03:12:39,720 --> 03:12:42,080
Speaker 4: literally as like as a twenty one year old like

3668
03:12:42,200 --> 03:12:47,440
Speaker 4: junior being forced to go into hiding because federal agents

3669
03:12:47,480 --> 03:12:51,240
Speaker 4: are after you because you sat down. Yeah, you sat

3670
03:12:51,240 --> 03:12:54,000
Speaker 4: down in front of a building in protest of a genocide.

3671
03:12:54,040 --> 03:12:56,720
Speaker 4: You're not even a movement leader, and this this type

3672
03:12:56,760 --> 03:12:59,240
Speaker 4: of thing shouldn't even happen to quote unquote movement leaders.

3673
03:12:59,040 --> 03:13:02,320
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, if the very First Amendment protects your right

3674
03:13:02,360 --> 03:13:03,120
Speaker 3: to do that exactly.

3675
03:13:03,200 --> 03:13:03,440
Speaker 2: Yeah.

3676
03:13:03,680 --> 03:13:06,160
Speaker 4: But like, regardless of whether or not you're involved in

3677
03:13:06,280 --> 03:13:09,720
Speaker 4: the planning the organization, whether or not you're making statements depressed,

3678
03:13:09,840 --> 03:13:12,240
Speaker 4: whether or not you're you're you're giving speeches, if you

3679
03:13:12,360 --> 03:13:14,600
Speaker 4: just attend these sorts of things, you are you are

3680
03:13:14,640 --> 03:13:19,520
Speaker 4: a target by what is like very obviously a modern

3681
03:13:19,600 --> 03:13:21,920
Speaker 4: version of like gestopo like actions.

3682
03:13:22,840 --> 03:13:23,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

3683
03:13:23,360 --> 03:13:26,000
Speaker 3: I think it's also quite revealing that she's somewhat successfully

3684
03:13:26,000 --> 03:13:28,440
Speaker 3: gone into hiding, right, Like it suggests that, yeah, their

3685
03:13:28,480 --> 03:13:30,800
Speaker 3: intelligent operation is not so advioleance that they were able

3686
03:13:30,800 --> 03:13:31,800
Speaker 3: to immediately find her.

3687
03:13:32,200 --> 03:13:35,000
Speaker 2: Well, no, because again, the resources to do stuff like

3688
03:13:35,720 --> 03:13:38,879
Speaker 2: trace somebody down by their shoes from like surveillance camera

3689
03:13:38,920 --> 03:13:41,840
Speaker 2: footage exists. We saw it used on those lawyers who

3690
03:13:41,920 --> 03:13:45,280
Speaker 2: let a police vehicle fire at twenty twenty. But like,

3691
03:13:45,840 --> 03:13:49,080
Speaker 2: there's not really much in the way a crime's going

3692
03:13:49,120 --> 03:13:51,840
Speaker 2: on here, and there also had there's so many of

3693
03:13:51,840 --> 03:13:54,040
Speaker 2: these people, Like the idea that you would you would

3694
03:13:54,120 --> 03:13:56,000
Speaker 2: pull all of the footage that you would need to

3695
03:13:56,040 --> 03:13:58,400
Speaker 2: track every one of these, it's just it's just not feasible.

3696
03:13:58,440 --> 03:14:01,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think they're just go after someone else,

3697
03:14:01,200 --> 03:14:03,760
Speaker 3: right to get the headline. But I'll be following this

3698
03:14:03,800 --> 03:14:06,800
Speaker 3: one with interest because it's sort of it's sort of

3699
03:14:06,840 --> 03:14:09,440
Speaker 3: an alternative outcome to the other ones that we've seen

3700
03:14:09,520 --> 03:14:12,840
Speaker 3: so far, So it'll just be revelatory to see how

3701
03:14:12,879 --> 03:14:16,800
Speaker 3: it goes. Yeah, So if you want to contact us

3702
03:14:16,920 --> 03:14:19,720
Speaker 3: about any of this, maybe if you're seeing things happening

3703
03:14:19,760 --> 03:14:22,760
Speaker 3: on your campus, if you have anything you'd like to share,

3704
03:14:22,840 --> 03:14:24,879
Speaker 3: or the things that you think we've missed, you can

3705
03:14:24,959 --> 03:14:28,400
Speaker 3: do so. The email address is cool Zone tips at

3706
03:14:28,560 --> 03:14:32,760
Speaker 3: proton dot me. Proton Mail is an encrypted email service.

3707
03:14:32,800 --> 03:14:35,800
Speaker 3: It's only end to end encrypted like signal. If you

3708
03:14:35,840 --> 03:14:39,360
Speaker 3: send it from a proton mail address, don't copy any

3709
03:14:39,400 --> 03:14:43,760
Speaker 3: Atlantic journalists on your email, and you should be good

3710
03:14:43,760 --> 03:14:44,120
Speaker 3: to go.

3711
03:14:45,720 --> 03:14:47,840
Speaker 4: Thank you to everyone who's been sending those messages. It

3712
03:14:47,840 --> 03:14:49,480
Speaker 4: does take time for us to go through all of them.

3713
03:14:49,520 --> 03:14:51,760
Speaker 4: Not all of them will have a response, but we

3714
03:14:51,840 --> 03:14:52,760
Speaker 4: are reading them.

3715
03:14:52,800 --> 03:14:53,120
Speaker 2: Thank you.

3716
03:14:53,640 --> 03:14:55,959
Speaker 4: I am still working on a piece in the Lavender scare.

3717
03:14:56,320 --> 03:14:59,920
Speaker 4: There's a lot of stuff happening regarding you know, suppres

3718
03:15:00,760 --> 03:15:04,520
Speaker 4: and going after trans people in the military. This takes time,

3719
03:15:04,920 --> 03:15:09,080
Speaker 4: but we are working on that, slowly but surely, as

3720
03:15:09,080 --> 03:15:12,320
Speaker 4: well as stuff regarding ice, targeting students and what's going

3721
03:15:12,320 --> 03:15:15,840
Speaker 4: on in Colombia. So we appreciate that. The last thing

3722
03:15:15,840 --> 03:15:18,680
Speaker 4: I want to talk about is this past Monday, the

3723
03:15:18,760 --> 03:15:22,880
Speaker 4: IDF killed two Palestinian journalists in Gaza in separate air strikes.

3724
03:15:23,520 --> 03:15:27,279
Speaker 4: Mohammed Mansour, who works for Palestine Today, was killed quote

3725
03:15:27,280 --> 03:15:29,760
Speaker 4: in his house in southern Gaza, alongside his wife and

3726
03:15:29,800 --> 03:15:32,920
Speaker 4: his son without any prior warning, according to Al Jazeira.

3727
03:15:33,400 --> 03:15:35,560
Speaker 4: Later that day, the IDF killed a twenty three year

3728
03:15:35,560 --> 03:15:39,840
Speaker 4: old a Palestinian journalist, Hassam Shabbat, in a targeted airstrike

3729
03:15:40,080 --> 03:15:43,600
Speaker 4: while he was driving his car in northern Gaza. I

3730
03:15:43,640 --> 03:15:47,560
Speaker 4: want to read this statement from Hassam quote. If you're

3731
03:15:47,600 --> 03:15:49,600
Speaker 4: reading this, it means I have been killed, most likely

3732
03:15:49,640 --> 03:15:53,280
Speaker 4: targeted by the Israeli occupation forces. When all this began,

3733
03:15:53,360 --> 03:15:55,520
Speaker 4: I was only twenty one years old, a college student

3734
03:15:55,560 --> 03:15:57,959
Speaker 4: with dreams like anyone else. For the past eighteen months,

3735
03:15:58,000 --> 03:15:59,959
Speaker 4: I've dedicated every moment of my life to my peak.

3736
03:16:00,360 --> 03:16:03,160
Speaker 4: I documented the horrors in northern Gaza, minute by minute,

3737
03:16:03,200 --> 03:16:06,080
Speaker 4: determined to show the world the truth they tried to bury.

3738
03:16:06,360 --> 03:16:09,800
Speaker 4: I slept on pavements, in schools, intense anywhere I could.

3739
03:16:10,080 --> 03:16:13,000
Speaker 4: Each day was a battle for survival. I endured hunger

3740
03:16:13,080 --> 03:16:16,520
Speaker 4: for months, yet I never left my people's side. By God,

3741
03:16:16,600 --> 03:16:19,160
Speaker 4: I fulfilled my duty as a journalist. I risked everything

3742
03:16:19,200 --> 03:16:22,720
Speaker 4: to report the truth, and now I am finally at rest,

3743
03:16:22,879 --> 03:16:26,200
Speaker 4: something I haven't known in the past eighteen months. I

3744
03:16:26,280 --> 03:16:29,080
Speaker 4: did all this because I believe in the Palestinian cause.

3745
03:16:29,400 --> 03:16:31,720
Speaker 4: I believe this land is ours, and it has been

3746
03:16:31,920 --> 03:16:34,400
Speaker 4: the highest honor of my life to die defending it

3747
03:16:34,680 --> 03:16:37,840
Speaker 4: and serving its people. I ask you now, do not

3748
03:16:38,040 --> 03:16:41,240
Speaker 4: stop speaking about Gaza. Do not let the world look away,

3749
03:16:41,560 --> 03:16:47,439
Speaker 4: keep fighting, keep telling our stories until Palestine is free.

3750
03:16:48,520 --> 03:16:51,720
Speaker 2: Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

3751
03:16:51,760 --> 03:16:53,680
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the universe.

3752
03:16:54,000 --> 03:16:54,600
Speaker 5: It could happen.

3753
03:16:54,640 --> 03:16:57,039
Speaker 9: Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more

3754
03:16:57,080 --> 03:17:00,560
Speaker 9: podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website zon media

3755
03:17:00,600 --> 03:17:03,400
Speaker 9: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

3756
03:17:03,480 --> 03:17:07,039
Speaker 9: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

3757
03:17:07,080 --> 03:17:09,400
Speaker 9: now find sources for it could happen here, listed directly

3758
03:17:09,440 --> 03:17:11,720
Speaker 9: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.