1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:20,356 Speaker 1: Pushkin it. 2 00:00:21,036 --> 00:00:22,116 Speaker 2: Hello, I made it. 3 00:00:22,356 --> 00:00:26,156 Speaker 1: Happy birthday, thank you. It's my mom's seventieth birthday, and 4 00:00:26,156 --> 00:00:28,996 Speaker 1: so she's come to visit me at Yale. Tomorrow morning, 5 00:00:28,996 --> 00:00:31,436 Speaker 1: we're heading off somewhere sunny for a short vacation together. 6 00:00:31,996 --> 00:00:35,036 Speaker 1: But tonight we just want to relax a bit. My 7 00:00:35,116 --> 00:00:37,036 Speaker 1: mom had been on the road for a while and 8 00:00:37,076 --> 00:00:39,996 Speaker 1: so I really wanted her to get some food to eat. 9 00:00:40,476 --> 00:00:41,236 Speaker 2: Where can we go? 10 00:00:41,916 --> 00:00:44,076 Speaker 1: Well, it's new Aands we didn't go anywhere. 11 00:00:44,556 --> 00:00:45,396 Speaker 2: Asian nodults. 12 00:00:45,796 --> 00:00:49,196 Speaker 1: Foodies love New Haven. It's a town filled with gourmet restaurants, 13 00:00:49,316 --> 00:00:52,836 Speaker 1: funky hipster bars, world famous pizza joints, and even food trucks. 14 00:00:53,316 --> 00:00:55,716 Speaker 1: Whatever you're in the mood for, it's usually just a 15 00:00:55,716 --> 00:00:56,516 Speaker 1: few blocks away. 16 00:00:57,196 --> 00:01:04,156 Speaker 2: Pizza to cheesy, to cheesy, Mexican food spicy. 17 00:01:05,076 --> 00:01:07,116 Speaker 1: My mom's a picky eater and we don't always have 18 00:01:07,156 --> 00:01:10,436 Speaker 1: the same preferences, but in New Hay we're usually okay. 19 00:01:10,996 --> 00:01:13,716 Speaker 2: Sushi, no, you're a sushi koreene. 20 00:01:13,876 --> 00:01:16,716 Speaker 1: Fried chicken, No, I don't really like Asian food. 21 00:01:16,836 --> 00:01:17,996 Speaker 2: Regular chicken would be good. 22 00:01:18,276 --> 00:01:21,596 Speaker 1: Fifteen minutes and about one hundred options later, we finally 23 00:01:21,596 --> 00:01:24,316 Speaker 1: find a place that works, a restaurant that does great 24 00:01:24,356 --> 00:01:32,716 Speaker 1: salads made to order, beta tofu, olives, bacon, archo carts, gorgonzola, avocado, walnuts, crasins, crasins, crasins, 25 00:01:32,796 --> 00:01:34,036 Speaker 1: dressing on the side. 26 00:01:34,436 --> 00:01:34,676 Speaker 2: Yep. 27 00:01:35,196 --> 00:01:37,716 Speaker 1: I usually feel really blessed to have such a variety 28 00:01:37,716 --> 00:01:40,676 Speaker 1: of tasty cuisine on my doorsteps, and having the ability 29 00:01:40,716 --> 00:01:44,596 Speaker 1: to customize all the ingredients in our order usually feels empowering, 30 00:01:45,196 --> 00:01:48,916 Speaker 1: like we're in control, whitefish. But as I scrolled through 31 00:01:48,996 --> 00:01:52,836 Speaker 1: restaurant after restaurant, menu after menu with my mom, I 32 00:01:52,876 --> 00:01:56,476 Speaker 1: started to feel a bit drained, a bit depleted, maybe 33 00:01:56,516 --> 00:01:59,996 Speaker 1: even a bit defeated. All right, that's what you want, 34 00:02:00,036 --> 00:02:04,596 Speaker 1: m Okay, great ordered, Yay. 35 00:02:06,516 --> 00:02:07,236 Speaker 3: It's your birthday. 36 00:02:07,236 --> 00:02:08,316 Speaker 2: You get to get what you need. 37 00:02:09,236 --> 00:02:11,796 Speaker 1: So what if our obsession with choice isn't all that 38 00:02:11,836 --> 00:02:15,436 Speaker 1: it's cracked up to be. What if all this choice 39 00:02:15,796 --> 00:02:19,556 Speaker 1: is making us less satisfied and more unhappy than we think. 40 00:02:28,876 --> 00:02:30,956 Speaker 1: Our minds are constantly telling us what to do to 41 00:02:30,996 --> 00:02:33,756 Speaker 1: be happy. But what if our minds are wrong? What 42 00:02:33,836 --> 00:02:36,476 Speaker 1: if our minds are lying to us, leading us away 43 00:02:36,676 --> 00:02:39,796 Speaker 1: from what will really make us happy. The good news 44 00:02:39,916 --> 00:02:42,276 Speaker 1: is that understanding the science of the mind can point 45 00:02:42,356 --> 00:02:45,316 Speaker 1: us all back in the right direction. You're listening to 46 00:02:45,436 --> 00:03:00,516 Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab with doctor Laurie Santims. Louis, I'm sitting 47 00:03:00,676 --> 00:03:03,596 Speaker 1: in Louise's Lunch, which is said to be the birthplace 48 00:03:03,756 --> 00:03:06,596 Speaker 1: of an American classic. It's just down the street from 49 00:03:06,596 --> 00:03:12,636 Speaker 1: my house. Around nineteen hundred, Louis Lassen, Danish immigrant and 50 00:03:12,716 --> 00:03:17,916 Speaker 1: lunch wagon proprietor, was dealing with the difficult customer. According 51 00:03:17,956 --> 00:03:21,476 Speaker 1: to family legend, a regular named Gary Widmore hurried in 52 00:03:21,556 --> 00:03:24,396 Speaker 1: and shouted, slap a meat puck between two planks and 53 00:03:24,476 --> 00:03:27,356 Speaker 1: step on it. But Louis was out of whole steaks. 54 00:03:27,876 --> 00:03:30,516 Speaker 1: Trying to placate the man, Louis quickly grilled up some 55 00:03:30,596 --> 00:03:33,556 Speaker 1: ground beef trimmings, stuck it between two slices of toast, 56 00:03:33,716 --> 00:03:37,156 Speaker 1: and headed it off with that hurried act. It's said 57 00:03:37,236 --> 00:03:41,356 Speaker 1: that the first American hamburger was invented. There's still some 58 00:03:41,396 --> 00:03:45,156 Speaker 1: controversy about this origin story. But what makes Louis Lunch 59 00:03:45,196 --> 00:03:48,516 Speaker 1: different from the other alleged hamburger creators is the fact 60 00:03:48,556 --> 00:03:51,756 Speaker 1: that they've doubled down on the very sandwich that people 61 00:03:51,796 --> 00:03:55,076 Speaker 1: loved a hundred years ago. When you walk into Louis's 62 00:03:55,116 --> 00:03:58,516 Speaker 1: Lunch today, you can order the same burger that Widmore enjoyed, 63 00:03:58,836 --> 00:04:02,196 Speaker 1: but pretty much nothing else. You can add cheese, tomato, 64 00:04:02,236 --> 00:04:06,436 Speaker 1: and onion, but that's it. No bacon, no lettuce, just 65 00:04:06,476 --> 00:04:10,116 Speaker 1: a straight up burger. And never ever ask the staff 66 00:04:10,116 --> 00:04:13,316 Speaker 1: for ketchup. If somebody came in and asked you, guys 67 00:04:13,316 --> 00:04:14,476 Speaker 1: for ketchup, what would you say? 68 00:04:14,596 --> 00:04:16,516 Speaker 4: We politely decline it most of the time. 69 00:04:17,196 --> 00:04:20,556 Speaker 1: That's Jeff Laarson, Louise's great grandson and the current owner. 70 00:04:21,676 --> 00:04:25,076 Speaker 1: One of the cooks gave us a slightly more nuanced reply, well, we. 71 00:04:25,076 --> 00:04:27,116 Speaker 3: Really does the hell out of here and don't come back. 72 00:04:28,116 --> 00:04:30,636 Speaker 1: Loui's unique selling point is the fact that you don't 73 00:04:30,636 --> 00:04:34,356 Speaker 1: have to choose. In fact, you can't, which makes walking 74 00:04:34,436 --> 00:04:37,996 Speaker 1: into Louie's Lunch a very different experience than entering any 75 00:04:37,996 --> 00:04:41,676 Speaker 1: other New Haven restaurant. Their menus feel like a small book. 76 00:04:42,236 --> 00:04:44,556 Speaker 4: A lot of people and restaurants do have a lot 77 00:04:44,556 --> 00:04:47,156 Speaker 4: of options, and they try to cater to everybody. But 78 00:04:47,956 --> 00:04:50,756 Speaker 4: we stick to what we do best and what we've 79 00:04:50,796 --> 00:04:52,796 Speaker 4: been doing for one hundred and twenty four years, and 80 00:04:52,876 --> 00:04:55,956 Speaker 4: that's keeping it chiple and making it easy for not 81 00:04:56,036 --> 00:04:59,036 Speaker 4: only ourselves but everybody else. And when you do that, 82 00:04:59,516 --> 00:05:01,836 Speaker 4: and do what you do best. I think you have 83 00:05:01,876 --> 00:05:03,476 Speaker 4: a better product, But. 84 00:05:03,436 --> 00:05:06,356 Speaker 1: As Jeff Wright, do you really have a better product 85 00:05:06,516 --> 00:05:10,436 Speaker 1: when you limit your customer's choices? Wouldn't having more options 86 00:05:10,516 --> 00:05:15,476 Speaker 1: actually make our experience better? That's what psychologists Sena Hiangar 87 00:05:15,556 --> 00:05:18,196 Speaker 1: and Mark Lepper set out to test in a famous study. 88 00:05:18,596 --> 00:05:21,756 Speaker 1: They headed to one of Aangar's favorite shops, the famous 89 00:05:21,836 --> 00:05:25,396 Speaker 1: Drager's Market, a high end store in Menlo Park, California, 90 00:05:26,156 --> 00:05:29,236 Speaker 1: for two Saturday afternoons in a row. Aangar and Lepper 91 00:05:29,276 --> 00:05:32,396 Speaker 1: had research assistants dress up Lake store employees near a 92 00:05:32,396 --> 00:05:35,836 Speaker 1: table at the entrance. Customers who stopped by were promised 93 00:05:35,836 --> 00:05:38,436 Speaker 1: a dollar off their purchase of high end Wilkins and 94 00:05:38,436 --> 00:05:41,516 Speaker 1: Son's jam if they tried some free samples. What the 95 00:05:41,596 --> 00:05:44,876 Speaker 1: researchers varied was how many jams people had a chance 96 00:05:44,916 --> 00:05:50,036 Speaker 1: to taste. Some customers could sample six different kinds of jam, Kiwi, peach, 97 00:05:50,316 --> 00:05:54,436 Speaker 1: black cherry, three fruits, marmalade, lemon, curd red currant, which 98 00:05:54,636 --> 00:05:57,396 Speaker 1: you might think already sounds like a lot. But at 99 00:05:57,396 --> 00:06:02,356 Speaker 1: other times, the researchers increased that jam selection fourfold. People 100 00:06:02,396 --> 00:06:05,676 Speaker 1: had a chance to sample a whopping twenty four different 101 00:06:05,756 --> 00:06:08,476 Speaker 1: kinds of jam. Did the difference in the number of 102 00:06:08,556 --> 00:06:12,916 Speaker 1: jams of them affect people's behaviors? Well, twenty percent more 103 00:06:12,956 --> 00:06:15,716 Speaker 1: people stopped at the table when twenty four jams were 104 00:06:15,716 --> 00:06:18,956 Speaker 1: on offer, which makes sense, right, more jams to sample, 105 00:06:19,236 --> 00:06:21,796 Speaker 1: more people show up to check them out. But did 106 00:06:21,796 --> 00:06:25,276 Speaker 1: the number of people who bought something increase? After all, 107 00:06:25,556 --> 00:06:28,316 Speaker 1: those customers had a chance to sample nearly all the 108 00:06:28,356 --> 00:06:32,156 Speaker 1: available Wilkins and sun jams in existence, so they surely 109 00:06:32,196 --> 00:06:36,156 Speaker 1: found one they liked. But surprisingly, that's not what happened. 110 00:06:36,636 --> 00:06:39,396 Speaker 1: With six jams to taste, About thirty percent of people 111 00:06:39,476 --> 00:06:42,156 Speaker 1: ended up using their coupon, but when shoppers were faced 112 00:06:42,156 --> 00:06:45,716 Speaker 1: with twenty four jams, only three percent made a purchase. 113 00:06:46,276 --> 00:06:49,476 Speaker 1: Ten times more customers bought something when they were given 114 00:06:49,556 --> 00:06:55,116 Speaker 1: fewer options. Paradoxically, giving people more choice made people buy 115 00:06:55,396 --> 00:06:56,076 Speaker 1: less stuff. 116 00:06:59,036 --> 00:07:02,636 Speaker 2: Everyone has had the experience of walking into a store 117 00:07:03,076 --> 00:07:05,276 Speaker 2: and just wanting to turn around and walk out. 118 00:07:05,716 --> 00:07:08,356 Speaker 1: This is Barry Schwartz, a professor at the Hot School 119 00:07:08,396 --> 00:07:11,436 Speaker 1: of Business at UC Berkeley. He has written an entire 120 00:07:11,436 --> 00:07:14,436 Speaker 1: book drawing on experiments like that jam study. They pretty 121 00:07:14,476 --> 00:07:17,036 Speaker 1: much all show the same thing. When we're faced with 122 00:07:17,156 --> 00:07:20,596 Speaker 1: lots of options, we become paralyzed by them. So he 123 00:07:20,676 --> 00:07:22,916 Speaker 1: called his book The Paradox of Choice. 124 00:07:23,236 --> 00:07:26,516 Speaker 2: There's a set of beliefs that are so deeply embedded 125 00:07:26,556 --> 00:07:28,276 Speaker 2: in us that I don't even think we realize we 126 00:07:28,356 --> 00:07:32,396 Speaker 2: hold them, and that is that if you want to 127 00:07:32,596 --> 00:07:35,956 Speaker 2: enhance people's well being, you want to enhance their freedom. 128 00:07:36,316 --> 00:07:39,276 Speaker 2: And if you want to enhance their freedom, you have 129 00:07:39,356 --> 00:07:43,876 Speaker 2: to enhance their choice. And that seems so obviously true 130 00:07:44,316 --> 00:07:48,276 Speaker 2: that it didn't occur to anyone to investigate it. 131 00:07:48,276 --> 00:07:51,436 Speaker 1: It occurred to Barry, though, he's spent decades figuring out 132 00:07:51,436 --> 00:07:54,276 Speaker 1: how this explosion of choice is affecting our well being. 133 00:07:55,036 --> 00:07:57,796 Speaker 1: He started simply. He just walked the aisles of his 134 00:07:57,876 --> 00:07:59,956 Speaker 1: local supermarket and began counting. 135 00:08:00,156 --> 00:08:02,676 Speaker 2: There were two hundred and seventy five different kinds of 136 00:08:02,676 --> 00:08:06,036 Speaker 2: cookies and one hundred and fifty salad dressings, thirty different 137 00:08:06,116 --> 00:08:10,036 Speaker 2: kinds of aspirin. The only way we get through a 138 00:08:10,076 --> 00:08:12,876 Speaker 2: trip to the supermarket is that ninety five percent of 139 00:08:12,876 --> 00:08:15,356 Speaker 2: what we buy is the same stuff we bought last week, 140 00:08:15,596 --> 00:08:18,236 Speaker 2: and everything else is invisible to us. And if we 141 00:08:18,276 --> 00:08:21,676 Speaker 2: actually started paying attention to everything, we starve to death 142 00:08:21,756 --> 00:08:24,276 Speaker 2: before we finished our weekly shopping trip. 143 00:08:24,916 --> 00:08:27,756 Speaker 1: Barry got me thinking about the seemingly minor choices I 144 00:08:27,796 --> 00:08:32,276 Speaker 1: face on a daily basis. It's dizzying take blopping down 145 00:08:32,316 --> 00:08:35,556 Speaker 1: to watch something on Netflix. Even if I just look 146 00:08:35,596 --> 00:08:40,196 Speaker 1: at what Netflix recommends for me personally, it's overwhelming. It 147 00:08:40,236 --> 00:08:42,036 Speaker 1: can feel like hundreds of options. 148 00:08:42,436 --> 00:08:44,556 Speaker 2: There's some little bit of evidence that what happens when 149 00:08:44,556 --> 00:08:47,276 Speaker 2: you do that is people end up just throwing up 150 00:08:47,316 --> 00:08:50,236 Speaker 2: their hands and watching a movie they've already seen. They 151 00:08:50,276 --> 00:08:52,756 Speaker 2: go for the familiar because they can't figure out how 152 00:08:52,796 --> 00:08:54,236 Speaker 2: to choose among the unfamiliar. 153 00:08:54,796 --> 00:08:57,276 Speaker 1: I started to do the math on just how overwhelming 154 00:08:57,316 --> 00:09:00,036 Speaker 1: some of these choices are. Take a visit to one 155 00:09:00,116 --> 00:09:03,836 Speaker 1: well known coffee shop, it's Starbucks. How many different drink 156 00:09:03,876 --> 00:09:09,116 Speaker 1: options does that company offer? It turns out over eighty thousand, 157 00:09:10,076 --> 00:09:14,316 Speaker 1: eighty thousand. To put that in perspective, if I went 158 00:09:14,356 --> 00:09:18,436 Speaker 1: to that coffee shop Starbucks three times a day, every 159 00:09:18,476 --> 00:09:21,396 Speaker 1: single day for the rest of my life, I'd need 160 00:09:21,436 --> 00:09:23,876 Speaker 1: to live to one hundred and fifteen years old just 161 00:09:23,916 --> 00:09:27,476 Speaker 1: to try all those permutations. And that's not even including 162 00:09:27,516 --> 00:09:31,556 Speaker 1: the seasonal pumpkin spice drinks. Do we seriously need that 163 00:09:31,716 --> 00:09:35,516 Speaker 1: many choices? And say you do discover that perfect coffee 164 00:09:35,676 --> 00:09:39,236 Speaker 1: and that huge haystack of choice, the tragic thing is 165 00:09:40,036 --> 00:09:44,116 Speaker 1: you won't actually enjoy it all that much. Our minds 166 00:09:44,156 --> 00:09:47,156 Speaker 1: might tell us that finding the best of eighty thousand 167 00:09:47,156 --> 00:09:50,276 Speaker 1: options will feel like an achievement, but that's simply not 168 00:09:50,396 --> 00:09:54,076 Speaker 1: the case. One study had people imagine trying to find 169 00:09:54,116 --> 00:09:57,156 Speaker 1: a greeting card for a coworker, either picking from shelf 170 00:09:57,196 --> 00:09:59,756 Speaker 1: after shelf of cards or just a limit its selection. 171 00:10:00,756 --> 00:10:03,676 Speaker 1: Who turned out to be the least satisfied with their purchase. 172 00:10:04,316 --> 00:10:07,236 Speaker 1: You guessed it, the shoppers with the gazillion choices. 173 00:10:07,476 --> 00:10:10,236 Speaker 2: It's so easy to imagine that one of the options 174 00:10:10,236 --> 00:10:12,876 Speaker 2: they rejected would have been better than the one they chose. 175 00:10:13,636 --> 00:10:16,876 Speaker 2: The more you compare, the more the thing you've chosen suffers. 176 00:10:17,236 --> 00:10:19,396 Speaker 2: So you end up making a good decision and feeling 177 00:10:19,476 --> 00:10:20,156 Speaker 2: bad about it. 178 00:10:20,356 --> 00:10:23,236 Speaker 1: And that is the cruel irony of all these choices. 179 00:10:24,036 --> 00:10:27,116 Speaker 1: When lots of options are present, Even if we do well, 180 00:10:27,316 --> 00:10:32,116 Speaker 1: we still feel worse. But lack of satisfaction isn't the 181 00:10:32,116 --> 00:10:35,636 Speaker 1: only issue with all these choices. There's a bigger problem. 182 00:10:35,836 --> 00:10:38,716 Speaker 1: Our poor minds just can't handle comparing one hundred greeting 183 00:10:38,756 --> 00:10:42,796 Speaker 1: cards or eighty thousand coffee drinks all at once. Human 184 00:10:42,796 --> 00:10:46,516 Speaker 1: brains simply don't have the capacity to accurately decide whether 185 00:10:46,596 --> 00:10:50,676 Speaker 1: a Ventisoi latte with caramel is tastier than seventy nine, 186 00:10:51,196 --> 00:10:54,716 Speaker 1: nine hundred and ninety nine other options, at least not 187 00:10:54,836 --> 00:10:57,556 Speaker 1: in real time. So we just filter most of the 188 00:10:57,596 --> 00:11:00,836 Speaker 1: other options out. But all that filtering still comes at 189 00:11:00,836 --> 00:11:04,476 Speaker 1: a serious cost to our well being. Just seeing all 190 00:11:04,516 --> 00:11:08,876 Speaker 1: those choices above the counter is cognitively draining, so draining 191 00:11:09,156 --> 00:11:12,196 Speaker 1: that it leads to worse decisions later on, a phenomenon 192 00:11:12,236 --> 00:11:16,836 Speaker 1: that behavioral scientists call decision fatigue. We all suffer from 193 00:11:16,836 --> 00:11:19,516 Speaker 1: this phenomenon to a certain degree, but only some of 194 00:11:19,596 --> 00:11:23,396 Speaker 1: us realize it. Take Barack Obama, for example, he clearly 195 00:11:23,436 --> 00:11:23,796 Speaker 1: got it. 196 00:11:23,996 --> 00:11:25,676 Speaker 2: I don't know if you've noticed that he always wore 197 00:11:25,676 --> 00:11:28,756 Speaker 2: a white shirt and he kind of cycled through his suits. 198 00:11:28,996 --> 00:11:32,156 Speaker 1: When asked about his repetitive wardrobe, the President summed up 199 00:11:32,196 --> 00:11:34,236 Speaker 1: decision fatigue perfectly. 200 00:11:34,196 --> 00:11:37,516 Speaker 2: And Obama said, have you got any idea how many 201 00:11:37,556 --> 00:11:39,916 Speaker 2: decisions I have to make in a day? You think 202 00:11:39,956 --> 00:11:43,596 Speaker 2: I want to spend time deciding what to wear? Forget 203 00:11:43,636 --> 00:11:45,916 Speaker 2: the important stuff like whether it wear a blue suit 204 00:11:45,996 --> 00:11:48,076 Speaker 2: or a gray suit, and worry about the trivial things 205 00:11:48,156 --> 00:11:49,916 Speaker 2: like making sure everyone has healthcare. 206 00:11:50,236 --> 00:11:53,236 Speaker 1: Obama is right about this. We only have a certain 207 00:11:53,276 --> 00:11:56,156 Speaker 1: amount of mental effort to put towards the hard decisions. 208 00:11:56,956 --> 00:11:59,676 Speaker 1: If we waste that effort on, say, ordering coffee or 209 00:11:59,676 --> 00:12:02,636 Speaker 1: picking out a tie, we won't have the mental warwithal 210 00:12:02,716 --> 00:12:04,396 Speaker 1: needed for the important choices. 211 00:12:04,916 --> 00:12:06,876 Speaker 2: There's a study that shows that when you have people 212 00:12:06,916 --> 00:12:11,676 Speaker 2: make a hundred hypothetic decisions, all trivial, and then you 213 00:12:11,756 --> 00:12:15,556 Speaker 2: give them a task that challenges their self control, they 214 00:12:15,596 --> 00:12:21,916 Speaker 2: give up easily. So choosing is exhausting, even when it's 215 00:12:21,916 --> 00:12:24,996 Speaker 2: about trivial stuff. It just wears you out. 216 00:12:25,916 --> 00:12:28,836 Speaker 1: But it gets worse because it turns out all those 217 00:12:28,876 --> 00:12:32,676 Speaker 1: decidedly non trivial choices in life they're also set up 218 00:12:32,676 --> 00:12:36,036 Speaker 1: in ways that overload us. We're given too many options 219 00:12:36,076 --> 00:12:37,356 Speaker 1: there as well. 220 00:12:37,396 --> 00:12:40,316 Speaker 2: To raise the stakes. The same thing happens with four 221 00:12:40,316 --> 00:12:44,036 Speaker 2: to oh one K retirement participation, and they found that 222 00:12:44,076 --> 00:12:47,356 Speaker 2: the more options you offered, the less likely people were 223 00:12:47,396 --> 00:12:50,356 Speaker 2: to choose any You lost about two percent for every 224 00:12:50,436 --> 00:12:54,676 Speaker 2: ten options, and in many cases, workers were passing up 225 00:12:54,716 --> 00:12:57,796 Speaker 2: matching money from the employer by not signing up so 226 00:12:57,916 --> 00:13:00,916 Speaker 2: the single worst thing they could do was choose none 227 00:13:00,956 --> 00:13:01,556 Speaker 2: of the above. 228 00:13:01,956 --> 00:13:05,196 Speaker 1: When people are faced with too many retirement plans, they 229 00:13:05,196 --> 00:13:07,316 Speaker 1: don't know how to make the decision, and so they 230 00:13:07,316 --> 00:13:07,956 Speaker 1: put it off. 231 00:13:08,316 --> 00:13:11,076 Speaker 2: There had to be a decision about which fund. I 232 00:13:11,116 --> 00:13:13,876 Speaker 2: don't know how to make that decision. I'll decide tomorrow. 233 00:13:14,236 --> 00:13:17,276 Speaker 2: But tomorrow isn't any different from today. So it just 234 00:13:17,396 --> 00:13:22,156 Speaker 2: keeps getting postponed and postponed. And I'm sure that everyone 235 00:13:22,236 --> 00:13:25,236 Speaker 2: thought they were doing employees a favor by offering all 236 00:13:25,276 --> 00:13:27,836 Speaker 2: these options. We'll just lay them all out there and 237 00:13:27,876 --> 00:13:31,716 Speaker 2: you can get exactly the set of investments that you want. 238 00:13:32,476 --> 00:13:35,956 Speaker 2: What a gift, Well, no, a curse, actually. 239 00:13:36,036 --> 00:13:39,476 Speaker 1: So why do companies keep cursing us like this, especially 240 00:13:39,476 --> 00:13:42,556 Speaker 1: when people would buy more things if there were fewer choices. 241 00:13:43,036 --> 00:13:45,876 Speaker 2: There's a reason for this. I think somebody walks into 242 00:13:45,876 --> 00:13:49,196 Speaker 2: your store and says, do you have Royal Crown cola? 243 00:13:49,676 --> 00:13:52,556 Speaker 2: You just have coc and pepsi, And so this person 244 00:13:52,636 --> 00:13:56,076 Speaker 2: walks out empty handed. Well, that's a smack in your face. 245 00:13:56,196 --> 00:13:58,836 Speaker 2: That's a sale you would have made if only you'd 246 00:13:58,876 --> 00:14:02,516 Speaker 2: had Royal Crown cola. Someone else comes into a store 247 00:14:02,596 --> 00:14:06,076 Speaker 2: and buys five dollars worth of stuff instead of fifteen dollars. 248 00:14:06,516 --> 00:14:10,436 Speaker 2: Because you've tortured them with so many options invisible to you. 249 00:14:10,436 --> 00:14:13,516 Speaker 2: You don't know the price you're paying by making it 250 00:14:13,556 --> 00:14:15,236 Speaker 2: more complicated than it needs to be. 251 00:14:15,716 --> 00:14:17,476 Speaker 1: So the crazy thing with the choice over the EAD 252 00:14:17,596 --> 00:14:19,796 Speaker 1: is that I know this work like a senior Ted 253 00:14:19,836 --> 00:14:22,436 Speaker 1: talk read your book, But even I, you know, would 254 00:14:22,476 --> 00:14:25,516 Speaker 1: I rather have a Netflix with ten films or ten 255 00:14:25,556 --> 00:14:28,236 Speaker 1: million films? I still have the intuition that I want 256 00:14:28,276 --> 00:14:28,836 Speaker 1: more choice. 257 00:14:28,956 --> 00:14:30,116 Speaker 2: I know everybody does. 258 00:14:32,916 --> 00:14:35,396 Speaker 1: When Barry lectures about this work, he gets a lot 259 00:14:35,436 --> 00:14:37,876 Speaker 1: of pushback, especially from his students. 260 00:14:38,396 --> 00:14:41,796 Speaker 2: I can see they're kind of smirking, and I think 261 00:14:41,876 --> 00:14:45,236 Speaker 2: that what they think is he's old, he doesn't know 262 00:14:45,276 --> 00:14:48,716 Speaker 2: how to take advantage of what the modern world offers. 263 00:14:48,956 --> 00:14:51,716 Speaker 2: And sometimes one of them will actually have the nerve 264 00:14:52,196 --> 00:14:56,356 Speaker 2: to say that, And when they do, I'm delighted because 265 00:14:56,436 --> 00:14:59,116 Speaker 2: I say, you know, I think that's really what it is. 266 00:14:59,596 --> 00:15:02,596 Speaker 2: That must explain why it is that eighty five percent 267 00:15:02,636 --> 00:15:05,596 Speaker 2: of you are clinically depressed and ninety percent of you 268 00:15:05,676 --> 00:15:08,276 Speaker 2: are going to see a shrink because you handle this 269 00:15:08,436 --> 00:15:10,716 Speaker 2: all oh well. 270 00:15:10,916 --> 00:15:13,756 Speaker 1: Choosing between jams is a pain, and picking a good 271 00:15:13,756 --> 00:15:16,556 Speaker 1: four oh one K plan can have big financial consequences. 272 00:15:17,196 --> 00:15:19,756 Speaker 1: When I first started thinking about this episode, I was 273 00:15:19,796 --> 00:15:22,316 Speaker 1: focused on these kinds of decisions, ones that are having 274 00:15:22,316 --> 00:15:24,716 Speaker 1: a huge impact on our well being but are largely 275 00:15:24,756 --> 00:15:28,596 Speaker 1: run of the mill. Personal preference is stuff cases where 276 00:15:28,636 --> 00:15:31,916 Speaker 1: there's no real right decision to be made. But as 277 00:15:31,956 --> 00:15:34,316 Speaker 1: I read more and more of the work on Choice Overload, 278 00:15:34,876 --> 00:15:37,396 Speaker 1: I realize that we're now being asked to make decisions 279 00:15:37,396 --> 00:15:40,796 Speaker 1: and domains that go way beyond shopping. The book also 280 00:15:40,836 --> 00:15:44,996 Speaker 1: stops with us for decisions that can have critical moral consequences, 281 00:15:45,716 --> 00:15:48,236 Speaker 1: ones that literally involve life and death. 282 00:15:48,636 --> 00:15:51,076 Speaker 5: Maybe you got admitted to the hospital because you felt 283 00:15:51,116 --> 00:15:53,556 Speaker 5: like you felt terrible for a while, and then they 284 00:15:53,596 --> 00:15:56,956 Speaker 5: told you had leukemia and that you could have a 285 00:15:56,996 --> 00:16:00,516 Speaker 5: really aggressive chemotherapy that might kill you and might save 286 00:16:00,516 --> 00:16:04,996 Speaker 5: your life, or a gentler chemotherapy that's going to slow 287 00:16:05,036 --> 00:16:08,636 Speaker 5: down this leukemia but never cure you of it. And 288 00:16:08,876 --> 00:16:11,196 Speaker 5: you have to figure out that night which type of 289 00:16:11,276 --> 00:16:15,116 Speaker 5: chemotherapy to start. Hard to think of a harder decision 290 00:16:15,156 --> 00:16:15,436 Speaker 5: to make. 291 00:16:16,276 --> 00:16:35,396 Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab will be right back. It was spring 292 00:16:35,516 --> 00:16:37,956 Speaker 1: and twenty one year old Karen and Quinlan had just 293 00:16:38,036 --> 00:16:40,996 Speaker 1: moved away from home. For the last few days, she'd 294 00:16:41,036 --> 00:16:43,276 Speaker 1: been on a crash diet, hoping to fit into a 295 00:16:43,316 --> 00:16:45,956 Speaker 1: new dress for an upcoming party. After a couple of 296 00:16:45,996 --> 00:16:49,596 Speaker 1: drinks and some valium, Karen felt dizzy, so her friends 297 00:16:49,676 --> 00:16:52,276 Speaker 1: took her home and put her to bed. But then 298 00:16:53,036 --> 00:16:56,916 Speaker 1: Karen stopped breathing in a few minutes. It took her 299 00:16:56,916 --> 00:17:01,156 Speaker 1: housemates to notice her brain suffered huge and irreparable damage. 300 00:17:01,716 --> 00:17:04,876 Speaker 1: Karen wasn't dead, there were tiny signs of brain activity, 301 00:17:05,316 --> 00:17:07,756 Speaker 1: but her doctors were gloomy about the prospect that she 302 00:17:07,756 --> 00:17:13,036 Speaker 1: would ever recover. Karen's play dramatically pitted her parents, Joseph 303 00:17:13,076 --> 00:17:16,196 Speaker 1: and Julia Quinlan, against the medical profession in a way 304 00:17:16,436 --> 00:17:21,156 Speaker 1: never seen before. Karen's parents were devout Catholics. They thought 305 00:17:21,196 --> 00:17:23,836 Speaker 1: the machine that was helping her to breathe should be shut. 306 00:17:23,636 --> 00:17:28,956 Speaker 5: Off the family. The parents decided it was morally acceptable. 307 00:17:28,996 --> 00:17:31,116 Speaker 5: In fact, the best thing to do would be to 308 00:17:31,236 --> 00:17:35,316 Speaker 5: take the ventilator away, let their daughter die so she 309 00:17:35,356 --> 00:17:36,396 Speaker 5: could be with God. 310 00:17:36,516 --> 00:17:39,716 Speaker 1: This is Peter Yuble, a physician and behavioral scientist at 311 00:17:39,796 --> 00:17:41,196 Speaker 1: Duke University. 312 00:17:40,996 --> 00:17:45,436 Speaker 5: And the doctors refused. They said that would be killing her, 313 00:17:45,476 --> 00:17:47,436 Speaker 5: and they didn't do that, and it wasn't the parent's 314 00:17:47,436 --> 00:17:48,116 Speaker 5: decision to make. 315 00:17:48,476 --> 00:17:51,156 Speaker 1: The arguments soon made it to court, where the judge 316 00:17:51,236 --> 00:17:53,636 Speaker 1: ruled that the treating physician had to make the call. 317 00:17:54,356 --> 00:17:57,676 Speaker 1: Legally speaking, the Quinlans were not allowed to govern what 318 00:17:57,796 --> 00:18:01,156 Speaker 1: treatment their daughter received, but the couple didn't give up. 319 00:18:01,556 --> 00:18:02,476 Speaker 1: They soon appealed. 320 00:18:02,876 --> 00:18:06,396 Speaker 5: The New Jersey State Supreme Court said, yeah, no, the 321 00:18:06,436 --> 00:18:09,036 Speaker 5: parents do have the right here. It is their daughter, 322 00:18:09,556 --> 00:18:13,036 Speaker 5: and it's not a medical decision here, it's a moral decision, 323 00:18:13,356 --> 00:18:15,316 Speaker 5: and the doctors aren't the ones to decide what's right 324 00:18:15,356 --> 00:18:16,196 Speaker 5: or wrong in that case. 325 00:18:16,476 --> 00:18:19,436 Speaker 1: Peter thinks this was a pivotal moment in a wider 326 00:18:19,556 --> 00:18:23,076 Speaker 1: generational movement demanding more choice in our lives. 327 00:18:23,396 --> 00:18:25,316 Speaker 5: Around the same time, this is around the seventies, you're 328 00:18:25,316 --> 00:18:28,316 Speaker 5: seeing a lot of people in the United States in particular, 329 00:18:28,836 --> 00:18:30,636 Speaker 5: who are kind of standing up to the power, the 330 00:18:30,636 --> 00:18:32,396 Speaker 5: power that's got people in a war they don't want 331 00:18:32,396 --> 00:18:34,236 Speaker 5: to be in, that's trying to keep people from voting 332 00:18:34,316 --> 00:18:37,236 Speaker 5: that want to vote, And I think the patient empowerment 333 00:18:37,276 --> 00:18:40,956 Speaker 5: movement kind of fit into that narrative, and you saw 334 00:18:41,276 --> 00:18:47,276 Speaker 5: people not only lawyers, but theologians and philosophers and enlightened physicians, 335 00:18:47,276 --> 00:18:49,636 Speaker 5: saying we need to give patients a bigger role in 336 00:18:49,676 --> 00:18:52,796 Speaker 5: their decisions. It's their bodies, after all, they have a 337 00:18:52,876 --> 00:18:55,076 Speaker 5: right to know what we're doing to them and why. 338 00:18:55,436 --> 00:18:58,396 Speaker 1: But this level of patient choice in medicine was totally 339 00:18:58,436 --> 00:19:02,116 Speaker 1: new for all of human history. Before this, it was 340 00:19:02,396 --> 00:19:03,596 Speaker 1: doctor knows best. 341 00:19:04,036 --> 00:19:06,596 Speaker 5: You as a patient, just trusted this person to tell 342 00:19:06,596 --> 00:19:09,116 Speaker 5: you what to do. Going back to the time of hippocrity, 343 00:19:09,156 --> 00:19:12,556 Speaker 5: these physicians were told not to burden people with knowledge 344 00:19:12,596 --> 00:19:17,036 Speaker 5: that wouldn't help them, and he typically he might or 345 00:19:17,116 --> 00:19:19,356 Speaker 5: might not tell you what's even wrong with you. Maybe 346 00:19:19,436 --> 00:19:21,236 Speaker 5: you just were told you had a shadow on your 347 00:19:21,356 --> 00:19:22,996 Speaker 5: X ray, but it was really a cancer. That doctor 348 00:19:23,076 --> 00:19:24,316 Speaker 5: knew it but didn't want to worry you. 349 00:19:24,676 --> 00:19:28,836 Speaker 1: In his work, Peter records real interactions between physicians and patients, 350 00:19:29,516 --> 00:19:32,076 Speaker 1: playing them back. It's clear to Peter that things have 351 00:19:32,156 --> 00:19:32,876 Speaker 1: changed a lot. 352 00:19:33,516 --> 00:19:36,516 Speaker 5: Oh now it's a mess. It's pretty common to grown 353 00:19:36,516 --> 00:19:38,556 Speaker 5: into a patient and says, well, okay, doctor, what should 354 00:19:38,556 --> 00:19:41,356 Speaker 5: I do? And then the doctor says, well, it's for 355 00:19:41,396 --> 00:19:43,116 Speaker 5: you to decide. I can't tell you what to do. 356 00:19:43,196 --> 00:19:47,756 Speaker 5: It's your choice that can drive patients crazy. I don't 357 00:19:47,796 --> 00:19:50,756 Speaker 5: think doctors know what we're supposed to do anymore. 358 00:19:51,476 --> 00:19:54,516 Speaker 1: It's gone from doctor knows best to patient knows best. 359 00:19:55,276 --> 00:19:59,116 Speaker 1: But do patients really know best? After all, they don't 360 00:19:59,156 --> 00:20:02,916 Speaker 1: have decades of medical training, constant refresher courses, and new 361 00:20:02,956 --> 00:20:06,796 Speaker 1: medical journals dropping on their doorstep every month. The modern 362 00:20:06,836 --> 00:20:09,996 Speaker 1: revolution of patient choice has given the decision power to 363 00:20:10,076 --> 00:20:13,196 Speaker 1: people who don't often have the information they need, and 364 00:20:13,276 --> 00:20:16,396 Speaker 1: Peter's research shows that doctors try to help, but they 365 00:20:16,436 --> 00:20:17,356 Speaker 1: often do it badly. 366 00:20:17,796 --> 00:20:21,076 Speaker 5: Doctors, they know one thing, we need to inform the 367 00:20:21,116 --> 00:20:23,236 Speaker 5: hell out of this patient. That's the one thing that 368 00:20:23,316 --> 00:20:27,316 Speaker 5: doctors have pretty universally taken as the lesson from this 369 00:20:27,516 --> 00:20:31,916 Speaker 5: patient empowerment revolution of the seventies and eighties. Patients deserve information, 370 00:20:32,516 --> 00:20:34,596 Speaker 5: Rarely do they know the best way to give them 371 00:20:34,596 --> 00:20:37,796 Speaker 5: that information, how much to give them, And even more 372 00:20:37,876 --> 00:20:41,036 Speaker 5: rarely do they assess patient understanding in a really good 373 00:20:41,076 --> 00:20:43,636 Speaker 5: way before they then work to make a decision with 374 00:20:43,676 --> 00:20:44,036 Speaker 5: the patient. 375 00:20:44,196 --> 00:20:46,556 Speaker 1: So we have more information, maybe even more options on 376 00:20:46,596 --> 00:20:48,636 Speaker 1: the table, but it's not clear that patients know how 377 00:20:48,636 --> 00:20:50,116 Speaker 1: to make the best choice that's. 378 00:20:49,956 --> 00:20:52,596 Speaker 5: Right, or that doctors know how to partner with them 379 00:20:52,636 --> 00:20:53,516 Speaker 5: to make those choices. 380 00:20:54,116 --> 00:20:57,116 Speaker 1: Peter is no stranger to these kinds of awful situations. 381 00:20:57,756 --> 00:21:00,156 Speaker 1: In fact, he's faced them in his own family. 382 00:21:00,596 --> 00:21:03,676 Speaker 5: My wife had early stage breast cancer, diagnosed about seven 383 00:21:03,756 --> 00:21:05,996 Speaker 5: years ago. She was in her forties. Still, that's a 384 00:21:05,996 --> 00:21:08,156 Speaker 5: bad aged. Well, there's no good age to be diagnosed 385 00:21:08,156 --> 00:21:10,796 Speaker 5: with breast cancer, but it's especially serious when you're younger 386 00:21:10,876 --> 00:21:11,156 Speaker 5: like that. 387 00:21:11,596 --> 00:21:14,916 Speaker 1: Peter's wife was offered many choices about her treatment, the 388 00:21:14,956 --> 00:21:17,716 Speaker 1: first being whether she wanted her whole breast removed or 389 00:21:17,796 --> 00:21:21,476 Speaker 1: just the tumor. Being a physician, Peter dug into the 390 00:21:21,556 --> 00:21:24,756 Speaker 1: data on all of these options. To his horror, he 391 00:21:24,836 --> 00:21:27,276 Speaker 1: found out the way the choices were being framed didn't 392 00:21:27,276 --> 00:21:30,516 Speaker 1: accurately reflect the risks or rewards of each of the options. 393 00:21:31,436 --> 00:21:34,956 Speaker 1: Studying the figures, Peter found that extending his wife's treatment 394 00:21:34,996 --> 00:21:37,756 Speaker 1: by a week only slightly decreased the chance of her 395 00:21:37,756 --> 00:21:41,356 Speaker 1: tumor returning, but massively increased the chances of his wife's 396 00:21:41,356 --> 00:21:44,196 Speaker 1: suffering painful and disfiguring side effects. 397 00:21:44,676 --> 00:21:47,116 Speaker 5: And that to me feels like a choice that a 398 00:21:47,556 --> 00:21:50,956 Speaker 5: patient ought to be able to make. And yet almost 399 00:21:51,036 --> 00:21:53,316 Speaker 5: any woman would have walked into that situation and just 400 00:21:53,316 --> 00:21:55,036 Speaker 5: be told that she had a six week of treatment 401 00:21:55,076 --> 00:21:57,756 Speaker 5: coming and not told what the pros and cons of 402 00:21:57,756 --> 00:21:58,396 Speaker 5: that choice are. 403 00:21:59,276 --> 00:22:01,196 Speaker 1: So, while the doctors were placing the weight of the 404 00:22:01,236 --> 00:22:04,396 Speaker 1: decision making onto the couple's shoulders, they seemed to have 405 00:22:04,436 --> 00:22:06,396 Speaker 1: no system in place to give Peter and his wife 406 00:22:06,476 --> 00:22:09,396 Speaker 1: the information they needed to make an informed choice. 407 00:22:09,676 --> 00:22:13,756 Speaker 5: That either means they overinform you often about things irrelevant 408 00:22:13,756 --> 00:22:15,836 Speaker 5: to the decision to where you're so confused you don't 409 00:22:15,836 --> 00:22:18,756 Speaker 5: know what to do, or they selectively inform you thinking 410 00:22:18,796 --> 00:22:20,836 Speaker 5: they're telling you what you need to know, and maybe 411 00:22:20,836 --> 00:22:23,916 Speaker 5: they're making the wrong assumption. It's a really tough place 412 00:22:23,956 --> 00:22:25,116 Speaker 5: to make a decision. 413 00:22:25,196 --> 00:22:28,596 Speaker 1: But it got worse. Having made a series of choices, 414 00:22:28,796 --> 00:22:32,356 Speaker 1: Peter's wife finally had an operation, a lumpectomy to remove 415 00:22:32,396 --> 00:22:35,996 Speaker 1: the cancer. As part of the procedure, the team inspected 416 00:22:36,036 --> 00:22:38,916 Speaker 1: nearby tissue to see if her disease had spread. 417 00:22:38,796 --> 00:22:41,636 Speaker 5: And they found one lymphote that was a centimeter large 418 00:22:41,676 --> 00:22:46,436 Speaker 5: that was basically tumor. And the surgeon calls me up. 419 00:22:46,516 --> 00:22:49,316 Speaker 5: My wife is still under anesthesia. They're part way through 420 00:22:49,316 --> 00:22:51,756 Speaker 5: the operation, and so he poses me, how many of 421 00:22:51,756 --> 00:22:53,756 Speaker 5: these lymphotes you want me to go after? And then 422 00:22:53,796 --> 00:22:57,156 Speaker 5: I'm just like, Okay, so my wife's under anesthesia. I 423 00:22:57,196 --> 00:22:59,196 Speaker 5: have to decide how many of our lymphnotes remove, and 424 00:22:59,516 --> 00:23:04,116 Speaker 5: one possibility is I say, don't remove anymore, and then 425 00:23:04,276 --> 00:23:06,836 Speaker 5: she wakes up and then decides, boy, I wish we'd 426 00:23:06,836 --> 00:23:08,396 Speaker 5: hadn't removed, and do they have to go back into 427 00:23:08,396 --> 00:23:11,676 Speaker 5: a second surger or I tay remove them, and then 428 00:23:11,676 --> 00:23:13,796 Speaker 5: she's going to wake up later and say you had 429 00:23:13,796 --> 00:23:15,436 Speaker 5: them remove all those lymph nodes and I'm going to 430 00:23:15,476 --> 00:23:17,876 Speaker 5: have all that swelling. That was my choice. 431 00:23:18,236 --> 00:23:21,116 Speaker 1: The surreal exchange went back and forth with a heavy 432 00:23:21,156 --> 00:23:24,156 Speaker 1: heart and fearing the awful side effects. Peter said, the 433 00:23:24,236 --> 00:23:25,596 Speaker 1: lymph nodes should come out. 434 00:23:26,036 --> 00:23:29,036 Speaker 5: How did the doctor not anticipate that this was a 435 00:23:29,076 --> 00:23:32,276 Speaker 5: possible branch point? How did that surgeon not talk to 436 00:23:32,356 --> 00:23:34,996 Speaker 5: both of us beforehand? And now, look, there's a possibility. 437 00:23:35,036 --> 00:23:37,116 Speaker 5: You know they always go in and look at lymph nodes. 438 00:23:37,356 --> 00:23:39,156 Speaker 5: Why didn't he tell us, you know, we're going to 439 00:23:39,196 --> 00:23:40,476 Speaker 5: have to figure out what to do if any of 440 00:23:40,476 --> 00:23:41,956 Speaker 5: them show cancer in them, and. 441 00:23:41,876 --> 00:23:43,636 Speaker 1: You face this burden. I mean, it would be awful 442 00:23:43,636 --> 00:23:45,316 Speaker 1: for your wife to face this burden because it's a 443 00:23:45,316 --> 00:23:47,036 Speaker 1: hard choice. But it's not your body. 444 00:23:47,076 --> 00:23:48,116 Speaker 2: It's her body that's. 445 00:23:48,036 --> 00:23:51,476 Speaker 5: Right, and to her credit, she didn't ever make me 446 00:23:51,516 --> 00:23:53,716 Speaker 5: feel like it made the wrong choice. But it's to 447 00:23:53,756 --> 00:23:57,476 Speaker 5: never a position I should have been put in. Yeah, yeah, 448 00:23:57,596 --> 00:23:58,396 Speaker 5: very preventable. 449 00:24:00,836 --> 00:24:03,916 Speaker 1: Working on this episode, I've now started noticing all the 450 00:24:03,956 --> 00:24:07,836 Speaker 1: decisions I'm faced with on a daily basis. Luckily I 451 00:24:07,836 --> 00:24:10,356 Speaker 1: haven't recently faced any as hard as Peter and his 452 00:24:10,396 --> 00:24:12,916 Speaker 1: wife had to deal with. But it still feels like 453 00:24:12,956 --> 00:24:16,716 Speaker 1: there's no escape from all these decisions and that nagging 454 00:24:16,796 --> 00:24:19,596 Speaker 1: feeling that I'm making the wrong choices all the time. 455 00:24:20,316 --> 00:24:22,396 Speaker 1: And so I started to look for some role models, 456 00:24:22,996 --> 00:24:25,196 Speaker 1: people who had found a way out of the trap 457 00:24:25,436 --> 00:24:26,596 Speaker 1: of too much choice. 458 00:24:27,196 --> 00:24:29,716 Speaker 3: A typical day for me would involve, you know, just 459 00:24:30,316 --> 00:24:34,356 Speaker 3: so many questions. In each answer to those questions was 460 00:24:34,436 --> 00:24:35,796 Speaker 3: a decision that I was making. 461 00:24:36,756 --> 00:24:39,596 Speaker 1: This is writer and blogger Courtney Carver. Back in two 462 00:24:39,636 --> 00:24:43,236 Speaker 1: thousand and six, she received some life shattering news, and 463 00:24:43,276 --> 00:24:46,196 Speaker 1: she reacted in exactly the way that the science of 464 00:24:46,196 --> 00:24:50,916 Speaker 1: psychology recommends. She stopped treating lots of choices as a 465 00:24:50,916 --> 00:24:51,356 Speaker 1: good thing. 466 00:24:52,036 --> 00:24:54,476 Speaker 3: Let's get rid of these decisions that we make every 467 00:24:54,516 --> 00:24:56,356 Speaker 3: day that don't have a whole lot of impact on 468 00:24:56,396 --> 00:24:56,996 Speaker 3: our lives. 469 00:24:57,636 --> 00:24:59,436 Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab will be right back. 470 00:25:07,436 --> 00:25:11,276 Speaker 5: This is clearly a very very popular session, so once again, 471 00:25:11,716 --> 00:25:14,876 Speaker 5: while you are welcome to stand along the sides of. 472 00:25:14,836 --> 00:25:16,476 Speaker 3: The room and then back, please know the. 473 00:25:16,636 --> 00:25:18,876 Speaker 1: I met Courtney Carver last winter when we did a 474 00:25:18,876 --> 00:25:22,836 Speaker 1: panel discussion together at the Massachusetts Conference for Women. The 475 00:25:22,876 --> 00:25:25,716 Speaker 1: main room was completely packed. If you also want to be, 476 00:25:25,796 --> 00:25:27,716 Speaker 1: as Hamilton the musical would say, in the room where 477 00:25:27,716 --> 00:25:30,836 Speaker 1: it happened, we certainly welcome you to come in and 478 00:25:30,836 --> 00:25:34,596 Speaker 1: cozy up. The clamor for seats didn't surprise me. The 479 00:25:34,636 --> 00:25:37,076 Speaker 1: topic we were set to discuss was burnout and how 480 00:25:37,076 --> 00:25:37,676 Speaker 1: to avoid it. 481 00:25:38,276 --> 00:25:41,076 Speaker 3: All right, clearly, we have nothing to talk about here right. 482 00:25:41,796 --> 00:25:45,036 Speaker 3: Burnout is not a common problem for any of us, 483 00:25:45,156 --> 00:25:47,676 Speaker 3: as I can see by the packed as we have here. 484 00:25:48,356 --> 00:25:51,156 Speaker 1: The panel was promoting a really positive goal, but it 485 00:25:51,236 --> 00:25:53,436 Speaker 1: centered on an idea that all of us have to 486 00:25:53,476 --> 00:25:55,716 Speaker 1: say no a little bit more for the sake of 487 00:25:55,716 --> 00:25:58,876 Speaker 1: our happiness. And Courtney Carver is a bit of a 488 00:25:58,956 --> 00:26:00,676 Speaker 1: rock star in the saying no movement. 489 00:26:01,156 --> 00:26:02,956 Speaker 3: Even on a good day, most of us have more 490 00:26:02,996 --> 00:26:05,716 Speaker 3: decisions than we want to deal with to make, like 491 00:26:05,916 --> 00:26:07,996 Speaker 3: what we're going to wear in the morning. That for 492 00:26:08,156 --> 00:26:11,076 Speaker 3: sure always seemed to overwhelm. 493 00:26:10,596 --> 00:26:14,396 Speaker 1: Me as an advertising exec. Having lots of fashion choices 494 00:26:14,476 --> 00:26:17,356 Speaker 1: was important to Courtney, but choosing something cool to wear 495 00:26:17,436 --> 00:26:21,476 Speaker 1: every morning was exhausting. So she made a radical decision. 496 00:26:22,036 --> 00:26:25,276 Speaker 3: I had been simplifying other areas of my life for years, 497 00:26:25,476 --> 00:26:29,876 Speaker 3: but I never considered the closet or shopping because I 498 00:26:29,916 --> 00:26:32,636 Speaker 3: just thought that was an essential part of my life. 499 00:26:32,836 --> 00:26:35,956 Speaker 3: But the simpler the rest of my life got, the 500 00:26:35,996 --> 00:26:39,116 Speaker 3: more chaotic my closet felt, and I thought, I wonder 501 00:26:39,156 --> 00:26:41,956 Speaker 3: what it would be like to dress with less. 502 00:26:42,556 --> 00:26:46,396 Speaker 1: She decided to reduce her wardrobe choices, just like Obama did. 503 00:26:46,676 --> 00:26:50,716 Speaker 3: And so I created a challenge, a minimalist fashion challenge 504 00:26:51,076 --> 00:26:54,316 Speaker 3: that I named Project three thirty three, where I would 505 00:26:54,436 --> 00:27:01,116 Speaker 3: dress with thirty three items for three months, including clothes, jewelry, accessories, 506 00:27:01,156 --> 00:27:05,476 Speaker 3: and shoes, not counting underwear sleep wear like at home 507 00:27:05,556 --> 00:27:08,476 Speaker 3: lounge wear or workout clothes. I didn't get rid of 508 00:27:08,516 --> 00:27:12,356 Speaker 3: everything right away. I just boxed it up and got 509 00:27:12,356 --> 00:27:15,356 Speaker 3: it out of sight for three months. I just thought 510 00:27:15,356 --> 00:27:17,236 Speaker 3: there might be a lot to learn from that, And 511 00:27:17,316 --> 00:27:18,116 Speaker 3: so what did you learn? 512 00:27:18,436 --> 00:27:19,196 Speaker 1: Well? So much. 513 00:27:19,516 --> 00:27:22,836 Speaker 3: The first thing I learned is that my clothes and 514 00:27:22,916 --> 00:27:27,276 Speaker 3: my closet was stressful, and that it sent me into 515 00:27:27,276 --> 00:27:30,396 Speaker 3: the day feeling a bit frazzled, And it was just 516 00:27:30,756 --> 00:27:34,316 Speaker 3: so relieving for me. I felt so good that I 517 00:27:34,356 --> 00:27:38,156 Speaker 3: didn't have to look at all of my bad purchase decisions, 518 00:27:38,316 --> 00:27:40,956 Speaker 3: the clothes that didn't fit me, the clothes I didn't 519 00:27:41,036 --> 00:27:45,916 Speaker 3: enjoy or like, the clothes with tags still hanging. You know, 520 00:27:45,916 --> 00:27:48,076 Speaker 3: I would buy something thinking it was such a great deal, 521 00:27:48,076 --> 00:27:50,636 Speaker 3: and then I would never even cut the tags off 522 00:27:50,916 --> 00:27:51,476 Speaker 3: and wear it. 523 00:27:52,156 --> 00:27:55,116 Speaker 1: But not everyone takes to project three thirty three straight away. 524 00:27:55,916 --> 00:27:58,236 Speaker 1: Some people are even horrified by the idea. 525 00:27:58,476 --> 00:28:04,396 Speaker 3: I definitely get some pushback from people wondering or challenging. 526 00:28:04,796 --> 00:28:09,196 Speaker 3: You know, isn't that so boring, that's so uncreative. I 527 00:28:09,196 --> 00:28:13,876 Speaker 3: could never do that. I remember the first day before 528 00:28:13,916 --> 00:28:16,676 Speaker 3: I opened my closet thinking I'm not going to have 529 00:28:16,836 --> 00:28:19,716 Speaker 3: enough people are going to notice. But I remember when 530 00:28:19,716 --> 00:28:23,956 Speaker 3: I opened the closet, all I felt was calm and 531 00:28:24,036 --> 00:28:27,876 Speaker 3: peace and here are my choices. You know, I don't 532 00:28:27,876 --> 00:28:32,076 Speaker 3: have to express my creativity by what I wear. It 533 00:28:32,156 --> 00:28:34,596 Speaker 3: wasn't anything I was ever really excited about. It was 534 00:28:34,636 --> 00:28:37,076 Speaker 3: something that I felt compelled to do to fit in 535 00:28:37,916 --> 00:28:39,876 Speaker 3: and in reality, I didn't have to work as hard 536 00:28:39,916 --> 00:28:40,556 Speaker 3: as I did. 537 00:28:41,356 --> 00:28:44,076 Speaker 1: Courtney's realization that she was a slave to her extensive 538 00:28:44,076 --> 00:28:46,996 Speaker 1: wardrobe strikes a chord with many other women, and her 539 00:28:47,036 --> 00:28:49,316 Speaker 1: project three thirty three idea is catching on. 540 00:28:49,996 --> 00:28:52,596 Speaker 3: I don't know officially how many people have done it, 541 00:28:52,636 --> 00:28:55,676 Speaker 3: but I suspect it's in the tens of thousands. And 542 00:28:56,196 --> 00:28:59,876 Speaker 3: it's so wonderful to see people sharing a lot of 543 00:28:59,876 --> 00:29:04,076 Speaker 3: the same benefits in terms of less stress and anxiety, 544 00:29:04,556 --> 00:29:10,556 Speaker 3: getting ready on time, more peaceful mournings, saving money, saving energy, 545 00:29:10,756 --> 00:29:14,396 Speaker 3: being more creative in other areas of their life. It's fascinating. 546 00:29:15,196 --> 00:29:18,356 Speaker 1: Courtney is a thoughtful and articulate advocate for simplifying our 547 00:29:18,436 --> 00:29:22,436 Speaker 1: daily routines, and her book, Soulful Simplicity provides a lot 548 00:29:22,476 --> 00:29:26,036 Speaker 1: of helpful advice, But it's Courtney's personal story that makes 549 00:29:26,036 --> 00:29:29,076 Speaker 1: her argument all the more compelling. Because Courtney was on 550 00:29:29,156 --> 00:29:31,836 Speaker 1: the same choice treadmill as the rest of us until 551 00:29:31,876 --> 00:29:34,716 Speaker 1: two thousand and six, when things started to really go 552 00:29:34,796 --> 00:29:35,396 Speaker 1: wrong for her. 553 00:29:35,836 --> 00:29:40,556 Speaker 3: I didn't feel well. I had vertigo and some tingling 554 00:29:40,556 --> 00:29:43,876 Speaker 3: in my face. I was very tired, extremely fatigued. 555 00:29:44,196 --> 00:29:47,236 Speaker 1: As a busy professional in mother, Courtney just assumed these 556 00:29:47,316 --> 00:29:50,316 Speaker 1: unnerving feelings were nothing more than the side effects of stress. 557 00:29:50,676 --> 00:29:53,796 Speaker 3: I was behind on a lot of work deadlines, I 558 00:29:53,836 --> 00:29:57,156 Speaker 3: was volunteering at my daughter's school, I was traveling, and 559 00:29:57,356 --> 00:29:59,956 Speaker 3: just trying to do all the things that most of 560 00:30:00,036 --> 00:30:02,596 Speaker 3: us try to fit into a normal day, and it 561 00:30:02,676 --> 00:30:03,556 Speaker 3: was overwhelming. 562 00:30:03,956 --> 00:30:06,476 Speaker 1: On top of all of this, Courtney was also in 563 00:30:06,556 --> 00:30:10,596 Speaker 1: training for a charity cycling event, fifty mile race to 564 00:30:10,636 --> 00:30:12,636 Speaker 1: support the Multiple Sclerosis Society. 565 00:30:13,076 --> 00:30:17,436 Speaker 3: My boss at the time had MS and I was 566 00:30:17,716 --> 00:30:20,836 Speaker 3: riding for him. But because I wasn't feeling well, I 567 00:30:20,956 --> 00:30:25,556 Speaker 3: was in between doctor's appointments and tests and so dizzy 568 00:30:25,596 --> 00:30:29,236 Speaker 3: that I really couldn't even ride my bike. I couldn't 569 00:30:29,236 --> 00:30:31,076 Speaker 3: even walk a straight line most of the time. 570 00:30:31,836 --> 00:30:34,796 Speaker 1: Eventually, she had to give up on the race. Her 571 00:30:34,836 --> 00:30:38,076 Speaker 1: doctors had finally figured out what was wrong MS. The 572 00:30:38,276 --> 00:30:41,476 Speaker 1: very disease that had struck her boss's nervous system was 573 00:30:41,596 --> 00:30:43,596 Speaker 1: also at the root of Courtney's symptoms too. 574 00:30:44,076 --> 00:30:47,436 Speaker 3: On top of really feeling crappy, to get this diagnosis 575 00:30:47,476 --> 00:30:51,636 Speaker 3: that was terrible. I had nothing but fear initially, and 576 00:30:51,836 --> 00:30:56,636 Speaker 3: in my case, I was diagnosed over the phone while 577 00:30:56,676 --> 00:30:59,796 Speaker 3: I was at work. I said, what's next? What should 578 00:30:59,796 --> 00:31:00,116 Speaker 3: I do. 579 00:31:00,956 --> 00:31:03,396 Speaker 1: It was just the sort of awful phone call that 580 00:31:03,516 --> 00:31:07,076 Speaker 1: Peter Euble was telling us about. Courtney was immediately asked 581 00:31:07,116 --> 00:31:09,636 Speaker 1: to make choices she was totally unprepared for. 582 00:31:09,956 --> 00:31:12,396 Speaker 3: She said, why don't you come in and pick up 583 00:31:12,436 --> 00:31:15,516 Speaker 3: some marketing kits for the drugs that are available and 584 00:31:15,516 --> 00:31:20,156 Speaker 3: pick one? Oh my gosh, and I just thought, I mean, 585 00:31:20,156 --> 00:31:22,076 Speaker 3: what's nuts? When I look back on it is I 586 00:31:22,156 --> 00:31:25,196 Speaker 3: just thought, Okay, that's what you do, So that's what 587 00:31:25,276 --> 00:31:25,596 Speaker 3: I did. 588 00:31:26,396 --> 00:31:30,116 Speaker 1: The entire situation was overwhelming, and it forced Courtney to 589 00:31:30,116 --> 00:31:32,156 Speaker 1: ask a lot of hard questions, what are. 590 00:31:32,116 --> 00:31:34,756 Speaker 3: You doing with your life? Is this how you want 591 00:31:34,796 --> 00:31:36,956 Speaker 3: to live? Are these the choices that you want to make? 592 00:31:37,756 --> 00:31:41,236 Speaker 3: I don't, by any means think that I caused this disease, 593 00:31:41,516 --> 00:31:44,316 Speaker 3: but I know that the stress in my life contributed 594 00:31:44,356 --> 00:31:50,036 Speaker 3: to exacerbations and relapses. And I started to see all 595 00:31:50,076 --> 00:31:52,556 Speaker 3: of the things that I had built my life around 596 00:31:52,636 --> 00:31:55,996 Speaker 3: and added to my life over the years that were stressful, 597 00:31:56,916 --> 00:32:00,636 Speaker 3: and so I set out to eliminate as much of 598 00:32:00,636 --> 00:32:01,916 Speaker 3: that stress as possible. 599 00:32:02,356 --> 00:32:05,596 Speaker 1: What's most fascinating is that Project three thirty three hasn't 600 00:32:05,636 --> 00:32:09,236 Speaker 1: just improved Courtney's mood. In her bank account, Courtney so 601 00:32:09,316 --> 00:32:13,156 Speaker 1: attributes reducing her choices with making her feel better physically. 602 00:32:13,556 --> 00:32:17,796 Speaker 1: Since reducing her closet choices, Courtney's MS has improved. 603 00:32:17,636 --> 00:32:21,316 Speaker 3: So now I am symptom free for the most part, 604 00:32:21,676 --> 00:32:25,476 Speaker 3: I feel better than I did even prior to my 605 00:32:25,556 --> 00:32:29,236 Speaker 3: diagnosis because I'm taking so much better care of myself. 606 00:32:29,596 --> 00:32:33,196 Speaker 1: Courtney's story isn't just about finning out her wardrobe. Courtney's 607 00:32:33,236 --> 00:32:36,036 Speaker 1: mind had lied to her for years and years, but 608 00:32:36,076 --> 00:32:38,436 Speaker 1: she woke up to it and it's made her so 609 00:32:38,596 --> 00:32:40,516 Speaker 1: much happier than she ever expected. 610 00:32:41,036 --> 00:32:45,796 Speaker 3: I think that we're conditioned to believe that more is 611 00:32:45,836 --> 00:32:48,636 Speaker 3: always the answer, and that will be happier with more. 612 00:32:49,076 --> 00:32:53,396 Speaker 3: Things will be better with more, will be more loved 613 00:32:53,476 --> 00:32:57,636 Speaker 3: if we prove ourselves more. But as it turns out, less, 614 00:32:58,156 --> 00:33:01,636 Speaker 3: at least for me, is the answer. You know, less choosing, 615 00:33:02,236 --> 00:33:10,836 Speaker 3: less doing. I'm much happier with doing less. 616 00:33:10,956 --> 00:33:13,196 Speaker 1: Making This episode has had a real impact on me. 617 00:33:14,436 --> 00:33:17,116 Speaker 1: Reducing the choice overload in our daily lives is no 618 00:33:17,196 --> 00:33:20,676 Speaker 1: easy feet, but I'm trying. I recently decided to start 619 00:33:20,676 --> 00:33:24,036 Speaker 1: my day with the exact same breakfast every morning. It's 620 00:33:24,076 --> 00:33:26,916 Speaker 1: not much, but it's one less decision to contend with 621 00:33:27,156 --> 00:33:29,276 Speaker 1: before I get to the real choices that face me 622 00:33:29,436 --> 00:33:32,196 Speaker 1: in the grind a head. So look for your own 623 00:33:32,276 --> 00:33:35,636 Speaker 1: little strategies to reduce choices and apply them whenever you can, 624 00:33:36,316 --> 00:33:39,796 Speaker 1: and steal some hints from the masters, like researcher Barry Schwartz. 625 00:33:40,396 --> 00:33:42,436 Speaker 1: He shared a great tip that I'll try next time 626 00:33:42,436 --> 00:33:43,716 Speaker 1: I sit down at a restaurant. 627 00:33:43,916 --> 00:33:46,476 Speaker 2: I don't even look at the menu. I don't care 628 00:33:46,476 --> 00:33:48,836 Speaker 2: how many options there are. I wait for everyone else 629 00:33:48,876 --> 00:33:52,556 Speaker 2: to order, and then I choose whichever of those dishes 630 00:33:52,596 --> 00:33:55,556 Speaker 2: sounds best to me. So, in effect, I'm choosing from 631 00:33:55,636 --> 00:33:58,596 Speaker 2: three or from five, and not from fifty. 632 00:33:59,676 --> 00:34:01,876 Speaker 1: And so I'll leave this episode with a final thought, 633 00:34:02,316 --> 00:34:04,716 Speaker 1: which is, don't get bogged down by all the big 634 00:34:04,756 --> 00:34:08,316 Speaker 1: menus in life. Ask yourself, how can I cut down 635 00:34:08,316 --> 00:34:11,316 Speaker 1: on some of the decisions in my own life? And 636 00:34:11,356 --> 00:34:13,916 Speaker 1: how can I help my friends get happier doing the same. 637 00:34:14,756 --> 00:34:17,436 Speaker 1: Here's one easy first step. If a friend is looking 638 00:34:17,476 --> 00:34:20,476 Speaker 1: for a new podcast among the seven hundred thousand available, 639 00:34:20,876 --> 00:34:22,996 Speaker 1: you can just tell them, hey, you should try The 640 00:34:23,036 --> 00:34:40,316 Speaker 1: Happiness Lab with doctor Laurie Santos. The Happiness Lab is 641 00:34:40,356 --> 00:34:43,036 Speaker 1: co written and produced by Ryan Dilly. The show is 642 00:34:43,076 --> 00:34:46,356 Speaker 1: mixed and mastered by Evan Viola and edited by Julia Barton, 643 00:34:46,876 --> 00:34:50,476 Speaker 1: fact checking by Joseph Friedman, and our original music was 644 00:34:50,516 --> 00:34:55,156 Speaker 1: composed by Zachary Silver. Special thanks to me A La Belle, 645 00:34:55,596 --> 00:35:00,916 Speaker 1: Carl mcgliori, Heather Faine, Maggie Taylor, Maya, Kaynigg, and Jacob Weisberg. 646 00:35:02,236 --> 00:35:04,796 Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab is brought to you by Pushkin Industries 647 00:35:04,996 --> 00:35:11,676 Speaker 1: and me Doctor Laurie Santos