1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:23,956 Speaker 1: Pushkin, you bet it? Hello made it? Happy birthday, Thank you. 2 00:00:24,236 --> 00:00:26,796 Speaker 1: It's my mom's seventieth birthday, and so she's come to 3 00:00:26,876 --> 00:00:29,876 Speaker 1: visit me at Yale. Tomorrow morning. We're heading off somewhere 4 00:00:29,876 --> 00:00:33,196 Speaker 1: sunny for a short vacation together. But tonight we just 5 00:00:33,236 --> 00:00:35,716 Speaker 1: want to relax a bit. My mom had been on 6 00:00:35,756 --> 00:00:37,876 Speaker 1: the road for a while and so I really wanted 7 00:00:37,876 --> 00:00:40,756 Speaker 1: her to get some food. We want to eat. Where 8 00:00:40,796 --> 00:00:43,636 Speaker 1: can we go? Well, it's New Angrands. We didn't go 9 00:00:43,676 --> 00:00:48,156 Speaker 1: anywhere food. He's love New Haven. It's a town filled 10 00:00:48,156 --> 00:00:51,676 Speaker 1: with gourmet restaurants, funky hipster bars, world famous pizza joints, 11 00:00:51,716 --> 00:00:54,476 Speaker 1: and even food trucks. Whatever you're in the mood for, 12 00:00:54,796 --> 00:01:00,036 Speaker 1: it's usually just a few blocks away. Pizza too cheesy, cheesy, 13 00:01:01,356 --> 00:01:06,276 Speaker 1: Mexican food to spicy. My mom's a picky eater, and 14 00:01:06,316 --> 00:01:08,836 Speaker 1: we don't always have the same preferences, but in New 15 00:01:08,916 --> 00:01:15,276 Speaker 1: Hay we're usually okay sushi, no sushi, carrean fried chicken, no. 16 00:01:15,436 --> 00:01:18,036 Speaker 1: I don't really like Asian food regularly, chicken would be good. 17 00:01:18,276 --> 00:01:21,556 Speaker 1: Fifteen minutes and about one hundred options later, we finally 18 00:01:21,596 --> 00:01:24,316 Speaker 1: find a place that works, a restaurant that does great 19 00:01:24,356 --> 00:01:31,676 Speaker 1: salads made to order, beta tofu, olives, bacon, archokarts, gorgonzola, avocado, walnuts, crazins, 20 00:01:31,756 --> 00:01:36,276 Speaker 1: Crazins dressing on the side. Yep, I usually feel really 21 00:01:36,316 --> 00:01:38,636 Speaker 1: blessed to have such a variety of tasty cuisine on 22 00:01:38,676 --> 00:01:41,756 Speaker 1: my doorstep, and having the ability to customize all the 23 00:01:41,876 --> 00:01:46,036 Speaker 1: ingredients in our order usually feels empowering, like we're in control, 24 00:01:47,436 --> 00:01:50,396 Speaker 1: white fish. But as I scrolled through restaurant after restaurant, 25 00:01:50,516 --> 00:01:53,556 Speaker 1: menu after menu with my mom, I started to feel 26 00:01:53,556 --> 00:01:57,876 Speaker 1: a bit drained, a bit depleted, maybe even a bit defeated. 27 00:01:58,996 --> 00:02:02,636 Speaker 1: All right, that's what you want, Okay, great ordered. Yeah, 28 00:02:06,476 --> 00:02:08,316 Speaker 1: it's your birthday, you get to get what you need. 29 00:02:09,236 --> 00:02:11,796 Speaker 1: So what if our obsession with choice isn't all that 30 00:02:11,836 --> 00:02:15,396 Speaker 1: it's cracked up to be. What if all this choice 31 00:02:15,796 --> 00:02:19,556 Speaker 1: is making us less satisfied and more unhappy than we think. 32 00:02:28,796 --> 00:02:30,956 Speaker 1: Our minds are constantly telling us what to do to 33 00:02:30,996 --> 00:02:33,716 Speaker 1: be happy. But what if our minds are wrong? What 34 00:02:33,836 --> 00:02:36,476 Speaker 1: if our minds are lying to us, leading us away 35 00:02:36,676 --> 00:02:39,756 Speaker 1: from what will really make us happy. The good news 36 00:02:39,956 --> 00:02:42,236 Speaker 1: is that understanding the science of the mind can point 37 00:02:42,316 --> 00:02:45,316 Speaker 1: us all back in the right direction. You're listening to 38 00:02:45,396 --> 00:03:00,716 Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab with doctor Laurie Santans. I'm sitting in 39 00:03:00,836 --> 00:03:03,836 Speaker 1: Louise Lunch, which is said to be the birthplace of 40 00:03:03,876 --> 00:03:06,956 Speaker 1: an American classic. It's just down the street from my house. 41 00:03:09,156 --> 00:03:13,916 Speaker 1: Around nineteen hundred, Louie Lasson, Danish immigrant and lunch wagon proprietor, 42 00:03:14,276 --> 00:03:18,836 Speaker 1: was dealing with the difficult customer. According to family legend, 43 00:03:19,036 --> 00:03:22,716 Speaker 1: a regular named Gary Woodmore hurried in and shouted, slap 44 00:03:22,716 --> 00:03:25,116 Speaker 1: a meat puck between two planks and step on it. 45 00:03:25,836 --> 00:03:28,676 Speaker 1: But Louie was out of whole stakes. Trying to placate 46 00:03:28,716 --> 00:03:31,596 Speaker 1: the man, Louie quickly grilled up some ground beef trimmings, 47 00:03:31,756 --> 00:03:34,236 Speaker 1: stuck it between two slices of toast, and handed it 48 00:03:34,276 --> 00:03:37,916 Speaker 1: off With that hurried act. It said that the first 49 00:03:37,916 --> 00:03:42,356 Speaker 1: American hamburger was invented. There's still some controversy about this 50 00:03:42,396 --> 00:03:45,876 Speaker 1: origin story, but what makes Louise Lunch different from the 51 00:03:45,916 --> 00:03:49,556 Speaker 1: other alleged hamburger creators is the fact that they've doubled 52 00:03:49,556 --> 00:03:52,516 Speaker 1: down on the very sandwich that people loved a hundred 53 00:03:52,596 --> 00:03:56,116 Speaker 1: years ago. When you walk into Louise Lunch today, you 54 00:03:56,156 --> 00:03:59,236 Speaker 1: can order the same burger that Woodmore enjoyed, but pretty 55 00:03:59,276 --> 00:04:02,716 Speaker 1: much nothing else. You can add cheese, tomato, and onion, 56 00:04:02,956 --> 00:04:06,836 Speaker 1: but that's it. No bacon, no lettuce, just a straight 57 00:04:06,916 --> 00:04:10,676 Speaker 1: up burger. And never ever ask the staff for ketchup. 58 00:04:11,956 --> 00:04:13,836 Speaker 1: If somebody came in and ask you, guys for ketchup, 59 00:04:13,876 --> 00:04:16,116 Speaker 1: what would you say? We politely decline it most of 60 00:04:16,156 --> 00:04:19,876 Speaker 1: the time. That's Jeff Lassen, Louie's great grandson and the 61 00:04:19,916 --> 00:04:23,236 Speaker 1: current owner. One of the cooks gave us a slightly 62 00:04:23,276 --> 00:04:26,076 Speaker 1: more nuanced reply, what we really do, get the hell 63 00:04:26,116 --> 00:04:29,156 Speaker 1: out of here. It don't come back. Louise unique selling 64 00:04:29,196 --> 00:04:31,316 Speaker 1: point is the fact that you don't have to choose. 65 00:04:31,636 --> 00:04:35,316 Speaker 1: In fact, you can't, which makes walking into Louise Lunch 66 00:04:35,596 --> 00:04:39,316 Speaker 1: a very different experience than entering any other New Haven restaurant. 67 00:04:39,716 --> 00:04:42,516 Speaker 1: Their menus feel like a small book. A lot of 68 00:04:42,596 --> 00:04:45,116 Speaker 1: people and restaurants do have a lot of options and 69 00:04:45,156 --> 00:04:48,676 Speaker 1: they try to cater everybody. But we stick to what 70 00:04:48,836 --> 00:04:51,396 Speaker 1: we do best and what we've been doing for a 71 00:04:51,516 --> 00:04:54,756 Speaker 1: hundred twenty four years, and that's keeping it himple and 72 00:04:54,916 --> 00:04:57,636 Speaker 1: making it easy for not only ourselves but everybody else. 73 00:04:57,756 --> 00:05:00,676 Speaker 1: And when you do that and do what you do best, 74 00:05:01,356 --> 00:05:03,876 Speaker 1: I think you have a better product. But as Jeff 75 00:05:03,916 --> 00:05:06,796 Speaker 1: right do you really have a better product when you 76 00:05:06,876 --> 00:05:10,996 Speaker 1: limit your customers choices. Wouldn't having more options actually make 77 00:05:10,996 --> 00:05:15,916 Speaker 1: our experience better? That's what psychologists Shena Hyangar and Mark 78 00:05:15,996 --> 00:05:18,796 Speaker 1: Lepper set out to test in a famous study. They 79 00:05:18,796 --> 00:05:22,756 Speaker 1: headed to one of Ayangar's favorite shops, the famous Drager's Market, 80 00:05:22,916 --> 00:05:26,556 Speaker 1: a high end store in Menlo Park, California, for two 81 00:05:26,596 --> 00:05:29,436 Speaker 1: Saturday afternoons in a row. A. Yongar and Lepper had 82 00:05:29,476 --> 00:05:32,676 Speaker 1: research assistance dress up Lake store employees near a table 83 00:05:32,676 --> 00:05:35,916 Speaker 1: at the entrance. Customers who stopped by were promised a 84 00:05:35,956 --> 00:05:38,716 Speaker 1: dollar off their purchase of high end Wilkin and Son's 85 00:05:38,796 --> 00:05:42,156 Speaker 1: jam if they tried some free samples. What the researchers 86 00:05:42,236 --> 00:05:45,436 Speaker 1: varied was how many jams people had a chance to taste. 87 00:05:45,956 --> 00:05:49,996 Speaker 1: Some customers could sample six different kinds of jam Kiwi, peach, 88 00:05:50,316 --> 00:05:54,436 Speaker 1: black cherry, three fruits, marmalade, lemon, curd red current, which 89 00:05:54,596 --> 00:05:57,396 Speaker 1: you might think already sounds like a lot. But at 90 00:05:57,396 --> 00:06:02,316 Speaker 1: other times, the researchers increased that jam selection fourfold. People 91 00:06:02,396 --> 00:06:05,676 Speaker 1: had a chance to sample a whopping twenty four different 92 00:06:05,756 --> 00:06:08,476 Speaker 1: kinds of jam. Did the difference in the number of 93 00:06:08,556 --> 00:06:12,956 Speaker 1: jams of the affect people's behaviors. While twenty percent more 94 00:06:12,956 --> 00:06:15,716 Speaker 1: people stopped at the table when twenty four jams were 95 00:06:15,716 --> 00:06:18,956 Speaker 1: on offer, which makes sense, right, more jams to sample, 96 00:06:19,236 --> 00:06:21,756 Speaker 1: more people show up to check them out. But did 97 00:06:21,796 --> 00:06:25,196 Speaker 1: the number of people who bought something increase? After all, 98 00:06:25,516 --> 00:06:28,276 Speaker 1: those customers had a chance to sample nearly all the 99 00:06:28,356 --> 00:06:32,156 Speaker 1: available Wilkins and sun jams in existence, so they surely 100 00:06:32,156 --> 00:06:36,116 Speaker 1: found one they liked. But surprisingly that's not what happened. 101 00:06:36,596 --> 00:06:39,356 Speaker 1: With six jams to taste. About thirty percent of people 102 00:06:39,476 --> 00:06:42,156 Speaker 1: ended up using their coupon, but when shoppers were faced 103 00:06:42,156 --> 00:06:45,716 Speaker 1: with twenty four jams, only three percent made a purchase. 104 00:06:46,236 --> 00:06:49,436 Speaker 1: Ten times more customers bought something when they were given 105 00:06:49,556 --> 00:06:55,116 Speaker 1: fewer options. Paradoxically, giving people more choice made people buy 106 00:06:55,356 --> 00:07:02,036 Speaker 1: less stuff. Everyone has had the experience of walking into 107 00:07:02,036 --> 00:07:05,236 Speaker 1: a store and just wanting to turn around and walk out. 108 00:07:05,676 --> 00:07:08,396 Speaker 1: This is Verry Schortz, a professor at the Host School 109 00:07:08,396 --> 00:07:11,716 Speaker 1: of Business, UC Berkeley. He has written an entire book 110 00:07:11,796 --> 00:07:14,636 Speaker 1: drawing on experiments like that jam study. They pretty much 111 00:07:14,636 --> 00:07:17,396 Speaker 1: all show the same thing. When we're faced with lots 112 00:07:17,396 --> 00:07:20,916 Speaker 1: of options, we become paralyzed by them. So he called 113 00:07:20,956 --> 00:07:23,876 Speaker 1: his book The Paradox of choice. There's a set of 114 00:07:23,916 --> 00:07:26,996 Speaker 1: beliefs that are so deeply embedded in us that I 115 00:07:27,076 --> 00:07:28,996 Speaker 1: don't even think we realized we hold them, and that 116 00:07:29,236 --> 00:07:34,556 Speaker 1: is that if you want to enhance people's wellbeing, you 117 00:07:34,596 --> 00:07:37,076 Speaker 1: want to enhance their freedom. And if you want to 118 00:07:37,196 --> 00:07:41,596 Speaker 1: enhance their freedom, you have to enhance their choice. And 119 00:07:41,636 --> 00:07:45,276 Speaker 1: that seems so obviously true that it didn't occur to 120 00:07:45,356 --> 00:07:49,956 Speaker 1: anyone to investigate it. It occurred to Barry, though, he 121 00:07:50,076 --> 00:07:53,236 Speaker 1: spent decades figuring out how this explosion of choice is 122 00:07:53,236 --> 00:07:57,276 Speaker 1: affecting our well being. He started simply. He just walked 123 00:07:57,276 --> 00:08:00,316 Speaker 1: the aisles of his local supermarket and began counting. There 124 00:08:00,316 --> 00:08:03,156 Speaker 1: were two hundred and seventy five different kinds of cookies 125 00:08:03,156 --> 00:08:06,476 Speaker 1: and one hundred and fifty salad dressings, thirty different kinds 126 00:08:06,516 --> 00:08:10,316 Speaker 1: of aspirin. The only way we get through a trip 127 00:08:10,356 --> 00:08:13,396 Speaker 1: to the supermarket is that ninety of what we buy 128 00:08:13,516 --> 00:08:16,076 Speaker 1: is the same stuff we bought last week, and everything 129 00:08:16,076 --> 00:08:19,036 Speaker 1: else is invisible to us. And if we actually started 130 00:08:19,036 --> 00:08:22,156 Speaker 1: paying attention to everything, we've starved to death. Before we 131 00:08:22,276 --> 00:08:26,036 Speaker 1: finished our weekly shopping trip. Barry got me thinking about 132 00:08:26,076 --> 00:08:29,156 Speaker 1: the seemingly minor choices I face on a daily basis, 133 00:08:29,796 --> 00:08:33,516 Speaker 1: it's dizzy ing take blopping down to watch something on Netflix. 134 00:08:34,436 --> 00:08:37,076 Speaker 1: Even if I just look at what Netflix recommends for 135 00:08:37,236 --> 00:08:41,996 Speaker 1: me personally, it's overwhelming. It can feel like hundreds of options. 136 00:08:42,396 --> 00:08:44,516 Speaker 1: There's some little bit of evidence that what happens when 137 00:08:44,556 --> 00:08:47,276 Speaker 1: you do that is people end up just throwing up 138 00:08:47,316 --> 00:08:50,196 Speaker 1: their hands and watching a movie they've already seen. They 139 00:08:50,276 --> 00:08:52,796 Speaker 1: go for the familiar because they can't figure out how 140 00:08:52,796 --> 00:08:55,596 Speaker 1: to choose among the unfamiliar. I started to do the 141 00:08:55,676 --> 00:08:58,396 Speaker 1: math on just how overwhelming some of these choices are. 142 00:08:59,156 --> 00:09:02,676 Speaker 1: Take a visit to one well known coffee shop, it's Starbucks. 143 00:09:02,676 --> 00:09:06,716 Speaker 1: How many different drink options does that company offer? It 144 00:09:06,756 --> 00:09:13,556 Speaker 1: turns out over eighty eighty thousand. To put that in perspective, 145 00:09:13,796 --> 00:09:16,876 Speaker 1: if I went to that coffee shop with Starbucks three 146 00:09:16,916 --> 00:09:19,836 Speaker 1: times a day, every single day for the rest of 147 00:09:19,836 --> 00:09:22,396 Speaker 1: my life, I'd need to live to one hundred and 148 00:09:22,476 --> 00:09:26,316 Speaker 1: fifteen years old just to try all those permutations. And 149 00:09:26,436 --> 00:09:29,956 Speaker 1: that's not even including the seasonal pumpkin spice drinks. Do 150 00:09:30,036 --> 00:09:33,956 Speaker 1: we seriously need that many choices? And say you do 151 00:09:34,036 --> 00:09:37,356 Speaker 1: discover that perfect coffee and that huge haystack of choice, 152 00:09:38,156 --> 00:09:41,796 Speaker 1: the tragic thing is you won't actually enjoy it all 153 00:09:41,836 --> 00:09:45,436 Speaker 1: that much. Our minds might tell us that finding the 154 00:09:45,476 --> 00:09:48,956 Speaker 1: best of eighty thousand options will feel like an achievement, 155 00:09:49,356 --> 00:09:52,956 Speaker 1: but that's simply not the case. One study had people 156 00:09:52,996 --> 00:09:55,516 Speaker 1: imagine trying to find a greeting card for a coworker, 157 00:09:56,036 --> 00:09:58,756 Speaker 1: either picking from shelf after shelf of cards or just 158 00:09:58,796 --> 00:10:02,316 Speaker 1: a limited selection, who turned out to be the least 159 00:10:02,396 --> 00:10:06,036 Speaker 1: satisfied with their purchase. You guessed it. The shoppers with 160 00:10:06,076 --> 00:10:09,436 Speaker 1: a gazillion choices, it's so easy to imagine that one 161 00:10:09,476 --> 00:10:11,956 Speaker 1: of the options they rejected would have been better than 162 00:10:11,996 --> 00:10:15,276 Speaker 1: the one they chose. The more you compare, the more 163 00:10:15,356 --> 00:10:18,236 Speaker 1: the thing you've chosen suffers. So you end up making 164 00:10:18,236 --> 00:10:20,756 Speaker 1: a good decision and feeling bad about it. And that 165 00:10:20,876 --> 00:10:24,516 Speaker 1: is the cruel irony of all these choices. When lots 166 00:10:24,516 --> 00:10:27,356 Speaker 1: of options are present, Even if we do well, we 167 00:10:27,476 --> 00:10:32,396 Speaker 1: still feel worse. But lack of satisfaction isn't the only 168 00:10:32,396 --> 00:10:35,956 Speaker 1: issue with all these choices. There's a bigger problem. Our 169 00:10:35,996 --> 00:10:39,036 Speaker 1: poor minds just can't handle comparing one hundred greeting cards 170 00:10:39,436 --> 00:10:43,116 Speaker 1: or eighty thousand coffee drinks all at once. Human brains 171 00:10:43,156 --> 00:10:46,636 Speaker 1: simply don't have the capacity to accurately decide whether a 172 00:10:46,796 --> 00:10:51,396 Speaker 1: Ventisoi latte with caramel is tastier than seventy nine, nine 173 00:10:51,476 --> 00:10:54,916 Speaker 1: hundred and ninety nine other options, at least not in 174 00:10:54,956 --> 00:10:57,756 Speaker 1: real time. So we just filter most of the other 175 00:10:57,756 --> 00:11:00,916 Speaker 1: options out. But all that filtering still comes at a 176 00:11:00,956 --> 00:11:04,676 Speaker 1: serious cost to our well being. Just seeing all those 177 00:11:04,756 --> 00:11:09,236 Speaker 1: choices above the counter is cognitively draining, so draining that 178 00:11:09,236 --> 00:11:12,316 Speaker 1: it leads to worst decisions later on, a phenomenon the 179 00:11:12,396 --> 00:11:16,956 Speaker 1: behavioral scientists call decision fatigue. We all suffer from this 180 00:11:16,996 --> 00:11:19,716 Speaker 1: phenomenon to a certain degree, but only some of us 181 00:11:19,756 --> 00:11:23,716 Speaker 1: realize it. Take Barack Obama for example. He clearly got it. 182 00:11:23,996 --> 00:11:25,676 Speaker 1: I don't know if you've noticed it. He always wore 183 00:11:25,676 --> 00:11:28,716 Speaker 1: a white shirt, and he kind of cycled through his suits. 184 00:11:28,996 --> 00:11:32,116 Speaker 1: When asked about his repetitive wardrobe, the President summed up 185 00:11:32,196 --> 00:11:37,036 Speaker 1: decision fatigue perfectly. Obama said, have you got any idea 186 00:11:37,116 --> 00:11:39,196 Speaker 1: how many decisions I have to make in a day? 187 00:11:39,436 --> 00:11:41,596 Speaker 1: Do you think I want to spend time to side 188 00:11:42,076 --> 00:11:45,436 Speaker 1: where forget the important stuff like whether it were a 189 00:11:45,436 --> 00:11:47,276 Speaker 1: blue suit or a gray suit, and worry about the 190 00:11:47,316 --> 00:11:50,836 Speaker 1: trivial things like making sure everyone has healthcare. Obama is 191 00:11:50,916 --> 00:11:53,676 Speaker 1: right about this. We only have a certain amount of 192 00:11:53,676 --> 00:11:57,196 Speaker 1: mental effort to put towards the hard decisions. If we 193 00:11:57,236 --> 00:12:00,116 Speaker 1: waste that effort on, say, ordering coffee or picking out 194 00:12:00,116 --> 00:12:03,276 Speaker 1: a tie, we won't have the mental wherewithal needed for 195 00:12:03,316 --> 00:12:06,356 Speaker 1: the important choices. There's a study shows that when you 196 00:12:06,396 --> 00:12:11,356 Speaker 1: have people make a hundred hypothetical decisions, all trivial, and 197 00:12:11,396 --> 00:12:14,516 Speaker 1: then you give them a task that challenges their self control, 198 00:12:15,316 --> 00:12:21,716 Speaker 1: they give up easily. So choosing is exhausting, even when 199 00:12:21,716 --> 00:12:25,996 Speaker 1: it's about trivial stuff. It just wears you out. But 200 00:12:26,076 --> 00:12:29,476 Speaker 1: it gets worse because it turns out all those decidedly 201 00:12:29,676 --> 00:12:32,756 Speaker 1: non trivial choices in life, they're also set up in 202 00:12:32,796 --> 00:12:36,316 Speaker 1: ways that overload us. We're given too many options there 203 00:12:36,636 --> 00:12:39,796 Speaker 1: as well to raise the stakes. The same thing happens 204 00:12:39,836 --> 00:12:43,876 Speaker 1: with four oh one K retirement participation, and they found 205 00:12:43,916 --> 00:12:47,116 Speaker 1: that the more options you offered, the less likely people 206 00:12:47,156 --> 00:12:49,956 Speaker 1: were to choose any You lost about two percent for 207 00:12:50,036 --> 00:12:54,476 Speaker 1: every ten options. And in many cases, workers were passing 208 00:12:54,516 --> 00:12:57,356 Speaker 1: up matching money from the employer by not signing up, 209 00:12:57,676 --> 00:13:00,676 Speaker 1: So the single worst thing they could do was choose 210 00:13:00,716 --> 00:13:03,356 Speaker 1: none of the above. When people are faced with too 211 00:13:03,356 --> 00:13:06,436 Speaker 1: many retirement plans, they don't know how to make the decision, 212 00:13:06,876 --> 00:13:08,796 Speaker 1: and so they put it off. There had to be 213 00:13:08,876 --> 00:13:11,756 Speaker 1: a decision about which fund. I don't know how to 214 00:13:11,796 --> 00:13:15,156 Speaker 1: make that decision. I'll decide tomorrow. But tomorrow isn't any 215 00:13:15,236 --> 00:13:19,196 Speaker 1: different from today. So it just keeps getting postponed and postponed. 216 00:13:19,236 --> 00:13:23,716 Speaker 1: And I'm sure that everyone thought they were doing employees 217 00:13:23,756 --> 00:13:26,916 Speaker 1: a favor by offering all these options. We'll just lay 218 00:13:26,916 --> 00:13:29,756 Speaker 1: them all out there and you can get exactly the 219 00:13:29,796 --> 00:13:33,836 Speaker 1: set of investments that you want. What a gift, Well, no, 220 00:13:34,436 --> 00:13:37,876 Speaker 1: a curse actually, So why do companies keep cursing us 221 00:13:37,876 --> 00:13:41,396 Speaker 1: like this, especially when people would buy more things if 222 00:13:41,396 --> 00:13:44,196 Speaker 1: there were fewer choices. There's a reason for this. I 223 00:13:44,236 --> 00:13:47,476 Speaker 1: think somebody walks into your store and says, do you 224 00:13:47,556 --> 00:13:51,116 Speaker 1: have Royal Crown Cola? You just have Coco and pepsi, 225 00:13:51,596 --> 00:13:54,956 Speaker 1: And so this person walks out empty handed. Well, that's 226 00:13:54,956 --> 00:13:57,396 Speaker 1: a smack in your face. That's a sale you would 227 00:13:57,396 --> 00:14:01,156 Speaker 1: have made if only you'd had Royal Crown Cola. Someone 228 00:14:01,196 --> 00:14:04,076 Speaker 1: else comes into a store and buys five dollars worth 229 00:14:04,076 --> 00:14:07,556 Speaker 1: of stuff instead of fifteen dollars because you've tortured them 230 00:14:07,556 --> 00:14:10,796 Speaker 1: with so many options. It's invisible to you. You don't 231 00:14:10,876 --> 00:14:14,396 Speaker 1: know the price you're paying by making it more complicated 232 00:14:14,436 --> 00:14:16,676 Speaker 1: than it needs to be. So the crazy thing with 233 00:14:16,716 --> 00:14:19,076 Speaker 1: the choice overload is that I know this work like 234 00:14:19,076 --> 00:14:21,876 Speaker 1: a senior Ted talk write your book, But even I, 235 00:14:22,076 --> 00:14:24,076 Speaker 1: you know, would I rather have a Netflix with ten 236 00:14:24,116 --> 00:14:27,836 Speaker 1: films or ten million films? I still have the intuition 237 00:14:27,836 --> 00:14:33,116 Speaker 1: that I want more choice. I know everybody does. When 238 00:14:33,116 --> 00:14:36,036 Speaker 1: Barry lectures about this work, he gets a lot of pushback, 239 00:14:36,636 --> 00:14:40,596 Speaker 1: especially from his students. I can see they're kind of smirking, 240 00:14:41,036 --> 00:14:44,036 Speaker 1: and I think that what they think is he's old. 241 00:14:44,596 --> 00:14:47,276 Speaker 1: He doesn't know how to take advantage of what the 242 00:14:47,316 --> 00:14:51,076 Speaker 1: modern world offers. And sometimes one of them will actually 243 00:14:51,116 --> 00:14:54,556 Speaker 1: have the nerve to say that, And when they do, 244 00:14:55,156 --> 00:14:58,196 Speaker 1: I'm delighted because I say, you know, I think that's 245 00:14:58,236 --> 00:15:01,356 Speaker 1: really what it is. That must explain why it is 246 00:15:01,396 --> 00:15:04,476 Speaker 1: that eighty five percent of you are clinically depressed and 247 00:15:04,676 --> 00:15:07,556 Speaker 1: nine of you are going to see a shrink because 248 00:15:07,596 --> 00:15:12,116 Speaker 1: you handle this all oh well. Choosing between jams is 249 00:15:12,116 --> 00:15:14,676 Speaker 1: a pain, and picking a good four one K plan 250 00:15:14,796 --> 00:15:18,276 Speaker 1: can have big financial consequences. When I first started thinking 251 00:15:18,316 --> 00:15:21,436 Speaker 1: about this episode, I was focused on these kinds of decisions, 252 00:15:21,556 --> 00:15:23,636 Speaker 1: ones that are having a huge impact on our well being, 253 00:15:24,076 --> 00:15:27,076 Speaker 1: but are largely run of the mill. Personal preference is 254 00:15:27,116 --> 00:15:30,676 Speaker 1: stuff cases where there's no real right decision to be made. 255 00:15:31,476 --> 00:15:33,316 Speaker 1: But as I read more and more of the work 256 00:15:33,316 --> 00:15:36,636 Speaker 1: on Choice Overload, I realized that we're now being asked 257 00:15:36,636 --> 00:15:39,596 Speaker 1: to make decisions and domains that go way beyond shopping. 258 00:15:39,916 --> 00:15:42,836 Speaker 1: The buck also stops with us for decisions that can 259 00:15:42,876 --> 00:15:48,196 Speaker 1: have critical moral consequences, ones that literally involve life and death. 260 00:15:48,596 --> 00:15:50,996 Speaker 1: Maybe you got admitted to the hospital because you felt 261 00:15:51,076 --> 00:15:53,556 Speaker 1: like you felt terrible for a while, and then they 262 00:15:53,596 --> 00:15:56,876 Speaker 1: told you had leukemia and that you could have a 263 00:15:56,956 --> 00:16:00,516 Speaker 1: really aggressive chemotherapy that might kill you and might save 264 00:16:00,516 --> 00:16:05,236 Speaker 1: your life, or chantler chemotherapy that's going to slow down 265 00:16:05,236 --> 00:16:08,956 Speaker 1: this leukemia but never cure you of it. And you 266 00:16:09,236 --> 00:16:11,876 Speaker 1: have to figure out that night which type of chemotherapy 267 00:16:11,916 --> 00:16:15,396 Speaker 1: to start. Hard to think of a harder decision to make. 268 00:16:16,276 --> 00:16:35,356 Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab will be right back. It was spring 269 00:16:35,476 --> 00:16:37,916 Speaker 1: and twenty one year old Karen Anne Quinlin had just 270 00:16:38,036 --> 00:16:40,996 Speaker 1: moved away from home. For the last few days, she'd 271 00:16:41,036 --> 00:16:43,276 Speaker 1: been on a crash diet, hoping to fit into a 272 00:16:43,316 --> 00:16:45,916 Speaker 1: new dress for an upcoming party. After a couple of 273 00:16:45,996 --> 00:16:49,636 Speaker 1: drinks and some valium. Karen felt dizzy, so her friends 274 00:16:49,676 --> 00:16:52,236 Speaker 1: took her home and put her to bed, But then 275 00:16:53,036 --> 00:16:56,916 Speaker 1: Karen stopped breathing in a few minutes. It took her 276 00:16:56,916 --> 00:17:00,996 Speaker 1: housemates to notice her brain suffered huge and irreparable damage. 277 00:17:01,716 --> 00:17:05,236 Speaker 1: Karen wasn't dead, there were tiny signs of brain activity, 278 00:17:05,276 --> 00:17:07,756 Speaker 1: but her doctors were gloomy about the prospect that she 279 00:17:07,756 --> 00:17:12,996 Speaker 1: would ever recover. Karen's play dramatically pitted her parents, Joseph 280 00:17:13,036 --> 00:17:16,196 Speaker 1: and Julia Quinlan, against the medical profession in a way 281 00:17:16,396 --> 00:17:21,196 Speaker 1: never seen before. Karen's parents were devout Catholics. They thought 282 00:17:21,196 --> 00:17:23,316 Speaker 1: the machine that was helping her to breathe should be 283 00:17:23,356 --> 00:17:28,956 Speaker 1: shut off the family. The parents decided it was morally acceptable. 284 00:17:28,956 --> 00:17:31,196 Speaker 1: In fact, the best thing to do would be to 285 00:17:31,236 --> 00:17:35,316 Speaker 1: take the ventilator away, let their daughter die so she 286 00:17:35,356 --> 00:17:38,476 Speaker 1: could be with God. This is Peter Ubel, a physician 287 00:17:38,476 --> 00:17:43,196 Speaker 1: and behavioral scientist at Duke University. And the doctors refused. 288 00:17:43,596 --> 00:17:46,116 Speaker 1: They said that would be killing her, and they didn't 289 00:17:46,116 --> 00:17:48,156 Speaker 1: do that, and it wasn't The parents decision to make 290 00:17:48,436 --> 00:17:51,116 Speaker 1: the argument soon made it to core were the judge 291 00:17:51,196 --> 00:17:53,596 Speaker 1: rule that the treating physician had to make the call. 292 00:17:54,356 --> 00:17:57,636 Speaker 1: Legally speaking, the Quinlan's were not allowed to govern what 293 00:17:57,796 --> 00:18:01,116 Speaker 1: treatment their daughter received, but the couple didn't give up. 294 00:18:01,516 --> 00:18:06,196 Speaker 1: They soon appealed. The New Jersey State Supreme Court said, yeah, no, 295 00:18:06,316 --> 00:18:09,036 Speaker 1: the parents do have the right here. It is their daughter, 296 00:18:09,516 --> 00:18:12,516 Speaker 1: and it's not a medical decision here, it's a moral 297 00:18:12,556 --> 00:18:15,156 Speaker 1: decision and the doctors aren't the ones to decide what's 298 00:18:15,196 --> 00:18:17,396 Speaker 1: right or wrong in that case. Peter thinks this was 299 00:18:17,436 --> 00:18:21,716 Speaker 1: a pivotal moment in a wider generational movement demanding more 300 00:18:21,796 --> 00:18:24,356 Speaker 1: choice in our lives. Around the same time, this is 301 00:18:24,356 --> 00:18:26,676 Speaker 1: around the seventies, you're seeing a lot of people in 302 00:18:26,876 --> 00:18:29,716 Speaker 1: the United States in particular, who are kind of standing 303 00:18:29,796 --> 00:18:31,676 Speaker 1: up to the power, the power that's got people in 304 00:18:31,676 --> 00:18:33,236 Speaker 1: a war they don't want to be in, that's trying 305 00:18:33,236 --> 00:18:35,916 Speaker 1: to keep people from voting that want to vote. And 306 00:18:35,956 --> 00:18:38,956 Speaker 1: I think the patient empowerment movement kind of fit into 307 00:18:38,996 --> 00:18:43,316 Speaker 1: that narrative. And you saw people not only lawyers, but 308 00:18:43,916 --> 00:18:47,996 Speaker 1: theologians and philosophers and enlightened physicians saying we need to 309 00:18:48,036 --> 00:18:51,596 Speaker 1: give patients a bigger role in their decisions. It's their bodies, 310 00:18:51,636 --> 00:18:54,116 Speaker 1: after all, they have a right to know what we're 311 00:18:54,156 --> 00:18:56,596 Speaker 1: doing to them and why. But this level of patient 312 00:18:56,716 --> 00:19:00,716 Speaker 1: choice in medicine was totally new for all of human history. 313 00:19:00,756 --> 00:19:04,556 Speaker 1: Before this, it was doctor knows best. You as a 314 00:19:04,596 --> 00:19:07,276 Speaker 1: patient just trusted this person to tell you what to do. 315 00:19:07,676 --> 00:19:10,156 Speaker 1: Going back to the time of Hippocrity, the physicians were 316 00:19:10,196 --> 00:19:14,076 Speaker 1: told not to burden people with knowledge that wouldn't help them, 317 00:19:14,156 --> 00:19:17,676 Speaker 1: and he typically he might or might not tell you 318 00:19:17,716 --> 00:19:20,076 Speaker 1: what's even wrong with you. Maybe you just were told 319 00:19:20,116 --> 00:19:21,916 Speaker 1: you had a shadow on your X ray, but it 320 00:19:21,916 --> 00:19:23,716 Speaker 1: was really a cancer that doctor knew it but didn't 321 00:19:23,716 --> 00:19:26,436 Speaker 1: want to worry you. In his work, Peter records real 322 00:19:26,476 --> 00:19:31,076 Speaker 1: interactions between physicians and patients, playing them back. It's clear 323 00:19:31,116 --> 00:19:33,916 Speaker 1: to Peter that things have changed a lot. Oh now 324 00:19:33,916 --> 00:19:36,756 Speaker 1: it's a mess. It's pretty common to run into a 325 00:19:36,756 --> 00:19:38,876 Speaker 1: patient who says, well, okay, doctor, what should I do? 326 00:19:39,276 --> 00:19:42,036 Speaker 1: And then the doctor says, well, it's for you to decide. 327 00:19:42,076 --> 00:19:44,196 Speaker 1: I can't tell you what to do. It's your choice. 328 00:19:45,076 --> 00:19:48,596 Speaker 1: That can drive patients crazy. I don't think doctors know 329 00:19:48,716 --> 00:19:52,676 Speaker 1: what we're supposed to do anymore. It's gone from doctor 330 00:19:52,756 --> 00:19:56,556 Speaker 1: knows best to patient knows best. But do patients really 331 00:19:56,596 --> 00:20:00,676 Speaker 1: know best? After all, they don't have decades of medical training, 332 00:20:00,836 --> 00:20:04,396 Speaker 1: constant refresher courses, and new medical journals dropping on their 333 00:20:04,396 --> 00:20:08,716 Speaker 1: doorstep every month. The modern revolution of patient choice has 334 00:20:08,756 --> 00:20:11,596 Speaker 1: given decision power to people who don't often have the 335 00:20:11,636 --> 00:20:15,356 Speaker 1: information they need, and Peter's research shows that doctors try 336 00:20:15,396 --> 00:20:18,636 Speaker 1: to help, but they often do it badly. They know 337 00:20:18,716 --> 00:20:21,556 Speaker 1: one thing, we need to inform the hell out of 338 00:20:21,556 --> 00:20:24,516 Speaker 1: this patient. That's the one thing that doctors have pretty 339 00:20:24,596 --> 00:20:28,796 Speaker 1: universally taken as the lesson from this patient empowerment revolution 340 00:20:28,796 --> 00:20:33,076 Speaker 1: of the seventies and eighties. Patients deserve information. Rarely do 341 00:20:33,156 --> 00:20:35,196 Speaker 1: they know the best way to give them that information, 342 00:20:35,276 --> 00:20:38,356 Speaker 1: how much to give them, And even more rarely do 343 00:20:38,396 --> 00:20:41,636 Speaker 1: they assess patient understanding in a really good way before 344 00:20:41,636 --> 00:20:44,036 Speaker 1: they then work to make a decision with the patient. 345 00:20:44,196 --> 00:20:46,556 Speaker 1: So we have more information, maybe even more options on 346 00:20:46,556 --> 00:20:48,636 Speaker 1: the table, but it's not clear that patients know how 347 00:20:48,676 --> 00:20:51,476 Speaker 1: to make the best choice that's right, or that doctors 348 00:20:51,516 --> 00:20:53,476 Speaker 1: know how to partner with them to make those choices. 349 00:20:54,116 --> 00:20:58,236 Speaker 1: Peters no stranger to these kinds of awful situations. In fact, 350 00:20:58,516 --> 00:21:01,236 Speaker 1: he's faced them in his own family. My wife had 351 00:21:01,356 --> 00:21:04,556 Speaker 1: early stage breast cancer diagnosed about seven years ago. She 352 00:21:04,636 --> 00:21:06,796 Speaker 1: was in her forties, still that's a bad aged. Well, 353 00:21:06,876 --> 00:21:08,836 Speaker 1: there's no good age to be diagnosed with breastcancer, but 354 00:21:08,876 --> 00:21:12,316 Speaker 1: it's especially serious when you're younger. Like that, Peter's wife 355 00:21:12,356 --> 00:21:15,516 Speaker 1: was offered many choices about her treatment, the first being 356 00:21:15,516 --> 00:21:18,396 Speaker 1: whether she wanted her whole breast removed or just the tumor. 357 00:21:19,276 --> 00:21:22,236 Speaker 1: Being a physician, Peter dug into the data on all 358 00:21:22,276 --> 00:21:25,276 Speaker 1: of these options. To his horror, he found out the 359 00:21:25,316 --> 00:21:28,276 Speaker 1: way the choices were being framed didn't accurately reflect the 360 00:21:28,356 --> 00:21:32,436 Speaker 1: risks or rewards of each of the options. Studying the figures, 361 00:21:32,836 --> 00:21:35,436 Speaker 1: Peter found that extending his wife's treatment by a week 362 00:21:35,796 --> 00:21:39,036 Speaker 1: only slightly decreased the chance of her tumor returning, but 363 00:21:39,276 --> 00:21:42,676 Speaker 1: massively increased the chances of his wife's suffering painful and 364 00:21:42,756 --> 00:21:46,116 Speaker 1: disfiguring side effects. And that to me feels like a 365 00:21:46,196 --> 00:21:49,156 Speaker 1: choice that a patient ought to be able to make. 366 00:21:49,476 --> 00:21:52,436 Speaker 1: And yet almost any woman would have walked into that 367 00:21:52,476 --> 00:21:54,356 Speaker 1: situation and just be told that she had a sixth 368 00:21:54,396 --> 00:21:57,276 Speaker 1: week of treatment coming, and not told what the pros 369 00:21:57,276 --> 00:22:00,156 Speaker 1: and cons of that choice are. So, while the doctors 370 00:22:00,156 --> 00:22:02,396 Speaker 1: were placing the weight of the decision making onto the 371 00:22:02,396 --> 00:22:05,356 Speaker 1: couple's shoulders, they seem to have no system in place 372 00:22:05,356 --> 00:22:07,636 Speaker 1: to give Peter and his wife the information they needed 373 00:22:07,796 --> 00:22:11,996 Speaker 1: to make an informed choice. That either means they overinform 374 00:22:12,076 --> 00:22:14,556 Speaker 1: you often about things irrelevant to the decision, to where 375 00:22:14,556 --> 00:22:16,676 Speaker 1: you're so confused you don't know what to do, or 376 00:22:16,756 --> 00:22:19,596 Speaker 1: they selectively inform you, thinking they're telling you what you 377 00:22:19,636 --> 00:22:22,276 Speaker 1: need to know, and maybe they're making the wrong assumption. 378 00:22:22,476 --> 00:22:25,276 Speaker 1: It's a really tough place to make a decision, but 379 00:22:25,356 --> 00:22:29,236 Speaker 1: it got worse. Having made a series of choices, Peter's 380 00:22:29,236 --> 00:22:32,876 Speaker 1: wife finally had an operation, a lumpectomy to remove the cancer. 381 00:22:33,596 --> 00:22:36,876 Speaker 1: As part of the procedure, the team inspected nearby tissue 382 00:22:36,956 --> 00:22:39,476 Speaker 1: to see if her disease had spread, and they found 383 00:22:39,756 --> 00:22:42,916 Speaker 1: one lymphanode that was a centimeter large that was basically tumor. 384 00:22:43,716 --> 00:22:47,036 Speaker 1: And the surgeon calls calls me up. My wife is 385 00:22:47,036 --> 00:22:50,196 Speaker 1: still under anesthesia. They're part way through the operation, and 386 00:22:50,236 --> 00:22:52,396 Speaker 1: so he poses me how many of these lymphnodes you 387 00:22:52,436 --> 00:22:54,836 Speaker 1: want me to go after? And then I'm just like, Okay, 388 00:22:54,836 --> 00:22:57,836 Speaker 1: so my wife's under anesthesia. I have to decide how 389 00:22:57,836 --> 00:23:01,116 Speaker 1: many of our lymphnotes remove and one possibility is I 390 00:23:01,196 --> 00:23:05,396 Speaker 1: say don't remove anymore. And then she wakes up and 391 00:23:05,436 --> 00:23:07,476 Speaker 1: then decides, boy, I wish we'd had and removed and 392 00:23:07,476 --> 00:23:09,116 Speaker 1: do they have to go back into a second surgeon 393 00:23:10,076 --> 00:23:12,196 Speaker 1: or I remove them? And then she's going to wake 394 00:23:12,276 --> 00:23:14,476 Speaker 1: up later and say you had them remove all those 395 00:23:14,516 --> 00:23:16,236 Speaker 1: lymph nodes and I'm going to have all that swelling. 396 00:23:16,876 --> 00:23:19,756 Speaker 1: That was my choice. The surreal exchange went back and 397 00:23:19,796 --> 00:23:23,036 Speaker 1: forth with a heavy heart and fearing the awful side effects. 398 00:23:23,556 --> 00:23:26,516 Speaker 1: Peter said, the lymph nodes should come out. How did 399 00:23:26,516 --> 00:23:30,436 Speaker 1: the doctor not anticipate that this was a possible branch point? 400 00:23:30,916 --> 00:23:33,316 Speaker 1: How did that surgeon not talk to both of us beforehand? 401 00:23:33,356 --> 00:23:35,956 Speaker 1: And now, look there's a possibility. You know they always 402 00:23:35,996 --> 00:23:37,916 Speaker 1: go in and look at lymph nodes. Why didn't he 403 00:23:37,956 --> 00:23:39,556 Speaker 1: tell us, you know, we're going to have to figure 404 00:23:39,596 --> 00:23:41,156 Speaker 1: out what to do if any of them show cancer 405 00:23:41,196 --> 00:23:43,036 Speaker 1: in them, and you face this burden. I mean, it 406 00:23:43,036 --> 00:23:44,836 Speaker 1: would be awful for your wife to face this burden 407 00:23:44,836 --> 00:23:47,036 Speaker 1: because it's a hard choice. But it's not your body. 408 00:23:47,076 --> 00:23:49,996 Speaker 1: It's her body that's right, and to her credit, she 409 00:23:50,636 --> 00:23:52,756 Speaker 1: didn't ever make me feel like it made the wrong choice. 410 00:23:53,036 --> 00:23:55,156 Speaker 1: But it's to never a position I should have been 411 00:23:55,196 --> 00:24:02,036 Speaker 1: put in. Yeah, yeah, very preventable. Working on this episode, 412 00:24:02,276 --> 00:24:05,036 Speaker 1: I've now started noticing all the decisions I'm faced with 413 00:24:05,196 --> 00:24:09,396 Speaker 1: on a daily basis. Luckily I haven't recently faced thing 414 00:24:09,396 --> 00:24:11,196 Speaker 1: as hard as Peter and his wife had to deal with. 415 00:24:11,796 --> 00:24:14,196 Speaker 1: But it still feels like there's no escape from all 416 00:24:14,196 --> 00:24:17,996 Speaker 1: these decisions and that nagging feeling that I'm making the 417 00:24:18,036 --> 00:24:21,156 Speaker 1: wrong choices all the time. And so I started to 418 00:24:21,156 --> 00:24:23,996 Speaker 1: look for some role models, people who had found a 419 00:24:24,036 --> 00:24:27,236 Speaker 1: way out of the trap of too much choice. A 420 00:24:27,316 --> 00:24:30,516 Speaker 1: typical day for me would involve, you know, just so 421 00:24:30,556 --> 00:24:34,476 Speaker 1: many questions, and each answer to those questions was a 422 00:24:34,556 --> 00:24:37,916 Speaker 1: decision that I was making. This is writer and blogger 423 00:24:37,996 --> 00:24:41,356 Speaker 1: Courtney Carver. Back in two thousand and six, she received 424 00:24:41,396 --> 00:24:45,116 Speaker 1: some life shattering news, and she reacted in exactly the 425 00:24:45,156 --> 00:24:49,316 Speaker 1: way that the science of psychology recommends. She stopped treating 426 00:24:49,396 --> 00:24:52,636 Speaker 1: lots of choices as a good thing. Let's get rid 427 00:24:52,676 --> 00:24:55,116 Speaker 1: of these decisions that we make every day that don't 428 00:24:55,116 --> 00:24:57,676 Speaker 1: have a whole lot of impact on our lives. The 429 00:24:57,756 --> 00:25:08,556 Speaker 1: Happiness Lab will be right back. This is clearly a 430 00:25:08,836 --> 00:25:12,236 Speaker 1: very very popular session, So once again, while you are 431 00:25:12,316 --> 00:25:15,156 Speaker 1: welcome to stand along the sides of the room and 432 00:25:15,196 --> 00:25:18,516 Speaker 1: then back, please know that I met Courtney Carver last winter, well, 433 00:25:18,516 --> 00:25:21,716 Speaker 1: we did a panel discussion together at the Massachusetts Conference 434 00:25:21,716 --> 00:25:24,996 Speaker 1: for Women. The main room was completely packed if you 435 00:25:25,076 --> 00:25:27,236 Speaker 1: also want to be, as Hamilton the musical would say, 436 00:25:27,236 --> 00:25:30,156 Speaker 1: in the room where it happened, we certainly welcome you 437 00:25:30,196 --> 00:25:33,036 Speaker 1: to come in and cozy up. The clamor for seats 438 00:25:33,036 --> 00:25:35,956 Speaker 1: didn't surprise me. The topic we were set to discuss 439 00:25:36,076 --> 00:25:39,236 Speaker 1: was burnout and how to avoid it. All right, clearly, 440 00:25:39,396 --> 00:25:42,276 Speaker 1: we have nothing to talk about here, right and burnout 441 00:25:42,356 --> 00:25:45,316 Speaker 1: is not a common problem for any of us, as 442 00:25:45,356 --> 00:25:48,436 Speaker 1: I conceived by the packed house we have here. The 443 00:25:48,476 --> 00:25:51,556 Speaker 1: panel was promoting a really positive goal, but it centered 444 00:25:51,556 --> 00:25:53,636 Speaker 1: on an idea that all of us have to say 445 00:25:53,676 --> 00:25:56,356 Speaker 1: no a little bit more for the sake of our happiness. 446 00:25:56,996 --> 00:25:59,436 Speaker 1: And Courtney Carver is a bit of a rock star 447 00:25:59,556 --> 00:26:01,996 Speaker 1: in the saying no movement. Even on a good day, 448 00:26:02,036 --> 00:26:04,436 Speaker 1: most of us have more decisions than we want to 449 00:26:04,476 --> 00:26:06,636 Speaker 1: deal with to make, like what we're going to wear 450 00:26:06,636 --> 00:26:10,556 Speaker 1: in the morning. That for sure, always seemed to overwhelm 451 00:26:10,596 --> 00:26:14,396 Speaker 1: me as an advertising exect. Having lots of fashion choices 452 00:26:14,436 --> 00:26:17,316 Speaker 1: was important to Courtney, but choosing something cool to wear 453 00:26:17,396 --> 00:26:21,516 Speaker 1: every morning was exhausting, so she made a radical decision. 454 00:26:21,996 --> 00:26:25,196 Speaker 1: I had been simplifying other areas of my life for years, 455 00:26:25,476 --> 00:26:29,796 Speaker 1: but I never considered the closet or shopping because I 456 00:26:29,876 --> 00:26:32,196 Speaker 1: just thought that was an essential part of my life. 457 00:26:32,796 --> 00:26:35,876 Speaker 1: But the simpler the rest of my life got, the 458 00:26:35,996 --> 00:26:39,116 Speaker 1: more chaotic my closet felt, and I thought, I wonder 459 00:26:39,156 --> 00:26:42,636 Speaker 1: what it would be like to dress with less. She 460 00:26:42,756 --> 00:26:46,236 Speaker 1: decided to reduce her wardrobe choices, just like Obama did, 461 00:26:46,596 --> 00:26:50,756 Speaker 1: and so I created a challenge, a minimalist fashion challenge 462 00:26:51,036 --> 00:26:54,316 Speaker 1: that I named Project three thirty three, where I would 463 00:26:54,396 --> 00:27:01,116 Speaker 1: dress with thirty three items for three months, including clothes, jewelry, accessories, 464 00:27:01,116 --> 00:27:06,116 Speaker 1: and shoes, not counting underwear, sleepware like at home loungewear 465 00:27:06,236 --> 00:27:09,716 Speaker 1: or workout clothes. I didn't get rid of everything right away. 466 00:27:10,356 --> 00:27:12,716 Speaker 1: I just boxed it up and got it out of 467 00:27:12,756 --> 00:27:15,716 Speaker 1: sight for three months. I just thought there might be 468 00:27:15,716 --> 00:27:18,596 Speaker 1: a lot to learn from that. So what did you learn? Well? 469 00:27:18,636 --> 00:27:21,556 Speaker 1: So much. The first thing I learned is that my 470 00:27:21,876 --> 00:27:26,756 Speaker 1: clothes and my closet was stressful, and that it sent 471 00:27:26,836 --> 00:27:29,996 Speaker 1: me into the day feeling a bit frazzled, And it 472 00:27:30,076 --> 00:27:33,996 Speaker 1: was just so relieving for me. I felt so good 473 00:27:34,036 --> 00:27:35,996 Speaker 1: that I didn't have to look at all of my 474 00:27:36,676 --> 00:27:40,236 Speaker 1: bad purchase decisions, the clothes that didn't fit me, the 475 00:27:40,276 --> 00:27:44,036 Speaker 1: clothes I didn't enjoy or like, the clothes with tags 476 00:27:44,076 --> 00:27:47,236 Speaker 1: still hanging. You know, I would buy something thinking it 477 00:27:47,276 --> 00:27:48,756 Speaker 1: was such a great deal, and then I would never 478 00:27:48,796 --> 00:27:52,436 Speaker 1: even cut the tags off and wear it. But not 479 00:27:52,596 --> 00:27:56,076 Speaker 1: everyone takes to Project three thirty three straight away. Some 480 00:27:56,156 --> 00:27:59,396 Speaker 1: people are even horrified by the idea. I definitely get 481 00:27:59,516 --> 00:28:05,516 Speaker 1: some pushback from people wondering or challenging. You know, isn't 482 00:28:05,516 --> 00:28:10,116 Speaker 1: that so boring, That's so uncreative. I could never do that. 483 00:28:10,916 --> 00:28:14,916 Speaker 1: I remember the first day before I opened my closet, 484 00:28:14,996 --> 00:28:18,196 Speaker 1: thinking I'm not going to have enough people are going 485 00:28:18,236 --> 00:28:20,716 Speaker 1: to notice. But I remember when I opened the closet, 486 00:28:21,276 --> 00:28:26,116 Speaker 1: all I felt was calm and peace, and here are 487 00:28:26,196 --> 00:28:28,756 Speaker 1: my choices. You know, I don't have to express my 488 00:28:28,836 --> 00:28:32,916 Speaker 1: creativity by what I wear. There wasn't anything I was 489 00:28:32,956 --> 00:28:35,436 Speaker 1: ever really excited about. It was something that I felt 490 00:28:35,436 --> 00:28:38,796 Speaker 1: compelled to do to fit in, and in reality I 491 00:28:38,836 --> 00:28:41,836 Speaker 1: didn't have to work as hard as I did. Courtney's 492 00:28:41,876 --> 00:28:44,636 Speaker 1: realization that she was a slave to her extensive wardrobe 493 00:28:44,876 --> 00:28:47,396 Speaker 1: strikes a chord with many other women, and her Project 494 00:28:47,396 --> 00:28:50,436 Speaker 1: three thirty three idea is catching on. I don't know 495 00:28:50,516 --> 00:28:53,476 Speaker 1: officially how many people have done it, but I suspect 496 00:28:53,556 --> 00:28:57,796 Speaker 1: it's in the tens of thousands. And it's so wonderful 497 00:28:57,876 --> 00:29:00,876 Speaker 1: to see people sharing a lot of the same benefits 498 00:29:00,956 --> 00:29:05,756 Speaker 1: in terms of less stress and anxiety, getting ready on time, 499 00:29:06,076 --> 00:29:11,676 Speaker 1: more peaceful mournings, saving money, saving energy, being more creative 500 00:29:11,676 --> 00:29:15,716 Speaker 1: in other areas of their life. It's fascinating. Courtney is 501 00:29:15,756 --> 00:29:19,156 Speaker 1: a thoughtful and articulate advocate for simplifying our daily routines, 502 00:29:19,796 --> 00:29:23,356 Speaker 1: and her book, Soulful Simplicity provides a lot of helpful advice, 503 00:29:23,756 --> 00:29:26,916 Speaker 1: But it's Courtney's personal story that makes her argument all 504 00:29:26,956 --> 00:29:29,876 Speaker 1: the more compelling, because Courtney was on the same choice 505 00:29:29,916 --> 00:29:32,756 Speaker 1: treadmill as the rest of us until two thousand and six, 506 00:29:33,356 --> 00:29:35,916 Speaker 1: when things started to really go wrong for her. I 507 00:29:35,956 --> 00:29:40,636 Speaker 1: didn't feel well. I had vertigo and some tingling in 508 00:29:40,716 --> 00:29:44,396 Speaker 1: my face. I was very tired, extremely fatigued. As a 509 00:29:44,436 --> 00:29:48,276 Speaker 1: busy professional in mother, Courtney just assumed these unnerving feelings 510 00:29:48,396 --> 00:29:50,756 Speaker 1: were nothing more than the side effects of stress. I 511 00:29:50,916 --> 00:29:53,876 Speaker 1: was behind on a lot of work deadlines, I was 512 00:29:53,996 --> 00:29:57,396 Speaker 1: volunteering at my daughter's school, I was traveling, and just 513 00:29:57,476 --> 00:30:00,116 Speaker 1: trying to do all the things that most of us 514 00:30:00,156 --> 00:30:03,516 Speaker 1: try to fit into a normal day, and it was overwhelming. 515 00:30:03,956 --> 00:30:06,476 Speaker 1: On top of all of this, Courtney was also in 516 00:30:06,516 --> 00:30:09,956 Speaker 1: training for a charity cycling of it in fifty mile 517 00:30:10,076 --> 00:30:14,116 Speaker 1: race to support the Multiple Sclerosis Society. My boss at 518 00:30:14,116 --> 00:30:18,596 Speaker 1: the time had MS and I was riding for him, 519 00:30:18,756 --> 00:30:21,676 Speaker 1: but because I wasn't feeling well, I was in between 520 00:30:21,716 --> 00:30:26,036 Speaker 1: doctor's appointments and tests and so dizzy that I really 521 00:30:26,076 --> 00:30:29,636 Speaker 1: couldn't even ride my bike. I couldn't even walk a 522 00:30:29,676 --> 00:30:33,116 Speaker 1: straight line most of the time. Eventually, she had to 523 00:30:33,116 --> 00:30:36,116 Speaker 1: give up on the race. Her doctors had finally figured 524 00:30:36,116 --> 00:30:39,156 Speaker 1: out what was wrong MS. The very disease that had 525 00:30:39,156 --> 00:30:42,316 Speaker 1: struck her boss's nervous system was also at the root 526 00:30:42,356 --> 00:30:46,116 Speaker 1: of courtney symptoms too. On top of really feeling crappy, 527 00:30:46,236 --> 00:30:49,156 Speaker 1: to get this diagnosis that was terrible. I had nothing 528 00:30:49,956 --> 00:30:54,716 Speaker 1: but fear initially, and in my case, I was diagnosed 529 00:30:54,756 --> 00:30:58,236 Speaker 1: over the phone while I was at work. I said, 530 00:30:58,316 --> 00:31:01,676 Speaker 1: what's next? What should I do? It was just the 531 00:31:01,716 --> 00:31:04,596 Speaker 1: sort of awful phone call that Peter Eubull was telling 532 00:31:04,676 --> 00:31:08,156 Speaker 1: us about. Courtney was immediately asked to make choices. She 533 00:31:08,236 --> 00:31:10,916 Speaker 1: was totally unprepared for She said, why don't you come 534 00:31:10,916 --> 00:31:14,636 Speaker 1: in and pick up some marketing kits for the drugs 535 00:31:14,676 --> 00:31:17,956 Speaker 1: that are available and pick one? Oh my gosh, and 536 00:31:18,156 --> 00:31:21,076 Speaker 1: I just thought, I mean, what's nuts? When I look 537 00:31:21,116 --> 00:31:23,356 Speaker 1: back on it is I just thought, Okay, that's what 538 00:31:23,516 --> 00:31:27,516 Speaker 1: you do, So that's what I did. The entire situation 539 00:31:27,636 --> 00:31:30,636 Speaker 1: was overwhelming, and it forced Courtney to ask a lot 540 00:31:30,636 --> 00:31:33,116 Speaker 1: of hard questions, what are you doing with your life? 541 00:31:33,996 --> 00:31:35,676 Speaker 1: Is this how you want to live? Are these the 542 00:31:35,756 --> 00:31:38,956 Speaker 1: choices that you want to make? I don't, by any 543 00:31:38,956 --> 00:31:42,396 Speaker 1: means think that I caused this disease, but I know 544 00:31:42,476 --> 00:31:47,316 Speaker 1: that the stress in my life contributed to exacerbations and relapses. 545 00:31:47,556 --> 00:31:51,036 Speaker 1: And I started to see all of the things that 546 00:31:51,276 --> 00:31:53,396 Speaker 1: I had built my life around and added to my 547 00:31:53,476 --> 00:31:58,156 Speaker 1: life over the years that were stressful, and so I 548 00:31:58,156 --> 00:32:01,876 Speaker 1: set out to eliminate as much of that stress as possible. 549 00:32:02,316 --> 00:32:05,556 Speaker 1: What's most fascinating is that Project three thirty three hasn't 550 00:32:05,596 --> 00:32:09,316 Speaker 1: just improved Courtney's mood and her bank account. Courtney also 551 00:32:09,316 --> 00:32:13,156 Speaker 1: attributes reducing her choices with making her feel better physically. 552 00:32:13,516 --> 00:32:17,876 Speaker 1: Since reducing her closet choices, Courtney's MS has improved. So 553 00:32:17,956 --> 00:32:21,876 Speaker 1: now I am symptom free. For the most part. I 554 00:32:21,916 --> 00:32:26,236 Speaker 1: feel better than I did even prior to my diagnosis 555 00:32:26,276 --> 00:32:30,116 Speaker 1: because I'm taking so much better care of myself. Courtney's 556 00:32:30,116 --> 00:32:33,396 Speaker 1: story isn't just about fitting out her wardrobe. Courtney's mind 557 00:32:33,436 --> 00:32:36,196 Speaker 1: had lied to her for years and years, but she 558 00:32:36,236 --> 00:32:38,756 Speaker 1: woke up to it and it's made her so much 559 00:32:38,796 --> 00:32:43,116 Speaker 1: happier than she ever expected. I think that we're conditioned 560 00:32:43,956 --> 00:32:47,276 Speaker 1: to believe that more is always the answer, and that 561 00:32:47,356 --> 00:32:50,476 Speaker 1: will be happier with more. Things will be better with more, 562 00:32:51,556 --> 00:32:55,676 Speaker 1: will be more loved if we prove ourselves more. But 563 00:32:55,716 --> 00:32:59,116 Speaker 1: as it turns out, less, at least for me, is 564 00:32:59,116 --> 00:33:05,076 Speaker 1: the answer. You know, less choosing, less doing. I'm much 565 00:33:05,116 --> 00:33:12,276 Speaker 1: happier with doing less making this episode has that a 566 00:33:12,316 --> 00:33:16,076 Speaker 1: real impact on me. Reducing the choice overload in our 567 00:33:16,116 --> 00:33:19,356 Speaker 1: daily lives. It's no easy feat, but I'm trying. I 568 00:33:19,476 --> 00:33:21,836 Speaker 1: recently decided to start my day with the exact same 569 00:33:21,876 --> 00:33:25,796 Speaker 1: breakfast every morning. It's not much, but it's one less 570 00:33:25,836 --> 00:33:28,196 Speaker 1: decision to contend with before I get to the real 571 00:33:28,276 --> 00:33:31,636 Speaker 1: choices that face me in the grind ahead. So look 572 00:33:31,676 --> 00:33:34,716 Speaker 1: for your own little strategies to reduce choices and apply 573 00:33:34,796 --> 00:33:38,316 Speaker 1: them whenever you can and steal some hints from the masters, 574 00:33:38,316 --> 00:33:41,396 Speaker 1: like research or berry shorts. He shared a great tip 575 00:33:41,436 --> 00:33:43,716 Speaker 1: that I'll try next time I sit down at a restaurant. 576 00:33:43,876 --> 00:33:46,436 Speaker 1: I don't even look at the menu. I don't care 577 00:33:46,476 --> 00:33:48,836 Speaker 1: how many options there are. I wait for everyone else 578 00:33:48,876 --> 00:33:52,476 Speaker 1: to order, and then I choose whichever of those dishes 579 00:33:52,556 --> 00:33:55,516 Speaker 1: sounds best to me. So, in effect, I'm choosing from 580 00:33:55,636 --> 00:33:59,916 Speaker 1: three or from five, and not from fifteen. And so 581 00:33:59,956 --> 00:34:02,716 Speaker 1: I'll leave this episode with a final thought, which is, 582 00:34:03,036 --> 00:34:05,676 Speaker 1: don't get bogged down by all the big menus in life. 583 00:34:06,356 --> 00:34:08,636 Speaker 1: Ask yourself, how can I cut down on some of 584 00:34:08,676 --> 00:34:11,756 Speaker 1: the decision in my own life? And how can I 585 00:34:11,796 --> 00:34:15,196 Speaker 1: help my friends get happier doing the same. Here's one 586 00:34:15,196 --> 00:34:17,636 Speaker 1: easy first step. If a friend is looking for a 587 00:34:17,676 --> 00:34:21,156 Speaker 1: new podcast among the seven hundred thousand available, you can 588 00:34:21,196 --> 00:34:23,796 Speaker 1: just tell them, Hey, you should try The Happiness Lab 589 00:34:23,876 --> 00:34:40,796 Speaker 1: with doctor Laurie Santos. The Happiness Lab is co written 590 00:34:40,836 --> 00:34:43,436 Speaker 1: and produced by Ryan Dilley. The show is mixed and 591 00:34:43,476 --> 00:34:47,076 Speaker 1: mastered by Evan Viola and edited by Julia Barton, fact 592 00:34:47,156 --> 00:34:50,996 Speaker 1: checking by Joseph Friedman, and our original music was composed 593 00:34:51,036 --> 00:34:56,436 Speaker 1: by Zachary Silver. Special thanks to Mila Belle, Carl mcgliori, 594 00:34:56,876 --> 00:35:02,276 Speaker 1: Heather Faine, Maggie Taylor, Maya Kanig, and Jacob Weisberg. The 595 00:35:02,316 --> 00:35:04,996 Speaker 1: Happiness Lab is brought to you by Pushkin Industries and 596 00:35:05,196 --> 00:35:07,716 Speaker 1: me Doctor Laurie Santos