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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert here, just introducing we've got another rerun.

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Speaker 2: This is the first time we've done two weeks in

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Speaker 2: a row. Normally we just do one week at the

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Speaker 2: end of the year. But all of the other shows

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Speaker 2: on our network and most of the other shows that

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Speaker 2: I know in podcasting take off two weeks. And Sophie

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Speaker 2: was like, hey, Robert, why don't you actually take off

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Speaker 2: two weeks instead of cramming during your vacation to write

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Speaker 2: another podcast so that we don't fall behind. And I

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Speaker 2: was like, you know what, Sophie, that's a pretty good idea.

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Speaker 2: So anyway, that's what we're doing. Enjoy this episode on

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Speaker 2: how cigarettes invented Everything. Oh, welcome once again to Behind

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Speaker 2: the Bastards, the only podcast where the host regularly says

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Speaker 2: that his show is cash money. I'm I'm Robert Evans

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Speaker 2: here to talk with you about bad people. Sophie Lichtman

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Speaker 2: seems very unhappy, which is not.

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Speaker 1: I just have extreme secondhand embarrassment.

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Speaker 2: Well that's too bad, Sophie, because I'm bringing it back, bringing.

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Speaker 3: Back the phrase, as you know, everything you do reflects

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Speaker 3: on me for some god forsaken reason. I know, I know,

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Speaker 3: and that is not very cash money of you, Robert.

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Speaker 2: I think it's extremely cash money of me. But here

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Speaker 2: to be the tie breaking vote is James Stout. Now, James,

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Speaker 2: you're British, so so the phrase cash money may not

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Speaker 2: mean much to you in your language. I would say

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Speaker 2: it's drawings of an elderly man who's never worked today

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Speaker 2: in his life.

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Speaker 4: Yeah it is now is now.

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Speaker 5: Cash money has very little value when it's tied to

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Speaker 5: the life expectancy of an inbred old person with sausage fingers.

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Speaker 2: I thought a bunch of different ways of describing the

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Speaker 2: new bills with King Charles on them. Part of me

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Speaker 2: wanted to make a reference to the weird sexts that

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Speaker 2: got leaked of him and Camillah I made. I made

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Speaker 2: an ethical decision that even the King of England deserves

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Speaker 2: to have his set be private.

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Speaker 1: I just like, don't need nobody.

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Speaker 5: Needed, Okay, just you don't want to think about him

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Speaker 5: sneaking outside and what was it like getting his pajamas

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Speaker 5: dirty and having his valet clean them.

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: That and his he's got some he's got a very

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Speaker 2: specific kink okay, yeah, yeah, as well as William Yeah, okay, little.

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Speaker 1: Is this kink murdering his first wife.

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Speaker 2: No, it's it's it's a tampon thing.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, not expected.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we we know far too much about what Charles

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Speaker 2: has been sending my heart breaking him out. I would say,

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Speaker 2: don't don't google it. Look, I'm telling you the truth,

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Speaker 2: but don't google this. Okay, hey, my heart anyway, So

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Speaker 2: I just broke my promise right there not to not

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Speaker 2: to laugh at the King of England's sexual escapades. James,

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Speaker 2: how do you feel about cigarettes? Oh?

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Speaker 4: I think I wasn't expecting that kind of ambiguous. I guess.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, a lot of the bad things happened because people

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Speaker 5: like to smoke cigarettes. A lot of people like to

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Speaker 5: get really really up in other people's business about smoking cigarettes.

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Speaker 4: It's a difficult one.

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Speaker 2: I I have the same difficulty because on one hand,

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Speaker 2: I'm kind of constitutionally anti prohibition, Like I don't think

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Speaker 2: things should be illegal or illegal. I don't think the

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Speaker 2: government should stop people from doing stuff just because it's

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Speaker 2: bad for their health. And I also see cultural value

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Speaker 2: to an extent in cigarettes. I've had some memorable there's

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Speaker 2: I tend to believe that every single drug, even the

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Speaker 2: one that we call bad drugs, has an ideal use

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Speaker 2: case where it is is a societal good for the

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Speaker 2: drug to be available, and for cigarettes, that good is

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Speaker 2: when someone has just tried to kill you. There's a

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Speaker 2: there's nothing like a cigarette someone tried to kill or hurt.

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Speaker 4: You, which is why they're so valued about outside of

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Speaker 4: British nightclub Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: You never know when a bottle's coming for your fucking

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Speaker 2: temple there, you don't. Yeah, that's it, you know, I

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Speaker 2: I but I get it, like it's one of those things.

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Speaker 2: The there was a need for a period of time

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Speaker 2: where we attacked and demonized, particularly the tobacco industry, because

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Speaker 2: they lied to everybody about the health risks of cigarettes

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Speaker 2: in a way that that caused that cost more lives

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Speaker 2: maybe than all of the wars in the last century.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of an unbelievable body count. That said, I

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Speaker 2: think today people throw down too much against smokers, and

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Speaker 2: maybe there's maybe maybe we shouldn't be quite so s

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Speaker 2: to people who just happen to smoke cigarettes. But what

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Speaker 2: I wanted to talk about this week is fucking the

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Speaker 2: history of cigarettes, because as I dug into this, I

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Speaker 2: was initially planning just to do an episode on Big

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Speaker 2: tobacco and how they hid the health harms of cigarettes,

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Speaker 2: and we will do those episodes. We're going to talk

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Speaker 2: about that. Some of these we will do dedicated episodes

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Speaker 2: on those. But as I got into the research, I

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Speaker 2: was continually amazed by the extent to which cigarettes are

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Speaker 2: responsible for most of like the things that we consider

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Speaker 2: the modern world. It's like the cigarettes in order to

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Speaker 2: get people to smoke, the tobacco industry had to invent

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Speaker 2: modern civilizations. And that's that's a fascinating story and I

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Speaker 2: just want to talk about it. It's one of those

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Speaker 2: we're getting behind a bastard at this point, you know,

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Speaker 2: when we're talking about the eighteen hundreds up through like

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Speaker 2: the middle of the twentieth century. You're not a bad

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Speaker 2: person for necessarily for trying to get people to smoke,

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Speaker 2: because if it's nineteen oh five, number one, cigarettes not

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Speaker 2: a massive risk above like walking outside your door, you know.

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Speaker 2: But also you just don't have good data.

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Speaker 5: So yeah, the ambient level of smoking is pretty high

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Speaker 5: just from existing in any urban.

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Speaker 2: Ama, just from being around. We'll talk about that a bit,

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Speaker 2: but first we have to do some prehistory. Now, we

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Speaker 2: don't know exactly when the first human beings started smoking

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Speaker 2: or otherwise ingesting tobacco for the first time, because there's

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Speaker 2: a good chance the earliest tobacco users were not smoking it.

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Speaker 2: But we're broadly speaking, I mean, and there's debate about

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Speaker 2: this too, but archaeologists can confirm that by at latest

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Speaker 2: the first century BC, the Maya people of Central America

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Speaker 2: were using tobacco as a part of their religious rituals,

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Speaker 2: and they were both smoking it and like inhaling it

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Speaker 2: in kind of a similar way to snuff. Right, you

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Speaker 2: can snort tobacco if it's ground. Finally enough, they probably

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Speaker 2: also chewed it. There were a couple of different devices

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Speaker 2: they had for smoking it. Next, we will never know

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Speaker 2: which was like the first, right, like we just know

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Speaker 2: which ones. We kind of have written records of early yes,

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Speaker 2: but a lot of those written records come from Europeans,

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Speaker 2: so obviously that's a long time after they would have

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Speaker 2: started using them. But and again there's even some debate

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Speaker 2: as to like, well, we're the Maya the first people

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Speaker 2: who are cultivating tobacco, and probably the answer to that

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Speaker 2: is no, But we certainly know the Maya we're cultivating

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Speaker 2: tobacco in the first century BC, and It spread from

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Speaker 2: Central America to the Mississippi Valley and beyond and was

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Speaker 2: quickly adopted by neighboring peoples from like four hundred to

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Speaker 2: seven hundred a d is when you see most of

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Speaker 2: this spread, and it makes it all the way out

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Speaker 2: to the fucking Caribbean.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, that's where Columbus runs into it at first, right.

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Speaker 2: That is exactly the next thing that happens in this

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Speaker 2: episode of James Christopher Goddamn. Columbus becomes the first European

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Speaker 2: to encounter tobacco, which was being smoked by the natives

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Speaker 2: of Hispaniola which is modern day Haiti and the Dominican Republic,

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Speaker 2: via a weird two pronged nosepipe. So they would smoke it,

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Speaker 2: but they would like inhale it through this pipe that like.

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Speaker 4: No snokel kind of situation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it looks a little bit. It looks a little

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Speaker 2: bit like a canula. Okay, yeah, like a nasal canula.

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Speaker 4: Interesting.

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Speaker 2: I made for my book A Brief History of Vice.

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Speaker 2: I recreated these pipes as best I could. I wound

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Speaker 2: up actually using the stock of dry like the dried

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Speaker 2: stock of marijuana plants, because it's hollow and so I

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Speaker 2: just had to kind of find wybins that were the

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Speaker 2: right shape. That's obviously. I don't think what they would

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Speaker 2: have used. I don't know what they plant they would

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Speaker 2: have used for it, But you do get pretty fucked

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Speaker 2: up when you smoke raw nicotine rustica through directly into

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Speaker 2: your mucous membrane.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I can see that one being pretty rough on

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Speaker 5: the old excituses as well.

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Speaker 2: I would not. It's one of those things you have

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Speaker 2: to divorce kind of you're thinking about tobacco in this

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Speaker 2: period from modern day because it's not number one, most

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Speaker 2: people smoking it. This is not an habitual thing for them.

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Speaker 2: It's a ritual thing for them.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 2: There are people, certainly by the time Columbus as Hispaniola,

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Speaker 2: who seem to just do it recreationally. But for the

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Speaker 2: most part, most people's encounters with tobacco is probably in

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Speaker 2: like a very kind of fairly strict ritual sense.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 2: And also it's pretty uncommon to have like a habit.

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Speaker 2: Even the people who would be heavy smokers, I doubt

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Speaker 2: are smoking more than the equivalent of a couple of

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Speaker 2: cigarettes in a day, in part because it's kind of

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Speaker 2: hard to when you're smoking at them but yes, right.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, there's a lot of work that I imagine goes

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Speaker 5: into producing a nose cigarette, from growing the tobacco.

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Speaker 4: Dry and get out and yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a lot of work. And you also, you

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Speaker 2: can't smoke just when you when you want to fix

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Speaker 2: because you don't have lighters, you don't have matches, right

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Speaker 2: like fire. Obviously, the people who are living, you know,

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Speaker 2: in these places are a lot better at starting fires

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Speaker 2: than most people in the modern world are, but it's

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Speaker 2: still not nearly as easy, right, Like you're not going

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Speaker 2: to just make a fire because you want like a

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Speaker 2: fucking smoke in the.

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Speaker 5: Like yeah fire, drill out, get a piece of word out,

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Speaker 5: rub it up.

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Speaker 4: At the idea.

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Speaker 2: So again, smoking, even when it's not like for a

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Speaker 2: religious purpose, it's probably broadly like okay, it's meal time

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Speaker 2: and we'll smoke after the meal, right, or like we'll

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Speaker 2: smoke before them because we've we've got the fire going,

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Speaker 2: or it's nighttime, we're cooling down, we've got the fire going,

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Speaker 2: you know, now we can smoke tonight, Like generally, that's

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Speaker 2: probably how it would have gone when Columbus winds up,

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Speaker 2: you know, meeting these people in fourteen ninety two and

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Speaker 2: watching them smoke. They actually hand him tobacco and he

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Speaker 2: doesn't know what to do with it until he watches

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Speaker 2: them smoke it, and he sees he encounters a couple

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Speaker 2: of different methods. He sees the nose pipes. He also

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Speaker 2: sees people wrapping tobacco leaves with corn husks, which is

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Speaker 2: probably the first cigarettes and hills.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, It's also worth noting that over in Cuba people

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Speaker 2: would wrap their tobacco in tobacco leafs, so they were

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Speaker 2: again like hundreds and hundreds of years ago, smoking cigars

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Speaker 2: and cubea. That actually goes back really fucking far. It

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Speaker 2: probably more than a thousand years people have been smoking

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Speaker 2: something broadly similar to a cigar in that.

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Speaker 4: That's pretty cool.

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Speaker 2: It is kind of neat, right, I enjoy it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 5: There are many things that we consume, I guess, you know,

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Speaker 5: sometimes we eat freese, vegetables and stuff, but it's not

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Speaker 5: much that we consume that people consumed a thousand years ago,

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Speaker 5: and it made in a pretty similar fashion. Right, Like

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Speaker 5: I've been to a Cuban cigar factory. Lisi is still

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Speaker 5: like rolled by hand.

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Speaker 2: We're going to talk about that a lot in these episodes,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, they they obviously different techniques have become popular

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Speaker 2: over time, and you get better at it the way

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Speaker 2: you get it anything. I'm sure modern cigars are much

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Speaker 2: tighter and you know, together better than cigars in fourteen

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Speaker 2: ninety two did. But broadly speaking, like part I mean,

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Speaker 2: like I'm a cigar smoker, I tend to think Cuban

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Speaker 2: cigars are the best.

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Speaker 5: I like to yeah, throughout the tragic that the cultural

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Speaker 5: inheritance of that today it's like guys who think that

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Speaker 5: they should enjoy a cigar.

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Speaker 4: The entire Republican party.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, like Ben Shapiro and friends pretending to perform

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Speaker 5: masculinity and then like going off to coffin be sick.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's it's a bummer they are. You know,

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Speaker 2: I'm not a I tend to like I've tried to

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Speaker 2: read a cigar afishing out on magazine once and it

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Speaker 2: had too many It had too many made up words.

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Speaker 2: They use words, and it's not like like liquor, you

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Speaker 2: know Number one liquor actually does like oh, sometimes you

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Speaker 2: get a bourbon, I'm like, oh this this almost tastes

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Speaker 2: more like a coffee, or there's like this this one's

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Speaker 2: sweeter and it's got this like rich body fucking like

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Speaker 2: cigars are smooth or not, but like I don't know,

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Speaker 2: I'll read them. They'll be like, oh and when you

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Speaker 2: on the on the retro hail, you get this like

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Speaker 2: taste of orange and juniper, And I'm like, no, you

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Speaker 2: fucking don't. There's no juniper in this fucking cigar. What

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Speaker 2: is wrong with you? People? Go to hell consumption, It's unreal.

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Speaker 2: The most pretentious thing that you can that you can

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Speaker 2: do is be a cigar efficient on cigar. Yeah, unreal.

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Speaker 2: Just smoke, Just kill yourself slowly. It's fine anyway. That's

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Speaker 2: kind of cute. Cool that Cubans have been making cigars

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Speaker 2: for hundreds and hundreds of years now. There were like,

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Speaker 2: as I said, the way that people most often use

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Speaker 2: tobacco in the Americas was in religious rights. And when

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Speaker 2: I'm taught, they're not just like smoking to get that

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Speaker 2: kind of little buzz you get from tobacco. The way

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Speaker 2: in which most of these indigenous groups would have used

259
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Speaker 2: tobacco was as a psychotropic right, like they are like

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Speaker 2: basically tripping on this stuff. Oh wow, Okay, Tobacco can

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Speaker 2: can cause hallucinations. And high enough doses. It's a it's

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Speaker 2: a powerful mind altering drug when you are taking like

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Speaker 2: massive quantities. Yeah, and they were number one. The tobacco

264
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Speaker 2: they're smoking is different than the tobacco that we cultivate.

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Speaker 2: It's a lot stronger, and the way they're doing it

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Speaker 2: is different. So one of the most common ways that

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Speaker 2: people would take tobacco in a ritual setting is the

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Speaker 2: chief or kind of religious there's a bunch of different

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Speaker 2: terms for local sort of religious and political leaders and whatnot.

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Speaker 2: But that dude would inhale a bunch of smoke straight

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Speaker 2: up raw from like a burning like hunk of tobacco,

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Speaker 2: and then he would basically shotgun it into the mouths

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Speaker 2: of the people participating in it. And obviously you're getting

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Speaker 2: a lot of smoke that way, like you're gonna get

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Speaker 2: pretty messy up. But and it's again, you know, it's

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Speaker 2: as silly as this is probably not all that bad

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Speaker 2: for you when you consider everything people are doing in

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Speaker 2: a thousand a d or whatever. Right, Like, if you

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Speaker 2: if a couple of times a year you're shot gunning

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Speaker 2: some tobacco, that's not going to be what kills you.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, your life expectancy isn't long enough.

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Speaker 5: For that to be the thing that kills you in

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Speaker 5: most cases, right, Yeah, yeah, one of the other thousand

284
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Speaker 5: things that's going to kill you that we've eliminated now

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Speaker 5: is going to kill you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's also worth noting that there were a

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Speaker 2: number of health uses of tobacco. It was probably the

288
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Speaker 2: first effective insect repellent. One of those combinations of it

289
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Speaker 2: was to just rub it all over your skin because

290
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Speaker 2: tobacco's coated in an oil like that is. Bugs don't

291
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Speaker 2: it kills bugs like? They don't, They don't like I mean,

292
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Speaker 2: obviously there are specific bugs that do feed on tobacco,

293
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Speaker 2: but for the most part, it keeps insects away. So

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Speaker 2: people would ub it on themselves that or they would

295
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Speaker 2: also bathe in the smoke before like going in and

296
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Speaker 2: hunting in the bush and stuff, in order to keep

297
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Speaker 2: bugs off of them. It could work as a tranquilizer.

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Speaker 2: It was used to help put people to sleep. One

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Speaker 2: of the things that I tried for my book was

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Speaker 2: mixing it with urine and garlic in order to create

301
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Speaker 2: an emetic and like a constipation remedy, and it does

302
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Speaker 2: work for that. I don't recommend following that up, but

303
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:39,000
Speaker 2: it does do what it says it was also so

304
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Speaker 2: there were a number of uses for Native Americans of

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Speaker 2: tobacco that absolutely work in a medical context. There were

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Speaker 2: also some that did not. For example, it was often

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Speaker 2: given to people as a treatment for asthma. Tobacco does

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Speaker 2: not help with asthma.

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Speaker 7: Yeah you don't, but yeah, that's not a thing that

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Speaker 7: when like it's just you know, that's where not like

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Speaker 7: that historically separated from people smoking to clear the lungs.

312
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Speaker 2: Right exactly. And it's also some of the time, a

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Speaker 2: lot of the times when these indigenous people would have

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Speaker 2: been taking tobacco to clear up their asthma, it might

315
00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:17,040
Speaker 2: not have been smoked as often as it was like

316
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Speaker 2: taken as a tea. And this can also be toxic.

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Speaker 2: People die. One of the things like ayahuasca ceremonies are

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Speaker 2: very famous in the West. Now, one of the things

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Speaker 2: that some groups do in their ceremonies is they precede

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Speaker 2: the ayahuasca with the tobacco tea. And there's a couple

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Speaker 2: of cases of people dying in ayahuasca ceremonies. Now, I

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Speaker 2: don't know if that's because the tea is just always

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Speaker 2: dangerous or because these specific folks that were doing it

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Speaker 2: were kind of like grifters and didn't know what they

325
00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,360
Speaker 2: were doing, weren't actually doing it the traditional way. I'm

326
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Speaker 2: not sure if that information exists properly, but this is

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Speaker 2: another way people would take it as a tea, which

328
00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,880
Speaker 2: don't don't take tobacco. It's actually pretty easy to kill

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Speaker 2: yourself by ingesting tobacco. Please don't do that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I know every now and again, like a pet

331
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Speaker 5: will eat a bunch of cigarettes.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and and kill.

333
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Speaker 2: The shit out of you. It's extremely deadly tobacco. But

334
00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,080
Speaker 2: you know, interesting plant. So the Portuguese were the first

335
00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:13,639
Speaker 2: Europeans to begin cultivating tobacco for export to Europe. In

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Speaker 2: fifteen sixty four, a Royal Navy captain brought the leaf

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00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,920
Speaker 2: to Ingoland, and despite early opposition from people who considered

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00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,000
Speaker 2: it a filthy, foul drug for foreigners, it took off

339
00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:24,359
Speaker 2: their like wildfire.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I just love that. Like the immediate British or

341
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Speaker 4: English response.

342
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Speaker 5: Was just like to start was then a phobia and

343
00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:35,080
Speaker 5: then move along from there and work out of this

344
00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:37,160
Speaker 5: what drug is going to have become a pitcher part

345
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Speaker 5: of all of our lives?

346
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Speaker 2: And in Europe. In the UK, the story with tobacco

347
00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:44,480
Speaker 2: was similar to the story with coffee, and that a

348
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:46,919
Speaker 2: bunch of like weirdo Christians are like, this is a

349
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,000
Speaker 2: heathen drug, we shouldn't do it. And then some king

350
00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:52,439
Speaker 2: will like pick up a cigarette or drink some coffee

351
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Speaker 2: and be like, oh, yeah, this shit's actually pretty dope.

352
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:56,880
Speaker 2: You know what, I think. We're fine with tobacco.

353
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Speaker 4: Yeah.

354
00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:01,119
Speaker 2: In coffee's case was literally Pope being like, oh, this

355
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,240
Speaker 2: stuff rules, you know what. I'm just gonna baptize it.

356
00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:05,840
Speaker 2: Just gonna baptize coffee now Christians can have it.

357
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Speaker 5: And then God changed his mind just like that. Yeah,

358
00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:12,000
Speaker 5: omnip being amazing stuff.

359
00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:14,520
Speaker 2: It would be I would give a lot of kudos

360
00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:17,119
Speaker 2: to the Pope if he just baptized marijuana so that

361
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,720
Speaker 2: Catholics could sue the federal government for restricting it.

362
00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:22,880
Speaker 4: Just imagining him doing fentanyl, like.

363
00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,000
Speaker 2: The Pope bless ues fitnyl to protect the kids.

364
00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:28,840
Speaker 4: Yuck, he's dropped it in the.

365
00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:33,639
Speaker 2: Fund to God says, this ship's red. You baby is

366
00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,600
Speaker 2: going to have a rough one. Now put some fitanyl

367
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,480
Speaker 2: in the baptismal fought. Yeah, no, you're gonna want to

368
00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,200
Speaker 2: give them some narcan, they're not gonna have a good time.

369
00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:47,520
Speaker 8: Yeah, that's what we call it the narth acts because

370
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,960
Speaker 8: that was a that was a church joke for you

371
00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:56,040
Speaker 8: you kids anyway, Uh yeah, yeah.

372
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,960
Speaker 2: So the English start smoking tobacco. Uh it gets cold

373
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,119
Speaker 2: ctivated in the Jamestown settlement in the seventeenth century, and

374
00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:05,880
Speaker 2: by the seventeen thirties, the English colonies in the Virginia

375
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,040
Speaker 2: had tobacco factories that were manufacturing significant quantities of the stuff,

376
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,199
Speaker 2: mostly as snuff, which was either inhaled or shoot. That

377
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:17,280
Speaker 2: is the predominant way to consume tobacco in the kind

378
00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,240
Speaker 2: of the early period of colonization of the Americas.

379
00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:23,840
Speaker 5: Was it like because you see pictures of them sometimes

380
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,400
Speaker 5: and they got the old timey pipe, right, the long

381
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:28,040
Speaker 5: pipe with a little bowlp yep.

382
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,040
Speaker 4: Yeah. Is that like a class thing?

383
00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,639
Speaker 5: Is that like I can afford to have a pipe

384
00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:33,879
Speaker 5: in your conus?

385
00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:38,320
Speaker 2: Some of its class cigars are generally like more expensive.

386
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,920
Speaker 2: Snuff is very cheap. The other thing though, is that

387
00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:45,560
Speaker 2: again not easy to get access to stuff to light

388
00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,000
Speaker 2: a pipe or to light a cigar. So if you're

389
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,040
Speaker 2: smoking a pipe or a cigar, you're probably in your

390
00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,240
Speaker 2: home right, so you know, the beginning of the day

391
00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:54,040
Speaker 2: or the end of the day, or maybe in like

392
00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,520
Speaker 2: the midday or for a meal, you could have a smoke,

393
00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,080
Speaker 2: but it's not convenient. You can't just light a pipe

394
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:00,600
Speaker 2: when you're out in the field because like you don't

395
00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:02,280
Speaker 2: just have a thing that's on fire with you at

396
00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:07,480
Speaker 2: all times. But you can take snuff anytime of day.

397
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:13,360
Speaker 5: Man, it's addictive, yeah, yeah, extremely, and it's incredibly addictive.

398
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,440
Speaker 2: So all of the colonizing powers competed for a share

399
00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:21,800
Speaker 2: of the emerging global tobacco market. And again it's incredibly addictive,

400
00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:25,080
Speaker 2: so there's enough interest very quickly to spur rapid innovation

401
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,000
Speaker 2: in the field. In eighteen forty three, a French company,

402
00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,800
Speaker 2: given a monopoly over tobacco by King Louis the fourteenth,

403
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:35,560
Speaker 2: starts manufacturing the very first close to modern cigarettes. Now

404
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:39,080
Speaker 2: people have been smoking again, when Columbus lends up, they

405
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,440
Speaker 2: see people like wrapping shit in corn cobs. Those are

406
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,240
Speaker 2: like for a couple of centuries, that's how you smoke

407
00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,640
Speaker 2: a cigarette. You get a corn cob. Sometimes you get

408
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,760
Speaker 2: like old paper, like newspaper, like just kind of whatever

409
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,520
Speaker 2: papery thing you can fill it with tobacco and smoke it,

410
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:52,760
Speaker 2: you know.

411
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:58,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's the frenchship ankle was and have never.

412
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:02,720
Speaker 2: Changed, the French gotts, which are which are still the

413
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:04,520
Speaker 2: worst cigarettes on the market.

414
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,520
Speaker 4: They're still smoking something close to modern cigarettes today.

415
00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:11,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was. Those were the most common cigarettes we

416
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:13,879
Speaker 2: smoked in Syria. And it was like the galas that

417
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,520
Speaker 2: you couldn't sell in France because the tobacco was too

418
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:23,840
Speaker 2: low grade. Yeah, God, what a horrible cigarette. Yeah, well

419
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,160
Speaker 2: it's yeah, it's yeah everywhere. I just have a lot

420
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:31,200
Speaker 2: of memories of like bike racing in France and having

421
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,159
Speaker 2: to go in to sign on to these races, and

422
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,159
Speaker 2: like you walk in and you just like it's like

423
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,280
Speaker 2: like they used to do in nightclubs with the smoke machine,

424
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 2: you know, just like yeah, yeah, yeah, Like you are

425
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 2: also enough to experience like smoking inside in bars, which

426
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:45,280
Speaker 2: isn't a thing anymore.

427
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:46,920
Speaker 5: And you go and you come out and you're like

428
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 5: that was good for me. And then you see the

429
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:50,520
Speaker 5: guy who is never going to kick your ass in

430
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:52,320
Speaker 5: the race, or it's after the race and the guy

431
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,040
Speaker 5: who's just won the race is having a fucking cigarette,

432
00:21:55,520 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 5: and just remember being one of the most experiences. Yeah,

433
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 5: he's here to the pharmaceutical industry, is what he is.

434
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 2: Look, kids, if you want to know what it's like

435
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 2: to walk around in a world where people smoke indoors

436
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:14,440
Speaker 2: constantly and in all places, there's an option. Fly to Serbia.

437
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,879
Speaker 2: Belgrade will Belgrade will teach you what the seventies was like.

438
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:21,439
Speaker 4: Waste one.

439
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, in a number of ways you'll learn about the seventies.

440
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:29,399
Speaker 5: In Belgrade, banging hackcuts, go to bell Man.

441
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 2: Oh, the tracksuits there are unreal.

442
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:34,240
Speaker 4: That's coming back.

443
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,960
Speaker 2: There's a cycle again when we're talking about what actually

444
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:44,159
Speaker 2: is like a culturally beautiful use for cigarettes. Squatting in

445
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,240
Speaker 2: a field with your buddies in a tracksuit and smoking.

446
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 4: God, it's incredible culture experience.

447
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 2: Burning through a pack of a knockoff Marlboroughs that have

448
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 2: two extra ease in them.

449
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 5: It doesn't have the l it's just a you know what.

450
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 2: You know who else sells discount cigarettes?

451
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 4: Is it? Sophie? Is that what Sophie does? Sophie.

452
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 2: If you meet Sophie behind the main gym building after

453
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 2: lunch or after classes, let out, She's always got a

454
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,119
Speaker 2: couple of extra packs on hand and she'll sell you.

455
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,160
Speaker 1: Lucy's what what grade am I in? What school? Why

456
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:24,160
Speaker 1: am I out of school?

457
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 2: Normal age?

458
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 1: I don't like the association, and.

459
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, she's still going there every day.

460
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,119
Speaker 2: Well, that we don't have, we can't fund our podcast.

461
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 1: For some reason, also reflects on you, so we.

462
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 2: Ask you to stop. But here we are, Sophie. Let's

463
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,439
Speaker 2: let let's be honest with ourselves. If I were to

464
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,160
Speaker 2: get caught selling loose cigarettes to children behind a high school,

465
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 2: it would only increase my popularity.

466
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 4: Do not take.

467
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 2: Un I'm trying to get I'm trying to get them

468
00:23:55,040 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 2: off the Jewels anti action. I've got a Joe Camel

469
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:04,719
Speaker 2: tattoo on my chest.

470
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 1: Oh my god, let's.

471
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 9: Let's just add.

472
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm going to spend this whole episode trying not

473
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 5: to say what is a homophobic slur in this country?

474
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 6: By the way, we're back and James is discussing how

475
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,879
Speaker 6: difficult it is to talk about cigarettes as a British

476
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 6: person without saying something that's offensive.

477
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,360
Speaker 4: That's right. Yeah, there's a word that we use in Britain. Cigarettes.

478
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,680
Speaker 5: So American people used to be horrible to gay people

479
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 5: and I'm not going to use it. It's very difficult

480
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 5: for me.

481
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 2: So it is now it doesn't not. I mean, I

482
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 2: think the slur comes from the harmless term, which also

483
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 2: if you read JR or token, you will see that

484
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 2: word used constantly in its original meaning.

485
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 4: It is a little bit off footing sometimes.

486
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 5: But then the people I grew up well Exatinly where

487
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 5: my grandmother lived, right in rural Devon was very like

488
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 5: people still use the valdai.

489
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, but yeah, that that word.

490
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,679
Speaker 5: Would be used to describe like a small it's a

491
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 5: type of food, right, there's a food that uses that word,

492
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 5: but also like a small bundle of.

493
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,399
Speaker 2: Hay, a bundle of sticks or whatever.

494
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, any package, and I think get one.

495
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 4: You can call it your Amazon word.

496
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's it's anyway whatever language. So it's amazing,

497
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:40,120
Speaker 2: so uh yeah all yeah. So in the fourteenth or Louis,

498
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 2: the fourteenth gives the first French company a monopoly over

499
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 2: tobacco production and they start manufacturing cigarettes, which all have

500
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,439
Speaker 2: to be handled at this point. But this is the

501
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:54,400
Speaker 2: first time that like a company is selling people cigarettes

502
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 2: pretty much the first time that a company is selling

503
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 2: like a large company is trying to make cigarettes into

504
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 2: like a major business. Prior to this, if you bought cigarettes,

505
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 2: most people who smoked cigarettes were like poor people, and

506
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 2: you would just you would have a bag of tobacco

507
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,199
Speaker 2: and you'd wrap it and shit right, or you know,

508
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 2: rolling papers even aren't aren't a thing that you could

509
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 2: just go out and get. The other way you would

510
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 2: get it is you would go to a tobacconist who

511
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:20,119
Speaker 2: has someone roll them and you would buy them. Cigarettes

512
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,879
Speaker 2: were generally, because of this, the least favorite method of

513
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 2: tobacco consumption. They were seen as the thing that like

514
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 2: homeless people smoked, because the most common way to smoke

515
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 2: cigarettes was to like go outside of a place where

516
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 2: people with more money had been hanging out, like a bar,

517
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,719
Speaker 2: and pick up the cigarette, the cigar butts and like

518
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,120
Speaker 2: then roll them into a cigarette read.

519
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 4: And it came out.

520
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 6: Then, man, it is the worst smoke I can imagine.

521
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that is bleak.

522
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, but my god, that guy. The only person

523
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 2: today who could smoke on the level of a smoker

524
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:03,640
Speaker 2: back then would be maybe Rudy Giuliani. You gotta give him,

525
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,919
Speaker 2: he's one of these weirdos. Cigars. You don't inhale a

526
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 2: cigar unless your specific kind of cigar smoker who believes

527
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 2: that everyone else is wrong by not inhaling their cigars.

528
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 2: I forget what they call themselves, but Rudy is one

529
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 2: of them. He's an inhaler. He takes it all in. Baby.

530
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:25,400
Speaker 2: I think cancer is just repudiated by him. He's refused.

531
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 2: That's gonna be bad for the cancer brand.

532
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 1: Man.

533
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't want to get.

534
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 2: Mixed up with Juliani. So cigarettes start to get popular

535
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 2: with Europeans during hour right after the Crimean War when

536
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 2: soldiers you know who, returned, because the Crimean War is

537
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,639
Speaker 2: a lot of it's in areas kind of a budding

538
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 2: in around Turkey, and so they encounter Turkish cigarettes. And

539
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 2: the Turks have been smoking cigarettes and making cigarettes for

540
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 2: a bit longer, and they decide they like the Turkish

541
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 2: tobacco is good and it's milder than the stuff that

542
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 2: they had add had access to. In eighteen fifty six,

543
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 2: one veteran of the war opens London's first cigarette factory,

544
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 2: which is called Sweet Threes. He has joined a few

545
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 2: years later by another English entrepreneur who creates the second

546
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 2: major cigarette factory in London. And this guy's name is

547
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,880
Speaker 2: Philip Morris. Oh wow, so yeah, that's where that comes from.

548
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 5: It yeah he is.

549
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, there he is old Philip Boris. Yeah, a man

550
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 2: with a body count that would rival fucking Hitler. So

551
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 2: at this point, all cigarettes are still rolled by hand.

552
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 2: Most are still sold by small retailers. But then the

553
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 2: Civil War happens in the United States, and right after

554
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 2: the Civil War things start to change. And I'm going

555
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 2: to quote now from a write up in the Journal

556
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 2: of Antiques. Seeing an opportunity in the emerging market for cigarettes,

557
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 2: tobacco man F. S. Kenny began cigarette production in New

558
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 2: York City, as well as a factory in Richmond, Virginia,

559
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 2: turning out brands with names like Full Dress, Sweet Caporal, Kenny,

560
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 2: Straight Cut, and Sportsman's Corporeal. Using similar blinds. Kenny's chief

561
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 2: competitor in the New York market was Good Winning Company,

562
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 2: which sold nationally advertised cigarettes with folksy sounding brand names

563
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 2: such as Old Judge, Canvas Black, and Welcome. Firms became

564
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 2: known as the Big Six of the cigarette industry by

565
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 2: the eighteen seventies, as they gained control of seventy five

566
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 2: percent of national sales. There were, of course, hundreds of

567
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 2: smaller cigarette firms operating out of backroom shops in most

568
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 2: major northern cities, but their distribution capabilities were usually very limited.

569
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 2: I love old cigarette brand names. I would I would

570
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 2: smoke Old Judge. I think i'd have been an old

571
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 2: Judge man. Well, yeah, there was one that was particularly

572
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 2: great old. It was one of them called old Black.

573
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 2: Uh no, there's Old Judge canvas back and.

574
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,239
Speaker 5: Well, okay, I thought it was canvas black, like what

575
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 5: it would do due to the old lungs. For the yeah, welcome,

576
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 5: I think I just make a welcome cigarettember welcome. Yeah,

577
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 5: you get one on your pillow when you go into

578
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 5: a hotel room. That's the kind of vibe that has.

579
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. It reminds me that that old Bill Hicks bet

580
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 2: when he's like, I'm love that they've put the warning

581
00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 2: labels on the cigarettes. Lets me know which ones to

582
00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 2: a void. I'm not gonna buy the lung cancer cigarettes

583
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 2: low birth weights though. Give me one of that. So

584
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 2: tobacco obviously is bad for you. It caused problems for

585
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 2: people because it's never good for you to smoke, or

586
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 2: especially on a regular basis, as people are increasingly doing

587
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 2: in this period. But the harms are still minimal and

588
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 2: they're pretty much impossible to see on a wide basis. Right,

589
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 2: very few people are able to smoke regularly throughout their

590
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 2: day for one thing. For another thing. You know, there's

591
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 2: there's not good matches the ones that people do have

592
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 2: matches in this period, but they're phosphorus based and they're

593
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 2: incredibly dangerous. It's like carrying a flash bang in your pocket.

594
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 2: I've seen no issue with that. I think that's amazing. Yeah,

595
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 2: that's a good idea. Yeah, I just want to whip

596
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 2: off a rot of phosphorus.

597
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 4: Great. Is it like literally like like white phosphorus, Like.

598
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know if it's like white phosphorus,

599
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 2: but yeah, I mean it's it's like a phosphorus, like

600
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 2: you grind up a bunch of foss f us and

601
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 2: then you strike it.

602
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 8: I think, amazing, falling over and then yeah.

603
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 4: Yeah.

604
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 2: And of course your beard oil and hair oil is

605
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 2: all alcohol and petroleum based. Your shirt has been washed

606
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 2: in pure ghastly, so you just gotch immediately on fire.

607
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, cigarettes will kill you, but not in the

608
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 4: way you're expecting.

609
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. This is the period in which like spontaneous human

610
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 2: combustion starts to be a thing. And it's because everything

611
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 2: is flammable and everybody's carrying around fire bombs in their pockets. Yeah,

612
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 2: but yeah, again, as as much as we joke about it, heart,

613
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 2: it's if you were to tell someone's cigarettes are bad,

614
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 2: Like that's pretty obvious if you're hanging out with someone

615
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 2: today who was a smoker, because smoker's cough, right, and like,

616
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 2: you know, you joke about it if you're a smoker, like, yeah,

617
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 2: you know it's killing me whatever smoking cigarette, it's not

618
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 2: hard to be like put two and two together, like, oh,

619
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 2: this is bad for me. It wouldn't have been as

620
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 2: obvious back then. For one thing, yeah, smoker's cough. But

621
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 2: also you know who else coughs is people who live

622
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 2: in dense cities where the main method of transportation is horses.

623
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 2: And so there are okay, so New York City. The

624
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 2: most famous style of houses in New York City, they

625
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 2: have these big tall porches, right that are like four

626
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 2: or five or six feet off the ground. Those big

627
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 2: porches that New York and other East Coast cities have

628
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,239
Speaker 2: exist because there would be so much shit in the

629
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 2: main streets that when it rained, there would be rivers

630
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 2: of feces and rotting carcasses of animals rush, and you

631
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 2: didn't want it to get near lake your house.

632
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 4: So you could just sit there and watch the sling by.

633
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 2: If somebody, if people are walking around coughing and looking sick,

634
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 2: your first guest isn't going to be it's probably the cigarettes.

635
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 4: A lot of place.

636
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 2: It really was a nightmare to be alive.

637
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, Jesus Christ, I'm surprised of the species we made

638
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 5: it cost that.

639
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 2: It's it's striking, But you don't have to make it

640
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 2: very long to produce a bunch of kids and then

641
00:32:58,000 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 2: leave them fatherless.

642
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 4: That's true. As you floaged off down the.

643
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 2: Let's just throw your cup corpse in the shit river

644
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 2: and the cycle continues.

645
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a circle of life.

646
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 2: Cigarettes in the eighteen seventies were still a novelty to

647
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 2: most smokers. Less than two percent of people who smoked

648
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 2: used cigarettes. Again, the most common method of tobacco consumption

649
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:21,719
Speaker 2: is not even smoking at all, but it was chewing

650
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 2: what was called plug tobacco, and it was into this

651
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 2: world and this market. Then a man named James Buchanan

652
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 2: Duke stepped in the nineteen or in the eighteen eighties.

653
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 2: Duke had been born on December twenty third, eighteen fifty

654
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 2: six near Durham, North Carolina, and his father was the

655
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 2: owner of a small tobacco company, which was eventually named W.

656
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,959
Speaker 2: Duke and Sons Company or W. Duke Sons in Company.

657
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 2: Duke watched in eighteen seventy three as a powerful depression

658
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 2: hit the United States and temporarily cigarettes swelled in popularity

659
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 2: because the urban poor could afford cigarettes, right, So that

660
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 2: was you know, when they started to take off, and

661
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 2: he looks at the being an intelligent capitalist, He's like,

662
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 2: we're probably going to continue to have horrible economic crashes

663
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 2: because it seems like the system is designed to do

664
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 2: this every like five to ten years. So I bet

665
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 2: cigarettes have a bright future ahead of them if I

666
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:18,760
Speaker 2: can find a way an amazing cheaper Yeah.

667
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 5: People start expecting them more in times of depression because

668
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 5: they they didn't have food and they wanted to not

669
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 5: be hungry.

670
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 2: They wanted to not be hungry. It's also just like

671
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 2: one of the few things you can afford, period, if

672
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,919
Speaker 2: you're poor is a cigarette. Because they're they're cheap, They're

673
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 2: cheaper than food in a lot of cases, they're certainly

674
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 2: the cheapest method of getting tobacco. They're cheaper than drinking.

675
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 2: It's just like it's a little comfort that you can

676
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 2: have if you're a fucking tramp living on the street

677
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 2: in the eighteen seventies, because there's there's not a whole

678
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 2: lot of other things for you, but the cigarette is there.

679
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 4: Wait, the working man's friend, isn't it.

680
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 2: It is the working man. Look again, if you're on

681
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 2: the street in the eighteen seventies, they are risks of

682
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 2: a cigarette, or the least of certain you might.

683
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 4: Get concussed by floating to.

684
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the shit rivers, the main problem you've got

685
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 2: to deal with.

686
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 4: He's drowning in a river of wholeseshit.

687
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'd be smoking whatever. Of course, of course they

688
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 5: invented crack beyond that too.

689
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, you want to get out of that situation as

690
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:22,280
Speaker 2: quickly as possible.

691
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, so a godsent.

692
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,320
Speaker 2: Absolutely so. Duke at this point in time, his brothers

693
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 2: and his father were like locked into this vicious competition

694
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 2: with Bull Durham Tobacco, which was run by a guy

695
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 2: named W. T. Blackwell and was like the big tobacco

696
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,280
Speaker 2: producer of the day. Duke saw this as a pointless

697
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 2: fight because they're fighting over plug tobacco. He knew that

698
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 2: the future of the industry was not in plug tobacco,

699
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 2: it was producing something convenient and cheap for urban poor people.

700
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 2: In eighteen eighty two, his company had just ten cigarette

701
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 2: rollers on the line, and so these are individual people.

702
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 2: Cigarettes are made like cigars, by random by just like

703
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 2: people who know how to do it. The first thing

704
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 2: he did was add fifty more rollers, which still put

705
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 2: him well behind the Allen and Ginter factory up in Richmond,

706
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 2: which employed four hundred and fifty female cigarette rollers. But

707
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,720
Speaker 2: when a New York City cigarette factory went on strike,

708
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,320
Speaker 2: Duke convinced one hundred and twenty five of their workers

709
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 2: to move down to Durham in eighteen eighty three, offering

710
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 2: to pay their moving expenses and giving them the highest

711
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 2: wages in the industry. This was a good deal for

712
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:23,800
Speaker 2: these people for a while. But if you know anything

713
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 2: about capitalists, you know Duke has no desire to create

714
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 2: well paid jobs for laborers. These people are a stopgap.

715
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,320
Speaker 2: He's thinking like uber here, right, I want to corner

716
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 2: the market and then find a way to get the

717
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 2: human beings out of it, to replace them with machines.

718
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,359
Speaker 4: No, he's not saying he's working freebit it.

719
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 2: Works a lot better for cigarettes than it does for Uber.

720
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 2: Turns out this is actually a pretty reasonable business plan

721
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 2: for cigarettes.

722
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 5: Both of them will kill you, but it's a self

723
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 5: driving cause, and a cigarettes get his self driving cass

724
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 5: will do it fasten.

725
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, the cigarettes will do it a little more ethically.

726
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 2: Though he was in the his goal was again he

727
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:04,800
Speaker 2: wanted to make He wants to make the most profitable

728
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 2: tobacco company in the world, and the way to do

729
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 2: that is to rat fuck your laborers. For now though

730
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 2: he needed them, and by eighteen eighty five he had

731
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 2: about seven hundred hand rollers in two factories. Most of

732
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 2: these are again a young women. This is reasonably well

733
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,800
Speaker 2: paying work for young women. He's got a quality control

734
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 2: team that checks the work. So they're trying to put

735
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,720
Speaker 2: out like as uniform a product as possible. But that's

736
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 2: not really easy to do. And everyone in the industry

737
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 2: making cigarettes knows it's kind of slowly expanding, and they

738
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 2: know that we can make these a lot cheaper and

739
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 2: a lot more profitable for us if we can replace

740
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 2: the human beings with machine rollers. So a couple of

741
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,240
Speaker 2: companies actually put out a bounty in order to produce

742
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,360
Speaker 2: a machine roller. And I'm going to quote what comes

743
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,800
Speaker 2: next from that write up from the Journal of Antiques.

744
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 2: A young man named James Bosnak approached Duke with a

745
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 2: cigarette making machine he had invented. The young inventor had

746
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 2: previously gone to the now Big four companies, but had

747
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 2: been turned down because his machine was prone to break down,

748
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 2: plus there was a belief that consumers would never accept

749
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 2: a machine made cigarette. Duke put top mechanics to work,

750
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 2: iiring out the bugs in the Bonzack machine, and signed

751
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 2: a deal with the inventor. During his first year of production,

752
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 2: using his team of important hand rollers, Duke turned out

753
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,720
Speaker 2: nine point eight million cigarettes. In contrast, using the Bonsack

754
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 2: machines enabled him to produce seven hundred and forty four

755
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 2: million cigarettes in eighteen eighty eight. So eighteen eighty one,

756
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 2: nine point eight million cigarettes, he gets the Bonsack machine

757
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:34,280
Speaker 2: seven hundred and forty four million. That is a snick

758
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 2: at significant increase in production.

759
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 5: That right there as a turning point. Huh, that's going

760
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 5: to change a few things.

761
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,760
Speaker 2: So he's making a lot of cigarettes now, which is great.

762
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 2: He's able to make them half as expensive as they

763
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 2: were before, and he's able to, like number one, sell

764
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 2: them for cheaper and also make a lot more profit

765
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:57,399
Speaker 2: for per cigarette. But there's problem, which is that only

766
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 2: about two percent of Americans who smoke smokes itigarettes, and

767
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 2: so the fact that he's making seven hundred and thirty

768
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 2: million more cigarettes per year means that he's got a

769
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:09,360
Speaker 2: lot of cigarettes he can't sell because there's just not

770
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 2: that many smokers out there. So this is a this

771
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 2: is a problem for Old Duke, and Duke realizes that, like,

772
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 2: if he's going to make this thing profitable, what he's

773
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 2: going to have to do is create demand for cigarettes.

774
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 2: He's going to have to convince Americans that they actually

775
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 2: want not just to smoke cigarettes, but to smoke a

776
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 2: shitload of them. Because one of the things that becomes

777
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 2: clear is like, well, we went from nine point eight

778
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 2: million is seven hundred and forty four million for nothing.

779
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 2: We could make billions of these year. This wouldn't be

780
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 2: a problem at all. We just need that many smokers

781
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 2: to exist. So that's a difficult task, right, Old Duke

782
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:51,240
Speaker 2: is going to need to actually like create a hunger

783
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 2: for billions of cigarettes in the world in order to

784
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 2: make this payoff. And that's exactly what he does next.

785
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 5: Great, yeah, so wonderful world of tobacco marketing.

786
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 2: Yes, it's that's what we're that's what we're building towards here.

787
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:12,800
Speaker 2: So one of the things that happens when Duke starts

788
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 2: manufacturing his cigarettes is that suddenly no corporation can afford

789
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 2: to sell cigarettes without rolling them on a Bonzac machine.

790
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 2: It just is so much more efficient. And because Duke

791
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 2: hand helped fix the Bonzac machines, he owns part of

792
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,479
Speaker 2: the patent effectively, So one of the ways he's making

793
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 2: money is that everyone who's making cigarettes is giving money

794
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 2: to Duke. He Also, one of the things he does

795
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,360
Speaker 2: that's smart is in order to kind of everyone's worried, Okay,

796
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 2: are people not gonna want to smoke cigarettes that are

797
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 2: rolled by machine? Duke starts bragging that his cigarettes or

798
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 2: machine rolled. He puts it on the packages as like

799
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 2: a way of like, just what if we just trying

800
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 2: to convince people that machine rolled is better than handwriting.

801
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 2: It's cleaner, it's more hygienic, it's more modern, right, all

802
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 2: of which is technically true. The next I want to

803
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,360
Speaker 2: quote from a book called The Cigarette Century by Alan Brandt.

804
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,760
Speaker 2: By eighteen eighty four, while his competitors were still hesitating,

805
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,760
Speaker 2: Duke had installed two Bonzack machines in his Durrow factory.

806
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 2: A year later, after experimenting to improve the machine's performance,

807
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 2: Duke signed a secret contract in which he agreed that

808
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 2: he would produce all his cigarettes with the Bonzac machine.

809
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,800
Speaker 2: In return, Bonzac reduced Duke's royalties to twenty cents per thousand.

810
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 2: Duke and Bonzac soon reached a further agreement guaranteeing Duke

811
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 2: of twenty five percent discount on royalties against all other manufacturers. Also,

812
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 2: Duke shrewdly hired one of Bonzac's disgruntled mechanics, William Thomas O'Brien,

813
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 2: to operate his machines, assuring fewer breakdowns than his competition.

814
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 2: By June eighteen eighty six, O'Brien was meticulously maintaining ten machines.

815
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,800
Speaker 2: Duke placed a heavy emphasis on efficiency and continuous production.

816
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:43,320
Speaker 2: The lessons he learned to developing the mass production of

817
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 2: cigarettes he would soon apply more broadly to industrial organization.

818
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 2: By becoming Bonzak's premier customer, Duke secured essential control over

819
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 2: its technology and turned Bonzac's patent into a powerful competitive advantage.

820
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 2: It was increasingly common for inventors to relinquish their patents

821
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 2: to corporations. Duke understood the control of the bonsacked patent

822
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 2: through his secret discounted licensing agreement was a critical lever

823
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 2: in dominating the cigarette trade. His deal with Bonzac reflected

824
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:10,800
Speaker 2: an important change in the character of the patent system

825
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 2: from a legal mechanism protecting independent inventors to one that

826
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 2: would protect large and powerful corporations. Duke is, what he's

827
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 2: done here is in the modern usage of patents corporations

828
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 2: for corporate advantage. Right, Like, everyone who is who, like

829
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 2: every business leader who follows in any kind of industry

830
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 2: is going to copy.

831
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, man, that might be one of the things

832
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 4: that's killed more people than.

833
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 2: Cigarettes, right Like, yeah, yeah, because a lot of medical

834
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 2: patents and stuff that works on the same fucking idea,

835
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:39,279
Speaker 2: you know.

836
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, nearly every nearly every drug is patented.

837
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 2: And of course he's not trying to do anything evil

838
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:54,759
Speaker 2: with it. He just wants everyone to smoke cigarettes, perfectly, perfectly, morally, uncomplicated, ironically.

839
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 5: I just we talked about it on the episode of

840
00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:01,280
Speaker 5: It Could Happen Here on Monday. But UCLA is pursuing

841
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 5: an IP case in India about a prostate counter drug

842
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 5: called egg Standy, which they're trying to stop a generic production,

843
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 5: a cheaper generic production of But I'm just imagining the

844
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 5: old handshake mean between CLA and Duke here and giving

845
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:16,760
Speaker 5: people king service. The thing.

846
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:19,280
Speaker 4: Coming together.

847
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 2: That's beautiful. So the Bonzac machine quickly replaced human rollers

848
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,320
Speaker 2: who left the cigarette industry to roll cigars, which is

849
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 2: the only form of tobacco that's going to prove immune

850
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,359
Speaker 2: to the corporate age that Duke is ushering in. Through

851
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 2: the eighteen eighties and eighteen nineties, cigarette smoking increased, and

852
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 2: the size of a pack doubled from ten to twenty,

853
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 2: taking advantage of how easy it was to smoke.

854
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:40,399
Speaker 4: Now.

855
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 2: The first proper matchbooks, invented in the early twentieth century

856
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 2: helped spur adoption, but by nineteen hundred, still less than

857
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 2: two percent of tobacco consumers are smoking cigarettes. Now, Duke

858
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 2: knows that his dream of selling cigarettes to the world

859
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 2: is not going to work if he can't convince Americans

860
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 2: that they wanted to smoke, and that they wanted to

861
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:00,040
Speaker 2: smoke as a habit. So he set out to do

862
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 2: something no one had ever really done before, which was

863
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 2: create a market for a product using advertising. Obviously, merchants

864
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 2: since time immemorial had advertised their wares and attempted to

865
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 2: set themselves apart from the competition. But what Duke is

866
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,399
Speaker 2: doing is new. Duke is trying to convince people they

867
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 2: want to do something they haven't done that that's not

868
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 2: really been a thing in capitalism up to this point.

869
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 2: It's one thing to be like, hey, I'm Samuel Colt.

870
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 2: I've invented a better handgun like you want. If you

871
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 2: want a handgun, you want a handgun. My job with

872
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 2: my marketing is is to convince you mind's the best, right,

873
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 2: But you're not convincing people well now I need a gun, right,

874
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 2: like they decide they need a gun because it's the

875
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 2: fucking eighteen eighties or what fucking Duke is like. These

876
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 2: people are fine without cigarettes. That's this isn't a problem.

877
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 2: There's not a need that I'm trying to serve here.

878
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 2: I have to create it. And one of the first

879
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 2: plays he's going to do this is really quite innovative

880
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:58,800
Speaker 2: and it ends in a surprising place. So in the

881
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 2: late eighteen eighties, for much tradesmen had set to making stiff,

882
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 2: colorful cards to advertise their businesses. These cards often featured

883
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 2: illustrations of women generally wearing very little clothing, or sports heroes,

884
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 2: or like historical landmarks to make them collectible and thus

885
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 2: give individual people a reason to keep a business card

886
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 2: in their possession. Now we don't know where Duke first

887
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,760
Speaker 2: heard about this phenomenon, but starting in the eighteen eighties,

888
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,240
Speaker 2: he had a print shop installed in his Durham factory

889
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 2: that could make color prints. At first, he printed out

890
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 2: the standard advertisements and coupons that most businessmen used, but

891
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 2: soon he hit upon an idea and I'm going to

892
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 2: quote from Duke University here, with each pack of cigarettes,

893
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 2: a small cardboard insert was added to stiff in the box.

894
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,320
Speaker 2: Duke employed a little imagination and turned these simple workhourses

895
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 2: into a powerful marketing tool by printing the brand name

896
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:49,879
Speaker 2: of the cigarettes along with a picture that was part

897
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 2: of a larger series in which was meant to be collected.

898
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 2: Series of birds, flags, civil war generals, and baseball players

899
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 2: were employed frequently with historical or educational information on them.

900
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 2: Photographs of actresses, women placed in a variety of poses,

901
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 2: and often rather revealing costumes for the time were also

902
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 2: used on the insert cards and exceeded all expectations and

903
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 2: their popularity along the public. So a lot of these

904
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 2: trading cards, and these are the first trading cards, are

905
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 2: outright pornographic, at least by nineteenth century standards, and there

906
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 2: are outcries against the practice because the people who want

907
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:27,320
Speaker 2: them the most are young boys. Are kids, right, kids

908
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 2: start smoking to collect trading cards. That's what how juvenile

909
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 2: smoking starts at the United States. Great They want the

910
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 2: collect baseball cards and to do so they have to

911
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 2: buy packs of cigarettes. And this works like gang. It

912
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:46,280
Speaker 2: increases cigarette sales massively. It's a really successful ad campaign.

913
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:48,800
Speaker 2: But it also leads to a wave of young cigarette

914
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 2: addicts who are also getting into porn, which is difficult

915
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 2: for people to accept. Busy bodies of the day to accept.

916
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,479
Speaker 2: One of those busy bodies included Duke's father, who wrote

917
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:01,360
Speaker 2: this letter to his son in eighteen ninety four. My

918
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:03,880
Speaker 2: dear son, I have received the enclosed letter from the

919
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 2: Reverend from the Reverend John C. Hokott, and am much

920
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 2: impressed with the wisdom of his argument against circulating lascivious

921
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 2: photographs with cigarettes, and have made up my mind to

922
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 2: bring the matter to your attention and the interest of morality,

923
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 2: and in the hope that you can invent a proper

924
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:20,359
Speaker 2: substitute for these pictures which will answer your requirements as

925
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 2: an advertisement as well as an inducement to purchase. His

926
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:25,400
Speaker 2: views are so thoroughly and plainly stated that I do

927
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 2: not know how I can add anything except to state

928
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:29,360
Speaker 2: that they accord with my own, and that I have

929
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 2: always looked upon the distribution of this character of advertisement

930
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:35,400
Speaker 2: is wrong in its pernicious effects upon young men and womenhood,

931
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:39,240
Speaker 2: and therefore has not jingled with my religious impulses, outside

932
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 2: of the fact that we owe Christianity all the assistance

933
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 2: we can lend it in any form which is paramount

934
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:46,799
Speaker 2: to any other consideration. I am fully convinced that this

935
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 2: mode of advertising will be used and greatly strengthened the

936
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 2: arguments against will be used, and will greatly strengthen the

937
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,800
Speaker 2: arguments against cigarettes and the legislative halls of the States.

938
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 2: I hope you will consider this carefully and appreciate my

939
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:00,839
Speaker 2: side of the question. It would please me very much

940
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:03,879
Speaker 2: to know that a change has been made. Duke does

941
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 2: not make a change he is fined with it. Yeah,

942
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 2: so Duke is obviously not going to turn his back

943
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:16,720
Speaker 2: on all of this money because of simple morality. Instead,

944
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 2: he publishes advertising that encourages kids to complete sets of

945
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 2: trading cards, and he expands his advertising budget to keep

946
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:25,759
Speaker 2: a steady stream of new collectibles going out with his cigarettes.

947
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 2: It was a stunning success, and, as Alan Brandt notes, quote,

948
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 2: this commodity connected collecting was a lasting innovation that continues

949
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 2: today with baseball cards and Pokemon. Duke had discovered important

950
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 2: incentives for smoking in the cultural rituals of youth. We

951
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 2: owe pokemon to cigarettes. Amazing, that's incredible.

952
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, wow, I'm just imagine buying a pack of

953
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 5: mulbras to see him like a scourge, a shiny Cha

954
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 5: median or something.

955
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 2: Honestly, what about our culture wouldn't be better if, like,

956
00:48:57,560 --> 00:48:59,840
Speaker 2: in order to get a magic the Gathering Deck, you

957
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 2: had to smoke three entire cartons of Paul Moss.

958
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:08,840
Speaker 4: Yeah. I love that. It's just it's like the happy

959
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:11,240
Speaker 4: meal of cigarettes. It's great. It's perfect.

960
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 2: To match it like some nerdy sixteen year old like

961
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 2: lying on his side, like puking as he smokes his

962
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 2: fiftieth cigarette of the day. I need a lightning bolt card.

963
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:30,319
Speaker 5: He's trying to evolve his peak atue good dies of

964
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 5: smoking inhalation, trying to get a bulbo sore.

965
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 4: I choose you lung cancer.

966
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,600
Speaker 2: Now you know what else will give you lung cancer? James?

967
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 4: Is it the cigarettes that Sophie's saying to children behind

968
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 4: the it is?

969
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 2: It is the cigarettes that Sophie's sells to children behind

970
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 2: the school are very likely to cause cancer. But uh,

971
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 2: you know that's the way it works, Okay.

972
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 4: So.

973
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:14,320
Speaker 2: Ah, God, aren't we living well today? What a beautiful

974
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 2: world we have in this America that I love? How

975
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 2: are you all, Sophie?

976
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:31,879
Speaker 1: I'm just thoroughly disappointed in your actions? What else is new?

977
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:35,719
Speaker 2: Well, Sophie, you know what I'm not disappointed by is

978
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 2: the innovative thought leaders in big tobacco building the modern

979
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 2: world and inventing pokemon. So Duke understood instinctively that children

980
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 2: were the future of cigarettes. Established tobacco consumers had already

981
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 2: had their preferences like set for plug tobacco or snuff,

982
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:55,760
Speaker 2: or for pipe tobacco or cigars, and these methods involved

983
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:59,959
Speaker 2: less consumption or at least pickier consumers. Cigarettes smoked quickly

984
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:02,840
Speaker 2: and more conveniently than other tobacco products, and they caused

985
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,799
Speaker 2: less mess. They were also more addictive, which allowed for

986
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:09,200
Speaker 2: a quick and repeatable high any time. Again, most people

987
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 2: were chewing tobacco prior to this, So if people start

988
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 2: smoking instead of chewing, suddenly you don't have buckets of

989
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:18,360
Speaker 2: spit all over the place. Again, probably a net positive.

990
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 2: Now that said, you also have like more people smoking

991
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 2: in public places, which is a negative. But anyway. The

992
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 2: New York Times publishes an article at the time that

993
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 2: complains about Duke's attempt to entice boys to excessive cigarette smoking,

994
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:35,240
Speaker 2: and notes every possible device has been employed to interest

995
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 2: the juvenile mind, notably the lithograph album. Youngsters seeking these

996
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 2: picture books clamoring for the reward of self inflicted injury.

997
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 2: Many a boy under twelve years is striving for the

998
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 2: entire collection, which necessitates the consumption of nearly twelve thousand cigarettes.

999
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:55,400
Speaker 2: They're like trying to collect these picture books and smoking

1000
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 2: twelve thousand cigarettes.

1001
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 4: That is how you got your mole. Oh if that

1002
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:04,440
Speaker 4: is a rough a music.

1003
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:06,520
Speaker 2: That is an setting amount of cigarettes.

1004
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:08,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a lot of cigarettes.

1005
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 2: Wow, Yeah, that is that is an outrageous quantity of cigarettes.

1006
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 2: Duke can just hit upon a baller way to move cigarettes.

1007
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 2: He'd effectively invented the concept of collectible products as advertisements.

1008
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 2: He starts doing like sweepstakes right where you collect you know,

1009
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 2: different things that are on the boxes to turn them

1010
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 2: in to see if you can win like a prize.

1011
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 4: And it's yeah.

1012
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:33,520
Speaker 2: He also just like gives stuff. So basically everything from

1013
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:36,839
Speaker 2: how McDonald's happy Meals and like Funko pops to every

1014
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 2: product sweep steaks you've ever seen are all descendants of

1015
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:42,759
Speaker 2: what Duke is inventing in this period, which is just

1016
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 2: like different ways to get cigarettes in kids' mouths. We

1017
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 2: like all the entire toolbox of capitalism is being created.

1018
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 2: It's being created to push cigarettes to children. Duke changed

1019
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 2: his company's name to American Tobacco, which reflected his ambition

1020
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:01,520
Speaker 2: to be the alpha and omega of tobacco sales and

1021
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:04,760
Speaker 2: production in the United States. He poured unheard of amounts

1022
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 2: of money into his ad budget, soon spending nearly a

1023
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 2: quarter of the money he made on sales on ads.

1024
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:12,840
Speaker 2: His competitors were forced to pour similar amounts of cash

1025
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:16,479
Speaker 2: into their own efforts igniting the first national billboard War

1026
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:18,799
Speaker 2: and leading to a massive surge in the amount of

1027
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:22,400
Speaker 2: visual advertising in the United States. This is what starts

1028
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 2: to fill the country side up with ads with like

1029
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,479
Speaker 2: billboards and other kinds of big public ads. Is Duke

1030
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 2: spending all this money on cigarette ads?

1031
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:34,720
Speaker 4: Wow? So in ad gave us the monkey wrench Gang?

1032
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he is. He has, in the space of

1033
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:40,880
Speaker 2: what we've talked about so far, given us like modern

1034
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 2: patent law and all of the people that get killed

1035
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 2: as a result of medical device patents. He's given us

1036
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:50,960
Speaker 2: trading cards, He's given us like sweepstakes and like toy collecting,

1037
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:56,879
Speaker 2: and he's given us fucking billboards and the monkey Wrinch Gang.

1038
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:00,440
Speaker 2: So that's that's a lot for one guy. Yeah, real

1039
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 2: mikes bag. Now, one of the things that this does,

1040
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:06,839
Speaker 2: he's made it impossible, very close to impossible, for new

1041
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 2: companies to get into the cigarette business. Number One, you

1042
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:12,319
Speaker 2: have to be able to buy a cigarette machine to

1043
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:14,560
Speaker 2: be profitable, and that costs money. Number Two, you have

1044
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:17,319
Speaker 2: to have a shitload of cash to make ads. So

1045
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:21,440
Speaker 2: just like some young upstart who wants to sell cigarettes

1046
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:22,799
Speaker 2: to people isn't going to be able to get into

1047
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 2: the business unless they're backed by some serious moneyed interests,

1048
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 2: because it's just too expensive to get into it. From

1049
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:31,839
Speaker 2: the late eighteen eighties, Duke sent out regular feelers to

1050
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 2: his competitors asking if they'd be open to a buyout.

1051
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:36,920
Speaker 2: Most of them turned him down, but as the eighteen

1052
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 2: hundreds drew to a close, the fortunes of Duke and

1053
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:42,279
Speaker 2: his competitors, the fortunes that Duke and his competitors were

1054
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 2: throwing into ads had them all looking for a better way.

1055
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:47,399
Speaker 2: They're just spending too much damn money competing with each other.

1056
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 2: In January of eighteen ninety, Duke strong armed his fellow

1057
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 2: tobacco lords to join a consortium, the American Tobacco Company,

1058
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:57,040
Speaker 2: which would seek to monopolize not just tobacco sold in

1059
00:54:57,080 --> 00:55:01,000
Speaker 2: the United States, but produced as well. Overnight, the American

1060
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:04,160
Speaker 2: Tobacco Company was responsible for ninety percent of all cigarette

1061
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:07,280
Speaker 2: sales in the United States. Duke had formed a monopoly,

1062
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:10,400
Speaker 2: getting his competitors to agree to fixed prices and wages

1063
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:13,239
Speaker 2: in order to save money on advertising and production, and

1064
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:15,640
Speaker 2: to avoid the struggles for dominance that had devoured their

1065
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:18,719
Speaker 2: money in recent years. This was a winning strategy, and

1066
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:21,720
Speaker 2: as Duke took total control over the tobacco market. Prices

1067
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:24,439
Speaker 2: fell for consumers, but this also meant a lot less

1068
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:26,440
Speaker 2: money for farmers, and the trust brought an end to

1069
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:30,360
Speaker 2: competitive bidding for tobacco harvests. As Alan Brandt makes clear,

1070
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:32,880
Speaker 2: in a single minded quest to control the future of tobacco,

1071
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,360
Speaker 2: Duke helped invent the modern concept of a mega corporation,

1072
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 2: blazing a trail that would be followed by every ambitious

1073
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:43,799
Speaker 2: capitalist to come quote. Together, these three departments Audit, which

1074
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:47,720
Speaker 2: oversaw accounting and cost control, leaf and retail markets assured

1075
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:50,720
Speaker 2: the movement of cured tobacco from warehouse to factory to sales.

1076
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:54,720
Speaker 2: Individuals with specific expertise headed each department. The audit department,

1077
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 2: for example, introduced innovative accounting procedures that would later be

1078
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:01,280
Speaker 2: utilized by many other industries. The success of Duke's enterprise,

1079
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:04,280
Speaker 2: which became a model for other industries, rested on salaried

1080
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 2: executives who could assure the efficient functioning of their aspect

1081
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 2: of the business, as well as tight coordination with other

1082
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:13,440
Speaker 2: departments and activities. In short, he invented the middle manager.

1083
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:18,920
Speaker 4: Just another wonderful contribution to society.

1084
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:22,279
Speaker 2: He's really just humming along here, creating the modern world.

1085
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:24,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's taking them off. Now.

1086
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 2: One of the things that you know, when you invent

1087
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:28,280
Speaker 2: the middle manager, one of the things that you've done

1088
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:31,719
Speaker 2: is you've created the concept that's going to make up

1089
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 2: most of the ranks of the emerging middle class. Right.

1090
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:36,160
Speaker 2: What are a lot of people in the middle class.

1091
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:40,120
Speaker 2: They're fucking middle managers, right, which is also a lot

1092
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 2: of the people who are going to be tobacco consumers.

1093
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 4: Right.

1094
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 2: He's helping to create the basis of consumer culture here

1095
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 2: as he builds effectively helps to build the idea of

1096
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:55,240
Speaker 2: a kind of new class structure in a lot of ways. Obviously,

1097
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:58,080
Speaker 2: like middle management had existed before, but not in the

1098
00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 2: kind of quantity that it had because prior to Duke,

1099
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:04,240
Speaker 2: you've got a lot of tobacco being made and sold,

1100
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:07,320
Speaker 2: and you've got a different sort of tobacco companies middle managers.

1101
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 2: But the companies are all much smaller, and it's like

1102
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:12,640
Speaker 2: this company we handle production. This company like we we

1103
00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:14,719
Speaker 2: handle like we get the tobacco from the farmers and

1104
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:16,840
Speaker 2: we process it. You know, we're the people who roll

1105
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:20,520
Speaker 2: it and sell it directly to the consumers. He's rolling

1106
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 2: all of this into one giant venture, and instead of

1107
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:26,920
Speaker 2: the constituent parts being made up of small business owners,

1108
00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 2: the constituent parts are managed by middle managers who are

1109
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 2: operating like rungs inside of this larger corporate structure. He's

1110
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 2: not the first guy to do this, but he's the

1111
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:39,680
Speaker 2: first guy to do this and be this successful with it.

1112
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:44,280
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, So it's a convertically integrated supply.

1113
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 2: Chain, right, exactly exactly, So that's pretty cool. Everywhere he

1114
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:54,440
Speaker 2: cut out independent manufacturers and free agents, small reslers, and rollers.

1115
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:57,920
Speaker 2: The entire tobacco market went from an artisanal industry with

1116
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:01,080
Speaker 2: strong unions to a vast factory for the production of

1117
00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:04,840
Speaker 2: identical machine rolled cigarettes. The only piece of the tobacco

1118
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:08,240
Speaker 2: business that successfully resisted and that maintained its high level

1119
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:11,880
Speaker 2: of unionization were cigars, which, for whatever reason, are kind

1120
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:13,640
Speaker 2: of immune to modernity.

1121
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:14,120
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1122
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 5: I'm just realizing this guy is like Jeff Bezos.

1123
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:19,920
Speaker 2: He's the Besos of cigarettes.

1124
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:22,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, which, Jeff Bezos.

1125
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 5: I'm sure we'd love to be the Besis of cigarettes

1126
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:26,160
Speaker 5: along with being on Bezos almost everything else.

1127
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:28,240
Speaker 2: Because it's a great thing to be the Bezos of.

1128
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 2: So kudos to cigars. For being respect yeah, respect to

1129
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:39,040
Speaker 2: the cigar industry for fighting back against this. But obviously

1130
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:42,880
Speaker 2: Duke barely notices that, like he's you know, losing out

1131
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:45,440
Speaker 2: on this chunk of the business. He tells his board

1132
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:48,160
Speaker 2: that quote, the world is now our market for our product.

1133
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 2: And in nineteen oh two he sets upon the goal

1134
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:53,520
Speaker 2: of getting the world to start adopting cigarettes. He signs

1135
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:57,000
Speaker 2: a deal with his largest foreign rival, the UK's Imperial Tobacco,

1136
00:58:57,360 --> 00:58:59,920
Speaker 2: and they formed the British American Tobacco Corporation.

1137
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:02,080
Speaker 4: Of course, that's what the British wants called.

1138
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:07,600
Speaker 2: Yes, and they do. They're doing a tobacco imperialism, right.

1139
00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 2: They're going out with a goal of convincing people nations

1140
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 2: who had never smoked to smoke now. And Jordan Goodman,

1141
00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:16,880
Speaker 2: the author of Tobacco in History, notes to him every

1142
00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:19,760
Speaker 2: cigarette was the same. All of the globalization that we

1143
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:22,240
Speaker 2: are now familiar with through McDonald's and Starbucks, all of

1144
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:25,480
Speaker 2: that was preceded by Duke and the cigarette. So not

1145
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 2: only is he getting people hooked on cigarettes, he's getting

1146
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:30,200
Speaker 2: them hooked on the idea of this is a product

1147
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:33,760
Speaker 2: that comes under a specific brand and everyone in the

1148
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:37,440
Speaker 2: world consumes the same product the same way, right that

1149
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:39,800
Speaker 2: you know, you may you maybe if you're a cigarette

1150
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:42,040
Speaker 2: smoker in Turkey in the early eighteen hundreds and a

1151
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:44,360
Speaker 2: cigarette smoker in France, a cigarette smoker in the United States,

1152
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:47,400
Speaker 2: you are smoking something that was rolled down the street

1153
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 2: from you at a shop, right, and probably tobacco that

1154
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:51,880
Speaker 2: was grown fairly close to you. There's a little bit

1155
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:55,440
Speaker 2: of movement around then around the world, but generally speaking,

1156
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:59,120
Speaker 2: you're consuming a local product because everything is pretty local.

1157
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:02,280
Speaker 2: He has invented the idea that no, no, no, if

1158
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:03,880
Speaker 2: you're going to be in a cigarettes, you're going to

1159
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:07,080
Speaker 2: smoke this specific kind of cigarette, and everyone on Earth

1160
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:07,959
Speaker 2: does it the same way.

1161
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:10,760
Speaker 4: Wow. Yeah, yeah, it's crazy.

1162
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:13,320
Speaker 5: It's like, yeah, he's now more or less invented like

1163
01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:14,760
Speaker 5: the global commodity, right.

1164
01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:17,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this is like it's one of the very

1165
01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:21,880
Speaker 2: first yeah, and probably the I think the first that's

1166
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:24,840
Speaker 2: like an individual consumer good, right, because this is starting

1167
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:27,680
Speaker 2: to happen with like steel and with fuel and stuff. Right,

1168
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:30,200
Speaker 2: But you as an individual are like going down to

1169
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:32,720
Speaker 2: the store to pick up you know, some fucking petroleum

1170
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:35,120
Speaker 2: or some cold generally, but you're gonna go down and

1171
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:37,680
Speaker 2: get a cigarette that's made by the British American company

1172
01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:42,320
Speaker 2: every day, whether you live in fucking Tokyo or timbucktoo.

1173
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:46,000
Speaker 2: It hasn't spread quite that far yet, but this is

1174
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:49,640
Speaker 2: what's going to happen. Right. By nineteen oh four, cigarettes

1175
01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:52,240
Speaker 2: had finally cracked five percent of the American market for

1176
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:54,360
Speaker 2: tobacco products. That seems small, but that means it's more

1177
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:57,280
Speaker 2: than doubled in a couple of years. Yea, Duke saw

1178
01:00:57,320 --> 01:01:00,040
Speaker 2: them as the smart, smart product to push, but he

1179
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:02,560
Speaker 2: spent several years cornering the markets on plug and pipe

1180
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:05,680
Speaker 2: tobacco too, so they're selling everything. It's also worth noting that,

1181
01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:08,240
Speaker 2: like Duke is a cigar man himself, he does not

1182
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:12,280
Speaker 2: understand why people like cigarettes. He does not like cigarettes.

1183
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 2: He just is betting that they're going to be a

1184
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:20,320
Speaker 2: big deal, right perfect. So before he can kind of

1185
01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:23,680
Speaker 2: take this idea further, though, the United States Congress starts

1186
01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 2: looking into his tobacco trust, which is, you know, what

1187
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:29,240
Speaker 2: he's made with American tobacco, He's formed a monopoly, and

1188
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:32,240
Speaker 2: they decide it's in violation of the Sherman Anti Trust Act,

1189
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:35,000
Speaker 2: which had also been created in eighteen ninety. Now it

1190
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:37,960
Speaker 2: took the governmental while to actually get to American tobacco,

1191
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:40,640
Speaker 2: and by the time it starts looking into things, American

1192
01:01:40,680 --> 01:01:43,360
Speaker 2: tobacco controls not just ninety percent of the cigarette trade,

1193
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:46,120
Speaker 2: but seventy five to eighty five percent of all tobacco

1194
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:49,560
Speaker 2: sold in the United States. Duke had even recently started

1195
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:52,480
Speaker 2: buying up companies who were producing licorice paste to make

1196
01:01:52,560 --> 01:01:57,720
Speaker 2: sweeter flavored cigarettes. So he's again a fucking trailblazer.

1197
01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:01,680
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, guys, you can try out in a great direction.

1198
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:04,919
Speaker 2: Necessarily maybe not in the best direction, but you can't.

1199
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:07,400
Speaker 2: You can't deny the man knows what he's doing. Yeah,

1200
01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:09,800
Speaker 2: this is a dude who loves to make How rich

1201
01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:13,280
Speaker 2: was this guy? I mean it doesn't because if you

1202
01:02:13,640 --> 01:02:15,760
Speaker 2: actually translate it, it's just going to wind up being

1203
01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:19,160
Speaker 2: in the tens of millions, which makes it like, effectively

1204
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:21,400
Speaker 2: he is a billionaire in his day, right, like for

1205
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:25,960
Speaker 2: everything that matters, you know, Yeah, he has infinity dollars.

1206
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:28,040
Speaker 5: You do have to think how different would the world

1207
01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 5: be if we've just given him Twitter and he could

1208
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:32,840
Speaker 5: have done an Elon Musk and solve the war in

1209
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:35,960
Speaker 5: Ukraine instead of inventing new ways to give kids cancer.

1210
01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:42,920
Speaker 2: This new cigarette's gonna work as a boat briefly. So

1211
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:46,560
Speaker 2: this puts Duke about twenty years ahead of the invention

1212
01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:48,960
Speaker 2: of the first menthol cigarettes. And we're not going to

1213
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:50,800
Speaker 2: talk a lot about this, but I have to let

1214
01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:53,240
Speaker 2: you know that menthol cigarettes are invented by a man

1215
01:02:53,360 --> 01:03:02,560
Speaker 2: named Lloyd spud Hughes, great, very very funny name. So

1216
01:03:02,640 --> 01:03:05,400
Speaker 2: Duke is like a generation ahead of the competition. But

1217
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:08,200
Speaker 2: that's not enough to protect him from the Department of Justice, which,

1218
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:11,840
Speaker 2: and this is weird, used to actually punish corporations for

1219
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:14,560
Speaker 2: monopolistic behavior. This was the thing you could get in

1220
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:15,800
Speaker 2: trouble for back the way.

1221
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:20,000
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, rubber coming out and support of the DJ.

1222
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:23,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, they don't do a good job of this,

1223
01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:26,840
Speaker 2: so I'm not supportive, but it is more than they

1224
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:27,720
Speaker 2: try to do today.

1225
01:03:28,640 --> 01:03:31,520
Speaker 1: I'm more familiar with the not doing a good job part.

1226
01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:32,440
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1227
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:36,320
Speaker 2: Well, so during this period, the DOJ is going after

1228
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:40,440
Speaker 2: the three largest businesses in the United States for monopolistic behavior.

1229
01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:43,000
Speaker 2: And the three largest businesses in the United States are

1230
01:03:43,120 --> 01:03:47,080
Speaker 2: Standard oil, US steel, and American tobacco. So again to

1231
01:03:47,560 --> 01:03:50,120
Speaker 2: understand the scale of this, the thing that he has

1232
01:03:50,120 --> 01:03:53,040
Speaker 2: built is as big as the oil and gas industry, right,

1233
01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:55,680
Speaker 2: like it's the steel industry. It's in that ballpark.

1234
01:03:55,960 --> 01:03:56,680
Speaker 4: It's wild.

1235
01:03:57,120 --> 01:03:59,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, impressively not great.

1236
01:03:59,720 --> 01:04:04,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, So Teddy Roosevelt, the trustbuster, forces the DOJ to

1237
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:07,920
Speaker 2: go after Duke Buster. Yeah, that's what he's doing. He's

1238
01:04:07,960 --> 01:04:11,360
Speaker 2: busting trues some trusts. Well, there's a lot.

1239
01:04:11,160 --> 01:04:12,880
Speaker 1: Of funny coming out of your mouth.

1240
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:15,640
Speaker 2: There's a lot of things that we have to dislike

1241
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:19,080
Speaker 2: Teddy Roosevelt for, but one thing the man legitimately hated

1242
01:04:19,160 --> 01:04:24,840
Speaker 2: was monopolies, and he goes after them. There were there

1243
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:28,160
Speaker 2: were a lot of more problematic things than Teddy Roosevelt hated.

1244
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:32,240
Speaker 2: But in this case, he's broadly speaking, doing the right thing.

1245
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:35,280
Speaker 2: And and the DOJ is like, yeah, you've you've made

1246
01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:37,560
Speaker 2: a monopoly. This is not legal, and you have to

1247
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:43,400
Speaker 2: dismantle American Tobacco. Now, this is impossible because Duke has

1248
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:46,440
Speaker 2: vertically integrated it to such a degree that everyone is

1249
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:50,200
Speaker 2: reliant upon the same supply and distribution change. You can't

1250
01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:52,720
Speaker 2: actually split the companies back up the way they'd been

1251
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:57,200
Speaker 2: fifteen years before. So the DOJ, not wanting to destroy

1252
01:04:57,440 --> 01:05:00,440
Speaker 2: one of the three largest businesses in the US, zimpts

1253
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:03,640
Speaker 2: a bunch of their sub businesses and their international partnerships

1254
01:05:03,840 --> 01:05:07,480
Speaker 2: and like allows them to maintain certain supply chains and whatnot.

1255
01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:12,080
Speaker 2: And obviously, while this is going on, American Tobacco appeals,

1256
01:05:12,080 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court rules against them in nineteen eleven, and

1257
01:05:14,400 --> 01:05:18,280
Speaker 2: eventually they do split the trust up into five companies

1258
01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:23,280
Speaker 2: that are technically independent, competing businesses. But as the Cigarette

1259
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:25,520
Speaker 2: Century makes clear, after all the Duke had done to

1260
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:28,880
Speaker 2: weave the companies together, there can't actually be cut apart.

1261
01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:29,400
Speaker 4: Quote.

1262
01:05:29,720 --> 01:05:31,920
Speaker 2: The settlement was meant to a share competition among the

1263
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:36,200
Speaker 2: five newly constituted companies. Each received factories, distribution and storage facilities,

1264
01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:38,800
Speaker 2: and name brands. But given the size and complexity of

1265
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:41,960
Speaker 2: the business, there existed in superable obstacles to the creation

1266
01:05:42,040 --> 01:05:45,600
Speaker 2: of perfect competitive conditions. No matter how the industry was restructured,

1267
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:49,800
Speaker 2: there simply was no going back. So Duke continues to

1268
01:05:49,880 --> 01:05:53,320
Speaker 2: run this chunk of American tobacco. It remains in his control.

1269
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:57,040
Speaker 2: British American tobacco is what remains in his control, and

1270
01:05:57,080 --> 01:06:00,160
Speaker 2: his fellow owners, even though they're all competing, continue to

1271
01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:02,960
Speaker 2: collude to fixed prices in order to maximize profits. So

1272
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:06,240
Speaker 2: he's it's not as bad, but they've gone from a

1273
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:07,800
Speaker 2: monopoly to an oligopoly.

1274
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:08,240
Speaker 5: Right.

1275
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:12,400
Speaker 2: That's that's, that's what the DOJ succeeds in actually doing.

1276
01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:13,760
Speaker 4: Great job, Grey Jay.

1277
01:06:14,320 --> 01:06:17,520
Speaker 2: And since his he's kind of peaked as a cigarette man,

1278
01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:21,040
Speaker 2: Duke moves over to the power industry. He establishes a

1279
01:06:21,040 --> 01:06:24,920
Speaker 2: power company that provides. Yeah, he builds, his company builds

1280
01:06:24,920 --> 01:06:27,080
Speaker 2: the electrical grid for North and South Carolina.

1281
01:06:27,720 --> 01:06:30,560
Speaker 4: Can you just stop? I know he can with the

1282
01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:32,800
Speaker 4: Pokemon cards. That apparently not.

1283
01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:36,160
Speaker 2: He he does when he gets old and is about

1284
01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:38,240
Speaker 2: to die, he gives most of his fortune tens of

1285
01:06:38,280 --> 01:06:41,040
Speaker 2: millions of dollars to Trinity College in Durham, which is

1286
01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:43,840
Speaker 2: renamed Duke University in his honor. And that's and that's

1287
01:06:43,880 --> 01:06:45,440
Speaker 2: where we get Duke University.

1288
01:06:45,880 --> 01:06:48,640
Speaker 5: Didn't see they're coming, Yeah, great man, They have a

1289
01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:49,680
Speaker 5: good public health school.

1290
01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:52,320
Speaker 4: Now actually yes, yes, yeah.

1291
01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:55,240
Speaker 2: Well they honestly a lot of the best information about

1292
01:06:55,320 --> 01:06:57,480
Speaker 2: the cigarette industry, and all of the fund up shit

1293
01:06:57,560 --> 01:07:00,000
Speaker 2: it did comes from Duke University. They have great resource

1294
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:01,880
Speaker 2: for understanding tobacco ad frantis.

1295
01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:02,600
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1296
01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:05,640
Speaker 2: So, I mean, to the university's credit, they don't like

1297
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:08,960
Speaker 2: shy away from the but also what look, Duke is

1298
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:12,120
Speaker 2: immoral because he's a capitalist and he is profiting off

1299
01:07:12,120 --> 01:07:14,880
Speaker 2: of people's surplus labor in a number of ways that

1300
01:07:14,920 --> 01:07:17,920
Speaker 2: are unethical. There's nothing wrong with him selling cigarettes at

1301
01:07:17,920 --> 01:07:20,320
Speaker 2: this point because he has no he dies in nineteen

1302
01:07:20,360 --> 01:07:24,000
Speaker 2: twenty five, There is no nothing that even approaches a

1303
01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:26,880
Speaker 2: medical consensus about cigarettes and cancer at this point.

1304
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:28,360
Speaker 4: You can't blame it on.

1305
01:07:28,360 --> 01:07:30,720
Speaker 5: Him, right, He's doing horrific shit. So there will people

1306
01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:31,760
Speaker 5: who work for him, I'm.

1307
01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:35,960
Speaker 2: Sure, absolutely, like destroying unions and whatnot, and there's like

1308
01:07:35,960 --> 01:07:38,400
Speaker 2: a bunch that's unethical, But the fact that he's selling

1309
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:40,720
Speaker 2: cigarettes is not something that I would put on his

1310
01:07:40,840 --> 01:07:43,560
Speaker 2: soul because you know, there's no way for him to

1311
01:07:43,560 --> 01:07:45,200
Speaker 2: have known that they were harmful, you know.

1312
01:07:45,320 --> 01:07:45,960
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah.

1313
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:50,640
Speaker 2: In nineteen nineteen, a US surgical student named Alton Oschner

1314
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:52,920
Speaker 2: was called along with several of his peers to observe

1315
01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:56,080
Speaker 2: the autopsy of a lung cancer victim. His teacher was

1316
01:07:56,120 --> 01:07:58,600
Speaker 2: excited to have an example of the rare illness in

1317
01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:01,800
Speaker 2: their operating theater. He wanted Alton and his fellow students

1318
01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:04,040
Speaker 2: to see the autopsy because he believed they would not

1319
01:08:04,080 --> 01:08:05,360
Speaker 2: get a second chance to do.

1320
01:08:05,400 --> 01:08:07,480
Speaker 4: So you guys gotta check this out.

1321
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:10,040
Speaker 2: You never got to see another lung cancer. Nobody gets

1322
01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:14,120
Speaker 2: this shit less than the thirty years later, lung cancer

1323
01:08:14,160 --> 01:08:16,479
Speaker 2: would be the number one cause of death in the

1324
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:21,040
Speaker 2: United States. As Robert Proctor of Stanford University told one interviewer,

1325
01:08:21,400 --> 01:08:24,320
Speaker 2: the cigarette is the deadliest artifact in the history of

1326
01:08:24,400 --> 01:08:27,720
Speaker 2: human civilization. It killed about one hundred million people in

1327
01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:28,719
Speaker 2: the twentieth century.

1328
01:08:28,840 --> 01:08:31,759
Speaker 4: Ooh, Jesus rish.

1329
01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:38,479
Speaker 2: May And honestly he's probably lowballing it.

1330
01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:41,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And it's before you look at the

1331
01:08:42,080 --> 01:08:43,759
Speaker 5: sort of downstream things.

1332
01:08:44,320 --> 01:08:50,120
Speaker 6: Jesus Christ, that is, that is quite a jult. Like

1333
01:08:51,120 --> 01:08:53,320
Speaker 6: we can we can.

1334
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:57,080
Speaker 2: Argue about fascism and communism and the things the Great

1335
01:08:57,200 --> 01:09:00,439
Speaker 2: Leap Forward and La Sangoism what killed the most people.

1336
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:04,240
Speaker 2: But man, nobody's nobody's touching the cigarettes numbers.

1337
01:09:04,240 --> 01:09:07,559
Speaker 4: It's right, Yeah, the cigarettes.

1338
01:09:07,040 --> 01:09:10,439
Speaker 2: Out here dropping three pointers every shot into a goat

1339
01:09:10,680 --> 01:09:12,200
Speaker 2: of killing people.

1340
01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:16,600
Speaker 5: I'm eagerly awaiting Michael Tracy to like go recuperate the

1341
01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:18,479
Speaker 5: cigarettes's reputation on Twitter or something.

1342
01:09:20,720 --> 01:09:22,759
Speaker 2: So James, you get anything you want to plug before

1343
01:09:22,760 --> 01:09:23,439
Speaker 2: we roll.

1344
01:09:23,400 --> 01:09:26,639
Speaker 4: Out afar wine, I do another podcast if you do too.

1345
01:09:26,680 --> 01:09:30,559
Speaker 4: Sometimes it could happen here. I do listen to them.

1346
01:09:31,120 --> 01:09:33,120
Speaker 4: It's about how things are falling apart and people are

1347
01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:35,479
Speaker 4: putting them back together. It's a good podcast.

1348
01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:38,680
Speaker 2: It is a good podcast. I would say it's one

1349
01:09:38,720 --> 01:09:40,800
Speaker 2: of the only two podcasts that should be legal.

1350
01:09:41,280 --> 01:09:44,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, fair enough if we're doing basically what he

1351
01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:49,120
Speaker 5: did with cigarettes, but two podcasts, and very slowly we're

1352
01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:52,280
Speaker 5: we're stealing all the microphones and giving everyone can.

1353
01:09:52,520 --> 01:09:54,840
Speaker 2: And I mean hopefully going to kill one hundred million

1354
01:09:54,880 --> 01:10:01,800
Speaker 2: people of course of the century's.

1355
01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:05,080
Speaker 4: That's yeah, and see you've glad your goals.

1356
01:10:05,160 --> 01:10:07,639
Speaker 5: Yeah, we do have a live show if you survive

1357
01:10:07,720 --> 01:10:12,920
Speaker 5: that long ship twenty six. Yeah it's twenty six. I

1358
01:10:12,920 --> 01:10:16,479
Speaker 5: think it's on the twenty sixth of October. Yeah, that's right,

1359
01:10:16,560 --> 01:10:17,280
Speaker 5: sight and everything.

1360
01:10:19,439 --> 01:10:24,519
Speaker 2: So check that ship out, motherfucker. Buy tickets to the

1361
01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:29,400
Speaker 2: live show, and uh, look great. I'm not going to

1362
01:10:29,439 --> 01:10:34,080
Speaker 2: tell you should smoke cigarettes, but have you ever tried, Okay,

1363
01:10:34,080 --> 01:10:38,679
Speaker 2: the smooth, flavorful taste of a camel. It's like driving

1364
01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:43,160
Speaker 2: through the desert in early November, you know, when you've

1365
01:10:43,240 --> 01:10:49,160
Speaker 2: just got that pure dry coal wire. We're just take

1366
01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:52,879
Speaker 2: it in a Marlborough red Oh, God, the flavor country.

1367
01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:56,479
Speaker 2: That's what people are missing today, Sophie, do you know

1368
01:10:56,520 --> 01:11:01,880
Speaker 2: how few gin zers have been the flavor country. That's

1369
01:11:01,920 --> 01:11:05,400
Speaker 2: their heritage. Soaping, that's their heritage.

1370
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:09,240
Speaker 1: Stop it all right, This is not cash money.

1371
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:12,519
Speaker 4: Pick up, pick up some cigarettes kids, very much as

1372
01:11:12,600 --> 01:11:13,200
Speaker 4: cash money.

1373
01:11:16,360 --> 01:11:19,080
Speaker 9: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1374
01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:22,680
Speaker 9: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

1375
01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:26,080
Speaker 9: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1376
01:11:26,160 --> 01:11:29,320
Speaker 9: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the

1377
01:11:29,320 --> 01:11:33,400
Speaker 9: Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday

1378
01:11:33,479 --> 01:11:37,160
Speaker 9: and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash

1379
01:11:37,320 --> 01:11:38,840
Speaker 9: at Behind the Bastards