Speaker 1: It was very clear by age of fifteen sixteen, when
Speaker 1: I was already a grand master, that I became the
Speaker 1: only woman player in those tournaments where let's say there
Speaker 1: were thirteen men adults and I was the only girl
Speaker 1: or woman. Later on, but it meant that I had
Speaker 1: to have the perseverance for that, to stand up always
Speaker 1: when something went wrong or they beat me, to have
Speaker 1: that the fighting spirit, to have the dedication, to have
Speaker 1: that passion for the game. That was Judith Paulgar. She's
Speaker 1: been called the greatest woman chess player of all time,
Speaker 1: but her achievements go beyond gender lines. At age fifteen,
Speaker 1: she became the youngest person ever to achieve grand master status,
Speaker 1: younger than Bobby Fisher was when he earned that title,
Speaker 1: and she's defeated many of the world's most renowned men players,
Speaker 1: including Gary Kasparov and Boris Spassky. I'm a land Ververe
Speaker 1: and this is Seneca's one d Women to Hear. We
Speaker 1: are bringing you one hundred of the world's most inspiring
Speaker 1: and history making women you need to hear. Judith Polgar
Speaker 1: has been excelling at chess for more than four decades,
Speaker 1: since she was a five year old in Hungary. Today,
Speaker 1: she coaches chess and inspires the next generation of players
Speaker 1: through the Judith Polgar Chess Foundation, and on October eight
Speaker 1: she will once again host the annual Judith Polgar Global
Speaker 1: Chess Festival. This year's theme is Women in Chess, Women
Speaker 1: in Science. Listen and learn why Judith Polgar is one
Speaker 1: of Seneca's one hundred Women to Hear. I'm here today
Speaker 1: with Judith Polgar, who is considered to be the best
Speaker 1: woman chess player of all time. Judy, it is a
Speaker 1: pleasure to have you with us. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1: Nice to be here. Really, you became a grand master
Speaker 1: at age fifteen. You were ranked eighth in the world
Speaker 1: male or female. You've beaten many of the men who
Speaker 1: were world champions. What is that special thing that makes
Speaker 1: you different that makes you a top chess player. I
Speaker 1: believe that mainly the way I was raised and my
Speaker 1: parents gave and supported me in many different ways and
Speaker 1: and also inspired me to have a mindset that I
Speaker 1: know that I can do it, and they always said
Speaker 1: that I can do it. They try to give the
Speaker 1: most possible opportunities to me, having the good trainers, giving
Speaker 1: opportunity to play in the right tournament and also support
Speaker 1: me emotionally and in every way, so I'm able to
Speaker 1: improve from day to days. So that's how I think
Speaker 1: I could become really good in chess. Well, you mentioned
Speaker 1: your parents, and I know that you began playing in
Speaker 1: tournaments when you were just six years old. Tell us
Speaker 1: how you got introduced to chess. Was it your parents
Speaker 1: and what was your training? Like? Why were you attracted
Speaker 1: to chess? Actually, for me, I had a paved road
Speaker 1: ahead of me because I have two older sisters. Susan
Speaker 1: who is the oldest, She's seven year older than me,
Speaker 1: so when I started to play chess when I was five,
Speaker 1: she had already very serious results even internationally. So Sophia,
Speaker 1: the middle one, she also played chess already, and when
Speaker 1: I was a baby, already my parents knew that my
Speaker 1: path is to become a chess champion, and they did
Speaker 1: everything in order to to make me one. And so
Speaker 1: it was very natural for me that I wanted to
Speaker 1: follow my sisters and I started to play chess. Then
Speaker 1: I started to have my first tournament, and very fast
Speaker 1: they discovered that I'm talented and I'm growing very fast
Speaker 1: in my chess knowledge and somehow my character was also
Speaker 1: very much suited for competitions. So this is how I
Speaker 1: started to to get to be involved with chess. And
Speaker 1: of course when you have positive feedback from your parents,
Speaker 1: when you go to a chess tournament with you win
Speaker 1: your game, those are the best fuel to move on
Speaker 1: and to be inspired again and again. And what was
Speaker 1: it about chess your sisters? As you said, we're very engaged,
Speaker 1: But what made it so compelling for you? I mean,
Speaker 1: after all, you have to put in such long hours
Speaker 1: to become a champion. I think I just started to
Speaker 1: love the game very much and it gave me a
Speaker 1: lot of pleasure to not only to win the game
Speaker 1: men win against adult men, but also what I enjoyed
Speaker 1: a lot from the very beginning the creativity part of chess,
Speaker 1: which means that to make combinations, to to create some
Speaker 1: unexpected solutions and something very beautiful. And in chess we
Speaker 1: say if you give up some pieces and then suddenly
Speaker 1: unexpectedly win the game, So those kind of solutions are
Speaker 1: liked very much. And also my playing style was very
Speaker 1: much like that that that was very aggressive. I wanted
Speaker 1: to win the game as short as possible and give
Speaker 1: checkmate to my opponent. And I really like those creative
Speaker 1: moments and and combinations which I learned at home, and
Speaker 1: then later on I could apply it in tournament chess
Speaker 1: as well. So interesting, now, women and chess don't typically
Speaker 1: go together. But when you were out, you competed against boys.
Speaker 1: You want what sort of obstacles have you had to
Speaker 1: face as a girl or as a woman in chess,
Speaker 1: and how did you deal with those? Obviously, my sisters
Speaker 1: were supporting me a lot, and they had already the
Speaker 1: experience and they were sharing it with me and supporting
Speaker 1: me how to do it differently. Let's say, well, of course,
Speaker 1: when I was a kid, people did not really believe
Speaker 1: that my knowledge is stable, and they said, okay, she's
Speaker 1: just lucky here. Her opponent was sick, her opponent was
Speaker 1: wasn't in good for so they were always excuses, or
Speaker 1: many times there were excuses. And later on I also
Speaker 1: experienced that I had to prove myself much more time
Speaker 1: than as if I would have been a talented boy,
Speaker 1: because this was normal. And then it was very clear
Speaker 1: by age of fifteen sixteen, when I was already a grandmaster,
Speaker 1: that I became the only woman player in those tournaments
Speaker 1: where I started to play those invitational tournaments where let's
Speaker 1: say there were thirteen men adults and I was the
Speaker 1: only girl or or woman. Later on, and I mean
Speaker 1: one of the nicest things they told me already much later,
Speaker 1: when an and world champion was asked what does he
Speaker 1: think about Judith Bulger And then he didn't really understand
Speaker 1: the question and replied that, well, she's one of us.
Speaker 1: And so I worked hard for that that they acknowledged
Speaker 1: my results, and they really treated me like another very
Speaker 1: strong grandmaster. But it meant that I I had to
Speaker 1: have the perseverance for that, to stand up always when
Speaker 1: something went wrong or they beat me, to have that
Speaker 1: fighting spirit, to have that dedication, to have that passion
Speaker 1: for the game. And I think also that my character
Speaker 1: suited very much for competition. It also helped a lot.
Speaker 1: She's one of us. That's high praise coming from a guy,
Speaker 1: especially a world champion. By any chance, was that Gary
Speaker 1: Kasparov who was speaking, He certainly was a world champion,
Speaker 1: a grand master, one of the chess giants that you
Speaker 1: have beaten. He was dismissive of you. I gather uh
Speaker 1: and women players in general when you first came on
Speaker 1: the scene. But what did you think of his comments
Speaker 1: then and how did you help him change his mind? Well,
Speaker 1: you know, the to change people's mind is always something difficult,
Speaker 1: but usually results eventually convinced them, and this was the
Speaker 1: case for me also with my events and games with
Speaker 1: Kasparo as when he said those things. For example, in
Speaker 1: eight eight when he was asked after me and my
Speaker 1: sisters we won gold medal for Hungary Hungary in the
Speaker 1: ladies team. Those very few occasions when I played in
Speaker 1: ladies competitions, he was asked from a journalist that what
Speaker 1: does he think, how good can I become? I was
Speaker 1: only twelve years old, and he said, well, he believes
Speaker 1: that absolutely I am going to become a world champion.
Speaker 1: And when the reporter asked him that what do you
Speaker 1: think can you ever play with her? Then he said,
Speaker 1: well I don't think so. I it's almost impossible. And
Speaker 1: what happened was later on, when I was sixteen, I
Speaker 1: played my first game against Kasparov and after that many
Speaker 1: other occasions repeated it and he was beating me quite
Speaker 1: a few times. But then the time came when I
Speaker 1: made some drows, we had a very fighting draw. Also
Speaker 1: I had an opportunity where it was very difficult for him,
Speaker 1: so he was sweating a little bit, almost being scared
Speaker 1: that he can lose the game. And then later on,
Speaker 1: at one point I was also winning against him. So
Speaker 1: it was very clear that little by little I could
Speaker 1: improve my chest and I could also perform and show
Speaker 1: it on the chessboard against him. And this is how
Speaker 1: I gained respect with all the grandmasters. That's simply I
Speaker 1: was playing better. I want again a game against them,
Speaker 1: which meant that they had to experience it on their
Speaker 1: own skin. What it what it is when they lose
Speaker 1: against me? And then they started to change their attitude.
Speaker 1: What was it like that first time when you beat Kasparov?
Speaker 1: It was great? But I have to tell you that
Speaker 1: already before I made in a huge tournament which was
Speaker 1: considered the vimbloodin of chess in Linares a year ago,
Speaker 1: I played two fantastic games against him, and I considered
Speaker 1: those at least as important in my career as the
Speaker 1: one which I wont. Seneca's one hundred Women to hear
Speaker 1: will be back after the short break. Now, as you mentioned,
Speaker 1: mostly you played against men rather than other women. What
Speaker 1: was your thinking behind that? Well, I'm I feel very
Speaker 1: fortunate that my parents raised me this way, that they
Speaker 1: were always focusing on the objective performance in the sport
Speaker 1: and not limit my limit me and my sisters that
Speaker 1: we can only become masters grandmasters between ladies. Because the
Speaker 1: problem is that when you say that, for example, too
Speaker 1: a little girl, you say, and there are six that
Speaker 1: you can become a great world champion between women, and
Speaker 1: you say the same thing for a boy, that you
Speaker 1: can become the world champion between men. The different thing
Speaker 1: is that it's like in reality as if you would
Speaker 1: say to a girl that you can have a PhD.
Speaker 1: And you inspired the boy that you can be a
Speaker 1: Nobel prize winner. So this is the huge difference. And
Speaker 1: this is why I'm really grateful to my parents that
Speaker 1: they were always believing in me that I should be
Speaker 1: performing as good as possible and be the best I
Speaker 1: can objectively in the sport, not talking the difference between
Speaker 1: women and men chess. And I think this gave me
Speaker 1: a great vision on life, on on in everything, how
Speaker 1: I raise my kids, how I live my life, and
Speaker 1: and and this I'm very very happy for that. This
Speaker 1: is what my parents told me and I for me,
Speaker 1: this was the most natural thing that obviously, of course,
Speaker 1: I look at the sport, not about the gender questions.
Speaker 1: Are your children interested in chef? They were playing when
Speaker 1: they were in kindergarten and in elementary school for second grade,
Speaker 1: but after that they gave up, they were not interested anymore.
Speaker 1: To each his own, as we say, they have to
Speaker 1: follow their own path. Why do you think it is
Speaker 1: that there aren't very many women in chess? What's holding
Speaker 1: women back? There are many reasons. I think one is
Speaker 1: that society is not really supporting that. As let's say,
Speaker 1: if a boy wants to become competitive in chess, there
Speaker 1: are somehow more accepting that attitude from a boy than
Speaker 1: from a girl life. But also generally teachers are not
Speaker 1: supportive so much. Parents may be also not that supportive.
Speaker 1: And actually there are many girls who play. Maybe it's
Speaker 1: even fifty fifty until age ten eleven or so, and
Speaker 1: only after that it becomes a huge dropout for girls.
Speaker 1: And probably also because they are to to be more
Speaker 1: serious about their studies, they get matured earlier, and and
Speaker 1: somehow they don't like this lifestyle and in society is
Speaker 1: not supporting them at all, They are not encouraging them
Speaker 1: that wow, this would be a great profession for you.
Speaker 1: Do you think there's some connection between chess and the
Speaker 1: stem field because you know, girls get so interested in
Speaker 1: math and science and then so often along the way
Speaker 1: they drop up. Yeah, it's interesting, why is that? But
Speaker 1: I think there are going to be more and more
Speaker 1: girls in the stem field also, first of all, because
Speaker 1: it can be an interesting way of having family and
Speaker 1: work because you can work from home much easier. I
Speaker 1: think in many of those fields. Yes, hopefully changes coming forward.
Speaker 1: I know that today you are focused on the international
Speaker 1: promotion of the sport um that you've written books. The
Speaker 1: Judith Pulgar Chess Foundation was established several years ago and
Speaker 1: you've got the Chess Festival coming up. Tell us about
Speaker 1: it and what's its mission. Yeah. I established my Chess
Speaker 1: Foundation in two thousand twelve and we are focusing on
Speaker 1: promoting chess and specifically chess in education for kids. And
Speaker 1: we have the Global Chess Festival, which is aiming to
Speaker 1: share the passion for chess with the rest of the world.
Speaker 1: So we have the slogan of Chess connects Us. It's
Speaker 1: going to be in the Hungarian National Gallery with the
Speaker 1: different conferences on chess on education, also about creativity and
Speaker 1: innovation and connecting to science and chess. We're also going
Speaker 1: to have some demo workshops how chess and mass connect
Speaker 1: how coding is connecting. Also with my educational program is
Speaker 1: going to be shown to the big audience, and we're
Speaker 1: going to be having also online activities apart from the
Speaker 1: chess tournament for kids and for everybody else for adults generally.
Speaker 1: We have another thread of the festival, which is that
Speaker 1: we have it in Budapest, but we want to inspire
Speaker 1: from every little city, everybody who is a little bit
Speaker 1: attached to chess. If they have organized an event, whether
Speaker 1: it's a chess fashion show or a chess film is projected,
Speaker 1: or whether it's chess tournament, chess simultaneous exhibition, anything related
Speaker 1: to chess, if they send it to us, we are
Speaker 1: uploading their information also on our website, and we do
Speaker 1: hope that eventually within years we're going to have this
Speaker 1: special day of second Saturday of each October where the
Speaker 1: whole world, in the smallest cities, played chess or have
Speaker 1: chess related activities at the same time. So exciting. It's
Speaker 1: there one book that you've written that you would recommend
Speaker 1: to our listeners. If they wanted to get interested in chess. Uh. Well,
Speaker 1: I've been writing about my life of more than three
Speaker 1: decades of of my career with stories and chess games
Speaker 1: and puzzles is the Judith paulgar Teaches Chess series. But
Speaker 1: this is already for for those who who play on
Speaker 1: a certain level like a club player or so. My
Speaker 1: other book which is for beginners for kids, it's only
Speaker 1: in Hungarian, So this is what I can offer for now,
Speaker 1: but I have also on the courses on internet. Well,
Speaker 1: I regret that we're coming to the end of our conversation,
Speaker 1: but I did want to ask you before we close,
Speaker 1: what makes you optimistic today about women's participation in chess.
Speaker 1: We're making progress, as you've said, coming a long way
Speaker 1: from the days when you were a little girl. But
Speaker 1: just how how do you see the future for women
Speaker 1: in chess. Well, obviously it has to improve, but it
Speaker 1: did already quite significantly. Nowadays there are more events for
Speaker 1: ladies and the bigger price funds, which also makes a difference.
Speaker 1: But still I do hope that there are going to
Speaker 1: be more girls and women later who feel that they
Speaker 1: want to be really the best in the sport and
Speaker 1: the best they can be not only between ladies, and
Speaker 1: this is what I'm working hard, and I like to
Speaker 1: motivate the girls, especially youngsters, that they should believe in themselves.
Speaker 1: They should be having high expectations from themselves. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, I think it's very important that their
Speaker 1: coaches and especially their parents should be having great expectations
Speaker 1: and support their daughters that they should become the best
Speaker 1: they can, so don't limit them. That's a wonderful message
Speaker 1: to close on and a great lesson no matter what
Speaker 1: the pursuit in which one is engaged. Thank you for
Speaker 1: being the inspiration that you are, for talking with us today,
Speaker 1: for making this sport come alive, and for being the
Speaker 1: greatest female chess player of all time. Judith Pulgar, thank
Speaker 1: you so much. Thank you very much. What a treat
Speaker 1: and an education to talk to chess legend Judith Polgar.
Speaker 1: There are three things I took from that conversation. First,
Speaker 1: Judith Polgar offers a recipe for success for children. It's
Speaker 1: a mix of early encouragement, positive feedback, and using initial
Speaker 1: winds to build a confidence that leads to more win
Speaker 1: and Second, Judith says it's important to challenge girls to
Speaker 1: be the best at whatever they do, not only to
Speaker 1: be the best among girls or among boys, but to
Speaker 1: be the best period. Finally, if we want girls to
Speaker 1: attain the heights, we need to set their expectations high.
Speaker 1: Yes you can win a Nobel Prize. Yes you can
Speaker 1: be a chess grandmaster. When girls dream big and they
Speaker 1: have support, they can sore. If all this has you
Speaker 1: curious about chess, check out Judith Polgar's Global Chess Festival,
Speaker 1: which starts on October in Budapest. You can participate online.
Speaker 1: Visit Global Chess Festival dot com and tune in next
Speaker 1: time to hear about our next featured woman and discuss
Speaker 1: of her why she's one of Seneca's one hundred Women
Speaker 1: to Hear. Seneca's one hundred Women to Hear is a
Speaker 1: collaboration between the Seneca Women Podcast Network and I Heart Radio,
Speaker 1: with support from founding partner PNG. Have a Great Day,