WEBVTT - Cold Wallets Are a Hot Item for Crypto Users

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg Crypto and Daily Bloomberg. I heard podcast

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg News. It's Tuesday, September six. Sometimes it feels like

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<v Speaker 1>everywhere you look there's somehow yet another crypto hack happening.

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<v Speaker 1>By some estimates, major crypto hacks two have cost the

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<v Speaker 1>industry nearly two billion dollars this year alone, and those

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<v Speaker 1>headline numbers don't even typically take account of the smaller

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<v Speaker 1>exploits the target individual consumer accounts, so the real number

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<v Speaker 1>is probably way bigger. In light of all this digital theft,

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<v Speaker 1>crypto holders, the venture capitalists who invest in crypto companies,

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<v Speaker 1>and the leaders of those organizations seem to only be

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<v Speaker 1>focusing on security. So how should people who hold crypto

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<v Speaker 1>protect their assets and what kinds of security measures are

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<v Speaker 1>currently in focus in the industry. Joining me now is

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Reports to Hannah Miller. We've really seen a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of people in the industry come together to encourage safer,

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<v Speaker 1>more secure usage of crypto. Hannah, always a pleasure to

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<v Speaker 1>have you on the show. Thank you for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>We're going to talk about security again. I feel like

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<v Speaker 1>we talked about security a lot, but I think it's

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<v Speaker 1>because crypto seems to be bad at it. So, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>in the time since we last talked about security, there

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<v Speaker 1>have been several more hacks worth several hundred million dollars,

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<v Speaker 1>so it feels like a relevant thing for us to

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<v Speaker 1>be discussing. One of the stories that you wrote recently

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<v Speaker 1>on this topic was about people turning to what are

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<v Speaker 1>known as hardware wallets in response to this steady stream

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<v Speaker 1>of hacks and scams. What exactly is a hardware wallet?

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<v Speaker 1>How do the work? Yeah, so think of something like

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<v Speaker 1>a USB stick or you know, some of them even

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<v Speaker 1>look like a credit card. These are physical devices that

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<v Speaker 1>protect the private keys, which are essentially the passwords that

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<v Speaker 1>you would need to access your crypto holdings. And they

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<v Speaker 1>keep these passwords offline. So that's why they're called cold

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<v Speaker 1>wallets or hardware wallets. These are physical devices that keep

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<v Speaker 1>your private keys offline. And what's the advantage of having

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<v Speaker 1>your private keys offline? So like, if I, let's say

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<v Speaker 1>I have my private keys in my email or my

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<v Speaker 1>job books, like, what could possibly go wrong? Well, the

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<v Speaker 1>Internet is a scary place. So hardware wallets add another

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<v Speaker 1>layer of protection that keeps your keys safe from hackers.

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<v Speaker 1>There are still ways that hardware wallets can be compromised,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's much more challenging than with an online wallet

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<v Speaker 1>that might have an error in its code or something

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<v Speaker 1>where a third party provider that's working with the wallet

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<v Speaker 1>has a security flaw. We've seen with a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>these hacks, people connect their digital wallets using a link

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<v Speaker 1>that they think is safe, that is from you know,

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<v Speaker 1>an official crypto source or someone in the industry, and

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<v Speaker 1>it ends up exposing their wallet and their assets get wiped.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a really scary thing. So this really plays into

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<v Speaker 1>this idea of you know, not your keys, not your coins,

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<v Speaker 1>where if you are not in physical, solitary protected possession

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<v Speaker 1>of the things that able you to access your crypto,

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<v Speaker 1>they're not really yours. Right, So that if if you

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<v Speaker 1>have your crypto stored in one of these digital wallets

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<v Speaker 1>they're describing and somebody hacks that, well, you know, tough

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<v Speaker 1>cookies for you, there's sort of no recourse or real

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<v Speaker 1>ability for you to get that back. Well, with some

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<v Speaker 1>of these digital wallets, you do manage your keys, they're

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<v Speaker 1>self custody wallets, and that would fall into the category

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<v Speaker 1>of this, these are your keys, this is your crypto.

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<v Speaker 1>But what a lot of people go for our digital

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<v Speaker 1>wallets that are managed by you know, exchange. For example,

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<v Speaker 1>both Finance and coin base have wallet options where you

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<v Speaker 1>put your crypto in them, but the exchange itself controls

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<v Speaker 1>and manages the keys. And so some people would say, well,

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<v Speaker 1>those aren't your keys, that's not your crypto. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>your crypto is vulnerable, even though you may trust this

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<v Speaker 1>exchange and you know they haven't stolen from you in

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<v Speaker 1>the past or anything like that. And even if it's

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<v Speaker 1>not a question of them stealing from you, even if

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<v Speaker 1>we were talking about companies that have developed a pretty

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<v Speaker 1>reputable track record, there is still the possibility that they

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<v Speaker 1>could themselves be compromised. Is that the concern? That is

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<v Speaker 1>a concern? You know, there are other options to Like

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<v Speaker 1>people have been putting their crypto into lending platforms. Uh

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<v Speaker 1>So we saw that with Voyager and Celsius, and then

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<v Speaker 1>when these platforms had to freeze withdrawals, people were not

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<v Speaker 1>able to access their holdings or get their money back out.

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<v Speaker 1>So with all these factors coming together, people are turning

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<v Speaker 1>to hardware wallets. They want these cold wallets that give

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<v Speaker 1>them more control over their crypto and keep it more secure. Here. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>one of the things that's interesting about this idea of

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<v Speaker 1>a hardware wallet, you know, you describe them as like

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<v Speaker 1>they could be a USB stick, they could be something

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<v Speaker 1>that looks more like a traditional credit card. This could

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<v Speaker 1>also just be something you've written down in a piece

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<v Speaker 1>of paper that's like, these are my keys and nobody

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<v Speaker 1>else has access to them. So it doesn't necessarily have

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<v Speaker 1>to be like a device. You're referencing an O G

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<v Speaker 1>paper wallet, So people do do that. You know, that

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<v Speaker 1>is like considered to be a type of wallet. It's

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<v Speaker 1>a very cool, but yeah, the big issue is what

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<v Speaker 1>if I lose this piece of paper? What if I

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<v Speaker 1>lose you know, these devices, so you always have to

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<v Speaker 1>have backups or maybe have another trusted person you know,

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<v Speaker 1>what your keys are. But yeah, I mean these hardware wallets,

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<v Speaker 1>they're really great and that they're these nice small devices.

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<v Speaker 1>They're easily transportable, but they can be easy to lose,

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<v Speaker 1>and people also don't like paying money to get them.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like, give me, give me free security that is

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<v Speaker 1>super robust and you know, super convenient. Those three things

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<v Speaker 1>are rarely true at once, Right, the most secure solutions

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<v Speaker 1>for something are often the least convenient because that source

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<v Speaker 1>of the point. You want to make it hard and

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<v Speaker 1>annoying for somebody to hack you. And as as I

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<v Speaker 1>listened to you talk about this, I'm reminded of the

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<v Speaker 1>very similar conversation that folks have about password security. And

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<v Speaker 1>you know the fact that a best practice is using

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<v Speaker 1>not just two factor authentication or multi factor authentication, but

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<v Speaker 1>using physical multi factor authentication in the form of like

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<v Speaker 1>a USB thing that you plug into your computer, and

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<v Speaker 1>if that's not there, you don't do it. And then

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<v Speaker 1>people either don't want to do that because it's annoying,

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<v Speaker 1>and if you switch computers and you don't have it,

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<v Speaker 1>you can't log into your thing or you lose the thing.

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<v Speaker 1>We as a species seemed to be quite bad at

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<v Speaker 1>balancing this trade off between security and convenience. So how

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<v Speaker 1>are folks who work in and around bitcoin and crypto

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<v Speaker 1>helping consumer adoption? Like, what are the strategies they're trying

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<v Speaker 1>to use here? Yeah, I mean, you really touched on

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<v Speaker 1>this idea that people choose the path of least resistance.

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<v Speaker 1>They're gonna want to get that app that you can

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<v Speaker 1>download easily online and you know, jump on board with

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<v Speaker 1>it and just immediately start, you know, using it. With

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<v Speaker 1>hardware wallets, you might have to order it online wait

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<v Speaker 1>a few days. But we have seen moves by hardware

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<v Speaker 1>wallet makers to make these devices more accessible. Ledger, for example,

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<v Speaker 1>which is a really big startup based in France, they

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<v Speaker 1>create a hardware wallet. You can buy their product at

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<v Speaker 1>best Buy. You can drive on over there, get it

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<v Speaker 1>in less than an hour, you know, and have it

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<v Speaker 1>and start using it. So they're kind of making these

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<v Speaker 1>very consumer friendly products. They ran a promotion after a

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<v Speaker 1>big hack involving a Salana based wallet. You know, they're

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<v Speaker 1>doing a lot of outreach on Twitter. They're making these

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<v Speaker 1>devices look cute with different designs, and then you have

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<v Speaker 1>people within the industry advocating for the use of these

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<v Speaker 1>hardware wallets. We saw after this Alatta wallet hack, the

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<v Speaker 1>Salona Foundation urged people to get hardware wallets, start using

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<v Speaker 1>hardware wallets. So we've really seen a lot of people

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<v Speaker 1>in the industry come together to encourage safer, more secure

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<v Speaker 1>usage of crypto. Coming up. How the crypto industry is

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<v Speaker 1>approaching the need for better security measures. With Bloomberger porta

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<v Speaker 1>Hannah Miller. Now I want to go back to something

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<v Speaker 1>that you said a little bit ago, which is that

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<v Speaker 1>hardware wallets are still potentially vulnerable. I remember in I

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<v Speaker 1>think it was late twenty Ledger, who you mentioned, the

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<v Speaker 1>French startup, were themselves compromised in kind of slightly diabolical way,

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<v Speaker 1>which is that their servers were affected by a breach,

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<v Speaker 1>and then that you know what they described as an

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<v Speaker 1>unauthorized third party We're able to access their software which

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<v Speaker 1>they used to power some of those wallets, which could

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<v Speaker 1>have potentially compromised those wallets. Now that's a degree of sophistication,

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<v Speaker 1>but as we heard our colleague Jeff Stone on the

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<v Speaker 1>Cybersecurity Desks say, it's also not outside the realm of

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<v Speaker 1>possibility that these things are going to happen. If you

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<v Speaker 1>have nation state hackers operating out of places like North

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<v Speaker 1>Korea who realized that hacking crypto is a good profitable

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<v Speaker 1>way forward, this is like the level of risk that

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<v Speaker 1>folks who are using crypto in any form need to

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<v Speaker 1>get comfortable with. Can you keep up with the technology

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<v Speaker 1>that hackers are using to get into new spaces, Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>of course. I mean, you know, hikers are always hiking

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<v Speaker 1>in the exactly the same way. You know, the problem

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<v Speaker 1>is education in the space, and you know, people are

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<v Speaker 1>understanding that how many people are really prepared for going

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<v Speaker 1>up against North Korean hackers? Though, Like I just I

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<v Speaker 1>feel like across the industry that seems like something that's

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<v Speaker 1>not discussed at that level very often. Yeah, it is

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<v Speaker 1>definitely a thing that's becoming more prominent within the industry.

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<v Speaker 1>People are getting worried, and that's why I think we've

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<v Speaker 1>seen a lot of interest grow in blockchains to purity startups,

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<v Speaker 1>even as fundraising has declined within the crypto industry more broadly,

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<v Speaker 1>there are still strong interest in security startups. Ledger, for example,

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<v Speaker 1>is looking to raise you another huge round. We have

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<v Speaker 1>seen some other smaller companies come to prominence, So people

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<v Speaker 1>are wanting to tackle these issues. You know. One of

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<v Speaker 1>the people I spoke to for my wallet article is

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<v Speaker 1>with how Born, a blockchain security firm, and they are

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<v Speaker 1>so active and just advising startups working with major crypto

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<v Speaker 1>companies to build better security solutions. So this is something

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<v Speaker 1>the industry is actively working on. Why are they working

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<v Speaker 1>on it now? Is it a response to the sort

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<v Speaker 1>of the threat or potential of regulation, is that the

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<v Speaker 1>people are finally tired of losing hundreds of millions of

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<v Speaker 1>dollars at a time. Yeah, I think just these hacks

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<v Speaker 1>keep happening there, keep happening to, you know, just regular

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<v Speaker 1>people who might not know a ton about crypto. There

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<v Speaker 1>is a lack of consumer protection and regulation around this area.

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<v Speaker 1>So I think people are coming together and kind of

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<v Speaker 1>preparing for greater regulation and just greater focus on the

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<v Speaker 1>industry in general. I mean, hacks get reported on all

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<v Speaker 1>the time. Crypto Twitter is super active in talking about them.

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<v Speaker 1>There's just a bigger spotlight on the industry and issues

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<v Speaker 1>within it. The last time that we talked about this,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, one of the things that you said was

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<v Speaker 1>just like, nobody should ever click on any links, and

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<v Speaker 1>which there's advice I try to give to my friends

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<v Speaker 1>and family as well, but they're like, but the whole Internet.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm like, yeah, I know. It's a problem in terms

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<v Speaker 1>of other than you know, folks having the ability or

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<v Speaker 1>the relative degree of savvyists to switch over to you know,

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<v Speaker 1>solutions like o G paper wallets or or hardware wallets.

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<v Speaker 1>What are some of the other types of consumer friendly

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<v Speaker 1>guidance you have seen out there or at least not

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<v Speaker 1>consumer unfriendly. I would say, yeah, no, I would say

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<v Speaker 1>that people just need to be more suspicious us. I've

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<v Speaker 1>seen a lot of people on crypto Twitter, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>sounding the alert when a hack happens. Um, We've seen

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<v Speaker 1>you know, security firms like Curtic they run these crypto

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<v Speaker 1>alert accounts that actually, you know, tell people when a

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<v Speaker 1>hack is happening. So I think just really paying attention

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<v Speaker 1>to what's going on and really thinking before you click,

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<v Speaker 1>because a lot of these websites that have these links

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<v Speaker 1>mimic those of real crypto platforms and really down to

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<v Speaker 1>the letter. So it's it's something that people have to

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<v Speaker 1>really pay attention to. And you know, there are even

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<v Speaker 1>you know, security courses you can take online that help

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<v Speaker 1>educate you on how to to best navigate the industry

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<v Speaker 1>and things like that that could be helpful for for

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<v Speaker 1>users to take advantage of, you know, long story shorts.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a question of when somebody will try to come

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<v Speaker 1>for you with something fraudulent or scam as opposed to

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<v Speaker 1>if yes, I'm not pleasant notes, I think I think

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<v Speaker 1>we shall leave it there. Thank you so much, Hannah,

0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:08.240
<v Speaker 1>always a pleasure. Thank you You can find more of

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<v Speaker 1>Hannah's reporting on the Bloomberg terminal, on Bloomberg dot com

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<v Speaker 1>or on Twitter. She's at h G. Miller twenty nine.

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<v Speaker 1>On the next episode of Bloomberg Crypto. Singapore established itself

0:13:23.600 --> 0:13:27.480
<v Speaker 1>early on as a hub for crypto and for blockchain technology. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>like many regulatory regimes around the world, it's dealing with

0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:34.720
<v Speaker 1>the aftermath of several high profile collapses. We'll dive into

0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:43.040
<v Speaker 1>these issues that are being faced by Singaporean regulators. This

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<v Speaker 1>is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast from Bloomberg and I

0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:49.560
<v Speaker 1>Heart Radio. For more shows from I Heart Radio, visit

0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:52.600
<v Speaker 1>the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:56.679
<v Speaker 1>get your podcasts. Send us your comments, questions, or suggestions

0:13:56.679 --> 0:13:59.720
<v Speaker 1>for the show to Crypto at Bloomberg dot net or

0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:04.480
<v Speaker 1>find us on Twitter. We're at Crypto. The supervising producer

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<v Speaker 1>of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky Verglina. Our senior producer is

0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:12.400
<v Speaker 1>Janet Babin. Our producer is Sharon Barriro. Associate producer is

0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:16.880
<v Speaker 1>Ty Butler. Desta wonder At is our engineer. Original music

0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:21.440
<v Speaker 1>by Leo Sidron. I'm Stacy Marie Schmal. We'll be back

0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:21.880
<v Speaker 1>tomorrow