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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Crypto and Daily Bloomberg. I heard podcast

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Speaker 1: and I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg News. It's Tuesday, September six. Sometimes it feels like

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Speaker 1: everywhere you look there's somehow yet another crypto hack happening.

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Speaker 1: By some estimates, major crypto hacks two have cost the

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Speaker 1: industry nearly two billion dollars this year alone, and those

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Speaker 1: headline numbers don't even typically take account of the smaller

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Speaker 1: exploits the target individual consumer accounts, so the real number

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Speaker 1: is probably way bigger. In light of all this digital theft,

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Speaker 1: crypto holders, the venture capitalists who invest in crypto companies,

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Speaker 1: and the leaders of those organizations seem to only be

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Speaker 1: focusing on security. So how should people who hold crypto

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Speaker 1: protect their assets and what kinds of security measures are

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Speaker 1: currently in focus in the industry. Joining me now is

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Reports to Hannah Miller. We've really seen a lot

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Speaker 1: of people in the industry come together to encourage safer,

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Speaker 1: more secure usage of crypto. Hannah, always a pleasure to

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Speaker 1: have you on the show. Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about security again. I feel like

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Speaker 1: we talked about security a lot, but I think it's

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Speaker 1: because crypto seems to be bad at it. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: in the time since we last talked about security, there

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Speaker 1: have been several more hacks worth several hundred million dollars,

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Speaker 1: so it feels like a relevant thing for us to

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Speaker 1: be discussing. One of the stories that you wrote recently

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Speaker 1: on this topic was about people turning to what are

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Speaker 1: known as hardware wallets in response to this steady stream

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Speaker 1: of hacks and scams. What exactly is a hardware wallet?

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Speaker 1: How do the work? Yeah, so think of something like

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Speaker 1: a USB stick or you know, some of them even

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Speaker 1: look like a credit card. These are physical devices that

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Speaker 1: protect the private keys, which are essentially the passwords that

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Speaker 1: you would need to access your crypto holdings. And they

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Speaker 1: keep these passwords offline. So that's why they're called cold

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Speaker 1: wallets or hardware wallets. These are physical devices that keep

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Speaker 1: your private keys offline. And what's the advantage of having

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Speaker 1: your private keys offline? So like, if I, let's say

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Speaker 1: I have my private keys in my email or my

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Speaker 1: job books, like, what could possibly go wrong? Well, the

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Speaker 1: Internet is a scary place. So hardware wallets add another

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Speaker 1: layer of protection that keeps your keys safe from hackers.

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Speaker 1: There are still ways that hardware wallets can be compromised,

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Speaker 1: but it's much more challenging than with an online wallet

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Speaker 1: that might have an error in its code or something

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Speaker 1: where a third party provider that's working with the wallet

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Speaker 1: has a security flaw. We've seen with a lot of

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Speaker 1: these hacks, people connect their digital wallets using a link

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Speaker 1: that they think is safe, that is from you know,

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Speaker 1: an official crypto source or someone in the industry, and

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Speaker 1: it ends up exposing their wallet and their assets get wiped.

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Speaker 1: It's a really scary thing. So this really plays into

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Speaker 1: this idea of you know, not your keys, not your coins,

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Speaker 1: where if you are not in physical, solitary protected possession

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Speaker 1: of the things that able you to access your crypto,

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Speaker 1: they're not really yours. Right, So that if if you

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Speaker 1: have your crypto stored in one of these digital wallets

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Speaker 1: they're describing and somebody hacks that, well, you know, tough

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Speaker 1: cookies for you, there's sort of no recourse or real

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Speaker 1: ability for you to get that back. Well, with some

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Speaker 1: of these digital wallets, you do manage your keys, they're

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Speaker 1: self custody wallets, and that would fall into the category

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Speaker 1: of this, these are your keys, this is your crypto.

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Speaker 1: But what a lot of people go for our digital

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Speaker 1: wallets that are managed by you know, exchange. For example,

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Speaker 1: both Finance and coin base have wallet options where you

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Speaker 1: put your crypto in them, but the exchange itself controls

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Speaker 1: and manages the keys. And so some people would say, well,

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Speaker 1: those aren't your keys, that's not your crypto. You know,

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Speaker 1: your crypto is vulnerable, even though you may trust this

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Speaker 1: exchange and you know they haven't stolen from you in

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Speaker 1: the past or anything like that. And even if it's

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Speaker 1: not a question of them stealing from you, even if

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Speaker 1: we were talking about companies that have developed a pretty

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Speaker 1: reputable track record, there is still the possibility that they

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Speaker 1: could themselves be compromised. Is that the concern? That is

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Speaker 1: a concern? You know, there are other options to Like

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Speaker 1: people have been putting their crypto into lending platforms. Uh

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Speaker 1: So we saw that with Voyager and Celsius, and then

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Speaker 1: when these platforms had to freeze withdrawals, people were not

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Speaker 1: able to access their holdings or get their money back out.

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Speaker 1: So with all these factors coming together, people are turning

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Speaker 1: to hardware wallets. They want these cold wallets that give

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Speaker 1: them more control over their crypto and keep it more secure. Here. Now,

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Speaker 1: one of the things that's interesting about this idea of

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Speaker 1: a hardware wallet, you know, you describe them as like

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Speaker 1: they could be a USB stick, they could be something

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Speaker 1: that looks more like a traditional credit card. This could

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Speaker 1: also just be something you've written down in a piece

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Speaker 1: of paper that's like, these are my keys and nobody

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Speaker 1: else has access to them. So it doesn't necessarily have

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Speaker 1: to be like a device. You're referencing an O G

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Speaker 1: paper wallet, So people do do that. You know, that

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Speaker 1: is like considered to be a type of wallet. It's

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Speaker 1: a very cool, but yeah, the big issue is what

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Speaker 1: if I lose this piece of paper? What if I

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Speaker 1: lose you know, these devices, so you always have to

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Speaker 1: have backups or maybe have another trusted person you know,

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Speaker 1: what your keys are. But yeah, I mean these hardware wallets,

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Speaker 1: they're really great and that they're these nice small devices.

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Speaker 1: They're easily transportable, but they can be easy to lose,

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Speaker 1: and people also don't like paying money to get them.

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Speaker 1: It's like, give me, give me free security that is

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Speaker 1: super robust and you know, super convenient. Those three things

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Speaker 1: are rarely true at once, Right, the most secure solutions

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Speaker 1: for something are often the least convenient because that source

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Speaker 1: of the point. You want to make it hard and

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Speaker 1: annoying for somebody to hack you. And as as I

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Speaker 1: listened to you talk about this, I'm reminded of the

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Speaker 1: very similar conversation that folks have about password security. And

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Speaker 1: you know the fact that a best practice is using

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Speaker 1: not just two factor authentication or multi factor authentication, but

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Speaker 1: using physical multi factor authentication in the form of like

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Speaker 1: a USB thing that you plug into your computer, and

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Speaker 1: if that's not there, you don't do it. And then

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Speaker 1: people either don't want to do that because it's annoying,

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Speaker 1: and if you switch computers and you don't have it,

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Speaker 1: you can't log into your thing or you lose the thing.

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Speaker 1: We as a species seemed to be quite bad at

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Speaker 1: balancing this trade off between security and convenience. So how

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Speaker 1: are folks who work in and around bitcoin and crypto

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Speaker 1: helping consumer adoption? Like, what are the strategies they're trying

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Speaker 1: to use here? Yeah, I mean, you really touched on

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Speaker 1: this idea that people choose the path of least resistance.

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Speaker 1: They're gonna want to get that app that you can

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Speaker 1: download easily online and you know, jump on board with

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Speaker 1: it and just immediately start, you know, using it. With

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Speaker 1: hardware wallets, you might have to order it online wait

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Speaker 1: a few days. But we have seen moves by hardware

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Speaker 1: wallet makers to make these devices more accessible. Ledger, for example,

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Speaker 1: which is a really big startup based in France, they

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Speaker 1: create a hardware wallet. You can buy their product at

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Speaker 1: best Buy. You can drive on over there, get it

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Speaker 1: in less than an hour, you know, and have it

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Speaker 1: and start using it. So they're kind of making these

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Speaker 1: very consumer friendly products. They ran a promotion after a

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Speaker 1: big hack involving a Salana based wallet. You know, they're

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Speaker 1: doing a lot of outreach on Twitter. They're making these

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Speaker 1: devices look cute with different designs, and then you have

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Speaker 1: people within the industry advocating for the use of these

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Speaker 1: hardware wallets. We saw after this Alatta wallet hack, the

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Speaker 1: Salona Foundation urged people to get hardware wallets, start using

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Speaker 1: hardware wallets. So we've really seen a lot of people

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Speaker 1: in the industry come together to encourage safer, more secure

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Speaker 1: usage of crypto. Coming up. How the crypto industry is

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Speaker 1: approaching the need for better security measures. With Bloomberger porta

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Speaker 1: Hannah Miller. Now I want to go back to something

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Speaker 1: that you said a little bit ago, which is that

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Speaker 1: hardware wallets are still potentially vulnerable. I remember in I

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Speaker 1: think it was late twenty Ledger, who you mentioned, the

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Speaker 1: French startup, were themselves compromised in kind of slightly diabolical way,

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Speaker 1: which is that their servers were affected by a breach,

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Speaker 1: and then that you know what they described as an

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Speaker 1: unauthorized third party We're able to access their software which

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Speaker 1: they used to power some of those wallets, which could

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Speaker 1: have potentially compromised those wallets. Now that's a degree of sophistication,

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Speaker 1: but as we heard our colleague Jeff Stone on the

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Speaker 1: Cybersecurity Desks say, it's also not outside the realm of

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Speaker 1: possibility that these things are going to happen. If you

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Speaker 1: have nation state hackers operating out of places like North

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Speaker 1: Korea who realized that hacking crypto is a good profitable

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Speaker 1: way forward, this is like the level of risk that

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Speaker 1: folks who are using crypto in any form need to

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Speaker 1: get comfortable with. Can you keep up with the technology

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Speaker 1: that hackers are using to get into new spaces, Yes,

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Speaker 1: of course. I mean, you know, hikers are always hiking

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Speaker 1: in the exactly the same way. You know, the problem

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Speaker 1: is education in the space, and you know, people are

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Speaker 1: understanding that how many people are really prepared for going

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Speaker 1: up against North Korean hackers? Though, Like I just I

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Speaker 1: feel like across the industry that seems like something that's

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Speaker 1: not discussed at that level very often. Yeah, it is

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Speaker 1: definitely a thing that's becoming more prominent within the industry.

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Speaker 1: People are getting worried, and that's why I think we've

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Speaker 1: seen a lot of interest grow in blockchains to purity startups,

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Speaker 1: even as fundraising has declined within the crypto industry more broadly,

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Speaker 1: there are still strong interest in security startups. Ledger, for example,

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Speaker 1: is looking to raise you another huge round. We have

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Speaker 1: seen some other smaller companies come to prominence, So people

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Speaker 1: are wanting to tackle these issues. You know. One of

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Speaker 1: the people I spoke to for my wallet article is

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Speaker 1: with how Born, a blockchain security firm, and they are

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Speaker 1: so active and just advising startups working with major crypto

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Speaker 1: companies to build better security solutions. So this is something

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Speaker 1: the industry is actively working on. Why are they working

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Speaker 1: on it now? Is it a response to the sort

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Speaker 1: of the threat or potential of regulation, is that the

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Speaker 1: people are finally tired of losing hundreds of millions of

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Speaker 1: dollars at a time. Yeah, I think just these hacks

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Speaker 1: keep happening there, keep happening to, you know, just regular

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Speaker 1: people who might not know a ton about crypto. There

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Speaker 1: is a lack of consumer protection and regulation around this area.

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Speaker 1: So I think people are coming together and kind of

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Speaker 1: preparing for greater regulation and just greater focus on the

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Speaker 1: industry in general. I mean, hacks get reported on all

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Speaker 1: the time. Crypto Twitter is super active in talking about them.

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Speaker 1: There's just a bigger spotlight on the industry and issues

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Speaker 1: within it. The last time that we talked about this,

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Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that you said was

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Speaker 1: just like, nobody should ever click on any links, and

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Speaker 1: which there's advice I try to give to my friends

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Speaker 1: and family as well, but they're like, but the whole Internet.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, I know. It's a problem in terms

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Speaker 1: of other than you know, folks having the ability or

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Speaker 1: the relative degree of savvyists to switch over to you know,

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Speaker 1: solutions like o G paper wallets or or hardware wallets.

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Speaker 1: What are some of the other types of consumer friendly

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Speaker 1: guidance you have seen out there or at least not

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Speaker 1: consumer unfriendly. I would say, yeah, no, I would say

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Speaker 1: that people just need to be more suspicious us. I've

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Speaker 1: seen a lot of people on crypto Twitter, you know,

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Speaker 1: sounding the alert when a hack happens. Um, We've seen

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Speaker 1: you know, security firms like Curtic they run these crypto

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Speaker 1: alert accounts that actually, you know, tell people when a

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Speaker 1: hack is happening. So I think just really paying attention

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Speaker 1: to what's going on and really thinking before you click,

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Speaker 1: because a lot of these websites that have these links

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Speaker 1: mimic those of real crypto platforms and really down to

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Speaker 1: the letter. So it's it's something that people have to

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Speaker 1: really pay attention to. And you know, there are even

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Speaker 1: you know, security courses you can take online that help

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Speaker 1: educate you on how to to best navigate the industry

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Speaker 1: and things like that that could be helpful for for

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Speaker 1: users to take advantage of, you know, long story shorts.

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Speaker 1: It's a question of when somebody will try to come

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Speaker 1: for you with something fraudulent or scam as opposed to

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Speaker 1: if yes, I'm not pleasant notes, I think I think

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Speaker 1: we shall leave it there. Thank you so much, Hannah,

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Speaker 1: always a pleasure. Thank you You can find more of

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Speaker 1: Hannah's reporting on the Bloomberg terminal, on Bloomberg dot com

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Speaker 1: or on Twitter. She's at h G. Miller twenty nine.

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Speaker 1: On the next episode of Bloomberg Crypto. Singapore established itself

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Speaker 1: early on as a hub for crypto and for blockchain technology. Now,

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Speaker 1: like many regulatory regimes around the world, it's dealing with

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Speaker 1: the aftermath of several high profile collapses. We'll dive into

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Speaker 1: these issues that are being faced by Singaporean regulators. This

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Speaker 1: is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast from Bloomberg and I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. For more shows from I Heart Radio, visit

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Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

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Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Send us your comments, questions, or suggestions

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Speaker 1: for the show to Crypto at Bloomberg dot net or

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Speaker 1: find us on Twitter. We're at Crypto. The supervising producer

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Speaker 1: of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky Verglina. Our senior producer is

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Speaker 1: Janet Babin. Our producer is Sharon Barriro. Associate producer is

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Speaker 1: Ty Butler. Desta wonder At is our engineer. Original music

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Speaker 1: by Leo Sidron. I'm Stacy Marie Schmal. We'll be back

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Speaker 1: tomorrow