1
00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:15,800
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Bay Village police are seeking

2
00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:19,520
Speaker 1: a little girl who failed to return home from school

3
00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:26,799
Speaker 1: this afternoon. That brief but disturbing message started the search

4
00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:31,880
Speaker 1: for ten year old Amy. I, Nancy Grace, this is

5
00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:34,639
Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at

6
00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:39,040
Speaker 1: Fox Nation and series XM one eleven. First of all,

7
00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,320
Speaker 1: take a listen to our friends at Fox eight. I

8
00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:44,720
Speaker 1: called my mom, who then said no, she had choir

9
00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:48,800
Speaker 1: practice that Friday, which was odd. And then she still

10
00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:51,440
Speaker 1: wasn't home, and I called her again. Amy had called

11
00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:55,080
Speaker 1: her mom that afternoon, apparently in between Jason's two calls,

12
00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:59,080
Speaker 1: apparently to reassure her authorities believe she was with her

13
00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,680
Speaker 1: abductor when she made that call. As time passed, though,

14
00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,080
Speaker 1: when Jason called his mom a second time, the fear grew,

15
00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,119
Speaker 1: and of course I said, everything into motion. Everyone knew

16
00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:14,520
Speaker 1: something was wrong. A massive search ensued. So when she's

17
00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,400
Speaker 1: not home, when she's supposed to be home, everyone began

18
00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:22,840
Speaker 1: feeling uneasy. She was supposed to have choir that afternoon

19
00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:25,559
Speaker 1: on a Friday afternoon, the teen year old little girl

20
00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:31,440
Speaker 1: didn't come home. You're hearing her brother Jason speaking. Take

21
00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,320
Speaker 1: a listen again, to our friends at Foxhate. Amy disappeared

22
00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:36,800
Speaker 1: from that square across the street after meeting a man

23
00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:39,360
Speaker 1: who had called her at home. He indicated that he

24
00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,200
Speaker 1: wanted to help Amy buy a surprise gift for her mother, Margaret,

25
00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:45,080
Speaker 1: who had received her promotion at work. Something that was true,

26
00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:49,240
Speaker 1: and he knew Amy was never seen alive again. Her

27
00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:51,760
Speaker 1: brother Jason was the first person to send something wrong

28
00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,640
Speaker 1: That October day. Amy got out of school about an

29
00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:58,280
Speaker 1: hour earlier than he did, meaning Amy was almost always

30
00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:02,520
Speaker 1: the first one home. I came home to an empty house,

31
00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:07,120
Speaker 1: which was rare. How would the kidnapper know about the

32
00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:11,600
Speaker 1: mom's promotion? Did the ten year old girl unwillingly tell

33
00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:14,960
Speaker 1: him that? How did he know how to reach her?

34
00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:20,200
Speaker 1: All these questions surrounding the disappearance of a beautiful ten

35
00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:25,960
Speaker 1: year old little girl. Amy Mehalvic again, I'm Nancy Grace.

36
00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,160
Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us

37
00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:33,240
Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation and series XM one eleven with

38
00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,000
Speaker 1: me and all star panel to make sense of what

39
00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,440
Speaker 1: we know right now. First of all, straight out to

40
00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:44,640
Speaker 1: special guests joining us news anchor from CBS nineteen Nicole Versansky. Nicole,

41
00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,360
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us and you can find

42
00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:51,679
Speaker 1: her in Nicole Versansky, Cleveland, nineteen Nicole, thanks for being

43
00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:55,920
Speaker 1: with us. Tell me about the afternoon that Amy went missing.

44
00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,639
Speaker 1: Amy ten years old. She's in fifth grade. She rides

45
00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:05,200
Speaker 1: bike to school, and that afternoon, specifically that afternoon, in

46
00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,400
Speaker 1: her class, she had an officer speaking in her class

47
00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:12,600
Speaker 1: about stranger danger. And we know that she left her

48
00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,600
Speaker 1: bike at school and she walked about a block away

49
00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,160
Speaker 1: after she got out of school to meet a man.

50
00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,320
Speaker 1: She told a couple of friends she was going there

51
00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,080
Speaker 1: to meet someone to buy a gift from her mom.

52
00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,840
Speaker 1: And she walks a couple bucks away from school. It's

53
00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:29,800
Speaker 1: an ice cream shop. There's an ice cream shop in

54
00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:34,040
Speaker 1: this plaza. It's a popular after school hangout. And she's

55
00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,960
Speaker 1: seen the last time Amy Mahalovic is seen as two

56
00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,760
Speaker 1: other ten year old boys saw her there with a man.

57
00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:44,960
Speaker 1: She turned toward the parking lot with him, never to

58
00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,480
Speaker 1: be seen again. You're scaring me so much right now,

59
00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:54,120
Speaker 1: because the Twins School is right down the hill from

60
00:03:54,200 --> 00:04:01,560
Speaker 1: a frozen customers like ice cream shop, and anytime between

61
00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:06,240
Speaker 1: twelve and four, you can see a parade of students

62
00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,040
Speaker 1: going up and down that sidewalk. If it's good, a

63
00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:13,040
Speaker 1: little high. You know, it's about maybe a quarter of

64
00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:17,400
Speaker 1: a mile to get there, but it's a hangout and

65
00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:21,120
Speaker 1: they all go there. That's exactly the same picture here.

66
00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,080
Speaker 1: And what's so disturbing about this, Nancy as if you

67
00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:27,440
Speaker 1: talk to Amy's dad, Mark, Amy wasn't one to go

68
00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,359
Speaker 1: hang out and talk to a stranger. She was a

69
00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:34,080
Speaker 1: sweet girl, Mark girl got ais and bees, but she

70
00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,160
Speaker 1: wouldn't go up to someone. She never talked to strangers.

71
00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:41,240
Speaker 1: So the person she was meeting wasn't a stranger to her.

72
00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:45,560
Speaker 1: This is someone she felt she knew and she could trust. Now,

73
00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:50,239
Speaker 1: it's interesting that you say, Nicole Versanski joining us CBS nineteen,

74
00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:54,440
Speaker 1: that it's someone she knew, But you're in my definition

75
00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:58,480
Speaker 1: of someone she knew is very different from a child's

76
00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,440
Speaker 1: idea of someone they know. Because join me right now.

77
00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:06,680
Speaker 1: Del Carson high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville and former

78
00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,840
Speaker 1: FBI agent, author of a rest Proof yourself. You can

79
00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,599
Speaker 1: find him at del Carson law dot com, dell and

80
00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,440
Speaker 1: all your work with the FBI and all my work

81
00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,960
Speaker 1: dealing with child kidnap, child murder, cholm lasstation. You can

82
00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,239
Speaker 1: ask a child, well, who wasn't and they go, well,

83
00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:30,400
Speaker 1: the janitor, or the yardman, or the guy at the

84
00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:35,400
Speaker 1: ice cream shop. They may not even know the name

85
00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:39,360
Speaker 1: of the person, yet they think they know the man

86
00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,560
Speaker 1: at the ice cream shop. He's there almost every afternoon,

87
00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:44,960
Speaker 1: and he's taught to her in the past about her

88
00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,920
Speaker 1: family and her siblings and her dog and her bike.

89
00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:54,640
Speaker 1: And she thinks she knows him, but she doesn't. Children

90
00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,919
Speaker 1: don't think the way we do. That's exactly right. And

91
00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,920
Speaker 1: more to the point, man, you know, the children's frame

92
00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:06,240
Speaker 1: of reference is fairly small, and the result is anybody

93
00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,240
Speaker 1: they know becomes important to them when they wouldn't be

94
00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:12,159
Speaker 1: important to adults at all. You know, that's really interesting

95
00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:13,680
Speaker 1: that you said that. Let me go to doctor Jerry

96
00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:19,440
Speaker 1: Crossen joining US psychologists and Professor Saint Leo University, consultant

97
00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,600
Speaker 1: author of Operation SS. Doctor Jory, what do you make

98
00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,680
Speaker 1: of what Carson just said that a child's world is

99
00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:30,479
Speaker 1: so small that the people that they do know have

100
00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,960
Speaker 1: a significant importance to them. Yeah. And the big point too,

101
00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,480
Speaker 1: is that they're very trusting. And when you look at

102
00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:41,039
Speaker 1: how freely we give trust into other people, you know,

103
00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:43,920
Speaker 1: just a little bit of information if this person were

104
00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,720
Speaker 1: to say something that she may know about some of

105
00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:51,280
Speaker 1: her friends or her parents or something like that. You see,

106
00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,960
Speaker 1: there's that connection now, and with that connection now comes trust.

107
00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:59,440
Speaker 1: You know. Nicole Versanski is joining US News anchor, CBS nineteen. Nicole,

108
00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:01,479
Speaker 1: you told me that she mentioned to several of her

109
00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,640
Speaker 1: friends that she who the guy was. She mentioned to

110
00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:07,039
Speaker 1: two of her friends. She never told her brother, never

111
00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,440
Speaker 1: told her family. And the indication is that this man

112
00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,880
Speaker 1: called her at home at least once, but likely more.

113
00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:19,280
Speaker 1: But she did confide in two friends at school that

114
00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,320
Speaker 1: day that she was going after school to meet this

115
00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,280
Speaker 1: man to buy a gift for her mom for a

116
00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:30,680
Speaker 1: work promotion. So this person, this man, had enough information

117
00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:35,640
Speaker 1: on Amy as far as her mom. Margaret wasn't really promoted,

118
00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:37,920
Speaker 1: she was going from part time to full time, but

119
00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:42,440
Speaker 1: had enough information to know that about Amy and be

120
00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,400
Speaker 1: able to lure her with the promise of you know,

121
00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,040
Speaker 1: here she is. She's a ten year old girl thinking

122
00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:52,280
Speaker 1: she's doing something wonderful for her mom. She'd got a

123
00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,560
Speaker 1: surprise her with a gift, and that breaks your heart

124
00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:57,880
Speaker 1: when you think of just the innocence and the sweet

125
00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:01,560
Speaker 1: act of what she had intended to do. Greg Smith

126
00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,720
Speaker 1: joining me Special Deputy sheriff Johnson County Sheriff's Office and

127
00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:10,000
Speaker 1: executive director of the Kelsey Smith Foundation, named after his daughter,

128
00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:15,400
Speaker 1: who was kidnapped and murdered. Kelsey, Greg thank you for

129
00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:17,880
Speaker 1: being with us. You know, when I'm hearing Nicole for

130
00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:22,440
Speaker 1: Sansky described ten year old Amy, it almost masically want

131
00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:26,880
Speaker 1: to cry because this little girl is so trusting and

132
00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:31,120
Speaker 1: she thinks the kidnapper is going to take her to

133
00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,200
Speaker 1: buy a present for her mom's promotion. Yeah, and that's

134
00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:39,280
Speaker 1: the sad truth of the thing in a number of ways. One,

135
00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,040
Speaker 1: it's too bad that in our society you can't trust

136
00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:47,560
Speaker 1: other people. But two, that's exactly what kids do. I mean,

137
00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:53,160
Speaker 1: I have eight grandkids and you know, they're all so

138
00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,400
Speaker 1: sweet and innocent, and you listen to them talk about

139
00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:58,800
Speaker 1: who their friends are or who they met. And in

140
00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,480
Speaker 1: today's world, now their social media and you know, you

141
00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,760
Speaker 1: can boom somebody appears on a tablet or a phone.

142
00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,560
Speaker 1: And if you've got school age kids, chances are the

143
00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,320
Speaker 1: schools giving you that equipment. So now they're bringing that

144
00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,880
Speaker 1: equipment home because they needed for school, but it can

145
00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,160
Speaker 1: be used for other purposes. So the world has changed

146
00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,120
Speaker 1: and in a lot of ways, not for the butter.

147
00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:25,839
Speaker 1: Her mind was occupied with getting a surprise gift for

148
00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:43,480
Speaker 1: her mother for her mom's promotion. Time Stories with Nancy,

149
00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:50,000
Speaker 1: Grace with Me Doctor Michelle Dupree, who wrote literally wrote

150
00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:56,320
Speaker 1: the book investigating child abuse Field Guide, Doctor Dupree. Very

151
00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:01,360
Speaker 1: often we see a child kidnapper on the uster, get

152
00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,960
Speaker 1: to know the child. It's called grooming, And I guarantee

153
00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,240
Speaker 1: you he got the information out of this child about

154
00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,680
Speaker 1: her mom getting the promotion and then used that as

155
00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:16,839
Speaker 1: a weapon to lure her into leaving her home, her school,

156
00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,680
Speaker 1: the ice cream shop to go off with him to

157
00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:23,160
Speaker 1: get a promotion gift. Yes, Nancy, that's exactly right. And

158
00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:25,840
Speaker 1: that's what they do, is they become friends and I

159
00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,520
Speaker 1: put those in air quotes with that child, and they

160
00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,520
Speaker 1: know things about them, and they seemed like they're very familiar,

161
00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:34,959
Speaker 1: and so they gained that child's trump and the parents

162
00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:39,079
Speaker 1: would have no idea what was going on. Dodgy Dupree

163
00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,240
Speaker 1: because she's a latchkey kid like I was. When we

164
00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:46,920
Speaker 1: got off school, we walked literally over a mile home.

165
00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:49,480
Speaker 1: My mom and dad were both at work. We knew

166
00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:51,120
Speaker 1: how to get into the home and we stayed there

167
00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:53,880
Speaker 1: till they got home or went and played or whatever,

168
00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,720
Speaker 1: and there was not a thought in the world that

169
00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,520
Speaker 1: anything bad could happen. I bet the parents didn't even

170
00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,840
Speaker 1: know this guy existed, that's right. Maybe at least not

171
00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:09,040
Speaker 1: in that capacity. They may have known the person, or

172
00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,880
Speaker 1: they may have been acquainted with him, but certainly they

173
00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,480
Speaker 1: did not know that the child was involved with them.

174
00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:18,319
Speaker 1: Was that each other again, del Carson? Because obviously they

175
00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:22,800
Speaker 1: had met before, because she told her friends, my friend's

176
00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:24,720
Speaker 1: going to take me to buy my mom a gift.

177
00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:29,040
Speaker 1: They had obviously had phone conversations and had met, and

178
00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:31,680
Speaker 1: I bet they met at that ice cream shop. But

179
00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:35,040
Speaker 1: I'll tell you the method of operation here, the MOO

180
00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:39,200
Speaker 1: is a bit unusual, and one wonders whether or not

181
00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:44,440
Speaker 1: this has happened in other locations which would lead you

182
00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:50,080
Speaker 1: to a potential suspect. There were multiple other girls in

183
00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,800
Speaker 1: the same general area who got a phone call, and

184
00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:55,120
Speaker 1: if you talk to detectives on the case, they believe

185
00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,600
Speaker 1: it was from this team. Man, Wow, okay, you're hearing

186
00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,560
Speaker 1: the call over Sansky jump in. I'm so you told

187
00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,120
Speaker 1: me that the coach joining a CBS iteen. I didn't

188
00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,240
Speaker 1: know that. Tell me about that other little girls got

189
00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:10,839
Speaker 1: phone calls. There were calls before and after Amy disappeared.

190
00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,520
Speaker 1: North Omstead is a town just a few miles outside

191
00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:18,400
Speaker 1: of Bay Village. But the only connection investigators were ever

192
00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:22,200
Speaker 1: able to make between these girls and Amy's case is

193
00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,160
Speaker 1: just the proximity that they all lived in the same

194
00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:29,720
Speaker 1: general vicinity. There was no other real link that they

195
00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:34,040
Speaker 1: could ever find between the girls. Nicole ver Sansky joining

196
00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:36,640
Speaker 1: a CBS lighteen, what would he say on the phone

197
00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,959
Speaker 1: to the other girls? It was the same, Emma, I

198
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:42,960
Speaker 1: want to take a shopping It Scott to Bay the

199
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,120
Speaker 1: side guy who's calling ten year old little girls and

200
00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:49,440
Speaker 1: saying I want to take you shopping. Well, the search

201
00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:55,199
Speaker 1: ensued for ten year old little Amy, her family distraught,

202
00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:58,880
Speaker 1: and then twist in the case, take a Little Star

203
00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:02,240
Speaker 1: Friends at Fox eighth. One hundred four days later we

204
00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,040
Speaker 1: find her an count Amy's body was discovered by a

205
00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,240
Speaker 1: jogger in a field in Ashland County, which is about

206
00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:12,559
Speaker 1: fifty miles south of Bay Village. Investigators believe Amy's killer

207
00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,000
Speaker 1: may have been familiar with the area since it's in

208
00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:18,679
Speaker 1: a very remote location about ten feet off roadway right

209
00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:21,800
Speaker 1: in right in this area, Sheriff's deputy Karl Richard was

210
00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:25,280
Speaker 1: the first law enforcement officer unseen thrown on the side

211
00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:29,400
Speaker 1: of the road like trash. That tells me a lot

212
00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,920
Speaker 1: the m O, the MODUSOFTWA, and my method of operation

213
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,840
Speaker 1: of disposal of the body. But also about this remote location,

214
00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,719
Speaker 1: Nicole Versianski joining us CBS nineteen, you know, you were

215
00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:44,240
Speaker 1: just saying that other girls in the general area had

216
00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:46,960
Speaker 1: also been getting calls from an adult mail that wanted

217
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,640
Speaker 1: to take them shopping. He had to put together their

218
00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,480
Speaker 1: names and phone numbers. He had to have contact with

219
00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:56,199
Speaker 1: them to figure out their names and how to locate

220
00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:00,280
Speaker 1: their numbers. He was watching other girls. This may not

221
00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,920
Speaker 1: be his only victim as far as that remote location,

222
00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,080
Speaker 1: because you describe the location for me, Nicole, for Sansky,

223
00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:11,880
Speaker 1: it's in the middle of nowhere, Nancy, and there was nothing.

224
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,760
Speaker 1: This is God's country. This is farm fields that spanned

225
00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,160
Speaker 1: for miles and miles. So the person who did this

226
00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:22,240
Speaker 1: to Amy had to be familiar with that location in

227
00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,160
Speaker 1: Ashlyn County. You don't just stumble upon this field. I

228
00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:29,040
Speaker 1: want to point out a case similar in this aspect

229
00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,400
Speaker 1: at least, and this case is you know, textbooked example

230
00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:36,600
Speaker 1: for so many aspects of murder. Greg Smith joining us

231
00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:41,400
Speaker 1: Johnson County Sheriff's Office is Scott Peterson. That's an example

232
00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,760
Speaker 1: of committing a crime or disposing of evidence in a

233
00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:49,800
Speaker 1: place with which you are familiar. Scott Peterson murdered his

234
00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,960
Speaker 1: wife Lacy and their unborn child, Connor, and he went

235
00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,800
Speaker 1: to one of his old fishing holes to dump the

236
00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:59,920
Speaker 1: body of San Francisco Bay and then places him self

237
00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,760
Speaker 1: at the scene of the murder on the day of

238
00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,440
Speaker 1: the murder. Lacy and Connor wash ashore a couple of

239
00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:14,080
Speaker 1: months later. But that's where he is familiar. That was

240
00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:18,560
Speaker 1: comfortable for him. He felt he knew the area. So

241
00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,640
Speaker 1: I think Greg, that nicoleover Santski's right. Yeah, they I

242
00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:27,040
Speaker 1: mean they look for places that are familiar to them

243
00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,360
Speaker 1: where they do feel comfortable. In addition, I mean those

244
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,400
Speaker 1: of them that do some planning and really think about

245
00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:39,560
Speaker 1: these things, and our career criminals, if they have familiar

246
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,240
Speaker 1: places and they're seen in those familiar places, it also

247
00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,240
Speaker 1: sets up an alibi for them when something is found

248
00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:48,920
Speaker 1: DNA or something else. Well, yeah, but I'm always in

249
00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:51,040
Speaker 1: this area. You're just you're just trying to pend this

250
00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:52,920
Speaker 1: on me because people have seen me here. You know.

251
00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:57,160
Speaker 1: Another issue is I was alluding to earlier about how

252
00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,680
Speaker 1: he could connect the little girls he meets at Francis

253
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,440
Speaker 1: ice cream shop with their home address. If you can

254
00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,200
Speaker 1: get their home address out of them, or their phone number,

255
00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,800
Speaker 1: it's simple. If you could get their parents' name, he can.

256
00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,960
Speaker 1: You can go online and google a name a city

257
00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:16,880
Speaker 1: and get a set of phone numbers, or if you

258
00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:18,760
Speaker 1: still use the old phone book, you can do it

259
00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,800
Speaker 1: that way. Who is that day? I'll get jump in. Yeah,

260
00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,160
Speaker 1: you know, it's so easy to trick a young child.

261
00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,360
Speaker 1: You simply make the phone call and we should all

262
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,560
Speaker 1: be aware of this. And you say, I'm Jack, I'm

263
00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:34,800
Speaker 1: friends with your dad, and how's your mom doing? Is

264
00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,520
Speaker 1: she okay? What's going on? And the child just liberates

265
00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,920
Speaker 1: that information because they have no fear. They don't have

266
00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,640
Speaker 1: the frame of reference which teach them not to tell

267
00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,720
Speaker 1: people stuff like that. And if they've not been warned

268
00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:52,640
Speaker 1: about stranger danger, then they just open up because there's

269
00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,800
Speaker 1: a belief and they do believe that that person has

270
00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,360
Speaker 1: a direct connection with a family, even though they may

271
00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,720
Speaker 1: not be aware of it. And other thing, it's it's scary.

272
00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,680
Speaker 1: Doctor Jorry Crossen, and I've tried this on my own children.

273
00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:09,960
Speaker 1: Doctor Jory is joining AUS Psychologist's Faculty Saint Leo University

274
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,680
Speaker 1: and author doctor Jory. Studies have shown that you can

275
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:19,240
Speaker 1: tell your children over and over about stranger danger, about

276
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:21,320
Speaker 1: what to do if a car approaches you, or what

277
00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:23,240
Speaker 1: to do if somebody comes to the door and you

278
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:28,000
Speaker 1: don't know them. But children immediately after hearing it. And

279
00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,919
Speaker 1: you just heard Nicole for Zaansky tell us they had

280
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:34,679
Speaker 1: a stranger danger speaker in their class the day that

281
00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,160
Speaker 1: Amy goes missing and she still went with this guy.

282
00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,719
Speaker 1: I've done it with my own twins and they, you know,

283
00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:47,720
Speaker 1: they don't process the way adults processes. Studies show that, yeah,

284
00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:52,200
Speaker 1: and they're again they're so trusting and it's so easy

285
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:58,639
Speaker 1: to disarm them and establish that trust. One thing too,

286
00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,640
Speaker 1: I wanted to add in this location. You know when

287
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,600
Speaker 1: I do it with sex offenders and evaluated him in court,

288
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,960
Speaker 1: you always want to get into their fantasy. And you know,

289
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,359
Speaker 1: we know like serial killers would take momentums and trophies

290
00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:19,960
Speaker 1: and stuff, there's connections of where they leave the body

291
00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,720
Speaker 1: and the fantasy with it so being and out in

292
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,800
Speaker 1: an area where it's secluded, like she said, and this

293
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,600
Speaker 1: time you drive for miles. You know, there's a good

294
00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,240
Speaker 1: chance he revisited it, and that was part of his

295
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,639
Speaker 1: fantasy to go back out there, not even get close

296
00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,560
Speaker 1: to the body, but by driving out there, he's still

297
00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:43,720
Speaker 1: going to start this fantasy process in his mind. Explain

298
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,920
Speaker 1: what that means, doctor Jory Cross and psychologist about living

299
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,400
Speaker 1: out the fantasy, including the disposal of the body. Is

300
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:58,040
Speaker 1: that is psychologically the devancy, the perversion, that's the reward.

301
00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,040
Speaker 1: And if you can as a psychologist, okay, doing like

302
00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:06,440
Speaker 1: a Jimmy Rice evaluation, if I can get into that

303
00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,320
Speaker 1: and tap into that, that's where a lot of these

304
00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,760
Speaker 1: whys and other things, even though we may not understand them,

305
00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:18,160
Speaker 1: but there's a lot of that's the psychological heart, that's

306
00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:25,360
Speaker 1: the reason in his deviation and perversion. You know, call

307
00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:30,080
Speaker 1: all the psychological terms as evilness. Basically, to think about

308
00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:34,320
Speaker 1: the way that this young girl was thrown dead on

309
00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,879
Speaker 1: the side of the road is so upsetting, It is

310
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:43,200
Speaker 1: so callous. Listen to our friends at WKYC. That body

311
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,600
Speaker 1: has been positively identified as that of Amy Mahalovick. But

312
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,040
Speaker 1: it all came to a heartbreaking end about a quarter

313
00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,439
Speaker 1: of a mile down this quiet country road. February eighth,

314
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,080
Speaker 1: the day the body of Amy Mahalovik was found in

315
00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,640
Speaker 1: a field in Ashland County, fifty miles from her home

316
00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,240
Speaker 1: in Bay Village. It was found there, it was only

317
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,600
Speaker 1: about fifteen feet from the road, uncovered and in plain

318
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,520
Speaker 1: sight of numerous people driving by. She'd been stabbed, beaten,

319
00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:13,359
Speaker 1: and sexually assaulted. The manner of disposal of this body

320
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,760
Speaker 1: brings two cases to mine. One is a case I

321
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:23,359
Speaker 1: investigated and covered Chanelle Petro Nixon, beautiful young teen girl.

322
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,399
Speaker 1: She went out of the apartment for an errand and

323
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:31,600
Speaker 1: was never seen alive again. Her body was found in

324
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:39,240
Speaker 1: a trash bag left on Kingston Avenue. It also brings

325
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:44,480
Speaker 1: to mind the case of Nicole Lovell, thirteen year old

326
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:50,120
Speaker 1: little girl that was lured out of her home by

327
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:56,000
Speaker 1: a Virginia Tech student, David Eisenhower, and she was found

328
00:20:56,119 --> 00:21:03,679
Speaker 1: naked and wiped down some type of alcohol hye and

329
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:08,240
Speaker 1: thrown naked off the side of the road. What does

330
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:12,879
Speaker 1: that mean to you, doctor Joy? The disposal of the

331
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,200
Speaker 1: body like it's trash, Well, it can mean several things.

332
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,639
Speaker 1: And you know that's where like the behavioral aspects like

333
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,960
Speaker 1: how it's placed, you know, if it's just a card,

334
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,960
Speaker 1: as like trash like you say, if it's wrapped up

335
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:33,119
Speaker 1: in a bag. You know. Sometimes they're they're posed is

336
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,520
Speaker 1: the word that we use. You know, they're they're staged.

337
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:39,240
Speaker 1: There's there's significantly how that body. Guys take a listen

338
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,800
Speaker 1: to our friends at w E wus. Amy disappeared from

339
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,120
Speaker 1: Bay Village shopping center on October twenty seventh. Police say

340
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:48,359
Speaker 1: she had gotten a call from a man luring her

341
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,000
Speaker 1: to a nearby shopping plaza with the promise to help

342
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,920
Speaker 1: her buy a gift for her mom. Well four months later,

343
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,399
Speaker 1: a jogger found her body fifty miles away. Police have

344
00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,480
Speaker 1: a database, they say, of more than twelve thousand names

345
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 1: connected to this case, but so far no arrest. Her

346
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,960
Speaker 1: dad says he is not giving up, just gonna take

347
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,000
Speaker 1: just that one person. You don't keep you don't do

348
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,119
Speaker 1: something like that, keep it a secret, throat telling somebody

349
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:17,640
Speaker 1: else about it. Nicole Versanski joining us from CBS nineteen Amy,

350
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:24,439
Speaker 1: just aged ten, who disappears, her body found assaulted and

351
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,920
Speaker 1: thrown by the side of the road. Her dad very

352
00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:34,199
Speaker 1: very rarely speaks of it. I understand, Nicole, that the

353
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,280
Speaker 1: heartbreak is still very close to the surface. And see,

354
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,439
Speaker 1: he's never gone down the road where Amy's body was found.

355
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:47,879
Speaker 1: He sees absolutely no reason, he has ever reason in

356
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,120
Speaker 1: the world to be bitter and to be an angry man.

357
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 1: And he is still just such an incredibly kind, sweet,

358
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 1: nice man. But the heartbreak, you can still see the

359
00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 1: emptiness in eyes. He loves to talk about Amy, and

360
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 1: you know, any will and he'll smile, and he'll talk

361
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,159
Speaker 1: about how when she was five and six she was

362
00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,920
Speaker 1: diving off the high dive and just what an athlete

363
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,919
Speaker 1: too was, and how much she loved horses, and she

364
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,200
Speaker 1: used to draw him horses. He showed me a picture

365
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 1: once she drew him this horse and it was polka dotted,

366
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 1: and you can see the smile in his eyes, and

367
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 1: then you know, a mental pause and just nick it dumpty.

368
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 1: Time doesn't feel a wound like this, Nicole ver sans Key,

369
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 1: joining us from CBS nineteen and to store of podcast

370
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 1: Dark Side of the Land. Who Killed Amy Moholovic. I

371
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 1: want to talk to doctor Michelle Dupree again, not only

372
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 1: author of Investigating Child to Be's feel Guide, but medical examiner, pathologist,

373
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 1: and author of homicide investigation to feel a guide. What

374
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 1: do you make of the mode of murdyr Doctor Dupree Nancy.

375
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 1: There's a couple of things. One, I'd like to just

376
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 1: go back a moment and talk about the method of disposal.

377
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 1: This is very open it is there's no forensic countermeasures taken.

378
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 1: This is a disorganized killer. Slowdown when you just throw

379
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:21,360
Speaker 1: out the term forensic countermeasures, explain, So, forensic countermeasures are

380
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 1: things that people may do to try and hide the crime.

381
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 1: They take some type of staging would be a forensic countermeasure.

382
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,639
Speaker 1: In this case, you know, the body wasn't staged. It

383
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 1: was just sort of left. You mean, like Alex Murtague

384
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 1: using two guns to suggest someone else was involved in

385
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 1: the killing, got it exactly exactly. So no countermeasures here,

386
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:45,919
Speaker 1: And what does that mean to you in addition to

387
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 1: the mode of death. So that means to me that

388
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 1: it's basically sort of not very well planned, if you will,

389
00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:00,439
Speaker 1: and again that it's a disorganized type of killer. They

390
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 1: may have done this before. That's actually very good because

391
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:09,199
Speaker 1: there was some there was some other children that were contacted.

392
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:14,120
Speaker 1: He was looking to do this. I think that's obvious

393
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: by the whole scenario, Nancy, if I could jump in

394
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 1: for just a moment as far as there are indications

395
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: we know yes this is Nicole, go ahead because I

396
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,199
Speaker 1: was going to ask you about prior hang up calls,

397
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 1: But go ahead. There are indications that her Amy's body

398
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:34,120
Speaker 1: was wrapped in a blanket and a curtain, and there

399
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: are also items that were taken from her. There are

400
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 1: items that are missing to this day that Amy was

401
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 1: wearing the day she disappeared. Interesting, I wonder if those

402
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 1: were souvenirs. And about that curtain, take a listen to

403
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,159
Speaker 1: our friends at NIE's five Cleveland Bay Village. Police are

404
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 1: so focused on this curtain found three hundred yards away

405
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 1: from Maholivick's body in a field in Ashland County. Who's

406
00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,640
Speaker 1: always thought that they were connected somehow, And now, through

407
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: the advance of DNA technology and testing, when you've been

408
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 1: able to determine that Amy's hair was actually on that curtain,

409
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 1: investigators urge anyone who can help identify this curtain to

410
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: contact them. The curtain is it's very unique. It almost

411
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,479
Speaker 1: looks to be handmade. Back to you, nicolever sands Key,

412
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,880
Speaker 1: tell me again, about clothing missing from ten year old

413
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: Amy's body and the curtain. Turquoise horsehead earrings gone okay, wow,

414
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 1: turquoise horsehead earrings okay, black ankle height riding boots, a

415
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 1: black leather binder that her dad gave her. It has

416
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,879
Speaker 1: had buick basting class on it. Her book bag, and

417
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 1: a white wind breaker. Those items are very likely in

418
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 1: the possession of the person who did this to Amy.

419
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 1: The culver Sansky, You're so right to doctor Jerry Cross

420
00:26:52,560 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 1: and psychologist. Killers, especially serial killers, keep mementos they're victims.

421
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: It can be like in this case earrings, shoes, underwear,

422
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 1: but all sorts of things. What motivates them to do that.

423
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 1: That's part of that fantasy that they can relive it

424
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 1: and adjust it fitted into their demanded mind as to

425
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: how it came about. So you know that they call them,

426
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 1: you know, trophies, but they are things to remember this behavior,

427
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 1: this act, this person again in their mind. And you

428
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: know again when you tie in like the sexual offenders,

429
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: it has to do with the violence and the perversion

430
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 1: that fantasy life that they have. Del Carson joining me,

431
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville and former fed with

432
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 1: the FBI. Dell, I'm a big scrapbooker. I in my mind,

433
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 1: killers tell these mementos from their victims just the same

434
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: way I would put ticket stubs or a photo in

435
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: one of my scrap puts. Well, it's the remembrance. But

436
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 1: I talked this for the Bureau the sex offenders, and

437
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 1: I will simply tell you it's part of the ritualization.

438
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 1: And what you find is that they behave this way

439
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,679
Speaker 1: and it changes and gets more internally complex over time.

440
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 1: So that's in one way is to track the serial killer.

441
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 1: You find that they do it this way, it's not successful.

442
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 1: They have to add something to it as part of

443
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 1: the ritualization, and that's how we can track these individuals

444
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 1: over time and see how long they've been engaged in

445
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: the activity. So when you see a disorganized killer like this,

446
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: who simply throws the body out and throws the containing

447
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 1: material out at a different location, is very disorganized. You'll

448
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 1: find that they become better at it as they move along.

449
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: It's frightening, guys. Speaking of the curtain of that, Nico

450
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: over Sansky first told us all of a sudden handmade

451
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: looking curtain, a curtain that was found yards and yards

452
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: away from her body. Now reveals that one of her

453
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: hairs was all that curtain. It did not come from

454
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: her family home. Take a listen to our friend Peggy

455
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 1: Gallant Fox eight. Law enforcement officials have taken DNA samples

456
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 1: from people as recently as a couple months ago. We

457
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: just don't want to miss anything, and that's why they're continuing.

458
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: And a detective with the Bay Village Police Department tells

459
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 1: the IT Team that a lot of the DNA testing

460
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: they are doing now is to help eliminate possible suspects

461
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 1: and to make sure any of the DNA they do

462
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: have is not what they refer to as contamination DNA,

463
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 1: such as a hair from a law enforcement agent that

464
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 1: was at the scene. So we're always ruling people out

465
00:29:50,600 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: or checking people that were previous suspects. Time Stories with

466
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Law enforcement officials have taken DNA samples from

467
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,719
Speaker 1: people as recently as a couple months ago. We just

468
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: don't want to miss anything, and that's why they're very continuing,

469
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: and a detective with the Bay Village Police Department tells

470
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: the IT Team that a lot of the DNA testing

471
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 1: they are doing now is to help eliminate possible suspects,

472
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: and to make sure any of the DNA they do

473
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: have is not what they refer to as contamination DNA,

474
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: such as a hair from a law enforcement agent that

475
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 1: was at the scene. So we're always ruling people out

476
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: or checking people that were previous suspects. Joining me right now,

477
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: very special guests. You know her well, Shira la Point,

478
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 1: genetic genealogist, author of the gene Hunter That's Gna and

479
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: founder of the gene hunter dot com on Twitter, La

480
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: Point Shia Sara, thank you for being with us. Boy

481
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: do we need you now? You know you can't just

482
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: run the hair. We have to now use very sophisticated

483
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: miticondual DNA analysis, and that type of analysis has been

484
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: refined dealing specifically with contaminated DNA. What do you make

485
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 1: of what you're hearing? What should be done? Dnays hey,

486
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: shir up before you answer that question. Listener. WKYC, a

487
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: ten year old girl who loved horses and wore a

488
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 1: cross around her neck in one of the most shared

489
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: missing children's posters of all time, murdered. Her killer never caught,

490
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: While her story became the subject of documentaries featured over

491
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,719
Speaker 1: the years on Talk shows as investigators continued their public

492
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: outreach with billboards sharing as well. This handmade curtain and

493
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 1: blanket found within feet of Amy's body. Believe she was

494
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: wrapped in it, hoping that someone might recognize where it

495
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: came from. But so far nothing. Okay, sure a point.

496
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: You're the genetic genealogists, do your thing, Nancy. We have

497
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 1: a quilt that was made into a curtain. Someone cut

498
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: up a corner and made tabs. That tells me that

499
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 1: if we can get DNA off that curtain, it would

500
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: tell us number one, possibly we made the curtain where

501
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: it comes from. But also she was wrapped in that

502
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: homemade curtain. We shed approximately four hundred thousand epithelial sails

503
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: a day. Whoever carried her and left her in that field,

504
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 1: it's a good chance their DNA is actually on that curtain.

505
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: And nowadays we can take the graded DNA from a

506
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: curtain that she was wrapped in thirty two years ago

507
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: and find small amounts of DNA to get an accurate

508
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: profile and figure out using genetic genealogy who touched that curtain,

509
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: and that's going to give us some answers. They were

510
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: able to prove that it was her hair on that curtain.

511
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: But there are new forensic grade genome sequencing DNA that

512
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: can be done now to help us figure this out.

513
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: How hard is it, Cheryl appoint the gene hunter to

514
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: extract usable DNA from a contaminated source. It has been

515
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 1: historically very very difficult to do. But with the advancements

516
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 1: in DNA technology that we have private forensic labs that

517
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: are doing work like operas that can take these cases

518
00:33:54,600 --> 00:34:00,120
Speaker 1: with little, little evidence or degraded DNA and they can

519
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: break it down and it would give genetic information that

520
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: would help us build a family tree to figure out

521
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 1: whose DNA is on that curtain based on epiphilial cell

522
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 1: skin cells that were left on the curtain. Absolutely, that

523
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: is the DNA that you would be looking at, and

524
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 1: it would be autosomal DNA that could be used to

525
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,919
Speaker 1: figure this out, and it would tell us number one,

526
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: in my opinion, who maybe even who made the curtain,

527
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 1: where the curtain came from, and I just I have

528
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 1: to believe that the perpetrator's DNA is absolutely on that curtain.

529
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: You know, I'm curious to culver Sanski joining us CBS

530
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: nineteen and star of Dark Side of the Land, who

531
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 1: killed Amy Mahalovick Nicole, she had been sex assaulted. Was

532
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 1: there no sperm left behind? Let's consider she was likely

533
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,879
Speaker 1: dumb very shortly after she was abducted. She was in

534
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 1: that field until February. Gosh. Yeah. But I do want

535
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: to mention over the past, speaking to testing and DNA testing,

536
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: over the past two years, they've spent about seventy five

537
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:20,280
Speaker 1: thousand dollars on advanced DNA testing. And again, that biggest

538
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: hurdle is that this is thirty two years old, and

539
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: that is a big zactor in the quality of any

540
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 1: of the DNA that they do test. And then there's

541
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 1: a risk there because oftentimes when you're testing this evidence,

542
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 1: you're you know, you're ruining that evidence. Well, there is

543
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 1: a way that DNA can be extended. You regenerate the

544
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: DNA in the lab to create an f DNA to

545
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: perform additional tests. Not always true, but often true. Is

546
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: there a twist in the case. Take a listen to

547
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 1: our cut nine our friends at Needs five Cleveland. The

548
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,839
Speaker 1: details come straight out of recently filed court documents. They're

549
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,280
Speaker 1: the sworn statements. The lead detective with Bay Village Police,

550
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: following up on a tip suggesting on now sixty four

551
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 1: year old man could be Amy Mahalovic's killer. According to

552
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,800
Speaker 1: a sworn affidavit, that tip came back in January twenty nineteen,

553
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 1: a woman told detectives she suspected her ex boyfriend killed

554
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: the ten year old Bay Village girl. We're not naming

555
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 1: the man since he hasn't in charge with anything. According

556
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: to police, she said the man never came home the

557
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 1: night Amy Mahalovic disappeared from the Bay Village Square shopping

558
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: center and more in our cut ten from these five.

559
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 1: Cleveland investigators say the woman did hear from the man

560
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,800
Speaker 1: that night, though a phone call asking if she was

561
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: aware of news coverage about Amy's disappearance. During that call,

562
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 1: the woman told police the man said his niece and

563
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,800
Speaker 1: brother's family knew Mahalovic. In fact, police say the man's

564
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 1: niece was the same age and in the same grade

565
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 1: as Amy, and the woman also believed she recalled her

566
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:56,280
Speaker 1: ex boyfriend tell her he knew Amy for years. Police

567
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 1: have said prior to her abduction, the ten year old

568
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 1: received a phone call from a man and wanting to

569
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 1: arrange a meeting with the girl to help pick out

570
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 1: a gift for Amy's mother. So that's amazing to me.

571
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 1: They call for sansky that this now sixty four year

572
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:14,280
Speaker 1: old man says that his niece was the same age

573
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,800
Speaker 1: and the same grade as Amy. Why would this guy?

574
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 1: They asking had she seen the news coverage? Isn't it

575
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: true he walked into the police station and gave a

576
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 1: statement either all incredible questions, Nancy, But I will tell

577
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 1: you detectives are keeping pretty tight to their vest with

578
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 1: this one. They have their eye on suspects plural, and

579
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 1: the most they will say is that, yes, one of

580
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: them have come up recently. I think the fear here

581
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:46,839
Speaker 1: is that they don't want to put all their eggs

582
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 1: in a basket and have someone out there who knows

583
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 1: something or thinks they might have information think, oh, they

584
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 1: got their guy. Well, why don't they just do a

585
00:37:55,520 --> 00:38:00,439
Speaker 1: DNA analysis with the most advanced technique. But there's even

586
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:02,839
Speaker 1: more to what this guy is saying. Take a listen

587
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,839
Speaker 1: to our cut eleven News five. Cleveland police say during

588
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,240
Speaker 1: an interview with a man in the fall of twenty nineteen,

589
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,839
Speaker 1: the man quote indicated he may have met Mahalavak's mother

590
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 1: in a bar, and that quote maybe he didn't know

591
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 1: who he was talking to. Police say they asked the

592
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 1: man whether he ever called Amy prior to her abduction.

593
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 1: The detective wrote, the man said I could have, and

594
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 1: that it could have been a wrong number. According to

595
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 1: court documents, when asked again if there was a possibility

596
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: that he called her, the man said yes. Del Carson.

597
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 1: Why is a man in his thirties calling a ten

598
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,399
Speaker 1: year old little girl all the fact, Well, there can

599
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: be no good reason for that, obviously, but it does

600
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 1: demonstrate the link that the child perceived was with her family,

601
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 1: because she could say, He could say to her, my

602
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 1: niece is in school with you, and I would like

603
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,839
Speaker 1: to match up with you. Those were all mechanism key

604
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 1: to the lock of self protection that opens up and

605
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 1: allows him to continue to manipulate the child. As of

606
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 1: right now, after all the years have passed, Amy's father

607
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 1: still holding out hope that her killer will be apprehended.

608
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds. The tip line four four

609
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,879
Speaker 1: zero eight seven one one two three four repeat four

610
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: four zero eight seven one one two three four. Goodbye friend,