1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Hey, Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:10,799 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 3 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: Time to go into the vault for a classic episode 4 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 1: of the show. This one originally aired on February eleven, 5 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: and this is part two of our two part series 6 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:23,080 Speaker 1: on the eruption of Vesuvius. Yeah, this one's This one's 7 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: a lot of fun volcanoes history, geology. Uh yeah, this 8 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: is the second part. So if you didn't listen to 9 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: the first one, go back and listen to that one first. 10 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 1: But let's go ahead and dive right in. Welcome to 11 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:39,840 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of I Heart Radios 12 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:48,880 Speaker 1: How Stuff Works. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 13 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 14 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: we're back following up our last episode about the eruption 15 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: of Mount Vesuvius in seventy nine. You know, Robert, this 16 00:00:58,120 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: is something that I have wanted to do and I 17 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: episode about for a long time. I think it was 18 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 1: mainly just because I love those letters of Plenties and 19 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 1: I wanted to read them and talk about them. But 20 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: there was a reason that we just recently decided, okay, 21 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 1: it's time to do Vesuvious And it was because of 22 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: a new study I read about that set the lava 23 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: of my heart flowing anew. And so here we are 24 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: because a lot of the really great and shocking research 25 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: about Vesuvius is like basically what happened to people's bodies 26 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: when when the volcano erupted. Oh absolutely, I mentioned in 27 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 1: the first episode, how I how much, how clearly I 28 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: remember looking through a National geographic when I was a 29 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 1: child and and seeing these images of the remains of 30 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: uh In Pompeii and Herculaneum. One in particular I remember 31 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: was a photograph of this one bit of human remains 32 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: that are referred to as ring Lady because it is 33 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: the skeleton and you see uh these these rings there, 34 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: and it's just like the skeleton emerging from the you know, 35 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: half half revealed in the in the ash and soil, 36 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: and it was just very haunting. It's this idea of 37 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:11,399 Speaker 1: this place just buried and frozen in time. I'm looking 38 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: at this image. Does she have rings on her fingers 39 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 1: but also bigger rings down around her like her elbow? Yes, 40 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: I believe so. And I think another photo included in 41 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,119 Speaker 1: our notes is rather small, but I believe they're serpents 42 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: to their like, you know, um precious metal serpents. Uh. 43 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: So you know that all these little details like that, 44 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: you know, always were just very intriguing Me's such a 45 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: dramatic moment in history, and then to have so much 46 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 1: of it preserved, Yeah, in some cases preserved in a 47 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: shockingly pristine way, but in other cases transformed in an 48 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: even more shocking way. So this new study that that 49 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: I was reading about was by pure Paolo Petrona, published 50 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: in the New England Journal of Medicine just this month 51 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:55,519 Speaker 1: or just last month in January actually, so Patroni was 52 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: the lead author, but there were a bunch of authors 53 00:02:57,639 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: named on it. And I'm not going to say the 54 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: name of the study because that might spoil a little 55 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 1: bit about what happened. But basically, there have been a 56 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: lot of modern analyzes trying to understand exactly what happened 57 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: to the bodies of the victims of Vesuvius in settlements 58 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 1: like Pompeii and Herculaneum. It's like some of the ones 59 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:18,239 Speaker 1: people are most familiar with, or when essentially the like 60 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: the the the ashes that formed around body have been 61 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,959 Speaker 1: used as a kind of mold. You know, pour a 62 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,639 Speaker 1: substance down in there, let it, you know, harden, and 63 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 1: then when you bring it back out, you have this, 64 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: this picture of these these humans from seventy nine at 65 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: the basically the moment of death. Yeah. And in a 66 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: lot of cases, these people died under circumstances so extreme 67 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: that it's difficult to imagine exactly how it would play 68 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: out on our soft, fluid filled bodies. Um. This particular 69 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: study concerns one such case, which got a good right 70 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: up in the New York Times by Jennifer Pinkowski. So 71 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: this study looked at one specific body exhumed from the 72 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: buried ruins of Herculee Lannium. And this was a man 73 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: who was believed to have been in his mid twenties, 74 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: and he was found lying on a wooden bed in 75 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: the colle Gum august Stallium, which was a building on 76 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: the main street of the town away from the waterfront. 77 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: And the man's ash entombed remains were discovered sometime in 78 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties, but more recently researchers were able to 79 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:26,359 Speaker 1: extract a strange object from inside the dead man's head, 80 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: and it is a warped, black, shiny fragment of glassy material. 81 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: What is it? Well, I mean, if if one worked 82 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 1: out to guess, you might think, well, this must be 83 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: a piece of you know, volcanic shrapnel, something that you know, 84 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 1: flying through the air and become it gets embedded in 85 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: the skull, right sure. And when I was looking at 86 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 1: images of the fragment, I was thinking exactly along those lines, 87 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: because it reminded me a bit of the appearance of 88 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: tech tits, which are these gravel sized pieces of natural 89 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: glass that are formed from terrestrial material, including things like sand, 90 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: and which get rapidly superheated to the melting point during 91 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: meteorite impacts. So, like you know, a meteor hits the surface, 92 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 1: it kicks up a lot of stuff as some of 93 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: it quickly melts and turns into glass. And natural impact 94 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: glass is amazing. I think we talked about it a 95 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: bit in our episode about the Kabba Um but but yeah, 96 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:22,719 Speaker 1: just to imagine that, like an object falling from space 97 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: hits the surface of the Earth, throws up this big 98 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 1: explosion of debris, and some of that debris gets so 99 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: hot from the impact it turns into a shower of glass. 100 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: So anyway, the images of this object extracted from the 101 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 1: man's head look kind of like tech tits or kind 102 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: of like obsidian, but it also has this crazy complicated 103 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: shape and texture with these sharp hooks and crags and 104 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: little rounded divots as if created by frozen bubbles. And 105 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 1: so anyway, the authors of this study believe the evidence 106 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: tells us what the glassy material is. It's vitrified brain tissue, 107 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: human brain turned into glass. Hence the name of the study, 108 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: heat induced brain vitrification from the vesuvious eruption in c. 109 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: Seventy nine uh and is summarized in Pinkowski's article. According 110 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: to pure Paolo Patrona, who is a forensic anthropologist of 111 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 1: the University Federico, the second of Naples and the first 112 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,359 Speaker 1: author on the study, again, the man's brain quote turned 113 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: to glass as a result of high heat from the 114 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: pyroclastic flow, and the victim's skull exploded. Now, this is 115 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 1: not actually the first case of research indicating the heat 116 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 1: from the volcanic eruption caused people's heads to explode. That 117 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: that's something that had been established by some previous research. Right. 118 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: In fact, one of the older episodes of stuff to 119 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: blow your mind I think titled stuff that will literally 120 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: blow your mind. That's one of the things we mentioned 121 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: as being something that could actually make your your head pop, 122 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: would be becoming caught in say a pyroclastic flow like this. Yeah, 123 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: not not to be too grim, but I mean, I 124 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 1: think of the comparison to like, and we've discussed our 125 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: problems microwaving butter where there's like too much vapor formation, 126 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 1: very rapidly rapid temperature change like that. So, to quote 127 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: some text from the study itself, and this was quoted 128 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: secondarily from the BBC quote, the detection of glassy material 129 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: from the victim's head of proteins expressed in the human brain, 130 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: and if fatty acids found in human hair indicates the 131 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: thermally induced preservation of vitrified human brain tissue. So first 132 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: you'd have extreme radiant heat which would pretty much instantly 133 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: ignite fat in the body and vaporized fluid content and 134 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 1: body tissues. What kind of heat are we talking about, Well, 135 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: analysis of the charred wood nearby shows temperatures right around 136 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: the man probably reached to something like five d and 137 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: twenty degrees celsius, which is over nine hundred and sixty 138 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: degrees fahrenheit, which I believe is hotter than the average 139 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: surface temperature on the planet Venus. Uh. So we're we're 140 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: in extreme territory here. And uh And though I should 141 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: say that not all experts are convinced that the black 142 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: glass is truly the man's brain, because Pinkowski Uh in 143 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: her article for The Times, also quote somebody named Christina Kilgrove, 144 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: who is a bioarchaeologist at the University of North Carolina 145 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: Chapel Hill, who's done firsthand research on Vesuvius and of 146 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: the brain to glass study. She says, quote, while their 147 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: analysis is intriguing, I do not think they've proved its 148 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: human brain material, nor nor have they ruled out other origins. 149 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: The fatty acids they identified are typical of vegetable or 150 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: animal fat or hair. So apparently, you know, once you 151 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: start achieving temperatures that potentially turn all kinds of organic 152 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 1: material into glass, you create some room for confusion. Maybe 153 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: this is some kind of other organic material that trified, right, 154 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: and then again this is like, these are special circumstances 155 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:53,599 Speaker 1: to create this, these forensic remains. So it's difficult to 156 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: compare these to other cases. Now, that's not the only 157 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,599 Speaker 1: study to come out recently about grim death scenes and 158 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: these hounds. There was another one I was looking at 159 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: that was revising some earlier research about how some people 160 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: had died when their their remains were found within these 161 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: stone houses that were along the shores at Herculaneum that 162 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: were sort of known as the boat houses, to appear 163 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: that people died crowded inside. I think they had probably 164 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,319 Speaker 1: crowded into the buildings for shelter. The buildings got closed 165 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: up and then got superheated, and the question was how 166 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: did the people die inside? And again it's a very 167 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:28,839 Speaker 1: grim scene, but it looks like it sort of turned. 168 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: The buildings provided some insulation from the flow of what 169 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,719 Speaker 1: was happening outside, but just gradually heated up and sort 170 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: of worked like an oven. It's kind of horrible to imagine. 171 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so yeah, they they managed to avoid like 172 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,719 Speaker 1: instant cooking but instead got slightly more gradual cooking. Yeah, 173 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: now is luck with habit? There was There was another 174 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,479 Speaker 1: very recent bit of news concerning the eruption of Vesuvious. 175 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: In January, number of news sources ran a story about 176 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: the possible discovery of Plenty the Elder's skull. What yes, 177 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: um in one of the better red ups that the 178 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: one I was looking at, in fact, was Katherine J. 179 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,199 Speaker 1: Woo's This two thousand year old skull may belong to 180 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: plenty of the elder published on smithsonian dot com. Okay, 181 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: what's the case here? Alright, So this, this latest wrinkle 182 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: in the story comes of via Italian researchers regarding one 183 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:25,079 Speaker 1: of some seventy skeletons buried together in the aftermath of 184 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: the eruption. So this particular body that they're looking at, 185 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: or really particularly particularly we're dealing with a skull and 186 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: job bone. Uh, they were found to have the body 187 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: that it's associated with found to have heavy or heavily 188 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: ornamented short sword in its possession, and jewels, all of 189 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: this becoming of a person of means. Perhaps they speculate 190 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: a high ranking naval officer. Now, these remains were unearthed 191 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: about a hundred years ago, and engineer Gennero Matrone theorized 192 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 1: that this might be plenty, but there was no way 193 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 1: to really explore this any further. Um, you know, it's 194 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: just kind of circumstance, like, hey, we found a this 195 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 1: this body looks like it was somebody of of means. 196 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:12,839 Speaker 1: The most famous person of means to have we know 197 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 1: died uh in the eruption of Vesuvius is of course 198 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: Plenty of the Elder, so he's thought, I think this 199 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: might be him. So fast forward to the twenty one 200 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,839 Speaker 1: century and the skull and the jaw are now in 201 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: the possession of Rome's Museum of the History of the 202 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: Art of Medicine, and using DNA sequencing technology, researchers found 203 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: that it was the skull of quote, a man who 204 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: could trace some of his lineage to Italy and who 205 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 1: likely died in his forties or fifties. Now Plenty would 206 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: have been fifty six, so it's possible. The jaw, on 207 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: the other hand, turned out to be from a different 208 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: individual of North African heritage. Okay, so it wasn't even 209 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: from the same head as the rest of the skull. 210 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: So all of this is still very uncertain. This is 211 00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 1: not a this is not they're not really hitting it 212 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:01,439 Speaker 1: out of the park with this one. I think you 213 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:06,959 Speaker 1: can fairly say, yes, it sounds possible that this particular 214 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: skull could have belonged to Plenty of the Elder, But 215 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:14,839 Speaker 1: narrowing it down to just a you know, a man 216 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:16,839 Speaker 1: who could trace some of his lineage to Italy and 217 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: who likely died in his forties or fifties. I mean, 218 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: obviously they're going to be other individuals in that category 219 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: that died with the eruption of Vesuvius. Yeah, this is interesting, 220 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: but yeah, I'm far from convinced. So again to go 221 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 1: over to the evidence, he would have been in the 222 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: right age bracket, but a lot of people would have been. 223 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: He would have been an Italian man, but a lot 224 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,079 Speaker 1: of people there would have been, And he had some 225 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 1: he had some possessions indicating that he was rich, right, 226 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: an ornamented sword and jewels. But again, so the argument 227 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: is like, well, this was the kind of stuff that 228 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:54,839 Speaker 1: you might expect to find upon a naval officer, to 229 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,559 Speaker 1: to find upon you know, somebody liked plenty of the elder. 230 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: But that's about as far as we can really go 231 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: with it. Yeah. Yeah, this reminds me of other cases 232 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: where we've talked about on the show before, where people 233 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: kind of like, you're so eager to take one fact 234 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: or character or place from a historical narrative and try 235 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 1: to connect it with physical artifacts on on often a 236 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: very tenuous basis. Like I remember in our episode about 237 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: Lot's Wife where we discussed the dead Sea region and 238 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: the tendency to take a rock or salt formation, and 239 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: people would say, that's a Lot's wife. Um, And like, 240 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:32,959 Speaker 1: even so, even if you were someone who believed the 241 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: you know, destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah story as as 242 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 1: history and believe the whole Lot's Wife thing, why would 243 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: you expect an individual rock you come across to actually 244 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 1: be her? Right? Yeah, the idea is of course endlessly 245 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,839 Speaker 1: attractive to be able to have this physical proof of 246 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: Plenty of the elder and individual who factors so heavily 247 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: into this particular historical narrative. But also it's just such 248 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 1: an uh an important figure in the you know, the 249 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: historical writings. Yeah, I think it speaks to a kind 250 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: of human tendency of like the characters we know from 251 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: literary sources, whether it's history or mythology. They're like friends 252 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: and you know the same way that you walk through 253 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 1: a crowd and you yearned to recognize people. You know, 254 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: you see somebody and like, oh is that Jeff, No 255 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,319 Speaker 1: it's not him, but your your brain went there for 256 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: a second. Is that Plenty skull? Oh? Way, what it 257 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: might be somebody else, but still it feels it feels 258 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: special for a second there, Yeah, it does. So I 259 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: guess I'd say the evidence here not even close to decisive. 260 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: But if you want to imagine maybe it's plenty skull, 261 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: I guess there's no harm in that, right and now. 262 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: And on the same hand, I don't want to criticize 263 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: this more recent research because because clearly they were they 264 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: were following up on this much earlier speculation where this 265 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: goes like I think it's plenty, and they said, well, 266 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: let's let's apply some science to this. Let's what we 267 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: can we can discern from the bone of the skull itself, 268 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: and yeah, this is what they figured out. Yeah, you 269 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: can find out more that's either consistent or not consistent 270 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: with what somebody has already claimed. Yeah, and if they 271 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: found that it was, you know, the skull of a 272 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: of a woman in her eighties, then it probably wouldn't 273 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: have been plenty, right, or with the the the entire 274 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: like the skull and the job oone had both turned 275 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 1: out to have North African origin, that would have also 276 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: been a firmer no, yea, So instead we just have 277 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: a lingering maybe all right, On that note, we're going 278 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: to take the possible skull of plenty of the elder, 279 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: and we're gonna place it up in the shelf and 280 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: we're going to drink coffee from it. Yes, and we 281 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: are going to take a quick break, but we will 282 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: be right back and we will continue to discuss the 283 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: lessons of Vesuvius. Than all right, we're back. So there 284 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: are all these genres of things that archaeologists have uncovered 285 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: at at the settlements that were ruined by the eruption 286 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: of Vesuvius, especially like Pompeii and Herculaneum, and there's no 287 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: way for us to talk about all of the discoveries. 288 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: A lot of them are just things about like, you know, 289 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: everyday Roman life. You know, the way the houses are preserved, 290 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: things about how the kitchens would have run, and stuff 291 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: like that, because you have all the stuff still in there. Yeah. 292 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: One of the things about the past that and then 293 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: we've touched on this plenty of times before, is you know, 294 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: it's the everyday stuff that is not always preserved in 295 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: say the history books or in you know, religious art 296 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: or what have you. And and that's often the most 297 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: interesting thing, like how did the common people live, How 298 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: what did people eat, what did they drink? Well, how 299 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: healthy were they? But like the common information like that 300 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: is not the kind of stuff that is usually thought 301 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: notable to be recorded by historians of the time because 302 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: common life is not interesting to them at least because 303 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: it's common might be interesting to us for which it's 304 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: unusual and unknown. Instead, the things that historians are likely 305 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: to record are the unusual events, you know, the wars 306 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: and everything like that. Yeah, yeah, the the the the 307 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: dramatic moments, etcetera. So or and indeed with the with 308 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: Vesuvius and its eruption, like you know, that's we have 309 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: this wonderful account that it survived and provides all these 310 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: these details about the this other than the unnatural horror 311 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 1: that fall, the falls, the cities that exist in the 312 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: area surrounding the Volcanic mountain. But you know, Plenty is 313 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: not taking a lot of time to talk about what 314 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: he ate for breakfast that morning, right, So I think 315 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: he does say his uncle had a light luncheon. You 316 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 1: don't say what it was. But one of the amazing 317 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: genres of things that archaeologists have uncovered at Pompeii that 318 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: is definitely worth looking up. If you haven't seen. It 319 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 1: is the some of the surviving original artwork, which in 320 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:34,360 Speaker 1: some cases is preserved in a strikingly vivid and colorful way. 321 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: Oh yes, yeah, these are definitely worth looking up, and 322 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 1: some of them are you know, it's it's one of 323 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 1: these things where it makes you really think about trying 324 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:46,400 Speaker 1: to put yourself in the shoes of the of these 325 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 1: people who lived in se And so there are things 326 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: that make perfect sense, like, yeah, of course you'd want 327 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: to live in a uh, in a in a space 328 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 1: that is uh, you know, has rich decoration. But then 329 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 1: you ask, well, why this painting, particular fresco, etcetera. Well, 330 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: I'm thinking if it happened to my house and future 331 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: archaeologists were digging it up, they'd be like, what does 332 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: it mean that he had a poster for the film 333 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 1: Attack of the Crab Monsters on his wall. Clearly he 334 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: thought it was a great film, or he he realized 335 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: that giant psychic crabs were holy creatures and were to 336 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 1: be venerated in the home is a kind of a 337 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: household god. They might think this is a religious artifact. 338 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: But so one of the fresco is that I wanted 339 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: to talk about was something I was just reading about 340 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 1: from a site called Reggio five Reggio v uh, I 341 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: assume that means five and not just the letter V, 342 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 1: which is still under excavation. And this is a well 343 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: preserved fresco that appears to have been in the basement 344 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 1: of a large building, underneath the stairwell. I don't know 345 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: if that contributed to how well it was preserved. It 346 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 1: might have, might have, But it depicts the end of 347 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: a fight between two gladiators of fighter types that we 348 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: can actually identify based on their weapons in their armor 349 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: in the painting. So one is of a type known 350 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 1: as the Murmillo and the other is a of a 351 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: type known as the three X or the Thracian. So 352 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 1: I was looking these up in a book called Gladiators 353 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 1: at Pompeii by Luciana Jacob Belly from two thousand three, 354 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: and she writes of the mrmal O that he had. 355 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 1: So the name of the Mrmalo type fighter originally comes 356 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: from a marine fish, the Murma, which had an image 357 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: of this fish was drawn on this type of fighter's helmet. 358 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: So this fighter would have a very scary looking helmet. Actually, 359 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 1: so it's got a visor that closes over the face, 360 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,680 Speaker 1: and it's got kind of a chain pattern like chain 361 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,880 Speaker 1: link pattern across the visor um and then of course 362 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 1: it depicts this fish. And then the gladiator would fight 363 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: bare chested or sometimes where something known as the subla gaculum. Uh. 364 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 1: And then he'd have his right arm protected by something 365 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: called a manica, which I've seen depicted as like a 366 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: kind of a sleeve of padding laced up around the 367 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: right arm, which was the sword arm. So you'd hold 368 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,199 Speaker 1: your short sword called a gladius in the right arm 369 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: with that laced up with this padding, and then in 370 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: the other hand you would have a rectangular shield called 371 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: a screwed them that's about one meter high. And as 372 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: we've discussed in the past talking about gladiators on the 373 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:20,440 Speaker 1: show Roman Gladiatorial Combat. You know, it's not unfair to 374 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: compare it to the film adaptation of The Running Man. 375 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: You know, it's there's theatrics here, there's mythic symbology involved here. Uh. 376 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: So it's a it's it's not merely there's there's a 377 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 1: mix of function but also just mythic form and entertainment. Yes, 378 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: and there's another element of it that comes in, which 379 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 1: is just like ethnic representations like the Romans would have 380 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 1: some fighter types that were supposed to represent sort of 381 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: like exotic foreign types of warriors who the fighters might 382 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 1: not necessarily actually be from those regions, but they say, 383 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 1: the other fighter in this not the Mermalo, but the Thracian, 384 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: you know, So that's like a type of person. And 385 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 1: so this is supposed to be modeled after the idea 386 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: of a Thracian warrium. Well, I'm not sure if it 387 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: would actually in any accurate way represent what the Thracians were. Like. Yeah, 388 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: I mean, this is actually something you see reflected even 389 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 1: in some I think contemporary examples, but definitely in twentieth 390 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: century examples of professional wrestling. Yes, where various, and this 391 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: is something you would see in different parts in pretty 392 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: much everywhere that pro wrestling was slash is popular. So 393 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 1: talking about Mexico, Japan, the United States, uh, those three anyway, 394 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 1: you would often see depictions of other nationalities uh in 395 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 1: different enemy roles, and of course you see all manner 396 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: of xenophobia and UH and racial stereotypes and cultural stereotypes 397 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: embodied in those forms. Yes, and you know a funny 398 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: thing that I was reading about with Roman gladiators that 399 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: like sometimes gladiator types would go out of style as 400 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: as certain ethnic groups were more are comprehensively incorporated into 401 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: the empire. So like earlier on, you would have a 402 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: type of fighter that was basically the gallic fighter, you know, 403 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: like this is our this is our parody of the uh, 404 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: I don't know what you want to call it, you know, 405 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: their parody or their understanding of like the the ethnic 406 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: gall as a warrior as gall than goal. Today, modern 407 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: like France basically became a more fully incorporated part of 408 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: the Roman Empire. That type of fighter fell out of 409 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: fashion and was replaced by representations of ethnic groups that 410 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,680 Speaker 1: were still more considered outsiders or others. Yeah, it's a 411 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: it's an interesting way to think about the you know, 412 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: that space where where sport and war meet, and they 413 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: meet more directly in gladiatorial combat obviously, but you see 414 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 1: this in other types of sporting entertainment out there, even 415 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: like full on team sports. Uh. You know, there's this 416 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: idea that instead of two nations going to war, they 417 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,120 Speaker 1: go to game. Uh. And that you know, that's ultimately 418 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: part of the spirit of even the Olympics, which are 419 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: again often uh you know, held up as an example 420 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: of nations coming together in peace and uh, and I 421 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:15,640 Speaker 1: think certainly certainly fulfills that that need for the international community. 422 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: And yet at the same time, it is about my 423 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 1: country and your country going head to head, and we're 424 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,679 Speaker 1: going to see which one has the has the right 425 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 1: stuff to to emerge victorious at the end. Yeah. But 426 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: at least in the case of the Olympics, it's like 427 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: people actually from the original countries coming together to compete. 428 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: It would be a different thing if you were just 429 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 1: like wherever somebody actually came from, you had them depicting 430 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 1: a person from a certain country, and then in that 431 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 1: you would see more of a parallel in say twentieth 432 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:47,920 Speaker 1: century American professional wrestling. Yeah. So jacob Elli writes about 433 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 1: this other type that the second type in the Fresco 434 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: the Thracian quote. The Thracians armor included a small, strongly convex, 435 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 1: squarish shield known as a parmula a manica. Again, this 436 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 1: is an arm band like this like padding laced up 437 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: around the sword arm uh and two high leggings often 438 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 1: decorated up to the knee. The weapon most typical of 439 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 1: this gladiator was a short sword, either curved or angled, 440 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: called us Sika, so like you have a little kind 441 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: of curved scimitar thing, and she writes that even the 442 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: helmet was unusual usually be decorated with this tall decorated crest. 443 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 1: So in the fresco, it's a battle scene, and it's 444 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: at the end of the battle, and the Mermalo fighter 445 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 1: stands victorious, holding his sword in his right hand and 446 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 1: holding his shield high in his left, and the Thracian 447 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: is bent over, badly wounded, bleeding from wounds on his 448 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: wrist and his chest. He's disarmed, his shield is lying 449 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 1: on the ground next to him, and he's making a 450 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 1: sign with his left hand, and it's not clear exactly 451 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 1: what that is, but some historians and archaeologists thinks that 452 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: that he's possibly appealing to the audience for mercy with 453 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: this sign, and we don't know if the fight would 454 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: have ended with mercy or execution. That's interesting because then 455 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 1: it then also not not only you're wondering about what 456 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: he's depicted in the art, but then why is it depicted, 457 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: Like why is this image celebrated? Are we celebrating the 458 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 1: presumably the valiant warrior that has fallen and is is 459 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: appealing for for mercy? Like saying, hey, I put up 460 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: a good fight, didn't you, And and maybe the people 461 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,479 Speaker 1: looking at the art can be like, yeah, even if 462 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: you lose, if you put up a good fight, there's 463 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: there's grace and honor in that. Or yeah, is it 464 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 1: about the other guy, Like yeah, defeat the other of 465 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 1: combatant at all costs and maybe they'll beg for mercy, 466 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 1: but you still want right, Is the purpose of the 467 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: artwork to be like, look at this Thracian loser? Yeah? 468 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 1: Uh yeah? And according it gets even more interesting because 469 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 1: according to Massimo Osana, director General of Pompei's Archaeological Park, 470 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: this building was probably both a tavern and a brothel 471 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: that was frequented by local gladiators. So Reggio five is 472 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,119 Speaker 1: very near to another side that's believed to have been 473 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: a barracks for the fighters, So the gladiators would have 474 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: had their barracks nearby, they would go for I guess 475 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: recreation at this tavern in brothel, and inside the tavern 476 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 1: and brothel where the gladiators go, there are scenes on 477 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: the walls of gladiators killing each other, and it's like, 478 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: is that what they would have wanted to see? Or 479 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: is that what they just had to put up with. Yeah, 480 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 1: like who who decorated this space? I don't It's so 481 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: interesting trying to understand what would motivate people to to 482 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,119 Speaker 1: decorate buildings in certain ways in the ancient world. You like, 483 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: you can't again the same thing we were talking about, like, like, 484 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,200 Speaker 1: how would a future civilization understand the spirit with which 485 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: I hang up a poster for a trashy nineteen fifties 486 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: sci fi movie? Like do they like do they have 487 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 1: the level of complexity and imagining my mind that says, okay, 488 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 1: this had something to do with like love of horror movies, 489 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 1: but also a sense of irony and you know, like 490 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: or would they just have to assume I guess this 491 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,880 Speaker 1: is just like a religious artifact or something. Yeah, yeah, 492 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: there's some of there's there's so many generalities to potentially 493 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,439 Speaker 1: apply to that situation. And then and then it's going 494 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:03,880 Speaker 1: to get you know, very specific about the individual whose 495 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 1: house it is. Of course, in this case, it is 496 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: a you know, again more of a less a public 497 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: space for the gladiators that are assembled there. But then 498 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: you have to again question who decided that this is 499 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: what should be on the wall? And then what is 500 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: the intended meaning of that, Like what are they trying 501 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: to enforce or celebrate? Right? Is it valiant? Is it funny? 502 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: Is it honoring them? Is it scaring them? Like? What 503 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,160 Speaker 1: if they put that that image up at work here? 504 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 1: Like how would we take away from that? It's like, oh, 505 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: I don't know. Why are they both podcasters? So I 506 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 1: don't I don't know what's happening. So again, we're not 507 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: gonna be able to get into anywhere close to all 508 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,879 Speaker 1: the studies that discuss what daily life was like in 509 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 1: Pompeii or Herculaneum prior to the eruption of Vesuvius and 510 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,959 Speaker 1: seventy nine CE. But but I do want to discuss 511 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: just a few quick ones, and these are all relatively 512 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: recent that shed some interesting light on everything. So the 513 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 1: first one I want to talk about is a two 514 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 1: thousand seventeen University of Southern Denmarks studdy that looked at 515 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: the drinking water situation for the Romans of Pompeii and 516 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,120 Speaker 1: they found that while yes, lead pipes which they used 517 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 1: would sometimes poison the water, of the issue here is 518 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: they would quickly calcify, so you would only be dealing 519 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:20,680 Speaker 1: with high toxicity levels after they've been initially installed, or 520 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,680 Speaker 1: when you've had to make some repairs. So so the 521 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: lead would from time to time poison you, but that 522 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: the toxic chemical element antimony would have been more of 523 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: a factor. It was mixed with the lead, and it 524 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: was a more It was also more common in the groundwater, 525 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: as is typical of areas of volcanic activity. So this 526 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: would have, according to the researchers quote, lead to daily 527 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 1: problems with vomiting, diarrhea and liver and kidney damn. So um, 528 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: I mean, it's yeah, it's it's it's it's terrific to imagine. 529 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: But but but it does shed a little a little 530 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: more light, like what does it what does it mean 531 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: to have amazing and really advanced plumbing in uh in 532 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: seventy nine se Well, it probably being poisoned part of 533 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: the time, especially in this area. Well it makes me think. 534 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: So Pompeii is basically a rich town. It's kind of 535 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: a resort region. A lot of successful elites live there 536 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: poisoning themselves with diarrhea pipes, and it reminds me of 537 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: the raw water trend from a couple of years remember that. 538 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: So a lot of like rich tech world kind of 539 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: people decided they were going to pay fifteen dollars a 540 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 1: gallon for untreated drinking water full of giardia. I haven't 541 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: looked it up. Is that like, is that still a thing? 542 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 1: Or did that go away? I hope it went away, 543 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: but but I don't know. We'll have to say, maybe 544 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: we'll do an episode on that. Maybe we'll get them 545 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: as a sponsor. Who knows. UM. Now, a couple of 546 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: other study. Both of these other studies I'm going to 547 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: talk about our University of Cincinnati studies. UM Okay, there's 548 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 1: a teams there that have been working UH in Pompeii, 549 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: and both of them have really concerned, like refuse what 550 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 1: we can learn, not so much from the the artistry 551 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: that has survived or the human remains that we can 552 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: look at, but digging around in the trash, looking in 553 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: the sewer pipes and trying to solve the riddle of 554 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: you know what they ate, what they how they lived 555 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: and UH and you know how they disposed of their trash. 556 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: So there's two thousand and twelve University of Cincinnati study 557 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 1: looked at a question that has come up in archaeology 558 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: concerning trash uh in Pompeii. Why was there so much 559 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: garbage littered among the tombs? So one theory was that 560 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 1: we saw garbage dumped in tombs and at grave sites 561 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 1: that had been damaged by previous earthquakes in the vicinity, 562 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: and therefore they had been abandoned. And since this was 563 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: an abandoned you know, grave area that wasn't used anymore, 564 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: people decided what would have dump our trash here? Right? 565 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: Yesteryear's graveyard is today's dump. Yeah, And we see shades 566 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: of this in today's society. Right. You have you have, 567 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: say a house that's under repair or it's you know, 568 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: it's there's something, there's nobody's living there. One person dumps 569 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: some garbage there, and then suddenly other people were dumping 570 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: old couches and what have you. And there may be 571 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 1: signs to try and prevent people from doing it. But 572 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: now this is a place where garbage accumulates. Yeah, it's 573 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: the RLO three principle, you know, the Thanksgiving Day mask here? Okay, 574 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 1: is this from Alice's restaurant? Yeah? Okay, yeah, yeah, or 575 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: they find when you find garbage somewhere, you figure that's 576 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: where you put the other garbage on top that's that's 577 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 1: that's part of the human experience. However, in this particular study, 578 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: Allison Emerson argued that the Romans of the time they 579 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 1: simply had a more casual approach to trash. So she 580 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: points out that there's no evidence for any kind of 581 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 1: a centrally managed system for garbage disposal, and so life 582 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 1: was probably just lived in close proximity to the refuse 583 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: that created, especially in the alleys, the streets, roads, cemeteries, 584 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: and tombs as well. Plus one thing that she drives 585 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,719 Speaker 1: home is that coombs at the time, like these were 586 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: places you didn't want your tomb. Just today we think of, 587 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: oh where do I want to be buried? Where do 588 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: want my remains to go? I wanted to be a nice, 589 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 1: quiet place that occasionally be visited by children or families, 590 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: but for the most part is just left to the 591 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 1: squirrels and the birds. Uh So, Emmerson argues that this 592 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: was not the Roman way you wanted to be remembered. 593 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 1: Uh So, your tomb needed to be seen, Your tomb 594 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: needed to be in a place that was going to 595 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: be highly trafficked. Uh And so these tombs would have 596 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 1: been high traffic spaces, which meant people would probably be 597 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: littering everywhere that they would be leaving graffiti, etcetera. And 598 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: that was I mean, that was just part of it. 599 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 1: Like this is, you want to be seen, you want 600 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 1: to be remembered, You need to be in a living space. 601 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 1: Living space means graffiti and garbage. Oh yeah, this is 602 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 1: common in the ancient world. It makes me think of 603 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 1: the Chattelhoya situation where people would literally bury the remains 604 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 1: of their ancestors in the floor of the house where 605 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 1: they lived. Yeah, you want to be near the living 606 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: that's that's part of the whole equation here. And they 607 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: would often keep body parts of the like maybe keep 608 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 1: their head covered in plaster, just on the shelf. Now, 609 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 1: another University of Cincinnati study came from and this one 610 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 1: looked specifically at the drains, cisterns, and the trains of 611 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: Pompeii to learn what people ate. And it's interesting we've 612 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: we've talked about how yes, there were definitely some very wealthy, 613 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: uh members of Roman society in the area. This was 614 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: a very rich part of the Roman Empire. At the 615 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 1: same time, there were, of course commoners, there were people 616 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 1: lower down on the socioeconomic spectrum. And so in looking 617 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: at the the these remains, these vestiges of of the 618 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: of these diets were they were able to find these 619 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: clear socio economic divisions. So for instance, they looked at 620 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: one area and they found grains, or they found the 621 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 1: remnants of grains, fruits, nuts, olives, lintels, local fish and 622 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: chicken eggs, as well as minimal cuts of more expensive 623 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 1: meat and salted fish that had been imported from Spain. 624 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: And so this would have been you know, um, this 625 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: would have been the the the food of of people 626 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: lower down on the socioeconomic spectrum, the workers throughout the 627 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 1: regular people, yeah, eating you know, the staples, but then 628 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 1: occasionally having something a little more fancy. But then of 629 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,360 Speaker 1: course there were the richer areas, UH, and here they 630 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 1: found more imports from outside Italy, such as various shellfish, 631 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 1: sea urchins, and I love this detail, even delicacies that 632 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 1: included the butchered leg joint of a giraffe and UH 633 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 1: Professor Steven Ellis points out that the bone quote represents 634 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: the height of exotic food and is underscored by the 635 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,800 Speaker 1: fact that this is thought to be the only giraffe 636 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:53,239 Speaker 1: bone ever recorded from an archaeological excavation in Roman Italy, So, 637 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 1: as far as we know, the only bone from a 638 00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,399 Speaker 1: giraffe ever found in Italy at the time, and it's 639 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 1: in it's underneath the restaurant. Now, some of you might 640 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 1: be wondering, Well, you might think to yourself, well, it 641 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,359 Speaker 1: wouldn't even occur to me to eat a giraffe, which 642 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,280 Speaker 1: is a giraffe taste like? Well, there's a wonderful article 643 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 1: you should read on this. This was published in New 644 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:19,840 Speaker 1: York Magazine in februaryeen titled What does Giraffe Meat Taste Like? 645 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: By Adam Martin, and basically Martin says that, you know, 646 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: descriptions are gonna vary, but on one hand, you'll see 647 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,360 Speaker 1: it described as a very tender meat that is served 648 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,399 Speaker 1: extra rare and it kind of melts in the mouth. 649 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 1: Other accounts have said that it's an intensely flavored, lean 650 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,879 Speaker 1: meat like that of a tender horse, so like horse meat, 651 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 1: except not as tough, and another source said that that 652 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 1: giraffe meat was tough and chewy, but also flavorful. Now 653 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 1: I would have guessed like tough and gamey. Yeah, I 654 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 1: mean it's a wild animal. Yeah, this is not like 655 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,520 Speaker 1: the kind of the breeds of cattle that are bred 656 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 1: for meat. Yeah, yeah, I felt the same. And of 657 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,319 Speaker 1: course a big part of this too is like it's exotic, right, people, 658 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: And this is the reason why rich Romans would have 659 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: potentially ordered this on a menu. It's like, what do 660 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 1: you have? What are your specials today? Well, we have 661 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 1: the leg of a giraffe, you know, exciting. I've never 662 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 1: had that before. I will try it and then I'll 663 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 1: have some cost on how I respond to the taste. Now, Martin, 664 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 1: does our drive home though? That? Okay? Yes, there are 665 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: examples of modern giraffe meat that have been obtained legally, uh, 666 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 1: certain like from calling efforts in certain places. But if 667 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: you but don't use this as license to go and 668 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 1: try and obtain giraffe meat because it's also giraffe meat 669 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:42,320 Speaker 1: is going to bring with it a high risk of 670 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 1: being harvested unethically. So ultimately it's not worth it because 671 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:48,840 Speaker 1: it's not it doesn't sound like it's gonna taste great, 672 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,239 Speaker 1: and you don't want to go around trying to order 673 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 1: yourself up a leg of giraffe for the barbecue. Uh. 674 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 1: If you're going to have to contend with the fact 675 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 1: that it it might be obtained on ethnic I wonder 676 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:02,960 Speaker 1: how many pounds of meat you get out of side 677 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,400 Speaker 1: of giraffe. I mean, it's it's quite a bit. This. Uh. 678 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: This article by Martin goes into that a bit. How 679 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: sometimes they're poaching. There's there you'll see poaching of giraffes, 680 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 1: because if you land a giraffe, it's worth like, it's 681 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:16,359 Speaker 1: as much meat as you would get from say, sell 682 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:20,320 Speaker 1: several say in Paula or gazelles or something. Um. That 683 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 1: being said, it's going to be probably tough and weird. Yeah. Now, 684 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 1: if you were one of those people thinking like it 685 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: would never occur to you to eat a giraffe, I 686 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 1: was thinking like that, this this really indicates that you 687 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 1: do not have a Roman elite mentality. Because we've discussed 688 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 1: on the show several times. Uh, the Romans ate everything, 689 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 1: you know, like, oh, look at this interesting exotic animal. 690 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 1: Get the butcher knife. Uh. They were they were really like, 691 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: let's try to eat that culture. Uh. And apparently another 692 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 1: thing I was reading about is that they loved the 693 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 1: rare delicacy of flamingo tongue. I was reading about this 694 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 1: in Food of the Ancient World by Joan P. Alcock 695 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: or she writes quote flamingo's tongue was a great delicacy. 696 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 1: Emperor Vitellius in a d. Sixty nine presented the Goddess 697 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: Minerva with a dish containing peacock brains, pike livers, pheasant brains, 698 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:18,399 Speaker 1: and flamingo tongues, which he afterward eight, which is great. 699 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: You know you have to present it to Minerva and 700 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: then you know, chow down yourself because Minerva is not 701 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,240 Speaker 1: going to eat it. Now I feel above two minds 702 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 1: on all of this, because on one hand, yes, they 703 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 1: are all these wonderfully really exotic sounding things with the 704 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:35,239 Speaker 1: Romans eight. And yet if you had to decipher, like 705 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 1: which which menu of possibilities is more exotic and uh, 706 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 1: you know it depends on wider you know, geographic sourcing. 707 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 1: Is it this restaurant in Pompeii where the giraffe leg 708 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,760 Speaker 1: was was served? Is it even the the available menu, 709 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 1: say it even any given time in Rome itself? Or 710 00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,359 Speaker 1: is it what you might get at the largest Whole 711 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 1: Foods or Arby's your What's the restaurant with the colossal 712 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 1: menu cheesecake factory? You know, like like if you like 713 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,279 Speaker 1: trace the origins of all those things and see it 714 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 1: as see cheesecake factory as a restaurant of empire. Is 715 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,360 Speaker 1: it ultimately a larger empire by far than that of 716 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 1: the even like the richest table setting in the Roman Empire? Well, 717 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: I mean you clearly drive home that like some of 718 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,840 Speaker 1: our judgments about these kinds of things are completely arbitrary, 719 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,280 Speaker 1: you know, about like what is an exotic extravagant food 720 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 1: and what is just normal food? Like the Roman poet 721 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:40,839 Speaker 1: Marshall was actually he lamented the idea of eating flamingo tongues. 722 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,759 Speaker 1: I don't know why exactly, it's it's what's so bad 723 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,320 Speaker 1: about flamingo tongues compared to the other stuff. But he 724 00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:50,160 Speaker 1: was generally attacking, you know, like, uh, certain Roman elites 725 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 1: as decadent, decadent epicureans or whatever. But there's this couplet 726 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 1: that Marshall wrote that I found translated in a book 727 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,440 Speaker 1: called The Flamingo Smile by Stephen Jay Gould, And so 728 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,840 Speaker 1: Marshall wrote, my red wing gives me my name, but 729 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 1: epicures regard my tongue is tasty, But what if my 730 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 1: tongue could sing? Well, I think it sounds like what 731 00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:14,320 Speaker 1: he's getting at is a basic truth. The flamingo is 732 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 1: a beautiful animal that we love to look at. It 733 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 1: is it is different from other varieties of bird that 734 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 1: we might behold. And and that's why generally you go 735 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,239 Speaker 1: to a zoo, what's the first thing you see? Flamingos. 736 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:28,800 Speaker 1: They're like the standard greeters at it so many different 737 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:33,760 Speaker 1: zoological parks. I mean, flamingos are weird. They are beautiful 738 00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:35,880 Speaker 1: like that. I love the way they eat with their 739 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,879 Speaker 1: heads upside down, you know. In this book, Gould goes 740 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 1: on to write about the about how the flamingos tongue 741 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 1: has special texture and taste because of its unique evolutionary 742 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:51,360 Speaker 1: function that, unlike most birds, flamingos are actually filter feeders. 743 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:55,000 Speaker 1: They're more like billen whales. And they dip their heads 744 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 1: into the water turned down to and they open up 745 00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:00,279 Speaker 1: their mouths and they've got these little, uh, these hair 746 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 1: like things called lamelay. And then the tongue here the 747 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 1: part that the emperor would eat. It serves as a 748 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 1: kind of pump to like rapidly suck water in and 749 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,240 Speaker 1: out of the mouth through the filters. And this pulls 750 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:14,719 Speaker 1: in all the you know, weird little bits and life 751 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,279 Speaker 1: forms that the flamingos ultimately survived based on. But that 752 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:22,160 Speaker 1: it's this strange morphology that apparently made it so delicious 753 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 1: to uh to Roman epicures like Vitelius. Well, you know 754 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,360 Speaker 1: it's I guess it's possible it had a special taste 755 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 1: or special texture, uh that that made people want to 756 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,400 Speaker 1: eat it. But you get the impression that it's mostly 757 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:40,839 Speaker 1: like here is a unique animal. Uh, serve it to me. Well, 758 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,359 Speaker 1: I just want to say, as an addendum, Vitelius did 759 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,239 Speaker 1: not last long. He he was only emperor for less 760 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:49,160 Speaker 1: than a year. Uh. He he lost a power struggle 761 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,719 Speaker 1: to Vespasian, was dragged out of hiding by a mob 762 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,000 Speaker 1: of his enemies and beheaded in the streets of Rome. 763 00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 1: And uh, I attached a picture for you to look at. 764 00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:58,880 Speaker 1: I don't know if you've seen this artwork, but it's 765 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:01,200 Speaker 1: called Vitelius drag through the Streets of Rome by the 766 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,279 Speaker 1: Populace by George Rossia Gross. He looks like he's having 767 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 1: a bad day. Yeah, yeah, that is a yeah, that's that. 768 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,080 Speaker 1: That is a bad day for sure. But maybe he 769 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,200 Speaker 1: should have served giraffe to Minerva instead, and his luck 770 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:14,759 Speaker 1: could have changed well, I think even today it would 771 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:18,680 Speaker 1: probably be just political death for most politicians to to 772 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 1: suddenly publicly eat the tongue of a of a flamingo, 773 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,640 Speaker 1: or or eat a big chunk of giraffe at the 774 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:29,239 Speaker 1: Iowa State Fair and fried flamingo tongue on a stick. Yeah, 775 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,360 Speaker 1: I don't know. Well, okay, and now I'm second guessing myself, 776 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 1: But all right, on that lovely note, we will take 777 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:37,759 Speaker 1: one more break, but when we come back, we will 778 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:45,200 Speaker 1: return more specifically two volcanoes than alright, we're back. So 779 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,160 Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier how the slopes of Vesuvius, you know, 780 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,480 Speaker 1: once more, are home to vineyards and and uh in 781 00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:56,440 Speaker 1: human populations. The area around Vesuvius is highly urbanized today, 782 00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:00,720 Speaker 1: but authorities have established a red zone as ownA rosa 783 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,920 Speaker 1: to be evacuated if signs indicate that an eruption is 784 00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:08,160 Speaker 1: likely sona rosa. That sounds so nice, yeah, I mean, 785 00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:11,480 Speaker 1: or or it sounds like like a horror movie, doesn't 786 00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:17,640 Speaker 1: It kind of could be a jello like Lazona rosa. Yeah. Now, 787 00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:20,759 Speaker 1: the general consensus is that if these signs were to 788 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,799 Speaker 1: prevent themselves, we'd have about two weeks notice on an 789 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,280 Speaker 1: eruption but there are a lot has been written about, 790 00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:33,319 Speaker 1: like the the actual preparedness in place for an event 791 00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:37,400 Speaker 1: like this. So Lee Marshall wrote about this topic in 792 00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:41,920 Speaker 1: a September seen article for The Telegraph, pointing out that 793 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,640 Speaker 1: again at the time, seven hundred thousand people lived in 794 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:49,600 Speaker 1: this red zone of Vesuvius and while there there was 795 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:53,200 Speaker 1: a finalized evacuation plan and it was still in the 796 00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:59,000 Speaker 1: process of coming online in se Uh. But according to 797 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:05,280 Speaker 1: one Francisco Emilio Barelli regional Council for the Green Party, 798 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,960 Speaker 1: quoted in a November two thousand nineteen euronews dot com article, 799 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,800 Speaker 1: exercises regarding evacuation, we're no longer being carried out. And 800 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:18,080 Speaker 1: in that article Filippo Pultronieri pointed out that other urban 801 00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:23,120 Speaker 1: areas near volcanic areas are also highlighted for insufficient planning, 802 00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:28,200 Speaker 1: namely the island vacation destination of Iscia and Uh and 803 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:32,320 Speaker 1: also of Flagrian Fields, which is another another area in 804 00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:36,360 Speaker 1: that region that is known for its volcanic activity. Lee Marshall, 805 00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,440 Speaker 1: writing at the time, pointed out quote the notorious SS 806 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:43,000 Speaker 1: to six S eight dual carriageway between Naples and the 807 00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:46,480 Speaker 1: Sarentine peninsula design not only to relieve congestion but also 808 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,120 Speaker 1: provide an escape route from the volcano is still not complete. 809 00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:54,279 Speaker 1: Construction of the road started incredibly in the eighties. So 810 00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,680 Speaker 1: in that article, Marshall contended that the locals were more 811 00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:01,160 Speaker 1: inclined to take solace in religious faith than in emergency planning. 812 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,120 Speaker 1: Now this was obviously written a few years ago, and 813 00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,239 Speaker 1: I was looking around trying to find any confirmation that 814 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:11,560 Speaker 1: s S two has actually been completed and is you know, 815 00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,840 Speaker 1: in operation. I couldn't find any articles about it. Some 816 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,640 Speaker 1: of them were, you know, in Italian, somewhere translated into English. 817 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,600 Speaker 1: So if we have any Italian or Italian speaking Italian 818 00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:25,600 Speaker 1: reading listeners out there who want to set the record straight, uh, 819 00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:27,520 Speaker 1: we would love to hear from you. But based on 820 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:29,960 Speaker 1: I was looking around, like Google Maps. If you look 821 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,040 Speaker 1: a Google Map inquiry for a route between Naples and 822 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,560 Speaker 1: the Sarentine Peninsula, it initially only provides a route via 823 00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:41,000 Speaker 1: SS three, sixty six and forty five, which travels right 824 00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:44,040 Speaker 1: between the ocean and the slopes of Mount Vesuvius. So 825 00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:46,600 Speaker 1: like not a good place to be. So that sounds 826 00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:50,160 Speaker 1: like a roughly herculaneum zone. Yeah, yeah, like and like, yeah, 827 00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:52,480 Speaker 1: you don't want to be between Vesuvius and the ocean. Yeah, 828 00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:55,600 Speaker 1: this is this is definitely in the red zone. Um. 829 00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,520 Speaker 1: But the more I when I look closely, it looked 830 00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:01,480 Speaker 1: like you could actually route you on s S two 831 00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,760 Speaker 1: six if you drag the route around with your mouse cursor. 832 00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:08,520 Speaker 1: So I personally cannot tell to what degree like that 833 00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:11,560 Speaker 1: is now a valid option to deal with the evacuation. Okay, 834 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:15,919 Speaker 1: we have had an official Google Maps fail getting out, 835 00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:20,560 Speaker 1: but but to whatever degree you know this is finally 836 00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,919 Speaker 1: in place, etcetera. Like what I'm trying to to drive 837 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,880 Speaker 1: home from those articles that that I cited there is 838 00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,239 Speaker 1: that you know, we still live. We still have people 839 00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:34,759 Speaker 1: living in high concentration in areas near active volcanoes. And yes, 840 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:38,080 Speaker 1: even with modern science we may have again two weeks 841 00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:42,560 Speaker 1: notice on a pending eruption. But that's two weeks to 842 00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:46,360 Speaker 1: sometimes move a very large number of people out of 843 00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,600 Speaker 1: the danger zone. It, I mean, it makes you start 844 00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,480 Speaker 1: to wonder more broadly about like what are the kinds 845 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:57,200 Speaker 1: of risks that human settlements should be tolerant of, because 846 00:46:57,280 --> 00:46:59,400 Speaker 1: it's clear, you know, they are all kinds of places 847 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:03,239 Speaker 1: where are there are different risks of natural disasters that 848 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:06,239 Speaker 1: are going to come with different severity, different frequency. I mean, 849 00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:09,240 Speaker 1: I don't know how exactly you compare say, like densely 850 00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:14,440 Speaker 1: populated areas around a volcano that you know that sometimes 851 00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:18,040 Speaker 1: will erupt, hasn't had a majorly destructive eruption, and while 852 00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,000 Speaker 1: but you know probably is at some point in the 853 00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:23,960 Speaker 1: indeterminate future going to erupt again. Uh, and you know 854 00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,680 Speaker 1: that would be massively destructive versus I don't know, like 855 00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:31,040 Speaker 1: having civilizations in like a tornado zone where each you know, 856 00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:34,200 Speaker 1: each tornado is that tornadoes are going to be more regular, 857 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:37,360 Speaker 1: They're gonna happen every year. Each one is less destructive 858 00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:41,000 Speaker 1: than a volcanic eruption. But they're just coming in these 859 00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:43,600 Speaker 1: constant waves, and you just hope one doesn't come near 860 00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:46,120 Speaker 1: your house. Yeah, and then you have to what degree 861 00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:50,960 Speaker 1: are you leaning on emergency preparation or even again religious 862 00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:53,680 Speaker 1: faith to deal with that probability? Yeah, I guess, I 863 00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:55,319 Speaker 1: just mean, I don't know how to do the math 864 00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:59,520 Speaker 1: on you know, how to compare those types of risks, well, 865 00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:01,160 Speaker 1: I mean it, you know, the big one, of course, 866 00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:04,720 Speaker 1: is residing in coastal regions that are gonna be affected 867 00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,040 Speaker 1: by hurricanes, you know, and in some cases the I've 868 00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:10,120 Speaker 1: read that the best advice is like, well, if your 869 00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,000 Speaker 1: home is destroyed, like, do not rebuild it. You need 870 00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:16,719 Speaker 1: to move further inland. Um. So you know there there's 871 00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:21,000 Speaker 1: a version of this for for various different environments around 872 00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:23,719 Speaker 1: the world, I mean, even places where the risk is 873 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:28,360 Speaker 1: not as notably catastrophic. If it's just say, and a 874 00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:32,040 Speaker 1: region that is highly susceptible to the ravages of drought. 875 00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:34,759 Speaker 1: You know, Uh, it doesn't look as good on a 876 00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:39,360 Speaker 1: painting the drought, you know, reaking habit compared to that 877 00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,720 Speaker 1: of a volcano. But still it can be extremely deadly 878 00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:46,920 Speaker 1: and has proven deadly many times in the past. So 879 00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:49,920 Speaker 1: the suvious has been described as the most densely populated 880 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,840 Speaker 1: area of active volcanism in the world. But here are 881 00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:57,400 Speaker 1: a few others of note. Um. One is Cotapaxi, Ecuador, 882 00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:00,400 Speaker 1: which is actually a volcano. I hope to in the 883 00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:04,600 Speaker 1: in the not too distant future. Uh, three hundred thousand 884 00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:07,120 Speaker 1: people I've also seen it listed his three hundred twenty 885 00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:12,200 Speaker 1: five thousand live relatively closely nearby. A last eruption was 886 00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:16,040 Speaker 1: and it was mostly steam. But it is an area 887 00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:20,080 Speaker 1: of a frequent discussion with these and but on top 888 00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:21,840 Speaker 1: of that, it is also supposed to be just a 889 00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:27,640 Speaker 1: very beautiful location and fun fact, Alexander von Humboldt attempted 890 00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:31,160 Speaker 1: to climbate in eighteen o two. Oh, okay, I must uh, 891 00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:33,239 Speaker 1: that must be described in that book about him. I 892 00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:35,719 Speaker 1: like what I recommended this in our summer reading many 893 00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:40,080 Speaker 1: years ago, The Invention of Nature by Andrea Wolf. Fantastic 894 00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:42,600 Speaker 1: book about Alexander von Humboldt. If if you haven't read it, 895 00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:46,880 Speaker 1: you should. All right, here's another one, Katla, Iceland. This 896 00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:49,200 Speaker 1: is near the town of vic and it last erupted 897 00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:53,440 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighteen. Uh. Katla is even larger than e 898 00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:58,800 Speaker 1: figil Agical, which disrupted European flights when interrupted in So, 899 00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:01,520 Speaker 1: I've been to the town of I stayed in a 900 00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:05,360 Speaker 1: hotel near Vick one time, and I remember having a 901 00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:08,640 Speaker 1: conversation with the guy. The hotel I think was basically 902 00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,080 Speaker 1: this guy's house and it's sort of been expanded out 903 00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:14,520 Speaker 1: to have hotel rooms in it. Uh. And I remember 904 00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,000 Speaker 1: talking to this guy who ran the place, and he 905 00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:19,000 Speaker 1: was like showing us a map of the area on 906 00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:21,800 Speaker 1: the wall and just sort of talking about like you 907 00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:24,000 Speaker 1: know how, Yeah, here's what happened the last time the 908 00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,040 Speaker 1: volcano erupted, and it will erupt again at some point. 909 00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:29,480 Speaker 1: I don't know. It was strange. I mean, he he 910 00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:32,400 Speaker 1: must have just had a different attitude about this different 911 00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:35,920 Speaker 1: emotional relationship to the idea of his home being destroyed 912 00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,680 Speaker 1: by a volcano, because he didn't seem all that concerned 913 00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:41,680 Speaker 1: about it. He was just sort of matter of factly 914 00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:45,279 Speaker 1: explaining that at some point there will be a geological 915 00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:49,000 Speaker 1: event that will completely destroy his home. And uh, I 916 00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:51,479 Speaker 1: don't know if his matter of factness was just something 917 00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:54,000 Speaker 1: about this guy in particular, if more people would seem 918 00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:56,759 Speaker 1: more upset by the idea, or if like living in 919 00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:58,960 Speaker 1: a place like that kind of forces you to make 920 00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:00,920 Speaker 1: peace with it in a way that I don't know, 921 00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:03,040 Speaker 1: you're just like, yeah, that will happen at some point. Yeah, 922 00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:06,040 Speaker 1: I mean probably a little bit of both, right. Yeah. 923 00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:11,000 Speaker 1: A few other places of note. There's uh uh Sakura, Jima, Japan, 924 00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:14,839 Speaker 1: near the city of Kegoshima. That's a six hundred thousand people. 925 00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:20,640 Speaker 1: There's Mount Etna that we mentioned earlier. Then there's also Papocotta, Petal, Mexico, 926 00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:22,879 Speaker 1: And this is near Mexico City itself. And of course 927 00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:24,320 Speaker 1: one of the big concerns with all these is not 928 00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:27,520 Speaker 1: you know, it's not necessarily it's not only who are 929 00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:29,880 Speaker 1: in the danger zone, but then having to deal with 930 00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:35,239 Speaker 1: people from the danger zone, refugee crisis, et cetera. Now 931 00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:38,200 Speaker 1: you might be wondering, you know, why do we find 932 00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:40,960 Speaker 1: so many people living near some of these volcanoes. So 933 00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:44,040 Speaker 1: we've already touched, you know, on the the advantages of say, 934 00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:49,400 Speaker 1: the volcanic soil and all, and the geological advantages to 935 00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:51,839 Speaker 1: some of these locations, and you know, again on one level, 936 00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:53,440 Speaker 1: which just part of the human experience, part of living 937 00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:57,480 Speaker 1: on a volatile planet where various regions offer threats like hurricanes, tornadoes, 938 00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:01,920 Speaker 1: earthquake strouts, blizzards in more um. According to the U 939 00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:06,040 Speaker 1: S Geological Survey, not counting ocean floor volcanoes, which are 940 00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:08,480 Speaker 1: is where we find most of them, uh, there are 941 00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:13,839 Speaker 1: fifteen hundred potentially active volcanoes worldwide, five hundred of which 942 00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:17,520 Speaker 1: have erupted during historical time. Some of these are more 943 00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:20,239 Speaker 1: remote and perhaps only threatened a limited number of people, 944 00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,000 Speaker 1: such as say the two hundred people who live on 945 00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:27,680 Speaker 1: the remote Japanese island of Agoshima in the Philippine Sea. 946 00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:32,279 Speaker 1: This particular volcano last erupted in the eighteenth century, killing 947 00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:36,840 Speaker 1: half the population, and today UH people live inside the 948 00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:41,520 Speaker 1: volcanic crater depending on its geothermal power. And you can 949 00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:44,040 Speaker 1: you should look up a picture of this. It's spelled 950 00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:47,800 Speaker 1: A O G A s h I M A, and 951 00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:50,120 Speaker 1: they had some of these images. You can you see 952 00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:53,800 Speaker 1: the whole volcanic island and you can pinpoint um, you know, 953 00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:58,000 Speaker 1: the signs of human habitation within the crater. And again 954 00:52:58,040 --> 00:52:59,640 Speaker 1: it's just kind of a reminder of what it means 955 00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:01,880 Speaker 1: to be a human in UH. You know, on a 956 00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,680 Speaker 1: planet the is subject to to to upheaval like this. 957 00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:07,480 Speaker 1: And then of course they're the Hawaiian islands, which are 958 00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:11,520 Speaker 1: of course products of volcanic activity. The islands themselves were 959 00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:15,239 Speaker 1: created by eruptions, and then ideal bays and harbors or 960 00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:18,600 Speaker 1: you know, often the remnants of the calderas with Vesuvius, 961 00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:21,440 Speaker 1: the region is beautiful and economically valuable because of the 962 00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:24,320 Speaker 1: volcanic formation of the surrounding region, and on top of that, 963 00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:26,680 Speaker 1: the volcanic soil, like we mentioned in the first episode, 964 00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:30,160 Speaker 1: rich ideal for orchards and vineyards. And it's a vacation 965 00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:33,560 Speaker 1: destination as well. But isn't like the most active volcano 966 00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:36,759 Speaker 1: in the world in Hawaii. Yeah, Kilauea on the Big 967 00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:40,719 Speaker 1: Island is is quite active. Yeah, and uh and it's 968 00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:42,959 Speaker 1: it's really it's worth looking at because there's a there's 969 00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:45,799 Speaker 1: a wonderful two thousand eighteen New York Times article by 970 00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:50,680 Speaker 1: Simon Romero titled Hawaii's volcano country, where land is cheap 971 00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:53,360 Speaker 1: and the living is risky. And I thought this, this 972 00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:55,600 Speaker 1: is really telling to again getting that question of why 973 00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:59,560 Speaker 1: do people live in close proximity to uh to volcanoes sometimes? 974 00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:05,719 Speaker 1: Um so in this particular situation. Obviously, Hawaii is beautiful. 975 00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:09,319 Speaker 1: I love Hawaii. I have when I've visited. I've been 976 00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:11,640 Speaker 1: fortunate enough to visit a few times, and uh and 977 00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:13,839 Speaker 1: I always love it. I never want to leave when 978 00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:18,000 Speaker 1: I am there. But here's the thing. There's limited land there, 979 00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:21,600 Speaker 1: and the way that land is used is oftentimes controversial. 980 00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:24,600 Speaker 1: On top of this, there's a severe housing shortage and 981 00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:28,719 Speaker 1: very little affordable property, and uh, you know. Ramero writes 982 00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,600 Speaker 1: that the economic factors alone have led some on the 983 00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:34,360 Speaker 1: Big Island to live ever closer to the wrath of 984 00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:38,480 Speaker 1: this this beautiful but active volcano. In this article, which 985 00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:40,840 Speaker 1: I do recommend reading and full of, the author speaks 986 00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:43,400 Speaker 1: with one UH, an individual by the name of jaris 987 00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:49,000 Speaker 1: dreaming um musician, So that's thus the colorful name UH. 988 00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:52,600 Speaker 1: And he's an individual who purchased some one hundred acres 989 00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:56,080 Speaker 1: of land for a hundred thousand dollars. And the reason 990 00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:59,160 Speaker 1: it was so cheap was because it's very close proximity 991 00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:03,160 Speaker 1: to active lava flows. So not just the possibility of 992 00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:07,400 Speaker 1: volcanic activity, but the the visual like the clear of 993 00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:12,720 Speaker 1: volcanic activity of moving lava um another example. I just sorry, 994 00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:16,560 Speaker 1: I just had a question. How does real estate law 995 00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:20,920 Speaker 1: deal with lava flows that like change the outlines of land? 996 00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:26,239 Speaker 1: That's that's a great question. Yeah. Yeah, So like if 997 00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:28,319 Speaker 1: you say, if you own land and then it gets 998 00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:31,879 Speaker 1: paved over by lava flows, I assume you still own 999 00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:34,640 Speaker 1: I don't know how you measure it, like roughly the 1000 00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:38,000 Speaker 1: same land with the same borders. What about if so 1001 00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:41,320 Speaker 1: lava flows create new land going out into the ocean 1002 00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:44,640 Speaker 1: where it was previously, Like who gets that land? I 1003 00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:46,359 Speaker 1: don't know. That's a that's a good question. I'm thinking. 1004 00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:48,919 Speaker 1: I'm imagining that in most of the situations that we'd 1005 00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:51,480 Speaker 1: be able to look at, it would not be like 1006 00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:55,560 Speaker 1: an individual's land. I don't know that, would it be 1007 00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:59,120 Speaker 1: whoever owns the shoreline that it extends from, I guess. 1008 00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:02,200 Speaker 1: But then all so i'm I'm I'm pretty sure that 1009 00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:05,200 Speaker 1: would be off limits anyway, Like you wouldn't be able 1010 00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:07,239 Speaker 1: to They wouldn't let you even try to build an 1011 00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:11,640 Speaker 1: active lava um. For instance. An example that Romero brings 1012 00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:16,320 Speaker 1: up in this particular article is that a ninety eruption 1013 00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:20,440 Speaker 1: buried a hundred homes in Kalapana in uh In, Hawaii, 1014 00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:23,360 Speaker 1: on the Big Island, and today you'll find dozens of 1015 00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:26,719 Speaker 1: not to code homes that have been built atop the 1016 00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:29,680 Speaker 1: same flow field. So it's I mean, you know, this 1017 00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:32,799 Speaker 1: is the place was buried. Now there is new land there, 1018 00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:36,719 Speaker 1: and you know, apparently nobody's supposed to officially be living there, 1019 00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,840 Speaker 1: but there's available land there in a place where available 1020 00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:42,000 Speaker 1: land is scarce, so of course people are going to 1021 00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:44,719 Speaker 1: move there despite the risks. I mean, it's kind of 1022 00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:48,040 Speaker 1: like I think about haunted houses a lot, especially when 1023 00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:52,120 Speaker 1: when topics of like home values come up and and 1024 00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:54,560 Speaker 1: so forth. In part because I find those topics of 1025 00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:57,040 Speaker 1: dreary and depressing and I want to retreat into fantasy. 1026 00:56:57,480 --> 00:56:59,279 Speaker 1: But also I'm like, I would put up with a 1027 00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:01,960 Speaker 1: ghost of you know, I if it meant uh, you know, 1028 00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:05,839 Speaker 1: lower lower mortgage payment and whatnot. I maybe I'd even 1029 00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:07,960 Speaker 1: invent the idea of a ghost if it resulted in that. 1030 00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:11,600 Speaker 1: You know, um so, oh yeah, can you get a 1031 00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:14,480 Speaker 1: discount that way, like call up your bank and say, like, 1032 00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:16,600 Speaker 1: nobody told me this house was haunted. I want to 1033 00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:20,040 Speaker 1: I want to reduce my mortgage. Yeah, I mean, Plus 1034 00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:21,720 Speaker 1: the other side, the other way of looking at it 1035 00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:23,920 Speaker 1: is that you know, a ghost is much safer than 1036 00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:27,040 Speaker 1: an act of lava flow in your backyard, So I 1037 00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:28,760 Speaker 1: would be all for it. You know what this makes 1038 00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:31,240 Speaker 1: me think is we could do a whole other episode 1039 00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:36,640 Speaker 1: sometime on the theology of volcanic eruptions. Oh for sure, Yeah, yeah, yeah, 1040 00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:42,600 Speaker 1: the various divine interpretations of the eruptions, the mythological reasons 1041 00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:45,480 Speaker 1: given for the eruptions. That would be cool to get into. Yeah. 1042 00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:47,200 Speaker 1: We didn't even really touch that, dude, And I think 1043 00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:49,560 Speaker 1: the most we did was discussing how there were stories 1044 00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:53,520 Speaker 1: of the rumblings of Vesuvius being tied to tales or 1045 00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:58,160 Speaker 1: acculles fighting monsters or giants in the earth. Yeah. Probably. 1046 00:57:58,240 --> 00:57:59,680 Speaker 1: I think that has something to do with the naming 1047 00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:01,760 Speaker 1: of her Pullennium. Yeah, like the idea that it was 1048 00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:04,280 Speaker 1: founded by her Achilles. Yeah. And of course in uh 1049 00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:07,200 Speaker 1: in the culture of Hawaii you find the tales of 1050 00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:12,479 Speaker 1: of Pale the volcano deity. So yeah, there there would 1051 00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:15,120 Speaker 1: be a lot of rich territory to discuss there. So 1052 00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:18,360 Speaker 1: maybe we'll return if everybody's into the topic of volcanoes, 1053 00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:20,880 Speaker 1: there's a lot more to discuss. There's a like one 1054 00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:22,600 Speaker 1: area I'd like to come back to potentially would be 1055 00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:26,720 Speaker 1: to discuss volcanic winter discussed the year without summer. Yes, 1056 00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:29,000 Speaker 1: that would be uh, I think a good one to 1057 00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:33,080 Speaker 1: return to. We'll be back in the meantime, just like 1058 00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:36,280 Speaker 1: the lava flows will be back, Yes they will. It's 1059 00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:39,320 Speaker 1: an active world in the meantime. We would love to 1060 00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:41,560 Speaker 1: hear from any of you, especially if you out there 1061 00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:44,360 Speaker 1: have if you live or have lived in an area 1062 00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:48,760 Speaker 1: of volcanic activity, definitely right in and let us know 1063 00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:51,400 Speaker 1: what it's like. If you have, if you can answer 1064 00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:55,520 Speaker 1: our questions about the highways surrounding Vesuvius. We'd like to 1065 00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:57,160 Speaker 1: hear from you as well. Have you visited some of 1066 00:58:57,240 --> 00:59:00,760 Speaker 1: these places we we'd love to hear from you about 1067 00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:03,720 Speaker 1: that as well. Uh. In the meantime, also check out 1068 00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:06,840 Speaker 1: our other episodes. You'll find them wherever you get podcasts, 1069 00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:09,160 Speaker 1: wherever that happens to be. Just make sure you rate 1070 00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:13,560 Speaker 1: and review, give us some stars, subscribe, tell a few friends, 1071 00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:15,600 Speaker 1: and if you go to stuff to bow your Mind 1072 00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:17,480 Speaker 1: dot com that should re direct you to the I 1073 00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:20,560 Speaker 1: Heart listing for the show. Huge thanks as always to 1074 00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:23,760 Speaker 1: our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would 1075 00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:25,480 Speaker 1: like to get in touch with us with feedback on 1076 00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:28,160 Speaker 1: this episode or any other to suggest topic for the future, 1077 00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:31,400 Speaker 1: just to say hello, you can email us at contact 1078 00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:41,360 Speaker 1: at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to 1079 00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:43,360 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeart Radio's How 1080 00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:45,880 Speaker 1: Stuff Works. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit 1081 00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:48,680 Speaker 1: the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 1082 00:59:48,760 --> 01:00:05,200 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows. Blo we Quijotory, proper par