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Speaker 1: It's very difficult to keep the line between the.

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Speaker 2: Past and the pass. You believe that someone out of

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Speaker 2: the past can enter and take possession of a living being.

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Speaker 3: We may be through with the past, but the past

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Speaker 3: is not through with us.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to the Next Picture Show, a movie the Week

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Speaker 4: podcast to put it to a classic film and how

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Speaker 4: it shaped our thoughts on a recent release. I'm Keith

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Speaker 4: Phipps here.

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Speaker 5: With Genevieve Koski, Scott Tobias and Tasha Robinson.

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Speaker 4: Here are the Next Picture Show. We believe that no

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Speaker 4: film exists in a vacuum, and that all culture is

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Speaker 4: more interesting in context. So every other week we get

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Speaker 4: together to talk over a classic film and consider how

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Speaker 4: it relates to a current movie. This week we're looking

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Speaker 4: at a pair of love stories. I think, Tasha, if

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Speaker 4: you don't mind putting down your correspondence for a bit,

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Speaker 4: could you tell us about the films we'll be discussing.

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Speaker 1: Sure, but first you're gonna have to help me come

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Speaker 1: up with a killer costume idea for this ball. I'm

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Speaker 1: invited to this week's films. Both look at complex relationships

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Speaker 1: troubled by forces both within and without their central couples.

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Speaker 1: Both explore where the unspoken codes and shifting power dynamics

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Speaker 1: of marriage. Both consider the way outside elements can upset

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Speaker 1: romantic chemistry. Both feature powerful men and women who can

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Speaker 1: look powerless beside them, at least from a distance. Finally,

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Speaker 1: both are films that resist easy classification. Released in nineteen

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Speaker 1: forty and adapted from Daphne de Marier's novel, Rebecca brought

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Speaker 1: Alfred Hitchcock, famous for his beautifully crafted British thrillers, into

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Speaker 1: the American studio system. But in spite of the mystery

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Speaker 1: at its center, Rebecca is a departure from Hitchcock's earlier

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Speaker 1: light touch suspense hits like The Thirty Nine Steps and

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Speaker 1: The Lady Vanishes. It draws more from horror films and

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Speaker 1: melodramas for its unsettling tone. Paul Thomas Anderson's new phantom

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Speaker 1: Thread is similarly hard to find. It's a romance that

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Speaker 1: plays as if it's dancing on the edge of a tragedy.

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Speaker 4: Their slipperiness, however, helps unite them, as does their nebulous

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Speaker 4: take on coupledom, which opens them up to all manner

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Speaker 4: of interpretation. We'll get into that and more after the break.

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Speaker 6: The Seals, Nick Studios successor The Gun with a whim,

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Speaker 6: Rebecca brought to the screen with all the warmth and

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Speaker 6: emotion that made millions of readers acclaimed Daphne de Maurier's

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Speaker 6: best seller is the most exciting love story of our time.

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Speaker 6: The fascinating Max de Winter lives on the screen in

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Speaker 6: the person of Laurence Olivier.

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Speaker 2: Why It's next to meet?

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Speaker 1: How you knew?

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Speaker 6: The shy, unsophisticated young girl who dared to follow in

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Speaker 6: the footsteps of the beautiful Rebecca is portrayed by lovely

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Speaker 6: Joan Fontaine. How could I ask you to love?

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Speaker 2: Mom? And I knew you loved Rebecca? Still?

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Speaker 1: When have you touched here?

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Speaker 5: I knew you were comparingly with Rebecca?

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Speaker 6: What is the mystery of Rebecca? What Dread's secret? Is

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Speaker 6: hidden within the silent walls of Manderley.

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Speaker 2: Not only in this room, It's in all.

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Speaker 6: The rooms in the house.

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Speaker 2: Calm it here, now.

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Speaker 1: Do you sing to day?

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Speaker 2: Come back and watch the living? Just tell me.

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Speaker 6: It's missus van Hooper, a friend of yours or just

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Speaker 6: a relation.

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Speaker 2: No, she's my employer and what is known as a

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Speaker 2: pay companion.

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Speaker 5: No companionship could be pulled.

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Speaker 6: There is mystery, love and laughter in Rebecca. The motion

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Speaker 6: picture is still unsurpassed for suspenseful romance.

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Speaker 4: Alfred Hitchcock came to America to make a film about

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Speaker 4: the Titanic. Instead of telling the story of a sinking ship, however,

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Speaker 4: he made a movie about a burning house. Last night,

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Speaker 4: I drempt and went to Manderley again. Joan Fontaine's protagonist,

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Speaker 4: a woman will know only as a second missus de

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Speaker 4: Winner says over an appropriately dreamlike shot that slowly creeps

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Speaker 4: up to a cornish manner that seems not quite real.

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Speaker 4: She's speaking of it in past tense, but it's the

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Speaker 4: only moment that suggests the film as transparing as a flashback.

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Speaker 4: The effect is unavoidable. This is a place whose fate

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Speaker 4: is already sealed, and with it the fates of all

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Speaker 4: those who pass through it. The story may be just beginning,

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Speaker 4: but its outcome is fixed. Like the past itself, it

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Speaker 4: can only be revisited in dreams where we're helpless, incapable

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Speaker 4: of changing anything that do me. Foreboding opening sets the

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Speaker 4: tone for the film, but the characters within the film

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Speaker 4: itself often seem intent on being part of a different

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Speaker 4: sort of story. Fontaine's second missus to Winner is an

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Speaker 4: outsider to Manderally and to England's upper class. After marrying

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Speaker 4: Mandally's master, Maxim to Winner, played by Laurence Olivier, she

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Speaker 4: arrives unfamiliar with its ways and traditions. This leads to

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Speaker 4: quite a bit of awkwardness. She doesn't know how to

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Speaker 4: entertain or even how to fill her days, what room

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Speaker 4: to sit it at any given moment. She doesn't know

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Speaker 4: how to get along with Missus Danvers played by Judith Anderson,

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Speaker 4: Mandally's housekeeper and a woman who doesn't try to hide

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Speaker 4: her obsessive fixation on the first missus to Winner. And

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Speaker 4: then there's a matter of the first Missus de Winner herself,

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Speaker 4: the Rebecca of the title. Never seen and dead some

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Speaker 4: time before the film begins, she haunts Mandally as surely

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Speaker 4: as any ghost. It's not a Hitchcock picture, it's a novelette, really,

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Speaker 4: Hitchcock told Francois Truffau as part of the extensive interviews

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Speaker 4: that became the book Hitchcock Trufau. He continues, quote, the

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Speaker 4: story is old fashioned. There was a whole school of

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Speaker 4: feminine literature at that period, and though I not against it,

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Speaker 4: the fact is the story is lacking in humor. Hitchcock

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Speaker 4: felt he had reason to distance himself from the film.

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Speaker 4: Beyond a shortage of humor. Its production was defined by

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Speaker 4: his stormy relationship with producer David o' selznik, who insisted

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Speaker 4: on in a more faithful adaptation than Hitchcock wanted and

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Speaker 4: exerted control whenever possible. Nonetheless, Rebecca was a turning point

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Speaker 4: for Hitchcock, even beyond bringing him to America. It's the

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Speaker 4: place where his ambitions broaden, his themes deepen, and his

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Speaker 4: characters grow richer. Rebecca lacks the sort of suspense set

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Speaker 4: piece hitchcock fans might have come to expect, and its

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Speaker 4: central mystery is its weakest element, one softened by the

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Speaker 4: production code demands that Baxum himself could not kill Rebecca

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Speaker 4: as he did in the book. Instead, the suspense comes

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Speaker 4: from the interplay between its characters. Maxim's attraction towards the

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Speaker 4: second Missus de Winter sours then changes again, as a

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Speaker 4: relationship previously defined by his control over her, changes to

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Speaker 4: become one in which his salvation rests in her hands.

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Speaker 4: The links to which Missus danverts will conceal her true

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Speaker 4: motivations becomes its own kind of suspense. She barely hides

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Speaker 4: her love for her Rebecca and her hatred for her

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Speaker 4: successor until she doesn't hide it at all, And ultimately

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Speaker 4: that's the tention of the heart of the movie, between

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Speaker 4: what we hide and what we show, what we say

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Speaker 4: and what we keep to ourselves, and the choices we

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Speaker 4: make between these options when trying to determine what will

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Speaker 4: save us from a house that's destined to burn to

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Speaker 4: the ground.

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Speaker 2: Last night I dreamt I went to Mandily again. It

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Speaker 2: seemed to me. I stood by the iron gate leading

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Speaker 2: to the drive, and for a while I could not enter,

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Speaker 2: for the way was barred to me. Then, like all dreamers,

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Speaker 2: I was possessed of a sudden the supernatural powers, and

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Speaker 2: passed like a spirit through the barrier before me. The

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Speaker 2: drive wound away in front of me, twisting and turning

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Speaker 2: as it had always done, But as I advanced, I

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Speaker 2: was aware that a change had come upon it.

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Speaker 7: Nature had come into her own again, and little by

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Speaker 7: little had encroached upon the drive with long, tenacious fingers,

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Speaker 7: on and on.

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Speaker 2: While the poor thread that had once been our drive,

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Speaker 2: and finally there was Mandoly Mandally secretive and silent. Time

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Speaker 2: could not mar the perfect symmetry of those walls. Moonlight

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Speaker 2: can play our tricks upon the fancy. And suddenly it

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Speaker 2: seemed to me that light came from the windows, and

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Speaker 2: then a cloud came upon the moon and hovered an

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Speaker 2: instant like a dark hand before a face. The illusion

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Speaker 2: went with it. I looked upon a desolate chall with

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Speaker 2: no whisper of the past about its staring walls. We

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Speaker 2: can never go back to Mandally again, that much is certain,

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Speaker 2: but sometimes in my dreams that I do go back.

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Speaker 4: So Rebecca, I hadn't seen this in a while. I

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Speaker 4: was really happy to revisit it. How about everybody else?

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Speaker 1: It had definitely been quite a while for me. I

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Speaker 1: think I last saw this in college, and I've seen

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Speaker 1: a lot of Hitchcock since and revisited some hitchcock multiple

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Speaker 1: times since then. This is not one of my favorite hitchcocks.

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Speaker 1: I really like some of the performances in this. There

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Speaker 1: are some just indelible moments and sequences. The cinematography is

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Speaker 1: really impressive. There's a lot to recommend it, but at

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Speaker 1: the same time, I don't love the structure of it.

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Speaker 1: Which kind of bogs down for me a bit in places,

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Speaker 1: and especially towards the end, it kind of falls into

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Speaker 1: that Hitchcockian problem of now we're going to explain everything

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Speaker 1: from a psychological vantage point. I would have liked to,

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Speaker 1: I think, in the end spend more time either with

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Speaker 1: the second Missus to Winter or with Missus Danvers. There's

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Speaker 1: just there's so much drama there, There's so much tension,

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Speaker 1: and they're both such such interesting characters. I kind of

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Speaker 1: feel like the climax of the movie happens between them

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Speaker 1: on that balcony, and everything from there is just kind

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Speaker 1: of explanation of the past in a way that makes

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Speaker 1: the film feel a little stiff.

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Speaker 3: I guess I would agree with you, but not quite

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Speaker 3: as strongly. I think that if you were to say,

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Speaker 3: maybe the third act is certainly not the strongest of

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Speaker 3: the three. But what's good about the film is really extraordinary.

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Speaker 3: To me seeing it again, especially on a Criterion Blu ray,

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Speaker 3: it was just Hitchcock never worked before, and really again,

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Speaker 3: if maybe North playly Northwest to be example of this

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Speaker 3: level in terms of production values, it's such a rich, beautiful,

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Speaker 3: like classy production and the photography as you mentioned the

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Speaker 3: production design, the costumes, there's just an opulence to it.

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Speaker 3: I think that's something that David L. Selznik brings to

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Speaker 3: the table that Hitchcock never really had before or since,

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Speaker 3: and that makes this film special. And then on top

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Speaker 3: of that, I think the performances by Fontaine, by Olivia,

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Speaker 3: and especially by Anderson just they're wonderful and these are

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Speaker 3: really strong characters and a melodramas gripping for as long

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Speaker 3: as it can be until that you get to that mystery,

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Speaker 3: which is as Keith mentions as exciting, but overall I

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Speaker 3: love it. I think it's really top drawer for me.

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Speaker 5: The kind of the whole movie is that scene where

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Speaker 5: the second Missus de Winter goes into Rebecca's room and

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Speaker 5: is confronted by Missus standers. Like nothing to me even

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Speaker 5: approaches that scene in terms of just the depth of

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Speaker 5: themes and character is seeing, but also in terms of

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Speaker 5: how it meshes with that opulence that you know, which

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Speaker 5: is one of the most appealing parts of this film

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Speaker 5: for me too. And yeah, I'll just chime in on

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Speaker 5: not really feeling the third act and adding that, I

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Speaker 5: think in addition to it maybe being sort of a

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Speaker 5: thing that Hitchcock struggled with throughout his career. Is the film,

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Speaker 5: as Keith mentioned, is kind of ncapped by the production

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Speaker 5: code and having to sort of explain their way out

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Speaker 5: of the would be the more satisfying conclusion of the

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Speaker 5: quote unquote mystery such as it is. So it's just

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Speaker 5: kind of a conflation of bad circumstances at the end.

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Speaker 4: Turn Summers else to get out of that too. But

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Speaker 4: that said, the production code wasn't really getting in the

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Speaker 4: way of some other elements the whole. That scene is

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Speaker 4: so remarkable and so intense and so creepy and sad

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Speaker 4: as well. I mean, missus Danver is completely the villain

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Speaker 4: in this film. But you know, she's a woman who

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Speaker 4: clearly has loved somebody and wants something and had some

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Speaker 4: happiness in her life that's been taken away from her,

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Speaker 4: and that's you know, she's going to hurt people now

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Speaker 4: because of that. But at the same time, you know,

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Speaker 4: you see where she's coming from in that scene. I mean,

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Speaker 4: it's it's a remarkable sequence. And yeah, I don't love

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Speaker 4: the third act. I do love the ending. The actual

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Speaker 4: burning of a manderally is such an extraordinary visual and

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Speaker 4: I love the opening so much. It's such a great

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Speaker 4: you know not not to get back on an old

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Speaker 4: topic I've talked about before, it's a case for where

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Speaker 4: special effects that aren't necessarily realistic can be more effective.

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Speaker 4: I mean everything is you know, it's all miniatures there

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Speaker 4: at the beginning, and it's it feels not quite right,

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Speaker 4: not quite real, but it shouldn't, you know. And I

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Speaker 4: think that's the perfect use of that. I love Fontane

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Speaker 4: in this movie too. I have it on the list

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Speaker 4: chair of things to get into later. But it is

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Speaker 4: tough for someone who's that pretty to play someone who

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Speaker 4: doesn't think of herself as such. I think to herself

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Speaker 4: as mousey and undesirable, and we really get a feeling

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Speaker 4: that she doesn't understand how she can be swept into

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Speaker 4: this glamorous life. And you know, I think the whole

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Speaker 4: movie in a lot of ways and hinges on being

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Speaker 4: there and believing that. And I think she does a

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Speaker 4: remarkable job in this movie.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that performance and what Hitchcock is able

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Speaker 3: to do by really locking into her perspective and really

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Speaker 3: getting us to feel how powerless she is in that

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Speaker 3: situation of how she's just gifted in a way cursed

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Speaker 3: with this opportunity as just a lowly companion, paid companion,

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Speaker 3: to be able to be the wife of someone who's

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Speaker 3: rich and important. But then when she arrives, I mean,

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Speaker 3: what can she do? I mean, you know, even if

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Speaker 3: it weren't full of embroidered ours everywhere, reminding her that

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Speaker 3: this is not her home, just to adjust to what

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Speaker 3: is expected of her and what her life is supposed

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Speaker 3: to be. You know, you really feel for her, and

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Speaker 3: you feel how trapped she is, and that's like, that's

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Speaker 3: a good direction, and that's good good acting.

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Speaker 5: Speaking of those monogrammed ours and reading about this film

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Speaker 5: in preparation, I came across the factoid that Selznick wanted

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Speaker 5: the smoke from the fire to make.

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Speaker 1: An r A in the sky.

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Speaker 5: So terrible idea, very yeah.

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Speaker 4: Very ideas, and so also full of pills.

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Speaker 5: So I think I think the final image we landed

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Speaker 5: on is preferable.

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Speaker 1: In mind, it's always fun to hear about. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is effectively the deleted scene of its day, because

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Speaker 1: Hitchcock apparently came in and reshot that because he knew

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Speaker 1: it was a terrible, tacky idea, and just it makes me,

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Speaker 1: it makes me like him just a little bit more.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm a huge Hitchcock fangirl, but knowing that,

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Speaker 1: like somewhere somewhere in the back of his head, he

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Speaker 1: was like, I'm going to wait till sales Nick is

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Speaker 1: busy with another project, and I'm gonna sneak in and

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Speaker 1: fix that, because that is some crap.

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Speaker 4: As such as a Hitchcock fangirl self described, we should

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Speaker 4: talk about how this fits into his filmography. I may

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Speaker 4: have drawn it as too convenient of a dividing line

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Speaker 4: between what came before and what came later, but I mean,

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Speaker 4: just looking at it, like, I feel like there's a

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Speaker 4: depth and a darkness and an investment in characters in

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Speaker 4: films like Suspicion and Saboteur and Shadow of Doubt and

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Speaker 4: things that come immediately afterwards, to say nothing other films

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Speaker 4: of your vertigoes and such that come later that wasn't

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Speaker 4: as present before. You know this, this is some way's

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Speaker 4: kind of an outlier in his filmography. It's for all

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Speaker 4: the unmistakable hitchcocky and touches, it's in some ways outside

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Speaker 4: the genre and which he usually works. But how do

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Speaker 4: you see that? As you know, am I wrong? Described?

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Speaker 4: It as kind of a turning point, or how do

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Speaker 4: you see it fitting in into the rest of his filmography.

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Speaker 1: I don't think you're wrong at all. Turning point may

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Speaker 1: be a little strong, but it does feel like a

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Speaker 1: break from the past. I have to wonder how much

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Speaker 1: of that is Sell's next influence here, though, because Hitchcock

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Speaker 1: has such an interest in the psychology of people, in

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Speaker 1: this cology of relationships in particular, and he has such

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Speaker 1: an interest in that kind of like dark, troubled psychological

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Speaker 1: profile and the horrible things that it leads to, and

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Speaker 1: there's so much of that here, but it feels so

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Speaker 1: buried under a very Selznicki informality. The fascination with these

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Speaker 1: vast spaces and people moving silently through them, the just

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Speaker 1: the whole idea of like the grandeur of English country

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Speaker 1: living among the immensely well to do. There's a formalism

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Speaker 1: to that that I really don't see in a lot

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Speaker 1: of Hitchcock's work. And I feel like he has these

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Speaker 1: very vibrant characters and they kind of rattle around a

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Speaker 1: little bit inside these spaces. The scenes where he gets

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Speaker 1: close up on his characters and he concentrates on their emotion.

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Speaker 1: You know, the scene where Olivier explains what happened, the

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Speaker 1: scene in the balcony, and the whole bedroom scene just

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Speaker 1: resonate for me in such a bigger way than you know,

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Speaker 1: for instance, when Fontaine is exploring the house and being

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Speaker 1: intimidated by it.

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Speaker 4: Oh God, I love that stuff so much.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying I don't love it. We're just talking

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Speaker 1: about where it fits with you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean I think it was it's important,

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Speaker 3: and that he was making a big production and learning

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Speaker 3: what that's like Hollywood production, right, because he he'd made

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Speaker 3: he made.

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Speaker 4: The kind of equivalent of getting a Marble movie. I was,

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Speaker 4: I was.

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Speaker 3: I was actually half joking that David o' selsdick was

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Speaker 3: the Kevin figue of this day in the sense that

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Speaker 3: they It's true with the sense in the very narrow

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Speaker 3: sense that Selznick was like producer as a tour and

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Speaker 3: that he asserted himself into his productions in a way

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Speaker 3: that made his presence felt. But I also think there's

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Speaker 3: kind of a productive clash happening here between two sensibilities

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Speaker 3: between Hitchcock and Selznick and their elements that Selznick brings

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Speaker 3: to the table. Purely in terms of production value. That

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Speaker 3: enhanced the film enormously, and that Hitchcock takes advantage of

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Speaker 3: as much as possible, you know, particularly once you get

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Speaker 3: inside the house and explored. I love all of that stuff.

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Speaker 3: I loved, you know, getting to know that this huge

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Speaker 3: team that runs the place and seeing all the rooms

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Speaker 3: and how they're decorated in meaningful ways. I mean there's

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Speaker 3: a lot. There's so much thought put into that and

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Speaker 3: so much money. So there's that, And as far as

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Speaker 3: I think it was a probably learning experience for Hitchcock

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Speaker 3: in terms of how do I work in Hollywood and.

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Speaker 1: What can I get away with? Where can I push back?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: How much can I sneak in and fix the things

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Speaker 1: I don't like when the producer's not looking?

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And I think there's a thing too about Hitchcock learning

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Speaker 3: that John Ford thing of shooting movies subsequent movies in

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Speaker 3: such a way to where they could not be screwed

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Speaker 3: with in post production. Right, that was the forward technique,

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Speaker 3: just like I'm going to make it the film so

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Speaker 3: that it can't be cut any other way than the

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Speaker 3: way I wanted to be cut. Maybe that was a

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Speaker 3: takeaway as well, But I think it's a pretty important

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Speaker 3: movie in his career, even though it seems strange, and

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Speaker 3: I think it's got Hitchcocky in touches of it. Even

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Speaker 3: though it's not you know, Wheredigo or Rear Window, it's

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Speaker 3: still very much recognizable Hitchcock.

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Speaker 1: Film for sure. I mean, it's still got the dark

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Speaker 1: psychological value. And I do feel like Fontaine is a

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Speaker 1: very Hitchcocky female protagonist. I feel like she's very much

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Speaker 1: of a cut of other Hitchcocking protagonists that we see

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Speaker 1: that have that same kind of of combination of liveliness

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Speaker 1: and just a little bit of insecurity, of kind of

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Speaker 1: pushy forwardness and yet reticence when they're confronted with a

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Speaker 1: stronger personality. You know, they're very vibrant on screen, but

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Speaker 1: at the same time they're just a little demure to

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Speaker 1: kind of fit in with the times. Like she feels

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Speaker 1: very much like a Hitchcocking character, and Missus Danvers feels

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Speaker 1: like an early version of Norman Baits or an early

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Speaker 1: version of Norman baits mother, both visually and just in

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Speaker 1: terms of the sheer, quiet menace she projects, even when

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Speaker 1: she's not running around with a knife in her hand.

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Speaker 4: Maybe it's just I'm older, but I remember her being older,

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Speaker 4: and she's not old. She's younger than me when she

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Speaker 4: made this movie, yet she's in her early forties. It's

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Speaker 4: strange how maybe the mind kind of conflates Missus Baits

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Speaker 4: and Missus Danvers and at some point.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's the it's the hairstyle and the clothing style. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's very, very similar visually.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's all we're talking about Missus Danvers. What is

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Speaker 4: your reaction? I kind of laid out mine a little

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Speaker 4: bit earlier, But how do you feel about Missus Stanvers.

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Speaker 1: I mean, she's terrifying, and I think it's fascinating how

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Speaker 1: terrifying she is. But as you say, there's that moment

385
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Speaker 1: in the bedroom where she's I feel like she's authentically

386
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Speaker 1: trying to share her love of the old Missus de

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Speaker 1: Winter with the new girl, and she gets the softness

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Speaker 1: on her face, especially when she's creepily stroking the woman's

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Speaker 1: face with the fur coat, where she's just so clearly

390
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Speaker 1: trying to open up to somebody, trying to communicate with somebody.

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Speaker 1: And I love that performance so much because there's that

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Speaker 1: entire sequence feels you can feel the struggle between this

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Speaker 1: is the most important thing in my life and I

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Speaker 1: want to share it with you. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: this is proof that you're never going to be any

396
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Speaker 1: good and you should die like she's lording it over her.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, just something comes into her

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Speaker 1: face that's a vulnerability of this is so wonderful. I

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Speaker 1: love this so much. By the way here or her underthings,

400
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Speaker 1: it's such a terrific combination of creepiness and openness and awfulness.

401
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Speaker 1: And I really wish the Celluloid Clauset hadn't told me

402
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Speaker 1: that it was all just a coded version of she's

403
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Speaker 1: a lesbian, so she's evil.

404
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Speaker 4: It's more she's a lesbian and she's evil. Maybe I

405
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Speaker 4: don't know.

406
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Speaker 1: I mean, the Celluloid Clouset very much makes the point

407
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Speaker 1: that in the erase those were one and the same.

408
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Speaker 1: It was just another way of characterizing evil.

409
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Speaker 5: It's probably the only way that those undertone slash overtones

410
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Speaker 5: made it past the sensors is that she is evil

411
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Speaker 5: and is killed and gets circumuppents at the end. Pretty

412
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Speaker 5: much villains had to die in.

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Speaker 4: The in the code, right, yeah, arrest her death.

414
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Speaker 5: I know it feels like a character that is definitely

415
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Speaker 5: shaded by circumstance, like the circumstance under which this movie

416
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Speaker 5: was made. That I don't want to say extratextuals Scott,

417
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Speaker 5: but I think it's It's one you really kind of

418
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Speaker 5: have to take into it account when reading this character

419
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Speaker 5: unless you just want to totally ignore those undertones slash overtones.

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Speaker 3: So you thought it was pretty like obvious.

421
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Speaker 5: That there was some Yeah, I think the moment when

422
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Speaker 5: she's like fondling her lingerie from the inside and noting

423
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Speaker 5: how sure it is, I think that's kind of the

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Speaker 5: moment where any doubt was stripped away.

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Speaker 4: It's an aesthetic thing.

426
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Speaker 5: You know that this this movie does really like sheer material.

427
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Speaker 5: I will give it that. So maybe it's just an

428
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Speaker 5: extension of that. Lots of billowing curtains, you.

429
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Speaker 1: Can see your hands right through it. Yeah, So am

430
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Speaker 1: I wrong in feeling like there's a build to her

431
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Speaker 1: character that I don't remember from the first time I

432
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Speaker 1: saw this movie. I feel like when I really wish

433
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 1: that the second Missus de Winter had a first name.

434
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,439
Speaker 1: It's telling and interesting and yet just really sort of

435
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,879
Speaker 1: frustrating that she doesn't have an identity before she becomes

436
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:49,359
Speaker 1: his wife.

437
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,520
Speaker 3: But it pays off so well when she when she

438
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,360
Speaker 3: just says it, when she says, I'm.

439
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,439
Speaker 1: Either I've got so much to say about that moment,

440
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,320
Speaker 1: but this is a different moment. I feel like when

441
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 1: she first shows up at the house, there is a

442
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,840
Speaker 1: sort of slow sequence with Missus Danvers where she is

443
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:12,000
Speaker 1: authentically willing to welcome somebody new into the house, and

444
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,920
Speaker 1: she's waiting for that in the same sort of way

445
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,640
Speaker 1: that you know, when you have a crush on somebody

446
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 1: and that person leaves or that relationship ends in whatever way,

447
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,200
Speaker 1: you might hold onto the crush, but when you meet

448
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,920
Speaker 1: somebody new, you might be open to a new relationship.

449
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 1: I feel like there's just a sort of touch of

450
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,359
Speaker 1: is this going to be the new most important thing

451
00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,399
Speaker 1: in my life? And then she sees her and it

452
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 1: just slowly starts to go downhill, and I feel like

453
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,680
Speaker 1: there's a build in the story where you can actually

454
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 1: watch Missus Danvers become more and more disapproving and more

455
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:46,920
Speaker 1: and more set in that way. I think that if

456
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 1: she had showed up and had been, you know, more

457
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,520
Speaker 1: like the old the old Rebecca, if she had been

458
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 1: more commanding and put Missus Danvers in her place from

459
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,160
Speaker 1: the beginning they might have had a very different relationship,

460
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,800
Speaker 1: and that makes the movie very interesting for me. Am,

461
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:04,480
Speaker 1: I am I wrong? Or I'm making this up?

462
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, so it does just sort of her, I mean,

463
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 4: there's sort of a general wickedness to her, or there's

464
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 4: sort of a wickedness recognized wickedness moment went between she

465
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:18,439
Speaker 4: and George Sanders' character, Rebecca's cousin and lover, where they

466
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,440
Speaker 4: have like sort of this kind of unholy packed between

467
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,680
Speaker 4: the two of them. It's a very interesting relationship.

468
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 7: Yeah.

469
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 5: I think it's interesting that through that relationship it's revealed

470
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,919
Speaker 5: that Rebecca and presumably Favel as well, called her Danny

471
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 5: like missus danversus Danny, and just like it's so different,

472
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 5: so like such a different way of addressing and thinking

473
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,400
Speaker 5: about that character, and just like I think the evocation

474
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 5: of that name suggests something about the relationship between Missus

475
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:51,439
Speaker 5: Danvers slash Danny and Rebecca that adds a lot of

476
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,879
Speaker 5: shading to the circumstances we are seeing her in now.

477
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 3: Is it relevant and mean, we haven't talked about though

478
00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:01,439
Speaker 3: Missus danvers relationship to Maxim though, whether that's relevant to

479
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 3: all this too, because I mean to give you, I

480
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 3: guess maybe a sneak preview it to the next episode.

481
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 3: If you're looking at analog, the serial character Phantom Thread

482
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 3: would be your Danvers character, and she's very protective of

483
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 3: her brother and has and suspicious of the Fontane character

484
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 3: of that film, who's Alma. So I'm curious about what

485
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:27,680
Speaker 3: you thought of Missus Danver's relationship to Maximum and how

486
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 3: that figures into the sort of welcome that she gives

487
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:31,639
Speaker 3: Fontane a Jamin.

488
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 5: I didn't really think about them having a relationship outside

489
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,439
Speaker 5: of her relationship to Rebecca like she seems, unless I

490
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 5: miss some dialogue. She seems like just an artifact of

491
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 5: Rebecca that has continued to linger around the house, which

492
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 5: I guess is maybe a way to frame her in

493
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 5: Maxim's relationship, is that she is sort of this imposing

494
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 5: black column of a reminder of his sins, so to speak.

495
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, she perpetuates the whole that Rebecca had over him,

496
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,880
Speaker 4: which we don't really understand until fairly late in the movie.

497
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,200
Speaker 4: But yeah, I think as much as symbolic as an

498
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 4: actual personal relationship.

499
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,159
Speaker 3: What does she want though, what is Missus Denver's I think.

500
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 4: She wants to kind of keep it as a haunted house.

501
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 5: Yes, she wants to preserve Rebecca's room and fill it

502
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:23,679
Speaker 5: with fresh flowers every day and keep anyone away from it,

503
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 5: you know.

504
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 1: And she certainly wants to stay in the house, you know.

505
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 1: She I always felt that there was just the faintest

506
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 1: hint of jealousy of him, because you know, he got

507
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 1: to be married to her, he got to be close

508
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 1: to her, at least from what she sees. But she

509
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 1: has to kind of maintain this like formal uprightness and

510
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 1: like do an excellent job because she has to stay

511
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 1: in his employ or she might be sent away from

512
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 1: Rebecca's things and Rebecca's memories. That said, I mean, I

513
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 1: think their relationship is very formal and precise and proper.

514
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 1: But I also think that he's fairly oblivious to it.

515
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 1: Like he goes off into his fits of melancholy, but

516
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: it really seems like that's entirely internal to him, and

517
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 1: she doesn't have that much effect on him. I will

518
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 1: see him as somebody who cares that much about the help.

519
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,160
Speaker 5: Well, she wears black and is over thirty six, so

520
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 5: he doesn't care about.

521
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: Oh my god. The moment where he tells his new

522
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 1: wife to never be thirty six and just oh gosh,

523
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 1: the whole business about him being so disappointed in her

524
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:32,160
Speaker 1: because she stopped seeming clumsy and innocent. There's like there's

525
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 1: just a hint of Twilight in all of this. That's

526
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 1: really kind of gross.

527
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:40,439
Speaker 5: I mean, there's a very overt infantilization happening in his attractions,

528
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 5: such as it is to the second Missister Winter that

529
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 5: is really icky.

530
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: The moment where he tells her that if she asks,

531
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 1: she really has to wear her coat to go out,

532
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 1: and he says, oh, yes, you can't be too careful

533
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 1: with children. Yeah, and he's referring to her that I

534
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: mean they're married at that point. That's gross.

535
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is. I think the film knows that, Oh yeah, absolutely.

536
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 4: The film plays it to the hell and then when

537
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 4: you know, it shifts to all the power rests with

538
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 4: her after a certain point. I think that's part of

539
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 4: what makes the film interesting. I think that's part of

540
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 4: why we're comparing it to Phantom Thread.

541
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 1: I will say this, most of my problems with the

542
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 1: film are just structurally, because the most interesting characters drop

543
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 1: away over time and are replaced by an endless series

544
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 1: of men explaining things just giving like lengthy end of

545
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 1: psycho esque speeches. But the tension that the film builds

546
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 1: between characters, and particularly the way it sets us up

547
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 1: to want some very specific things, is up there with

548
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: some of Hitchcock's best tension. And it starts with the

549
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: second Missus de Winter and her terrible, terrible employer who

550
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,640
Speaker 1: beerates her and infantilizes her and talks down to her,

551
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: and just every moment that they're together, you're gritting your

552
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,880
Speaker 1: teeth and saying, get out of there, get out of there.

553
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 1: And then she goes on and starts dealing with Missus Stanvers,

554
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 1: and you're gritting your teeth and saying, you know, make

555
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,880
Speaker 1: her stop, stand up for yourself, stop putting yourself down.

556
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: And she has her relationship with her husband and he

557
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: treats her like a child, and you're gritting your teeth

558
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 1: and saying, you know, grow up. And the moment I

559
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: told you we were going to get back to this, yes,

560
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 1: the moment where she says I am Missus de Winter,

561
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 1: it's just like such physical relief.

562
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's where the fact that they don't give her

563
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 3: name pays off, because her not having a name, not

564
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 3: having an edity not even mean worth having a name,

565
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 3: being such a worthless human being that of no stature

566
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 3: that the film itself even denies her name. It just

567
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 3: it makes that moment of self actualization and power so

568
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 3: refreshing and exciting when when she finally gets to that point,

569
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 3: and then of course when she can finally share some

570
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 3: real intimacy and something unique with Maxim, you know, some

571
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 3: knowledge about who Rebecca really was, and they can actually

572
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 3: talk about it, and they finally have a stake in

573
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 3: this thing together as a unit. It just, you know,

574
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 3: the whole atmosphere of the film just shifts in a

575
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 3: very exciting way.

576
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 5: But in between those two moments, missus Danvers basically makes

577
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 5: her pay for asserting herself with the whole costume. Yeah trick,

578
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 5: you know, And so it's not as simple as like

579
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 5: she asserts that this is who she is and then

580
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 5: she becomes that person, Like there's forces keeping that from

581
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 5: that's true.

582
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 3: I was, I wasn't mindful of the time. Whine there

583
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 3: and who can forget the u that costume which of

584
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 3: course you know that's coming. Yeah, you know, like, oh,

585
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 3: this is don't take don't take costume, this is Danvers,

586
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 3: this is not going to go, well.

587
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 5: But I am suspicious of the fact that, for as

588
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 5: much as everyone in this house likes to talk about Rebecca,

589
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 5: no one pointed out to her that that was Rebecca

590
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 5: at any point prior to this conversation.

591
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 1: I don't think that was Rebecca. I think that was

592
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 1: a like some ancestor of Maxims. She just wore the

593
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: same costume. God, that's not an image of her in

594
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 1: the costume.

595
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 5: Okay, well that makes sense. I retract my s objection.

596
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't. We don't see a picture of Rebecca,

597
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: do we. I think that's very important because it lends

598
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 1: it lets you imagine the most beautiful thing you can imagine.

599
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: And I think if we saw an image of her,

600
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: we'd immediately start to compare that to everybody's descriptions of her.

601
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 3: It doesn't have the mister hollins opis problem.

602
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 1: Remember that art we've been talking about for the whole

603
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: film here is that art? Judget Hard see also Rent

604
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:27,479
Speaker 1: speaking of art.

605
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 3: She's an artist in this film. Wait now, we were

606
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 3: not going to talk about her. We're talking about her

607
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 3: artwork as not being for.

608
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 5: As much as I don't care for and you're not

609
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 5: supposed to care for Maxim's various belittling of his second

610
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 5: wife kind of feel him on his assessment of her

611
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 5: for drawing skills.

612
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: I just sort of bristle a little at her whole,

613
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 1: her meeting with the family, and that sort of moment

614
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: of you know, what do you do? Like, surely you

615
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: ride to hound, surely you sail, Surely you have some

616
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: sort of lady likes incredibly expensive and impractical hobby. I mean,

617
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: what have you been doing with your life?

618
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 3: But you're right side subtle or.

619
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: I just said I don't ride, dude. Another moment where

620
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: the film just makes us want something really specific, and

621
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 1: that is for her to say what did I just say?

622
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 5: Except she's such an uncertain character, she'd be more like,

623
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 5: what did I just say?

624
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: There were times that her hesitancy and self judgment really

625
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 1: graded on me. Does that go too far? Is that

626
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:34,239
Speaker 1: just me?

627
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 2: No?

628
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 5: I mean I had the same reaction. I had to

629
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 5: be mindful of, like not letting my reaction to her

630
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 5: characters just sort of wimpiness take away from what the

631
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 5: film was trying to achieve in their relationship dynamic. Because

632
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 5: I really didn't like her, Like I would not want

633
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 5: to spend a lot of time with the second Mississi

634
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 5: Winters now in twenty eighteen, but who.

635
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 4: What Yeah, but I think I don't know. I think

636
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 4: the frustration is baked into that. I think I think, yeah,

637
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,959
Speaker 4: nineteen forty audience would have been frustrated with her as

638
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 4: well too. There's you know, kind of doing the equivalent

639
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 4: of screaming get out, like we were talking about it.

640
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 3: But think about it if you think about it though,

641
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 3: And this is something again I think Hitchhock does very

642
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 3: well in sticking by this character. Is that she has

643
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 3: no choice at any point. It's like, it's not like

644
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 3: she has some fallback position. It's like she's climbed to

645
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 3: the top the highest rung of the social ladder, but

646
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 3: the ladder is gone.

647
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 4: The ladder has disappeared behind her.

648
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 3: And if she if she's off that rung, she's gonna fall,

649
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, There's no place for her

650
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 3: to go. This is she has to make this, make

651
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 3: this work. If it doesn't work, she's going to be

652
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 3: stuck in the position where it doesn't work. She is

653
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 3: just trapped in that house and in that situation. And

654
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,719
Speaker 3: I also think that dawns on her almost immediately doesn't it.

655
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 3: I mean, when she when she is confronted by such

656
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 3: an intimidating the intimidation of the house, the intimidation of

657
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,239
Speaker 3: the staff of missus danvers of things that that are

658
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 3: expected of her in the morning, where she has to

659
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 3: be by a certain you know, by a certain fire,

660
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 3: and has to be by a different fire in the

661
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 3: library later on the day. And I think all of

662
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 3: these things are so overwhelming to her to try to

663
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 3: figure out, but she has to do it.

664
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: We filled out your calendar agenda.

665
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 3: It involves a lot of fire, fire in the morning

666
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 3: in this room, and then then you go to the

667
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 3: library unless you want to freeze, then you need a

668
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 3: library in the morning.

669
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:25,959
Speaker 1: The construction of her introduction to the staff is just

670
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,719
Speaker 1: so good that the sudden rainstorm and the fact that

671
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 1: she comes in not dressed like for the formality of

672
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 1: that house and soaking wet and looking a bit like

673
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: a frightened, drowned rat, and there of course they're all

674
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: you know in there meeting the new lady of the house.

675
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 4: Best.

676
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 1: It's just such a terrific, terrific sequence of shots.

677
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 3: How about them going over their honeymoon footage too?

678
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: I found that a really interesting sequence because we really

679
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 1: don't get anything to indicate that they've ever had that

680
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: kind of happiness or even physical contact really, you know,

681
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 1: we get some formal dancing, but and like a little

682
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 1: bit of clutching, but like the moment where they're making

683
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: out in front of the car in the movies, it's

684
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,879
Speaker 1: almost like Hitchcock is deliberately setting this entirely up as

685
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: a flashback, removed from them because it makes it feel

686
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 1: like it didn't happen. It's like they're remembering what their

687
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 1: relationship should be instead of what it actually is. Because

688
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 1: that's the scene where he keeps calling her an idiot

689
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 1: and she keeps falling over him, saying, you know, we're happy,

690
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 1: aren't we We're happy? And it's it's like we have

691
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: two images, the film that we're watching and the film

692
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: that they're watching, and they portray entirely different relationships.

693
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:35,839
Speaker 4: So I want to talk about the central relationship, which

694
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 4: we haven't really got into in great detail, and I

695
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 4: as it's a simple question.

696
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 5: Is this a love story, it's a relationship story. There

697
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 5: we go probably the same thing I would say about

698
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 5: Phantom Threat, but we'll get into that.

699
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 3: So that's a love story though that I would say

700
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 3: is a love story, is this is a little less

701
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 3: less so I.

702
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 5: Would say, come back in two days and we'll be interesting.

703
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,879
Speaker 1: Okay, it's a story about need, it's a story about

704
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 1: mutual need, and they don't have the same needs. At first,

705
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 1: she thinks that they have love, and then it turns

706
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: out that they both have very different needs. And I

707
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: think that by the end kind of the whole informal

708
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,760
Speaker 1: trial situation puts them in a situation where they suddenly

709
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 1: do both have the same needs and enables them to bond.

710
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 1: But to begin with, what he seems to need is

711
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,240
Speaker 1: someone that is as different from Rebecca as possible, Somebody

712
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 1: that is not in control, that will not overbear or

713
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 1: overwhelm him, that will not give orders, that will not

714
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 1: challenge him in any way. And like what she needs

715
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 1: is somebody to support her and care for her. And

716
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 1: they think they've both found it, and then Rebecca.

717
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 5: Interfears and another kind of contrast between their relationship and

718
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 5: his relationship with Rebecca, and this is obviously because of

719
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 5: the time, not so explicit, but just the lack of

720
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 5: sexuality in their relationship, like with the exception of the

721
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 5: honeymoon foot footage to which you note it feels like

722
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 5: sort of removed from reality, like there is no passion

723
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 5: between these two characters, and we learn that Rebecca was,

724
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 5: among other things, like a creature of passion, you know,

725
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 5: and who actively pursued those passions bodily and otherwise, you know.

726
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 5: And I think the sterile nature of their relationship is

727
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 5: just reflection of that of that contrast with Rebecca.

728
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,879
Speaker 1: Do you guys have theories about what exactly Rebecca told him.

729
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 1: I assume that the film leaves that as blank as possible,

730
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:29,319
Speaker 1: so we'll fill it in with the worst things we

731
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,319
Speaker 1: can imagine. But it always comes a little bit as

732
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 1: a surprise to me that she has this man who

733
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 1: was her lover and maybe also her cousin. I'm still

734
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 1: not entirely one hundred percent on the truth of that statement.

735
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 4: No, they're cousins. I believe it will be a tough

736
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 4: flight to pull off. I think in that society.

737
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, her entire apparent history of debauchery would

738
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: be a tough light to put off to the society.

739
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 1: I don't know. I just it always throws me a

740
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: little bit both that she could have gotten away with

741
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 1: living such a double life and whatever it is she

742
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 1: tells him on that clip side that cannot ever be

743
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 1: spoken of again.

744
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 4: I think I want to leave that Daniel is a

745
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 4: mystery and probably conclude this part of our discussion. Maybe

746
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 4: we'll circle back to it in part two. Right now,

747
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:11,399
Speaker 4: we're to take a short break and we'll be right

748
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 4: back to get into some feedback on recent episodes. Now

749
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 4: it's time for feedback, where our listeners weigh in with

750
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 4: their responses to recent episodes and anything else in the

751
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 4: world of film. Our pairing of talented mister Ripley and

752
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 4: Call Me by Your Name prompt it some thoughtful responses,

753
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 4: one of them holiday themed. Genevieve, would you like to

754
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:37,959
Speaker 4: read our first letter?

755
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 5: Absolutely, Rachel writes, you mentioned that Call Me by Your

756
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 5: Name ends with what I believe is the seventh night

757
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:45,760
Speaker 5: of Hanukhah, and how coincidental it is that it's currently

758
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 5: the holiday season. This letter was sent to the month

759
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 5: or so we go. Rachel continues, I would argue that

760
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,320
Speaker 5: this entire film is a modern take on the Honkah story.

761
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 5: Hannakah is about the Jews fighting for autonomy against the

762
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 5: conquering forces of Hellenism. Call Me By Your Name is

763
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 5: a film in Trench and Greco Roman architecture and art

764
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 5: taking place in northern Italy, devoid of any Jews besides

765
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 5: the Pearlmans and Oliver. Hanika is a holiday primarily about

766
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 5: Jewish identification and distinction in the face of adversity. Unlike

767
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 5: Elio and his family, Oliver wears the Star of David,

768
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 5: a symbol embraced by nineteenth and twentieth century Jewish youth

769
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 5: groups who were heavily influenced by the story of the Maccabees. However,

770
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 5: instead of the Jewish fight against Hellenism, this movie is

771
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 5: about the merging of these two values. The origins of

772
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 5: the name Ilio come from the Greek sun god Helios,

773
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 5: and Oliver from the word Olive, which is the real

774
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 5: hero of the Honkah story for providing the oil for

775
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 5: the Minora and is celebrated in a favorite snack of Ilios.

776
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 5: The Latka Gaudininho forces us to gaze at the beauty

777
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 5: and masculinity of their Jewish bodies, making them look more

778
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,720
Speaker 5: similar to hermes of Praxelites than Shylock the jew. Still,

779
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 5: they wear their stars against their bare chests, an assertion

780
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 5: of their identity and resistance of heteronormativity, and the time

781
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 5: is tracked by the tolling of the church bells. Maccabean

782
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 5: period did not last long, and Ilio and Oliver's summer

783
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 5: comes to an end. But just as Hanakah has become

784
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 5: part of the Jewish tradition, Ilio allows this relationship with

785
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 5: Oliver to become part of him, using the fire to

786
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 5: ignite his own memory of the past. Let's just see,

787
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 5: this is a great replacement for Eight Crazy Nights. It's

788
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 5: a ps if you do read this on the air,

789
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 5: and I haven't taken too much time, shout out to

790
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 5: my film buddy, fellow fan and fellow you him.

791
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:16,439
Speaker 3: Wow, guys, honk movie.

792
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 4: I love it.

793
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 3: That's all I can say. I think that's a that's

794
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 3: a fantastic it's a good argument for it argument. I mean,

795
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 3: God knows we need a decent Honeken movie.

796
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:26,800
Speaker 4: Maybe this is it. Why don't we redo the episode

797
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 4: with this one? And eight Crazy Nights?

798
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:30,240
Speaker 1: Oh my god?

799
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 4: Is it enough of a classic yet? Has it been

800
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 4: around long enough? I know the back is that?

801
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think or maybe just the Honica song,

802
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,360
Speaker 3: we would do it. It would be one one whole episode.

803
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 5: A that cinematic masterpiece.

804
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 3: I'm just saying there's probably more to talk about there

805
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,760
Speaker 3: than there is the about the film Eight Crazy Nights.

806
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 3: But I love this theory. I mean it's it stretches,

807
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 3: much like the oil over. It seems like it can

808
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,319
Speaker 3: only really burn so much and then it just goes

809
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 3: for the full uh eight nights. So I was impressed

810
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 3: by that.

811
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 1: You guys know that I'm not the hugest fan of

812
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: Call Me by Your Name, and I'm not going to

813
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: get into it, but people have been talking to me

814
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: about it online and one of the things that keeps

815
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 1: coming up is, well, if you look at this elaborate symbolism,

816
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 1: this scene makes more sense. If you look at the

817
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: literary construction of this sequence, this makes more sense. And

818
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 1: for me, a lot of that just doesn't come across

819
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 1: in the movie. But it makes me really want to

820
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,839
Speaker 1: read the book because I really get the impression that

821
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 1: there is a lot of deep, complex thought through symbolism

822
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 1: going on in this story, and I wonder if it

823
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:35,800
Speaker 1: manifests more clearly in the novel.

824
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,479
Speaker 4: Call Me by Your Name Also project spots from Kimberly Jones,

825
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:40,360
Speaker 4: and we're using her full name, since she's editor in

826
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 4: chief and film critic for the Austin Chronicle, and you

827
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 4: can go read to her review of the film when

828
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 4: you're done with this podcast willing to do it on

829
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 4: the Facebook page Scott which I'd read an extra from

830
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 4: Kimberly's long letter, which we'll post in full on the

831
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 4: Facebook page as well.

832
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 3: Certainly, Kimberly writes I loved y'all's that she's from Austin,

833
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 3: so she says, y'all, I love y'all's discussion of the film. However,

834
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 3: I do quibble with your interpretation of Michael stoole Bar's

835
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 3: gorgeous monologue at the end of the film, specifically the

836
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 3: moment when Eleo asks his father do you think mom knows?

837
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:08,840
Speaker 3: This moment is everything you all seemed to think it

838
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 3: was about Elo asking as if his mom, Anelia, knew

839
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 3: about his relationship with Oliver. I disagree. ELO's question comes

840
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 3: after his father has revealed in careful coded language that

841
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,879
Speaker 3: he too had a significant moment in time with another man,

842
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 3: a relationship he cherished, but it didn't turn physical, it

843
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 3: seems to his regret, and I think that is what

844
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 3: this exchange is about. The scene at large is a

845
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 3: beautiful evocation of a father comforting slash welcoming his teenage

846
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 3: son into the exquisite pain and joy of first love

847
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 3: and sex. But this tiny question and answer elevates the

848
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 3: scene even more in the way it tilts Elo away

849
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 3: from his own preoccupations and more toward an adult understanding

850
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 3: of his father, his choices and regrets. In their seeming

851
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 3: agreement that Mom is in the dark about them, what's

852
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 3: even more interesting is that, well, I think they're wrong.

853
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 3: We have enough evidence of her sophistication and sensitivity to

854
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 3: assume a Elia knows what's what, and she's not the

855
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 3: only one. The letter goes on to offer a more

856
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:09,320
Speaker 3: detailed defense of the movie's female character. The mom included,

857
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 3: So you want to read that on Facebook, but let's

858
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 3: deal with what's here. What do you think of this

859
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,280
Speaker 3: interpretation of that particular exchange.

860
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 5: I'm really glad Kimberly wrote in with this, because I

861
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,720
Speaker 5: did have that interpretation of the scene when I watched

862
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 5: the film. But I think in our discussion we kind

863
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 5: of got sidetracked in the discussion of whether Anelia knows

864
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 5: about Oliver and Elio, So we kind of like pivoted

865
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 5: to that before exploring what I think. It's probably an

866
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,399
Speaker 5: intentional double meaning here, Like, I think you can read

867
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 5: it either way in terms of whether they're talking about

868
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 5: his father's relationship or his relationship with Oliver, and I

869
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,360
Speaker 5: think that's part of what makes a scene so cool

870
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 5: and resonant.

871
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 4: And I write the way Kimberly does. I'm on your side, Kumberly.

872
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 5: I specifically remember like discussing the scene in that context

873
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 5: with the people I watched the film. With the reading

874
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 5: of Ilio being concerned that his mom knows about him

875
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 5: and Oliver is also like a possible reading, just in

876
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 5: terms of sort of the teen age and security that

877
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 5: we get from that character in that discussion. But I

878
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,280
Speaker 5: like that it can be applied to either either man.

879
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:19,879
Speaker 4: Well concerned about whether.

880
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 3: I mean, this is not the most permissive time, and

881
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 3: so I think the more people who know about this

882
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 3: could concern him certainly, But I don't know. My interpretation

883
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,799
Speaker 3: was not Kimberly's, but now that she's articulated it, it's

884
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 3: given me. I think I just missed something important, so

885
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 3: I'm kind of glad it's here.

886
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 5: I think that scene is just like so much more

887
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 5: beautiful than it already is. If you are also seeing

888
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:48,319
Speaker 5: his father's like pain and regret in nostalgia coming through

889
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 5: in addition to sort of fatherly guidance and advice, like

890
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 5: you see what is informing that guidance and advice.

891
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 3: And yeah, but maybe I think that got me was

892
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 3: I thought that he was speaking to a pretty universal

893
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 3: type of experience about early love and how to process

894
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 3: that and how to hold on to a certain feeling

895
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 3: and not let it go or fade in any way.

896
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 3: It never occurred to me at that time. Obviously, Kimberly

897
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 3: is articulate, and now that he was talking about himself

898
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 3: and revealing something personal about himself at that moment.

899
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 1: Well, that's fascinating. I read it the exact opposite way.

900
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 1: I very much read it as him sharing a moment

901
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 1: with his son because it's something that possibly only the

902
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 1: two of them can understand that he was reaching out about.

903
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:38,160
Speaker 1: You know, I've experienced what you're experiencing, and I experienced

904
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 1: it in a different way because it didn't turn physical.

905
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 1: And that he's revealing that he may be gay himself

906
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: or bisexual in a time where both of those things

907
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:50,840
Speaker 1: were forbidden. I always read that as he had a

908
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,360
Speaker 1: young love and he went on and made the decision

909
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 1: to marry a woman and have children, which is very,

910
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,399
Speaker 1: very very common for gay men at the time. And

911
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,319
Speaker 1: to me, he's he's revealing that he also has these

912
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 1: feelings but possibly couldn't act on them. And then Ilio says,

913
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 1: does mom know? And it always it hurt me just

914
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 1: a little that the responses no, I don't think she does.

915
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 1: I feel like it could have been We've never discussed it,

916
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 1: and that would have opened up both the exact same

917
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 1: interpretation as far as their relationship was concerned, but it

918
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 1: would have shut the mom out a little bit less

919
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 1: and made her seem a little less like.

920
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 5: A dupe, well in terms of the mom being a

921
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 5: dupe Kimberly. The rest of Kimberly's letter does address the

922
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,360
Speaker 5: film's handling of female characters, so you should go and

923
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 5: read it on Facebook.

924
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 4: Thank you really, and with that we'll wrap up our

925
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 4: feedback for this episode. We always appreciate when our listeners

926
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 4: share their thoughts and their recommendations. If we just you

927
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 4: can leave a short voicemail at seven seven three two

928
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 4: three four nine seven three zero or email us at

929
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 4: comments at next Picture Show dot Net. We may feature

930
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 4: your response on a future episode or post it on

931
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 4: Facebook for discussion. And that does it for this episode

932
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:05,879
Speaker 4: of the Next Picture Show. In part two, we'll bring

933
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,720
Speaker 4: in Phantom Thread and talk over how both these films

934
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 4: deal with delicate relationships and meticulously orchestrated English homes. Look

935
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 4: for that later this week, or, better yet, subscribe to

936
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 4: the Next Picture Show on Apple Podcasts or your podcast

937
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:20,839
Speaker 4: sure of choice. Find us at Next Picture Show dot net,

938
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,680
Speaker 4: follow us at Facebook dot com, slash the Next Picture Show,

939
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 4: and follow us on Twitter at at Next Picture Pod

940
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 4: so we always know when a new episode drops. Until then,

941
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 4: we'll have everything in readiness for you. We'll see you

942
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:32,479
Speaker 4: next time.