1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Ever heard the phrase master 2 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:21,439 Speaker 1: of disguise, it's even a movie? Well, that character could 3 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: take a page out of the book of Margaret Rudin 4 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: aka The Black Widow. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I 5 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being 6 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: with us here at Fox Nation and series XIM one eleven. 7 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: How did the love birds meet? Take a listen to 8 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: our old friend, Bill Curtis, American Justice. Margaret Craffy met 9 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: Run at church in the summer of nineteen eighty seven. 10 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: Both were natives of Illinois and grew up in close 11 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 1: knit families. Both had been married four times. Margaret had 12 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: two children in their twenties. The charming Redhead made an 13 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: immediate impression on Ron and his family. She was very refined, tailored, attractive, 14 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: but thinking back, she was very quiet. Also, she did 15 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: not say a lot, but I thought she was a 16 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 1: very good match with Ron. Each of Margaret's husbands had 17 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: been wealthier than the last, especially lucrative. Clearly, when she 18 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: came out to Las Vegas, she was looking for more 19 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: than just companionship. She wanted that financial security, and that's 20 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,639 Speaker 1: probably in large part why she married Ruden. They married 21 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: in September nineteen eighty seven, and Margaret moved into the 22 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: house at fifty thirteen Alpine Way, where Ron had lived 23 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: with all his previous wives. Boy, that's telling me a 24 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: lot right there. So, you know, going into a marriage 25 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: when you've already had each of you four previous spouses, 26 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: that's what you call baggage. With me an all star 27 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: panel to break you down and put it back together again. 28 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: First of all, Laura Uretsien La California, high profile defense 29 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: attorney Karen Starton New York psychologists. You can find her 30 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: at Karen Starton dot com. Karen Smith joining me out 31 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 1: of LA. Also forensics expert and hosts of a brand 32 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: new podcast, Shattered Souls. The medical examiner for the State 33 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: of Georgia, doctor Tim Gallagher. But first to Crime online 34 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 1: dot Com investigative reporter Sierra Gillespie, Sierra, thank you for 35 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: being with us. So each one of them had been 36 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: married four times in the past. Yeah, and MC, this 37 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: is kind of an interesting situation for them. They were 38 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: both kind of older. She was actually forty nine years 39 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: old when she married Ron Ruden, and again it was 40 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 1: their fifth marriage. Sierra Gillespie, I hate to interrupt you, 41 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: but just how old are you? I'm twenty six? Oh okay, Well, Sierra, 42 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:21,399 Speaker 1: for many people, forty nine is not quote older. But 43 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: that said, go ahead. Each of them have been married 44 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: four times in the past. Well, yes, I guess it's 45 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: kind of older for your fifth marriage. I don't know. 46 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: I guess to me being married five Well, hold on, 47 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: wait a minute, wait minute. You know what's so funny? 48 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: Karen start? Let's follow up on what Sierra Gillespie Crime 49 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: online dot Com just said. Karen, start with me New 50 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: York psychologists. You know, when Elizabeth Taylor does it, it's 51 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: just fine. She was married, what having seven times? I 52 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: think when Martha Ray did it, it was fine. But 53 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: when the rest of us do it, there's a stigma 54 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: a chat to multiple marriages. There really is. Well why 55 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: is that? I mean, I hope I never get divorced, 56 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: and I hope I never get remarried. I love my husband, 57 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: but once it is enough for me, I'm fine with it. 58 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: Glad I did it. But why what is it? Compulsive? Bride? 59 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:22,679 Speaker 1: I mean, why do you just keep getting married over 60 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: and over and over? What's gonna be different with the 61 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 1: next guy? That I mean? Help me, Karen, Well, that's somebody, Nancy. 62 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: It's a good point that has attachment issues without a doubt. 63 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: So it's it's a person who can't either has been 64 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: in a relationship, they committed to a relationship, or believes 65 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: that they just haven't found the right person yet. And 66 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 1: I think even more it's a stigma. But it's also 67 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: for a lot of people a joke. They think they 68 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: find it humorous that someone has married so many times 69 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 1: and keeps going because you think to yourself, and I 70 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: think this is absolutely true. If they didn't get it 71 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 1: right the first few times, why did they keep trying? 72 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 1: What makes them believe that? Now? Why a man at 73 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: Karen start when you said, if they didn't get it 74 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: right the first two times, why I keep trying? Why 75 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:19,279 Speaker 1: is that because you've been married twice? That I know 76 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: absolutely because a lot of people would have said, if 77 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: you didn't get it right the first time, I keep trying. 78 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: But she snuck the two in there. I caught that you. 79 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 1: But yeah, okay, I always say God bless my husband 80 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: David because he married me and my mother basically who 81 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: lives with us now he's a saint. But you know, 82 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: Laura uretsy in with me La, high profile lawyer. Laura, 83 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 1: have you ever done divorce work? No, I haven't done 84 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: any divorce story. Yeah, I'm with you. I would rather 85 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 1: try a serial killer than stick my hand in between 86 00:05:56,120 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 1: two people divorcing. It's like a dog fight. Agreed. Agree, 87 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: and as it's very highly emotional from what I am. Yes, 88 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 1: last thing I want exactly. One of my best friends, 89 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 1: who I've mentioned before, is a as I call her 90 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: right to her face, a dope lawyer. She represents drug lords, 91 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: street pushers, addicts, you know, criminal intend to distribute the works. 92 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: If it's dope, she defends it. She gave up handling 93 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: anybody's divorce, even for friends, because at one point she 94 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 1: handled divorce between rich people and I'm telling you, they 95 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: don't like sharing money. She thought she's gonna get shot. 96 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: She was representing the wife in that case. I'm with you, Laura. 97 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: Laura yaretsy enjoined me out of LA and I've had 98 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: to watch those Yes, I mean I've had to watch 99 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: divorce cases as part of, you know, going parallel to 100 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: my criminal cases, and my goodness, they could go on forever, 101 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: especially if it's between people who are very affluent, and 102 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: the fights just never ends, and they'll fight on every 103 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: little thing. Yeah, and the divorce that she was so 104 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: worried about, they were rich and they were arguing over 105 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: the pots and the pans, literally fighting, running up, jacking 106 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: up lawyer's fees over pots and pans. Anyway, that's an 107 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: insight into a divorce, especially with rich people. And now 108 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: you've got two people entering a marriage, and each one 109 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: of them have had four previous and Sierra Gillespie, Jackie 110 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: here in the studio, wants me to correct a fact 111 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: about it. Liz was not married to eight different men. 112 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: She was married to seven different men. She married Richard 113 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: Burton twice. Is that okay? Yes, So let's clear up 114 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: Liz Taylor's reputation right here and right now. Now back 115 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: to the as I call her, the Master of disguise, 116 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: Margaret Ruden, you're gonna find out. Why, take a listen 117 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: to how this whole thing got started. Here's our friend, 118 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: Bill Curtis. I love Bill Curtis. Go ahead. Ron and 119 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 1: Margaret's marriage seemed to start well, but just a year 120 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 1: after their wedding, Ron Ruden began an affair with another woman. 121 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: Margaret was enraged in nineteen eighty eight, she overheard her 122 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: husband talking to his mistress on the phone. Police would 123 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: later find an entry in Margaret's diary about the violent 124 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: argument that followed. Margaret's version of that was that she 125 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: pulled a gun and that Ron grabbed it, and then 126 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: the gun went off. She didn't say who pulled the trigger. 127 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: She didn't say if it was aimed at Ron. She 128 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: didn't say if it went off when Ron tried to 129 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: grab it from her. She was very vague about that. 130 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: After a brief separation, the two reconciled, but marital tensions continued, 131 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: especially about money. Ruden was an extremely private man, showing 132 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: few details of his business with anyone, including his wife. 133 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: Margaret found her husband's pension for secrecy maddening and was 134 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 1: determined to keep taps on his business. So here it goes, 135 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: with wealthy individuals keeping their money a secret, sitting on 136 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 1: all their goal like a dragon does in its cave. 137 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: That kind of secrecy in a relationship does not bode well. 138 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: We're talking about a woman named Margaret Ruden, as I 139 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: call her Black Widow or master of Disguise, and you're 140 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: about to find out why she marries Robert Ruden, who 141 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: was very, very wealthy in LA. You know, to Sierra 142 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: Gillespie Crime Online dot Com investigator reporter, do we know 143 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: where Ruden got all his money? Yeah? So Ronald Ruden 144 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 1: actually was a millionaire and he made most of his 145 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: money through real estate, so in the Las Vegas area. 146 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 1: That's basically where he came to become this millionaire. And 147 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 1: as we heard earlier, he lived with all of his wives, 148 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: including Mark Rootin in the Las Vegas area and they 149 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: were pretty well to do. I mean they had a 150 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: very nice house. You worked in real estate, so things 151 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 1: looked well for them, even though they had each been 152 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: married four times. They met at the First Church of 153 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: Religious Science in Las Vegas, Jackie, He'll look that up. 154 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 1: What is the first Church of Religious Science? You know? 155 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: To you Karen Smith joined me out of LA. It 156 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: almost sounds like a Christian scientist, the ones that believe 157 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: kind of mind over matter. They don't like doctors or medicine. 158 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: They think you can heal yourself, but they are in 159 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 1: fact Christians. What is that? It's the first Church of 160 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: Religious Science in Las Vegas. So they marry fortuitously on 161 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: September eleven, many years before the actual September eleven, and 162 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: their marriage seems to be going along just fine until 163 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 1: he becomes secretive about the money crime stories with Nancy Grace. 164 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: Their marriage seems to be going along just fine until 165 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: he becomes secretive about the money. So, Karen, start one 166 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: secretive about money. If you're secretive about that, that bode's ill. 167 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: I remember when I first start, when I first knew David, 168 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,559 Speaker 1: I didn't have two pennies to rub together as a prosecutor, 169 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: and was working at some points three night jobs to 170 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: make a car and a house payment. So there were 171 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:51,959 Speaker 1: not a lot of money secrets except all my pile 172 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: of bills I had to pay. But then to add 173 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: to that blatantly, you know, this is her side talking 174 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 1: to you a mistress right there. I mean, for Pete's sake, 175 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,719 Speaker 1: I'm in the room. What does that mean? I can 176 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: hear you talking to your girlfriend. Are you surprised she 177 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: pulled a gun on him? Well, I don't know. That 178 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: sounds pretty extreme, but I could understand that she would 179 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 1: be completely upset, and I'm sure that people would wonder 180 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: at that point, not that she pulled it. Why would 181 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: you pull a gun? Instead of just saying I've had it, 182 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: and I'm going to move on to my fifth marriage 183 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: or another. That would have been the sixth man deciding 184 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: that she's taken extreme. Everything comes to a screeching halt. 185 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: Take a listen to Love or Money's Peter Thomas. On 186 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,959 Speaker 1: a Monday morning, Bron Ruden didn't show up for work 187 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,559 Speaker 1: as he had always done in the twenty years he 188 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: was in business. As soon as he wasn't there to 189 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 1: open the business a half hour before the office opened, 190 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: his employees knew something was wrong, and the fact that 191 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: he lived thirty feet from the office also told him 192 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: that there was something wrong. Ron was not one to disappear, surely, 193 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,559 Speaker 1: and he was certainly not one to leave his business unattended. 194 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: Ron's fifth wife, Margaret, called police to report him missing. 195 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: She said he didn't come home the night before. After 196 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,599 Speaker 1: that night, Ron Ruden just disappeared off the face of 197 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: the earth. There were no ATM transactions, no account activity. 198 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: He wasn't seen anywhere, his cell phone wasn't being used. 199 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: So he goes missing. Margaret is the one that calls police. 200 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 1: But from what we know, he could have gone anywhere 201 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: between all of his money, all of his business dealings, 202 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: all of his affairs. Take a listen to Vegas Katie 203 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: n v Child thirteen Ja Partel's. Ron always kept Margaret 204 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 1: at arm's length and never revealed really how much money 205 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: he had, a secret that Margaret stopped it nothing to learn. 206 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 1: Margaret was even suspected of wire tapping Ron's phones at 207 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: his office so that she could hear who he was 208 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: speaking with, and ultimately she found out that he was 209 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: having an affair with someone, and she heard it on 210 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: the wiretap that she illegally created. Despite learning about the affair, 211 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: Margaret wanted more, so, with the help of Ron's money, 212 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: she opened up an antique store right next door to 213 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: Ron's real estate office, the stones throw away from their home, 214 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: and it was a curious business venture from anyone on 215 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: the outside looking in. Ron had furnished her. He told 216 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: me over one hundred thousand dollars to open that antique store. 217 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: She didn't learn more about antiques than how you do. 218 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: Margaret wanted Ron's money, and she knew from her previous 219 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: four marriages that if she gets a divorce, she's not 220 00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: gonna get very much that money. So she stayed with 221 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: him for a while, but it just got worse and worse. 222 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: You know, you're hearing about a wire tap that Margaret 223 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: had put on her husband's phones because she thought he 224 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: was cheating. In yes, she found out he was cheating. 225 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: All right, when you're marriage is at that point to you, Karen, 226 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: start when you're having to wire tap your husband. I mean, 227 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: one time I wanted to read my husband's emails. My 228 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: eyes started bleeding. They were so boring. I've never done 229 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: that again. Ever. Everyone was another horribly intricate business dealing. 230 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: Oh it was terrible. I've never done it again. Yes, 231 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: God bless him. But tween year to a point where 232 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: you've got a tap air spouse's phone, you might as 233 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: well just go ahead and get a divorce or go 234 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: to therapy one or the other, because to me that 235 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: it's irretrievably broken when either you distrust them so much 236 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: or they've given you cause to distrust them so much. 237 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: There had to be a reason for that. She was right, 238 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: you know. That leads me to another question at the 239 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: point where you're thinking, wow, is he having an affair? 240 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: If you're thinking that something has led you to think 241 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: that either an unexplained disappearance or just a bizarre set 242 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: of behavior or something out of the you know what 243 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: always gives it away when the husband starts working out 244 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: and going on diets or getting a sports car out 245 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: of the blue. I'm no shrink, that's you, Karen, start 246 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: but what does that mean? Well, that means he's taking 247 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: a new interest in how he looks. And unless something 248 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 1: drastic has happened, oh will in his life, you have 249 00:16:55,640 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 1: to start thinking why is he suddenly so interest student 250 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 1: working out or dressing well? But there are other clues 251 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 1: and things to look for a Nancy. I mean, if 252 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: all of a sudden you're with somebody who never gets 253 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: your gifts and he starts to get your gifts while 254 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: he's working out. You have to trust your instincts, which 255 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 1: is what I say to my patients. You have to 256 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,120 Speaker 1: pay attention. If you have an instinct that tells you 257 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: that something is going on, something is probably going on, 258 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 1: unless you're terribly paranoid and you always think something that's 259 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: going on. Okay, Jack, he's gotten the answer to the church. 260 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: It's not Christian scientists. It looks like it's just non denominational, 261 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 1: you know. To you Karen Smith joining me la California 262 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 1: forensics expert, host of Shattered Sould podcast, Karen, how difficult, Well, 263 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: anybody's ever been to a radio shack or a spy 264 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: store or even look on Amazon. How hard is it 265 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: to tap somebody's phone or you know, record their conversations. 266 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,679 Speaker 1: It's not it's not at all. I mean we're talking, 267 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: you know, twenty years ago at least at this point, 268 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: so you know you can go and buy go to 269 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: a spy shop and buy a rudimentary phone tap you 270 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: just I think the hardest part would be getting access 271 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,919 Speaker 1: to that phone to do it, rather than actually putting 272 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:32,679 Speaker 1: the device on the phone to record crime stories with 273 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about Margaret Ruden, also known 274 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: as the Master of Disguise or the Black Widow to 275 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: doctor Tim Gallagher, a medical examiner, State of Florida. So 276 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: often people go missing, we later find out their dad, 277 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:58,160 Speaker 1: and their bodies are never found. Sometimes they're found twenty 278 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: thirty years later. It's not that hard to dispose of 279 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: a body if you put your mind to a Dodtor Gallagher, 280 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 1: what's the most bizarre hidden body case you've ever worked? With, 281 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: the fact this guy goes missing and they can't find 282 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: them at first? How common is that also in your 283 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 1: pride is Dodtor gallagh or is the medical Examiner for Florida. 284 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: That people go to the length of hiding the body. Well, 285 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 1: we've had many occasions of those. You know, We've found 286 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,159 Speaker 1: bodies in fifty five gallon drums of acid. You know 287 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 1: that we're buried on people's property. We've found bodies incased 288 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 1: in concrete buried on people's property as well. You know. Sometimes, 289 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: you know, we find bodies that are missing, that are 290 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: accidentally missing. For instance, we have a lot of canals 291 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: here that people drive off the road into a canal 292 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 1: and their bodies are underwater for years and years before 293 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: they're recovered, you know. So we've had a lot of 294 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: interesting cases. We've had people who showed up in the 295 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: suitcases that were in the ever just whatever you can 296 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 1: think of and beyond, you know, is what we have 297 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: here in Florida. And when Ron does not show up 298 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: for work, his employees immediately know something's horribly wrong. Laura 299 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: Eauretsi joining me from LA. There is a type of 300 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: evidence called routine evidence, and that doesn't mean it's just 301 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: like huh huh, drum. It's not boring routine evidence. It's 302 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: evidence of your routine, and so many times, Laura uretts In, 303 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 1: I don't know if this has happened in your defense 304 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: practice as it has in my prosecution practice, that many 305 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 1: people are like clockwork. Like if I came to this 306 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 1: studio and Jackie was not sitting right there and Brett 307 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 1: was not sitting right there, I would call nine one one, 308 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 1: because they've never ever missed a day work ever. And 309 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:57,479 Speaker 1: you know there's certain habits, routines people go through by choice, 310 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: and if they break that routine, callings co workers, family, no, 311 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: something is wrong, Laura, and that can really start your 312 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 1: criminal timeline right there right which is exactly what happened here. 313 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 1: I mean it was his habit, obviously, we call it 314 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 1: the habit type of evidence to be his office in 315 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 1: the mornings, and hence the reason his employees were the 316 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: first to notice that something was not right, that something 317 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: had happened and reported it, from what I understand, to 318 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 1: the authorities. And it's only after that that his wife, 319 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 1: Margaret reports him missing. That's a very important distinction because 320 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: earlier I said she called and reported missing. But you're 321 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:52,919 Speaker 1: absolutely right, yet again, Laura Juretsien, that the coworkers first 322 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: noticed he was out of place. Guys talk about a premonition. 323 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friend Joe Bartels it kt envy. 324 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: He was literally sleeping with another woman and she found 325 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: out about it. Then, just weeks before Christmas, Ron plays 326 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 1: a phone call with his good friend Johns. I found 327 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: a piece of paper in the house. Margaret's diagramming out 328 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: how she's going to split up all my money, the 329 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: estate with her relatives and friends. And he says, I'm 330 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 1: really getting nervous. I told him you got to watch 331 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,880 Speaker 1: your bag. That morning came as Ron changed his will. 332 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: I'm moved that many saw as a fingerpoint right at 333 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: his wife if something happened to him. It got to 334 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: the point that he started worrying that his life could 335 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: be in danger, that maybe Margaret might elevate us to 336 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,120 Speaker 1: the next step. So he changed his will. He put 337 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 1: a writer in his will that said, if I'd die 338 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: by violent means car crash, accident, shooting, investigate the person 339 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: who stands to inherit money. Wow. So he comes home 340 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: and he finds a piece of paper where Margaret Ruden 341 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 1: is detailing how she's going to split up his estate 342 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 1: after his death with her friends and family. I would 343 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: have left right then. I wouldn't have even bothered to pack, 344 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: just go goodbye Lee. But he didn't, and then he 345 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: doesn't report to work one day. You know, doctor Tim Gallagher, 346 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 1: medical examers, State of Florida, how many times have you 347 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: investigated a case? Of course, you're performing the autopsy, but 348 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 1: medical examiners look at extrinsic evidence as well as just 349 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: the body. Margaret Rudin basically makes a flow chart, a 350 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: diagram of how she's got split up her husband's money 351 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: after his death, and he finds it. How often have 352 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 1: you seen that, doctor Gallagher? Oh, I'm currently working on 353 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: a case now where there's this notebook after notebook of 354 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: nefarious notes that someone had taken against another person. You know. 355 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 1: So these tend to be a pretty common especially in 356 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:56,919 Speaker 1: the probably forty to sixty year old age range. And 357 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 1: I'm not going to say if that's a young person 358 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: or otherwise, but we tend to we tend to look 359 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: at that, and when we come across cases in that 360 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: age range, that's one of the things that we try 361 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 1: to keep an eye eye out for. On the scene, 362 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: you know, I had, of course it was rich people 363 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,680 Speaker 1: again and the husband, why type the why I found 364 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: out she had a boyfriend, And I don't really blame 365 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: her because he's horrible the husband. But then he took 366 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: all of his suits to the dry cleaners before he 367 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: burned the house down with her in it. He took 368 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: all of his family photos of his family and stored 369 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: them at his home. He even called the weather chan 370 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: the weather station to find out if it's going to 371 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: rain the day of the fire. He said, so, I 372 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 1: mean leaving a trill a mile wide, and we just 373 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: saw to Lauriarettsian in the Jennifer Dulos, the Connecticut mother 374 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: of five who goes missing. Her body has not been found, 375 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: where her husband photos. Dulos and his girlfriend had written 376 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: an alibi script basically about it was a lot of 377 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: it made up where they we're at the time Jennifer 378 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: goes missing and you're out in California. Laura, I hope 379 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 1: you didn't work on the Robert Blake case, because there 380 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: was a to do list in that go get lie 381 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 1: go get a tar get my guns. Of course they 382 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: came up with excuses about this to do list, But 383 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 1: have you ever seen that where they actually the perchs 384 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 1: actually leave written evidence of their crime, like here dividing 385 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,399 Speaker 1: up his money before he's even been murdered. I mean, 386 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: who says criminal mind is always the brightest. People do 387 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 1: all sorts of things. Sometimes they're planning, sometimes they're not 388 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: planning it in the beginning, and they leave notes of 389 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 1: the hatred. I mean, we've seen it all. And does 390 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: that surprise me? Not at all? Again? People again, who 391 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 1: says that the criminal line is really the brightest. People 392 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: get caught because they do stupid things, because they make mistakes, 393 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 1: and they leave a trail behind, and you've got situations 394 00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: like this that we have in this case. But the 395 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: interest part in this case is though not just then, No, 396 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 1: as far as Margaret's concerned, one of the things that 397 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,399 Speaker 1: really stands out for me is, you know, this is 398 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,719 Speaker 1: someone who when things go wrong in a marriage, she 399 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 1: gets a divorce. So I could see a defense lawyer 400 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 1: arguing that, you know what she would what she would 401 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: have done, is what she's done before previously, like what 402 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,920 Speaker 1: we argued her habits and hers was to divorce these husbands. 403 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: And one argument I could have raised is the defense 404 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: attorney is the natural, the habitual thing, the routine thing 405 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 1: that this woman would have done was to divorce this husband. 406 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: And even this wire tap thing that to me shows 407 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 1: more not someone who's planning to kill her husband, but 408 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: someone who's trying to find find out what's the financial status? 409 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: How much money does he have? Where is where his assets? 410 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,199 Speaker 1: Where is he hiding these assets for divorce purposes? And 411 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: who is he sleeping with? That too? Yeah, and who's 412 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,199 Speaker 1: the girlfriend? I'd like to know that first and foremost, 413 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: so to you. Sierra Gillespie Crime online dot Com investigative 414 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: reporter goes without saying, Robert Rudin is dead? How did 415 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 1: they find his body? Where was he? So? Nancy? He 416 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: went missing on December eighteenth, nineteen ninety four, and earlier 417 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: you had talked about how it could be like twenty years, 418 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,160 Speaker 1: thirty years until they found a body, But in this case, 419 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: it really wasn't that long. They didn't find it until 420 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,120 Speaker 1: about a month later, in January of nineteen ninety five. 421 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 1: He was found near Lake Mohabby. So his remains were found, 422 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: I guess I should say he had been shot multiple times. 423 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 1: He'd also been decapitated, but he was burned, so they 424 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: literally found charred remains of his WHOA, okay, I almost finished. 425 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 1: I hadn't asked you time stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, 426 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: we're talking about a black widow, Margaret Rudin, also known 427 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,640 Speaker 1: as the Master of Disguise. Take a listen to our 428 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: friend Peter Thomas on for Love or Money. A week later, 429 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,199 Speaker 1: police found Ron's car in the parking lot of a 430 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 1: gentleman's club just off the Vegas Strip. The man who 431 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 1: found the car, the night manager at the strip club, 432 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: was a former Disgrace police officer in Las Vegas who 433 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 1: once had mob ties. This immediately raised a lot of 434 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,680 Speaker 1: eyebrows and made people wonder is there in organized crime 435 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: connection to this disappearance. Inside the car were traces of 436 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: blood too badly degraded for DNA testing. Forensic experts also 437 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: found mud. Well The detectives had developed a theory of 438 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: the Ron Ruin's body had been transported in the car 439 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: or in a trunk in the car, but a forensic 440 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: analysis could not determine where the mud came from. Well 441 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:58,479 Speaker 1: Also's skull was found. A hiker finds a human skull 442 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: in a ravine twenty yards away from the charred remains. 443 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: Additional bones found and a gold bracelet found with the 444 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: name Ron engraved on it, Still no idea on the 445 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: skull until dental records confirmed the skull is Ron Ruden. 446 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: He had been shot in the head four times with 447 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,959 Speaker 1: a twenty two caliber pistol. So to you, doctor Tim Gallagher, 448 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: how do you figure that out? What with an X 449 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 1: ray or do you have to open the skull? Well, 450 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: if the skull is found after that amount of times, 451 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: I don't think that there'd be any flesh left on it. 452 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 1: But if there is, you know, we do have very 453 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: good X ray equipment, and then we can determine by 454 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: the size of the wound and by the features of 455 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 1: the wound if they are entrance wounds, exit wounds, and 456 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: approximately what caliber they are. A twenty two caliber projectiles 457 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: a very small project calib makes a very small hole 458 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: and it doesn't really damage the bone a lot. So 459 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: if those skull was shot by a higher caliber firearm, 460 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 1: it would be shattered. If it was shot by a 461 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: small one of the holes would be very very preserved 462 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 1: and very well able to be analyzed. So the body 463 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: has been found, But how the hey did it get there? 464 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 1: It screams mob murder. Take a listen to what police 465 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: find when they go to the ruden listen to Peter Thomas. 466 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: Although police found nothing suspicious when they searched Rudin's home, 467 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 1: a local handyman told police he saw plenty that was 468 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: suspicious when he worked there just days after Ron disappeared. 469 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: He worked for Margaret can helped her decorate, and he 470 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: helped her clean up. She told him get rid of 471 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 1: this mattress, get rid of the bed, and tear out 472 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: the carpet. He found this dry, gooey, crunchy material in 473 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: the carpeting that he was sure was blood. The handyman 474 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: helped Margaret convert the master bedroom into an office. Although 475 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: the room had been redecorated, investigators decided to test the 476 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: walls and ceiling for blood that may have been removed 477 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: us so luminol. It looked like the milky way lit 478 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: up like a Christmas tree. They were certain this was 479 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 1: the death scene. What is luminol, Karen Smith, and how 480 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: does it work? And how do they find blood that 481 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: lit up the scene like the milky way lit up 482 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 1: like a Christmas tree. I can't tell you the number 483 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 1: of times I've seen it, and I've heard that luminol 484 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 1: is a camluminescent reagent. And what it does is it 485 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: reacts with the iron and blood and it turns the 486 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: bright blue color. It gives off light and when you 487 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: say it lit up like a Christmas tree, it looks 488 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: like the milky way. That is the primary scene of 489 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: a murder. There's no way around it. Blood will break 490 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: up into droplets that commensurate in size with the amount 491 00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: of force applied to them. So when you have blood 492 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: spatter all over a wall like that, in small, teeny 493 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: little pinpoint droplets, that's indicative of a gunshot. You have 494 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 1: a mattress that's been disposed of, you have carpet that's 495 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: been disposed of, that's the murder scene, Nancy, simple as that. 496 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 1: As I always say, I do not believe in conspiracies 497 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 1: very often because people can't keep their trap shut. Here 498 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: we go, Margaret Ruden. A trust the handyman to clean 499 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: up the crime scene and not talk. But then while investigators, 500 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: through the use of lumin all do find blood, the 501 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: one thing they can't find is Margaret Ruden. Take a 502 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: listen to our buddy Bill Curtis at American Justice. Margaret 503 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: Ruden was on the lamb charged with murdering her husband 504 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 1: run Ruden, The fifty three year old Las Vegas grandmother 505 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: had skipped down just ahead of the police. For three decades, 506 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 1: she had been supported by a string of husbands. Now, 507 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: for the first time, she would have to rely on 508 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: her own wits and her own money to survive. Going 509 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: on the lamb was one of the best things that 510 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 1: ever happened to her. She felt finally empowered. She was 511 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: on her own, she didn't have to rely on a man. 512 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 1: She felt good. Then she would prove to be adept 513 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: at avoiding capture. It didn't really surprise me that she 514 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: ran off. What surprised me later was that she was 515 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: so good at it. Margaret went to some elaborate means 516 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 1: to obtain false identity, and she had social Security cards, passports, 517 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: driver's licenses, all kinds of fake ID with her. Wow, 518 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: you know, the ability to go on the run and 519 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: outsmart the cops for that long fake IDs. You notice 520 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 1: at the beginning the family loved her. Thought she was 521 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: a stunning redhead. When I knew her, she was blonde, 522 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: and that changed many, many times. But then again it 523 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: all comes to a screeching halt. Here's Bill Curtiss, a 524 00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 1: woman in Phoenix Arizona contacted authorities there. She had seen 525 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 1: a segment of the television show America's Most Wanted that 526 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 1: featured us sought after murder us nicknamed the Black Widow 527 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 1: of Vegas. She told Phoenix police that an acquaintance of 528 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,399 Speaker 1: her is named n vote Right, looked like the woman 529 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: in the segment. The police went to question and vote Right. 530 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 1: She was interviewed by the same officer twice, and both 531 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 1: times she was able to convince him that she was 532 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: not this Margaret Ruden. He talked to her, and he 533 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: just couldn't believe that this soft spoken, sweet, grandmotherly person 534 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 1: could be a cold blooded killer. They felt that there 535 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,800 Speaker 1: was something wrong, but they just couldn't get the positive 536 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 1: identification on her and they had to let her go. 537 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,839 Speaker 1: Only later, an end vote Right's room at the YMCA, 538 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,760 Speaker 1: did police find a keychain with a Ron Ruden Realty logo. 539 00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 1: So let me understand this, do you? Sierra Gillespie Crime 540 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:04,839 Speaker 1: Online dot Com investigative reporter. A woman in feeding Sarazona 541 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: calls police saying her friend A boat Right looks just 542 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: like a woman just featured on americans Most Wanted. So 543 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 1: cops go there, not once but twice many times, and 544 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 1: on two occasions they speak to Anne Boat right, and 545 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 1: she convinces them she's not Margaret Rudin and they leave. Yeah, Nancy, 546 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 1: that's exactly what happened. It kind of sounds like a 547 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 1: movie script or something, right. I mean, this woman is 548 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,319 Speaker 1: very I guess it's almost like she's a spy. She 549 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,319 Speaker 1: changed her hair. She was later known as dying it 550 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 1: or wearing wigs. But yes, a woman saw her on 551 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,920 Speaker 1: America's Most Wanted in Arizona. She spoke to the police 552 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 1: and actually convinced them, coerced them possibly and said that's 553 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 1: not me, and they did have to let her go. 554 00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: It's amazing to me. Now, listen to this, Bill Curtis. 555 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,319 Speaker 1: In October nineteen ninety nine, authorities learned that Margaret had 556 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 1: sent several packages from a po box in Revere, Massachusetts, 557 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: to a friend in Utah. The contents included Christmas presents 558 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,840 Speaker 1: for Ridden's three grandchildren. Police in Revere staked out the 559 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 1: apartment where the po boxholder lived and used some creative 560 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 1: tactics to get inside to look for Margaret. The whole 561 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,400 Speaker 1: capture was the stuff of movies. A Domino's pizza had 562 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 1: been delivered to the apartment where she was living. The 563 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 1: Domino's guy pulled away, the cops came and said, hey, 564 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,839 Speaker 1: can we borrow a pizza box in your outfit? They 565 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,400 Speaker 1: did knock on the door, the doors opened by the 566 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 1: man who was living there with Margaret at the time, 567 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 1: and the cops come racing in with guns drawn and 568 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: maglite flashlights and the whole works, and Margaret's found cowering 569 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:57,439 Speaker 1: in a bathroom by the toilet. Questioned as to whether 570 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: she knew why she was being taken into custody, Ruden replied, 571 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 1: it's about that biggest thing. Wow, Okay, you're wondering why 572 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 1: police had to go to such extremes dressing up like 573 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 1: pizza's delivery in order to get Margaret Rudin. Well, take 574 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 1: a listen to Dave Matt with Crime online dot Com. 575 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:18,040 Speaker 1: Three weeks before her indictment, Margaret Rudin disappeared, ultimately landing 576 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 1: in Revere, Massachusetts, by way of Mexico. For more than 577 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: six months, she had been roommates with a retired firefighter 578 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: in an apartment in a triple decker house. That man 579 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 1: was Joseph Lundergen. Margaret Rudin was working to support herself 580 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,720 Speaker 1: by looking for work as an apprentice in a cobbler shop. 581 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,920 Speaker 1: The two reportedly met while living in the same Guadalajara 582 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: apartment complex and socializing in the same circle of American retirees. 583 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 1: Lundergen said that Ruden told him she was on the 584 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 1: run from a shadowy terrorist named Yahooda. Yahouda, she said 585 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 1: was a former Israeli secret agent working for trustees of 586 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 1: her murdered husband's estate. She told him they wanted her 587 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: dead to gain control of her late husband's millions. Okay, 588 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 1: so you see her weaving a little truth into her 589 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 1: fantastical lie. She mentions a murdered husband. Well you got 590 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:13,280 Speaker 1: that part right. Margaret Ruden convicted after years on the lamb. 591 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: To this day she insists she's innocent. Margaret Rudin kill 592 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:23,920 Speaker 1: her wife. Nancy Grace crib Story Siding. Goodbye friend,