Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this
Speaker 1: is there Are No Girls on the Internet. Happy New Year.
Speaker 1: Now that the holidays are officially over, I'm looking at
Speaker 1: what's in and what's out in tech for twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1: And to do that I joined my friends Samantha and
Speaker 1: Annie over at the podcast stuff. Mom never told you
Speaker 1: to run through what we should be leaving in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty three, I gotta ask what tech things are you
Speaker 1: leaving in twenty twenty three? After you listen to the episode,
Speaker 1: be sure to let me know.
Speaker 2: For the topic today that you brought us. You're talking
Speaker 2: about some of the things tech in the tech world
Speaker 2: that we should leave behind.
Speaker 3: Are wont exactly?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: If you all know that cartoon that you might see
Speaker 1: on Twitter a lot where it's like a woman stepping
Speaker 1: from one year to the next, and behind her she's
Speaker 1: leaving behind all of this baggage from the previous year,
Speaker 1: like fake friends or heartbreak, and then across over her shoulder,
Speaker 1: she's carrying what she's carrying into the next year. So
Speaker 1: like love or focus. Do you know the image that
Speaker 1: I'm talking about.
Speaker 4: I don't.
Speaker 2: I had never seen it, but I'm looking at it now.
Speaker 4: Yes, So buffet about that image.
Speaker 1: It was created by a British Ghanaian graphic artist named
Speaker 1: Penniel and Chill and it first appeared on the internet
Speaker 1: in twenty fourteen, and Buzzby has a great interview with her.
Speaker 1: But basically, this image has been totally memified and it
Speaker 1: kind of pops up around this time of year every
Speaker 1: year to sort of fit the theme of like new Year,
Speaker 1: new me. Sometimes it's a joke, which this artist says
Speaker 1: that she doesn't always agree with or like the way
Speaker 1: that people like do their spins on it. But it's
Speaker 1: really become a part of the shorthand of this time
Speaker 1: of year of like what we're leaving behind and what
Speaker 1: we're taking with us into the new year. So when
Speaker 1: that picture was making its rounds recently around this time
Speaker 1: of year, you know, I had just wrapped up podcasting
Speaker 1: for my own podcast. There are no girls on the
Speaker 1: internet talking about technology and identity and really asking questions
Speaker 1: about like what we get right and what we get
Speaker 1: wrong you know, in those in those arenas. So this
Speaker 1: image got me thinking what tech things should just stay
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three, and that we should not be
Speaker 1: bringing with us into twenty twenty four. So I've got
Speaker 1: my list of things that should stay. We're like, we're
Speaker 1: done with them, We're not, we should not be bringing
Speaker 1: them with us into the new year.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I was thinking about this too. This has
Speaker 2: been a big year for tech. This has felt like
Speaker 2: a very monumental like a lot of things are changing,
Speaker 2: and still looking at this list, I was like, oh, yeah, yah, Yeah,
Speaker 2: it can feel strange because time feels so strange now,
Speaker 2: but that did all happen this year. Yeah, So what
Speaker 2: is on your list? Let's get into it.
Speaker 1: So, as you said, like, it's been a big year
Speaker 1: for conversation around technology, that they're big right now, and
Speaker 1: I would say there probably is not a bigger conversation
Speaker 1: than the one happening around AI. Right So we're all
Speaker 1: like rightly talking about how AI could change the way
Speaker 1: that we do our jobs or the way that artistic
Speaker 1: projects get created, and those are all important conversations to
Speaker 1: be having, But there is one very serious conversation about
Speaker 1: the reality of AI, and that is how AI is
Speaker 1: being used to do things like violate consent and further
Speaker 1: use technology to make it seem like our bodies are
Speaker 1: just like up for grabs once we show up online.
Speaker 4: So case in point newdify apps.
Speaker 1: So newdify apps are kind of the catch all term
Speaker 1: for apps or platforms that promise to use AI to
Speaker 1: generate non consensual nude or semi nude images of anyone.
Speaker 1: These kinds of apps have been exploding in popularity. In
Speaker 1: September alone, twenty four million people visited newdify apps or
Speaker 1: undressing websites, according to the social network analysis company Graphica.
Speaker 1: So in their analysis they really talk about how we've
Speaker 1: how this year specifically, we've seen this shift where new
Speaker 1: toify apps kind of went from this niche, underground custom
Speaker 1: thing where like if you were like a singular creep
Speaker 1: who had a singular fixation on one person, you could
Speaker 1: find a marketplace for non consensual images to be made
Speaker 1: of somebody, but it was like a niche custom thing.
Speaker 1: Now in twenty twenty three, we have really seen that
Speaker 1: shift to where these are fleshed out monetized online businesses
Speaker 1: complete with advertising apparatuses. Graphica found that the volume of
Speaker 1: referral link spam for these kinds of services has increased
Speaker 1: by more than two thousand percent on social media platforms
Speaker 1: like Reddit and Twitter since the beginning of twenty twenty three,
Speaker 1: and this set of fifty two Telegram groups used to
Speaker 1: access non consensual image. Sites like these contain at least
Speaker 1: one million users as of September of twenty twenty three,
Speaker 1: so they have really exploded in popular Yet I think
Speaker 1: that we're only now, like only recently, come to have
Speaker 1: any kind of conversation about what that means, not just
Speaker 1: for you know, the women who are overwhelmingly targeted by
Speaker 1: these kinds of apps, but also what it means for
Speaker 1: our digital landscape more broadly.
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 5: None of this is familiar to me as many social
Speaker 5: media things as I'm involved in.
Speaker 3: Didn't know this was a thing. Didn't know.
Speaker 1: It's pretty despicable. It first got on my radar. It
Speaker 1: first seemed to be rolled out to like more mainstream
Speaker 1: platforms with celebrities, so it'll be like, oh, you can
Speaker 1: get a nude of any celebrity. And now it's like,
Speaker 1: not just celebrities, it's like anybody who can get it.
Speaker 1: You can generate a non consensual nude of anybody. And
Speaker 1: so one of the ways that this is becoming more
Speaker 1: and more ubiquitous is just seeing the advertisements for it
Speaker 1: on social media. After some journalists at Bloomberg were looking
Speaker 1: into the popularity kinds of apps, they contacted both TikTok
Speaker 1: and Facebook to ask them about you know, it's okay.
Speaker 4: It seems like these really.
Speaker 1: Gross apps are being allowed to advertise on your platforms.
Speaker 1: And both Facebook and TikTok I will say, you know,
Speaker 1: to their credit when Bloomberg reached out to them, they
Speaker 1: both did some work to block search terms related to
Speaker 1: newify apps, but one social media platform notably did not
Speaker 1: do that. Can you guess what platform? That was?
Speaker 3: Probably Twitter? Obviously I'm not calling name, No, let's.
Speaker 4: Call on Twitter still, so it was Twitter.
Speaker 1: They were like, we're actually fine with these neuify apps, Like,
Speaker 1: we don't see a problem.
Speaker 4: So this is from vice.
Speaker 1: Searching the word undress on TikTok brings up no results
Speaker 1: in either the top or video tabs. Instead, the platform
Speaker 1: warns users that the phrase may be associated with activity
Speaker 1: that violates the platform's guidelines. Searching the same term on
Speaker 1: Instagram similarly brings up no results. Searching undress on Twitter, however,
Speaker 1: readily surfaces a verified account with nearly twenty thousand followers
Speaker 1: promoting new toify app services. So let's say that you
Speaker 1: were to search Twitter for the word in dress instead
Speaker 1: of undress. Twitter is actually like, wait, were you actually
Speaker 1: meeting to search for undressed? And it prompts you to
Speaker 1: search for undress instead. So where other platforms are like, no,
Speaker 1: we can't have that on our on our platforms, Twitter
Speaker 1: is like not just allowing it on platforms, but like
Speaker 1: helping people to search it when they when they get
Speaker 1: it wrong. And so you might see people if you
Speaker 1: ever see newify apps advertise on these platforms, sometimes they
Speaker 1: like the a word is misspelled, or like there's a
Speaker 1: space between a couple some of the letters to try
Speaker 1: to evade being picked up and like knocked off the platform.
Speaker 4: But it generally.
Speaker 1: This does not seem like Twitter has a problem with
Speaker 1: these kinds of services being advertised on their platform.
Speaker 5: And I feel like this is a big question with
Speaker 5: like legalities, especially on public platforms like that in general.
Speaker 5: But like I'm talking about doing news and such like it.
Speaker 3: Seems like it should be illegal.
Speaker 5: It seems like this could be one of those things,
Speaker 5: especially like if you think about revenge born and all
Speaker 5: of that being illegal in so many places, Like, is
Speaker 5: that not a thing?
Speaker 2: Is that?
Speaker 5: Can you not take it to court or at least
Speaker 5: try to stop these images from happening?
Speaker 4: So that is a great question.
Speaker 1: When I first saw these, I was like, this has
Speaker 1: got to be illegal, And it turns out that right now,
Speaker 1: depending on where you live, it is probably not illegal
Speaker 1: to do this.
Speaker 4: It depends on your jurisdiction. But there is.
Speaker 1: Currently no federal law criminalizing using AI to generate non
Speaker 1: consensual deep fake images. Representative Evet Clark out of New
Speaker 1: York has actually proposed legislation that would criminalize making, you know,
Speaker 1: non consensual deep fakes, but as of right now, kind
Speaker 1: of unbelievably, there is not any legislation federally that prevents
Speaker 1: somebody from doing that. And Yeah, I just think that, like,
Speaker 1: as this kind of technology becomes more ubiquitous in our culture,
Speaker 1: I think it adds to this idea that just by
Speaker 1: showing up on the Internet, women are fair game for
Speaker 1: anybody who wants to sexualize us, and that I think
Speaker 1: it's getting to be getting to a point where the
Speaker 1: idea is like, well, if you didn't want someone to
Speaker 1: use your images in that way?
Speaker 4: Why did you post them to Instagram? Right?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 1: And I think that we really got to have a
Speaker 1: real serious think and a serious conversation about if that
Speaker 1: is going to be a social media climate that we want.
Speaker 4: And I think that that kind of thinking is the kind.
Speaker 1: Of thinking that we need to leave behind in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty three, right, Like, women should be able to show
Speaker 1: up online without non consensual sexualization just being the cost
Speaker 1: of showing up, and so let's leave that behind in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four.
Speaker 4: We are not bringing it with.
Speaker 2: Us, please please, Yeah. And that's one of the very
Speaker 2: frustrating thing since I did see a lot about this,
Speaker 2: and we even had an episode bridget about it about
Speaker 2: journalists getting targeted by stuff, yeah, and revenge porn and
Speaker 2: things like that, and this is just making it so
Speaker 2: much easier and it's harder to for some people, for
Speaker 2: all of us to ascertain like what is real and
Speaker 2: what is not real. But it does kind of disproportionately
Speaker 2: impact women and marginalized folks. And that's just one example
Speaker 2: of technology doing that that you have on your list.
Speaker 1: Right, yes, And I think, like, just like what you said,
Speaker 1: I think that there are specific groups that we see
Speaker 1: being targeted for this kind of harm first, and then it's.
Speaker 4: Like, oh nah.
Speaker 1: And then like when those groups, when it's allowed to
Speaker 1: happen to those groups, it's like, oh, well, you know,
Speaker 1: nobody really does anything. And then it's like, oh, surprise,
Speaker 1: Now it's everybody's problem. Now we just live in a
Speaker 1: society where like this is commonplace, and like maybe when
Speaker 1: this was happening to specific groups of people, if you
Speaker 1: had done something and take it seriously, then we wouldn't
Speaker 1: have allowed it to just become ubiquitous. Right, And I
Speaker 1: don't think anybody wants to live in a culture where
Speaker 1: anybody is fair game just because they were all they
Speaker 1: put a picture of themselves on the Internet, to have
Speaker 1: that picture be distorted and sexualized.
Speaker 4: So absolutely right.
Speaker 1: So that brings me to another thing that we should
Speaker 1: not be taking with us into twenty twenty four, and
Speaker 1: that as content moderation policies that really hurt women and
Speaker 1: other marginalized people.
Speaker 4: So, as you were talking.
Speaker 1: About with AI right now, AI is used in content
Speaker 1: moderation that really does a lot of the work of
Speaker 1: deciding what gets amplified and what gets suppressed on social media.
Speaker 1: This technology, however, also objectifies women's bodies, and it's much
Speaker 1: more likely to flag images that involve women or include
Speaker 1: women as racy or inappropriate, and thus those images are
Speaker 1: more likely to be suppressed on social media sites. So
Speaker 1: The Guardian actually put together like a really interesting investigation
Speaker 1: into this, where they had journalists use AI tools to
Speaker 1: analyz hundreds of photos of men and women in their underwear,
Speaker 1: working out using medical tests and with partial nudity, and
Speaker 1: found that the AI used will tag photos of women
Speaker 1: in everyday situations as sexually suggestive. So I'm talking about
Speaker 1: images of like women in their underwear fully covered, or
Speaker 1: women working out at the gym fully covered, right, like
Speaker 1: images that we would recognize as not racy, but because
Speaker 1: they include women, the tools that are being used to
Speaker 1: make decisions about how content is moderated will be like, no,
Speaker 1: that's racy, can't have that.
Speaker 4: On social media.
Speaker 1: And so as a result of this, social media companies
Speaker 1: that leverage these algorithms have suppressed honestly countless images of
Speaker 1: featuring women's bodies. We know that this hurts women led businesses,
Speaker 1: and this is reading about how a shapewear company essentially
Speaker 1: can't advertise on social media because images of women's bodies
Speaker 1: fully covered in shapewear will just be suppressed by these algorithms,
Speaker 1: and they essentially cannot advertise their product on social media,
Speaker 1: which is like where you advertise products in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1: This also like not only does it hurt female led businesses,
Speaker 1: it also has medical impacts. They found that this disparity
Speaker 1: is also true for medical images. AI was shown images
Speaker 1: from the US National Cancer Institute demonstrating how to do
Speaker 1: a clinical breast exam. Google's AI gave this photo the
Speaker 1: highest score for raciness. Microsoft's AI was eighty two percent
Speaker 1: confident that these images of women doing breast exams was
Speaker 1: explicit sexually in nature, and Amazon classified it as representing
Speaker 1: explicit nudity. This is also true for pregnant bellies. If
Speaker 1: you are heavily pregnant and showing a pregnant belly on
Speaker 1: social media platforms, AI is much more likely to deem
Speaker 1: that image to be racy and then suppress that in
Speaker 1: their content moderation tools.
Speaker 4: And so you really get a sense.
Speaker 1: Of the way that these platforms are creating a disproportion
Speaker 1: it cost for being a woman who shows up online
Speaker 1: like it prevents women from being able to express themselves.
Speaker 1: It prevents women from being able to get medical information
Speaker 1: about our bodies, and ultimately it's just not fair, like
Speaker 1: we shouldn't have to deal with this just because we
Speaker 1: showed up on our social media platform with our bodies,
Speaker 1: Like there's nothing wrong with women's bodies, They're not racy
Speaker 1: or explicit just by us having.
Speaker 2: Them right, right, And I believe Smith and I we
Speaker 2: talked about this about YouTube because YouTube had a similar
Speaker 2: strange thing that was happening where it was flagging videos
Speaker 2: of children the young girls. Is just like, this is
Speaker 2: so sexual and it's just like literally young girls, and
Speaker 2: it's it's telling to what is going on in our society,
Speaker 2: the problems of objectifying and sexualizing women. But also, this
Speaker 2: is a big thing that we talked about with you,
Speaker 2: Bridget when it matters who's making these things, who's doing
Speaker 2: this stuff. And AI is a pretty new space, but
Speaker 2: I've already seen a lot of conversations about about the
Speaker 2: importance of who is working on it. So that's part
Speaker 2: of what is going on here, right totally.
Speaker 1: So The Guardian spoke to Margaret Mitchell of the AI
Speaker 1: company Hugging Face, who said that she believes that the
Speaker 1: photos used to train these algorithms were probably just being
Speaker 1: labeled by straight men who probably associate men working out
Speaker 1: with fitness, but maybe consider an image of a woman
Speaker 1: working out as being like racy or sexual or explicit,
Speaker 1: even though it's like the same theme, the same content.
Speaker 1: And so it's possible that these ratings seem gender biased
Speaker 1: in the US and in Europe because the labelers might
Speaker 1: be from a place that might have more conservative cultures, right,
Speaker 1: And so yeah, it really matters who is building technology,
Speaker 1: who's in the room and the technology gets built, who
Speaker 1: is training it, who is rolling it out, who is
Speaker 1: thinking about it, who's writing about it, who's talking about it.
Speaker 1: If these people are mostly men, then like, of course
Speaker 1: women and other marginalized people are not showing up in
Speaker 1: an equitable way. With all the conversations that we have
Speaker 1: around things like inclusion and diversity and equity and tech,
Speaker 1: I don't I'm not like harping on those just because
Speaker 1: it's like nice to do or it's like the right
Speaker 1: thing to do, which it is it is because eventually
Speaker 1: the technology that gets built is worse, is less inclusive,
Speaker 1: is more dangerous, like it includes less people.
Speaker 4: And that ends up hurting all of us. Yes, it does.
Speaker 2: And speaking of that, you have another point on here,
Speaker 2: going back to something we were talking about earlier about
Speaker 2: women in journalism.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, so I'm so glad that was a great transition,
Speaker 1: which is that you know, it's like one of the
Speaker 1: reasons why I started my own podcast about this is
Speaker 1: that we unfortunately have a tech culture that can treat
Speaker 1: women like perpetual outsiders, right, whether by accident or with intention,
Speaker 1: and that is something that we gotta leave in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty three, really because I have left it like in
Speaker 1: like many many many years past, but this is the
Speaker 1: time that we should be leaving it in the past
Speaker 1: because exactly what you said, it is so critical. These
Speaker 1: tools are going to be shaping our world and how
Speaker 1: we understand our world. So we've got to make sure
Speaker 1: that people who are publicly talking about it and are
Speaker 1: included in that conversation are done so in a way
Speaker 1: that does not treat them like perpetual outsiders. And so
Speaker 1: women who are working for that AI company that I
Speaker 1: mentioned before, hugging face, but you can sort of think
Speaker 1: of as like a competitor to open Ai, the company
Speaker 1: that makes chat GPT, which is run by that.
Speaker 4: Guy Sam Altman.
Speaker 1: Hugging Face has a lot of women who work there,
Speaker 1: and these women do a ton of.
Speaker 4: Like public speaking about tech and AI.
Speaker 1: And the media, which is great, and I also think
Speaker 1: again it's important because it can help to change the
Speaker 1: face of like who we think of as somebody who
Speaker 1: gets to speak or gets to have.
Speaker 4: An opinion when it comes to technology, and that's great.
Speaker 1: However, the women at Hugging Face also noticed that when
Speaker 1: they were doing public speaking about AI with the press,
Speaker 1: times would get like sexist or otherwise kind of messed
Speaker 1: up questions during interviews that just like really highlighted that
Speaker 1: they were not necessarily being treated like people who belonged
Speaker 1: in the space. Margaret Mitchell, she is Hugging Faces chief
Speaker 1: ethics scientist, framed it as a research question. She asked
Speaker 1: what are patterns and how journalists talk to and about
Speaker 1: women and AI. She found that compared to male peers,
Speaker 1: there is a disproportionate focus from the press on their ages,
Speaker 1: their motherhood, their physical appearance or behaviors, their failures, and
Speaker 1: what AI gossip they could provide, rather than their like
Speaker 1: technical work. And these are people who are incredibly accomplished.
Speaker 1: They're like doing very important work that they've gone to
Speaker 1: school for been trained for in an article.
Speaker 4: If you get to interview.
Speaker 1: Them and you ask about their age, or you ask
Speaker 1: if they have kids, or you ask you know, about
Speaker 1: their the way they look, it's it's so limiting because
Speaker 1: it's like you have somebody who has dedicated their life
Speaker 1: to this very important technology and this is what you
Speaker 1: ask them. Like it's such a it's such a miss
Speaker 1: on part on the part of the journalists.
Speaker 5: It's like, I thought you by now at this point
Speaker 5: in AI there would be more things to talk about.
Speaker 5: There's so many questions that we should be asking again,
Speaker 5: things like how are how are sexist issues being handled
Speaker 5: in AI? How are you protecting women in AI? And
Speaker 5: not about the individual's person, be like, so you got
Speaker 5: a kid, you gotta be on the computer while you
Speaker 5: have a kid, how.
Speaker 3: Are you gonna do that? Like, well, this seems so
Speaker 3: like far FoST Like why is this? Is this a
Speaker 3: s good?
Speaker 4: Are you?
Speaker 3: Are we still doing this?
Speaker 4: What's frustrating? It's like they would never ask a man.
Speaker 1: If you were talking to like a powerful man, you
Speaker 1: would never be like, oh, well, who watches your kids
Speaker 1: while you're working?
Speaker 4: Or like how do how do how do you juggle
Speaker 4: being a dad and like being a scientist?
Speaker 1: Like these are things that would not that like would
Speaker 1: not come up. They're only coming up because they're women.
Speaker 1: Doctor Sasha Lucioni, who was an AI researcher and a
Speaker 1: climate lead at hucking Face, was in this like pretty
Speaker 1: glowing piece for Adweek. The piece was great, but the
Speaker 1: headline to the article read this AI ethics expert juggles
Speaker 1: motherhood and a tech career and people had to like
Speaker 1: raise hell to get them to change it. And yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just like I do think that there is a
Speaker 1: place for conversations about what it looks like to juggle
Speaker 1: career and family and all of that, But those are
Speaker 1: not conversations that should only be happening to women, and
Speaker 1: there's a time and a place for them, right, Like
Speaker 1: if you're meant to be interviewing somebody about their technical prowess,
Speaker 1: that I don't see how that is is relevant to
Speaker 1: their technical expertise.
Speaker 5: Right, And that piece in the self the title is
Speaker 5: so condescending, is that that's note like.
Speaker 3: Aw, look at you how cute? Look at you doing that?
Speaker 5: You go, you go girl, I'm so proud of you
Speaker 5: instead of seeing that professional scientists who has more degrees
Speaker 5: and more experience than the person who actually probably wrote
Speaker 5: the article. I don't know for sure, but just that
Speaker 5: level of like proble, Wow, really, what are you doing?
Speaker 5: Like is it because you feel insecure that you need
Speaker 5: to be condescending but maybe like passive aggressively like but no, no, no,
Speaker 5: I'm really impressed.
Speaker 1: Really, it is so condescending, and so, in an effort
Speaker 1: to help the space be better, the women who work
Speaker 1: at Hugging Face actually developed a guide for journalists to
Speaker 1: help get it right, to help create a better dynamic
Speaker 1: so that it's not just condescending question and sexist question
Speaker 1: after sexist question. The guide reads the real achievements of
Speaker 1: women on our team often get overshadowed by a focus
Speaker 1: on personal and sometimes very intrusive details that are not
Speaker 1: relevant to their work. With all the amazing press attention
Speaker 1: we get at Hugging Face, we're bound to see some
Speaker 1: journalists rely on outdated tropes. Lately, we've seen more reporters
Speaker 1: ignoring our amazing achievements of our ses and theays and
Speaker 1: instead focusing on stereotypes in tech. One of the things
Speaker 1: that I love about the guys that they put out
Speaker 1: is that it really highlights the importance of not treating
Speaker 1: tech like a place where women don't belong. And so,
Speaker 1: for instance, the guide reads, don't rely on antiquated stereotypes
Speaker 1: about women in tech. This includes describing women as outsiders
Speaker 1: in the field, which only serves to reinforce the idea
Speaker 1: that women don't belong in tech. An example of a
Speaker 1: problematic sentence they give despite being a woman in a
Speaker 1: male dominated field, brook Brookie has made a name for
Speaker 1: herself in the tech industry better Is through her brilliant
Speaker 1: results on magic and large language models. Brooke Brookie made
Speaker 1: a name for herself in the tech industry. And so
Speaker 1: this I think is really key, and I think people
Speaker 1: do this without even really meaning to you, is that
Speaker 1: the tech industry, women and queer folks and trans folks
Speaker 1: and black folks and folks with disabilities and all different
Speaker 1: kinds of people who are traditionally marginaliznsed in our society
Speaker 1: have been at the beginning of technology and have been
Speaker 1: the very start. We have this idea that like, oh,
Speaker 1: tech is this like white male CIS boys club and
Speaker 1: anybody else is trying to break their way in, and
Speaker 1: that's I can understand why people feel that way, But
Speaker 1: we have been there from the very beginning. And if
Speaker 1: if you don't always hear our stories or our voices,
Speaker 1: it's not because we're not there, it's because specific choices
Speaker 1: have been made to keep to like sideline us and
Speaker 1: to turn down our voices. And so really starting from
Speaker 1: a place that like, we do belong in these conversations,
Speaker 1: we do belong in tech, we do belong in the sector.
Speaker 1: We're not outsiders, I think is really really important, and
Speaker 1: it also just really matters. You know, if the people
Speaker 1: who are building technology and talking about technology and thinking
Speaker 1: about technology are only one type of person, the tech
Speaker 1: that gets.
Speaker 4: Built is going to be a whole lot worse.
Speaker 1: And so all of us benefit when more voices are
Speaker 1: included and feel included and feel empowered to join the conversation.
Speaker 5: You would think that would be an obvious and also
Speaker 5: that it would be it would save money, It would
Speaker 5: save money, and all the revamping and redoing of everything
Speaker 5: that you knew, well I would expect you knew. But
Speaker 5: that could go wrong when you don't have the right people,
Speaker 5: or all the people at least represented in this conversation,
Speaker 5: especially if you're wanting these people to use your technology.
Speaker 1: You're so right, And like, what's interesting is I once
Speaker 1: read this book called Mothers of Invention, all about how
Speaker 1: things like misogyny and bias around women stifle innovation. And
Speaker 1: something that's really struck me from that book is how
Speaker 1: much money gets left on the table because of things
Speaker 1: like gender bias and misogyny. It's like, you would think
Speaker 1: in a capitalistic society that for profit companies would want
Speaker 1: money above anything. You might be surprised because they are
Speaker 1: perfectly willing to lose money if it means further entrenching
Speaker 1: gender bias and massogey here.
Speaker 4: Yeah, which is so nonsensical.
Speaker 5: Right, I guess it's power over money, even though money
Speaker 5: can be considered power.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we were doing I was trying to do a
Speaker 2: wrap up episode like this about video games and board games,
Speaker 2: and I ran across kind of a stunning, upsetting amount
Speaker 2: of how often people in power who are dudes, were like,
Speaker 2: it's just women don't make good stuff, and they would
Speaker 2: literally be like, uh, people don't buy those things, those
Speaker 2: party games, Why yes they do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, look at the demographics of who is actually playing
Speaker 1: video games it is a lot of women, and so
Speaker 1: set like I think not making video games and stuff
Speaker 1: that like women want. When a big chunk of your
Speaker 1: customer base just is women, it's a fact that is
Speaker 1: on you, that is like you don't know how to
Speaker 1: do it or unwilling to do it.
Speaker 4: It's like any anything that you could say is just
Speaker 4: an excuse to not do it right.
Speaker 5: Like you look at Animal Crossing and the fact they
Speaker 5: made bank, especially during COVID and quarantine, and you're like
Speaker 5: you sure, are you sure?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: This guy in question was he was saying, like all
Speaker 2: the games women like to play, which are like in
Speaker 2: his mind, are much more too political or two like parties,
Speaker 2: like Animal Mobile games like aren't good and don't make money.
Speaker 4: And it's like, uh, are you sure?
Speaker 3: I can't?
Speaker 4: Why?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: This also reminds me of it's kind of upsetting, but
Speaker 2: it reminds me of when Sally Ride was, you know,
Speaker 2: getting ready to go to space and they would have
Speaker 2: these press conferences with her and all these men and
Speaker 2: the men they're asking like all these like questions related
Speaker 2: to the jab and her. They'd be like, how are
Speaker 2: you gonna put your makeup on space?
Speaker 4: What it has?
Speaker 2: It? Like it's still there that kind of do we
Speaker 2: still gender these things and we still other people And
Speaker 2: it does really matter who's writing about it and who
Speaker 2: whose stories are getting published or getting that traction, because
Speaker 2: you know, if it's mostly white men's stories who's getting
Speaker 2: like all of the attention, then that does help reinforce
Speaker 2: this idea that yeah, it's this white male space when
Speaker 2: it isn't and it hasn't been, as you said, yeah.
Speaker 4: Did you ever hear?
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure you have all have heard this story,
Speaker 1: but it really sticks with me that when Sally Ride
Speaker 1: was going to space, she's going to be there for
Speaker 1: one week, and the like scientists or engineers at NASA whoever,
Speaker 1: were like, they gave her a hunt.
Speaker 4: Was it two hundred tampons or one hundred tampons?
Speaker 1: She'd be there for one week? And when she was like, oh,
Speaker 1: one hundred tampons, they were like, will that be enough?
Speaker 1: Like these are the greatest scientific mott Like, right, nobody
Speaker 1: can tell me that like male scientists are like better
Speaker 1: than women when that's what's going on?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 2: Can you imagine if you honestly believe that was true
Speaker 2: and then for to expect the women in your life
Speaker 2: or the people who menstrate in your life to just
Speaker 2: be going through.
Speaker 3: Two hundred and.
Speaker 5: We have to pay that much when you were like
Speaker 5: looking at tampons and they're like thirty for what is it,
Speaker 5: like eight dollars or thirty?
Speaker 4: They're like thirty. So it's like how much that I
Speaker 4: have so many questions?
Speaker 3: I have so many There's so many questions.
Speaker 5: There's so many questions, and to be fair and like
Speaker 5: in everything, like how did you think this was going
Speaker 5: to work? Like who invented this? This is not this
Speaker 5: is this doesn't work like that?
Speaker 3: What are you doing?
Speaker 1: God? Sometimes like oh, this is such a non secutor
Speaker 1: sometimes when I think about gender dynamics, like I remember
Speaker 1: reading this tweet from a guy who was like, people
Speaker 1: think Taylor Swift is so pretty, but here she is
Speaker 1: without makeup, and it's like, did you think that she was.
Speaker 4: Born with cat eyes and like break red lips?
Speaker 1: And you thought all of us thought that You clearly
Speaker 1: thought that, but you thought all of us thought that,
Speaker 1: Like and then you're like you're supposed to be getting
Speaker 1: one over on us women, Like the whole thing is
Speaker 1: just laughable.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like such a great example of who we
Speaker 2: consider the norm in society whose experience we consider the
Speaker 2: norm we base it on, because I was thinking about
Speaker 2: that recently too, about this whole idea that I feel
Speaker 2: like has faded away largely but not always. But like
Speaker 2: women who would wake up early and put on makeup
Speaker 2: so their partner would not see them without makeup. So
Speaker 2: it's like, it's like a lot of us feel that
Speaker 2: we have to do this thing because then we'll get
Speaker 2: this complaint from this random jackets.
Speaker 4: On social media.
Speaker 2: But then it's also like, dude, what do you think?
Speaker 2: It's strange. It's like a strange dynamic that is happening
Speaker 2: where you feel the pressure to do it. But then
Speaker 2: also shouldn't they shouldn't people realize how much work.
Speaker 4: It is, right?
Speaker 5: Yeah, And it kind of goes into that another question
Speaker 5: that I'm kind of concerned about I've had, like I've
Speaker 5: been noticing more and more on TikTok they just have
Speaker 5: automatic filters, and a lot of people talk about the
Speaker 5: fact that they use different filters, especially because they don't
Speaker 5: want to wear makeup and all that, and this feels
Speaker 5: makes them feel better, which all all in on whatever
Speaker 5: you do, you but then this level of expectation that
Speaker 5: especially men, especially I'm gonna say sis, heterosexual men think
Speaker 5: that this is what you should look like. And if
Speaker 5: you don't look like that in real life, holy catfish
Speaker 5: me and you've lied to me. Like in this new
Speaker 5: level of standard, a beauty standard, that might been like, Okay,
Speaker 5: this is good for us because it makes us kind
Speaker 5: of feel better.
Speaker 3: But at the same time, what is it leading to?
Speaker 1: That's such an interesting question, And I guess I just
Speaker 1: think that like a lot of men, like sis, heterosexual men,
Speaker 1: I think, are really willing to live in a fantasy world.
Speaker 4: Like they're really like it's like if.
Speaker 1: You if you think that you know, some of those
Speaker 1: TikTok filters they give you like glitter on your eyes,
Speaker 1: if you thought that, like somebody came out of the
Speaker 1: womb with like glitter on their eyes, Like I sometimes
Speaker 1: like it's it's like, honestly, it's one of the reasons
Speaker 1: why I don't really remove my body hair, because when
Speaker 1: you add up how much time it takes to do it,
Speaker 1: it's like it's actually not it's a lot of work,
Speaker 1: And it's like do I want to do extra work
Speaker 1: and pay whatever extra money it takes to buy the
Speaker 1: razor and this and that to feed into a fantasy that.
Speaker 4: Adult women don't have body hair.
Speaker 1: No, I don't like if you're if you're like you
Speaker 1: should by now know that adult women do you generally
Speaker 1: have body hair. And I'm not I'm not interested in
Speaker 1: perpetuating this like very weird fantasy world where this becomes
Speaker 1: how women are in the world.
Speaker 4: And then if you see a woman.
Speaker 1: Who is not doing that, it's it's not it's like
Speaker 1: out of sync with how you think.
Speaker 4: Women should exist. I guess I'll say I don't.
Speaker 5: I don't know if that fence no, Yeah, it absolutely does.
Speaker 5: It kind of again, it faes into this narrative that
Speaker 5: women are supposed to be this higher level of beauty
Speaker 5: standard in order to fit with a norm which is
Speaker 5: so much less work from men in general.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and when we're looking at like tech, I mean,
Speaker 2: so many of the things that we've talked about on
Speaker 2: here do you play into that, whether it's filters or
Speaker 2: social media, of these kind of beauty standards that are
Speaker 2: getting perpetuated. Just the vitriol women can receive just by
Speaker 2: here's my face on social media. So it is really
Speaker 2: unfortunate because it's we can't ignore that that does happen.
Speaker 2: And I know I've told the story before, but I
Speaker 2: have a lovely collage of all of the horrible things
Speaker 2: people have said to me online. But it's also like,
Speaker 2: why can't we just these are women who are doing
Speaker 2: amazing things in AI. We don't have to talk about
Speaker 2: how they look. We really don't, right, we really don't.
Speaker 5: We don't need to know how many children she has.
Speaker 5: We don't need to know she has a husband or
Speaker 5: a partner. Like, that's not we want to know. Are
Speaker 5: you doing better AI that protects people? Yeah, wonderful, let's
Speaker 5: support that.
Speaker 1: Yes, And it's such a yeah, it's just such a
Speaker 1: missed opportunity because like the majority of people who are
Speaker 1: making sure that AI is safe or more inclusive, or
Speaker 1: doesn't harm people, or is ethical or doing really interesting work,
Speaker 1: those people tend to also be women, people of color,
Speaker 1: people who are not necessarily treated as the norm in tech.
Speaker 1: And so when you have an opportunity to talk to
Speaker 1: these people, actually use it because what they are working
Speaker 1: on probably really matters, and like it matters to all
Speaker 1: of us. Even if you're not somebody who is a Katechi,
Speaker 1: you're not somebody who thinks of yourself as like somebody
Speaker 1: who thinks about AI a lot.
Speaker 4: This stuff is going to matter to everybody.
Speaker 1: And I guess that brings me to one of the
Speaker 1: things that I'm looking forward to in twenty twenty four
Speaker 1: that I if I'm the girl in the cartoon that
Speaker 1: I've got this in my bag slung over my shoulder,
Speaker 1: that I'm taking it with me to the next year,
Speaker 1: and that is all of us, each and every one
Speaker 1: of us, being more involved in conversations around tech. Like
Speaker 1: I do think I have seen a shift this year
Speaker 1: around how regular people like you and me and people
Speaker 1: listening you know, are thinking about technology and talking about technology.
Speaker 1: I think that we are done with this idea that
Speaker 1: tech is only decided by a bunch of like super smart,
Speaker 1: genius white guys who don't have to be accountable to
Speaker 1: us at all because we're like not smart enough to
Speaker 1: understand the brilliance that they do. That is out I
Speaker 1: think that in twenty twenty three we are coming to
Speaker 1: the realization that these people have been using that dynamic
Speaker 1: as a way to essentially like get rich off of us,
Speaker 1: and I think that we're going to start asking some
Speaker 1: question about that dynamic and pushing it back, like, should
Speaker 1: these companies and tech leaders be able to just get
Speaker 1: rich off of us without us asking any questions or
Speaker 1: having any say I think, I think I'm starting to
Speaker 1: see people be like, No, Actually, I am smart enough
Speaker 1: to understand that I'm being taken advantage of it, exploited,
Speaker 1: and I have questions about that. So let's keep asking
Speaker 1: those questions in twenty twenty four, let's bring that dynamic
Speaker 1: into the new year with us.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and of course always your show is such
Speaker 2: a good part of that and part of that conversation,
Speaker 2: so very eagerly awaiting the next the next season. Do
Speaker 2: you call it seasons, frigid, We call.
Speaker 1: It seasons, but they're really just like when I get
Speaker 1: tired of making the show and I have to take
Speaker 1: a break.
Speaker 4: So we are taking a break, but we'll be back real.
Speaker 5: Soon while you're here with us answering those questions and
Speaker 5: asking those questions and allowing us to ask you those questions.
Speaker 5: So we are very grateful for that and excited for
Speaker 5: that for the new year.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and we are hoping maybe we'll get to
Speaker 2: hang out irl and do some things in twenty four.
Speaker 3: One day, one day.
Speaker 4: It's gonna happen soon. Stay ye tune folks.
Speaker 2: Yes well, Bridget, thank you so much as always for
Speaker 2: being here at the end of this year.
Speaker 3: Where can the good listeners find you?
Speaker 1: You can check out my podcast there are no girls
Speaker 1: on the internet on iHeartRadio. You can find me on
Speaker 1: Instagram at Bridget Marie and DC or on Twitter at
Speaker 1: Bridget Marie.
Speaker 2: Yes, and definitely go do that listeners if you haven't already, Bridgeitte,
Speaker 2: I hope you have a good relaxing holiday, weirdo Christmas.
Speaker 1: Yes, thank you all, Happy Mary whatever to all of y'all.
Speaker 2: Yes, thank you and listeners. If you would like to
Speaker 2: contact us, you can or email is Stephanie and mom
Speaker 2: Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on
Speaker 2: Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast or in instagrament TikTok at Stuff.
Speaker 2: I never told you a ta public store and we
Speaker 2: do have a book. Thanks as always to our super
Speaker 2: producer Christina, our executive producer Maya, and our contributor Joey.
Speaker 3: Thank you and happy holidays.
Speaker 2: Yes yes, and thanks.
Speaker 3: To you for listening.
Speaker 2: Stefan never told you the prediction of iHeartRadio. For more
Speaker 2: podcasts from My Heart Radio, you can check out the iHeartRadio,
Speaker 2: Apple podcasts, or where you listen to your favorite shows.