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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if you've had

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Speaker 1: an experience with manipulation or abuse of power you'd like

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Speaker 1: to share, leave us a message on our hotline number

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Speaker 1: at five one three nine hundred two nine five five.

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Speaker 2: Or shoot us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 2: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust Me, Trust trust Me. I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 3: I've never lived to you, and we never have a live.

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Speaker 1: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 1: don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme

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Speaker 1: belief and the abusive power from two former members who've

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Speaker 1: actually experienced it. I am Lola.

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Speaker 4: Blanc and I am Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 1: Today our guest is Glenn Washington, whose voice you may

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Speaker 1: have heard already because he hosts Public Radio's storytelling show

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Speaker 1: Snap Judgment, which is so good, as well as the

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Speaker 1: podcasts Heaven's Gate and Spooked, and probably more so. Glynn

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Speaker 1: is here with us today because he actually grew up

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Speaker 1: in an apocalyptic religious cult called the Worldwide Church of God.

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Speaker 1: He's going to tell us about what it was like

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Speaker 1: believing that the world could end at any minute. The

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Speaker 1: Special Trips members of the church would go on to

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Speaker 1: intentionally blow a huge chunk of their income, and how

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Speaker 1: thanks to the group's white supremacist ideologies, he wasn't allowed

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Speaker 1: to date outside of his own race. He's also going

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Speaker 1: to tell us about the book that began to change

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Speaker 1: his thinking, the trip that solidified that change, and what

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Speaker 1: he believes now. Very excited to get into that, But

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Speaker 1: before we do, Dearest Megan, what is the cultiest thing

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Speaker 1: that's happened to you? This week?

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Speaker 2: My boyfriend's mom started selling a like skincare line. Okay,

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Speaker 2: it's called Rodin and Fields or something. Everybody knows what

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Speaker 2: I'm talking about. I'm sure, but uh.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what you're talking about, but I'm just

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Speaker 1: going to act like I do.

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Speaker 2: It's a skincare line, and she was like you should

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Speaker 2: try it, and I was like, okay, whatever, But I did, right,

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Speaker 2: And people keep saying that my skin looks good and

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Speaker 2: saying what are you using? And then I have to

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Speaker 2: basically give them like a cult spiel back.

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Speaker 1: Like a little little MLM.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm like, well, it's this thing.

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Speaker 2: You order it on and you can get a discount

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Speaker 2: if you'd pay the seventy five dollars and like all

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Speaker 2: the shit, and I'm like, oh my god, this is

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Speaker 2: so embarrassing.

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Speaker 4: I need to just say I'm using like something else.

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Speaker 1: Have you found them any customers yet?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? You have?

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, the great Yeah this is great. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you're embedded in a pyramid scheme now, exactly. So

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Speaker 1: that's cool.

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Speaker 4: That's pretty cool. Did anything, as could tea happened to

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Speaker 4: you this week?

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Speaker 1: Well, this week I have been dealing with the past

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Speaker 1: couple weeks. Actually, I've been dealing with some physical problems, okay,

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Speaker 1: health things, and they have to do with my bladder.

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Speaker 1: Oh tmiy'all love me some TMI.

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Speaker 4: Why aren't bladders sexy? They they touched the vagina to me?

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Speaker 1: Okay, oh my god, yes they do touch the vagina

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Speaker 1: and it's a fucking nightmare. But as a result of

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Speaker 1: these issues, and as a result of having terrible health insurance,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, don't even get me started on the fucking

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Speaker 1: stupid healthcare system in America. But I have been unable

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Speaker 1: to see a competent doctor. And so now I'm like

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Speaker 1: in a place where I am feeling rather desperate and

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Speaker 1: I feel like I am one hundred percent vulnerable in

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Speaker 1: this moment I spoke to my friend's mom on the phone,

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Speaker 1: who's like a homeopathic healer, which you know, is so

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Speaker 1: not something that I do. And if someone came up

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Speaker 1: to me and was like, Lola, I have the solution

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Speaker 1: for your thing. All you need is this five hundred

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Speaker 1: dollars program, I'd be like, I'm in. I'm sold. I

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Speaker 1: will join. Just make it stop, just someone make it stop.

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Speaker 3: Please.

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Speaker 4: Oh my god.

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Speaker 1: That's where I'm at.

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Speaker 2: My old roommate, I remember once I came home and

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Speaker 2: she had all of these bottles of tequila and the

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Speaker 2: nice tequila, those like white.

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Speaker 4: And blue bottle, weird bottles.

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Speaker 2: You know, And I was like, are you having a party,

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Speaker 2: And she's like, no, I went to a natural healer

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Speaker 2: and she said to cure my bladder infection, I need

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Speaker 2: to take a bath and tequila.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god.

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Speaker 4: And I was like, that can't be true. You have

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Speaker 4: to not do it. But she did it and it

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Speaker 4: didn't go away.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, well that's I feel like generally what happens

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Speaker 1: when you see someone who's not a doctor. Sometimes it's great.

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Speaker 1: Even actual doctors don't know what the fuck they're talking

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Speaker 1: about half of the time, which is what's especially maddening.

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Speaker 2: This is the true cultiest thing of the week. If

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Speaker 2: it was happening to men, there would be forty thousand curious.

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Speaker 4: It's not. It's happening to women. So they're like, we

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Speaker 4: don't know, it's weird. Figure it out.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I know so many women who are struggling

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Speaker 1: with recurring chronic mystery diseases that science is just like, oh,

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Speaker 1: needs more research.

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Speaker 4: You're imagining it probably stressed. Yeah, stop wiping from back

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Speaker 4: to front. We're not.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh doing that. I am so fucking If

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Speaker 1: another doctor tells me that, I will scream. I know

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Speaker 1: to not. I don't not to get disgusting, but we

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Speaker 1: know not to do that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, we do.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, it's it's rough life over here, y'all. I

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Speaker 1: will survive. I'm a survivor. I'm gonna make it. I'm

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Speaker 1: a survivor. Keep on surviving.

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Speaker 4: Beautiful.

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Speaker 1: It's beautiful, right, beautiful Dusty's child lyrics. Okay, how about

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Speaker 1: we start talking to Glenn.

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Speaker 4: Now sounds good. Let's do it. Let's do it.

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Speaker 1: Welcome Glenn Washington to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me here today. I

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Speaker 3: really appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: Ah, we really appreciate you coming on. I am such

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Speaker 1: a big fan of you and your voice and your podcasts.

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Speaker 1: You have such a soothing but also incredibly engaging audio presence,

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Speaker 1: so I'm very excited.

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Speaker 2: Go on, go on, and now you can admire his

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Speaker 2: face too. We can see his face, so wow, God,

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Speaker 2: full package, no make up, no, no fill up.

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Speaker 1: I would never have known.

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Speaker 3: So.

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Speaker 1: One thing that is a fun fact about you as

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Speaker 1: the host of Snap Judgment and other shows including Heaven's

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Speaker 1: Gates and Spooked, is that you yourself grew up in

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Speaker 1: a cult.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I'm a cult baby, that's for sure.

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Speaker 1: Cult baby gang.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So you grew up in a group called the Worldwide

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Speaker 1: Church of God now called Grace Communion International. It was

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Speaker 1: founded by a man named Herbert w Armstrong, radio and

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Speaker 1: televangelist who built his following through religious broadcasts in the thirties,

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Speaker 1: forties and fifties. I actually listened to one this morning,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, I found it very fascinating because it was

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Speaker 1: like from nineteen forty one or something, and he was

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Speaker 1: talking about how Hitler was evil, and I was like, yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: if I heard that on the radio, I probably would

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Speaker 1: find that appealing. You know, can you please tell us

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Speaker 1: how your family came to be involved in this group.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting you were listening to something from night

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Speaker 3: teen forty one, because I'm not sure if you listen

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Speaker 3: to the whole thing, but he probably would have said

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Speaker 3: that Hitler's rise foretold the end of the world and

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Speaker 3: that Jesus was gonna come soon. That was something he

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Speaker 3: starts selling in the forties. He sold it again in

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Speaker 3: the fifties every so often the world was coming to

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Speaker 3: an end, and that he had a secret access to

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Speaker 3: unlock the Bible that no one else knew but him.

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Speaker 3: Herbert taught a very fundamentalless view of Christianity, and the

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Speaker 3: big thing was he would always say, it's prove all things.

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Speaker 3: Go see it if it's in the Bible yourself, and

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Speaker 3: growing up that's what we did. We're always studying the Bible.

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Speaker 3: In fact, as a kid, I spent a lot of

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Speaker 3: time memorizing the Bible. That's something you can only do

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Speaker 3: as a child. Yeah, adults can't really do that, but

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Speaker 3: you can do another kid memorize huge passages of the.

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Speaker 1: Bible, Like how much of the Bible are we talking here?

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Speaker 3: Chapters and passages, so much. I can't so many, so

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Speaker 3: much stuff. The church sponsored something called Bible Bowl. I'll

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Speaker 3: just have y'all know I was the Bible Bowl Champion

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Speaker 3: of Michigan.

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Speaker 2: We are talking to the Bible Bowl Champion, the.

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Speaker 3: Bible Bowl champion. You better believe it. What passage? What

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Speaker 3: did you say, Jeremiah ten, verse three? I know what?

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Speaker 3: It is.

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Speaker 4: So competitive about it.

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Speaker 3: It's so funny, too, right, competitive about not just reciting

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Speaker 3: passes the Bible. Everyone had to basically follow along with

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Speaker 3: the Bible when you went to church. If the pastor

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Speaker 3: says Zachariah is three sixteen, if you take longer than

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Speaker 3: ten seconds to turn there and your Bible, then that

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Speaker 3: means you need to study more because you should be

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Speaker 3: able to just flip to it right away.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 3: And I say all that because yes, it was a crazy,

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Speaker 3: Yes it was absurd, Yes it was all these things.

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Speaker 3: But I just same time, there was that element where

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Speaker 3: you had to go in and engulf yourself in this

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Speaker 3: book that you supposedly believed. It's been my experience that

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Speaker 3: since then a lot of people claim to believe that

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Speaker 3: book who've never read it.

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Speaker 4: For sure.

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Speaker 3: And as crazy as that crazy cult was, and it

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Speaker 3: was insanity. It was insanity squared. At least they read

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Speaker 3: the book.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, true.

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Speaker 3: And I think in reading the book, at least in

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Speaker 3: making that young generation that I was, I grew up

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Speaker 3: in the church and making us memorize it, it kind

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Speaker 3: of sowed the scenes of their own destruction because later on,

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Speaker 3: if you tell my group of teenagers that it says

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Speaker 3: so and so and so in the Bible, I know

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Speaker 3: it doesn't.

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Speaker 4: Yeah right where.

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Speaker 3: I don't see you show me that way. It says that,

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Speaker 3: And you're digging the hole in your own ship if

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Speaker 3: you do that, And that's what happened, and a lot

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Speaker 3: of people did. It's like prove all things. That's good

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Speaker 3: if you kind of have a oh a casual relationship

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Speaker 3: with the book. But once you get past that in

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Speaker 3: a mediary period, there's a lot of things that's going

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Speaker 3: to be hard to prove.

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Speaker 2: Right, were you memorizing the Old Testament and the New

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Speaker 2: Testament or just the New Testament?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, Old Testament and a New Testament. Okay, the

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Speaker 3: Old Testament is quoted one hundred and thirty seven times

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Speaker 3: in a New Testament. These books cannot be taken apart

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Speaker 3: from each other. They are one in the holes, what

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Speaker 3: was teaching them? But it is true. And you know,

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Speaker 3: I don't want to get too much into theology because

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Speaker 3: I've left obviously. I will just tell you this. When

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Speaker 3: you start looking at the book, the Old Testament and

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Speaker 3: the New Testament together are extraordinary documents. It's amazing that

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Speaker 3: they were preserved and that you have them. And then

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Speaker 3: you have this looking to the past, and you have

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Speaker 3: this idea of what people were thinking, what they were

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Speaker 3: grappling with, what they were wrestling with from a theological

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Speaker 3: from a political point of view, trying to create a

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Speaker 3: type of early history, and a sense of identity, whatever

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Speaker 3: you want to go on about. These are amazing books.

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Speaker 3: But my question was where'd they come from? Who wrote them?

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Speaker 3: Where did this thing come from? It wasn't I got

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Speaker 3: past the point, well, well God wrote it? How did

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Speaker 3: that work? When I was on my way out and

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Speaker 3: I'll get you a little bit later on when I

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Speaker 3: was on my way out from but when I was

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Speaker 3: on my way out, I asked my pastor that question.

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Speaker 3: So who wrote these books? Where did they come from?

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Speaker 3: And to his credit, he gave me a book It

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Speaker 3: was called Who wrote the Bible? And this is when

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Speaker 3: I was in my late teens, and I read that

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Speaker 3: book and I read it again and I was out, Wow,

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Speaker 3: it was kind of one of those things, and I

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Speaker 3: got to I should explain what I was out from

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Speaker 3: the Worldwide Church of God was an apocalyptic end of

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Speaker 3: day Jesus cult which white supremacy elements thrown in the

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Speaker 3: idea was that Herbert w Armstrong, who you mentioned, had

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Speaker 3: been given revelations directly by God that gave him special

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Speaker 3: understandings to unlock the kidden keys of the Bible, and

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Speaker 3: those hidden keys to his way of thinking were mainly prophetic,

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Speaker 3: and that he could tell that the end of days

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Speaker 3: was nine and he had special ability to read world

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Speaker 3: events and pair them with the Bible and be able

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Speaker 3: to come up with what's going about to happen. And

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Speaker 3: you better get your act together now. If you are

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Speaker 3: again a casual believer of the Bible, and you watch

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Speaker 3: world news and you hear somebody melding the two, that

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Speaker 3: could be very persuasive to somebody. Sure it says, here,

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Speaker 3: here's a beast power, and the beast power does this

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Speaker 3: is in that and it's in eastern Europe, And boy,

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Speaker 3: that looks like Hitler and this is what's going to happen,

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Speaker 3: because it's foretold in the Bible, and this, this, and that,

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Speaker 3: that's what we believe. But you go back further. Herbert

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Speaker 3: came from the Seventh Day Adventist tradition, and he also

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Speaker 3: was an admin. Yes, right, he's an admin. So when

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Speaker 3: he went through his own searching when he left, I

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Speaker 3: think probably got kicked out of the Seventh Day at

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Speaker 3: Venice organizations and he started searching and basically created his

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Speaker 3: own situation. Christian based culture generally gonna have somebody praying

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Speaker 3: overnight and sweating and wrestling with the truth or whatever

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Speaker 3: it is before God speaks to him. He has his

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Speaker 3: own story of that where he was filled with this

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Speaker 3: type of enlightenment, almost a Joseph Smith type story. I

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Speaker 3: was gonna say that, Yeah, this happens again and again

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Speaker 3: and again. But again he was an admin.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, do you think he believed it for real?

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Speaker 4: Or do you think he was just an admin?

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Speaker 3: It's such an interesting idea. A lot of the people

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Speaker 3: who I grew, well, we go back and forth. Did

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Speaker 3: he believe it for real? I still honestly don't know.

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Speaker 3: It got to be such madness. I'll say this, he

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Speaker 3: believed the money for real. He knew how to make

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Speaker 3: a pitch for real. He lived high on the hog

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Speaker 3: for real. He was one of the first sort of

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Speaker 3: people to justify buying an airplane for real.

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Speaker 1: An airplane, Wow, he had airplane money coming in. Well,

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Speaker 1: he was charging people thirty percent tithing.

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Speaker 3: Right at Oh yeah, the thirty percent that was an innovation.

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Speaker 3: But did he believe it? Did he believe it? I honestly,

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Speaker 3: I think that some people really love to hear themselves talk.

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Speaker 3: They can convince themselves of whatever it is. Sometimes this

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Speaker 3: stuff end up being so contradictory and ridiculous it's hard

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Speaker 3: to believe anyone believed it when you actually listen to

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Speaker 3: the words. But I think that maybe he did believe.

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Speaker 3: I think he was one of those people who it

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Speaker 3: didn't matter. He would make himself believe anything, and that

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Speaker 3: whatever he believed just happened to be for his own

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Speaker 3: benefit hery.

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Speaker 4: He was an ad man and customer.

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Speaker 3: Exactly, and if he needed to believe something else, we could.

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Speaker 4: Leave that too, right right, But yes, you.

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Speaker 3: Mentioned the thirty percent. That was an innovation of the

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Speaker 3: Worldwide Church of God. Lots of people know about tithing

300
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Speaker 3: but have you heard of the second time. We did

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Speaker 3: not celebrate Christmas, Easter, all those types of holidays that

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Speaker 3: most people who consider themsels from the Christian faith celebrate.

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Speaker 3: We celebrated Passover, Pentecost, the Day of Atonement, which was

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Speaker 3: a fasting day, which is essentially Kapor. This is again

305
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Speaker 3: like he was taken from a lot of religions. These

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Speaker 3: are oftentimes more associated with the Jewish faith. The Feast

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Speaker 3: of Tabernacles, the Last Great Day. These are our holidays

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Speaker 3: that nobody's ever heard of. And most of the people

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Speaker 3: who were drawn to this organization they didn't have a

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Speaker 3: lot of money. Was a rural community and no one

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Speaker 3: had a lot of money. But you had number one,

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Speaker 3: you had to tie. But because we didn't celebrate Christmas,

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Speaker 3: had that. The deal was, we had something different than Christmas,

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Speaker 3: better than Christmas. Yeah better, I said it.

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Speaker 1: Better than Christmas, better than Christmas.

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Speaker 3: It was called the Feast of Tabernacles. And so the

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Speaker 3: idea behind the Feast of Tabernacles is you save ten

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Speaker 3: percent of your income. In addition to the tie, save

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Speaker 3: another ten percent of your income, and you keep it

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Speaker 3: and you go every October on a seven day festival

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Speaker 3: where you were commanded to blow it, to spend hotels,

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Speaker 3: fancy dinners, whatever it may be. Because the idea is

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Speaker 3: that you are giving yourself a taste of the world tomorrow,

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Speaker 3: a taste of heaven on earth. Wow, go and you

325
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Speaker 3: blow it. So imagine a poor family like us now again,

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Speaker 3: I'll put you in my position for a little bit.

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Speaker 3: I'm poor. I live in the middle of nowhere, rural Michigan,

328
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Speaker 3: and I'm in some religion that nobody understands. I feel very,

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Speaker 3: very isolated, especially at school and stuff like that. We

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Speaker 3: don't celebrate birthdays. I'm always talking weird stuff. I'm an

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Speaker 3: outsider just by default almost every single thing I do.

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Speaker 3: Then they pulled me out of school in October because

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Speaker 3: we're going to the Feast of Tabernacles, which means we

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Speaker 3: load up our country Squire station wagon and we get

335
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Speaker 3: in we start driving to we call it the festival location,

336
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Speaker 3: which is different sites all over the country. The closest

337
00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:39,119
Speaker 3: one to where we are in Michigan was usually in

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Speaker 3: Wisconsin westcontin Dell's area. There's a big place in wescontin Dell's.

339
00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,879
Speaker 3: It's a resort community. So before you start driving, you

340
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Speaker 3: have to put a green sticker on your car that

341
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Speaker 3: comes directly from headquarters in Pasadena, California. That lets me

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Speaker 3: know that you have all privileges to go to this

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Speaker 3: festival or whatever it may be. You put that on

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Speaker 3: your car and you start driving now again in the

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Speaker 3: middle of nowhere, middle of nowhere, and start driving. Then

346
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Speaker 3: you got ten percent of your entire income for the

347
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Speaker 3: year in your pocket. My dad. Everybody's happy. Like nobody

348
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Speaker 3: ever asked me if I want to stop them putting

349
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Speaker 3: that downalds or something in the way that didn't come up.

350
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Speaker 3: Now y'all want to stop. Yeah, get some extra fry

351
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Speaker 3: we can. Yeah, we're balling up in this piece. We

352
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Speaker 3: want the cheese. Put some cheese on, some extra cheese.

353
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Speaker 3: We start riding. We start riding, and you're riding down

354
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Speaker 3: the street, down the road, down the highway, and it's

355
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,560
Speaker 3: like wait, wait, wait. You see it off in the distance.

356
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Speaker 3: There's another car and you think you see they got

357
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Speaker 3: a green sticker on their car too, And you try

358
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Speaker 3: to pull up beside them, and they got kids, and

359
00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,240
Speaker 3: you got kids from you're howking and wave them. You're

360
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Speaker 3: not alone anymore. There's another family with a green stick

361
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Speaker 3: and now y'all gonna ride together. In fact, you might

362
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Speaker 3: even pull off the side and have kids go back

363
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Speaker 3: and forth. And then y'all keep on rolling and you

364
00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,000
Speaker 3: see another green sticker and another, and they're closer. You

365
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,360
Speaker 3: get to the feast site, you're seeing dreensticker, dreenstickt dreenstick

366
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,399
Speaker 3: a green sticker. You're gone from being alone in the

367
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Speaker 3: middle of the wilderness to being part of this excited, crazy,

368
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,679
Speaker 3: happy plan of people who have got more money than

369
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Speaker 3: they know what to do with. And you get there.

370
00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,360
Speaker 3: You can stay in a hotel. I never stay no hotel.

371
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Speaker 3: I can stay in a hotel with a swimming pool,

372
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Speaker 3: what what? And everybody there, and you can only stay

373
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Speaker 3: at select hotels that man deals with. So everybody you

374
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Speaker 3: see that's at that hotel is part of your group,

375
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Speaker 3: every single person. You're not alone anymore. This is all

376
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,360
Speaker 3: the kids, aud the adults. Everybody is part of your group.

377
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,040
Speaker 3: Now go to Weisconsin Dallas. They have a big facility.

378
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Speaker 3: They could see ten thousand people in this facility. Everybody

379
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,280
Speaker 3: again is part of your thing. Now. Unfortunately, you got

380
00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:01,280
Speaker 3: to go to church twice the day during this time period,

381
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,840
Speaker 3: but the rest of the time is yours to go

382
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,480
Speaker 3: out and do your thing. Now it's off season too,

383
00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:11,639
Speaker 3: so Wisconsin does they're like thrilled in the middle October.

384
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Speaker 3: What all these people running around? That's great. Wh's good

385
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,800
Speaker 3: for us as well. Basically, if I saw somebody going

386
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,840
Speaker 3: into the Wax Museum, I see somebody getting some fudge there. Us,

387
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,480
Speaker 3: that's us, Them is us. Everywhere I go, it's just us.

388
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Speaker 3: That's how you spent that money. You spent that money

389
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Speaker 3: for that time period. Now, of course when you're there,

390
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:35,520
Speaker 3: they had something called number one, the tithe of the tithe,

391
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Speaker 3: so that ten percent you were supposed to put ten

392
00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,840
Speaker 3: percent of that and go to the church. And then

393
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Speaker 3: they had something called you got to do offerings, and

394
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Speaker 3: then you had excess tithe, which is like how much

395
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,920
Speaker 3: excess money? Have you ever had excess money? But if

396
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:55,720
Speaker 3: you did, you got to get out over there to

397
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,280
Speaker 3: them as well, put that in the basket and then

398
00:20:58,400 --> 00:20:59,560
Speaker 3: bring your broke asshole.

399
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Speaker 1: Wow. I mean, you did convince me that it's better

400
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,480
Speaker 1: than Christmas, other than the part where you go home

401
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:07,280
Speaker 1: broke at the end.

402
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:09,199
Speaker 4: Gave me two church things a day.

403
00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:13,719
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, well, I will say this as well. This

404
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:18,159
Speaker 3: was technology like never before heard in the seventies and

405
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,800
Speaker 3: the eighties. I'm a little kid, and there's like, you know,

406
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,440
Speaker 3: seven to ten thousand people in this facility, which is crazy.

407
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:31,360
Speaker 3: And then they have these white coded scientists people come

408
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,720
Speaker 3: up and they got all this technology and they got

409
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,240
Speaker 3: wires and cables and stuff. They would say, okay, everybody,

410
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,280
Speaker 3: get ready. They turn out all the lights and they

411
00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:44,879
Speaker 3: will project microwave transmission from Pasadena, California. So this is

412
00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,119
Speaker 3: back in the day, and you would see the church

413
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:53,359
Speaker 3: in Pasadena, which is the headquarters. Then like all good cults,

414
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:55,760
Speaker 3: by the way, are based in California.

415
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,520
Speaker 1: It's true.

416
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,080
Speaker 3: So the microwave transmition they're in Passing. And then they'll

417
00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 3: be like, all right, is London online? Is Florida online?

418
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:12,119
Speaker 3: Is Saskatchewan? You go around the world, you know, Tokyo Da,

419
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:18,479
Speaker 3: and everybody would lose their shit because we're like, I

420
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,600
Speaker 3: can't emphasize it enough. You always felt alone, but for

421
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,480
Speaker 3: this moment you were part of a community. It wasn't

422
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,080
Speaker 3: even just this ten thousand people you were with. It

423
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,240
Speaker 3: was people all around the world saying they can see

424
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:34,879
Speaker 3: the microwave transmission from Passing to California, and everybody was

425
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,639
Speaker 3: sing Everybody was sing and you felt like you were

426
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,119
Speaker 3: singing with people all around the world.

427
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,480
Speaker 4: Wow, I mean you were. It's beautiful in a way.

428
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, that must have been a powerful communal moment and

429
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,199
Speaker 1: a beautiful reprieve from your general loneliness. I mean, I

430
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:51,479
Speaker 1: totally get the appeal of that.

431
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was that, and that was I just say,

432
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 3: have to say, that's where our second time went. The

433
00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 3: third time, every three years, we were supposed to come

434
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,400
Speaker 3: up with another ten percent. Now again, this is ten

435
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 3: percent of your gross Like, this is pre tax I know.

436
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, like you guys get ten percent at the

437
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,640
Speaker 2: end of taxes and everything. I don't understand how anyone's

438
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 2: supposed to live, right.

439
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 3: Well, let's just say some people weren't exactly as exacting

440
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 3: about throwing that in as they could have been. People were,

441
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:25,399
Speaker 3: A lot of people were, A lot of people were not.

442
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 3: If we didn't do any tithing, we would still be broke.

443
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 3: So I don't know how in the world that was

444
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 3: gonna work for us.

445
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 1: We're in Michigan. Did you grow because I also grew

446
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 1: up in rural Michigan.

447
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm gonna do this right here, ladies and gentlemen.

448
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,359
Speaker 3: I'm showing the hand Michigan to show the hand to

449
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 3: each other, to show them where they grew up. But

450
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,160
Speaker 3: I was born in Detroit. I lived there twice five

451
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,160
Speaker 3: until we moved to the Thumb of Michigan. I moved here,

452
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:53,359
Speaker 3: Oh the Thumb, Kingston Caro, a near Bay City, this

453
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:58,400
Speaker 3: type of area. This is where I was a farmer, Marlette, Michigan. Okay,

454
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 3: it's a crazy story from there. Lived in the Midland

455
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,440
Speaker 3: area for a while Mount Pleasant, then went to high

456
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 3: school in the Grand Rapids area before going to University

457
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 3: of Michigan.

458
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 1: Oh As. I grew up an hour north of Grand

459
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 1: Rapids in a little town called Newego.

460
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 4: Do you know grand Haven, Lola, Grand Haven? No, because

461
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 4: that's where I grew up for a while. Wait, what.

462
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 1: An established this? Yeah, I was on a farm.

463
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:28,359
Speaker 4: Do you know where grand Haven is?

464
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 3: Glenn, of course I know where grand Haven is.

465
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 2: Wow, okay, all right, Yeah, you grew up in a farm, Lola.

466
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 1: I grew up on a farm.

467
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 4: Yeah.

468
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 1: Wow, Michigan unrelated to my cult experience. We just happened

469
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 1: to be on a farm before my cult experience. But yeah,

470
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 1: that's cool. Wow wow, look at us.

471
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,119
Speaker 3: Well then, Lola, we got more than our thought in

472
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 3: common good Lord, Yeah, I know very well where you

473
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,120
Speaker 3: grew up. Our cult that we meet in every week

474
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 3: was in Grand Rapids. It included your area.

475
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:01,159
Speaker 1: Oh so yeah, interesting because I was just a regular

476
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 1: Mormon when I was living in Michigan before, like pre cult,

477
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 1: when our church situation was weird, we had to go

478
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,880
Speaker 1: to Grand Rapids for our like Mormon church. So look

479
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,159
Speaker 1: at that. Curious. So there was this prophecy about nineteen

480
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 1: seventy five, but you keep saying late seventies, So did

481
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: you join after this prophecy year was already done?

482
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 3: I was like really tiny during then, so I missed

483
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 3: that kind of situation. I mean, I think that nineteen

484
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,639
Speaker 3: seventy five things what drew my mother in for the

485
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,400
Speaker 3: first place, Like, oh my god, nineteen seventy five, that's

486
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,119
Speaker 3: going to be the end. But then when nineteen seventy

487
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 3: five came and went, they stopped mentioning that. So every

488
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 3: church basically had a library of books that were written

489
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,160
Speaker 3: by Herbert w Armstrong that you could kind of check

490
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 3: out or whatever, and some of those books would disappear,

491
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 3: Like it was very very hard in the eighties to

492
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 3: find the nineteen seventy five and Prophecies book out of circulation, right,

493
00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 3: they took that outlation right, But thenbody would find it

494
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,360
Speaker 3: at home or something like that, that in some back

495
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,639
Speaker 3: room or something like that, and they get to, you know,

496
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 3: fussing at us about we gotta do right because of

497
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 3: prophecy and something like that, and they're like, what prophecy. Huh,

498
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 3: Well this nineteen seventy five and Prophecy, where did you

499
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 3: get that? Where do you get that book? That's that? Well,

500
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 3: they don't update it. They updated of whatever they need.

501
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:23,879
Speaker 4: My god, I.

502
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 3: Had new revelations something I don't know. I don't remember

503
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:32,199
Speaker 3: exact terminology, but I remember they did not appreciate teenagers

504
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 3: in the eighties taking out the nineteen seventy five booking

505
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,640
Speaker 3: Prophecy and waving that around. I know that for sure.

506
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: I am sure. So was there like oh JK wasn't then.

507
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: But it's going to happen soon.

508
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 3: This is what's crazy about it. Like you mentioned that

509
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 3: you heard something from nineteen forty one. They would call dates,

510
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 3: specifically the world's going to end such and such and

511
00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 3: such and such, nineteen forty one, nineteen forty five, fifty six, nineteen,

512
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 3: this is the net. I think nineteen seventy four in

513
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 3: Prophecy book was they finally learned a lesson. It said

514
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 3: soon instead of calling specific dates. I do remember this

515
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,879
Speaker 3: being in Midland, Michigan, which apparently all of us know

516
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 3: when I was a little kid. And I'm saying, Brethred,

517
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 3: if you think we're gonna make it through the end

518
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 3: of the eighties without seeing the return of the Lord

519
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 3: Jesus Christ, well you got another thing coming. So that

520
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 3: was an exact date. And I will say what's interesting

521
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 3: as well, it was like there were some people This

522
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 3: was not technically supported by official church doctrine, but there

523
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 3: were several respected brethren and lay ministers or whatever. I

524
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 3: remember going to one person's house. I don't know. I

525
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:58,959
Speaker 3: was trying to get out of this. I don't know

526
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 3: how they caught me in his basement. I was one

527
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,440
Speaker 3: of my buddy's dads, and he's got a chopboard and

528
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 3: he's taken us through. Okay, it's nineteen eighty whatever. And

529
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,879
Speaker 3: you will divide that by the year of completion, which

530
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 3: is six times the Tower of Babel and the sun spots,

531
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,919
Speaker 3: and you turn that upside down with the number of

532
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 3: pages in the original King James version of Bible. And

533
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 3: then you get to the end time is going to

534
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 3: be June seventeenth, nineteen eighty six something like that. We

535
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 3: had the date. He said, Okay, put that down, and

536
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 3: it's like any questions and I'm just like, man, you

537
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 3: gotta let me about this piece. I don't know what's

538
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 3: going on. Especially as young kids at the time, we

539
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 3: thought that was mad crazy. I was told as a

540
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 3: kid that I would not graduate high.

541
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 4: School because you'd be gone to heavens.

542
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 3: I'd be gone. Yeah, yeah, I'll be gone. Wouldn't be married,

543
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 3: I wouldn't have a family, I wouldn't do any of

544
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 3: that kind of stuff because that will just do with

545
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 3: it in the card for me.

546
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: And did you believe that, Like how fervent of a

547
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 1: believer were you as a kid?

548
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 3: I believe the general idea. I had a lot of

549
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 3: quibbles about specifics, and I had a lot of quibbles

550
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 3: about the racial situation there. I thought that they were

551
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 3: crazy racists, but I thought that the overall idea of

552
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 3: the Bible that they had that they were doing was right.

553
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 3: I did believe that.

554
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: Did you know any other black families in this church? Reason?

555
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 3: Only there were a couple. This is crazy. I'm going

556
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 3: to tell you something. This is the deal. I'm a

557
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 3: young man, you know, doing what young men do. The

558
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 3: problem was like in our area there were no black girls,

559
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 3: and the inter racial dating and fragtnization like that was forbidden.

560
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 3: It was evil or whatever. And I thought, you know, hey,

561
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 3: I like sisters just fine, but there aren't any of

562
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 3: them over here. I don't know what y'all want me

563
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 3: to do. Right, It's really sucked, It really really sucked.

564
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 3: But there's a Lanting church, and that Lanting church they

565
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 3: had one black girl there and so I was supposed

566
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 3: to loh, there's one for you. Great.

567
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 4: Wow.

568
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 3: She was actually very cute, very cool. But she was

569
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 3: in the same fix, right, But I think her father

570
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 3: was white and it was they coming before they got

571
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 3: into the church or something like that, and I didn't

572
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 3: know any of that stuff. She was black. To me,

573
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 3: it's like cool, Well, you know, I don't know leader,

574
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 3: but she put a backstage past just what she did.

575
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 3: So there was a secret policy for people who are

576
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 3: they called an indeterminate racial classification. And what you could

577
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 3: do is they call it the look see administrative review,

578
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 3: which meant that you would send a picture into headquarters

579
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 3: in passing to California and they would look and they

580
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 3: would see how to classify You're sorry.

581
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 4: Wow.

582
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 3: And so what she did was she got a picture

583
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 3: of her, put on a lot of extra flash in

584
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 3: the picture, and she sent it in to pass through

585
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 3: to California. And they came back and they said, for

586
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 3: all privileges and rights, you are now Caucasian and this

587
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 3: is not. And so the one black girl in the

588
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 3: area she got reclassified by look si wow. I say

589
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 3: all that to say, so I was out of lucky.

590
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 3: I was out of luck right now. I say, I'll

591
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 3: have to say this. I'll just fast forward little bit.

592
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 3: We'll get back to it. But I fast for a

593
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 3: little bit. I left the organization. I lived in Japan

594
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 3: for a long time, lived in Malaysia, went to law

595
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 3: school at University of Michigan. And my second year of

596
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 3: law school, I was having a party for grad students

597
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 3: of color at my place. And it was just a

598
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 3: dumb excuse to meet women, but it worked out great.

599
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 3: So people start filing in their filing and filing in,

600
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 3: and I see this beautiful black girl, So I go

601
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 3: over it. I started talking to her, and I said,

602
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 3: wait a minute, wait minute, Well I know you, and

603
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 3: she said like that is not a very good line.

604
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 3: You know, you to game a little bit. And I

605
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 3: was like, I'm real, I'm real. And then it hit

606
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 3: me and then I sang a hymno from our church,

607
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 3: Last and Happy, and she looked at me and it

608
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 3: was her this look. See no, Well yeah, my god, man,

609
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 3: I might forget a name, but I don't forget a face.

610
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 4: Did you guys talk about it?

611
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:43,479
Speaker 3: We did. We laughed ourselves silly that night. Yeah, And

612
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 3: I told her how much I didn't appreciate those tricks

613
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 3: she was pulling back in the day, and she's like,

614
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 3: what do I suppose to do? I don't want to

615
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 3: relitigate the past.

616
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 4: But that's funny.

617
00:32:57,800 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 3: It was hilarious.

618
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: She gained the system. That's kind of great. But what

619
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: a crazy premise like for you to even be in

620
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 1: this group? I mean like, yeah, what was that?

621
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 2: Like?

622
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 1: How did you feel about that?

623
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 3: I advise all the kids I see these days don't

624
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 3: grow up in a colt.

625
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 4: We do too, Yeah, a strong recregnation that we have.

626
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: Also, don't join one as an adult. You know, that's

627
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 1: also not great.

628
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 3: Coming go the other way. Yeah, it was tough. It

629
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 3: was difficult, I especially, you know, the ratifications of a

630
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 3: lot of it. We cut off my family, extended family,

631
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 3: my cousins, and that really hurt and it still hurts

632
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 3: that I have a deeper gulf with them than I

633
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 3: should because of that cult stuff. I had to always

634
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 3: avoid them or sometimes we would go for almost a

635
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 3: year without having contact with them because the church said to.

636
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 3: And that was just hurtful.

637
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 4: It sucks.

638
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: Did that apply to you like at school as well,

639
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 1: where you're not supposed to like hang out with outsider

640
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 1: kids or was this just a family thing?

641
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 3: No, you could. I just had a bunch of rules

642
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 3: that basically made it, and people didn't want to hang

643
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 3: out with me. I mean, it was hard to classify.

644
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:16,720
Speaker 3: I'm already in rule Michigan. I'm black, I'm a crazy farmer.

645
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 3: We're broke.

646
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 2: You have the entire Bible memorized.

647
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 3: I got to please. I'm memorizing the Bible. I'm telling

648
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 3: kids the truth about Santa Claus.

649
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 4: Me too. That's my problem too.

650
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 3: But like if you have a birthday party, I can't participate.

651
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 3: I gotta go stand in the hall of while everybody's

652
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 3: eating cake. You're creating a social outcast. Put just one

653
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 3: of those things and you're gonna have trouble. Had a

654
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 3: bunch of stuff going on. It was tough. It was

655
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 3: just really really tough. But I did have friends at

656
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 3: the church. We spent a lot of time together. There

657
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 3: wasn't like we're in a compound situation. But because you

658
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 3: meet so much, Like if you're meeting four five times

659
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 3: a week, you might as well be in a compound, right,

660
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 3: you know, that's kind of what you do. I went

661
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 3: to regular school, but it was just a lot. It

662
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 3: was a lot. Yeah.

663
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: I mean, man, being a kid is hard enough. Making

664
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,919
Speaker 1: friends is hard enough as it is, just like being

665
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: someone who does fit in in theory.

666
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 2: I added, and the special little thing of telling everybody

667
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 2: I met who was wearing makeup or anything that they

668
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:22,399
Speaker 2: were going to hell.

669
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 4: So that was a fun little.

670
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, oh yeah. I would talk about how hot

671
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 3: the fire was gonna be, you know that type of stuff.

672
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 4: Man, same, yeah.

673
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 1: See, I just had those thoughts privately. I knew not

674
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 1: to alienate the children at school.

675
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 4: Well for you, Lola, I wish I would have known.

676
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, so did you ever actually meet Herbert or No?

677
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,399
Speaker 3: I did a couple of times. He would come through

678
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,439
Speaker 3: and be a big deal and we kind of get

679
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 3: in a line and we go and meet him and

680
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 3: we kind of stand in the line. He wrote a

681
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 3: book almost a year, whatever new book it was, and

682
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 3: oftentimes he would fly around and hand out these books

683
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 3: like prizes to the brethren. And I met him a

684
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:15,839
Speaker 3: couple times. Like I mean, when I think met him,

685
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 3: I was in a line and I saw him.

686
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 1: Or something like that, or his hand like a book signing.

687
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, book signing, that's right, was a book signing. That's

688
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:25,399
Speaker 3: not what we called it, but yeah, something like that.

689
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 1: Did he seem like special to you? Like what did

690
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:29,399
Speaker 1: you think?

691
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 3: But I gave you that. I was a very little

692
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,720
Speaker 3: kid when I saw him, and they were like, look,

693
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 3: don't pull any of your tricks. We get up to

694
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 3: meet this great man. You know, you stand up straight,

695
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 3: you look them in the eye, and you're meeting an apostle,

696
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 3: and this is a big deal. You're meeting an apostle, the.

697
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: Last Apostle, right, that's what he would call him.

698
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 3: The last Apostle.

699
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 2: Yes, Wow, there's two witnesses that are left correct and

700
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:54,919
Speaker 2: he's one of them.

701
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 3: Well, that was the whole deal that you notice stuff, man,

702
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 3: this is what I'm talking about. So the Bible speaks

703
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,359
Speaker 3: of the end time being two witnesses that are going

704
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 3: to preach until the final days. The old deal was

705
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 3: that he would see that he was probably one of

706
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 3: the witnesses, but we didn't know who the second one was.

707
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 3: And that was my aspiration. I thought, if I got

708
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 3: these Bible verses right, and I did the right thing

709
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 3: and got right with Jesus, I would be the second

710
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 3: witness because oh wow, he's old anyway, he was always

711
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,839
Speaker 3: old from from the fact that he's always been old

712
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 3: as hell. So I thought, you know, maybe I could

713
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 3: slide in. They're gonna need somebody younger and charismatic and

714
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 3: a broad wouldn't hurt, maybe, you know, to kind of

715
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:40,240
Speaker 3: help get that second witness.

716
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 2: So you had that like kind of on your shoulders, like, oh,

717
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:44,800
Speaker 2: I'm going to be the second.

718
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 3: It was an aspiration, Yeah, it was an aspiration. I

719
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 3: didn't see anybody else that seemed to fit the bill,

720
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 3: so I thought maybe I could do it.

721
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: I've heard you talk on other podcasts about how you

722
00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,360
Speaker 1: you're dealing with all this stuff and all this isolation,

723
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 1: but at the same time, you felt really special. And

724
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: that's something that I can certainly relate to because at

725
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 1: one point in time, I thought that my mom and

726
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,320
Speaker 1: I were the only two people on earth who knew

727
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 1: about this prophet and this second coming that was happening.

728
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 3: Wow.

729
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, can you talk about that special feeling? And I

730
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 1: mean clearly you felt special if you thought you were

731
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 1: going to be potentially the second Abustle are the second Witness.

732
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 3: Yeah. Wow, I really did feel like I guess said

733
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 3: I had a lot of issues with various things, but

734
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,320
Speaker 3: I thought that we were being revealed a special truth

735
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 3: that no one else knew because in the Bible, the

736
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 3: End Time talks about saving one hundred and forty four

737
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,919
Speaker 3: thousand people who would go and meet Jesus in the end,

738
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 3: And one hundred and forty four thousand people isn't a

739
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 3: lot of people. No, And you look around and you

740
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 3: see all these people, they're all gonna burn. They're all

741
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 3: gonna burn in this tribulation that's coming. Our deal was

742
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,399
Speaker 3: we thought that this this big war was imminent and

743
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 3: that we were gonna be wisked off to a place

744
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:09,359
Speaker 3: of safety. That people speculated it was Petra that we're

745
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 3: gonna go to Petra for some reason and live in

746
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,919
Speaker 3: a cave for three and a half years, and then

747
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 3: Jesus was gonna come as an aside. Let me just

748
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 3: just say this. When we were living in the Grand

749
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 3: Rapids area at one point, this is rare in my household.

750
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 3: There was just nobody there. No one was at my house.

751
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 3: And my little brother was in the bed taking a

752
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:30,800
Speaker 3: nap in the middle of the afternoon, like four in

753
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,280
Speaker 3: the afternoon something like that, and it was my big chance.

754
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 3: He's a year younger than me. So I went downstairs

755
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 3: and I started screaming, you gotta go to the seven

756
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 3: eleven because everybody's going to the place of safety and

757
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 3: you got to get there right now and meet Jesus warriors.

758
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 3: They're gonna take you to Petra. I'll meet you there,

759
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 3: just waiting a parking lot at seven eleven. So he

760
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 3: wakes it out of the sleep and he takes his

761
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 3: bike and he goes off to wait at the eleven

762
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 3: and it gets to be dinner time, and my mom

763
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 3: and dad asked me, like, where's your brother at I

764
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 3: don't know. When he came back. He was hot. He

765
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 3: was hot.

766
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 4: That prank has every layer on it.

767
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 2: It's like, you know, just every single layer that a

768
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 2: prank could hide, so mean.

769
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 3: So crazy. Anyway, Yes, I felt special, I felt chosen.

770
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 3: I felt sorry for people who didn't have a special knowledge.

771
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 3: You know, I really did. And I remember too when

772
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 3: I had left organization. When you first leave it, I

773
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 3: still think that fire is going to rain down from

774
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 3: heaven for me or what it may be. But I

775
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 3: tried to escape and I ended up getting this fellowship

776
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 3: to go study in Asia. I was living in Japan.

777
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 3: It's this area that had never seen any foreigners really,

778
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 3: and my Japanese is the time, basically non existent. And

779
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 3: I'm trying to ask me what I believed and what

780
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 3: my religion was, and I'm trying to explain it in

781
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 3: Japanese to them, and they would laugh and laugh and laugh.

782
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 3: I remember me at bars and I'm listening to myself

783
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:19,359
Speaker 3: speak like a two year older about what my beliefs are,

784
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 3: and I'm laughing at myself because it sounds so freaking stupid,

785
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 3: but it was the truth. I will be forever grateful

786
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 3: for that experience. I think that trying to explain what

787
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:35,759
Speaker 3: you really believe in a different language, it just gives

788
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 3: you a slightly different perspective on what the words coming

789
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 3: out of your mouth, and you're like, what, what did

790
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 3: I just say? That don't make any kind of sense?

791
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 1: Did you tell them you thought that the end was

792
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:48,839
Speaker 1: coming at any more?

793
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 3: I probably did. But we were near the end times

794
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 3: and this book had the prophecies that foretold what we're

795
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 3: going through right now, and I probably said a lot

796
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 3: of things that were baffling me, that were literally baffling

797
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 3: me even as I came out of my mouth. Wow.

798
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 3: But the crazy thing is that, yes, I felt special

799
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 3: coming up, But even when I abandoned that belief system,

800
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 3: I felt like I was Harry Potter and everybody else

801
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 3: was a muggle, right, I really did. I felt like

802
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 3: I had the force even after I abandoned that belief system,

803
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 3: that feeling didn't necessarily go away for good or ill.

804
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 3: And my current sort of model of the world of

805
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:39,760
Speaker 3: the universe, that feeling makes no sense. It really doesn't. Yeah,

806
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:40,919
Speaker 3: but there it is, right.

807
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I relate to that so hard. Not to

808
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: shout out my own writing, but I wrote about my

809
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 1: cult experience five years ago or something, and it specifically

810
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 1: talks about the feeling of being special and how once

811
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,879
Speaker 1: I no longer had those beliefs, I needed to find

812
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 1: some other outlet for my feelings, and so I pursued

813
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 1: music full time because I was like, well, I'm clearly

814
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:06,439
Speaker 1: special in some way and have to make my mark

815
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 1: on the world. And if it's not because I'm chosen

816
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 1: to save the world, it's going to be through my

817
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 1: music or whatever. You know, totally totally get that. Do

818
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:14,840
Speaker 1: you have that, Megan?

819
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I don't know in my mind.

820
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 2: I think like everybody probably feels a little bit like

821
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,280
Speaker 2: that from some different way in childhood.

822
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 4: They you know, like I'm the best at this, I'm this,

823
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 4: I'm that.

824
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 2: I don't know, but definitely we have an exaggerated version

825
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 2: of that. I'm sure I feel very separate from the

826
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:33,239
Speaker 2: rest of the world for sure.

827
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know it's true, and well, especially in LA

828
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 1: probably a lot of Yeah, I feel.

829
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 4: Exactly specially that's probably my reference.

830
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Well, Glenn, can you tell us about that

831
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:46,839
Speaker 1: process of leaving? So you read this book? Who wrote

832
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 1: the Bible? And what were the revelations that you had

833
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,279
Speaker 1: and how long did that process take and what was

834
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 1: going on?

835
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, I read the book and knew that This wasn't

836
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 3: really for me, but the people I was still close

837
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:03,839
Speaker 3: to with my friends that were in that organization, those

838
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 3: are my people, and I didn't want to leave them.

839
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 3: And more importantly, I guess in a different way, if

840
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 3: you leave the church, everyone is obligated to disfellowship you,

841
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:16,319
Speaker 3: which means basically shun you and not talk to you

842
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 3: and disassociate with you. I didn't want that to happen

843
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:22,720
Speaker 3: to me, but I really didn't necessarily wanted to happen

844
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 3: to them. That process is just so hard and jarren

845
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 3: and weird and crazy and hurtful, and a few of

846
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 3: us in the past when we're oh, you don't talk

847
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 3: to them anymore or something like that, we wouldn't do it.

848
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 3: That's one of the things where we would try to

849
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:42,399
Speaker 3: not go along with the program are But it's hard

850
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:46,399
Speaker 3: to say to someone that you've grown up with since

851
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,800
Speaker 3: the little kid, now you're supposed to just fellowship me.

852
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 3: I'm not not part of that thing anymore. It sounds

853
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 3: weird because I was almost ready for it, But it's like,

854
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 3: do you want to impose that on somebody else? Because

855
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 3: when you leave, it's not just you leave it and

856
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 3: you do that to your family, and it's just a

857
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 3: ramifications about that that happened. At the age I was

858
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 3: when it was happening, was in my late teens. You're

859
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 3: supposed to get baptized. Everybody got baptized. I didn't do that.

860
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 3: And I kept on asking me when I'm gonna be back, Oh,

861
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:19,360
Speaker 3: you know, and don't think about that. That's interesting anyway,

862
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 3: what's for lunch service situation? I go back again to

863
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:25,720
Speaker 3: that whole going to Japan thing I had left again.

864
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 3: It hurt people, and I remember I was sure. I

865
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 3: was absolutely sure this is the right thing to do.

866
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 3: But when I remember when I told people that I

867
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:35,840
Speaker 3: was doing it, I felt the sky was going to

868
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:37,320
Speaker 3: open up and rain down.

869
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 1: Fire, meaning leaving the church or leaving for Japan.

870
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 3: Leaving the church, leaving the church. But then when I

871
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 3: did go to Japan, I flew into Tokyo, got on

872
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 3: a train, took a bus, another train, TAXI got to

873
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 3: my new place where there's a thunderstorm going on out there.

874
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 3: I don't know the city I'm in. I've never been

875
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 3: there before. I don't speak a word of the language.

876
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 3: I don't even know how to use a phone in Japan.

877
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:07,359
Speaker 3: My parents don't know what city I'm in. But I

878
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 3: go to my new apartment and the phone is ringing.

879
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 3: The phone is ringing, I'll surprise somebody. I pick it up.

880
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:16,400
Speaker 3: I was like hello, and I'm back to someone to

881
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,800
Speaker 3: be surprised, the wrong number whatever, And they're like, hello,

882
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:22,479
Speaker 3: this is so and so from the Blobi Church of God.

883
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,239
Speaker 3: And we heard you was in Japan right now. I

884
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:27,439
Speaker 3: want to know that. You know, we have meetings duch

885
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 3: and such, down and such and such. I was like,

886
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 3: there's a bad connection. I can't really hear what you're saying.

887
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 3: But click, Yeah, that happen. How they got I couldn't

888
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 3: do it. I don't know. Nobody knew where I was.

889
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 3: I didn't know where I was.

890
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,400
Speaker 1: WHOA that is creepy.

891
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 3: Yep.

892
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 4: That's like stocking you.

893
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 3: You got to get that money some kind of way.

894
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 3: You gotta have the systems in place.

895
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:59,319
Speaker 1: How do you even do that before the internet? It

896
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:00,879
Speaker 1: doesn't even brain.

897
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 3: This is what I will say. Let me leave you

898
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 3: with this. When I first started Snamp Judgment. If people

899
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 3: don't know, Snamp Judgment is a public radio show. It's

900
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 3: a stage show. We've done some television work. This is

901
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 3: a decade ago. We want to be Really The time

902
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 3: award was multimedia want to be Really Crazy Multimedia. It

903
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 3: was built into the DNA of the launch. There was

904
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 3: a magazine, which is really dumb. We didn't want anyone

905
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:25,319
Speaker 3: to see that part, but we had to do it

906
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 3: for the grand all this stuff. But when I was

907
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 3: initially pulling together the initial business plan for it, our

908
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:36,799
Speaker 3: initial funder was a corporation for public broadcasting, and somebody said, well,

909
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 3: this is a lot of stuff. We wanted to do

910
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 3: some work and see if there's any other people who've

911
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 3: kind of combined the same sort of multimedia bing into

912
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 3: one unit that you've done before. And somebody came and said, well,

913
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 3: there's this guy, Herbert w Armstrong who did something like this.

914
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 3: I'm just like, as fast as you run, as far

915
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 3: as you run, you end up right back where you started.

916
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 3: Almost lost my life mind. Someone came out here with

917
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 3: just herbd w Armstrong stuff. Have you ever heard of

918
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 3: a Herbert w Armstrong? Yes, I heard him. I don't

919
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:11,840
Speaker 3: want to do that. What was interesting about leaving in

920
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 3: the first place is when you do leave. I grew

921
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 3: up in this crazy organization, and when I was leaving,

922
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 3: I felt stupid, I felt tricked, I felt angry, I

923
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:26,720
Speaker 3: felt like I had wasted my youth, and I felt

924
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 3: all those things. And I felt as well that the

925
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 3: only thing I really knew anything about was how to

926
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,399
Speaker 3: run a cult, how to be in a cult. That's

927
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 3: what I knew. Yeah, I didn't want to do.

928
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 1: That, but so why Yeah I didn't.

929
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 3: There's enough cause I didn't want to do that. But

930
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 3: that was where the whole storytelling evolved from. I realized

931
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 3: I did learn something from those clowns. I was trying

932
00:48:55,000 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 3: to find a positive takeaway from my time with them.

933
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 3: The only thing that kept us in those seats all

934
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:05,920
Speaker 3: those many years listening to all that crazy stuff was

935
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 3: a collective sense of story, a shared story. And so

936
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 3: I know firsthand how important narrative is. A narrative can

937
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 3: make you do the most ridiculous thing. A narrative can

938
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:20,839
Speaker 3: make you give away thirty percent of your income even

939
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 3: though you're broke. A narrative can think you think that

940
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:25,879
Speaker 3: the world's gonna end next week. And a narrative can

941
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 3: make you come back to a church even though they

942
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 3: said Jesus is gonna be there last week and he

943
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 3: didn't show up. We can make you come back again

944
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 3: the next week after that and the next week after that.

945
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 3: Narratives and a shared story is maybe the most powerful

946
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 3: thing of all. And so I think that they really

947
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,760
Speaker 3: did give me something like we're all on this line.

948
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:50,760
Speaker 3: People oftentimes think all those culties are crazy. I wouldn't

949
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 3: join no code. I wouldn't do that, and maybe you wouldn't.

950
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 3: Maybe you would. But honestly, I don't see them as

951
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 3: those other is that oftentimes they're depicted up at the

952
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:06,320
Speaker 3: media or wherever. I know that they're regular people. Often

953
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 3: sometimes they're really good people who have a desire to

954
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:15,879
Speaker 3: follow their convictions, and that's sometimes twisted in turn by

955
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:18,919
Speaker 3: a charlatan in a certain way. And it's a shame

956
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,359
Speaker 3: to see someone who with a good heart have that

957
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 3: turn on them, have that very sense of search and

958
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:29,200
Speaker 3: seeking that they have turn on them. I g it's

959
00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 3: a real evil thing to do to somebody. I think

960
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:34,759
Speaker 3: it's a real a wondrous type of evil. Yeah, And

961
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:37,520
Speaker 3: instead of being I guess mad in the same way,

962
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:42,760
Speaker 3: I'm grateful that my background is such that I don't

963
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:48,439
Speaker 3: have to utter those people. And hopefully if you meet

964
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 3: someone where they are, you can lead them away from

965
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:54,240
Speaker 3: some of this stuff, and at least that was my thought.

966
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 3: I would just say this, People want to make fun

967
00:50:56,600 --> 00:51:00,040
Speaker 3: of religious cults or whatever, but we just had a

968
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 3: national cult, you know, wanted to desecrate the Capitol building,

969
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 3: run around crazy doing the stuff. I would say that

970
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 3: the cult I grew up in was far less pernicious

971
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:16,279
Speaker 3: than this national cult that we've just been experiencing. And

972
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 3: nothing that we believe was anything more absurd than anything

973
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:23,919
Speaker 3: that came out of these people. As you said, tell

974
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:28,399
Speaker 3: somebody a climate change doesn't exist, and the immigrants all

975
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:31,280
Speaker 3: want to come and kill you, and this andette, what's

976
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:35,279
Speaker 3: more pernicious and who's really in a cult? And it's

977
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:39,680
Speaker 3: scary to see the same techniques that were used in

978
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 3: that cult be used in our national political dialogue as well.

979
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:45,800
Speaker 3: Because I've been gone for so long, I thought obviously

980
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:47,959
Speaker 3: was in a small little thing off in the middle

981
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 3: of nowhere. That's not how the world works, That's not

982
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:55,720
Speaker 3: how things really go down. Well guess what it is anyway,

983
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 3: that's what I think about stuff.

984
00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 4: Damn, that's amazing.

985
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, we'll let you go soon, But where

986
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 2: did you land on your beliefs?

987
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 4: Can I ask you that.

988
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 3: I'm a born again agnostic. We see so little of

989
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 3: what is out there. I think it's so ridiculous for

990
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 3: me to start saying how the universe is structured. Our

991
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 3: galaxy is just a spect on aspect on aspect, and

992
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:27,239
Speaker 3: I'm talking about the way the world works and what

993
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 3: God did this, this, and that. I'm gonna have to

994
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:34,400
Speaker 3: pass on all that and just say, can I treat

995
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 3: people with respect when I'm here and hopefully have a

996
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 3: positive impact. I know I got this, I got this life.

997
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 3: I don't know about any all the rest of that stuff,

998
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:46,239
Speaker 3: and so I can only do the best I came

999
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:48,840
Speaker 3: with this. I didn't think that was enough when I

1000
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:50,800
Speaker 3: was coming up, and now I know that it's more

1001
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:54,400
Speaker 3: than enough. It's more than I can possibly do anything.

1002
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 3: I mean, God, everybody won't see themselves as a hero

1003
00:52:57,719 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 3: or this, this, and that. I fall short of my

1004
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 3: own deal of myself every single day. Yeah, So I

1005
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:08,239
Speaker 3: got enough to do without sitting in a basement talking

1006
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:09,240
Speaker 3: about the end times.

1007
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 1: Yeah right, we're sitting in a basement talking about what

1008
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:16,840
Speaker 1: you know isn't true, because that can be equally religious.

1009
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:19,800
Speaker 3: Right, all the smugness of the atheistics, who I probably

1010
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:23,839
Speaker 3: caunt myself more towards I was very fortunate to live

1011
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 3: around the world, and I know this. What you believe

1012
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 3: is the least important thing about a person. What you do,

1013
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 3: that's what really people believe, all kinds of stuff. Whatever

1014
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 3: you want to believe that, we're going to, you know,

1015
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 3: get in the UFOs and all this kind of stuff.

1016
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 3: What are you doing? Whatever it is, you're compelled to

1017
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,360
Speaker 3: improve this world. There is nothing that doesn't need to

1018
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 3: be done. You want to make more drinking water, we

1019
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:52,399
Speaker 3: need that. You want to save cats, We need people

1020
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 3: to do that. Let kids, We need people to do that,

1021
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 3: whatever it is, and you will never run out of

1022
00:53:56,680 --> 00:53:59,760
Speaker 3: stuff to do that thing. So what are we arguing about?

1023
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:00,360
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1024
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 1: Agreed, Yes, yeah, I feel like I'm in church.

1025
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 4: We're in church. Preach.

1026
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:09,880
Speaker 3: If you turn when your handles, would be pleased to

1027
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:10,880
Speaker 3: pay thirty three?

1028
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 4: Do we owe you all of our money? That's what

1029
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:13,799
Speaker 4: I need.

1030
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:15,480
Speaker 1: Thirty coming right up.

1031
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 3: That's what it says. You can read it yourself, rather

1032
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:21,160
Speaker 3: you can really just I don't want to read it

1033
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:25,440
Speaker 3: for you, but please I like the time that jingles.

1034
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 3: But a lot of current faults.

1035
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:30,600
Speaker 2: Oh man, this has been such a pleasure.

1036
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much for talking to us, Glynn.

1037
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:36,280
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me on the show. I really

1038
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:40,640
Speaker 3: appreciate it. I really appreciate my community of cultings. Whatever

1039
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:43,400
Speaker 3: we can get together and share some some laughs. I

1040
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:46,280
Speaker 3: always appreciate it because we can speak in full speed

1041
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:46,879
Speaker 3: to each other.

1042
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:54,399
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, that was great. I'm so happy we got him.

1043
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 1: Thank you, Glynn. He's so cool, So cool, Megan, So

1044
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 1: what do you think would you join? I mean, you know,

1045
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 1: Glenn was born into it, so it's a bit of

1046
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:07,760
Speaker 1: a different situation. Would you join the Worldwide Church of God?

1047
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:08,360
Speaker 1: Do you think?

1048
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:09,960
Speaker 4: No? I would not.

1049
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:13,319
Speaker 2: It involves way too many things I don't like, like

1050
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 2: giving all my money to people that aren't me, And.

1051
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 1: But don't all cults make you do that though, I

1052
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:23,720
Speaker 1: feel like that's just sort of a built in true

1053
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:27,120
Speaker 1: But they think really took a lot. They did, although

1054
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:30,120
Speaker 1: look at Hoy, he gave them like four million dollars

1055
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:30,719
Speaker 1: or what I know.

1056
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 2: I know, but Hoight had money, and Hoy was completely

1057
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:37,760
Speaker 2: exploited and so unfair.

1058
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 4: But to be like a family on.

1059
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 2: A farm giving your like money away is a whole

1060
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 2: different beast in my mind. So I don't know that

1061
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:51,680
Speaker 2: that's fucked up, And I would be so mad if

1062
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 2: I was a kid and my parents were like giving

1063
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:58,000
Speaker 2: money that we needed to eat to this religion.

1064
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 1: Well, the caveat that I will offer to that is

1065
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:06,600
Speaker 1: that many religions require a percentage of your income as tithing. Absolutely,

1066
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:11,280
Speaker 1: Mormonism requires ten percent of your gross income as well

1067
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:14,240
Speaker 1: as tithing. Such a strange setup to have ten percent

1068
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:17,320
Speaker 1: of it be for your own like fun. That's something

1069
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 1: I've never heard of, like ever in theory. That's like

1070
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:23,640
Speaker 1: kind of a fun idea, like, oh, you know, you

1071
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:26,799
Speaker 1: should devote a certain percentage of your income or your

1072
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:30,400
Speaker 1: life to like leisure and you know, self care or whatever.

1073
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:35,359
Speaker 1: Like there's something interesting in that idea. But as a requirement,

1074
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:38,359
Speaker 1: not so much. It's more like, oh, if you want

1075
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:40,600
Speaker 1: to like carve out space in your life to make

1076
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 1: sure it's not all about work, you know, But struggling

1077
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:47,760
Speaker 1: families living in poverty, very very different story.

1078
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:50,319
Speaker 4: Completely. It made me really sad that they had to

1079
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:50,640
Speaker 4: do that.

1080
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:53,520
Speaker 2: And everybody, like you said, everybody we've talked to, has

1081
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:56,399
Speaker 2: been exploited horrifically and it.

1082
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:57,319
Speaker 4: Just breaks your heart.

1083
00:56:57,520 --> 00:57:02,240
Speaker 2: So no, didn't like it involve like wigs and magic

1084
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:03,520
Speaker 2: and all that stuff.

1085
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:08,439
Speaker 1: So I'm out no nudity, no right out the rituals.

1086
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:12,640
Speaker 2: Exactly, so it's not for me, but uh what a story.

1087
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 1: Indeed, Well, I guess we'll just leave it at that

1088
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 1: for this week, don't you think?

1089
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:21,200
Speaker 2: I think that might be all we can do. Thank

1090
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:23,919
Speaker 2: you for listening to trust me, have a wonderful week,

1091
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 2: and remember to follow your gut, watch out for a.

1092
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:32,920
Speaker 1: Flags, and never never ever trust me. Bye bye.