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Speaker 1: A warning.

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Speaker 2: This episode contains depictions of violence and conversations about suicide

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Speaker 2: that may be disturbing and triggering for some listeners. If

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Speaker 2: you are struggling with suicidal thoughts, please fast forward to

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Speaker 2: the end of this episode to find out where help

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Speaker 2: is available.

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Speaker 3: To me, Kelly's story makes the most sense.

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Speaker 2: With no physical evidence tying anyone to the murder of Anastasia.

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Speaker 2: Does it all come down to who can we most believe?

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Speaker 4: She stands by her story still and it's twenty six

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Speaker 4: years later, you know, I.

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Speaker 3: Don't see anything that she gained.

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Speaker 5: She could have just as easily said justin did it,

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Speaker 5: And I mean she did, like stick with that story

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Speaker 5: and Byron could have said that too.

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Speaker 2: I'm Leah Rothman. This is the Real Killer. Episode twelve.

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Speaker 2: Two Sisters and the Alibi. So far this season, we

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Speaker 2: have heard from Byron Case, his legal team, his mom, Evelyn,

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Speaker 2: and others. We've also heard from Kelly Moffatt's friend Angie,

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Speaker 2: the former Jackson County prosecutor, Jean Peters Baker, and Anastasia's

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Speaker 2: sisters Fran and Emma. In episode three, Fran and Emma

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Speaker 2: shared some heartfelt stories about their sister. A quick reminder,

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Speaker 2: Fran was fifteen and Emma was four when Anastasia was murdered.

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Speaker 2: Before Fran, Emma and I get off our zoom call

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Speaker 2: that day, Emma, you said you wanted to say something.

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Speaker 4: Oh, just in regards to why we feel like Byron's guilty. Yeah, huh.

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Speaker 4: Now I'm put on the spot. I feel like, to

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Speaker 4: believe viron you have to not believe what's coming out

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Speaker 4: of Kelly, you know, and I just I can't do that.

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Speaker 4: I don't see any motivation really for her other than

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: What they're alleging.

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Speaker 4: So maybe these are the sound bites that I'm worried about,

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Speaker 4: you know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: Well, then why don't you think about it and even

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Speaker 2: write something up or you can email meself.

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Speaker 4: I have written it up. That's why I'm like, just

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Speaker 4: read it, okay. Yeah. So I read the transcripts over

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Speaker 4: again today and I did like a close reading, you know,

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Speaker 4: one time where I'm like, okay, so he's guilty. One

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Speaker 4: time where I'm like, Okay, he's innocent, and you know,

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Speaker 4: everything he says in that call makes sense if he's guilty,

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Speaker 4: but not everything adds up if he's innocent, he's surprised

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Speaker 4: and definitely caught off guard by you know, the phone

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Speaker 4: call from Kelly. It sounds us and that's because it

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Speaker 4: was super high stake situation. There's the cops on the

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Speaker 4: other end. It's being recorded, so it's not that Kelly's

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Speaker 4: making things up or because someone else made this stuff

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Speaker 4: up that she's saying. But you know, at some points

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Speaker 4: when he doesn't respond, you know that he's doing some

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Speaker 4: like mental calculations, and it including when she says point

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Speaker 4: blank like why did you have to kill her?

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Speaker 3: What was the whole efing deal? Could you explain to me?

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Speaker 4: There's no response for a good eight seconds, and then

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Speaker 4: she continues like you know, and then there's again no response.

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Speaker 4: A firm you know, like I didn't kill her? Is

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Speaker 4: like what I found myself saying whenever I did the

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Speaker 4: close reading where he's innocent. You know, it just doesn't

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Speaker 4: make sense that he wouldn't say, like what what are

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Speaker 4: you talking about? What are you talking about? Like justin

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Speaker 4: did it? You know, so make that make sense. Furthermore,

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Speaker 4: it wasn't just that, you know, the whole conversation. It

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Speaker 4: kind of alludes to this shared trauma that they have,

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Speaker 4: like you know, reading between the lines, Kelly's like, I've

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Speaker 4: not been the same since It's almost like, you know,

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Speaker 4: he hasn't been the same sense either. You know, you

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Speaker 4: can be traumatized by something that you did. I don't

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Speaker 4: know exactly how he feels about that, but it doesn't

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Speaker 4: sound like what they're dealing with is their friends separately

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Speaker 4: committing suicide or furtherer suicide. You know, that doesn't sound

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Speaker 4: like what they're dealing with. Yeah, I wanted to ask

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Speaker 4: you if your podcast also explores what happened to Justin

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Speaker 4: or does it touch that at all?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we I mean as much as we can. I

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Speaker 2: reached out to Justin's sister, not his mom yet, but

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Speaker 2: his sister, hoping to talk with her, and I haven't

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Speaker 2: heard back.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you are all in touch with

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Speaker 1: Justin's family.

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Speaker 2: But because you know, Justin accorded to Buyer, and Justin

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Speaker 2: called him that next morning, right around nine o'clock and

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Speaker 2: then within I think it was between nine to eleven

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Speaker 2: and nine twenty five, he was at the gun shop

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Speaker 2: buying the gun. So one would imagine he was about

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Speaker 2: to take his own life because he knew something. Either

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Speaker 2: he was there, he did it, he watched it. He

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Speaker 2: used that gun to kill himself, though he bought a

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Speaker 2: new gun. He bought a new gun in the morning

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Speaker 2: of the twenty third morning her body was found.

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Speaker 3: Pardon and used that one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, but that's not the gun that was used. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's a new gun.

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Speaker 5: So yeah, before it was announced on the tea or anything,

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Speaker 5: he is already buying a gun.

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Speaker 2: I think at seven o'clock in the morning, there is

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Speaker 2: the Sheriff's Department sends out a media alert to saying

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Speaker 2: that a body, no name, no identification, but a body

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Speaker 2: had been found in Lincoln Cemetery. So technically he might

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Speaker 2: have heard something.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: I don't have any evidence that says any of the

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Speaker 2: new stations put anything out at seven or before nine.

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Speaker 2: All I have is the Sheriff's Department report that they

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Speaker 2: send out a media alert.

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Speaker 1: But yees.

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Speaker 2: So that's a long way of saying, yes, we do

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Speaker 2: absolutely talk about Justin. We talk about you know, it's

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Speaker 2: in a lot of the interviews with Kilgore, and you know,

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Speaker 2: whether it's with Byron or Kelly or about what people

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Speaker 2: think may have happened and why Justin would have taken

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Speaker 2: his own life. Let me ask you, because one of

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Speaker 2: the rumors that went around a lot was that there

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Speaker 2: was a suicide packed do you think that there was

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Speaker 2: any credibility to that? I mean, Anastasia I had talked

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Speaker 2: about suicide. Do you think that there was any chance

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Speaker 2: that she and Justin and maybe I don't.

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Speaker 3: Think that's the way it went down.

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Speaker 4: No, No, they may have talked about that because they

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Speaker 4: were goffy teenagers, but that's not what happened. You know,

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Speaker 4: she was super vain about her She.

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Speaker 5: Never would have shot herself in her tiny little ski

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Speaker 5: slate slope nose. I thought it was just the smallest,

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Speaker 5: tiniest nose ever. She had a great smile, perfect set

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Speaker 5: of teeth, no braces. She was too vain to kill herself,

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Speaker 5: especially shooting herself in the face like like pills, or.

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Speaker 3: Splitting her wrists or something dramatic like gosh.

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Speaker 4: I mean again, you would have to be saying that

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Speaker 4: you don't believe Kelly's story or if this happened, you know,

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Speaker 4: in isolation, what happened to the murder weapon? Like are

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Speaker 4: those suicide the bullets?

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Speaker 3: What happened to that stuff?

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Speaker 5: So I can say, like in terms of her that night,

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Speaker 5: we had fought about clothes, and that's how I remember

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Speaker 5: what she was wearing so distinctly. And I mean, I

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Speaker 5: think some of the other eyewitness accounts say she was

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Speaker 5: wearing jeans, and I just there's no way she had them.

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Speaker 5: The black pants we fought over, and I was super

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Speaker 5: sad after she was gone because I couldn't steal those

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Speaker 5: pants from her anymore.

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Speaker 3: And she and.

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Speaker 5: She took my shoes and they were just some hand

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Speaker 5: meeting on Doc mart We'll not hanging down. There were

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Speaker 5: secondhand Doc Martins that I got at a thrift store

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Speaker 5: in Michigan when I was out of town, and I

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Speaker 5: remember thinking like, why did she have to die in

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Speaker 5: my shoes? Not because those are my shoes, but because

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Speaker 5: if she had been trying to run away, the inside

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Speaker 5: of those shoes were so slippery, like they had like

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Speaker 5: a smooth insole, and how your socks would just slip around,

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Speaker 5: and she had smaller feet than me, and how like

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Speaker 5: she would not have been able to.

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Speaker 3: Run in those shoes. And I just remember thinking like, oh.

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Speaker 5: My god, like before we knew what happened, before Kelly

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Speaker 5: came forward, thinking like, oh my god, she couldn't escape

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Speaker 5: because she had those damn shoes on, and.

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Speaker 3: She definitely wasn't walking home.

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Speaker 5: My thought she was not a locker. We were not athletic.

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Speaker 5: Like she knew how to call collect on a payphone.

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Speaker 3: She would have gotten a ride home. She would she

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Speaker 3: would have called and gotten a ride home. There's no way.

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Speaker 2: What about because your dad was the one who thought

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Speaker 2: that she may have come home home because he found

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Speaker 2: a pair of blue jeans in the washing machine and

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Speaker 2: underwear soaking, and that is and that sort of matches

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Speaker 2: what don Wright at the Dairy Queen said that she

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Speaker 2: you know, was wearing that night.

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Speaker 5: Doud She was terrible about doing laundry. That stuff could

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Speaker 5: have been in there for two weeks. She was absent

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Speaker 5: minded when it came to that stuff. So I don't

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Speaker 5: I don't think that. I mean, it could have been

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Speaker 5: mine for all I know. I don't remember specifically, she

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Speaker 5: might remember what she was wearing. I do know what

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Speaker 5: she was wearing because it was, Yeah, like it's sad.

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Speaker 5: It's sad to think about the last time you saw

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Speaker 5: someone before they dies. You guys were fighting, like that's

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Speaker 5: clothes and because I stole her clothes and more than

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Speaker 5: to school, like a good sister she was, so, you know,

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Speaker 5: I I think the eyewitness accounts, well, you know, it's

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Speaker 5: it's I'm.

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Speaker 3: Glad people saw her. I don't.

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Speaker 5: I don't think what she was wearing could be considered

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Speaker 5: reliable from other people.

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Speaker 4: I don't understand whenever they interviewed that person, was that

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Speaker 4: before or after or during the trial, Like can I

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Speaker 4: just think, yeah, like that's I don't know that part either,

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Speaker 4: And I know she gave testimony, and so I don't

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Speaker 4: doubt that Anastasia was there.

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Speaker 3: Her whole description of the outfit.

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Speaker 5: I'm just like, that's not what Anastasia like, never wore sandals, like,

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Speaker 5: she didn't carry purses.

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Speaker 3: Really she I don't recall her having a purse on her.

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Speaker 5: I remember that ugly corduroy jacket and she loved it,

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Speaker 5: and I was I thought it was hideous, Like I

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Speaker 5: hate I had trauma from corduae from when I was

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Speaker 5: a kid, I guess, but like the just yeah, it's

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Speaker 5: very weird.

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Speaker 2: I share more with brand and Emma about dairy queen

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Speaker 2: worker Don Wright, who interacted with Anastasia that night. Weird,

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Speaker 2: don right, she's passed away, Oh okay, but I have

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Speaker 2: the police report and so, and she was interviewed by

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Speaker 2: kil Gore on audiotape.

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Speaker 1: They audio taped it.

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Speaker 2: So she was interviewed on the twenty fourth, so the

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Speaker 2: day after, and then kil Gore writes a report that

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Speaker 2: he called her the next day to say, do you

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Speaker 2: remember anything else? And she's like, yeah, I actually remember

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Speaker 2: what she was wearing. And so that's when she gives

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Speaker 2: a report of the blue jeans and the socks and

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Speaker 2: sandals and the purse.

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Speaker 1: So it was two.

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Speaker 2: Days one day after she was found that Don Wright

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Speaker 2: is interviewed and the day after that she talks about

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Speaker 2: the clothes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I just don't know what to make about that.

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Speaker 3: I don't think it proves anything.

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Speaker 2: When your dad says that he found that stuff at

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Speaker 2: the house, and your dad is like in multiple emails,

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Speaker 2: like she came home, Like I believe she came home.

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Speaker 3: Did she hit hike I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Or got a ride or they came back, or she

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Speaker 2: got out of the car, because Don Rand at the

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Speaker 2: Amaco saw her get out of the car and she

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Speaker 2: started to walk and they went and picked her back up.

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Speaker 2: And I have no idea. I have no idea. I

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Speaker 2: drove it multiple times while I was in Kansas City.

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Speaker 2: And even though this is twenty something years later, I

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Speaker 2: tried to imagine myself if I would walk that far.

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Speaker 1: That's very very.

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Speaker 3: Far, it really is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, three plus miles right and at night.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and passed like you know, for sex shop, and

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Speaker 2: I mean it gets better as it.

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Speaker 1: Got to your old you know, to the true.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but that's incredibly long. I've never walked up for

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Speaker 3: in Independence now.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I tried a lot of self in her

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Speaker 2: shoes and I'm like, I can't even if you're like

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Speaker 2: angry and you're like, I'm just so mad at my boyfriend,

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Speaker 2: I'm just gonna walk home.

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Speaker 1: It still is. If it were a mile, I could maybe.

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Speaker 2: Imagine that it seemed very far to me, it seemed

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Speaker 2: quite far.

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Speaker 4: How much does that like matter to the case, Like

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Speaker 4: we're just trying to account for what happened, like the time,

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Speaker 4: but I mean.

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Speaker 2: I think it matters in that a lot of people,

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Speaker 2: especially before Kelly comes forward, is a lot of people

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Speaker 2: are debating all these things like this is part of

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Speaker 2: the investigation.

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Speaker 1: Did she use the payphone?

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Speaker 2: You know, like your dad says that he spoke to

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Speaker 2: So there was that Amico station that used to be

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Speaker 2: at the corner. And then there was another gas station

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Speaker 2: next door, Phillip sixty six station, And your dad tells

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Speaker 2: kil Gore like, look, I spoke with Don Rand at

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Speaker 2: the Amico station. I also went next door to the

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Speaker 2: Phillip station and the father and daughter who owned that

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Speaker 2: station said that they saw a young woman that night too,

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Speaker 2: and she used the payphone. Okay, well, also kill Gore?

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Speaker 2: What the ah? Like, what the tuck? Did you not

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Speaker 2: get payphone records or you know what I mean? So

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Speaker 2: it is part of the investigation. And it's also part

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Speaker 2: of what wasn't done.

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Speaker 1: So was it this? Was it Anastasia? Who's the phone?

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Speaker 1: Who knows?

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Speaker 2: But you're you know, like your your dad brings that

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Speaker 2: to kill Gore, and kill Gore doesn't follow up. Nobody

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Speaker 2: goes and tries to find that father and daughter to

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Speaker 2: to corroborate that. We speak for a few more minutes,

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Speaker 2: then start to wrap up our conversation. I'm very, very

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Speaker 2: appreciative and thankful for today. Yeah, and if there's anything

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Speaker 2: you think I need to know, whether it's about Anastasia

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Speaker 2: or Justin or Byron or you know, your family, anything.

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Speaker 3: Pretty much both that we believe Kelly. Yeah, I don't.

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Speaker 3: I don't. I mean we heard from.

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Speaker 4: The prosecutor that she would probably be willing if it

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Speaker 4: came to it again, testify against him again. She stands

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Speaker 4: by her story still, and it's twenty six years later.

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Speaker 4: You know, I don't see anything that she gained. She

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Speaker 4: could have just as easily said Justin did it. And

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Speaker 4: I mean she did, like stick with that story, and

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Speaker 4: Byron could have said that too. And I think the

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Speaker 4: fact that.

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Speaker 5: The Sheriff's department I remember, I feel like I remember

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Speaker 5: them wanting to label that this murder suicide. And how

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Speaker 5: easily it could have just been written off by that

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Speaker 5: because then they don't have to have a trial. Justin's dead.

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Speaker 5: How easy would that have been for that to happen.

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Speaker 5: She wanted to let us know what happened. I mean,

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Speaker 5: that was her motivation.

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Speaker 4: And she wasn't under the his palm anymore. You know,

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Speaker 4: It's not that she was angry. She just was like

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Speaker 4: finally like.

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Speaker 3: Trauma.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, coming to terms with her on trauma and the

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Speaker 5: damage it did to her. I think the damage just

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Speaker 5: all everyone that knew and a station cared about her.

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Speaker 3: This traumatized us all. How does how does someone that

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Speaker 3: you've known for years kill you?

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Speaker 1: Anna?

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Speaker 5: Stasia could definitely piss a person off. I don't remember

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00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:40,720
Speaker 5: her ever, like being beat up in school. I think

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00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:44,160
Speaker 5: Anastasia was so cerebral that and you know a few

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Speaker 5: times that somebody wanted to pick a fight with her,

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Speaker 5: you know, she was the one getting them in trouble.

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Speaker 5: Like it wasn't a lot of physical altercations. Now could

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Speaker 5: she have defended herself, Like, oh my god, that girl

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Speaker 5: could scratch. I have.

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Speaker 3: Faded scar it's been so long, but from her scratching.

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Speaker 5: Like if she had been in a situation I feel

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Speaker 5: like with a stranger where it was you know, die

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Speaker 5: or live, Yeah, altercation, she would have she would have fought,

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Speaker 5: she would have ran, she would have gotten help. She

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Speaker 5: wouldn't have gotten in a stranger's car, like so many things,

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Speaker 5: like she was smart about and this caught her off guard,

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Speaker 5: like this would happen to her. She she didn't have

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Speaker 5: a chance to run away. She didn't have, you know,

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Speaker 5: a chance to escape. And so I think, to me,

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Speaker 5: Kelly's story makes the most sense about why she didn't

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Speaker 5: have any signs of fighting for her life because she

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Speaker 5: trusted these people and she shouldn't have.

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Speaker 2: Anastasia's sisters Fran and Emma very much believe Kelly Moffatt

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00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,760
Speaker 2: told the truth when she came forward in September of

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Speaker 2: two thousand. I still hope Kelly and I get a

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Speaker 2: chance to sit down and talk, I suggested before she

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Speaker 2: makes her decision. She listened to these twelve episodes first.

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Speaker 2: And there are other people I was hoping to interview,

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Speaker 2: like Prosecutor Teresa Crayon, Judge Charles Atwell, doctor Thomas Young,

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Speaker 2: and defense attorney Horton Lance, none of whom will talk

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Speaker 2: right now. I also really want to speak with John Fisher.

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Speaker 2: Bob Whitblesfuchen's alibi the night Anastasia was killed. Remember Bob

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Speaker 2: said after work on the evening of October twenty second,

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety seven, he went to John's house for a

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Speaker 2: meeting about a marathon he was going to run. It

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Speaker 2: seems no one from the Jackson County Sheriff's Department ever

336
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Speaker 2: contacted John Fisher to verify Bob's alibi that night, but

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00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,080
Speaker 2: Byron's legal team does find and speak with John and

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Speaker 2: his wife Elizabeth in Indiana. They both write AffA Davits,

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00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:18,520
Speaker 2: and they both agree to speak with me. We begin

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00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,480
Speaker 2: with how John and Bob met while working for the

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Speaker 2: IRS in Kansas. It's a coworker of yours. Tell me

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Speaker 2: a little bit about how you met Bob Whitbolsfugen.

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Speaker 6: Okay, Well, we crossed paths at the IRS, so I

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00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:37,480
Speaker 6: had met Bob and chat. We're acquaintances. We hadn't really

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00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:44,000
Speaker 6: developed the friendship spending time together until this marathon came

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Speaker 6: up and I decided that I wanted to run a

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Speaker 6: relay team for the marathon and posted this notice on

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Speaker 6: the bulletin board at work, and Bob saw it too

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Speaker 6: and then said, yeah, I'll do that. He seemed like

350
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Speaker 6: a nice guy. It might have been was a little different,

351
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,080
Speaker 6: but I think he had an unusual sense of humor

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00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:08,959
Speaker 6: and different air, different persona about him.

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Speaker 1: Or what did he do with the IRS? Do you

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Speaker 1: know what his job was?

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Speaker 7: Yeah?

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Speaker 6: Well he did pretty much the same thing I did,

357
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:23,000
Speaker 6: answered phone calls from taxpayers with questions about their tax returns.

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Speaker 2: Did you and Bob work near each other, like sit

359
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Speaker 2: near each other or did you eat lunch together?

360
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Speaker 6: No, as a matter of fact, I didn't, as it

361
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:37,000
Speaker 6: was an acquaintanceship, but really not so much of friendship.

362
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Speaker 2: Did Bob ever talk about his family or his daughters.

363
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Speaker 6: Well, I knew that he had a large number of daughters.

364
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:47,679
Speaker 6: It was four or five.

365
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Speaker 3: Something like that.

366
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Speaker 2: Around seven pm on October twenty seconds, nineteen ninety seven,

367
00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:56,640
Speaker 2: people gather for that meeting about the marathon they all

368
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Speaker 2: planned to run. Where does this meeting take place?

369
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:02,840
Speaker 6: Meeting took place at Elizabeth's house.

370
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Speaker 7: Well, that's right, we had it at our at my house.

371
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:11,200
Speaker 2: And by that time Elizabeth, who was John's girlfriend at

372
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,159
Speaker 2: the time, says she didn't know anyone there that evening,

373
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Speaker 2: but one person who would turn out to be Bob

374
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Speaker 2: Whitbullsfuchen did make an impression on her.

375
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Speaker 6: Nothing.

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Speaker 7: I remember sitting in the living room looking at Bob

377
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Speaker 7: Bitbull's fuch and thinking, you are sitting on George's chair,

378
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Speaker 7: and I really hope when you stand up that you

379
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 7: don't have an orange rear and because your pants are black,

380
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:38,680
Speaker 7: And that was pretty much all I could think about

381
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 7: during the entire meeting was and just to be clear,

382
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:47,120
Speaker 7: who's George. Oh, George was my cat? Yes, my cat George.

383
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Speaker 7: That chair because it was kind of out of the

384
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Speaker 7: way usually nobody said it.

385
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Speaker 1: It was an old chair for my grandmother.

386
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Speaker 7: With a needle point cover that it didn't look inviting,

387
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,119
Speaker 7: and it was just over in a corner, but he

388
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:03,400
Speaker 7: chose that Jair.

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00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 2: Elizabeth, did anything stand out to you about Bob other

390
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:09,920
Speaker 2: than that he was going to be covered in George's

391
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Speaker 2: cat hair?

392
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Speaker 1: Not a thing that I recall. Do you remember seeing

393
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 1: the cat hair on him?

394
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 7: Yes? I did, And I thought I stood there saying, oh,

395
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,199
Speaker 7: good night, And I thought, do I tell him or

396
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:24,960
Speaker 7: do I let his wife tell him?

397
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 1: And I and there were all these.

398
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,880
Speaker 7: Other people, and I thought, if I tell him now,

399
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 7: he'll be embarrassed, and it just I decided not to

400
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 7: tell him.

401
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 2: John, do you remember anything or pett Bob seem at

402
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 2: Elizabeth's house that night during the meeting.

403
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:43,679
Speaker 6: Well, he seemed like he'd always seemed kind of normal Bob,

404
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,440
Speaker 6: kind of a different sense of humor, maybe you kind

405
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:52,399
Speaker 6: of ry and dry sense of humor, but otherwise just

406
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 6: like himself. Yeah, he didn't give off any vibes of,

407
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:04,360
Speaker 6: you know, being concerned or angry or upset at all.

408
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 2: Elizabeth and John say because it was a work night,

409
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,680
Speaker 2: they would have normally gotten ready for bed by ten,

410
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 2: so they believe the meeting broke up around eight thirty

411
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,879
Speaker 2: or nine. The next day, John says he gets a

412
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 2: call from Bob with the tragic news about Anastasia.

413
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 6: The next day actually called, I think and said, you know,

414
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 6: I'm sorry. I can't can't run in a race anymore.

415
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 6: My daughter was killed last night.

416
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 1: Do you remember any more about that conversation?

417
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,159
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm so sorry, and jeez, is there anything I

418
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 6: can do? And he sounded very forced, but also kind

419
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,639
Speaker 6: of kind of yeah, kind of forced, like he was

420
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,919
Speaker 6: trying to keep himself under control. But you know that

421
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 6: made him sound kind of cold. But you're going to

422
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 6: tell he was angry too, and upset.

423
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 2: The Fisher's a Anastasia's funeral. Then, some time later, John

424
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 2: tells Elizabeth about a conversation he had with Bob.

425
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 7: Bob had gone to find her when he got home

426
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,640
Speaker 7: and found out she hadn't come home. That he went

427
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 7: to find her and he tried to get her to

428
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 7: get into the car, and she wouldn't get into the car,

429
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 7: and then.

430
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:20,919
Speaker 1: She was killed.

431
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 7: And this was just stored in the back of my head. No,

432
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 7: Bob said that he went to find her and she

433
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 7: wouldn't get in the car.

434
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 2: And you remember this because John told you. Why do

435
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 2: you remember this?

436
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,199
Speaker 7: John told me this, and you know it was just

437
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 7: part of the story that I was storing in my

438
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:42,880
Speaker 7: internal violin cabinet.

439
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 2: Do you remember what you thought when hearing that Bob

440
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,920
Speaker 2: may have come in contact with his daughter that night?

441
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 7: Well, it was just heartbreaking. My thought, I guess my

442
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,959
Speaker 7: feeling and thought was she might not be dead if

443
00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 7: she would have gotten in the car. She should have

444
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 7: gone with dad. Duh, she should have gone with her dad.

445
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 7: Too bad she didn't go with her dad. She wouldn't

446
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 7: be dead. He almost had her, and then he didn't

447
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,479
Speaker 7: get her, and then she got killed.

448
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 2: Do you remember any more details about that interaction that

449
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 2: Bob had shared with John?

450
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: Not much.

451
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 7: I just remember him saying he couldn't get her to

452
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:27,439
Speaker 7: get in the car. Now, what I'm not sure about

453
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 7: is did he have her in the car and she

454
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:36,360
Speaker 7: jumped out? Maybe I couldn't say that didn't happen. I

455
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,439
Speaker 7: couldn't say John didn't tell me that, Or did he

456
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 7: just see her walking along and he said get into

457
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 7: the car. So that precise thing I don't know.

458
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 2: Now, John, do you remember this conversation or this part

459
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 2: of the conversation with Bob very vaguely.

460
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:59,439
Speaker 6: Yeah, And I couldn't tell you exactly when it took place,

461
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 6: but it was within a couple of three weeks.

462
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: Of the murder.

463
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 6: He was back at work and obsessed, of course with this,

464
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 6: and I'm sure he was well providing that he was

465
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 6: telling the truth about having found her and she refusing

466
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 6: to get into the car.

467
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 2: You say in your Affidavid that you don't remember this

468
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 2: as much as Elizabeth does, but you very much trust

469
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 2: Elizabeth's memory.

470
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:35,680
Speaker 6: Well, Elizabeth has an eye, has an eye for detail.

471
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 6: I mean she always has and still does. If she

472
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 6: says that's the way it happened, and you can be

473
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 6: pretty sure that's the way it happened.

474
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 2: And again you remember John sharing that information that Bob

475
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 2: shared with.

476
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 7: Him, because well, you know, it's just it was stored

477
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 7: in my head.

478
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 1: Had like a clip from a film.

479
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 7: Right, guy comes to your house, Guy sits in Kent

480
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 7: for goes home, daughter gets killed in a cemetery. He

481
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 7: can't be in the race. I very clearly see that

482
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 7: Bob tried to get her back in the car. Bob

483
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 7: said he tried to get her into the car.

484
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 2: So you said, John that after Anastasia's murder, Bob. You

485
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 2: could see Bob becoming more and more obsessed.

486
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:36,400
Speaker 6: Yes, I just remember generally that over the next few weeks,

487
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 6: if not months, I didn't see a lot of him,

488
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 6: but when I ran into him, he was always upset

489
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 6: about the progress of the investigation, thought it was being

490
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 6: handled poorly and not pursued it. And it's possible, you know,

491
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 6: from what I've heard since, that there are elements of

492
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 6: the case that maybe he should be glad weren't pursued.

493
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 2: Did anyone from the Sheriff's department reach out to you

494
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 2: to find out where Bob was that night, how he

495
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 2: was that night? Did anyone Did any investigators reach out

496
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 2: to either of you?

497
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 6: No?

498
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 2: No, So what John and Elizabeth just shared is interesting,

499
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 2: to say the very least. Right, If Bob saw and

500
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 2: spoke with Anastasia that evening, does that mean she actually

501
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 2: did get out of Justin's car, like Byron said she did.

502
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 2: Let's talk about some of the potential time stamps we have.

503
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 2: According to Bob, he knew that Anastasia had been dropped

504
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 2: off at Mount Washington Cemetery and she was out there

505
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 2: alone because Justin wasn't coming to meet her as early

506
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,959
Speaker 2: as five thirty PM. John and Elizabeth Fisher say the

507
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 2: marathon meeting started around seven and ended around eight thirty

508
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 2: or nine. I google the distance between Elizabeth's house back

509
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:06,719
Speaker 2: then and Bob's house and it's like eighteen miles, roughly

510
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 2: a twenty seven minute drive. So does that mean Bob

511
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,719
Speaker 2: could have been back in the area between nine and

512
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 2: nine thirty? Although in Bob's first interview with investigators, he

513
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 2: said he got home around eight thirty eight forty five

514
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 2: that night, but Fran told Sergeant Kilgore her dad got

515
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 2: home between nine forty five and ten. Anyway, assuming the

516
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 2: meeting ended between eight thirty and nine, could Bob have

517
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 2: found and talked to Anastasia sometime between nine and nine thirty,

518
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 2: or could it have been later that evening when he

519
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 2: said he went out looking for her, like around eleven thirty,

520
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 2: the time he said he heard that gunshot that he

521
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 2: believed was the one that killed her. Either way, if

522
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 2: Bob saw Anastasia alive that night, it would have been

523
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 2: after Kelly was already home in Lenexa, Kansas, having made

524
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 2: her nine pm curfew. It must be said if Bob

525
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 2: did find Anastasia that night. It doesn't mean he did

526
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 2: anything nefarious to her. I think the biggest question is

527
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 2: if Bob did in fact see and try to get

528
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 2: Anastasia in the car that night, why didn't he tell

529
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 2: any of this to detectives. Okay, there is someone else

530
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 2: we haven't spent much time talking about, and that's Anastasia's boyfriend,

531
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 2: Justin Brutin. If you remember, earlier in the episode, fran

532
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 2: and Emma asked if we spent any time looking into

533
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 2: Justin and what happened to him. Justin took his own

534
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 2: life after Anastasia was found dead. Why what did he know?

535
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 2: What did he see or what did he do? Since

536
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 2: Justin left no note behind, getting to any real answers

537
00:31:55,800 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 2: has been tough. There is something that may or may

538
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 2: not be relevant, but I think it's worth mentioning. In

539
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety nine, twenty nine year old April Wilkins is

540
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 2: convicted of first degree murder and sentenced to life for

541
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 2: killing Terry Carleton in self defense. Terry Carleton was Justin

542
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 2: Bruton's uncle. I bring up April because although it wasn't

543
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 2: allowed in it or trial, in some post conviction court documents,

544
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 2: April says Terry actually brought up Justin and Anastasia in

545
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 2: the months after her murder. According to court documents, Terry

546
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 2: said about Anastasia, the bitch got what she deserved and

547
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 2: that April was next. Terry's alleged threats prove nothing definitive

548
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 2: about whether or not Justin killed Anastasia. Obviously, neither Justin

549
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 2: nor Terry can tell their side of that story, so

550
00:32:51,960 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 2: we're still left with no real answers on Justin. Something

551
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 2: I've been thinking about since I started this season is

552
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 2: what is most logical. Anastasia's sisters Fran and Emma believe

553
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 2: that Kelly's story makes the most sense. But my question is,

554
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 2: does what makes the most sense equal the facts. What

555
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 2: are the undeniable facts in this case? And do they

556
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 2: actually prove Byron is guilty or innocent or do they

557
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 2: prove neither. Here's what we believe we know for sure.

558
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 2: On October twenty second, nineteen ninety seven, at around four

559
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 2: to twenty pm, Anastasia's stepmother, Diane, drove hed to Mount

560
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 2: Washington Cemetery to meet Justin. At around five pm, Anastasia

561
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 2: was seen by Glenn Culliver, the caretaker at Mount Washington

562
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 2: around five point thirty pm, George and Karen Lepage, who

563
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 2: are test driving a car in Mount Washington Cemetery, spoke

564
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 2: with Anastasia. When she asked for the time, she told

565
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 2: them that she was there waiting for her boyfriend to arrive.

566
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 2: Sometime after that, Anastasia walked across the street to the

567
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 2: Dairy Queen and called Justin several times. There she came

568
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 2: in contact with Dairy Queen worker Don Wright and the owner,

569
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 2: Suleiman Solid, although their times differ. They said while there,

570
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 2: Anastasia got her period, used the bathroom, used the payphone,

571
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 2: and then was picked up by two guys and a girl.

572
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 2: Around seven o five pm, Glenn Calliver said he saw

573
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 2: Anastasia again, this time with two guys and a girl.

574
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 2: He wrote down their license plate as they left the cemetery.

575
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 2: This turned out to be the license plates on Justin's car.

576
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 2: The next person who said they saw Anastasia was Don Rand,

577
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 2: the night mechanic at the Amico station. When Don Rand

578
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 2: was shown a photo of Anastasia, he identified her as

579
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 2: a woman he saw on Truman Road walking east around

580
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 2: eight thirty that night. The next thing we know is

581
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 2: that Kelly, Justin and Byron went to where Abraham was

582
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 2: house sitting. They picked up some stuff that he had

583
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 2: of his ex girlfriends. They left and they took Kelly

584
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,760
Speaker 2: home to Lenexa, Kansas for her curfew. At nine pm.

585
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 2: Later that evening, Anastasia's dad, Bob, went out looking for

586
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 2: her and said he couldn't find her. Anastasia was found

587
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:32,280
Speaker 2: dead at three forty four am in Lincoln's Cemetery, wearing

588
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 2: black pants, black Doc Martin shoes, a gray sweater, a

589
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 2: tan corduroy jacket, and clean underwear and pad. Anastasia suffered

590
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 2: a contact gunshot wound to her nose, meaning the gun

591
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 2: was pressed up against her nose when she was shot. Okay,

592
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 2: here's what we don't have. Definitive objective answers to Anastasia's

593
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 2: time of death, what kind of gun was used, or

594
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:04,279
Speaker 2: where that gun came from. Why don writes description of

595
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 2: Anastasia's clothes didn't match what Fran said Anastasia was wearing

596
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 2: when she left the house, which seems to be the

597
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 2: same clothes she was found dead in roughly twelve hours later.

598
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 2: We also don't know why don Wright said she saw

599
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 2: Anastasia carrying a purse Fran and others have said Anastasia

600
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,720
Speaker 2: never carried a purse, but sometimes she carried a wallet.

601
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 2: We don't know for sure if Don gave Anastasia a

602
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 2: pad or a tampon. Don first told Kilgore it was

603
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,720
Speaker 2: a pad, then a trial she said it was a tampon.

604
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,320
Speaker 2: And we don't know how if Anastasia got her period

605
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 2: that night, why she was found in clean underwear and

606
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:50,879
Speaker 2: a clean pad. Here are some questions I have. Anastasia

607
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 2: was found with having three dollars and sixty five cents

608
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 2: in her pants pocket. Don Wright, as we know, said

609
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:02,720
Speaker 2: Anastasia was carrying a purse. Kelly, in her second interview

610
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 2: with kil Gore a month after the murder, said she

611
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 2: saw Anastasia with a wallet that night. If Anastasia had

612
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 2: been carrying a wallet or a purse, why wouldn't the

613
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 2: money be in one of those? Did Don Rand really

614
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 2: see Anastasia or was it someone else he saw? Who

615
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 2: did the father and daughter at the Phillip sixty sixth

616
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 2: station see using the payphone. Bob says Anastasia went home

617
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 2: and changed her clothes because he found her jeans in

618
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 2: the washing machine and underwear soaking in a sink. Were

619
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 2: those Anastasia's clothes or were they friends? Or was this

620
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 2: like the caravan of cars, which means it most likely

621
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 2: never happened. Bob says he also found Anastasia's purse at

622
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 2: the house. Bob took a photo of it sent it

623
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 2: to Sergeant kil Gore. Kil Gore could have shown it

624
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 2: to Don Wright, but he didn't. The photo of the

625
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 2: per kind of looked maybe like a long wallet. Were

626
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 2: the purse and the wallet the same thing? Did Anastasia

627
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,439
Speaker 2: actually go home? If so, how did she get there?

628
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:19,359
Speaker 2: Did she call Patrick rockfer Ride or someone else? And

629
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 2: in all of Patrick's research into the Negro League, did

630
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 2: he really not have any knowledge of Lincoln's Cemetery and

631
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:30,320
Speaker 2: the players buried there? A quick reminder of what Patrick

632
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 2: wrote when I asked him about his work and connection

633
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 2: to Lincoln Cemetery. Remember we played this in episode nine.

634
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 8: I remain a Negro League research you're only remotely active now.

635
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 8: Hall of Famer Wilbur Bullet Rogan is buried in Blue

636
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 8: Ridge Lawn Memorial, just a mile or so south of

637
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 8: Lincoln Cemetery on the same road. But there are no

638
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 8: Negro leaguers of whom I know buried at Lincoln. However,

639
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,280
Speaker 8: Jazz immortal Charlie Bird Parker is buried not one hundred

640
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 8: and fifty feet from where Case murdered Anastasia. I was

641
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,360
Speaker 8: unaware of that fact until after the murder, never having

642
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 8: visited Lincoln until November nineteen ninety seven.

643
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 2: If Anastasia did go home, what happened at the house?

644
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 2: Why was there a stun gun on her bed? And

645
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 2: if Anastasia did go home, how and why did she

646
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 2: go back out? And how did she end up in

647
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 2: Lincoln Cemetery? And there's more? Why are there so many

648
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 2: different timelines? Why is it that Dairy Queen worker Don

649
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 2: Wright and owner Suleiman Salad gave different times for when

650
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 2: they saw Anastasia, one being as late as nine thirty pm,

651
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 2: well after Kelly was home in Lenexa, Kansas. And Franz

652
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 2: said the plan was for Anastasia to meet Justin at

653
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 2: Mount Washington Cemetery. So why, according to Kelly's new statement

654
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 2: in September of two thousand, did she say that after

655
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:02,399
Speaker 2: Justin and Byron picked her up at her house, they

656
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 2: needed her to call Anastasia to lure her out to

657
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 2: the Dairy Queen did Kelly, Justin, and Byron call and

658
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 2: speak with Anastasia before Fran got home that day? If so,

659
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 2: why didn't Anastasia ask for a ride to the Dairy

660
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 2: Queen instead of Mount Washington Cemetery? And if the plan

661
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 2: was to kill Anastasia, why did Justin tell Fran when

662
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 2: he called around four point thirty that he didn't want

663
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 2: to make the drive all the way from Lenexa, Kansas

664
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:35,839
Speaker 2: to Independence, Missouri to meet her.

665
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 1: What happened to the.

666
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 2: Gun Justin bought in September? Did he actually sell it

667
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,879
Speaker 2: like many people said, or did he keep it? What

668
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 2: messages were erased or recorded over on Justin's answering machine?

669
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 2: Why were there no defensive wounds on Anastasia? Did she

670
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 2: know her killer? Was this a surprise attack? How is

671
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 2: that she had no time to react? Kelly said Byron

672
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 2: was five feet away from Anastasia when he killed her.

673
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 2: How could that be considering the gun was pressed up

674
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:14,800
Speaker 2: against Anastasia's nose. Why did Justin take his own life?

675
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 2: Did he kill Anastasia? Did he witness Byron kill her?

676
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 2: Or did he feel guilty because she got out of

677
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 2: the car and nobody knew where she was One of

678
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,760
Speaker 2: the earliest rumors that went around was that Byron handed

679
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 2: Justin a gun he didn't know was loaded. Was this

680
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 2: just some horrible accident and everyone was too afraid to

681
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 2: tell the truth. Was Anastasia standing up or lying down

682
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 2: when she was shot? What are those blue fibers the

683
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 2: crime lab now sees on the bullet fragment? What color

684
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 2: were the paint chips they found on the tree at

685
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 2: the scene. Are they even related to this case? Why

686
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 2: wasn't Bob's car ever photographed and processed? Considering the front

687
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 2: end damage noted by Deputy Eperson When Bob said he

688
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,879
Speaker 2: heard the gun shot around eleven thirty that night, why

689
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 2: did he say he believed that was the shot that

690
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:10,799
Speaker 2: killed Anastasia? Was that the shot that killed Anastasia? Why

691
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 2: did Bob go to the exact spot in Lincoln Cemetery

692
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,359
Speaker 2: where Anastasia was found when no one outside of law

693
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 2: enforcement knew where it was. Did Bob actually see Anastasia

694
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 2: that night and try to get her into his car?

695
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 2: If so, why didn't he tell Kilgore about it? Did

696
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 2: Justin go back out that night? Did Byron? Was his

697
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 2: car at home or in the shop? Did Kelly work

698
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 2: with prosecutors to come up with her new story, pointing

699
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 2: the finger at Byron.

700
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 1: But why would Kelly do that?

701
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 2: Why would she implicate herself in Anastasia's murder if it

702
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 2: wasn't the truth. Could the drugs have warped Kelly's memory

703
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 2: when she came forward, causing some of her details to

704
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:01,919
Speaker 2: be off. Why would Byron bring his fifteen year old

705
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 2: girlfriend Kelly to a murder if he did kill Anastasia.

706
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 2: Why would Byron move away and risk pissing Kelly off,

707
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 2: which could result in her turning on him. Why wasn't

708
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 2: Kelly's new account enough for Byron to be arrested. Why

709
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 2: did prosecutors need more like a recorded confession? And during

710
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:28,360
Speaker 2: the June fifth recorded phone call, when Kelly asked Byron,

711
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 2: why did he feel the need to kill her, why

712
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:39,839
Speaker 2: didn't Byron deny it.

713
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 1: Is your head spinning like mine is.

714
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 2: All of these questions, including some great ones we received

715
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 2: from our listeners, have come up during the making of

716
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 2: this season. Respectfully, as much as some people think there

717
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 2: aren't any unanswered questions, it seems there are at least

718
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,880
Speaker 2: a few. We are going to take a short pause

719
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 2: until the final episode during that time, Please keep sending

720
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 2: in your questions, thoughts, and theories. I'm also going to

721
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 2: post key people's timelines on Instagram. In our last episode,

722
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 2: we hope to be back with a potentially huge interview

723
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:27,280
Speaker 2: that could answer so many of our questions. The views

724
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 2: and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of

725
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:36,240
Speaker 2: the individuals participating in the podcast. If you or someone

726
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 2: you know is experiencing suicidal thoughts or a crisis, please

727
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 2: no help is available.

728
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 1: Call or text.

729
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 2: Nine to eight eight, or chat online at the Suicide

730
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:52,359
Speaker 2: and Crisis Lifelines website at nine eight eight lifeline dot org.

731
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 2: To see photos, maps and documents related to this season's story,

732
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 2: follow The Real Killer Podcast on Instagram and at TRK

733
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 2: podcast on TikTok. The Real Killer is a production of

734
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 2: AYR Media and iHeartMedia, hosted by me Leah Rothman. Executive

735
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 2: producers Leah Rothman and Elisa Rosen for AYR Media. Written

736
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 2: by Leah Rothman, editing and sound design by Cameron Taggy,

737
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 2: mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggi, Audio engineer Justin Longerbeam

738
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 2: studio engineer Graham Gibson. Legal Council for AYR Media Johnny Douglas,

739
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,800
Speaker 2: executive producer for iHeartMedia, Maya Howard