WEBVTT - The House of Boleyn (with Tracy Borman) 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:04.560 Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm 0:00:04.640 --> 0:00:13.000 and Mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion advised. Hello, I 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:16.160 am so thrilled to be back again with one of 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:21.160 my all time favorite historians, the brilliant Tracy Borman. Correct 0:00:21.200 --> 0:00:23.479 me if I'm getting any of these titles wrong, but 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:28.720 chief Historian of Historic Royal Palaces, Executive of the Heritage 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:33.040 Education Trust, Chancellor and Professor of Tudor History at Lincoln 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:37.520 Bishop University, and just all around brilliant best selling writer, 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:39.080 historian and novelist. 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:43.600 That is correct. I'm really lovely to hear, so thank 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:46.120 you ever so much. I'm really thrilled to be back. 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:50.239 Your new book, The House of Bolin, is out in 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:53.880 the US on August fourth, and it is a novelization 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:58.040 of historical fiction about the rise of the Bolin family. 0:00:58.080 --> 0:01:02.320 I think I speak for a lot of people interested 0:01:02.360 --> 0:01:05.640 in this period of history. The Tutors are sort of 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:10.520 a gateway drug. People are fascinated by that period, Henry's 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:14.160 six Wives and Anne bull In particularly, and so it 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:18.080 was such a joy to read this book that presented 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:21.039 the Bullins in I can say, honestly a light I 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:22.520 had never seen them before. 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:27.080 Yeah, well I'm so pleased. That really does make me 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:31.200 very happy, because, of course you're absolutely right. The Tutors 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:34.040 are the gateway drug and the Ballins are the gateway 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:37.480 drug to the Tudors, sort of the most famous family 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:40.640 in Tudor, England. They've been written about, they've been shown 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:45.520 on screen, there are websites, all the social media accounts, 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:48.960 all sorts of things. So I thought, okay, what can 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:52.960 I do that is different and that is fresh, And 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:55.720 that's why I decided to set The House of Berlin, 0:01:56.360 --> 0:02:00.680 which is a play on words, at Heva Castle, beautiful 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:05.400 home in the southeast England countryside. And the reason I 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:07.800 wanted to do this, apart from bringing a fresh perspective, 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:11.480 was to show the Ballins as they really were, like 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:14.520 when they're off duty, when they're not pretending to be 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:20.840 these slick courtiers and political operators. Heava was their refuge 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:23.400 and where they went to escape from all of that, 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:27.200 to escape Henry the Eighth in Anne Berlin's case, and 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:32.480 so hopefully it's provided a more authentic view of this 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:34.120 controversial family. 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:39.000 To rewind a bit before the famous Anne Boleyn, who 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:43.160 of course became Henry the Eighth's second wife before and 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:47.760 meteoric rise, who were the Bolins? What was their position 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:49.040 in Tudor society. 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:52.560 So one of the great myths is that Henry the 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:57.680 eighth basically plucked the Ballins from obscurity and made them big. 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:00.920 And this was definitely not the case, because actually the 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:05.440 Berlins were probably northern French originally and came over with 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:10.200 William the Conqueror in ten sixty six. They settled in Norfolk, 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:12.760 so east of England, in the east of England, and 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:18.000 they gradually kind of built up their prosperity. They became 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:24.640 traders in wool, farmers, landowners, and then they started to 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:27.720 move in royal circles in the fourteen hundredth so at 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:31.280 least a century before Henry the eighth, they were already 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:35.320 on the rise big time, and they came into the 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:39.200 orbit of such monarchs as Richard the Third and Henry 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:43.240 Yate's father, and really just it built from there. So 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:48.000 they were absolutely already established both as a family and 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:52.920 within royal circles by the time Henry the eighth noticed 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:56.480 Ann Berlin. And we should say as well that Anne 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:59.960 wasn't the first Berlin who Henry noticed. Really he was. 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:02.240 He was a very big fan of her father, Thomas, 0:04:02.640 --> 0:04:06.280 who was a rising star in Henry's court and from 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:08.560 the very beginning of his reign, because Henry came to 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:12.960 the throne age of seventeen, so he's a very young king, 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:16.560 and Thomas Belin then was in his mid thirties, so 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:18.440 I think he was almost like a father figure for 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:21.000 Henry the eighth. He knew that he had a great 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:25.400 deal of experience, and he trusted him and promoted him. 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:28.720 So yeah, it's not just all this. Oh yeah, Henry 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:31.520 falls in love with Anne and then her whole family rise. 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:33.239 They're already rising. 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:36.680 You know. There was a point I think it was 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:40.000 made in a Gareth Russell history book where he points 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:42.960 out that also the line between the nobility and the 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:47.040 wealthy landowners like the Bullins wasn't quite as stark as 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:50.560 we might imagine with regards to intermarrying, just because there 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:55.200 weren't that many elite aristocratic families at that time. They 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:58.680 would run out of people to marry exactly. 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:03.520 I mean, it gets incestuous, really, and so Garret's absolutely right, 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:10.359 And actually one particular moment does elevate the Ballins socially 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:16.640 and that's when Thomas Berlin's father, William, marries Lady Margaret Butler, 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:20.279 and so she's the mother of Thomas Berlin, and she's 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:24.240 an Irish noble woman and heiress. She's the daughter of 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:27.039 the Earl of Ormond, one of the most distinguished nobles 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:29.080 in Ireland. So I think people aren't that aware that 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:32.960 the Ballins have this Irish heritage and that's what gave 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:36.760 them that crucial bit of pedigree. So I think people 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:39.880 still saw them as new money. You know, they've made 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:44.359 their wealth from trade, and then thanks to Margaret, that's 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:47.560 when they become more socially acceptable. 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:52.200 As you mentioned earlier, there's been plenty of depictions of 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:55.839 the Bolin's. Maybe the most surface level version of Thomas 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:58.760 Bolin that sometimes appears in pop culture is that he's 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:03.320 this Kenai man who uses both of his daughters just 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:06.840 to you know, for lack of a better phrase, prostitute 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:11.359 them for the king. Your Thomas Bolin is a much 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:16.080 more nuanced character, and I it seems more accurate to 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:18.480 how he actually might have been. Can you speak a 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:21.280 little bit to how you imagine Thomas Bolin might have 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:22.440 actually been as a person. 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:25.800 Yeah, absolutely, I should say, I did a huge amount 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:28.279 of research for this novel. Even though I've been researching 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:30.719 the Berlins for years, I really wanted to go in 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:34.680 deep for this, and everything I found out about Thomas 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:38.640 Bolin pointed to him being an affectionate father who was 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:43.280 trying to protect his family, not use them as collateral 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:46.680 damage in his rise to the top. And so you 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:50.160 just have to look at the way he really invests 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:55.200 in Annebolin's education, and he sunk her abroad when she's 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:59.719 twelve or thereabouts, and he also keeps one of Ann's 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:03.640 left so Anne writes to him when she's just about eleven, 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:08.359 twelve years old. He cherishes that letter and keeps it 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:11.720 with him always, and you can see how often he's 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:14.520 read it as well. This is a man lots of 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:17.000 papers pass his desk. There's no reason why he would 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:19.840 keep this letter from his twelve year old daughter unless 0:07:19.840 --> 0:07:23.120 it meant something. And I do think as well, Thomas 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:26.640 genuinely wanted to protect Anne when he kept bringing her 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:30.120 back to Heava. When Henry starts to show her interest 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:33.760 and pursue her, this isn't a strategy. I don't think 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:36.200 it's always presented as oh, yeah, you know there's treat 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:40.600 to me keeping Keen, drive Henry mad with frustrated lost, 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:42.720 and then he'll marry Anne. I don't think it was. 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:45.880 I think genuinely Thomas knew how dangerous the king was 0:07:46.400 --> 0:07:48.560 and he wanted to protect his order. 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:53.280 From that, especially given how it ended with Anne, which 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:56.800 I don't know if anyone could have seen coming. How 0:07:56.960 --> 0:07:59.120 you know the king would be quite that dangerous that 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:02.080 takes such a melancholy note. 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:08.000 Absolutely, I mean, honestly, I think even seconds before Anne 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:11.040 died on the scaffold at the Tower, he didn't think 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:14.520 it was going to happen. Eyewitnesses noted that as she 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:17.520 walked to the scaffold, she kept looking over her shoulder, 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:21.120 expecting a messenger from the King, saying, Okay, look, I've 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:24.680 taught you a lesson now and the whole thing's off. 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:27.560 Oh and I'll just send you Henri. And I just 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:31.080 think it's heartbreaking because it was unprecedented for a Queen 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:35.240 of England to be executed, and I think it shocked everybody. 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:37.560 And I do think, you know, I work at the 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:40.400 Tower of London and we've done a lot of research 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:42.520 into this and the fact that they just use an 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:46.959 old arrow chest as a coffin says to me that 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:49.960 nobody thought this was going to happen. They hadn't prepared 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:53.040 for it. And you know, Henry does go through with it, 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:56.920 and it must have been just beyond shocking. 0:08:57.000 --> 0:09:00.880 I think you speak about that retree beat back to 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:03.800 Hever Castle in this book. Obviously the House of Bolin 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:08.400 focuses on Hever particularly so for those unfamiliar with the 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:12.199 broad strokes of the story. After Anne comes back from France, 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:17.800 she's very sophisticated. She's learned European courtly manners and fashion 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:21.480 catches Henry's eye. And then can you take us through 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:24.240 the story about when she leaves court them. 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:27.760 Yeah, absolutely, and arrives at the English court in the 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:31.600 spring of fifteen twenty two, and she stands out from 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:34.440 the beginning because she has had these several years in 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:37.720 France and before that in the Netherlands, and she literally 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:41.840 has a you know, jennase qua. She's dressed in French fashion, 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:44.319 and she probably speaks with a bit of a French accent, 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:48.640 I like to think, and she has charisma. I would 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:51.680 really like to emphasize this about the Berlins, because yes, 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:55.120 they were brilliant and politically shrewd and all the rest 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:58.880 of it. But they were a charismatic lot, and I 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:01.600 think that it's a big part of the appeal for 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:04.480 Henry the Eighth. And all of the commentators at the 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:07.560 time are at pains to point out that Anne is 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:11.319 not beautiful. They all say the same one. She's got 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:14.559 dark hair when blonde hairs fashionable, her skin is swarthy, 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:17.560 not pale, and all the rest of it. But she 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:23.120 has this X factor, this allure, and soon she has 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:26.080 a whole host of male admirers. I think she's just 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:29.400 proof that, hey, looks don't matter. If you've got the 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:32.679 kind of self confidence and the charisma and you know 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:35.760 you're special, you're gonna get quite a few admirers. And 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:37.000 that's exactly what happened. 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:41.400 It's why men don't understand why women love Benedict Cumberbatch. 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:44.800 Sometimes it's not the traditional leading man looks. 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:49.280 I couldn't agree more. Absolutely, people who on paper shouldn't be, 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:53.080 you know, heart throbs, they end up being because of 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:55.840 that that kind of twinkle in the eye, that confidence, 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:59.400 and that's definitely what Anne had. And you know, one 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:02.520 of her first suters was sort of irish cousin of hers, 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:06.200 James Butler, so from her grandmother Margaret's family. But she 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:08.040 didn't like the idea. She thought, I can do better 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:09.439 than that. I don't really want to go and live 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:13.720 in Ireland. So she sets her sights higher to Henry Percy, 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:17.040 or Earl of Northumberland, one of the most eligible bachelors 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:18.800 in court, and he seems to have fallen in love 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:21.880 with her. But then Cardinal Woolsey, Henry the Yates Minister, 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:24.640 gets in the way of that. And then finally, in 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:29.120 about fifteen twenty six, so four years after Anne first 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:34.079 appeared at court, Henry notices her big time. He rides 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:37.880 out in this joust wearing an embroidered heart that's in 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:41.560 flames and a motto in French that means I did 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:44.680 declare I dare not. In other words, somebody has my heart, 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:47.400 but I darn't, So here it is everybody knows. By 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:50.480 then he's fallen for Anne Berlyn. And then the next 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:54.640 several years I spent Henry trying to, you know, just 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:59.800 persuade Anne to be his mistress because it's too difficult 0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:02.600 to get this annulment of his first marriage to Catherine 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:05.880 of Arrogant so he's absolutely he's trying for the annulment, 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:09.199 but he's desperate to have Anne. And this is when 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:12.720 her visits to Heava start become more and more frequent. 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:17.000 For those who maybe don't quite know how the story ends, 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:20.679 from Anne's perspective, it is a daunting task to think, 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:25.000 I'm going to cast aside this Spanish princess of major pedigree, 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:28.880 with major world allies and break from the Catholic Church. 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:33.320 Why wouldn't Anne just become Henry's mistress? Are there not? 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:36.120 I mean, there are some material benefits to that, but 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:37.480 there are costs as well. 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:42.840 Yeah, I think there are absolutely, And I think one 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:46.640 of the biggest reasons why Anne wouldn't be Henry's mistress 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:49.880 is she'd seen what happened to her sister. So Mary 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:53.719 Berlin was also a mistress of Henry the Eighth, one 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:57.200 of a few ladies at court who had that distinction. 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:03.280 And what it proved was that Henry quickly loses interest 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:06.400 when he has what he wants. He's a natural hunter. 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:10.240 Is that he wants something that's out of reach. And 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:13.160 with Mary Berlin, yet they have an affair for a while. 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:15.960 They may have had a child, her daughter Catherine could 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:19.880 have been Henry's and then she's discarded her reputation in ruins, 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:24.280 and Anne, from the very beginning, and to her great credit, 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:27.000 wants more for herself than that. It comes back to 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:30.280 that kind of self confidence, that self belief, which is 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:32.840 rare I think in a woman at this time, or 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:35.200 at least she might feel it, but society might not 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:38.320 let her express it. But Anne is backed by her 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:41.320 father in this. He doesn't want to see another daughter 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:45.400 ruined as well. I think there's another reason though. During 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:49.000 my research for the House of Berlin, I found evidence 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:52.440 to suggest that actually there was somebody else who had 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:55.600 Anne's heart, And it didn't seem at all to me 0:13:56.520 --> 0:14:00.080 that there was any love on Anne's part, or even 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:03.680 attraction really on her part towards Henry. It seems to 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:06.080 have been all one way. Now, the frustrating thing is 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:08.960 we have all of Henry's love letters to Anne, we 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:12.880 don't have her replies, so that is a one sided 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:15.240 story that history has left us. But I kind of 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:19.600 explored the possibility that she doesn't want Henry and she's 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:23.520 coming back to Heava genuinely because she wants to escape him, 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:27.760 and perhaps because Heaver is quite close to somebody who 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:28.760 does have her heart. 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:33.400 It's also a very tricky situation because Henry is the boss. 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:35.800 Even if you don't want to become his mistress, you 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:36.640 don't want to make him. 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:41.360 Upset exactly, and there's only so long you can say 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:45.040 no to the King of England. He especially like Henry, 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:48.800 who I kind of think is a spoilt child really, 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:52.520 and yes, he wants what he can't have, and then 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:57.000 he gets very, very angry and frustrated when things don't 0:14:57.000 --> 0:15:00.720 go his way, and he is dangerous. Early in his 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:04.480 reign he executes two of his father's ministers on no 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:08.640 charge whatsoever, really, and people know this by the time 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:11.800 that he starts courting Anne in the mid fifteen twenties, 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:16.240 and Thomas blind certainly knows it. And what a dangerous world. 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:18.600 He probably thinks. No, Anne would be better off just 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:21.920 marrying a local nobleman and steering well clear. 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:26.680 I mean, in retrospect, I think she would have been, I. 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:30.880 Know, and it's those great what if moments if only 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:34.600 she had been allowed to follow her heart, I think, yeah, 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:36.480 things would have turned out very differently. 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:40.800 And as you point out, Henry is not a patient man. 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:44.880 I always found it interesting when reading about him constructing 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:49.480 his castles, making his architects never in work overtime, because 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:52.480 when he had an idea, he wanted it immediately. 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:57.240 Absolutely so impatient. He doesn't like waiting, whether it's palaces 0:15:57.320 --> 0:16:00.640 or wives, he wants it now. And then yet the 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:02.680 thing he kind of sates his appetite, and then he 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:04.760 moves on to the next thing. And that's why, you know, 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:07.360 he builds more palaces than any other king. It's about 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:11.040 sixty of them in his repertoire. And it's just the 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:14.520 same with every He has these great passions and then 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:16.400 they burn out and then he's onto the next thing. 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:19.280 And I think Anne noticed that, and so did her 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:22.080 father and thinks, yeah, I'm going to tread a bit 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:25.640 carefully here, But as I said, there comes a point 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:28.800 where you have to succumb to the inevitable. And that's 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:31.120 eventually what happens with Anne. 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:41.520 So Henry, while Anne is at Heaver begins sending her 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:46.360 extravagant gifts to try to woo her. Yeah, it's a 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:49.400 fascinating period of history just because it feels so modern. 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:52.760 But what sort of gifts does a monarch send to 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:54.320 woo a would be mistress. 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:58.280 So money is one of the gifts, just yeah, give 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:03.280 me the cash, you know, jewelry, and there is one 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:06.879 particular gift that Henry, so the story goes, gives to 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:11.679 Anne and it causes some controversy. So Henry has a 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:16.199 rival for Anne's heart in the form of court poet 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:21.080 Thomas Wyatt, who grows up very close to where Anne lives. 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:26.280 Their childhood friends, their fathers are friends. And Henry gives 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:31.600 Ann a heart shaped ruby on a chain and then 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:36.120 he's playing bowls with his rival, Thomas Wyatt, and Thomas 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:40.720 Wyatt then just pauses in the game and reaches for 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:44.159 something in his pocket and it's that ruby on the 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:46.600 chain that Henry had given Anne, and he kind of 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:49.000 dangles it in front of Henry and look what Anne 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:52.600 gave me, something that she didn't care about. Clearly, Henry 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:57.919 is furious and he storms off the bowling green, refuses 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:01.040 to finish the match, and yeah, he's game. From that 0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:03.560 take forward, he's Okay, I've really got to try and 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:06.560 get Anne because clearly I have a rival in Wyatt. 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:08.800 So it's an intriguing little. 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:12.880 Story, especially because to fast forward a bit, it's Wyatt's son, 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:17.159 isn't it who leads the rebellion that almost costs AND's 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:21.200 daughter her life. Yeah, the Wyatts are always causing troubles 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:22.080 for these girls. 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:28.240 Those Wyatts. Yeah, they're troublesome. But it seems irresistible. But absolutely, 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:30.680 And this is the point you know, we were making 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:34.159 earlier about just how tightly knit this world is. You 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:36.399 see the same names, and then the sons of that 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:40.000 person you're cropping up again and again, and indeed the daughters. 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:45.240 So yeah, it's a very close knit world. The Tudor aristocracy. 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:51.320 Hever Castle is so vivid in this novel. Obviously you 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:55.520 are chief historian of historic royal palaces. I've been lucky 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:58.639 enough to visit hebre Castle, but even if I hadn't, 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:01.560 just reading this novel, I would have felt as though 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:04.280 I were there. But for those who haven't been lucky 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:07.600 enough to visit, can you describe what it is? Because 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:10.560 I think when people hear Castle they think different things. 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:13.720 Yes they do, they do. And I'm so pleased it 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:17.240 came across vividly few because that was absolutely my ambition 0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:20.399 for this book. In fact, I said to my editor, 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:22.359 I want heav to be like a character in the 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:26.560 book more than just a backdrop. I really wanted the 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:30.960 readers to feel immersed in this beautiful home. So Heva 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:34.639 is sort of like a fairytale castle. It's got turrets 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:39.200 and a moat and a drawbridge, it's got three port coluses. 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:44.320 But it is quite small and modest as castles go, 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:48.600 so it's nothing on the scale of say Hampton Court 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:52.040 or Annek Castle up in the northeast of England. It's 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:55.520 kind of pocket sized, so that makes it feel very intimate. 0:19:56.119 --> 0:19:58.520 Now it has been altered over the centuries, but in 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:02.359 recent years the curators lovingly restored it to how it 0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:04.199 would have looked in the time of the Blints, and 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:07.040 it is just amazing, even down to the rush matting 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:09.200 on the floors where you get the scent from that, 0:20:09.720 --> 0:20:13.280 and I just found it wonderfully evocative. I spent, as 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:16.040 you can imagine, a lot of time at Heaver when 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:19.159 I was researching this novel, and visiting it at different 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:22.320 times of the year was so important as well. It changes, 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:26.159 the smells, change the colors, the ivy on the outside 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:29.200 of the castle. It sort of turns red in autumn. 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:32.520 The inspiration for the book cover by the way Ah 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:35.160 and it was just a joy I did. Somebody once 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:36.800 told me, you know, if you're writing a novel, you 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:39.040 should set it somewhere that you want to spend time, 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:41.320 and so I thought, yeap, Heava, that would be a 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:43.120 nice place to hang out for a while. But I'm 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:46.720 really pleased it came across so vividly because it felt 0:20:46.760 --> 0:20:48.879 like that to me, and I got to know it 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:53.200 so well that, you know, even when I was writing, 0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:56.080 as I often was sitting here in my study at home, 0:20:56.440 --> 0:20:58.399 I could just close my eyes and imagine it and 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:02.040 smell the wood smoke as you pass through the courtyard 0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:04.840 and all the rest of it. So that was a 0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:07.040 joy bringing to life the world of Weaver. 0:21:08.480 --> 0:21:12.080 As chief Historian of historic Royal Palaces, what does that 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:13.320 job consist of? 0:21:14.200 --> 0:21:16.840 Honestly, it's the best job I've ever had, and I 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:19.959 kind of I've got major imposter syndrome about it because 0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:24.639 I get to research the history of the palaces. But 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:28.119 what I spend most of my time doing is communicating 0:21:28.119 --> 0:21:31.200 that history. So I do a lot of filming. There's 0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:34.119 a long running series Inside the Tower of London that 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:37.639 I'm part of. I make podcasts, I write content for 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:41.320 our website, I do social media videos. We've got a 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:43.919 YouTube channel now, so I spend a lot of my 0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:47.480 time talking about the history of the palaces, the people 0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:51.159 who lived in them, the events that took place. For 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:54.520 a historian is a dream job, and that's why I 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:59.320 just it's pinched me moment every day because I've worked 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:02.800 for the palaces eighteen years and it still feels so 0:22:03.040 --> 0:22:06.000 new so old at the same time, bits of it, 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:09.280 but it feels like there's always something new to discover. 0:22:09.520 --> 0:22:13.560 That Hampton Court has got one three hundred and sixty 0:22:13.640 --> 0:22:16.240 rooms and I still haven't been in all of them, 0:22:17.000 --> 0:22:18.920 and you know, that's just one of the sixth palaces. 0:22:19.040 --> 0:22:24.399 So it's an amazing, amazing privilege to be chief historian. Now, 0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:25.880 I kind of wish I could go back and tell 0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:29.960 my sort of hopeful but slightly disillusioned eighteen year old 0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:32.200 self while I was just applying for loads of jobs 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:34.800 and getting knockbacks that yeah, be all right, it's going 0:22:34.840 --> 0:22:35.280 to be okay. 0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:39.560 Did you learn anything new about Heaver while you were 0:22:39.600 --> 0:22:40.600 researching this book? 0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:46.000 I did new for me, probably not new for heav 0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:51.399 because the curators their knowledge is so extensive. But I 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:55.320 really went into every nook and cranny of that castle, 0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:59.959 and two particularly thrilling moments for me. We're standing in 0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:03.600 what's called the best bedchamber, which is probably the chamber 0:23:03.600 --> 0:23:07.280 where Thomas Berlin and his wife Elizabeth slept. But also 0:23:07.720 --> 0:23:11.840 it was a very hierarchical castle because the best bedchamber 0:23:11.840 --> 0:23:15.040 would then be given to whoever ranked the highest. So 0:23:15.160 --> 0:23:18.960 when Anne started to be courted by Henry the Eighth, 0:23:19.119 --> 0:23:21.560 she got bumped up and she got in the best bedchamber, 0:23:22.000 --> 0:23:24.760 and it was I've restored it so beautiful, and they 0:23:24.800 --> 0:23:28.200 think that it was in that room that Henry sorry 0:23:28.240 --> 0:23:30.920 that Anne would have been reading the love letters from Henry, 0:23:31.040 --> 0:23:33.399 and so to stand there and they've actually got some 0:23:33.480 --> 0:23:36.320 fact similars of those letters in the room, fine tingling, 0:23:36.720 --> 0:23:39.240