WEBVTT - Ep. 785: Another Attack On Our Public Lands 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.360 Okay, ladies and gentlemen, we have a special emergency FOP. 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:05.800 This has dedicated to all the listeners out there who 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:09.360 stay we should just stay out of politics. Join today 0:00:10.800 --> 0:00:16.280 by my friend Jeremy Romero, who's a hunter, conservationist and 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:20.440 serves with the National Wildlife Federation. And Jeremy is here 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:23.200 to talk about kind of what I view to be 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:28.200 like one of the most I do. Like, I'm trying 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:33.800 to think choose my words carefully here. Cynical, creative, and 0:00:33.920 --> 0:00:37.280 kind of like a little bit like of an exploitive. 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:42.240 Now explain why I'm using these words. A cynical, exploitive 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:47.839 public lands bill that has emerged without a lot of 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:51.199 fanfare and without a lot of reporting. If you, if 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:55.400 you follow the news you've been, you've seen that we've 0:00:55.480 --> 0:01:02.080 suffered another a number of conservation setbacks coming out of 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:11.240 the Trump administration where undoing the roleless rule. Okay, that's 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:15.720 going on. We had we'd put the Ambler Road, building 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:18.720 a big industrial corridor into Alaska's Brooks Range that had 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:22.520 again temporarily put to bed. Ambler Road is back on 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:25.480 the table in order to allow a foreign mining company 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:28.880 to drill and export a bunch of mineral wealth out 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:31.040 of Alaska and create a two hundred and fifty mile 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:36.199 industrial corridor going into one of our last vestiges of wilderness. 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:39.960 We have another phenomenal piece of wilderness called the Arctic 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:42.720 National Wildlife Refuge. We learned a couple of days ago 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:47.560 that they're they're looking to open up and reissue drilling leases. 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:48.200 In anwar. 0:01:50.240 --> 0:01:53.560 There was a lot of resource management plans, Bureau of 0:01:53.640 --> 0:02:00.560 Land Management resource management plans that just got undone, so Montana, Alaska, 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:04.600 North Dakota. So these were management plans that many stakeholders 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:07.120 came together. They served a lot of interests of hunters 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:11.240 and anglers that got thrown out the window. Okay, the 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:14.200 aim for everything we're talking about, what we're going to 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:15.880 talk about in a minute, The aim here is to 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:21.760 be able to a push by the administration to increase 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:29.040 resource extraction and industrialization. If you remember, back before a 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:31.240 lot of this stuff started brewing, a lot of this 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:35.600 stuff was whispers last June. But last June we saw 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:39.680 perhaps one of the most direct assaults on public lands, 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:43.920 and that was Utah Senator Mike Lee's pushed to sell 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:50.799 off a few million acres of public lands that got 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:57.200 enormous pushback. I would say, like enormous bipartisan pushback. We 0:02:57.240 --> 0:02:59.120 had seen that happen. Again, what year was it the 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:01.200 Chaf's one, Jared, I'm sorry, do you remember what year 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:03.760 Jason Chafis proposal which was remarkably similar. 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:09.600 Twenty seventeen sounds right, yeah, twenty seventeen. I think I 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:09.840 was right. 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:14.680 Around twenty seventeen, there was another proposal to sell millions 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:18.040 of acres of public land that was met with enormous 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:19.360 bipartisan pushback. 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:21.120 The media. 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:25.320 Seemed to be that the national media seemed to be 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:29.360 expo surprised by the fact that Hunter's co laced around 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:37.680 pushback on that issue that was by a Utah lawmaker 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:44.120 named Jason Chafits Senator Mike Lee. Just in June twenty 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:48.520 twenty five brought out a new plan to sell off 0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:51.240 millions of acres that had different sort of code words. 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:52.160 You know. 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:55.720 I find that these plans are a lot of this legislation, 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:58.000 and we'll get into this in greater detail with Jeremy. 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:02.280 A lot of the anti public lands legislation, anti wilderness 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:08.840 aarrea legislation will carry like a a it'll carry fashionable buzzwords. Okay, 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:12.160 So one of Mike Lee's early versions of the sell 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:17.760 off was like, was couched in this language around affordable housing. 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:20.160 But then when you look at the details of the bill, 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:25.240 it didn't really do much to address affordable housing. Before 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:33.760 it was in twenty seventeen, it was like extra or 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:36.640 excess public lands. We have excess public lands. We're going 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:39.280 to get rid of some of them. The bill we're 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:42.720 going to talk about now. It uses another currently fashionable 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:46.000 buzzword in order to accomplish something that really doesn't do 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:50.000 much to serve the buzzword that it's being marketed under. 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:54.920 But going back to June, this big sell off push 0:04:55.440 --> 0:05:00.080 was pulled, it was defeated. When that happened, a lot 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:02.120 of people I know in the conservation space were like, 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:06.520 We're cautious about declaring it a victory. They're like, that 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:08.800 was a we want to battle. We didn't win the war. 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:12.239 This will come back up very quickly. One might think 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:16.840 that Senator Lee, like it was kind of a bruising 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:20.960 on that. One might have thought he might retreat from 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:24.080 the idea altogether of kind of weakening protections. 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:27.400 But but but he hasn't. 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:33.839 He's he's he has a he's committed to the idea 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:39.839 of opening up, of weakening public lands protections, opening up 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:41.600 undeveloped lands to development. 0:05:41.760 --> 0:05:46.360 That just that's where he is. That's his commitment. Uh. 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:51.359 So we're looking at a new bill here that was 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:54.120 introduced on October second, and this is the one I 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:57.520 was saying that just hasn't, like, for whatever reason, hasn't 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:01.680 received a bunch of news. And I think it's because 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:05.720 it's entering an area that's quite clouded with all these 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:07.520 other things that I laid out, the role this rule 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:11.159 Ambler Road and why are resource management plans? So this 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:13.080 one's kind of flown a little bit under the radar. 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:16.440 And I've asked Jeremy Romero to come on. He was 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:19.360 the one that told me about it. I asked him 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:21.680 to come on and explain to me and explain to 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:29.560 our listeners what the Borderlands Conservation Act is all about. 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:35.000 And it ain't about conservation. So Jeremy, can you can 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:41.200 you talk people through what the Borderlands Conservation Act is, like, 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:43.039 what is it at face value? 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:46.200 And what is it actually about? And then we'll get 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:47.360 into some details. 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:50.600 Yeah, you bet, Steve, Thanks for having me on to 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:52.880 talk about this issue. You know, I think you said 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:56.120 it brilliantly. It's a it's an attack on public LANs. 0:06:56.200 --> 0:07:00.760 You know, Senator Lee, I think really took a stab 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:04.039 at at undermining public lands when we went through the 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:07.920 reconciliation process, and you know, the large effort to sell 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:11.560 off public lands, and essentially this is this is no different. 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:17.080 So in October, early October, Senator Lee introduced the Borderlands 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:20.000 Conservation Act with you know, in a nutshell, that bill 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:24.600 is focused on border security. Again, you said, and use 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:27.080 the phrase of kind of these these sexy terms, right, 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:31.240 these terms that are popular in society today, and border 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:33.840 security is one of those. And this bill is aimed 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:37.800 at at just that increasing border security along the northern 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:41.960 and southern borders in the United States, kind of creating 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:44.320 these hundred mile buffer zones in the northern and southern 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:48.640 borders and basically creates and gives Department of Homeland Security 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:51.960 the authority to manage these roads and an effort to 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:55.200 strengthen border security. And it does it by a number 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:58.680 of different measures that we'll talk about this in this conversation. 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:04.680 Really those measures, in my opinion, undermined the importance of 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:07.960 public lands and the protections forwarded to public lands, like 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:11.840 things like the nineteen sixty nineteen sixty four Wilderness Act. 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:14.320 Yeah, which are these points should we jump into first? 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:15.120 Here? 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:18.640 Yeah, let's just talk about this hundred mile buffer kind 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:23.280 of the rationale behind, you know, inventoring these illegal roads 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:24.400 and trails. 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:29.200 So yeah, I want to hit that because when we 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:33.920 talk about one hundred mile buffer, this will impact. You 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:37.079 have to appreciate like what we're talking about. So I'm 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:41.240 gonna tell people something obvious here. If we're talking about 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:43.640 if you look at a map of the United States 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:47.079 and then magined coming in from one hundred miles on 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:51.000 all of our borders north and south and Alaska, Okay, 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:56.520 you're taking in wilderness areas in Washington, You're taking in 0:08:56.559 --> 0:09:02.559 wilderness areas in Idaho, You're taking wilderness area is in Montana. 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:06.480 Jumping eastward from there, where this this grabs hold of 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:12.440 all of the boundary waters area. It would come into 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:18.840 areas in Maine National Parks, wilderness areas in California, wilderness 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:22.480 areas in Arizona, wilderness areas in New Mexico, Big Ben 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:28.240 National Park in Texas, Tungus Wilderness Area in Alaska, wrangle 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:31.320 Saint Elias Park and Preserve in Alaska. So this is 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:34.080 a I mean this you can one hand go like, oh, 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:35.600 it's a one hundred mile buffer, but you need to 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:37.760 appreciate what we're talking about when we talk about a 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:40.480 one hundred mile buffer coming in from our borders, like 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:44.400 it's it's grabbing onto a huge swaths of land. 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:48.240 Yeah, that's exactly right. And I'll note that the one 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:52.800 you know, the one type or the types of land jurisdictions, 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:56.280 that this bill is not specific to our tribal land, 0:09:56.760 --> 0:09:59.920 state lands, and private lands. Other than that, it's take 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:03.400 can you know, the stroke of a paint brush within 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:07.040 that hundred mile buffer, And any land that's administered by 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:09.520 the federal government under d o I and U s 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:12.920 d A is subject to these measures in this bill. 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:16.760 So as you mentioned everything, everything administered by d U I, 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:20.400 by us DA, all those national parks, all those uh 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:23.480 you know, forest Service units, all those b l M 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:28.120 Field offices, wilderness study areas, wilderness like, they are all 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:31.280 subject to the measures in this bill, all within that 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:33.679 hunter mile buffer, and those are there's a couple of 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:35.800 other key points when we get to the wilderness portion 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:38.320 of this that I'll also I'll make I'll make sure 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:41.680 to distinguish. But you know, basically within this hunter mile 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:45.079 buffer on the northern and southern boundaries, UH Department of 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:47.920 Homeland Security is going to work in coordination with d 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:51.080 U I and U s d A too, inventory what 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:54.640 they would consider illegal roads and trails that are been 0:10:54.800 --> 0:10:58.319 that have been created by illegal border crossings. And that's 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:01.560 important because one, how do we herman if in fact 0:11:01.679 --> 0:11:06.040 a road or a trail is created by illegal border crossing, 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:10.520 and if these agencies, if these land management agencies determine 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:14.559 that in fact these roads were created by illegal border crossing, 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:19.640 then it's providing DHS Department Homeland Security the authority to 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:24.680 then create and manage these roads as navigable roads for 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:30.520 the sake of border security. So installing infrastructure technology that 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:35.319 can monitor border security and illegal border crossings and put 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:38.040 and prevent those from happening in the future. And so 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:41.679 it really opens up this can of worms of you know, 0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:45.400 deciding whether or not these roads actually are illegal, and 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:48.000 whether or not these trails are illegal and if so, 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:51.880 be able to be managed, and it doesn't really consider 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:56.680 the impacts to developing these roads. You know, currently a 0:11:56.720 --> 0:11:59.520 lot of these agencies go through travel management plans where 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:02.839 they tory the road use system and determine whether or 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:08.400 not these roads are navigable or innavigable, and create this 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:12.120 kind of access plan, this map that you that I 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:15.920 that others can then access public plans, and they do 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:19.240 a pretty meticulous job of being able to lay out 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:22.240 this footprint of what's considered navigable. Right, you want to 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:24.640 you want to protect wildlife, you want to you know, 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:29.400 protect wildlife habitat, there's cultural resource protection when it comes 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:32.800 to managing these roads, and so allowing for this kind 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:39.280 of unregulated development of roads really I think puts a 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:43.040 lot of important things in the crosshairs along this buffer. 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:45.960 And and like you hinted to you, I mean one 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:50.000 hundred mile buffer to me, is is outrageous, right, I 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:53.160 mean we're talking from the southern the southern border to 0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:58.319 almost Tucson, Arizona. Right. It encapsulates a lot of country 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:02.600 that they are claiming be important for border security. And 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:05.679 in my perspective, I think it's a little outrageous to 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:08.200 think that a hundred mile buffer and all the different 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:12.800 types of land jurisdictions and land management UH land jurisdictions 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:15.760 within that hunter mile buffer are really going to lend 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:17.840 to increasing border security. 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:21.240 So I have struggle a little bit just to understand 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:24.160 even the logic there that it'd be that if you 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:27.320 were to determine if someone were to determine that a 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:31.440 road that an illegal road, say on BLM Land and 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:35.640 illegal road on BLM Land, or like an unregistered road 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:39.040 on BLM Land, or an illegal trail on BLM Land, 0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:44.960 that they determined to have been utilized by illegal immigrants 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:49.760 or for my for for illegal immigration of some part, 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:53.240 that that would then give you justification to go in 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:55.080 and make it into a road. 0:13:57.440 --> 0:13:58.199 Wilders exactly. 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:03.760 Yeah, in wilderness and non wilderness. It's it's mind boggling 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:08.320 to me to to think about how these how the 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:11.520 mandates in this bill and and those land management agencies, 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:14.440 how they will come to the conclusion saying that these 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:17.840 trails and these roads were created by illegal border crossing. 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:20.480 You know, how how do you determine that? Right? 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:20.720 Like? 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:23.400 That's I think that's kind of the big question I 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:25.520 have in my mind is you know, when it comes 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:27.440 to a trail, for instance, I mean you and I 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:31.880 hunt a lot where we're in places where you know, livestock, 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:34.600 whether that's a you know, a grazing allotment or what 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:36.920 have you, or in a lot of areas we tend 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:41.160 to occupy. You know, if cattle are utilizing a trail 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:45.800 that they've created, and you know, let's just say there's 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:48.200 a boot track on there, does that mean that that 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:50.840 road was used and created by illegals and now it 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:54.520 gets to be managed by Department of Homeland Security and 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:57.560 in a fashion that allows them to access you know, 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:01.480 these these areas. If a road was created by illegal 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:05.720 OHV use, or it was once determined to be navigable 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:09.600 and has since been deemed innavigable, so it's no longer 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:12.280 accessible to the public, how do you determine that that 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:15.720 road was road was created by by illegal border crossing 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:18.280 and then be able to reopen that road? 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:18.680 Right? 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:22.040 How The question I have next, next to what I 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:26.040 just pointed out, is then how do you enforce these 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:28.680 roads to be used for the intent in which the 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:33.000 bill describes and not for all this extracurricular activity like 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:37.360 illegal OHV use. I think there's I think there's a 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:40.640 bigger question to be had, which is who's gonna who's 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:43.440 gonna front the cost for developing these roads. I think 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:45.560 right now, when you look at the deferred maintenance to 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:50.960 agencies like uh for service in BLM, there's hundreds of 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:55.000 thousands of miles of roads that are deteriorating because these 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:57.840 agencies don't have the resources to manage the roads that 0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:00.840 they have considered and deemed to be navigable through these 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:05.440 travel management plans. And we're asking we're asking these agencies 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:09.240 to create more roads and take away from roads that 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:13.320 they've already seemed to be accessible and the management and 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:17.200 the resources you know that they need to manage those roads. 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:21.480 There's a lot to unpack there, and so I think 0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:23.280 there's a lot of questions, and I think the bill 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:28.960 doesn't do a great job of defining how these actions 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:32.280 are going to be conducted. And those are part of 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:34.120 the part of the many problems I have with the bill. 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:36.880 Yeah, in a minute, let's get into a little bit 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:40.040 of the how these bills come up, where they leave 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:43.360 so many details up to one's imagination, and that in 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:47.160 some ways was attributable to the sinking of the sell 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:51.160 off plan, where the sell off plan went through a 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:54.400 handful of versions. They had these permutations, and in the 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:56.960 end someone realized, and it was pointed out, and this 0:16:57.080 --> 0:16:59.800 was acknowledged by the office that put it forward. It 0:16:59.840 --> 0:17:03.560 was pointed out even though this was put together as 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:06.600 this idea of addressing affordable housing, and the way the 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:12.400 bill was written, you couldn't have prevented foreign governments from 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:16.679 buying the land. Right, So you wind up in this 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:19.320 thing like you're saying it's one thing, but then you're 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:23.399 not clarifying with enough level of detail about how it 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:25.720 would be determined. I would be able to take it 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:28.199 a little more seriously. If someone was talking about a 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:32.120 three mile buffer, a five mile buffer, a ten mile buffer, 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:33.920 I'd be able to look at it and be like, yeah, 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:36.600 I'm willing to at least take this at face value. 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:42.280 But when you've gotten one hundred miles north of the 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:48.439 border with Mexico or one hundred miles south of the 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:53.440 border in Idaho, like, at that point, I don't think 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:56.439 we're talking about immigration anymore, and so it opens up 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:59.000 this question of like, what is it really about. If 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:00.879 it was a five mile thing, I'd be like, Okay, 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:04.000 this is about immigration. One hundred miles is about something 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:06.280 entirely different, and we'll get to that in a minute. 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:09.280 But let's get into a couple of these components. One 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:12.720 of the ways that they're trying to sell this again 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:15.199 couching it in language that anyone would agree with. This 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:18.439 is like a tactic, right. You say, like, oh, border security, Well, 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:21.200 who wouldn't want border security? Right, must be a good 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:24.840 idea here. They're like, hey, this will help with search 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:29.960 and rescue. Explain that component. 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:33.879 Yeah, And it's important to note that the search and 0:18:33.920 --> 0:18:38.000 rescue piece is basically also tied to this amending the 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:38.720 Wilderness Act. 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:41.960 Okay, so I'm out of order. Then let's get into 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:43.520 amending the Wilderness Act. 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:47.320 You bet so. A big component of this bill is 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:50.879 to amend the nineteen six or nineteen sixty nineteen sixty 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:54.479 four excuse me, Wilderness Preservation Act to allow for the 0:18:54.600 --> 0:19:00.440 use of developing roads using motorized mechanized travel of under 0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:04.320 the hospice of search and rescue and border security, so 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:08.919 basically allowing the things that the Wilderness Act prevents for 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:13.280 the sake of border security. What's important to note is 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:18.360 that when it comes to search and rescue in wilderness areas, 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:22.280 a lot of the land use management agencies and local 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:26.280 law enforcement, local search and rescue already have plans in 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:32.639 place to one prevent more than is intended to when 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:38.240 it comes to you know, occupying and being in wilderness 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:43.160 areas to conduct those those search and rescue operations. So 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:47.720 they can already go in and use motorized mechanized travel 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:51.080 if it's deemed that they absolutely have to for the 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:54.359 sake of human life. They have these plans in place, 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:57.520 and they can go in there and they can fly 0:19:57.600 --> 0:20:01.159 a helicopter, they can take a uh, you know, like 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:04.479 a gurney that's that's got a wheel on it, they 0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:07.919 can travel in on potentially on four wheelers, or use 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:13.040 their motorized types of transportation in certain circumstances. These plans 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:18.240 are already coordinated and developed with those land use management agencies, 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:22.600 local law enforcement, search and rescue. And so what this 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:24.879 is trying to do is a you know, amend the 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:29.000 Wilderness Preservation Act to create those roads, to codify the 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:33.959 use of motorized mechanized operation in wilderness Act, which to 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:38.480 me is a really slippery slope. And earlier you mentioned 0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:42.240 like how these bills are written and how kind of 0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:45.679 things let's just say fly under the radar may not 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:50.400 be explicitly defined. This is an important piece because this 0:20:50.600 --> 0:20:55.080 with this section of the bill does not clarify is 0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:58.680 when it talks about amending the wilderness to create roads 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:03.000 motorized use with you know, for the sake of border security, 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:07.720 it does not explicitly mention that it's with that it's 0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:12.280 wilderness areas within the hundred mile buffer, right, It's just 0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:17.560 it's just amending the Wilderness Preservation Act. So technically it 0:21:17.600 --> 0:21:23.120 applies to all wilderness areas, you know, aside from those 0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:26.119 within that hundred mile buffer. So in my mind that 0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:31.120 means if you can justify that building roads in wilderness 0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:33.920 areas is for the sake of border security, it can 0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:36.359 be it can be any wilderness in our country. 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:45.840 Or building roads is helpful for search and rescue apparently exactly. Yeah, okay, 0:21:45.880 --> 0:21:47.960 we got into some of the details here. What is 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:52.040 your take the earlier I use like a term cynical, 0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:55.520 and I'm a little I'm not totally happy with word 0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:59.080 choice on that. But what you see is again and 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:02.640 again you see see these things that they're they're they're 0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:05.280 trying to couch it as one thing, but what they're 0:22:05.320 --> 0:22:09.639 talking about is something else. Okay, So here it's taking 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:12.240 this idea of border security, this idea of search and 0:22:12.359 --> 0:22:15.479 rescue and and and lo and behold, what does it 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:18.000 really come down to? It comes down to like weakening 0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:22.160 protections on wilderness areas and making it easier to. 0:22:22.280 --> 0:22:23.840 Develop and do road building. 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:30.320 Uh do you like in your view and your analysis 0:22:30.320 --> 0:22:32.840 of this, do you do you feel that that's fair? 0:22:33.000 --> 0:22:33.320 Like it? 0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:35.040 Do you feel that there really is I hate to 0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:37.600 use it, but like, is there like a sort of 0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:44.360 conspiracy of sorts of trying to use whatever tools are applicable, 0:22:44.480 --> 0:22:49.840 whatever national crises we have, affordable housing, border security, whatever 0:22:49.920 --> 0:22:54.000 it is, to try to just do anything to weaken 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:57.560 protections on wilderness areas and weakened protections on public lands. 0:22:57.680 --> 0:22:59.760 And if that's true, like what is the end game? Like, 0:22:59.760 --> 0:23:03.080 how does that ultimately get them what they want? 0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:05.920 Yeah? 0:23:05.960 --> 0:23:12.520 I mean I think, you know, from like the conspiracy perspective, 0:23:13.480 --> 0:23:18.159 it's hard not to think that there's these ulterior motives 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:22.240 when it comes to these types of bills and legislation. 0:23:22.680 --> 0:23:25.200 I mean we've seen time and time, you know, time 0:23:25.240 --> 0:23:29.640 and time again where individuals like Senator Lee or others 0:23:29.720 --> 0:23:33.560 just don't have the same perspective of public lands that 0:23:33.600 --> 0:23:36.840 you and I or others do, and therefore I think 0:23:37.080 --> 0:23:41.359 their perspective of public LANs is a much more you know, 0:23:41.520 --> 0:23:44.479 let's just call it an asset driven mindset, where they 0:23:44.480 --> 0:23:48.840 look at public lands and they see different types of 0:23:51.160 --> 0:23:54.760 investments that they can return on these assets, right, different 0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:58.240 types of ways that these lands can be more profitable 0:23:58.280 --> 0:24:01.240 than they already are than just create open spaces where 0:24:01.240 --> 0:24:03.880 we can recreate, where we can hunt, where we can fish. 0:24:03.920 --> 0:24:06.240 And in their minds, I don't believe that this is 0:24:06.280 --> 0:24:10.000 something that they enjoy seeing and how public lands are 0:24:10.119 --> 0:24:13.320 used are utilized, and you know, for that reason, I 0:24:13.320 --> 0:24:17.959 think we've seen these assaults on public lands through different 0:24:18.119 --> 0:24:22.280 different efforts, the reconciliation processes that you that you meant earlier. 0:24:22.640 --> 0:24:25.600 And so it's hard for me to think that these 0:24:25.640 --> 0:24:28.359 bills when I see them, are just focused on what 0:24:28.800 --> 0:24:32.359 the title of the bill is written as right I have. 0:24:32.720 --> 0:24:36.760 I can't help but think that there's that there's these 0:24:36.960 --> 0:24:41.760 these details, that there's these underlying efforts within within the 0:24:41.760 --> 0:24:46.160 these bills that are aimed at attacking and undermining public 0:24:46.280 --> 0:24:50.520 lands from multiple perspectives, like getting more access. Therefore you 0:24:50.560 --> 0:24:54.640 can potentially have non you know, you can have more 0:24:55.040 --> 0:25:00.199 resource extraction or irresponsible use of public lands. I think 0:25:00.200 --> 0:25:02.960 it's a slippery slope. And I think they're they're recognizing 0:25:03.040 --> 0:25:06.040