1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,360 Speaker 1: Okay, ladies and gentlemen, we have a special emergency FOP. 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: This has dedicated to all the listeners out there who 3 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: stay we should just stay out of politics. Join today 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 1: by my friend Jeremy Romero, who's a hunter, conservationist and 5 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 1: serves with the National Wildlife Federation. And Jeremy is here 6 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: to talk about kind of what I view to be 7 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: like one of the most I do. Like, I'm trying 8 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: to think choose my words carefully here. Cynical, creative, and 9 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: kind of like a little bit like of an exploitive. 10 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: Now explain why I'm using these words. A cynical, exploitive 11 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 1: public lands bill that has emerged without a lot of 12 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 1: fanfare and without a lot of reporting. If you, if 13 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: you follow the news you've been, you've seen that we've 14 00:00:55,480 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: suffered another a number of conservation setbacks coming out of 15 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: the Trump administration where undoing the roleless rule. Okay, that's 16 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: going on. We had we'd put the Ambler Road, building 17 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: a big industrial corridor into Alaska's Brooks Range that had 18 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: again temporarily put to bed. Ambler Road is back on 19 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: the table in order to allow a foreign mining company 20 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: to drill and export a bunch of mineral wealth out 21 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:31,040 Speaker 1: of Alaska and create a two hundred and fifty mile 22 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:36,199 Speaker 1: industrial corridor going into one of our last vestiges of wilderness. 23 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 1: We have another phenomenal piece of wilderness called the Arctic 24 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: National Wildlife Refuge. We learned a couple of days ago 25 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 1: that they're they're looking to open up and reissue drilling leases. 26 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 2: In anwar. 27 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: There was a lot of resource management plans, Bureau of 28 00:01:53,640 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: Land Management resource management plans that just got undone, so Montana, Alaska, 29 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: North Dakota. So these were management plans that many stakeholders 30 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: came together. They served a lot of interests of hunters 31 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: and anglers that got thrown out the window. Okay, the 32 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: aim for everything we're talking about, what we're going to 33 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: talk about in a minute, The aim here is to 34 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: be able to a push by the administration to increase 35 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: resource extraction and industrialization. If you remember, back before a 36 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: lot of this stuff started brewing, a lot of this 37 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: stuff was whispers last June. But last June we saw 38 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: perhaps one of the most direct assaults on public lands, 39 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 1: and that was Utah Senator Mike Lee's pushed to sell 40 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:50,799 Speaker 1: off a few million acres of public lands that got 41 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: enormous pushback. I would say, like enormous bipartisan pushback. We 42 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: had seen that happen. Again, what year was it the 43 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: Chaf's one, Jared, I'm sorry, do you remember what year 44 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: Jason Chafis proposal which was remarkably similar. 45 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 2: Twenty seventeen sounds right, yeah, twenty seventeen. I think I 46 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 2: was right. 47 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 1: Around twenty seventeen, there was another proposal to sell millions 48 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: of acres of public land that was met with enormous 49 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 1: bipartisan pushback. 50 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 2: The media. 51 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: Seemed to be that the national media seemed to be 52 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 1: expo surprised by the fact that Hunter's co laced around 53 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: pushback on that issue that was by a Utah lawmaker 54 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: named Jason Chafits Senator Mike Lee. Just in June twenty 55 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: twenty five brought out a new plan to sell off 56 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: millions of acres that had different sort of code words. 57 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 2: You know. 58 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: I find that these plans are a lot of this legislation, 59 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: and we'll get into this in greater detail with Jeremy. 60 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: A lot of the anti public lands legislation, anti wilderness 61 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: aarrea legislation will carry like a a it'll carry fashionable buzzwords. Okay, 62 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: So one of Mike Lee's early versions of the sell 63 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: off was like, was couched in this language around affordable housing. 64 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:20,160 Speaker 1: But then when you look at the details of the bill, 65 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: it didn't really do much to address affordable housing. Before 66 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: it was in twenty seventeen, it was like extra or 67 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: excess public lands. We have excess public lands. We're going 68 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,280 Speaker 1: to get rid of some of them. The bill we're 69 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 1: going to talk about now. It uses another currently fashionable 70 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: buzzword in order to accomplish something that really doesn't do 71 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: much to serve the buzzword that it's being marketed under. 72 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 1: But going back to June, this big sell off push 73 00:04:55,440 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 1: was pulled, it was defeated. When that happened, a lot 74 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: of people I know in the conservation space were like, 75 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: We're cautious about declaring it a victory. They're like, that 76 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: was a we want to battle. We didn't win the war. 77 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,239 Speaker 1: This will come back up very quickly. One might think 78 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 1: that Senator Lee, like it was kind of a bruising 79 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: on that. One might have thought he might retreat from 80 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: the idea altogether of kind of weakening protections. 81 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 2: But but but he hasn't. 82 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 1: He's he's he has a he's committed to the idea 83 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 1: of opening up, of weakening public lands protections, opening up 84 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 1: undeveloped lands to development. 85 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 2: That just that's where he is. That's his commitment. Uh. 86 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 1: So we're looking at a new bill here that was 87 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: introduced on October second, and this is the one I 88 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: was saying that just hasn't, like, for whatever reason, hasn't 89 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: received a bunch of news. And I think it's because 90 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:05,720 Speaker 1: it's entering an area that's quite clouded with all these 91 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: other things that I laid out, the role this rule 92 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 1: Ambler Road and why are resource management plans? So this 93 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: one's kind of flown a little bit under the radar. 94 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: And I've asked Jeremy Romero to come on. He was 95 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 1: the one that told me about it. I asked him 96 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: to come on and explain to me and explain to 97 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: our listeners what the Borderlands Conservation Act is all about. 98 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: And it ain't about conservation. So Jeremy, can you can 99 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: you talk people through what the Borderlands Conservation Act is, like, 100 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 1: what is it at face value? 101 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 2: And what is it actually about? And then we'll get 102 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 2: into some details. 103 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, you bet, Steve, Thanks for having me on to 104 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 3: talk about this issue. You know, I think you said 105 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 3: it brilliantly. It's a it's an attack on public LANs. 106 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 3: You know, Senator Lee, I think really took a stab 107 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 3: at at undermining public lands when we went through the 108 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 3: reconciliation process, and you know, the large effort to sell 109 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 3: off public lands, and essentially this is this is no different. 110 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 3: So in October, early October, Senator Lee introduced the Borderlands 111 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 3: Conservation Act with you know, in a nutshell, that bill 112 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 3: is focused on border security. Again, you said, and use 113 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 3: the phrase of kind of these these sexy terms, right, 114 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 3: these terms that are popular in society today, and border 115 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 3: security is one of those. And this bill is aimed 116 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 3: at at just that increasing border security along the northern 117 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 3: and southern borders in the United States, kind of creating 118 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 3: these hundred mile buffer zones in the northern and southern 119 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 3: borders and basically creates and gives Department of Homeland Security 120 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 3: the authority to manage these roads and an effort to 121 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 3: strengthen border security. And it does it by a number 122 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 3: of different measures that we'll talk about this in this conversation. 123 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 3: Really those measures, in my opinion, undermined the importance of 124 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 3: public lands and the protections forwarded to public lands, like 125 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 3: things like the nineteen sixty nineteen sixty four Wilderness Act. 126 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, which are these points should we jump into first? 127 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: Here? 128 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, let's just talk about this hundred mile buffer kind 129 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 3: of the rationale behind, you know, inventoring these illegal roads 130 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 3: and trails. 131 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: So yeah, I want to hit that because when we 132 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: talk about one hundred mile buffer, this will impact. You 133 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,079 Speaker 1: have to appreciate like what we're talking about. So I'm 134 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: gonna tell people something obvious here. If we're talking about 135 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: if you look at a map of the United States 136 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 1: and then magined coming in from one hundred miles on 137 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: all of our borders north and south and Alaska, Okay, 138 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: you're taking in wilderness areas in Washington, You're taking in 139 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:02,559 Speaker 1: wilderness areas in Idaho, You're taking wilderness area is in Montana. 140 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: Jumping eastward from there, where this this grabs hold of 141 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 1: all of the boundary waters area. It would come into 142 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: areas in Maine National Parks, wilderness areas in California, wilderness 143 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: areas in Arizona, wilderness areas in New Mexico, Big Ben 144 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: National Park in Texas, Tungus Wilderness Area in Alaska, wrangle 145 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 1: Saint Elias Park and Preserve in Alaska. So this is 146 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: a I mean this you can one hand go like, oh, 147 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: it's a one hundred mile buffer, but you need to 148 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: appreciate what we're talking about when we talk about a 149 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: one hundred mile buffer coming in from our borders, like 150 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: it's it's grabbing onto a huge swaths of land. 151 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly right. And I'll note that the one 152 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 3: you know, the one type or the types of land jurisdictions, 153 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 3: that this bill is not specific to our tribal land, 154 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 3: state lands, and private lands. Other than that, it's take 155 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 3: can you know, the stroke of a paint brush within 156 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 3: that hundred mile buffer, And any land that's administered by 157 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 3: the federal government under d o I and U s 158 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 3: d A is subject to these measures in this bill. 159 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 3: So as you mentioned everything, everything administered by d U I, 160 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 3: by us DA, all those national parks, all those uh 161 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 3: you know, forest Service units, all those b l M 162 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 3: Field offices, wilderness study areas, wilderness like, they are all 163 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 3: subject to the measures in this bill, all within that 164 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:33,679 Speaker 3: hunter mile buffer, and those are there's a couple of 165 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 3: other key points when we get to the wilderness portion 166 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 3: of this that I'll also I'll make I'll make sure 167 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 3: to distinguish. But you know, basically within this hunter mile 168 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:45,079 Speaker 3: buffer on the northern and southern boundaries, UH Department of 169 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 3: Homeland Security is going to work in coordination with d 170 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 3: U I and U s d A too, inventory what 171 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 3: they would consider illegal roads and trails that are been 172 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:58,319 Speaker 3: that have been created by illegal border crossings. And that's 173 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 3: important because one, how do we herman if in fact 174 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 3: a road or a trail is created by illegal border crossing, 175 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 3: and if these agencies, if these land management agencies determine 176 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:14,559 Speaker 3: that in fact these roads were created by illegal border crossing, 177 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 3: then it's providing DHS Department Homeland Security the authority to 178 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 3: then create and manage these roads as navigable roads for 179 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 3: the sake of border security. So installing infrastructure technology that 180 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:35,319 Speaker 3: can monitor border security and illegal border crossings and put 181 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 3: and prevent those from happening in the future. And so 182 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,679 Speaker 3: it really opens up this can of worms of you know, 183 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 3: deciding whether or not these roads actually are illegal, and 184 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 3: whether or not these trails are illegal and if so, 185 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 3: be able to be managed, and it doesn't really consider 186 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 3: the impacts to developing these roads. You know, currently a 187 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 3: lot of these agencies go through travel management plans where 188 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,839 Speaker 3: they tory the road use system and determine whether or 189 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 3: not these roads are navigable or innavigable, and create this 190 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 3: kind of access plan, this map that you that I 191 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 3: that others can then access public plans, and they do 192 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 3: a pretty meticulous job of being able to lay out 193 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 3: this footprint of what's considered navigable. Right, you want to 194 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 3: you want to protect wildlife, you want to you know, 195 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 3: protect wildlife habitat, there's cultural resource protection when it comes 196 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 3: to managing these roads, and so allowing for this kind 197 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 3: of unregulated development of roads really I think puts a 198 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 3: lot of important things in the crosshairs along this buffer. 199 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 3: And and like you hinted to you, I mean one 200 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 3: hundred mile buffer to me, is is outrageous, right, I 201 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 3: mean we're talking from the southern the southern border to 202 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:58,319 Speaker 3: almost Tucson, Arizona. Right. It encapsulates a lot of country 203 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 3: that they are claiming be important for border security. And 204 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 3: in my perspective, I think it's a little outrageous to 205 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 3: think that a hundred mile buffer and all the different 206 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 3: types of land jurisdictions and land management UH land jurisdictions 207 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 3: within that hunter mile buffer are really going to lend 208 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 3: to increasing border security. 209 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: So I have struggle a little bit just to understand 210 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: even the logic there that it'd be that if you 211 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 1: were to determine if someone were to determine that a 212 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: road that an illegal road, say on BLM Land and 213 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: illegal road on BLM Land, or like an unregistered road 214 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: on BLM Land, or an illegal trail on BLM Land, 215 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 1: that they determined to have been utilized by illegal immigrants 216 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: or for my for for illegal immigration of some part, 217 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: that that would then give you justification to go in 218 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 1: and make it into a road. 219 00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:58,199 Speaker 2: Wilders exactly. 220 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, in wilderness and non wilderness. It's it's mind boggling 221 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 3: to me to to think about how these how the 222 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 3: mandates in this bill and and those land management agencies, 223 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 3: how they will come to the conclusion saying that these 224 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 3: trails and these roads were created by illegal border crossing. 225 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 3: You know, how how do you determine that? Right? 226 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: Like? 227 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 3: That's I think that's kind of the big question I 228 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 3: have in my mind is you know, when it comes 229 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 3: to a trail, for instance, I mean you and I 230 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 3: hunt a lot where we're in places where you know, livestock, 231 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 3: whether that's a you know, a grazing allotment or what 232 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 3: have you, or in a lot of areas we tend 233 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 3: to occupy. You know, if cattle are utilizing a trail 234 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 3: that they've created, and you know, let's just say there's 235 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 3: a boot track on there, does that mean that that 236 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 3: road was used and created by illegals and now it 237 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 3: gets to be managed by Department of Homeland Security and 238 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 3: in a fashion that allows them to access you know, 239 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 3: these these areas. If a road was created by illegal 240 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 3: OHV use, or it was once determined to be navigable 241 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 3: and has since been deemed innavigable, so it's no longer 242 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 3: accessible to the public, how do you determine that that 243 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 3: road was road was created by by illegal border crossing 244 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 3: and then be able to reopen that road? 245 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 2: Right? 246 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 3: How The question I have next, next to what I 247 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 3: just pointed out, is then how do you enforce these 248 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 3: roads to be used for the intent in which the 249 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 3: bill describes and not for all this extracurricular activity like 250 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 3: illegal OHV use. I think there's I think there's a 251 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 3: bigger question to be had, which is who's gonna who's 252 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 3: gonna front the cost for developing these roads. I think 253 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 3: right now, when you look at the deferred maintenance to 254 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 3: agencies like uh for service in BLM, there's hundreds of 255 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 3: thousands of miles of roads that are deteriorating because these 256 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 3: agencies don't have the resources to manage the roads that 257 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 3: they have considered and deemed to be navigable through these 258 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 3: travel management plans. And we're asking we're asking these agencies 259 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 3: to create more roads and take away from roads that 260 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 3: they've already seemed to be accessible and the management and 261 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 3: the resources you know that they need to manage those roads. 262 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 3: There's a lot to unpack there, and so I think 263 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 3: there's a lot of questions, and I think the bill 264 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 3: doesn't do a great job of defining how these actions 265 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 3: are going to be conducted. And those are part of 266 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 3: the part of the many problems I have with the bill. 267 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, in a minute, let's get into a little bit 268 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: of the how these bills come up, where they leave 269 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: so many details up to one's imagination, and that in 270 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: some ways was attributable to the sinking of the sell 271 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: off plan, where the sell off plan went through a 272 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: handful of versions. They had these permutations, and in the 273 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: end someone realized, and it was pointed out, and this 274 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: was acknowledged by the office that put it forward. It 275 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: was pointed out even though this was put together as 276 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: this idea of addressing affordable housing, and the way the 277 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:12,400 Speaker 1: bill was written, you couldn't have prevented foreign governments from 278 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 1: buying the land. Right, So you wind up in this 279 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: thing like you're saying it's one thing, but then you're 280 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: not clarifying with enough level of detail about how it 281 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: would be determined. I would be able to take it 282 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,199 Speaker 1: a little more seriously. If someone was talking about a 283 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:32,120 Speaker 1: three mile buffer, a five mile buffer, a ten mile buffer, 284 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 1: I'd be able to look at it and be like, yeah, 285 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: I'm willing to at least take this at face value. 286 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: But when you've gotten one hundred miles north of the 287 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:48,439 Speaker 1: border with Mexico or one hundred miles south of the 288 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 1: border in Idaho, like, at that point, I don't think 289 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 1: we're talking about immigration anymore, and so it opens up 290 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: this question of like, what is it really about. If 291 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 1: it was a five mile thing, I'd be like, Okay, 292 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: this is about immigration. One hundred miles is about something 293 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: entirely different, and we'll get to that in a minute. 294 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: But let's get into a couple of these components. One 295 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 1: of the ways that they're trying to sell this again 296 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,199 Speaker 1: couching it in language that anyone would agree with. This 297 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 1: is like a tactic, right. You say, like, oh, border security, Well, 298 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: who wouldn't want border security? Right, must be a good 299 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 1: idea here. They're like, hey, this will help with search 300 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 1: and rescue. Explain that component. 301 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's important to note that the search and 302 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 3: rescue piece is basically also tied to this amending the 303 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 3: Wilderness Act. 304 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: Okay, so I'm out of order. Then let's get into 305 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: amending the Wilderness Act. 306 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 3: You bet so. A big component of this bill is 307 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 3: to amend the nineteen six or nineteen sixty nineteen sixty 308 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,479 Speaker 3: four excuse me, Wilderness Preservation Act to allow for the 309 00:18:54,600 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 3: use of developing roads using motorized mechanized travel of under 310 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 3: the hospice of search and rescue and border security, so 311 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 3: basically allowing the things that the Wilderness Act prevents for 312 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 3: the sake of border security. What's important to note is 313 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:18,360 Speaker 3: that when it comes to search and rescue in wilderness areas, 314 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 3: a lot of the land use management agencies and local 315 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 3: law enforcement, local search and rescue already have plans in 316 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 3: place to one prevent more than is intended to when 317 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 3: it comes to you know, occupying and being in wilderness 318 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 3: areas to conduct those those search and rescue operations. So 319 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 3: they can already go in and use motorized mechanized travel 320 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 3: if it's deemed that they absolutely have to for the 321 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 3: sake of human life. They have these plans in place, 322 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 3: and they can go in there and they can fly 323 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,159 Speaker 3: a helicopter, they can take a uh, you know, like 324 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,479 Speaker 3: a gurney that's that's got a wheel on it, they 325 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 3: can travel in on potentially on four wheelers, or use 326 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 3: their motorized types of transportation in certain circumstances. These plans 327 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 3: are already coordinated and developed with those land use management agencies, 328 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 3: local law enforcement, search and rescue. And so what this 329 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 3: is trying to do is a you know, amend the 330 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 3: Wilderness Preservation Act to create those roads, to codify the 331 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:33,959 Speaker 3: use of motorized mechanized operation in wilderness Act, which to 332 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 3: me is a really slippery slope. And earlier you mentioned 333 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 3: like how these bills are written and how kind of 334 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,679 Speaker 3: things let's just say fly under the radar may not 335 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 3: be explicitly defined. This is an important piece because this 336 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 3: with this section of the bill does not clarify is 337 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,680 Speaker 3: when it talks about amending the wilderness to create roads 338 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 3: motorized use with you know, for the sake of border security, 339 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 3: it does not explicitly mention that it's with that it's 340 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 3: wilderness areas within the hundred mile buffer, right, It's just 341 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 3: it's just amending the Wilderness Preservation Act. So technically it 342 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:23,120 Speaker 3: applies to all wilderness areas, you know, aside from those 343 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 3: within that hundred mile buffer. So in my mind that 344 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:31,120 Speaker 3: means if you can justify that building roads in wilderness 345 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 3: areas is for the sake of border security, it can 346 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 3: be it can be any wilderness in our country. 347 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: Or building roads is helpful for search and rescue apparently exactly. Yeah, okay, 348 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: we got into some of the details here. What is 349 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: your take the earlier I use like a term cynical, 350 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: and I'm a little I'm not totally happy with word 351 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: choice on that. But what you see is again and 352 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,640 Speaker 1: again you see see these things that they're they're they're 353 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: trying to couch it as one thing, but what they're 354 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 1: talking about is something else. Okay, So here it's taking 355 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: this idea of border security, this idea of search and 356 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,479 Speaker 1: rescue and and and lo and behold, what does it 357 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: really come down to? It comes down to like weakening 358 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 1: protections on wilderness areas and making it easier to. 359 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 2: Develop and do road building. 360 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: Uh do you like in your view and your analysis 361 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: of this, do you do you feel that that's fair? 362 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 2: Like it? 363 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: Do you feel that there really is I hate to 364 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: use it, but like, is there like a sort of 365 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:44,360 Speaker 1: conspiracy of sorts of trying to use whatever tools are applicable, 366 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: whatever national crises we have, affordable housing, border security, whatever 367 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: it is, to try to just do anything to weaken 368 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: protections on wilderness areas and weakened protections on public lands. 369 00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: And if that's true, like what is the end game? Like, 370 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 1: how does that ultimately get them what they want? 371 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 2: Yeah? 372 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 3: I mean I think, you know, from like the conspiracy perspective, 373 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:18,159 Speaker 3: it's hard not to think that there's these ulterior motives 374 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 3: when it comes to these types of bills and legislation. 375 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 3: I mean we've seen time and time, you know, time 376 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,640 Speaker 3: and time again where individuals like Senator Lee or others 377 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 3: just don't have the same perspective of public lands that 378 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 3: you and I or others do, and therefore I think 379 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 3: their perspective of public LANs is a much more you know, 380 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,479 Speaker 3: let's just call it an asset driven mindset, where they 381 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 3: look at public lands and they see different types of 382 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 3: investments that they can return on these assets, right, different 383 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 3: types of ways that these lands can be more profitable 384 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 3: than they already are than just create open spaces where 385 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 3: we can recreate, where we can hunt, where we can fish. 386 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 3: And in their minds, I don't believe that this is 387 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 3: something that they enjoy seeing and how public lands are 388 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 3: used are utilized, and you know, for that reason, I 389 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:17,959 Speaker 3: think we've seen these assaults on public lands through different 390 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 3: different efforts, the reconciliation processes that you that you meant earlier. 391 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 3: And so it's hard for me to think that these 392 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 3: bills when I see them, are just focused on what 393 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 3: the title of the bill is written as right I have. 394 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 3: I can't help but think that there's that there's these 395 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 3: these details, that there's these underlying efforts within within the 396 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 3: these bills that are aimed at attacking and undermining public 397 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 3: lands from multiple perspectives, like getting more access. Therefore you 398 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,640 Speaker 3: can potentially have non you know, you can have more 399 00:24:55,040 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 3: resource extraction or irresponsible use of public lands. I think 400 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 3: it's a slippery slope. And I think they're they're recognizing 401 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 3: that they have to be a little bit craftier, a 402 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 3: little bit more creative and how they attack public lands. 403 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 3: And so you know, you said it, you said it 404 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 3: spot on, Like using terms like affordable housing, border security. 405 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 3: I think terms that maybe hit hit near and dear 406 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 3: to a lot of Americans, you know, lives and homes. 407 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 3: Like I do think by trying to create these kind 408 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 3: of false narratives, by trying to get people on board 409 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,880 Speaker 3: for these ideas that really aren't the root of what 410 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 3: is intended by these pieces of legislation, I can't help 411 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 3: I can't help but think there's there's more to it 412 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 3: than than what we're reading. 413 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't want to use too hyperbolic of language here, 414 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: like like I just want to, you know, acknowledge these 415 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: things are coming from you know, patriotic people who no 416 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,199 Speaker 1: doubt love their families and love their communities. It's just 417 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 1: we're like ideologically opposed an issue. My view is that 418 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 1: undeveloped landscapes are of extreme value and will become more 419 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: and more valuable over time, and that preserving them. Conserving 420 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 1: them comes at no cost to us. They're still there, 421 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: they will still be there later on. Once as the 422 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 1: world gets developed, as the nation gets developed, as our 423 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: last wildernesses get developed, will burned through an asset and 424 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: will later regret what we did. And I think that 425 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: there are some activities hunting, fishing, hiking, those are things 426 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: that I'm interested in. There are some activities that can 427 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 1: go on right now without having adverse impact on these 428 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: great American assets. So I don't want to when I 429 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:49,959 Speaker 1: use the word conspiracy, I don't want to act like 430 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,919 Speaker 1: someone's objective in putting this forward, that the objective is 431 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,439 Speaker 1: to be like evil or something. It's just like a 432 00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 1: different thing. Some people look at undevelop landscape and they 433 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: see wasted opportunity. I look at undeveloped landscape, and I 434 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:10,400 Speaker 1: see an incredible asset in the nation's bank that can 435 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: bring enjoyment and mental health and physical health to all 436 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: Americans while we hold it. And it might be h 437 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 1: and I know, like without a doubt to me, will 438 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: be of far more value to future generations than it 439 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,679 Speaker 1: is to us now. And and in in our in 440 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: our undeveloped landscapes are at their most valuable state as 441 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: they sit, right, it's like it's an asset. So yeah, 442 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: I don't want to put this in terms of of 443 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: good versus evil. It's like it's like it's an ideological 444 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: battle with real with real results, like like real things 445 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:48,919 Speaker 1: are pivoting on this. 446 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 2: Okay, what now? 447 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 1: And then you see where people put forward pieces of 448 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:04,719 Speaker 1: legislation that you know aren't to be taken seriously, like 449 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 1: people do it. There's a performative quality to some legislation. 450 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 1: When there was talk of giving an example, when some 451 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 1: guy put forth legislation that would have put Trump on 452 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 1: Mount Rushmore, it was performative, right for a lot of 453 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 1: people that it was good for a laugh. It sparked 454 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: a lot of conversation like is there really room on 455 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: Mount Rushmore? What is Mount Rushmore made of? Where would 456 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,479 Speaker 1: you put it? What's the history of Mount Rushmore? But 457 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: in the end, it was like a performative gesture. It 458 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: was never something that was meant to be advanced and 459 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 1: signed into law. 460 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 2: Right, is this is this like making a statement? 461 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: Is it trying to like advance an idea that future 462 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: generations might pick up on? 463 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 2: Like what is this? Is this serious? 464 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 3: I think it can very well be serious, and I 465 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 3: do think it's somewhat performative. I think it's you know, 466 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 3: Senator Lee and other co sponsors, you know, diping their 467 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 3: their toe in the water to do a temperature check 468 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 3: and see how a bill like this is perceived and 469 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 3: whether or not it's going to get the support and 470 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 3: the attention to gain some traction and potentially move forward. 471 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 3: I hope it's it's kind of all smoke no fire 472 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 3: for a lot of the reasons that we've been talking about. 473 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 3: You know, it's it's interesting when you look at this 474 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 3: bill to see who the co sponsors are. And I 475 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 3: say that because there's only one co sponsor that's occupying 476 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 3: a state that is relative to the language and this bill, 477 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 3: and that Senator Cruise out of Texas. You don't see 478 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 3: other Republican or Democratic senators along these these border states 479 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 3: that are co sponsoring this bill. 480 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 1: Well, that's funny you mentioned that, because I mean Utahs, 481 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 1: it's well outside of the hundred Senator Lee's state of Utahs, 482 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 1: it's well outside the buffer. I see your representative from 483 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: Wyoming sits outside of the buffer. But you're right, Senator 484 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: Ted Cruz of Texas is has portions of his state 485 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: in the buffer zone and the very generous buffer zone. 486 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 3: That's right, And you don't see individuals like Senator Danes, 487 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 3: Senator she He, Senator Rish, like you know, you know, 488 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 3: those senators on the northern part of the of the border, 489 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 3: those people who you would who you would think if 490 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 3: this was an issue that was really important, you would 491 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 3: think that the states that are going to be impacted 492 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 3: by this legislation would have more of a of a 493 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 3: perspective on the bill. Maybe that's a maybe that's a sign, right, 494 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 3: Like maybe that's a sign that this this bill really 495 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 3: is just kind of an attention seeker and not going 496 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 3: to get the traction that or the seriousness that people 497 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 3: are going to think when they read it. And for 498 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 3: that reason, like maybe that's why those individuals don't, you know, 499 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 3: aren't sponsoring the bill. And you know, obviously that's me 500 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 3: just being you know, rather presumptuous. But I think when 501 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 3: I when I see the lack of those co sponsors, 502 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 3: I just have to ask those questions. 503 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 2: Got it? 504 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: And what do you think will happen? Like what's the 505 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: next step for a piece of legislation like this? Like 506 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 1: remember that remember that cartoon and your little kid, I'm 507 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: just a bill on Capitol. 508 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 2: Hill Like like what uh, like, what's what's next? 509 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 3: Well, it was it was refer to the Committee of 510 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 3: Energy and Natural Resources. So, amongst all the craziness that's 511 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 3: happening in DC right now, this bill has to be 512 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 3: put on the calendar by by E and R, by 513 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 3: sending E and R. And then once it's there, they 514 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 3: have to to listen to the bill and they have 515 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 3: to vote on it to pass it out of committee, 516 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 3: and then there it goes on its own kind of 517 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 3: trajectory to potentially being voted on on the Senate floor. 518 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 3: Has to have a house companion. You know, it still 519 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 3: has a long route before it's even i would say, 520 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 3: remotely considered serious. But the fact that it was introduced 521 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 3: is serious enough for me to want to talk to. 522 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 2: You about it. 523 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this will come up under an early and 524 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: an early person that will get a look at this 525 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: as Senator Heinrich from New Mexico, who has you know, 526 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 1: who represents landscape within this buffer. He's a big oh, 527 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: you know, like a very informed, very dedicated defender of 528 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 1: public lands. 529 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 2: Like, what's his take on this going to be? 530 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 3: Well? I imagine Senator Heinrich that, as you mentioned as 531 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 3: a champion for conservation, champion for public lands, somebody who 532 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 3: you know gets out on hunts and fish fishes on 533 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 3: our public lands. I think when he sees a bill 534 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 3: like this, he's gonna ask a lot of questions and 535 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 3: he's gonna pick it apart, kind of as we've been 536 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 3: picking it apart on this conversation. I don't think a 537 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 3: bill like this is going to actually, I know a 538 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 3: bill like this is not going to land well with 539 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 3: with Senator him Rick. I think it will do a 540 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 3: brilliant job of asking those important underlying questions of the 541 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 3: intention and rationale of this bill. And you know, with 542 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 3: that being said, I hope the result is is the 543 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 3: bill doesn't move out of committee and is essentially dead 544 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 3: upon arrival. 545 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it is, man, it's like a very interesting 546 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: and like I said, I didn't know about it, and 547 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 1: you know we were together right around this time when 548 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 1: this came out. You're the one that explained it to me, 549 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: and I thought that regardless of where it lands, and 550 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: it's it's very early to say, it's a very it's 551 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 1: an interesting civics lesson and it's an interesting look into 552 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: how people are. And it's the point I keep making 553 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: an interesting look at how people could have a historic 554 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: extra grind, like a career long set of goals. In 555 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,959 Speaker 1: this case, if your career long set of goals is 556 00:33:55,080 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 1: to reduce protections on public lands and open up developant 557 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 1: and industrialization of wildlands, that's like the career long goal. 558 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: The way in which you can look for opportunities in 559 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 1: the national dialogue to be like, oh, that's how I'm 560 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 1: going to talk about my perennial issue, and then the 561 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 1: conversation changes and there's like a lot of talk about 562 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:22,360 Speaker 1: affordable housing. 563 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,399 Speaker 2: Let's say that's how. 564 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,799 Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about my perennial issue, and then 565 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: there's a lot of talk about illegal immigration. That's how 566 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,799 Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about my perennial issue. And it 567 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 1: brings to mind this analogy of that the bottle of 568 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,800 Speaker 1: the wine stays the same, but you continue to apply 569 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 1: a new label onto that wine. And so it's just 570 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 1: as it's a fascinating glimpse into the thinking here, I 571 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: hope listeners like give like start paying more attention to 572 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,360 Speaker 1: that in the years that are coming, as we continue 573 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 1: to have these conversations and thank you Jeremy to come 574 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: on and explaining this and telling me about it again. 575 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 1: I think it's, like I said, if nothing else, is 576 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:08,360 Speaker 1: a great civics lesson for people. 577 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I uh, I really appreciate you letting me come 578 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:14,800 Speaker 3: on and talk about the bill. You know, any attack 579 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,319 Speaker 3: on public land is important to me to get out 580 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,880 Speaker 3: there and and and talk about and advocate for public 581 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 3: lands and the right to hunt and fish and protecting 582 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:25,919 Speaker 3: these areas for future generations. So we're going to keep, 583 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:28,680 Speaker 3: you know, our eye on this bill. We're going we're 584 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 3: going to do our due diligence to to make sure 585 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 3: a bill like this doesn't doesn't have a future and 586 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 3: you know in the future, you know, keeping keeping ah, 587 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 3: you know, keeping a close eye on legislation that comes 588 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 3: out and looking at how they are somewhat uh, you know, 589 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 3: disguised in different ways. And I recommend people do their 590 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 3: their due diligence and look at look at bills, look 591 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 3: at legislation, not just for what the title of the 592 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,359 Speaker 3: legislation is, but what the actual action items in legislation are. 593 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 3: And I encourage you to be active. Reach out to 594 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 3: you or you know, your congressional members, and you know 595 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,320 Speaker 3: be be an engaged member of society. I think has 596 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 3: the reconciliation process and the public lands sealoff kind of 597 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 3: played out, we saw a tremendous amount of support from 598 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 3: everybody on both sides of the aisle, you know, whether 599 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 3: you whether you hunt and fished or didn't like it. 600 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,360 Speaker 3: We all came together and pushed back on the public 601 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 3: land sealoff and it was an extraordinary thing to see. 602 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,399 Speaker 3: And I just hope that we can continue to have 603 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 3: those shared visions when it comes to pieces of legislation 604 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,400 Speaker 3: like this. So Steve, again, I think I thank you 605 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,919 Speaker 3: for letting me come on and talk about this bill, 606 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:43,880 Speaker 3: and we'll just keep tracking, keep tracking it. 607 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:49,240 Speaker 1: Okay, uh again you're hearing from Jeremy Romero from the 608 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 1: National Wildlife Federation, a very avid. 609 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,320 Speaker 2: Hunter angler out of New Mexico. Thank you, thanks again, Jeremy. 610 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 3: Thanks