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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: In the last days shocking and let me say, disgusting.

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Speaker 2: Jail text of baby killer mom Susan Smith. Remember her,

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Speaker 2: she drowned her two children. This woman, it never ends

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Speaker 2: with her. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I

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Speaker 2: want to thank you for being with us. Killer Mom

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Speaker 2: Susan Smith, who's round her two little boys in South Carolina,

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Speaker 2: is raking in I can't believe this. I have to

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Speaker 2: go to let's see four years of undergrad three years

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Speaker 2: of law school, and three years of graduate law school

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Speaker 2: at NYU. That's four plus three US ten years to

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Speaker 2: make a living. This woman is raking in thousands of

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Speaker 2: dollars from lovelorn men, promising she will quote be with them.

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Speaker 2: I think we all know what that means when she

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Speaker 2: ever gets out of prison. Yes. Yes, Transcripts have been

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Speaker 2: obtained of hundreds of voice and text messages. Smith has

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Speaker 2: traded with love sick men while she's behind bars.

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Speaker 1: She gets and.

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Speaker 2: Sends around twenty texts a day, spending hours talking on

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Speaker 2: the phone to love sick guys who engage in sex

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Speaker 2: talk with her, and these guys range from age twenty seven.

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Speaker 2: Go go find a young woman your own age, Repeat's

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Speaker 2: sake twenty seven and mid sixties. They send money to

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Speaker 2: her prison account and she texts about how she wants

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Speaker 2: to be with them and what she wants to do

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Speaker 2: to them when she gets out. Okay, reality check, this

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Speaker 2: is who Susan Smith really is.

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Speaker 3: Love.

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Speaker 4: He's a lady got about and some guy dum to

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Speaker 4: a red light with her car with.

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Speaker 5: Her two kids in it.

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Speaker 4: The need to golf, and he got out of call

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Speaker 4: here at Ohio and he got let.

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Speaker 5: Her call it.

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Speaker 4: I don't I need to go along, get down here.

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Speaker 6: An carry, but we need a Maga proty day.

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Speaker 5: What color was it?

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Speaker 4: A burgundy Maga Protegee? We don't get him?

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Speaker 7: Going pay him?

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Speaker 4: I got two.

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Speaker 2: I love that degree of detail. You know. I don't

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Speaker 2: even know where to go first because I've got such

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Speaker 2: awesome experts, But I'm going to go first with Chris mcdonna.

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Speaker 2: He is the director of Cold Case Foundation. Okay, don't care,

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Speaker 2: former homicide detective, starting to care, getting warm, getting warm,

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Speaker 2: getting hotter. He has his own YouTube channel, the Interview

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Speaker 2: Room where I found him. You can find him at

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Speaker 2: Coldcase Foundation dot org or on the Interview Room. Former

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Speaker 2: Homicide detective three hundred ish homicide scenes under his belt.

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Speaker 2: Chris mcdonna, don't you love the degree of detail?

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Speaker 1: Hey?

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Speaker 2: You know what send me? Sometimes you got to hear

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Speaker 2: the best stuff. Can you play that one more time? Listen,

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Speaker 2: my love?

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Speaker 4: And he's a lady you come on, got dolar And

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Speaker 4: she's some guy dumping into a red light with her

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Speaker 4: car with her two kids in it, and.

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Speaker 6: He's took off.

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Speaker 4: She got out of call here at Ohio Layo, let

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Speaker 4: her call it. I don't rhy I need to go along,

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Speaker 4: you know, down here and a car is what we

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Speaker 4: need to add. A maga protegee. What color was it?

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Speaker 4: A burgundy maga protege.

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Speaker 7: We don't get him going pay him?

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Speaker 2: They got take I'll call all the detail, Chris mcdonna.

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Speaker 2: She's quote real hysterical and you need to call himlong

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Speaker 2: and get him down here right now. And you hear

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Speaker 2: her feeding details in the background.

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Speaker 8: Nancy, Wasn't that the narrative that captivated America?

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Speaker 2: How can you be so calm?

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Speaker 8: You know, we just get used to it. Unfortunately, right

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Speaker 8: it's when.

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Speaker 2: Somebody still get very angry, very angry. And I know

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Speaker 2: the end of this story.

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Speaker 1: But the detail.

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Speaker 2: Have you ever seen perps and they will spin you

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Speaker 2: a yarn with such incredibly rich detail.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, and typically that detail, if it's that minutia and

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Speaker 8: that amount, is typically a sign of deception. And she

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Speaker 8: kicked it off right.

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Speaker 2: From that nine one one call from the beginning, the beginning,

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Speaker 2: running up to somebody's house talking about some guy jumps

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Speaker 2: out and you know this occurs in rural Union County,

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Speaker 2: South Carolina, near the John D. Long Lake. And you know,

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Speaker 2: hold on, Chris McDonald, where where do you live, Chris?

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Speaker 7: Well?

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Speaker 8: Right now, I'm in Arizona, but I lived in South

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Speaker 8: Carolina right there in Mount Plus.

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Speaker 2: You're very familiar with this area. Let me go to

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Speaker 2: another country boy like this country girl right here. Just

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Speaker 2: got Morgan joining me, although he's gotten pretty high falutin.

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Speaker 2: Professor Forensis, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet,

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Speaker 2: still waiting on another book to come out, host of

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Speaker 2: Bodybag's hit podcast. This area. Chris McDonough has lived in

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Speaker 2: South Carolina. I've gone to this scene before. It's extremely rural,

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Speaker 2: and I'm supposed to believe a guy jumps out of

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Speaker 2: what from behind a stop sign and hijacks her car

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Speaker 2: and takes off with the children clearly in the back seat,

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Speaker 2: two little boys.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, what are the odds that you're going to have

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Speaker 9: somebody that wants to do this kind of harm, whether

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Speaker 9: or not they had an awareness that, you know, these

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Speaker 9: poor little angels were buckled down in those back seats.

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Speaker 9: The fact that you would have this kind of aggressive

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Speaker 9: behavior in that location where she was specifically targeted as

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Speaker 9: an investigator, I'm certainly going to raise an eyebrow and

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Speaker 9: I'm going to take a long look at what she

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Speaker 9: has to say, because, as you and I both know, Nancy,

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Speaker 9: the line share, the line share of home sides that

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Speaker 9: we talked about have some kind of familial connection. That

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Speaker 9: means that you're around intimates those individuals that are most important.

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Speaker 9: So you're going to tell me that a random stranger

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Speaker 9: just came up and kidnapped these babies and run off

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Speaker 9: with them and left her standing on the side of

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Speaker 9: the road weeping.

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Speaker 2: Now, did you hear what he just did? Chris mcdonah,

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Speaker 2: I am going along with everything he says, but he's

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Speaker 2: a wilely one. You got to really watching watch what

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Speaker 2: Joe Scott says. I agree with the whole rural aspect.

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Speaker 2: But did you hear him say if the unknown male

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Speaker 2: assailant noticed the children in the back seat. I'm looking

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Speaker 2: right now at a ninety four Mazda Protege. You can

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Speaker 2: see straight into the back seat from every angle of

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Speaker 2: the car. It's not like you know, you see those

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Speaker 2: black su these with tended windows, you can't see what's

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Speaker 2: going on in there. No, you can see exactly what's

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Speaker 2: going on in the back seat. And I'm looking at

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Speaker 2: a shot from the distance, I can see through the

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Speaker 2: back window, through the back dash, and through the other

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Speaker 2: side of the car. Whoever took the car could definitely

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Speaker 2: see that children were strapped into car seats in the

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Speaker 2: back seat. I mean, okay, you know what, Let's take

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Speaker 2: a listen to the nine one one call.

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Speaker 5: Listen when a by golehead did it with a black

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Speaker 5: mail driving a Burnandi Protege, a firm did one fine.

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Speaker 3: They had two juvenil waiting ones fine for one underd

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Speaker 3: or smile children.

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Speaker 4: These are her children.

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Speaker 5: And she jumped out of the car, and he took

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Speaker 5: the car with the children, and he hated toy Chestram.

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Speaker 4: Are the victory of the.

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Speaker 7: Family.

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Speaker 3: When I gathered by the call.

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Speaker 1: They are not.

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Speaker 5: This is a stranger that had jumped in the lady's

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Speaker 5: car at a red light, and she jumped.

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Speaker 2: Out, I mean really, Tara, and I'm leading up to

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Speaker 2: what Susan Smith is doing right now. And let me

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Speaker 2: tell you that involves six different men, that said Tara

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Speaker 2: Malick joining me out of Boise, Idaho co owner Smith

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Speaker 2: and Malik, former state and federal prosecutor.

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Speaker 1: Tara once again blamed the black man. I remember when

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Speaker 1: this happened.

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Speaker 2: I was trying a case and I looked over at

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Speaker 2: my friend, my colleague, who went on to be a joke,

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Speaker 2: I might add, and I went, Herman, have you seen

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Speaker 2: the composite of the guy that Susan Smith described? And

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Speaker 2: he went, yeah, I know what you're going to say,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, it looks just like you. It looked just

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Speaker 2: like Herman Sloan, my trial partner who had come into

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Speaker 2: court to.

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Speaker 1: Bail me out of some sling.

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Speaker 2: I got in with the judge with some appellate law

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Speaker 2: trying to suggest that I was right and whatever I did,

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Speaker 2: but he went, yeah, I've heard I looked just like

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Speaker 2: this Susan Smith park and he did, I mean, think

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Speaker 2: about it, Tara, An innocent person could have been arrested

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Speaker 2: and probably tried and convicted based on her fake composite

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Speaker 2: and all of her lies. Like my Herman, one of my.

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Speaker 1: Best friends in the DA's office.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely, I mean the crime itself was atrocious and horristic.

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Speaker 6: And and then and then you know, to give this

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Speaker 6: false profile of someone else who may have done it,

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Speaker 6: wasting resources, law enforcement resources, wasting everybody's time, but also,

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Speaker 6: like you said, putting somebody else potentially in jeopardy of

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Speaker 6: being picked up for It's just mind boggling that she

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Speaker 6: would go down the road.

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Speaker 2: You know, I've dealt with a sod defense many times.

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Speaker 2: I named it that some other dude did it. Sod d.

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Speaker 2: Here she goes, some other dude did it, and listen

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Speaker 2: to her.

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Speaker 1: Listen.

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Speaker 10: I would like to stay to whoever has my children,

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Speaker 10: that they please they please bring.

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Speaker 9: Them home.

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Speaker 10: To us where they belong.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 10: Now.

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Speaker 2: In one instance, she tells a love dude quote, I

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Speaker 2: don't ask for money, That's not who I am. Does

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Speaker 2: he know you're a two time killer, But if you

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Speaker 2: wanted to send me something, I can tell you how

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Speaker 2: to do it. He writes back, and says he has

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Speaker 2: absolutely sent money into her jail account. Love you, She responds, okay,

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Speaker 2: please somebody bring me my vomit bag. This is who

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Speaker 2: Susan Smith really is. Susan Smith murdered her boys. Doctor

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Speaker 2: Bethany Marshall joining says she's a renownced psychoanalyst at Doctorbethany

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Speaker 2: Marshall dot com. As a matter of fact, Doctor Bethany,

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Speaker 2: I don't get it. We've got men sexting and texting

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Speaker 2: and writing and sending money and love letters to Susan

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Speaker 2: Smith when she is a ballfaced liar that count her

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Speaker 2: children and the worst way letting her car, her Burgundy

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Speaker 2: protege go down a ramp with the two little boys

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Speaker 2: alive strapped in the back seat.

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Speaker 1: Why I don't get it.

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Speaker 2: Why would men want to be with this woman, send

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Speaker 2: her money and sex text with her? But did you

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Speaker 2: hear her lie? Do you remember when that happened? Crying

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Speaker 2: in the snotting and all that happening. And I want

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Speaker 2: to say you ever have my children? They please please

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Speaker 2: bring them home to us where they belong, knowing full

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Speaker 2: well they drowned strapped in their car seats.

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Speaker 3: We'll show how immature she is at the most.

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Speaker 2: Basic level that she wants the most. You could say

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Speaker 2: she's immature. She murdered two little boys.

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Speaker 3: We know she's a sociopath, but what beyond the fact

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Speaker 3: that she's a sociopath, what additional factor are there that

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Speaker 3: would lead to this? And one is an over attachment

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Speaker 3: to men. She loves that feeling of falling in love,

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Speaker 3: the feeling you have.

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Speaker 1: The first s. Are you linking this to double murder?

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Speaker 1: Why this woman did not get the death.

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Speaker 2: Penalty, I do not know. And now there's six guys

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Speaker 2: trying to have sex with are really ill.

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Speaker 3: Butically it's really a pathological attachment to.

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Speaker 2: Men, like being in a barrel with with a rattlesnake.

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Speaker 1: Who was that?

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Speaker 3: Well, apparently they do. And you know, women who couldn't

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Speaker 3: have fantasie who kill their children often have some really

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Speaker 3: First of all, they were usually what we call cluster B.

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Speaker 2: Then or not I really have some sexy mesia going

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Speaker 2: on because I'm totally cutting your mic.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So their cluster B, which means they have three

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Speaker 3: different disorders sociopathy, bipolar, and borderline. Often they have a

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Speaker 3: very pathological attachment to men. Either they kill the children

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Speaker 3: to get back at the object, like I'm going to

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Speaker 3: kill her children because I'm mad at you. It's hard

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Speaker 3: to describe this without really sounding like it's trite, but

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Speaker 3: it's These are the underpinnings of what these women do.

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Speaker 3: So it's either I'm going to kill the children to

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Speaker 3: get back at you, or I'm going to kill the

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Speaker 3: children if they found a new guy, and I don't

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Speaker 3: want the children to be in the way.

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Speaker 2: Interesting that you said that. Interesting, But I also want

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Speaker 2: you to hear the level of detail that she waves

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Speaker 2: into her big fat lie about her two murdered little boys.

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Speaker 2: I can't even imagine. I'm more excruciating death than being

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Speaker 2: strapped in a car, can't get out.

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Speaker 1: The car goes underwater.

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Speaker 2: A muddy lake, and you're in the car screaming for

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Speaker 2: mommy as that car fills up with water till you drown.

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Speaker 2: Listen to our cut crime online.

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Speaker 7: On the night of October twenty fifth, Susan Smith knocks

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Speaker 7: on the door of a house near John D. Long Lake.

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Speaker 7: She's hysterical when the man answers the door and tells

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Speaker 7: him to call the police. A black man just carjacked

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Speaker 7: her at a red light. He had a gun, and

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Speaker 7: she jumped out of the car, but her two boys,

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Speaker 7: three year old Michael and fourteen month old Alex, are

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Speaker 7: still in the car. Police begins searching immediately, and the

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Speaker 7: nation's media converges on Union, South Carolina for eight days.

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Speaker 7: Susan Smith tells an ever changing story of the carjacking,

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Speaker 7: and friends get irritated when she keeps asking if Tom

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Speaker 7: Findley has reached out to see her. Friends wonder why

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Speaker 7: she would care about Findley when her two children are missing.

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Speaker 7: On day nine of intense media pressure, Susan Smith meets

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Speaker 7: with Union County Sheriff Howard Wells, and Wells meets with

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Speaker 7: the press.

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Speaker 2: Okay, note to sell who is Tom Finley? But there's more.

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Speaker 2: There's more.

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Speaker 1: Listen.

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Speaker 7: Susan Smith has carried the line as far as she can.

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Speaker 7: When she finally admits what she's done, there never was

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Speaker 7: a black man with a gun that stole her car

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Speaker 7: with their kids in the back. She now says she

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Speaker 7: went out for a drive with her sons buckled into

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Speaker 7: their car seats in the back, Feeling desperate, alone and suicidal.

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Speaker 7: She now says she drove to John D. Long Lake

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Speaker 7: and planned to roll the car into the lake. Smith

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Speaker 7: puts the car in neutral, but instead of going into

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Speaker 7: the lake with the car and the boys, she jumps

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Speaker 7: out and watches the car sink. Based on her directions

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Speaker 7: for where the car should be, scuba divers locate the

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Speaker 7: vehicle with the boys in the back still buckled into

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Speaker 7: their seats.

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Speaker 2: Just let that so Kim for just one moment, claiming,

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Speaker 2: you know, why is it chrismin Gunna that all these

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Speaker 2: people that want to commit suicide end up killing their

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Speaker 2: children or their family or somebody else they miraculously live.

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Speaker 8: I mean, just so horrific thought in of itself, right,

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Speaker 8: Nancamy Night. I actually drove the entire route that Susan

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Speaker 8: Smith took that day. There were ample opportunities for her

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Speaker 8: to change her mind and turn around. There were stop signs,

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Speaker 8: they were, you know, through residential neighborhoods. And to think

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Speaker 8: that she was saying to the public, you know, or

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Speaker 8: to the police when she initially confessed, well, you know,

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Speaker 8: I thought about committing suicide, but I couldn't do it,

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Speaker 8: et cetera. So I jumped out. You know, when you

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Speaker 8: go to that boat ramp where these poor little babies

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Speaker 8: are strapped in those backseats, and is that car is

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Speaker 8: going down that ramp. I would submit to you. She

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Speaker 8: had gotten out of that car almost immediately and let

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Speaker 8: that car go to your point a couple of minutes ago.

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Speaker 8: And as that water started to fill that vehicle, can

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Speaker 8: you imagine the horror that these children were experiencing and

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Speaker 8: the mother standing there as that vehicle started to sink.

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Speaker 8: It took about six I think between six to fifteen

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Speaker 8: seconds for that vehicle to hit the water and within

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Speaker 8: a minute it was submerged.

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Speaker 2: Yamya.

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Speaker 3: It just shows how cold blood she is. She could

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Speaker 3: stand on the shore look at the car submerged and

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Speaker 3: knowing that her babies were drowning. It really gives you

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Speaker 3: insight into how detached and just cold blooded she is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, who is this woman?

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Speaker 2: Take a listen to our cut three from crime online

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Speaker 2: dot Com.

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Speaker 7: After high school, she began dating David Smith. Soon there's

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Speaker 7: a baby on the way and the pair decided to

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Speaker 7: get married. Ultimately, they have two boys, Michael Daniel and

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Speaker 7: Alexander Tyler, but the children don't keep the marriage together.

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Speaker 7: The Smith separate several times. During one of these separations,

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Speaker 7: Susan Smith begins dating Tom Finley, the single son of

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Speaker 7: a wealthy mill owner.

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Speaker 2: Ah, so that is who Tom Finley is, Okay, Tara Mallick,

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Speaker 2: high profile lawyer joining us from our own law from

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Speaker 2: Smith and Mallet. Would that be motive she wants to

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Speaker 2: be with this rich guy?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you know.

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Speaker 6: Who's painted in different ways. During the trial itself, and

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Speaker 6: there was some conflicting testimony. One of the theories of

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Speaker 6: the case that was put on and suspected was that

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Speaker 6: she wanted.

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Speaker 1: To be with Thomas Finley.

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Speaker 6: Finley didn't like the fact that, you know, she had

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Speaker 6: two kids, and in a way or in an attempt

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Speaker 6: to get back together with Finley, who she was having

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Speaker 6: an affair with, you know, she drowned her two boys.

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Speaker 6: The other testimony that was presented during the trial was that,

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Speaker 6: you know, she was someone who was an abused child,

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Speaker 6: she had had a secret affair with her stepfather, she

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Speaker 6: was frightened of her husband, you know. And so I

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Speaker 6: think those details this jury ended up grappling with. And

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Speaker 6: it's the case that should have been a death penalty case,

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Speaker 6: but unfortunately not here.

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Speaker 2: Quote she always thought it would be fun to be

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Speaker 2: on that show, and that when they put Anna Delvey

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Speaker 2: on the show, Susan felt like maybe it was the possibility.

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Speaker 2: Oh kay, I had enough of a problem with Anna Delvi,

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Speaker 2: the fake eras who conned people out of hundreds of

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Speaker 2: thousands of dollars. She showed up on Dancing with the Stars,

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Speaker 2: and then she blamed Dancing with the Stars for exploiting her. Okay,

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Speaker 2: just these people. I can't make this up. And now

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Speaker 2: Susan Smith is on the Dancing with the Stars train,

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Speaker 2: oh or wants to be okay before she's cast for

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Speaker 2: Dancing with the Stars. Can we just take a review

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Speaker 2: of the evidence?

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Speaker 1: Isn't it true?

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Speaker 2: Dave Mack joining us from Crime Online dot Com that

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Speaker 2: Finley broke it off with her claiming he did not

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Speaker 2: want an instant family.

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Speaker 8: He did, and.

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Speaker 7: Nanthy more to the point, are more than just saying

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Speaker 7: I don't want kids? There were other things he stated

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Speaker 7: in there about her and their relationship. He also cited

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Speaker 7: their different upbringings and that that was a big stumbling block.

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Speaker 7: Another one the way Susan Smith acted and flirted with

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Speaker 7: other men.

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Speaker 8: He didn't like that, so.

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Speaker 7: He mentioned three basic things that he really didn't want

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Speaker 7: an instant family. But these other two things were mentioned

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Speaker 7: as well, and one was her own behavior of hitting

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Speaker 7: on other men, but she dismisses that in her thought process,

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Speaker 7: blames it all on the kids and thinks she's seen

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Speaker 7: getting back if she just gets rid of that. She

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Speaker 7: doesn't address the fact that she hits on men all

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Speaker 7: the time.

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Speaker 2: So let me understand something, Dave Matt. She met Finley,

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Speaker 2: the son of the rich guy, when she and her

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Speaker 2: husband were what divorce separated?

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Speaker 7: What separated? They actually when they were married, they had

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Speaker 7: several full on separations where they were not living together,

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Speaker 7: were dating other people, and yet they would then get

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Speaker 7: back together, and it was on and off for I think,

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Speaker 7: I mean after they had the last time. He was

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Speaker 7: fourteen months old while this happened, so it was an

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Speaker 7: ongoing process in their relationship that breaking out getting back together.

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Speaker 2: Let me get back to doctor Bethony Marshall, what do

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Speaker 2: you make of this? It was always presented that family

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Speaker 2: broke up with her because he didn't want an instant family,

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Speaker 2: But according to the letter he sent her before she

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Speaker 2: murdered her too little boys, it was a lot more

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Speaker 2: than that.

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Speaker 3: He's probably minimizing it because now he has the scrutiny

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Speaker 3: of the country and the court and saying, well, I

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Speaker 3: didn't really want her anyway. But there's partially, I think

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Speaker 3: a half truth in that maybe he wasn't ready for

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Speaker 3: a family and children and he was contemplating that. And

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Speaker 3: I think Susan Smith was the kind of woman who

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Speaker 3: would just ignore the fact that he didn't want to

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Speaker 3: be with her. She would think, Oh, you know, i'll

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Speaker 3: buy any dress. Oh, i'll go shopping. Oh, i'll buy

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Speaker 3: some mistakes, I'll wear a low cut dress. Oh I'll

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Speaker 3: just kill my children. I mean just she would just

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Speaker 3: throw everything at it to get him back. So I

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Speaker 3: think if she was ambivalent about her that may have

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Speaker 3: even incentivized her to kill her children.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I obviously need to reward my question. There were

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Speaker 2: other behaviors he found disturbing which led to his decision to.

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Speaker 1: Break it off with her.

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Speaker 2: Not only that he did not want an instant family,

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Speaker 2: but he did not like the way she acted promiscuously

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Speaker 2: with other guys. He didn't want that.

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Speaker 3: I think some women relate primarily to men because they

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Speaker 3: feel they can seduce them, and I think this was

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Speaker 3: probably her mo that the minute she met a man,

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Speaker 3: she would be furicacious, she would be overly sexualized, she

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Speaker 3: would try to attract them. She probably did that all

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Speaker 3: the time because this is a way of feeling important,

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Speaker 3: like she's a real person in the real world, and

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Speaker 3: she doesn't really have to relate to the men. If

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Speaker 3: it's sexual in an instant then they never become real

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Speaker 3: people to her. They're all just objects, little objects who

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Speaker 3: flatter her.

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Speaker 1: Listen, now are cut for.

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Speaker 7: Susan Smith is planning a future with the best catch

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Speaker 7: in the county when she gets a Dear John letter

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Speaker 7: from Dear Tom. He explains he doesn't think the relationship

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Speaker 7: will work because of the difference in their upbringing, the

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Speaker 7: way she acts towards other men, and he doesn't want

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Speaker 7: an instant family. He doesn't want children right now. Susan

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Speaker 7: dismisses her upbringing or her behavior towards other men as

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Speaker 7: possible deal breakers in the relationship, and the only thing

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Speaker 7: she sees is Tom Finley doesn't want children.

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Speaker 2: So she ignores everything except the children part of the complaint,

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Speaker 2: and then suddenly, poof, they're gone. In the last days,

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Speaker 2: Susan Smith back in the news, apparently having a romantic

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Speaker 2: relationship with at least six men behind bars. Okay, what

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Speaker 2: does that mean? Well, there are precursors to today's report

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Speaker 2: of Susan Smith's relationships with six guys. What precursors will

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Speaker 2: listener ourcut ten.

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Speaker 7: A tabloid news report claiming Susan Smith had been beaten

443
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 7: by guards at a prison in South Carolina gave birth

444
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 7: to an investigation into the matter. While there was no

445
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,959
Speaker 7: proof she had been beaten, Smith told prison investigators that

446
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,920
Speaker 7: she had four sexual encounters Lieutenant Houston Cagele, a supervisor

447
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 7: at South Carolina's Women's Correctional Institution WCI, where she's confined.

448
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 7: Cagle admitted having sex with Smith and another prisoner and

449
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 7: was charged with the offense in August of two thousand.

450
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 7: Smith was twenty eight at the time and was disciplined

451
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:37,919
Speaker 7: for having sex with the guard, while fifty year old

452
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,199
Speaker 7: Kagel pleaded guilty and spent three months in jail. In

453
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 7: two thousand and one, a prison captain, Alfred Rowe, also

454
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 7: pleaded guilty to having sex with Smith and was sentenced

455
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 7: to five years probation. It was then discovered that Susan

456
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,640
Speaker 7: Smith engaged in sexual relations with Cagel after she tested

457
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 7: positive for an std.

458
00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 2: Okay, so, she claims I was beaten and that spawns

459
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,199
Speaker 2: an investigation, but it turns out she wasn't beaten. She

460
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 2: was sleeping with various prison guards. Just got Morgan, remind me,

461
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 2: what is it like to drown? You're the death investigator

462
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 2: one of the.

463
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 9: Most horrible deaths that you can even begin to think about.

464
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 9: And the fact is, the thing that's always bothered me

465
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 9: about this case, Nancy, is that with Alex and michael on,

466
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,639
Speaker 9: I think it's really important that I say their names

467
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 9: at this moment in time, because they are the victims.

468
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 9: When they were strapped in those little seats in the

469
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 9: back of that Mazda and that tight, little confined place

470
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,640
Speaker 9: where maybe their mother had taken them to McDonald's before,

471
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,199
Speaker 9: had taken them all over town, and suddenly they're at

472
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,239
Speaker 9: the edge of a boat ramp and they're thinking, you know,

473
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 9: what's mama doing? Now? You know, she gets out of

474
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 9: the car and as that car is left and neutral

475
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 9: and goes down that boat ramp and begins to slowly

476
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,439
Speaker 9: sink beneath those dark waters out there. You know, they

477
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 9: found that car about one hundred and twenty feet off

478
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,239
Speaker 9: of the shore. The dive team had looked for it

479
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 9: for some period of time. Car was filled with water.

480
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 9: Those kids were still strapped in that back seat. And

481
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,120
Speaker 9: our reaction as humans, if we're trying to catch our breath,

482
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 9: is to fight. And just imagine this, Nancy. They're strapped.

483
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 9: We've all got babies in our families that we've taken

484
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 9: care of. We strapped them in car seats. And you

485
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 9: ever seen a child struggle to get out of the

486
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 9: car seat. They're tired of being in it. Well, imagine

487
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 9: that only water's creeping up on you. Water's getting into

488
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 9: your nose, your little mouth, your eyes, You're running out

489
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 9: of oxygen. Your brain is screaming. It's on fire because

490
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,959
Speaker 9: there's no oxygen. You can't catch your breath, and you

491
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 9: have no idea. It's panic that's setting in and it

492
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 9: would not have been. I just wanted to spell any

493
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 9: kind of fantasy somebody might be having right now that

494
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 9: this was a sudden and a quick death. It wasn't.

495
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 9: It was tortress. It was absolutely horrific what these babies

496
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 9: went through at that moment, Tom Nancy, and I'm with you.

497
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 9: I'm still to this day just befuddled why she's not

498
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 9: sitting on death row. And you know, forever and ever

499
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 9: she's getting going with her life. No isn't she and

500
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,479
Speaker 9: those babies died, died at this monster's hands, out there

501
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 9: out there in that.

502
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 2: Lake, knowing full well what she did, immediately running to

503
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 2: a nearby home, claiming that an unknown male had jumped

504
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 2: into her car. And I guess the only red light

505
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 2: in the county. And I feel okay saying that because

506
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 2: where I grew up that we didn't even have a

507
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 2: red light, So out of the entire county, an unknown

508
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 2: assailant jumps into her car at the one red light,

509
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 2: takes her car and murders her children. Okay, this is

510
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 2: the woman these guys want to be with. Speaking of them,

511
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 2: there's a matter of Captain Alfred Rowe. Now we heard

512
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 2: about Cagel Cagile, a supervisor at South Carolina Women's ci

513
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 2: Correctional Institute.

514
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: And what happened with him.

515
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 2: We know that he was ultimately identified because Susan Smith

516
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 2: turned up with an std behind bars. But there's more.

517
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,239
Speaker 2: Take a listen to our cut eleven. Does she not

518
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 2: realize there are consequences to actions.

519
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 7: Captain Alfred Smith was one of the guards who lost

520
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 7: their careers after having sex with Susan Smith behind bars.

521
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 7: Roe says Smith is a master manipulator, telling Inside Edition

522
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 7: that Smith approached him at three in the morning, telling

523
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 7: him she thought he was the nicest officer at the

524
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 7: prison and that she was lonely. The former guard says

525
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 7: things just escalated from there. Roe claims he only had

526
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 7: sex with Smith one time, but it cost him everything.

527
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 7: He was fired from the job, lost his pension, and

528
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 7: after pleading guilty to having sex with Smith, he was

529
00:29:58,520 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 7: sentenced to five years probation.

530
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:01,479
Speaker 1: Take a listnour Cut twelve.

531
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 7: Sex isn't the only issue Susan Smith has faced in prison.

532
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 7: Twice in twenty ten and once in twenty fifteen, Susan

533
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 7: Smith was disciplined on drug charges, losing privileges for more

534
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 7: than a year. Susan Smith's drug use escalated when she

535
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 7: switched prisons from Camille Graham Correctional Center in Columbia, South Carolina,

536
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 7: to Leath Correctional Institution in Greenwood, South Carolina. Former prison

537
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 7: guard Alfred Rowe, who pleaded guilty to having sex with

538
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 7: Smith at the prison, told the TV show Sellmate Secrets.

539
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 7: When Smith was moved from one prison to another, that

540
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 7: it was at that point where quote she could no

541
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 7: longer get the mail attention that she used as a

542
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 7: drug unquote and instead turned to pill.

543
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 2: Which led to a series of drug infractions.

544
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: Crime stores with Nancy Grace. To another guy, Susan.

545
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 2: Smith writes, behind bar, she's raking in thousands of dollars

546
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 2: a month. She spends hours on the phone having phone sex,

547
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 2: sending over twenty texts a day to these guys. Quote,

548
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 2: I want to be with you when I get out.

549
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 2: I think we all know what that means. Thank you

550
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 2: for the funds, they will come in handy. What is

551
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 2: she doing with the money behind bars? What can you

552
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 2: really even do with that? Her little boys, Michael and Alexander,

553
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 2: were strapped into the car by their seat belts when

554
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 2: they were drowned, screaming for mommy. That's the last human

555
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 2: face they saw. As she rolled the car into a lake.

556
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 2: She asked another guy if he would support her when

557
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 2: she was paroled. Then he does this big spreadsheet. Listen

558
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 2: to what this guy says, quote, I'll tell you what

559
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 2: I did last night thinking of you. I'm sure he

560
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 2: was thinking of you.

561
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 1: Okay.

562
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 2: I can't even describe what he was doing while he

563
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 2: was thinking of her. I made a spreadsheet that starts

564
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 2: out with two hundred and thirteen thousand dollars, you're gonna

565
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 2: have more than that. I think you'll be in the

566
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 2: two hundred and twenty thousand dollars range. All put together,

567
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 2: you can spend forty thousand a year while you're withdrawing

568
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 2: from that balance. It's still earning interest on the undrawn amount.

569
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 2: In twenty years, you will have spent most of that,

570
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 2: but you'll still have some left. Smith sighs after a

571
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 2: pause and says, I love you so much. He says,

572
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,959
Speaker 2: I love you too, and then they make kissy sounds. Okay, quick,

573
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 2: bring back the vomit bag. This is so Susan Smith

574
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 2: really is the narrative, her story that she projects is

575
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 2: so different from reality. Life has not passed her by.

576
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 2: She committed double murder. That that's what happened. It's not

577
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 2: anyone's fault but her own.

578
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 3: Absolutely.

579
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 6: I mean, and if life.

580
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 3: Has passed her by, how does she.

581
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 6: Characterize what she did to her stife. She took their

582
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 6: life away. They didn't even have the opportunity to live

583
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 6: a life. I mean, these were really young kids here,

584
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 6: and I think you know the pattern of behavior that

585
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 6: she's exhibited, like the infractions that she's picked up while

586
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 6: she's been in prison. I mean, all of this doesn't

587
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 6: tend to show that this is someone who has been

588
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 6: rehabilitated while in prison. I mean, she's still showing those

589
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 6: signs of manipulation that you know she engaged in before

590
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 6: she was convicted in Sensus, you know, leading on the

591
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 6: nation for nine days, telling lies about what actually happened,

592
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 6: telling lies and bringing fingers of people that didn't exist.

593
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 3: So this is a really deeply disturbed individual.

594
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 2: Chris mc dunna with me, a former homicide detective and

595
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 2: host of YouTube channel The Interview Room who has investigated

596
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 2: at least three hundred homicides. You know, defendants can be very,

597
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 2: very charming. Think about Scott Peterson or doctor Martin McNeil,

598
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 2: who killed his wife, a beauty queen. According to Susan

599
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:12,280
Speaker 2: Smith's family, they say, quote she seems to be happy,

600
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 2: and that she quote always had a messy love life.

601
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 2: She's creating a fictional version of her life and people

602
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 2: are buying it. These guys, these lonely hearts, are buying

603
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 2: it and attempting to have let me just say, romantic

604
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 2: interludes with her. Chris McDonough. Have you ever met a

605
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,280
Speaker 2: charming murder defendant, because I have absolutely Nancy.

606
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 8: And what's interesting about her is we have to always

607
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 8: remember that all behavior has a purpose, and that past

608
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 8: behavior is usually an indication of future behavior. So she

609
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 8: has always, throughout her entire case and through her life

610
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 8: here while in prison and even before prison, she always

611
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 8: sometimes projected the words of day into her vocabulary. And

612
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 8: if we listen real carefully to the minutia of what

613
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 8: she said in the very beginning, whoever they are, please

614
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 8: bring them home. She's talking about two suspects, but she

615
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 8: talks about one in terms of a description. And now

616
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 8: if we fast forward that to today, we have six

617
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:39,359
Speaker 8: individuals men who quite frankly, I can't figure that piece

618
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 8: of a puzzle out.

619
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 10: You know.

620
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 8: That's that's for the doctors to tell us what that's

621
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 8: all about. But she is utilizing that behavior still to

622
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:55,320
Speaker 8: this day, by talking about money, by talking about sexual

623
00:35:55,719 --> 00:36:00,040
Speaker 8: you know, TIFFs there between the two of them, and

624
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 8: she hasn't lost a thought from miss Leopard, you know.

625
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 2: Just Scott Morgan, maybe we just know too much when

626
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,280
Speaker 2: it comes to murder, because when I think of Susan Smith,

627
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 2: I immediately think of being trapped strapped in to a car

628
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,839
Speaker 2: as it's going down a ramp and going underwater and

629
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,240
Speaker 2: seeing the water coming up on either side and starting

630
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:27,320
Speaker 2: to pour in through the windshields. It comes up around

631
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 2: you and you can't get out. I mean, the children

632
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 2: in this case were three and fourteen months.

633
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 9: They never had stood a chance within this environment. And

634
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 9: here's another thing that people might not be aware of.

635
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 9: After that car dip beneath the surface of that water,

636
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,360
Speaker 9: one other element we have to consider. And again I

637
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 9: go back to the idea that we all have had babies,

638
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 9: you know, parents, that sort of thing. I've got yous

639
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 9: and grandkids whom.

640
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 1: I love dearly.

641
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 9: And what is it the kids are afraid of late

642
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 9: at night? It's darkness, and it would you would not

643
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 9: have been able to have seen your hand in front

644
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 9: of your face. So not only are they absent a

645
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 9: loving mother who normally you would hope would take care

646
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 9: of them, they're they're disoriented, they're running out of breath,

647
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 9: and it's dark, Nancy, it's cold and it's dark down there.

648
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 9: And that's that goes to the level of horror that

649
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 9: they're that they're you know, experiencing Susan Smith.

650
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 2: Just go ahead and rake in all the money you want,

651
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 2: but good luck enjoying it behind bars. Do you ever

652
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 2: even think of your two little boys that you murdered?

653
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 2: I do, Nancy Grace, signing off, good night friend,