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Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals is a production of iHeart Radio and Grim

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Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Mackey. For the best experience, listen

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Speaker 1: with headphones. In the West, we have very limited number

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Speaker 1: of words for different states of consciousness. In Eastern thinking

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Speaker 1: and religion, there maybe fifty eighty hundred words for different

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Speaker 1: possible states. This phenomenon forces us to think about subtleties,

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Speaker 1: and you know, we don't like to think about subtleties.

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Speaker 1: High percentage of people will remember until they've had a

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Speaker 1: chance to explore their abductions as dreams. Now, when they

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Speaker 1: call a dream, is it a dream that recollects an abduction?

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Speaker 1: Is it an abduction they're calling a dream? There's all

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Speaker 1: kinds of ways that word dream is. There's just an

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Speaker 1: experience that happens at night. You call it a dream

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Speaker 1: because that's the way you were raised to think. If

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Speaker 1: you take an abduction experiencer through the night of an experience,

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Speaker 1: there is that moment of truth when they realize they

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Speaker 1: weren't really asleep when this happened. As a sort of

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Speaker 1: like you went to bed, and it's very important to go,

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Speaker 1: you know, reconstruct the events of the night, like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: what time do you go to bed. You're watching television,

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Speaker 1: and you went to bed, and then what happened? And

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Speaker 1: and then this light came in now, but you didn't

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Speaker 1: say you fell asleep. And that's a moment of truth.

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Speaker 1: And at that moment, a shift in consciousness occurs. It's

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Speaker 1: not as if they're just like an ordinary waking consciousness.

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Speaker 1: One of the people that Bud and I have worked

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Speaker 1: with in New York describes it's as if the aliens

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Speaker 1: come through a screen. They break through like a scrim

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Speaker 1: which is a screen in the theater. It's as if

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Speaker 1: they shatter one reality and come into this reality versus

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Speaker 1: not asleep, but they're in another state of consciousness. But

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Speaker 1: they're fully present in that state of consciousness. But it's

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Speaker 1: a different state of consciousness. So it's a true experience,

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Speaker 1: but in another state of consciousness, and we don't have

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Speaker 1: language for that. I'm Toby Ball and this is Strange Arrivals,

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Speaker 1: Episode five, Unseen Realms of the Infinite. On June thirteenth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two, a conference convened on the campus of

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Speaker 1: the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Cambridge, Massachusetts, titled the

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Speaker 1: Abduction Study Conference. It brought together researchers, experiencers, and a

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Speaker 1: loane skeptic in an attempt to make sense of the

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Speaker 1: apparent alien abduction phenomenon. It's a little hard to picture

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Speaker 1: this now because alien abductions have largely faded from public consciousness,

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Speaker 1: but these were prominent people in their respective fields who

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Speaker 1: were looking at what they felt was the very likely

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Speaker 1: reality that people, perhaps millions of people, had been abducted

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Speaker 1: by aliens. What were the consequences, what should be done?

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Speaker 1: The conference was organized by John Mack, who was at Harvard,

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Speaker 1: and David Pritchard, a prominent physicist at MIT who had

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Speaker 1: become intrigued by the subject. Pritchard had looked at the

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Speaker 1: ufology landscape in nineteen ninety two and realized that there

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Speaker 1: was quite a bit of research that had been done,

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Speaker 1: but almost none of it had been published. An academic conference,

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Speaker 1: he thought, was the proper way for these researchers to

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Speaker 1: present their findings and then have discussions about them. It

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Speaker 1: was an attempt at a serious academic look at the phenomenon,

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Speaker 1: but while it was held on the MIT campus, MIT

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Speaker 1: did not actually sponsor the conference. Not surprisingly, the subject

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Speaker 1: was considered controversial. John mac, biographer Ralph Blumenthal. Now MT

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Speaker 1: didn't sponsor this conference, but they gave it a venue

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Speaker 1: because this professor Dave Pritchard was very eminent and he

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Speaker 1: wanted a place to hold a conference. So it attracted

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Speaker 1: atomic scientists, psychologists, psychiatrists, religious scholars, a broad cross section

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Speaker 1: of academia and people who were really interested in getting

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Speaker 1: it at this mystery, which it was. So four five

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Speaker 1: days in June of nineteen and ninety two they discussed

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Speaker 1: all this. The one professed skeptic was Robert Schaeffer, who

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Speaker 1: had worked with legendary UFO researcher Philip Klass and was

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Speaker 1: himself a leading skeptical voice in ufology. Here he is

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Speaker 1: talking about the conference. They were very serious about this.

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Speaker 1: Big conferences like this don't happen all that often. Especially

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Speaker 1: this is not a conference that was open to the public.

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Speaker 1: It's only people who were invited to attend, and actually

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Speaker 1: they invited They wanted to make a show of having

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Speaker 1: skeptics there, to show that they were, you know, open,

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Speaker 1: that they were not afraid of septics, because some upologists,

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Speaker 1: you know, they'll actually run in in the hole if

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Speaker 1: somebody's going to critically examine their claims as Blumenthal mentions.

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Speaker 1: The conference attracted experts in a number of subjects for

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Speaker 1: an interdisciplinary effort at making sense of the reports that

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Speaker 1: were being obtained by UFO abduction researchers like John Mack,

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Speaker 1: Bud Hopkins, and David Jacobs. The conference featured about one

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Speaker 1: hundred presentations. Several people had more than one presentation as

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Speaker 1: the conference organizers tried to create a coherent, comprehensive picture

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Speaker 1: of what they believed was happening. In many ways, the

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Speaker 1: conference was at venue for mac and Hopkins and other uipologists.

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Speaker 1: They had been at the forefront of identifying what they

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Speaker 1: saw as an abduction crisis, and this was their opportunity

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Speaker 1: to present their findings to a scientific audience. For their response,

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Speaker 1: this included giving presentations on their research methods and on

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Speaker 1: specific cases they felt were especially compelling, say so that

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Speaker 1: they had one big new case and a whole bunch

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Speaker 1: of other ones. If they thought was so well documented

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Speaker 1: and everything, this was going to be like their revelation

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Speaker 1: to the world. Look at this great stuff, this great

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Speaker 1: proof that we have. Okay, we could drop this upon

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Speaker 1: the world, we could reveal this, and so that's what

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Speaker 1: they were trying to do, and of course it didn't

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Speaker 1: turn out the way that they were hoping. This big

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Speaker 1: case was the so called brooklyn Bridge case that involved

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Speaker 1: the alleged abduction of a woman identified as Linda Cortill.

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Speaker 1: We looked at this incident in episode ten of the

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Speaker 1: first season of Strange Arrivals. As time passed, the story

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Speaker 1: grew until it became too convoluted and incredible for all

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Speaker 1: but the most committed abduction adherents. In the end, it

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Speaker 1: was a blow to the credibility of the field, but

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Speaker 1: that came after this conference. The conference was also a

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Speaker 1: chance for the u Phoe researchers to present their methods

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Speaker 1: and results to a scientific audience. The expectation was that

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Speaker 1: the scientists would affirm that their methods were valid, but

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Speaker 1: again the reality was a little different. He had all

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Speaker 1: kinds of psychology, were all kinds of psychologists and physinicists

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Speaker 1: and everybody in this conference here, and as they were talking,

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Speaker 1: like Bud Opkins and so I talking about these surveys

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Speaker 1: that they were doing and such and a whole bunch

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Speaker 1: of psychologists, and the audience back saw, right, could you

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Speaker 1: didn't you quantify these the survey that Schaefer is talking

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Speaker 1: about is known as the Roper pole. The Roper pole

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Speaker 1: is famous in UFO circles. It sought to determine to

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Speaker 1: some degree the number of people in the US who

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Speaker 1: had been abducted by UFOs. The idea for it came

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Speaker 1: from a man named Robert Bigelow, the owner of the

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Speaker 1: discount motel chain, Budget Suites of America, founder of Bigelow Aerospace,

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Speaker 1: and a leading figure in funding UFO studies. He provided

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Speaker 1: the funds to conduct the survey. The survey was conducted

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Speaker 1: face to face rather than by phone. It asked respondents

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Speaker 1: a series of questions which the designers Hopkins Jacobs and

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Speaker 1: a sociologist named Rob Westrom thought would identify people who

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Speaker 1: had likely been abducted, even in cases where the respondent

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Speaker 1: didn't remember the experience. And the results that two percent

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Speaker 1: of the population, or three point seven million Americans, were,

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Speaker 1: in Bud Hopkins words, highly likely to be UFO abductees.

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Speaker 1: They felt that this number was a conservative estimate. Like

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Speaker 1: so much of ufology, the Roper poll seems to mimic

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Speaker 1: science without actually adhering to scientific rigor, and the scientists

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Speaker 1: at the conference noticed often the most interesting parts of

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Speaker 1: conference proceedings are the questions and comments that follow presents.

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Speaker 1: This conference was no different. After a presentation on the

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Speaker 1: Roper Pole, sociologist Robert Hall expressed his reservations about the pole.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but all due respect to Bud Hopkins and

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Speaker 1: Dave Jacobs, who have done a lot of things very

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Speaker 1: valuable in this field, I have to say that I

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Speaker 1: think this survey was the worst waste of research money

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Speaker 1: I've ever seen, in a terrible, terrible lost opportunity. I

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Speaker 1: think with proper advanced planning, it could have been a

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Speaker 1: very valuable survey, but it does not provide any scientific

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Speaker 1: evidence about the prevalence of these events. After another presentation,

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Speaker 1: the poll was again the subject of stern questioning. David

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Speaker 1: Jacobs protested that he didn't believe that he and others

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Speaker 1: were making any outlandish claims as a result of the poll.

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Speaker 1: Hypnotherapist Joe Nyman replied, reasonably, I think I don't agree

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Speaker 1: with that, Dave, I think you are making an outlandish claim.

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Speaker 1: Its specifically stated that these are the number of abductees

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Speaker 1: and two and a half percent of the population are abductees.

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Speaker 1: They screwed it up completely and Bud Hopkins said, from

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Speaker 1: you know, the speaker's platform. He said, well, I'm glad

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Speaker 1: you guys are here. I'm glad you guys are telling

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Speaker 1: me this because you're the experts that we brought you here,

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Speaker 1: so I ducally give us feedback. I don't understand these things.

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Speaker 1: I'm just an artist. I don't understand about psychological tasting.

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Speaker 1: It's there, ken, he says, it were. It was not

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Speaker 1: nearly as solid as they thought it was, as it

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Speaker 1: was immediately apparent from having you know, a number of

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Speaker 1: these psychologists of the audience who were not themselves actually

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Speaker 1: into ufology, but who are into psychological past daying down

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Speaker 1: comparisons are various things. Despite these issues, not everyone saw

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Speaker 1: the conference as a failure. In fact, people point the

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Speaker 1: conference is making a compelling case for the abduction phenomenon.

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Speaker 1: Even today again Ralph Blumenthal talking about the conference proceedings.

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Speaker 1: They made a record of their discussions. It came out

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Speaker 1: in a thick book two years later. It was embargoed

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Speaker 1: at the time, but it remains a very authoritative account

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Speaker 1: of the best research of all these scholars. And you

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Speaker 1: know what I like to say is that the so

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Speaker 1: called skeptics and debunkers who pooh pooh this whole notion

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Speaker 1: of alien encounters and dismiss it as ridiculous need to

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Speaker 1: do the research, because the research consists of looking at

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Speaker 1: volumes like this Alien Discussions account of the MIT Conference

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Speaker 1: to really understand that the strength of the evidence. It's

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Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence, to be sure, but these accounts that are

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Speaker 1: very vivid and coherent and consistent, and you can really

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Speaker 1: challenge these accounts till you know what they really are.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of the skeptics are lazy, they haven't

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Speaker 1: done the work, and they just say this is ridiculous. Well,

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Speaker 1: of course it's ridiculous. It makes no sense in our world.

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Speaker 1: And yet these accounts are so vivid and so consistent

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Speaker 1: and so credible when you look at the people from

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Speaker 1: all walks of life are coming out with its, including children,

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Speaker 1: not only the aerial school children, but children as young

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Speaker 1: as two years old or John mac interviewed who told

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Speaker 1: stories of being taken from their cribs and flown into

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Speaker 1: the sky by alien beings. And these kids, you know,

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Speaker 1: haven't read books, and they haven't seen movies. This is

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Speaker 1: just stories that they've told their parents and told John

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Speaker 1: mack so That was the importance of the MIT conference

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Speaker 1: and the research he did. It gave credibility to this

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Speaker 1: phenomenon that once you really go into it, it stands up.

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Speaker 1: It's very difficult to challenge. What I find really interesting

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Speaker 1: about John Mack is here was an obviously very smart,

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Speaker 1: very accomplished guy. He studied alien abducts, worked with experiencers,

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Speaker 1: and came to believe unequivocally that people were being abducted

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Speaker 1: in mass numbers. But this was based on the testimony

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Speaker 1: of the experiencers. There was no real physical evidence, certainly

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Speaker 1: not of the kind you'd expect with the sheer number

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Speaker 1: of cases. So how do you resolve this contradiction? After

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Speaker 1: the break, strange arrivals will return in a moment. It

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Speaker 1: seems to me that the tension that lies at the

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Speaker 1: heart of ufology and the alien abduction phenomenon is this.

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Speaker 1: There are thousands and thousands of UFO encounters and far

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Speaker 1: fewer but still numerous tales of an abduction, but to

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Speaker 1: this day there is no single piece of the kind

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Speaker 1: of evidence one would expect an abundance based on the

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Speaker 1: sheer number of cases. Someone who thinks seriously about UFOs

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Speaker 1: has to confront the question of why this evidence does

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Speaker 1: not exist. John Mack wrestled with this question and arrived

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Speaker 1: at an answer that is both strange and not surprising

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Speaker 1: because it reaches back to his preexisting beliefs. We saw

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Speaker 1: how his devotion to environmentalist and peace movements was reflected

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Speaker 1: in the messages the aerial students said they received. In

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Speaker 1: explaining how the phenomenon leaves no physical traces, he looked

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Speaker 1: to his beliefs about spirituality and realities not accounted for

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Speaker 1: in Western science. This is John Mack being interviewed informally

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Speaker 1: on camera by philosopher Terrence McKenna at the nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: two International Transpersonal Conference in Prague. He mentions the term

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Speaker 1: anima mundi, which refers to the concept that there is

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Speaker 1: a connection between all living things in the world, much

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Speaker 1: like a soul in an individual. The world of both

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Speaker 1: spirit with form and spirit without form, or the anima mundi,

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Speaker 1: whatever your language for it, the Great Spirit, the Holy Spirit,

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Speaker 1: whatever it is, it we have lost contact with it.

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Speaker 1: It signals us we don't listen. There are various ways

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Speaker 1: that certain people have revelations and experiences. Occasionally, the more

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Speaker 1: advanced spiritual people among us are reconnecting with the spirit.

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Speaker 1: But for most of us, the only language that we

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Speaker 1: know now is the language of the material world. So

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Speaker 1: it's as if the Divinity say, Okay, if that's all

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Speaker 1: you understand, I'll give it to you in the material world.

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Speaker 1: I'll give you physical manipulations. I'll give you reproductive connection.

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Speaker 1: I'll give you cuts, scars, scoop marks. I'll give you

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Speaker 1: a burned earth where the UFOs land. And I'll give

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Speaker 1: you an experience which is consistent among various people, which

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Speaker 1: empirically everybody agrees that photographs of UFOs. It's showing up

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Speaker 1: in the physical world. It may not be of the

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Speaker 1: physical world as we know it, but it communicates in

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Speaker 1: the physical world. What is Max saying here, He believes

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Speaker 1: that the phenomenon is essentially a non material or spiritual one.

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Speaker 1: But we have for the most part lost our ability

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Speaker 1: to access that world. So it appears to people in

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Speaker 1: strange physical ways to let itself be known. So through

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Speaker 1: this experience in the body. Because that's the importing point here.

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Speaker 1: This experience is not just information and an intellectual sense.

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Speaker 1: They experience these abductions in the body and as several

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Speaker 1: abductees have said to me, we only know the body

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Speaker 1: now as embodied creatures. If you want to reach us,

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Speaker 1: you have to reach us through the body, because that's

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Speaker 1: the only language we understand it. So that tells us

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Speaker 1: that the creatures are real in this on a sense.

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Speaker 1: As we have seen earlier, Mac had taken part in

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Speaker 1: attempts to access a spiritual realm through meditation, taking LSD,

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Speaker 1: and most importantly, through holotropic breathing, a controlled breathing technique

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Speaker 1: intended to cause non normal states. In nineteen ninety four,

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Speaker 1: science writer Jill Nemark interviewed Mac for an article in

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Speaker 1: Psychology Today. In it, they discussed Mac's experience with this

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Speaker 1: technique the first time he tried it. Macna only quote

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Speaker 1: reexperienced his mother's death when he was eight months old.

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Speaker 1: He also felt quote my father's grief at the time.

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Speaker 1: I got more out of one session that I had

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Speaker 1: in all my years of analysis. Later in the session,

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Speaker 1: he said, I became a Russian father in the sixteenth century,

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Speaker 1: a man whose four year old son was decapitated by

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Speaker 1: Mongol hordes. Mac found analogs to his conception of the

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Speaker 1: phenomenon existing in both the material and spiritual realms. He

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Speaker 1: saw the stories of shamans as describing experiences similar to

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Speaker 1: those of abductees. In his book Abduction, he quotes the

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Speaker 1: great Romanian sociologist Murcia Aliada. During his initiation, the shaman

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Speaker 1: learns how to penetrate into other dimensions of reality and

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Speaker 1: maintain himself there. His trials, whatever the nature of them,

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Speaker 1: endow him with the sensitivity that can perceive and integrate

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Speaker 1: these new experiences. Through the strangely sharp and senses of

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Speaker 1: the shaman, the sacred manifests itself. He would bring the

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Speaker 1: shaman concept to his work with experiencers, making those connections concrete,

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Speaker 1: even if the meaning wasn't always clear to the subject.

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Speaker 1: This is abduction experiencer Elizabeth Anglin, who worked with Mac.

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Speaker 1: He listened a lot, and he took a lot of notes,

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Speaker 1: and then when he wanted to get his opinion, he

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Speaker 1: would say some blah blah blah, Well, you know, I

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Speaker 1: think it might be a shamonic thing. Mac would also

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Speaker 1: talk about the phenomenon in terms of what he considered

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Speaker 1: the false choice between the real and the not real.

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Speaker 1: He wrote, we've got make belief phenomena and we've got reality.

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Speaker 1: I think we need a category of phenomena for which

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Speaker 1: we have no category. Ralph Blumenthal, Well, he said that

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Speaker 1: this phenomenon has a way of penetrating our reality, and

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Speaker 1: when it penetrates, it penetrates with a great deal of vividness.

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Speaker 1: There's nothing subtle about it. These people who reported these

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Speaker 1: encounters say this was more real to me than reality.

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Speaker 1: This was not a dream. John Macrone a book on nightmares.

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Speaker 1: He studied dreams and nightmares, and these people said, look,

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Speaker 1: I know the difference between a nightmare and reality. This

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Speaker 1: was not a nightmare. So the best he could come

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Speaker 1: up with was that this was some kind of a

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Speaker 1: reality that was penetrating our reality. It was absolutely real,

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Speaker 1: but not our everyday reality. It was happening in some

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Speaker 1: other dimension, on some other way that he could not explain.

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Speaker 1: But it was absolutely real to the people who encountered it.

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Speaker 1: The phenomenon is real, but not from our reality. What

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Speaker 1: does this mean to me? It sounds a little like stubbornness. Sure,

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Speaker 1: I can't prove it's real, but that's because you're only

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Speaker 1: willing to consider our reality. But what reason do we

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Speaker 1: have to believe that there is another reality? We seem

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Speaker 1: to be far adrift of science. Just how far adrift

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Speaker 1: is clear when this reasoning is applied to topics outside

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Speaker 1: the abduction phenomenon. This passage from Jill Nemark's Psychology Today

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Speaker 1: article begins with a quote from Mac. He says, quote,

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Speaker 1: I know this sounds like hedging, but we don't know

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Speaker 1: in what reality this occurs. False and true memory don't apply.

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Speaker 1: This is powerfully real, But in what reality? I asked

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Speaker 1: him where he felt he belonged in the raging controversy

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Speaker 1: over memory and abuse. Does he think memories of satanic

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Speaker 1: abuse might be happening in an alternate reality? He postulated

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Speaker 1: that indeed they might, saying, perhaps those memories are experientially true,

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Speaker 1: but they didn't factually happen in this reality. What does

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Speaker 1: this mean in the fourth dimension or perhaps the sixth dimension?

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Speaker 1: So again, this article was written in nineteen ninety four,

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Speaker 1: before the so called Satanic panic had been comprehensive debunked.

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Speaker 1: He says about a controversy that is raging within psychology,

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Speaker 1: his field of expertise, that is possible that memories of

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Speaker 1: abuse are true but from a different reality. What does

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Speaker 1: that mean? What do you do with this idea? People

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Speaker 1: were on trial at the time on charges of abuse

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Speaker 1: stemming from these quote unquote recovered memories. The more I

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Speaker 1: read John Mack, the more I got the sense that

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Speaker 1: he was approaching the topic backwards. He wasn't gathering this

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Speaker 1: testimonial evidence and trying to determine whether it described a

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Speaker 1: phenomenon that was actually physically happening and not just a

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Speaker 1: psychological perception. He assumed that the stories were things that

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Speaker 1: had actually happened, and he was trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: how to explain them. And it leads to reasoning like

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Speaker 1: this example from Max nineteen ninety four book Passport to

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Speaker 1: the Cosmos, where the following is suggested as necessary to

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Speaker 1: understanding what is going on. An awareness of unseen realities

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Speaker 1: of the Infidel in which the laws of space, time,

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Speaker 1: reality as we know them seem not to apply. This

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Speaker 1: can create a dilemma or a mind that would stay

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Speaker 1: in the duality of internal external, for the phenomenon appears

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Speaker 1: to be both or now one than the other. In fact,

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Speaker 1: mac even puts forward the idea that whatever is behind

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Speaker 1: the phenomenon is actually intentionally creating a situation where there

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Speaker 1: is enough evidence to convince believers, but not enough to

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Speaker 1: win over skeptics. It is as if the agent or

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Speaker 1: intelligence at work here we're parodying, mocking, tricking, and deceiving

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Speaker 1: the investigators, providing just enough physical evidence to win over

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Speaker 1: those who are prepared to believe in the phenomenon, but

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Speaker 1: not enough to convince the skeptic. In this apparently frustrating situation,

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Speaker 1: there may lie a deeper truth and possibility. He goes

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Speaker 1: on to say that the phenomenon might be inviting us

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Speaker 1: to change our way of looking at things, to expand

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Speaker 1: our consciousness, to do, in other words, what John Mack

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Speaker 1: wants us to do. John Mack died tragically when he

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Speaker 1: was hit by a car in London on September twenty seventh,

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Speaker 1: two thousand and four. He was seventy four years old.

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Speaker 1: His final years were marked by two controversies, which I

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Speaker 1: won't go into depth about, but which should be mentioned.

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Speaker 1: The first was a critical article in the April twenty fifth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four edition of Time magazine. It featured the

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Speaker 1: revelation that one of Mac's subjects, a woman named Donna Bassett,

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Speaker 1: was a debunker. Earlier, she had reported to Mac in

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Speaker 1: a session that, among other things, she had been on

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Speaker 1: a spacecraft with both John F. Kennedy and Nikita Kruschoff,

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Speaker 1: and that she comforted the crying Cruischoff again. Ralph Blumenthal, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this was a very sad episode, as she wanted to

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Speaker 1: destroy him. She thought he was a cult leader and

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Speaker 1: she'd made the whole thing up. Well, it turns out

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Speaker 1: that she probably did have real alien encounter experiences because

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Speaker 1: she told them to other people before encountering John Mack.

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Speaker 1: She had a very strange background herself, and for whatever reason,

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Speaker 1: she was determined to bring John Mack down. And Time

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00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: magazine picked this up and made a big issue of it,

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Speaker 1: and it hurt John mac tremendously. It was damaging to him,

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Speaker 1: no doubt, but it did not undermine all the other

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Speaker 1: cases he had dealt with, and it was just a

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Speaker 1: very very sad episode. There was more to the article

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Speaker 1: than Bassett's allegations at general skepticism about his work. One

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Speaker 1: passage reads, psychologists and ethicists do not question max sanity

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Speaker 1: so much as his motives and methodology. They charge that

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Speaker 1: he is misusing the techniques of hypnosis, trying to shape

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Speaker 1: the memories of his subjects to suit his vision of

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Speaker 1: an intergalactic future. And very possibly endangering the emotional health

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Speaker 1: of his patients in the process. Quote. If this were

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Speaker 1: just an example of some zany new outer limit of

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Speaker 1: how foolish psychology and psychiatry can be in that wrong hands,

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Speaker 1: we'd look at it, roll our eyes and walk away,

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Speaker 1: says University of California, Berkeley professor Richard O'she. Quote, but

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Speaker 1: the use of his techniques in counseling is substantially harming

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Speaker 1: lots of people. End quote. The second controversy was that

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Speaker 1: Harvard launched an unprecedented secret committee to look into Max's research.

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Speaker 1: Harvard was very uncomfortable with his research and eventually conveying

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Speaker 1: a secret committee and inquisition. I call it because that's

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Speaker 1: a word that they used at one to see if

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Speaker 1: he was doing anything wrong inappropriate. And they kept asking

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00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 1: him what is his proof, and he kept saying, well,

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00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,719
Speaker 1: I really don't have proof apart from the stories that

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00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: all these people have told. The Harvard committee echoed the

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Speaker 1: concerns of Richard o'she about Max's treatment of his subjects.

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00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: Max Lawyer wrote a letter during the inquiry that was

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Speaker 1: made public and quoted in an article in the student

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Speaker 1: newspaper The Harvard Crimson. The letter asserted that a draft

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00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 1: of the committee reports stated, quote to communicate in any

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00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: way whatsoever to a person who has reported a close

409
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 1: encounter with an extraterrestrial life form that this experience might

410
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: well have been real is professionally irresponsible on the part

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Speaker 1: of any academic scientific professional person. With this letter, the

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00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 1: committee's work became public and was viewed in some quarters

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Speaker 1: as a threat to free inquiry. In the end, the

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Speaker 1: committee quote reaffirmed doctor Mac's academic freedom to study what

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Speaker 1: he wishes and to state his opinions without impediment end quote.

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Speaker 1: It concluded, quote doctor mac remains a member and good

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Speaker 1: standing of the Harvard Faculty of Medicine. I want to

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00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,919
Speaker 1: come back to the Abduction conference because there was something

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Speaker 1: that emerged from the conference that I think is important

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00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: to remember about John Mack. Western Michigan University professor Michael

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00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 1: Swords wrote a review of the conference proceedings in a

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven issue of the Journal of Scientific Exploration.

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00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: He wrote, the conference at MIT split the public unity

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00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: of American researchers into at least two major schools of

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00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: opinion deeply disagree to this day. Both continue to believe

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00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 1: that the phenomenon is extraterrestrially based. Hopkins, Jacobs, and others

427
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: were present to elaborate what some have come to refer

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00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 1: to as the Dark Marauders view of abductions, but conference

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Speaker 1: co organizer and world known Harvard psychologist John Mack presented

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Speaker 1: an entirely different spin. These experiences are extraterrestrially caused, but

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Speaker 1: are positively transformational for the human spirit. What sticks with

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Speaker 1: me about Mac was his essential optimism. He saw the

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Speaker 1: abduction phenomenon as being a force for what he considered

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Speaker 1: to be good in the world, and I think this

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Speaker 1: optimism carried over to the way he interacted with his subjects.

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Speaker 1: I agree with Richard o'shee and the draft of the

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Speaker 1: Harvard Committee report that telling your patients that they have

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Speaker 1: had real alien encounters is hugely problematic. But Mac, in

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Speaker 1: contrast with Bud Hopkins, and as we will see, David Jacobs,

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Speaker 1: tried to bolster his subjects again Elizabeth Anglin and Mac.

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Speaker 1: He wouldn't poo poo you and say, oh, you poor

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Speaker 1: little victim. He'd be like, you've been working full time,

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Speaker 1: you've been going to school full time, and you survived that,

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Speaker 1: and you survived that like twice a week for the

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Speaker 1: past how many months? So you know what you are.

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Speaker 1: You're a survivor. That's what you are. You're not a victim,

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Speaker 1: You're a survivor. And Hopkins would really sort of and

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Speaker 1: my sense of its time went on was he was

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Speaker 1: really getting off on the victimization of it and saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: these poor victims, these poor victims, these poor victims. But

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Speaker 1: also at the same time you sort of controlling the

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Speaker 1: narrative more than I felt mac ever did, and Jacobs

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Speaker 1: was worse, much worse next time on Strange Arrivals. Strange

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Speaker 1: Arrivals is a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm and Mild

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Speaker 1: from Aaron Manky. This episode was written and hosted by

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Speaker 1: Toby Ball and produced by Rima L. Kayali Jesse Funk,

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00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 1: and Naami Griffin, with executive producers Alexander Williams, Matt Frederick,

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Speaker 1: and Aaron Mankey, and supervising producer Josh Thaine. Learn more

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Speaker 1: about the show at Grimm and Miild dot com, slash

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00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals, and find more podcasts from iHeartRadio by visiting

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00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

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Speaker 1: your favorite shows,