1
00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:27,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's cut straight to the chase with some fairly

2
00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:31,800
Speaker 1: terrifying numbers. During the early modern period of European history

3
00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:38,000
Speaker 1: that stretches from around fourteen fifty to seventeen fifty, somewhere

4
00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,879
Speaker 1: in the neighborhood of one thousand people, the overwhelming majority

5
00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,280
Speaker 1: of them being women, were tried for the crime of witchcraft,

6
00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:50,040
Speaker 1: and about half of these folks fifty were executed, usually

7
00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:54,720
Speaker 1: by being burned alive. But why why because they were

8
00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:59,720
Speaker 1: suspected of being witches null. Yes, the great witch panic

9
00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:04,759
Speaker 1: of those years you mentioned, Yeah, the great uh three

10
00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,479
Speaker 1: year witch panic was a big one. That's a big one.

11
00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:10,319
Speaker 1: That was a big one. It was. That's why it's

12
00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:13,560
Speaker 1: the great witch panic and the mediocre witch the other

13
00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,840
Speaker 1: lesser witch panic. Hey, let's give a shout out to

14
00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:22,320
Speaker 1: our super producer, Casey Pegram, who, to our knowledge has

15
00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:26,520
Speaker 1: never in fact hunted witches. That's true, right, Casey, that

16
00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:29,880
Speaker 1: is correct. Yes, no witch hunting in my past, Casey

17
00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:33,919
Speaker 1: on the case. That's good. That's good to know because

18
00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:38,360
Speaker 1: it's not a very noble pursuit. Yeah, we read about

19
00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,000
Speaker 1: it in history, some of the most famous ones being

20
00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:44,000
Speaker 1: like the Salem witch trials, the one that was famously

21
00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:48,600
Speaker 1: depicted in The Crucible, the play by Arthur Miller, and

22
00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:53,120
Speaker 1: it typically involves a bunch of over zealous religious nuts

23
00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,280
Speaker 1: looking for something that just is not there. Right. It's

24
00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,480
Speaker 1: strange because I had studied this in THEA asked, there's

25
00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:02,440
Speaker 1: a book I wouldn't recommend called The Devil in the

26
00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:06,800
Speaker 1: Shape of a Woman. Witchcraft in colonial New England. And

27
00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,920
Speaker 1: one of the most interesting things about the witch hunting

28
00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:16,600
Speaker 1: hysteria and the practice that continued for so long in

29
00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,800
Speaker 1: central Europe, but most of Europe and in the colonial

30
00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:24,160
Speaker 1: US or what would become the US, is that in

31
00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:28,959
Speaker 1: many cases there were people who genuinely believe that some

32
00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,800
Speaker 1: occult or supernatural event was occurring. But there were also

33
00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,280
Speaker 1: people who were prosecuting these cases out of a more cynical,

34
00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:41,239
Speaker 1: self interested motivation, because you see, if you could prove

35
00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:45,080
Speaker 1: that someone was a witch in a lot of jurisdictions,

36
00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:49,120
Speaker 1: their belongings and their estate would later go to you.

37
00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:51,160
Speaker 1: I did not know that then. So it was a

38
00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,440
Speaker 1: way to disenfranchise women. Oh, not only disenfranchise women, it

39
00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:59,200
Speaker 1: was a way to persecute women for uh their sexuality

40
00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,440
Speaker 1: and a lot of the language. So in the in

41
00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,280
Speaker 1: the book we're going to talk about today, the Melius

42
00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:10,560
Speaker 1: Maleficarum revolves around women being temptresses in some way or

43
00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:15,640
Speaker 1: somehow using their sexuality to lure men to be tools

44
00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,200
Speaker 1: of Satan in some way making them more open to

45
00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:22,680
Speaker 1: Satanic influence. So it's in large part a way of

46
00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:27,000
Speaker 1: punishing women for their sexuality, because a lot of these

47
00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,520
Speaker 1: men were either used to just um controlling women in

48
00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:32,720
Speaker 1: the form of a wife or in the form of

49
00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,560
Speaker 1: being some sort of higher up in a community and

50
00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:37,920
Speaker 1: having expecting to be cow towed to at all times

51
00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,440
Speaker 1: members of the opposite sex. In any sense that a

52
00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,320
Speaker 1: woman had some kind of power that they could not

53
00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,840
Speaker 1: understand it and maybe made them uncomfortable, they wanted to

54
00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:51,160
Speaker 1: kind of squash it. Absolutely absolutely and not even kind

55
00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:55,880
Speaker 1: of They definitively wanted this. Uh. This status quoth had

56
00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,800
Speaker 1: established to remain the same. The crime of witchcraft as

57
00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:04,080
Speaker 1: it was defined during this period of time consisted of

58
00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:08,560
Speaker 1: two main sort of branches. The first was the obvious one,

59
00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:13,920
Speaker 1: the practice of harmful magic, using some sort of mysterious

60
00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,640
Speaker 1: other worldly power to bring misfortune on other people in

61
00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:21,719
Speaker 1: your community. This could be um the a infliction of

62
00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:25,880
Speaker 1: a disease. Everybody gets sick. Let's blame that elderly person

63
00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,560
Speaker 1: who lives alone over by the edge of the woods.

64
00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,159
Speaker 1: It could be the death of human beings or livestock.

65
00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,400
Speaker 1: It could also often, going back to your note about sexuality, Noll,

66
00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,960
Speaker 1: it could be the crime of making men sexually impotent,

67
00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,960
Speaker 1: and so they're like, oh, I can't get aroused anymore.

68
00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:49,919
Speaker 1: You know what, It's not me, it's that elderly person

69
00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:53,080
Speaker 1: who lives alone on the other side of town. Yeah,

70
00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:54,800
Speaker 1: but didn't have to be elderly at all, right, it

71
00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,679
Speaker 1: could be anyone. It could be anyone. And these these

72
00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:03,039
Speaker 1: hunts were incredibly sense of at times. In Germany. In

73
00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,839
Speaker 1: nine in a place named qued Lindberg, a hundred and

74
00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,200
Speaker 1: thirty three women were executed in one day and there

75
00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,840
Speaker 1: was a witch hunt in Germany. Is very bad about this.

76
00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,240
Speaker 1: That left two German villages would get this, only one

77
00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:21,880
Speaker 1: female resident each. It's insane. So that's the that's the

78
00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:27,479
Speaker 1: context we want to lay out here. This stuff was tragic, horrific,

79
00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,359
Speaker 1: and looking back from our time in the modern day,

80
00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:35,800
Speaker 1: it could seem like some sort of group insanity. But

81
00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,719
Speaker 1: we have to remember the people who were prosecuting these cases,

82
00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:45,880
Speaker 1: didn't just believe that they were acting logically. They wanted

83
00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:50,640
Speaker 1: to I guess formalized this. And that leads us to

84
00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,960
Speaker 1: the book you mentioned, Noel. The proper name is what

85
00:05:55,240 --> 00:06:00,080
Speaker 1: Malius malefic Harum and also known as the Hammer of

86
00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,159
Speaker 1: the witches or in German. I love this hex and Hamma.

87
00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:08,760
Speaker 1: There we go to and so what is this? It is,

88
00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:13,000
Speaker 1: as you said, Ben, a codified book of all of

89
00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,279
Speaker 1: these things that we just mentioned. Okay, so the writers

90
00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:17,280
Speaker 1: of this book didn't just invent this stuff out of

91
00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,799
Speaker 1: whole cloth. It was kind of in the zeitgeist already,

92
00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:22,800
Speaker 1: which is do exist in the Bible, right, I mean

93
00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:27,640
Speaker 1: this idea of black magic or of you know, um Antichrist,

94
00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:32,320
Speaker 1: sort of of some kind of anti god entity. Sorcery

95
00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,640
Speaker 1: as an infernal power is the word which in the Bible. Ben.

96
00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:42,160
Speaker 1: It's a fascinating question because there are various kinds of

97
00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,400
Speaker 1: things that we call witchcraft and divination in the in

98
00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:50,680
Speaker 1: the Hebrew Bible, and it's generally mentioned in a disapproving tone.

99
00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,600
Speaker 1: But the problem that we run into is a problem

100
00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,560
Speaker 1: of translation, because somebody might translate something that just says

101
00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,520
Speaker 1: like orsery or sooth saying into witchcraft. Yeah, I've got

102
00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,240
Speaker 1: one here from Leviticus n one that uses the word spiritists.

103
00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,240
Speaker 1: It says, do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists,

104
00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,080
Speaker 1: for you will be defiled by them. I am the

105
00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:18,200
Speaker 1: Lord your God. Or from Chronicles three six, he sacrificed

106
00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,840
Speaker 1: his children in the valley of ben Hannon, practiced divination

107
00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:26,320
Speaker 1: and witchcraft, sought omens, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He

108
00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:28,840
Speaker 1: did much evil in the eyes of the Lord, arousing

109
00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:33,360
Speaker 1: his anger. So to your point been translation, but very

110
00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,720
Speaker 1: interesting to to google this and see, yes, witchcraft is

111
00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:39,920
Speaker 1: in that form in the Bible. And if the the

112
00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:45,880
Speaker 1: W word itself the priv yeah, then like Galatians five

113
00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,800
Speaker 1: nineteen mentions, it's there are several places where you can

114
00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:55,000
Speaker 1: find Bible verses about witchcraft. But to your point, Noel,

115
00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,600
Speaker 1: which I think is a very important point, the authors

116
00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:03,160
Speaker 1: of this, who are understood to be two Dominicans, a

117
00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:06,720
Speaker 1: guy named Johann Springer and a guy named Heinrich Kramer,

118
00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:11,280
Speaker 1: they weren't just saying let's give people our opinion of

119
00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:13,520
Speaker 1: which is they were. They were pulling, as you said,

120
00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:17,600
Speaker 1: from a a tradition and a system of beliefs that

121
00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:22,160
Speaker 1: had existed long before them. The book, or the document

122
00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:25,480
Speaker 1: as some people prefer to call it, was written around

123
00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,880
Speaker 1: and when they were writing it, they were essentially compiling

124
00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,080
Speaker 1: all these other things into sort of a one stop shop,

125
00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:37,560
Speaker 1: but not without their own editorializing. Right. That's a big

126
00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:41,160
Speaker 1: part of it because this guy, Heinrich Kramer um was

127
00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,600
Speaker 1: sort of like a failed witch hunter and he never

128
00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,480
Speaker 1: really got the respect that he felt he was due

129
00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,440
Speaker 1: and was kind of a bitter man and decided he

130
00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:55,280
Speaker 1: wanted to spread the word and kind of get people

131
00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,160
Speaker 1: thinking about these things that were very dear to him,

132
00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:03,160
Speaker 1: persecuting but aventially wicked women for whatever reason. You know,

133
00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,320
Speaker 1: he wanted to influence that and kind of have his

134
00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:08,920
Speaker 1: say on how people were gonna look at this, and

135
00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,280
Speaker 1: he put all this in a book along with his

136
00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:17,079
Speaker 1: partner Jacob Springer. That's correct, And there's an interesting part

137
00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:21,439
Speaker 1: of Kramer's motivation that we have to examine here. You know,

138
00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:26,200
Speaker 1: how some unscrupulous people on a get rich quick scheme

139
00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:30,719
Speaker 1: will self publish a book on Amazon and then use

140
00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,120
Speaker 1: that book as sort of a bona fide or a

141
00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,960
Speaker 1: mark of their own credibility. Totally expertise, Like, you know,

142
00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:40,280
Speaker 1: the best way to become a self help expert is

143
00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,360
Speaker 1: just to write a book that purports to teach people

144
00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:47,760
Speaker 1: to help themselves. Kramer also wanted, in addition to warning

145
00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,360
Speaker 1: the general public, or at least the literate public, against

146
00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:52,960
Speaker 1: the danger of witchcraft, he also wanted this book to

147
00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:58,079
Speaker 1: give him the official authority to hunt witches. And again,

148
00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:03,080
Speaker 1: this guy has somewhat of a myopic focus, but it

149
00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:07,720
Speaker 1: also has some alarmist nature to it. It doesn't. Over

150
00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,920
Speaker 1: the what two hundred and fifty six pages, it attempts

151
00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:14,760
Speaker 1: to do several things. First, it wants to prove that

152
00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:19,360
Speaker 1: witches and witchcraft are real. Don't be deceived. They are real.

153
00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,400
Speaker 1: They're out to get you. Second, building from that and

154
00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,800
Speaker 1: says these witches are real, they are infernal, they work

155
00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:30,080
Speaker 1: with demonic forces, so therefore they must be killed. And

156
00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:35,199
Speaker 1: then third, it wants to convince readers that not only

157
00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:37,880
Speaker 1: are witches real, not only are they dangerous, but they

158
00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,559
Speaker 1: are a sign of the apocalypse, the end of the world.

159
00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:43,520
Speaker 1: And it does a really interesting thing that creates a

160
00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:48,240
Speaker 1: real conundrum for when these witch trials start going completely bonkers.

161
00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,880
Speaker 1: It um points out that the Bible says there are witches. Therefore,

162
00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,439
Speaker 1: if you don't believe in witches, you are an accessory

163
00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:01,360
Speaker 1: to their evil crimes. Yeah, similar to the old Edmund

164
00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,080
Speaker 1: Burke quote the only thing necessary for the triumph of

165
00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,800
Speaker 1: evil is for good men to do nothing. Only even

166
00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,840
Speaker 1: further right, Because this is literally saying if you think

167
00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,200
Speaker 1: it means, you know, if if if you're standing up

168
00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,800
Speaker 1: for the truth and saying that this is not real,

169
00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,320
Speaker 1: this there is no witchcraft, or this person definitely is

170
00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,240
Speaker 1: not a witch, then they can accuse you of being

171
00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,400
Speaker 1: a heretic yourself simply for not believing what you're supposed

172
00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,000
Speaker 1: to believe. If you're not with us, you're against us,

173
00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:36,360
Speaker 1: against us. Okay, So if we divide the book we

174
00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,320
Speaker 1: talked about kind of three aims of the book, we

175
00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:44,760
Speaker 1: can also divide the work into three rough sections. The

176
00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,920
Speaker 1: first is, as we said, this explanation that which is

177
00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:51,079
Speaker 1: a real they are dangerous. The second is a guide

178
00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:54,280
Speaker 1: for the experts the clergy on how to recognize a witch.

179
00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:58,040
Speaker 1: And they get pretty specific, you know, like devil's marks,

180
00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:01,120
Speaker 1: which could be anything from a mole to scar right,

181
00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,439
Speaker 1: certain types of behavior or things that occur in their communities.

182
00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,880
Speaker 1: And then the third part. The final part is a

183
00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:13,559
Speaker 1: legal manual for how to properly accuse and persecute a

184
00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:17,719
Speaker 1: which and if finding them guilty spoiler alert, very few

185
00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,400
Speaker 1: people were found innocent to give them the death penalty.

186
00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,920
Speaker 1: And in the work, there's a really interesting bit of

187
00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:29,160
Speaker 1: double think here because the authors say that you shouldn't

188
00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,360
Speaker 1: be deceived if someone appears to be weak. They say,

189
00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:36,120
Speaker 1: in fact, the weak people are the most dangerous, which

190
00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,680
Speaker 1: is and what this meant is that a lot of

191
00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:42,080
Speaker 1: times people who lived on the fringes of society because

192
00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,920
Speaker 1: they were say mentally ill or they're very poor, they

193
00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:50,160
Speaker 1: became the number one targets. And then also we have

194
00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,160
Speaker 1: to face the facts. Uh. I'm pulling some of this

195
00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:57,040
Speaker 1: from a really excellent podcast called fifteen Minute History, with

196
00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:02,320
Speaker 1: an episode on witch hunting in Europe. The guests on

197
00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:06,040
Speaker 1: this episode has got named John E. Green, professor in

198
00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:09,240
Speaker 1: history at the University of Texas and Austin, and he

199
00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:14,160
Speaker 1: points out that a lot of times persecuting which has

200
00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:18,280
Speaker 1: made things even worse for the community because people who

201
00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:24,600
Speaker 1: would be considered witches would be like medical practitioners. Literally

202
00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:26,960
Speaker 1: the only healthcare in the village or in the town

203
00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:31,920
Speaker 1: or midwives, and you know, let's say a birth goes

204
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:36,320
Speaker 1: wrong through no no fault of the midwife. If you don't,

205
00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:38,600
Speaker 1: depending on their luck, they may be accused of purposely

206
00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:41,600
Speaker 1: killing the child. Or if you're treating someone who has

207
00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,360
Speaker 1: a disease and they don't get better because hey, it's

208
00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,959
Speaker 1: an incurable disease, then they flipped the script and say

209
00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:52,280
Speaker 1: they're not better, not because leprosy is incurable at the time,

210
00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,000
Speaker 1: but because you're a witch. How what what a what

211
00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,520
Speaker 1: a horrible position to be in literally being the like

212
00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,920
Speaker 1: first line of defense for helping people and opening yourself

213
00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,480
Speaker 1: up to this kind of scrutiny and ridicule. It reminds

214
00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:06,800
Speaker 1: me of that scene for talking about the tests and

215
00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:08,600
Speaker 1: like the things that were contained in this book, which

216
00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:12,000
Speaker 1: is also the kinds of tortures and how you should

217
00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,880
Speaker 1: go about torturing a witch to get a proper confession.

218
00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:17,400
Speaker 1: But it reminds me of that scene in Monty Python

219
00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:19,480
Speaker 1: the Holy Grail where they're trying to see if it's

220
00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,920
Speaker 1: a witch and they're like, does wood sink in water? No,

221
00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:24,960
Speaker 1: it floats, so then throw in the water and see

222
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,680
Speaker 1: if she floats. What else floats in water? A duck,

223
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,080
Speaker 1: and then the king is like, so if she weighs

224
00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,360
Speaker 1: the same as a duck, then she's a witch. It's

225
00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:37,160
Speaker 1: like this kind of circular logic. You know, this is satire, obviously,

226
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,360
Speaker 1: but that's the kind of stuff that was in this book.

227
00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:44,240
Speaker 1: And this book, although maybe it's started out as somewhat

228
00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:48,000
Speaker 1: of a specialized tool, this book becomes a wildly popular, right.

229
00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,680
Speaker 1: It goes through what twenty eight editions. I think there

230
00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:56,120
Speaker 1: are more than thirty thousand copies circulated throughout Europe. Yeah,

231
00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,040
Speaker 1: I think it's sold more copies than any book but

232
00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:04,640
Speaker 1: the Bible up until which is insane, especially when you

233
00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:08,240
Speaker 1: consider what a pain it was to make a book

234
00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:13,560
Speaker 1: at that time. So this also gets some endorsement from

235
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,720
Speaker 1: the papacy itself, the Pope issues of Papal bull. It's

236
00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:21,040
Speaker 1: a document that the Pope signs themselves stating the official

237
00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:25,080
Speaker 1: church opinion. And this is pre publication though, right, It's

238
00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:27,560
Speaker 1: like he kind of sanctioned them to do this research,

239
00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:32,479
Speaker 1: and this bull was included in the in the printing. Yes, yeah,

240
00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:37,360
Speaker 1: and this book Hexama is the only do all right,

241
00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,600
Speaker 1: thanks man. This book is the only work of its

242
00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:45,040
Speaker 1: kind to receive the official approval of the Catholic Church.

243
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:50,480
Speaker 1: Now people will tell you that there's some fairly convincing,

244
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:55,800
Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence that Kramer bribed the Pope to condone The

245
00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:59,400
Speaker 1: Hammer of the Witches. Yeah. I also read somewhere that

246
00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:04,120
Speaker 1: it's not even specifically about the Hammer of the Witches,

247
00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:06,800
Speaker 1: that they sort of almost like fudged it a little

248
00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,400
Speaker 1: bit to make it seem like it was more about that,

249
00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:12,400
Speaker 1: but it was actually a little broader and not specifically

250
00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:16,560
Speaker 1: condoning everything that they were putting forth in this book.

251
00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,600
Speaker 1: But it's like the best New York Times book review

252
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,520
Speaker 1: you could possibly get, are the best celebrity endorsement you

253
00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,680
Speaker 1: can ever imagine having, is having this thing included inside

254
00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:29,520
Speaker 1: your book jacket cover. Pope says, good to go. You know,

255
00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,520
Speaker 1: this is this is the this is the one. Yeah.

256
00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,840
Speaker 1: It's kind of like having writing a book about how

257
00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,520
Speaker 1: to be a better person and having uh an endorsement

258
00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:43,040
Speaker 1: from Mr Rogers or something. Not quite because we're talking

259
00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:46,720
Speaker 1: about God, you know, in divinity. But while we're talking

260
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,360
Speaker 1: about fudging this, there's an interesting thing we we mentioned.

261
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:55,160
Speaker 1: Jacob Springer or Johann Springer as he's often called. He

262
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:59,920
Speaker 1: was in later editions mentioned as a collaborator, but now

263
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,400
Speaker 1: with days, a lot of historians believe that his name

264
00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:06,400
Speaker 1: was just added as kind of an endorsement. Springer. Yeah,

265
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,760
Speaker 1: that's right, that's right. I read that too, and that

266
00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:13,720
Speaker 1: he didn't actually have much to do with the creation

267
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,840
Speaker 1: of the book, sort of like how Quentin Tarantino air

268
00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,959
Speaker 1: quotes presented the Man with the Iron Fist directed by Rizza,

269
00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:24,920
Speaker 1: and Tarantino didn't really have anything to do with probably

270
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,800
Speaker 1: hung out, I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure he probably had

271
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:29,920
Speaker 1: a chair with his name on it, said, and he

272
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,679
Speaker 1: probably made a rant about something in pop culture. But

273
00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:34,919
Speaker 1: that's just what he does. Yeah, that's just kind of

274
00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:37,040
Speaker 1: how Quintin is totally. So what was the what were

275
00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:39,320
Speaker 1: the bona fides of Springer? Again, Ben, I'm sorry if

276
00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:41,080
Speaker 1: he said it, Just help help me out. I want

277
00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,399
Speaker 1: to understand a little better. Yeah, he was dean of

278
00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:48,880
Speaker 1: the University of Cologne in Germany, and he was also

279
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:53,840
Speaker 1: a friar of some note. And here's the thing, the

280
00:17:53,880 --> 00:18:00,600
Speaker 1: bull itself, it was more intended to confirm powers that

281
00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:05,000
Speaker 1: inquisitors or that a guy named Henry in Staturus and

282
00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:09,119
Speaker 1: James Springer who were inquisitors already have to quote deal

283
00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,240
Speaker 1: with persons of every class and with every form of crime,

284
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,760
Speaker 1: for example, with witchcraft as being heresy. And it called

285
00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:21,720
Speaker 1: upon the Bishop of Strasbourg to lend um. This is

286
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,399
Speaker 1: a quote from the from the Bull, lend inquisitors all

287
00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:30,480
Speaker 1: possible support. And the reason that Kramer enlisted Springer was

288
00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,600
Speaker 1: because Springer's name is actually in the Bull. But it

289
00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:35,360
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with the book. It was more

290
00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:40,439
Speaker 1: about seeking out witchcraft and prosecuting it in general, because

291
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:42,960
Speaker 1: the law had changed where I believe it used to

292
00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:49,159
Speaker 1: be more a church specifically a church duty to seek

293
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,280
Speaker 1: these things out, but then it kind of became more

294
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,359
Speaker 1: of a municipal thing. And when we start seeing the

295
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:59,600
Speaker 1: crazy panic of witch hunt pandemonium, that's because it became

296
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:03,640
Speaker 1: a lot easier to do. Yeah, that's that's the thing,

297
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,520
Speaker 1: And I think that's that's well put. We would be

298
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,640
Speaker 1: remiss if we didn't mention that one of the things

299
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:15,840
Speaker 1: clearly condoned by the book is torture. Oh yeah, horrific torture. Yeah.

300
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:20,199
Speaker 1: Cramer's favorite was something called the strapato, which is a

301
00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,680
Speaker 1: device that attaches to the wrist and pulls some upwards,

302
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,080
Speaker 1: so the victims hang by their arms until their arms dislocated. Yeah,

303
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,080
Speaker 1: anytime we talk about this kind of stuff, I just

304
00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:33,040
Speaker 1: get the the hebe gebs so bad, like the thumb screws,

305
00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,840
Speaker 1: the ones that would literally shred your hands, you know,

306
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:38,120
Speaker 1: by like these vices that your hands would go in.

307
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:40,119
Speaker 1: And there was one that was some kind of like

308
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,399
Speaker 1: helmet you would put on with like a drill that

309
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:48,320
Speaker 1: would go right into your forehead. Um, just barbaric stuff.

310
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:50,600
Speaker 1: And another thing that was in the in the book

311
00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:54,679
Speaker 1: was a caveat saying you don't have to tell the

312
00:19:54,720 --> 00:20:00,080
Speaker 1: person you're accusing who accused them. Right. It also recommends,

313
00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:05,760
Speaker 1: oddly enough, deception in order to obtain confessions. So there's

314
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,879
Speaker 1: a quote here where it says, and when the implements

315
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,320
Speaker 1: of torture have been prepared, the judge, both in person

316
00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:13,879
Speaker 1: and through other good men, zealous and the faith, tries

317
00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,879
Speaker 1: to persuade the prisoner to confess the truth freely. But

318
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,199
Speaker 1: if he will not confess, he bid attendance, make the

319
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,960
Speaker 1: prisoner fast to the strapado or other implement of torture.

320
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:29,040
Speaker 1: The attendance obey forthwith yet with feigned agitation. Then at

321
00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:31,440
Speaker 1: the prayer of some of those present, the prisoners loosed

322
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,680
Speaker 1: again and taken aside and once more persuaded to confess,

323
00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,000
Speaker 1: being led to believe that he will, in that case

324
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:41,760
Speaker 1: not be put to death. That's why so many people confess,

325
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:44,720
Speaker 1: because they got tortured for some amount of time and

326
00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:47,160
Speaker 1: then they got pulled aside and someone said, hey, look,

327
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,840
Speaker 1: if you just come clean about this, it can end now.

328
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,280
Speaker 1: Of course you don't have to die. And we already

329
00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:58,400
Speaker 1: know this about military interrogation, that interrogation under torture does

330
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:02,400
Speaker 1: not yield uh results that are reliable, because people will

331
00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,320
Speaker 1: say anything if you'll stop doing the horrible thing to them,

332
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:10,480
Speaker 1: right exactly. And that's I mean, it's the I hate

333
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:12,240
Speaker 1: to say it, but torture is the tale as old

334
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,280
Speaker 1: as time. And didn't they also talk about the quote

335
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:21,159
Speaker 1: unquote more carnal inherent nature of women. Absolutely, that's what

336
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:22,959
Speaker 1: we're talking about the top of the show. UM, I

337
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,280
Speaker 1: feel like that's something it's inherent in this whole persecution

338
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,800
Speaker 1: of women for witchcraft. But yes, it carries over into

339
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:34,120
Speaker 1: this codified you know, book of all of these different techniques. Um.

340
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:38,080
Speaker 1: I was watching a documentary on this book on History Channel,

341
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:40,000
Speaker 1: and I forget the guy's name, but he was a

342
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,600
Speaker 1: scholar who specifically studies this work, and he pointed out

343
00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,679
Speaker 1: all of these very charged words that were used in

344
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,639
Speaker 1: the text, the words that didn't have to use and

345
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,159
Speaker 1: they were Latin obviously, um, but words that would mean

346
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:56,239
Speaker 1: something like disgusting or filth, you know, as opposed to

347
00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:00,240
Speaker 1: just um, you know, not good, like very chart large

348
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,960
Speaker 1: language or a word that meant um, a temptress or

349
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,359
Speaker 1: some kind of adulteress, you know. Where it was like,

350
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,640
Speaker 1: this is what these women will turn men into through

351
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:13,679
Speaker 1: their uh you know which Lee Wiles or whatever. So

352
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:18,199
Speaker 1: very charged language, very much within with a position, you know.

353
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,760
Speaker 1: And additionally, it's important to know there's a different definition

354
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:27,880
Speaker 1: of seduction at play here. It's completely possible, for instance,

355
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 1: for someone to have uh sexually assaulted an innocent person

356
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,200
Speaker 1: in a village and then say, I'm a good Christian man.

357
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 1: She seduced me through the use of witchcraft. Course, so

358
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:46,040
Speaker 1: in addition to me attacking her as a punishment her powers,

359
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,439
Speaker 1: she should be put to death. It reminds me of

360
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 1: the story we did about women being incarcerated for having

361
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,399
Speaker 1: sexually transmitted diseases, where that was flipped as well. And

362
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:59,119
Speaker 1: used by men to treat like men would give women

363
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,639
Speaker 1: these sexually transmit diseases and then act like they had

364
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,919
Speaker 1: given it to them, or use it to ostracize them

365
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 1: in some way. There was one story I believe where

366
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:08,119
Speaker 1: a man like left a woman on the side of

367
00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 1: the road or something like that. It's another one of

368
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 1: these really power dynamics that is again tail as old

369
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,919
Speaker 1: as time, and we see it all codified in this

370
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:18,760
Speaker 1: book here, like this is the way to do it.

371
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:29,240
Speaker 1: There's a pretty interesting argument from Atlas Obscure by Sarah

372
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 1: last Cow about about the hammer of the witches, which,

373
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 1: you know what, while we're at it, shouldn't it be

374
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,639
Speaker 1: the hammer for the witches? Just grammatically the witches do

375
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 1: not have the power, right. So what they found was

376
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 1: that the Malics Maleficarum was once thought to be the

377
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 1: handbook for witch hunters, but more recent research has found

378
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 1: that maybe it wasn't as influential as we initially thought.

379
00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 1: Because you're right and all that um that Aprile Bull

380
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 1: from four eighty four the book was written in four six,

381
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:09,720
Speaker 1: published in fourteen eight seven, that Papal Bull allows witchcraft prosecutions.

382
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 1: But as you said, doesn't specifically say this is the book,

383
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,200
Speaker 1: but it named that guy Springer, which is the reason

384
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 1: that Kramer needed to have him as his co author,

385
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,680
Speaker 1: because that allowed him to use that as a manipulation.

386
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 1: And I think we've made it clear. But this thing

387
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,399
Speaker 1: caught on like wildfire and spread even to like the

388
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 1: New World, right, you know, which is where the Salem

389
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 1: stuff comes in. I mean, this became a thing and

390
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 1: it was literally this like best seller, but not just

391
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 1: one that people were talking about around the water cooler.

392
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 1: This actually caused the deaths of what was that figure

393
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 1: at the top of the show, Ben all the thousands

394
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,719
Speaker 1: of women the early modern period, approximately a hundred thousand,

395
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 1: fifty thousand of whom that's excuse me, however, stated the

396
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 1: number of got you got? I think I said hundreds

397
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 1: of that, but hundreds of thousands of women who were

398
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 1: persecuted and a lesser number who were actually killed, but

399
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 1: in the most gruesome and horrific ways. Eventually, and to

400
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,160
Speaker 1: the point about the perceived importance of the book, as

401
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,239
Speaker 1: it was catching on with the public, it looks like

402
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,919
Speaker 1: some members of the clergy were becoming increasingly I don't know,

403
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 1: skeptical of the book would be oddly enough a good word.

404
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 1: Leaders of the Spanish Inquisition didn't put too much stock

405
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 1: in the Hammer, and by at least the fifteen thirties

406
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 1: they were actively warning their own officials away from it

407
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 1: because maybe they saw it as sort of a personal

408
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 1: mission of Cramer's, maybe a little more self interest than

409
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 1: public interest. But it was still influential enough that people

410
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,919
Speaker 1: would commission specific copies of it. And I guess it's

411
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: important for us to mention that while the vast majority

412
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 1: of people prosecuted for witchcraft were women, there were dudes

413
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 1: in there too, and they were also put to death.

414
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 1: It was kind of anything goes. Um, I've got a

415
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 1: couple of resources that I'd like to plug really quick,

416
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: interested in finding out more about this stuff. Um. I

417
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 1: know you and I both love the film The which

418
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,400
Speaker 1: I feel like that displays these attitudes very strongly. There's

419
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 1: a young girl character who kind of is represents that

420
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 1: sexuality that we're talking about, and there's some kind of

421
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 1: telling shots that show that that's not only an issue

422
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 1: for the man, it's an issue for the mother, because

423
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: the mother is almost even as much um threatened by

424
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 1: that as as any you know, authority figure male might

425
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 1: be and that becomes a theme, and this idea of

426
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:38,919
Speaker 1: a witch harming crops or livestock is represented, and just

427
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: the kind of idea of this which being is it real?

428
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,120
Speaker 1: Is it not real? Is it just religious zelotry? Run

429
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 1: a muck. That's the thing that's fun about that movie.

430
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 1: But there's also the subtle argument for air got poison.

431
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 1: That's right, that's right, that they're all hallucinating on some

432
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 1: kind of poisoned crop, poisoned corn that has hoots and

433
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,880
Speaker 1: genic effects um, which is one of the the UH

434
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 1: possible explanations for the Salem which trials which here and

435
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 1: how stuff works are Buddy Matt works on a show

436
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 1: about Salem called Unobscure with Aaron Manky of lore fame

437
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: and our pal Alex Williams, who composed our theme. And now, thankfully,

438
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,360
Speaker 1: UH this book is surprise, surprise, no longer considered an

439
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: authoritative UH an authoritative guide to persecuting people for perceived

440
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 1: supernatural ability. Yeah, you don't hear so much about people burning,

441
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: which is anymore, thankfully, But you know there are still

442
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 1: which hunts of other varieties, and all this stuff is

443
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 1: very interesting to learn from and apply to modern day

444
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: um politics and things, which is something that they parallel

445
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: in that show un Obscured that we're talking about. And

446
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 1: for his part, Kramer kept writing and preaching until he

447
00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:01,639
Speaker 1: died in Bohemia in fifteen o five. His gambit to

448
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: increase his reputation or maybe to justify his failed attempts

449
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: at witch hunting, did seem to succeed. It's weird because

450
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 1: we said the Papal bull on persecution witchcraft was published

451
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 1: in the edition, but we didn't mention that by four

452
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 1: ninety the church had officially condemned the Hammer of the witches.

453
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 1: Was it because they were genuinely concerned for the damage

454
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 1: it was doing to communities? Or was it because he

455
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: was late with yet another bribe that we don't know? Well,

456
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 1: what we do know is that there was rampant corruption

457
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: in the Catholic Church and the papacy, and you know,

458
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 1: likely still is given what we know about some of

459
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: the scandals that that keep coming to light. So it's uh,

460
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: you know, the more things change and all that, and

461
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 1: this brings us to where's the silver lining here? Then

462
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: we need a silver lining. I have a comic recommendation.

463
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 1: See that's why the comic recommendation is helpful. It's our

464
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: insurance player. Yeah, okay, So I'm a fan of murky

465
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: and dark stuff, and I would like to recommend today

466
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: the comic Sir Edward Gray Witch Finder. So, no, you

467
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: you you know hell Boy and maybe Baltimore and all

468
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 1: those other things. I know hell Boy? Okay? So which

469
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 1: Finder is a spinoff from hell Boy and it concerns

470
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: a guy named Sir Edward Gray who is the Queen's

471
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: official expert on all things supernatural because of various interactions

472
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 1: he has had saving people from the nefarious activities of witches.

473
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: Edward Gray does not spoiler alert use the hammer of

474
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: the Witches the hex Muhamma. But it's a great story.

475
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, man, if you want to

476
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 1: borrow some of the trades, I have them, sure, as

477
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 1: soon as I returned lock and Key to you. That's right,

478
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 1: can't I can't be in double Dutch to you comic

479
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: book wise? Oh, I think he is so great. But

480
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: that's my comic recommendation for today. As far as we know,

481
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 1: there is not Thank Goodness, a graphic novel adaptation of

482
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 1: the nalias Malefic Cara. I think the Constantine comics are

483
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: really fun. That's great, and it's involves a lot of

484
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: different supernatural exploration and things like that. Um, I've always

485
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: been a huge fan of Sandman and Neil Gaiman's work,

486
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: and Constantine was in that briefly, and he has his

487
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: own series that's really great and has Witchcraft and Devilry

488
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 1: and uh Lucifer and all of these great deities and

489
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 1: but they have real personality, so that that's a fun one.

490
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: I wouldn't bother with the movie with Keanu Reeves. I would.

491
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 1: I would watch the movie after reading the comics are

492
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: just recognize it's a very different thing. And I have

493
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 1: heard that the TV series that got canceled was okay,

494
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 1: but I I liked it. I didn't see it. I

495
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: liked it. To whomever they picked to be the lead

496
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: actor for that the protagonist, he's got to be real.

497
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: Cockney can't be Kiana genuinely looks like John Postite. Counters

498
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: is a weird choice. There's a weird choice. I hear.

499
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 1: He's a great guy, though, you know, he seems like

500
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 1: a lovely dude. That's sad. Keanu on the bench meme

501
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 1: is is just delightful. There we go now, we're in,

502
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 1: you know, on a better note, we just had to

503
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 1: make ourselves cheer off. I think that's what it was.

504
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: We hope that it worked for you as well, Ridiculous historians.

505
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for tuning in. Thanks to our

506
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 1: super producer, an avowed opponent of witch Hunt's, Casey Pegro.

507
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: Thanks to our research pal Gabe Lucier for hipping us

508
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: to some of the details in this kind of depressing

509
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: but incredible story. Um. We already thanked Alex, we did,

510
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 1: but we get to think him do it again. It

511
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: was weird thinking amount of context. No, I think it

512
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 1: was great. You know. I still I feel like we

513
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 1: should let him know that we still do this because

514
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 1: you said he just nodded once. That's just what he does.

515
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 1: He's just he's I mean that as accompliment. But both

516
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 1: he and our long suffering buddy Matt Um both work

517
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 1: on this sail show and I'm scared with Aaron Mangy.

518
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: So check that out if you want to do a

519
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 1: deep dive into the Salem witch trials and how it

520
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: kind of dovetails a bit with American politics right now.

521
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:11,479
Speaker 1: It's a very interesting show. Um, and thanks to you

522
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: Ben for being a friend. Thanks to you, Noel, and

523
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 1: thanks to everyone in society who decided to stop burning

524
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 1: people alive the yeah yeah, I think that deserves it.

525
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 1: Thank you, and stay tuned for our next episode. We

526
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: can't tell you what it is yet for various reasons,

527
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: because because we don't know. Primarily it's because we haven't

528
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: picked one yet, but we can promise that we hope

529
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,719
Speaker 1: it will be interesting. It'll be an episode. See it then, folks,