1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: Michigan Child Protective Services maintains a central registry of anyone 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: who has ever been connected to an incident involving child endangerment. 3 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:10,479 Speaker 1: When we initially released our coverage of Terry Caesar's case, 4 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: his name was fully cleared in court, yet still remained 5 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: on that list, leaving one final battle for Terry to fight. 6 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:19,600 Speaker 1: Since then, I'm happy to report that Terry and his 7 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: team at Michigan Law were again successful in achieving justice, 8 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: clearing his name once and for all. Congratulations Terry, and 9 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: now our coverage as it originally aired. In the fall 10 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: of two thousand and four, Terry Caesar and his son 11 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: were living in Poor Huron, Michigan, occasionally staying with his girlfriend, Cheryl, 12 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 1: her six year old daughter, Darien, and sixteen month old 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: son Brendan. On the morning of October three, Cheryl and 14 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: her daughter were out while Terry stayed home with the 15 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: sleeping toddler. When they returned, Terry was panicked and Brenton 16 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: was unconscious and struggling to breathe. They rushed him to 17 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: the hospital. He was given a cat skin and then 18 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 1: transferred to Children's Hospital in Detroit. The child recovered after 19 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: a few days, but by then, a pediatric neurosurgeon had 20 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: ruled that bleeding on the brain indicated that Brendan had 21 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: been the victim of violence shaking, and Terry was immediately 22 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 1: the number one suspect, although he maintained that Brendan had 23 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 1: fallen from the couch. Terry was arrested in charged with 24 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: first degree child abuse. At trial, the doctor testified that 25 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: the findings associated with shaken baby syndrome were present and 26 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: could not have been caused by the shortfall that Terry 27 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: had described. It would seem highly unlikely that an experienced 28 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,320 Speaker 1: pediatric neurosurgeon could be mistaken. 29 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 2: But this is wrongful conviction. 30 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: Welcome back to RO I'm Jason Flahman today once again 31 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: talking about a case that revolves around the hypothesis that 32 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: has never been tested, but somehow, inexplicably became the accepted orthodoxy, fallback, 33 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it, of the medical community, 34 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: and thankfully it's long since been debunked. And of course 35 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 1: I'm talking about shaken baby syndrome or SBS. Now Terry 36 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: Caesar spent almost four years in prison because of this 37 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 1: faulty diagnosis, and more than a decade trying to clear 38 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,799 Speaker 1: his name, so Terry, I'm sorry for what you went through, man, 39 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: but welcome. 40 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 2: To Rafel Conviction. 41 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: Thank you well, you're welcome and joining us as the 42 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: co founder and co director of the Michigan Innocence Clinic 43 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: at Michigan Law School, Dave Moran. 44 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:47,679 Speaker 2: Thanks Dave. 45 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,079 Speaker 1: I understand that you and the Michigan Innisce Clinic have 46 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 1: already exonerated six people and counting of this non existent crime. 47 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 1: And we've talked about this so many times, most recently 48 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: with Zavi on Johnson, John jo Owns in Ohio, Robert Robertson, 49 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: who's on death row in Texas. To this day, the 50 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: list is long, and one case is more horrifying than 51 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,239 Speaker 1: the last one. We did a full breakdown of sbs 52 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: SO Shaking Baby Syndrome on Wrongful Conviction Junk Science with 53 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: our host Josh Dubin and the executive director of the 54 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 1: Center for Integrity and Forensic Sciences, Kate Judson, and Kate 55 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: is going to join us a bit later. Now. Terry's 56 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: case happened back in two thousand and four, when most 57 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: of the medical establishments still seemed to just reflexively jump 58 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: to the conclusion that if a kid was in some 59 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: sort of terrible distress, and the triad of findings were 60 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: there brain bleed, brain swelling, and bleeding behind the eyes 61 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: that automatically well must be diagnostic of child abuse. 62 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 3: But already, by that point there were challenges to shaking 63 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 3: baby syndrome, and of course Terry's case revolves around that, 64 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 3: is that the challenge to shaking baby syndrome should have 65 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 3: been presented. 66 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: John Plunkett had already done his seminal project on the subject, 67 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: and biomechanical research into our seat safety had already begun 68 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: to shred the viability of what was thought to be 69 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: established science. We now know it was junk science. But 70 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: unfortunately Terry's attorney didn't realize the court was constitutionally bound 71 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: to provide funding for an expert defense witness. And we're 72 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:16,919 Speaker 1: going to get into that a bit later on. But first, Terry, 73 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: you grew up in Port Huron, Michigan, right all my 74 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: life now, way before this happened. You had a son 75 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: named Cody, and a little after he was born, you 76 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: had a brush with an event in which there was 77 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 1: a sick child that a young woman had claimed was 78 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:30,559 Speaker 1: your child. This was all the way back in nineteen 79 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 1: ninety five. 80 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 4: So it was a girl. She was already three or 81 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 4: four months pregnant when we had slept together. One day 82 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 4: in like Juna ninety five, this girl shows up at 83 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:41,919 Speaker 4: my house with this baby in the stroller, telling me 84 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 4: it's my son, and something was wrong with the baby. 85 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 4: The baby wasn't breathing right. Ambulance took the kid from 86 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 4: my house. So they tried saying that I was the 87 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 4: father of this child. So I went through everything proven 88 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 4: that I wasn't the father. I took a DNA test. 89 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 1: But unbeknownst to you, your name had been on this 90 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: central registry in Michigan ever since nineteen ninety five, just 91 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 1: for having been mentioned in the same breath of another 92 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: child who had been brought into a hospital from your home. 93 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 2: Right. 94 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 4: So this is the craziest thing is I found out 95 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 4: about this in twenty twenty one. This was never brought 96 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 4: up in my two thousand and four case. But they 97 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 4: did use this against me in my two thousand and 98 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 4: four case, and I have paperwork to prove it. 99 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: Right. And as we so often see in ropic conviction cases, 100 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 1: is that sometimes the police are motivated by someone's criminal record, 101 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: and in this case, a perceived criminal record. Now, like 102 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,159 Speaker 1: you said, you didn't find out about this in twenty 103 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: twenty one, and we're going to get back to that later. 104 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 1: But Terry, let's go to your life at the time 105 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: of this incident. In two thousand and four. You were 106 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: thirty three years old, a single dad. Your son Cody 107 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: was around thirteen, right, tell me about him and about 108 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: your life together. 109 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 4: He was an honorable student, all star athlete. He wrestled football, basketball, baseball, 110 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 4: We played hockey. We would go camp and fish and 111 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 4: it was a great father son but we were like 112 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 4: best friends at the same. 113 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: And at that time, you were also in a relationship 114 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 1: with a woman named Cheryl Ganna, and she had a 115 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 1: couple of kids too, Darien, her six year old daughter, 116 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: and Brendan, who was about sixteen months old. 117 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 4: The kids got along great. We had weekends where the 118 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:14,239 Speaker 4: kids would be with us, and then we had weekends 119 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 4: where the kids would go with the other parents. So 120 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 4: we had our time, we had family time. Everything was good. 121 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: Were you living together at the time. 122 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 4: No, she had her own place. We would stay like 123 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 4: back and forth between the two. 124 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: So let's go now to October third, two thousand and four. 125 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: You and Cheryl were together with her kids at your place. 126 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 1: Tell me about that. 127 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 4: Sunday morning, my son Cody spent the night at his 128 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 4: friend Tyler Brown's house. Darien, Brendan, and Cheryl were with 129 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 4: me at the house, and while we were eating breakfast, 130 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 4: Darien was talking about that she wanted to go swimming. 131 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 4: Brendan's still sleeping at this time because he's been sick. 132 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 4: He had fallen at daycare the Thursday before this weekend 133 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 4: that he was with us. So she was gonna have 134 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 4: Brendan go to his grandma's house, and I told her, 135 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 4: I says, if you guys are only gonna be gone 136 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 4: for like an hour hour and a half, just let 137 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 4: him sleep a little over an hour after they left, 138 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 4: Brendan woke up. I took him out of the bedroom, 139 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 4: got him some stuff to eat. I finished up feeding them, 140 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 4: went into the kitchen to put the spoon in the 141 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 4: sink and throw the stuff away, and he was standing 142 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,239 Speaker 4: up on my couch with his back towards me, looking 143 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 4: forward at the TV. So I got down on my 144 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 4: hands and knees and came up around the couch and 145 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 4: was playing Gotcha. This was something that we did all 146 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 4: the time he was going back and forth on the couch, 147 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 4: you know, trying to get away from me tick on him. 148 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 4: And while I was doing that, I had to use 149 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 4: the bathroom. It was like right around the corner. I'm 150 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:42,119 Speaker 4: like five feet away, but I just can't see because 151 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 4: there's a corner there. From while I'm going to the bathroom, 152 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 4: I hear a thang thud, and then it's just complete 153 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:53,239 Speaker 4: silence besides the TV going, and you knew something was wrong. 154 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 4: So I came out and I don't see Brendan. I 155 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 4: take a couple more steps into the living room, and 156 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 4: then I see Brendan in between my couch and my table. 157 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 4: His legs are going up the couch, his butt is 158 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 4: on the floor and his left shoulders like propped up 159 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 4: against the leg of my table. But he's like he's 160 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 4: like slouched back in his head's back like limp noodled. 161 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: And with this fall happening between the couch and the 162 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: coffee table, potentially there was an impact on the table 163 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: before the impact with the floor. So you ran over 164 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: to him, like any loving parent would. 165 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 4: I grab his head and support his head, and I 166 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 4: picked Brendan up, and as soon as his head comes forward, 167 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 4: some blood trickles out of his mouth, so I look 168 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 4: in his mouth, and he bit his tongue, so I 169 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 4: can start to see like a bruising on his forehead, 170 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 4: and then it looked like a carpet mark, like little 171 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 4: like little red dots on the spot in the back 172 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 4: of his head. And you know, he's like barely breathing. 173 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: And I understand that Cheryl and Darien got home right 174 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 1: after this. 175 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,319 Speaker 4: Happened, and I told her Brendan fell and he's unresponsive. 176 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 4: We go support, you're in hospital, and within a minute 177 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:00,040 Speaker 4: or two they have him alert, crying, you know, so 178 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 4: I'm relieved. 179 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: Right good. So it seems like this is where that 180 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: story really should have ended. 181 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 4: The hospital staff kept telling me like, don't worry, your 182 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 4: son's gonna be fine, and I'm like, I'm not the father, 183 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 4: I'm her boyfriend, and everything from that point changed. 184 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 1: Meanwhile, the emergency room position, doctor Hunt noticed that one 185 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 1: of Brendan's pupils was dilated more than the other, so 186 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: he ordered a cat scan, and that scan showed a 187 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: subdualhematoma or bleeding in the brain that was having a 188 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: mass effect, meaning that it was pushing the brain to 189 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: one side. So he ordered to transfer to Children's Hospital 190 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 1: in Detroit by ambulance to see a pediatric neurosurgeon. With 191 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 1: the first of the findings showing up, it appears that 192 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:42,719 Speaker 1: suspicion was aroused that only continued to grow as they 193 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: were hearing back from the specialist, doctor Gilmer Hill. 194 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 3: In some of these hospitals, you have people who are 195 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 3: really firmly committed to the shaking baby hypothesis. It's kind 196 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 3: of like the hammer looking for the nail, and they're 197 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 3: quick to diagnose it. Doctor Gilmer Hill is the one 198 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:01,319 Speaker 3: who concludes this is child. Abases comes the star witness 199 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 3: against Terry at his trial. 200 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,839 Speaker 1: And then, of course they've called in CPS and detectives 201 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: at this point, and unfortunately Cheryl made an unfortunate choice. 202 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 4: Cheryl spoke with the detective and the CPS before I did, 203 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:15,679 Speaker 4: and said that they want to talk to me, and 204 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 4: that she told them that she was there and she 205 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 4: picked up Brendan. 206 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: That wasn't true. Of course, why do you think Cheryl 207 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: said that so? 208 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 3: I think she panicked. She was afraid that it would 209 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 3: somehow look bad on her if she admitted that Brendan 210 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 3: had been injured while he was in the care of 211 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 3: a boyfriend. 212 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 4: I have no idea what to say now, I'm already 213 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 4: being looked at here and being detained, So like a dummy, 214 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 4: I agreed and said that she was there, and she 215 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 4: picked them up. So Cheryl's brother was a deputy sheriff 216 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 4: and his wife at the time. She took it amongst 217 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 4: herself to call the sheriff's department and talk to a 218 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 4: detective and let them know that you might want to 219 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 4: talk with Cheryl again because the story she gave you 220 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 4: wasn't the truth. 221 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by global law firm Greenberg Trauig 222 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,199 Speaker 1: through its pro bono program. Greenberg Trowig leverages its more 223 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: than twenty six hundred lawyers across forty four offices to 224 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 1: serve the greater good of our communities and provide equal 225 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: access to justice for all. In the field of criminal justice, 226 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: Greenberg Trowrig attorneys have exonerated and freedomanded Philadelphia represent numerous 227 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:34,439 Speaker 1: individuals previously sentenced to life for crimes committed as juveniles 228 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:38,439 Speaker 1: and resentencing hearings, and received the American Bar Association's twenty 229 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 1: twenty one Exceptional Service Award for Death Penalty Representation for their. 230 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 2: Work on five death penalty cases. 231 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,319 Speaker 1: GT is reimagining what big law can be because of 232 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: a more just world. 233 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 2: Only happens by design. 234 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: So even though Cheryl was trying to be helpful, she 235 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: made things worse. But that wasn't the only thing inflaming 236 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: the suspicions of the detectives and CPS agents. Of course, 237 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: I'm referring to what they were hearing from the pediatric 238 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,319 Speaker 1: norosurgeon at Children's Hospital in Detroit, who was now examining 239 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: Brendan doctor Gilmer Hill. 240 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 3: Who sees the swollen brain of the rtal hemorrhages and 241 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 3: a subteral humanitoma. And she's been taught in medical school 242 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 3: that you see those things. There's no other explanation for 243 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 3: it other than some really far out there things like 244 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 3: an unrestrained high speed crash or being dropped out of 245 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 3: a third story window. 246 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: Right short falls had not yet made it to the 247 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: list of potential causes of the findings previously reflexively associated 248 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: with the farce known as shaken baby syndrome. But since 249 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: that time, we've learned that that triad of findings can 250 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: be caused by a growing list of Currently, they might 251 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: have had eighty one non traumatic medical conditions in addition 252 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,959 Speaker 1: to short falls, and unfortunately, in two thousand and four 253 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: these causes were just beginning to be discovered. And since 254 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: it's become abundantly clear that in the absence of a 255 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: spinal injury, shaking cannot provide sufficient. 256 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 2: Force to cause this tria. 257 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: Out of findings, it just can't be done. That's how 258 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: wrong the medical establishment had it. So with that, you 259 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: might not be surprised to hear that doctor Gilmour Hill, 260 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: in examining Brendan and his cat scan for head trauma 261 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,439 Speaker 1: being the hammer looking for the nail, they completely missed 262 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: the mark on his forehead. She reported no external bruising, 263 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: scalp swelling, or other signs of trauma. That's in her report. 264 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: Yet Cheryl her family all folks who had no reason 265 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 1: to protect Terry. They're obviously going to be taking the 266 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: side of the baby. But they all noticed the mark 267 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: on Brendan's forehead that was about the size of a 268 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,959 Speaker 1: fifty cent piece that would corroborate his version of events. 269 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 3: They saw it at Port Heeron, and they saw it 270 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 3: in Children's Hospital, and there was a nurse at Port 271 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 3: Heroon who had seen the mark on the forehead, but 272 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:52,959 Speaker 3: mysteriously doctor gilmour Hill didn't. If there's an impact, you 273 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:54,599 Speaker 3: would expect there to be some kind of mark or 274 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,439 Speaker 3: some kind of bruise or an abrasion. If it's shaking 275 00:13:57,520 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 3: and then slamming on a saft surface, you wouldn't necessarily 276 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 3: expect to see any marks. And so at trial then 277 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 3: the prosecutions argument is that you see, there's no marks 278 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 3: in this baby. This baby didn't fall, this baby was shaken. 279 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 4: They contact me, told me that I had a warrant 280 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 4: for my rest, So I went, turned myself in, bonded 281 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:15,839 Speaker 4: myself out, you know, I was right back to Dad's 282 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 4: at home, Dad's working, you know. 283 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: And this arrest was inexplicably delayed until January two thousand 284 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: and five. Brendan had made a full recovery by then. 285 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: Now neither Cheryl nor her family were pressing charges, so 286 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: perhaps they had to wait until Brendan's father would. Either way, 287 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: the state seemed hell bent on taking this to trial. 288 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: And I understand that your mother retained an attorney who 289 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: she knew from her mail carrier, which was a guy 290 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: named Ken Lord. 291 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 4: My mom retained him for me. He told me it 292 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 4: was going to be ten to twenty thousand dollars for 293 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 4: me to retain this doctor to come speak in my behalf. 294 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 4: And like I said, I'm a single father with a 295 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 4: thirteen year old kid at the time. I'm living check 296 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 4: to check. I don't have a couple grand in my 297 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 4: bank account. I'm not living like that. 298 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. 299 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 3: So, ken Lord's mistake here, which which we eventually many 300 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 3: years later confirmed with the Michigan Supreme Court, was believing 301 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 3: that he couldn't ask for money to help hire an 302 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 3: expert if his client was retained as opposed to being appointed. 303 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 3: That's just constitutionally wrong. The US Supreme Court had established 304 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 3: a decade and a half earlier that there is a 305 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 3: constitutional right to have an expert if an expert is 306 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 3: needed for the case, and kin Lord had already consulted 307 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 3: with a renowned expert, doctor Ferris Bandak. 308 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: Doctor Ferris Bandak, a renowned figure in the field of 309 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: biomechanics who testified in the very high profile Michael Peterson case. 310 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 3: Who was prepared to give very helpful testimony explaining the 311 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 3: problems with the shaken baby syndrome hypothesis, explaining why this 312 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 3: case wouldn't fit within it, and because Terry's mom had 313 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 3: retained Ken Lord, she was tapped out. She didn't have 314 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 3: the money to hire an expensive expert. 315 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: So you went to trial in December of two thousand 316 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: and five, and the trial was overseen by Judge of 317 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: Dare And of course the state was leaning heavily on 318 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: the testimony of doctor Gilmer Hill, the neurosurgeon who had 319 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: seen Brendan had Children's Hospital in Detroit. 320 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 5: I'm Kate Judson, the executive director of the Center for 321 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 5: Integrity and Forensic Sciences. In the case of Terry Caesar, 322 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 5: there were conflicting reports about whether sixteen month old Brendan 323 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 5: had any external injuries. The external injuries that were reported 324 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 5: could account for a potential impact site on his head 325 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 5: with either the coffee table, the floor, or both. A 326 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 5: CT scan showed subdural hematoma, and upon further investigation by 327 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 5: the state's star witness, pediatric neurosurgeon doctor Gilmour Hill, she 328 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 5: also noted brain swelling and retinal hemorrhage, the triad of 329 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 5: findings often associated with the faulty hypothesis of SPS. She 330 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 5: reported no external injuries and importantly, the absence of any 331 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 5: fractures or neck injury. She concluded that Brendan's injuries were 332 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 5: the result of violent shaking and could only otherwise be 333 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 5: caused by a fall from a second story window or 334 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 5: a high velocity car crash, and not by the shortfall 335 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 5: Terry had described. Now Terry's attorney had consulted with an expert, 336 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 5: doctor Bandeck, who put a background at engineering, he would 337 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 5: have testified to a current understanding of injury kinematics that 338 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 5: a short fall could cause injuries just like Brendan's. Terry's 339 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 5: attorney also raised the work of doctor Gettis and doctor Plunkett, 340 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 5: as well as doctor Gregory Riber, who had testified for 341 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 5: the state against Zavion Johnson just three years prior. At 342 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 5: Zavian's trial, he said that a shortfall with an impact 343 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,640 Speaker 5: could not cause the triad, but now he had learned 344 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,160 Speaker 5: that the opposite was true. Had any of them taken 345 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 5: the stand, they would have been able to impeach doctor 346 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 5: Gilmour Hill. 347 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 3: It's really hard to believe that you wouldn't have gotten 348 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 3: an acquittal if the Jerry heard from a very well credentialed, 349 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 3: renowned expert who had studied shaking baby syndrome, like doctor 350 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 3: Bandack had so. 351 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: As a result of not asking the court to obtain 352 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: funds to help Terry, ken Lord ended up cross examining 353 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: doctor Gilmer Hill himself based on his notes from consulting 354 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: with doctor Bandak. But I think we all know that 355 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 1: cross examination of an expert witness doesn't pack the same 356 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: punch with the jury as having your own. 357 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 3: Expert, Because who's the jerry going to believe the doctor 358 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 3: who insists that there's really no other explanation for these injuries, 359 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 3: or the lawyer who's not a scientist, not a doctor, 360 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 3: who tries to poke holes in that theory. And so 361 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 3: unless the expert is exceptionally bad, cross examination will very 362 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 3: rarely poke enough holes in an expert's certainty to cause 363 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 3: the jury to have reasonable doubt. 364 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: So the state had this in the bag, but presented 365 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 1: the child's mother, Cheryl as well, with the assumption that 366 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: raising the specter of her lie in the emergency room 367 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: would seal the deal. 368 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:35,399 Speaker 3: Cheryl did testify for the prosecution, but her testimony was 369 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 3: actually very helpful to Terry, explaining that she trusted Terry. 370 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 3: She explained the way the lie about whether she was 371 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 3: there or not confirmed that it was her lie, not Terry's. 372 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 1: And she also testified that Brendan had had a fall 373 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: at daycare a few days before. As you told us earlier, Terry, 374 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 1: we now know that a child could experience a lucid 375 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: interval for a few days before coming to the results 376 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 1: of an initial trauma. For years, medical expert was testified 377 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,360 Speaker 1: that the most recent caregiver must be the culprit, when 378 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 1: that was not true either. And Terry, I understand you 379 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: took the stand as well. 380 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 4: I told him, but I didn't hurt Brendan. You know, 381 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 4: I've never even corrected him, and he wasn't a bad 382 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 4: kid that needed corrections. Honestly, he was a good kid. 383 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: And there were no character witnesses allowed to understand, which 384 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: would have gone a long way towards backing you up 385 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 1: on all of that. 386 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 4: I had over half the courtroom full, my mother, father, aunts, uncles, 387 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 4: my son, my son's mother, employers, friends of family. I 388 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 4: had a ton of people there, and Judge Dare didn't 389 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 4: allow anybody to speak on my behalf. So it's like, 390 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:42,679 Speaker 4: how can I even feel that I had a fair trial. 391 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 3: This case, even without anybody for the defense, was a 392 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 3: extremely difficult case for the jury to result it took 393 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 3: them days and they were deadlocked. 394 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 1: Right and this, by the way, is right before Christmas, 395 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: when these people could have really, probably very badly wanted 396 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: to be spending their time with their families getting ready 397 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: for the holidays. So who knows how that played into 398 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: how they eventually came around to side with doctor Gilmer. 399 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 4: Hill, and so they come up with their unanimous guilty. 400 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 4: I'm devastated. So now I get to spend Christmas and 401 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 4: New Year's with my family and my son, and then 402 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 4: I know that after New Year's I'm going to prison 403 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:41,479 Speaker 4: for a crime that never even happened. The hardest part 404 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 4: was taking my son to school the day of sentencing, 405 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 4: dropping him off and telling him hopefully I'll be here, 406 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 4: you know, after you get out of school. If not, 407 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 4: then your mom will be here, And then go in 408 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 4: there and finding out that my sentence is two to 409 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 4: fifteen years, and then you have a son who's on 410 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,439 Speaker 4: the outside that you know you can only get fifteen 411 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:09,360 Speaker 4: minute phone calls, you know, and to hear the problems 412 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:11,360 Speaker 4: that he's had, and knowing that he wouldn't be having 413 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 4: these problems if I was there where I should be, 414 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 4: you know, But I was focused on getting me home 415 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 4: and proving my innocence. I wanted to get back to 416 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 4: my son. 417 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: Tragically, you were stolen from him, let's call it what 418 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 1: it is, during his prime formative years. Now, by two 419 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: thousand and seven, you had been studying the law and 420 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: working on your appeals process. You petitioned the Michigan Court 421 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: of Appeals with an ineffective assistance of Council claim based 422 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: on ken Lord's misunderstanding that the court would not provide 423 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:43,159 Speaker 1: an expert because you had retained ken Lord. So almost 424 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: like they thought, if you had the money for that, 425 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,199 Speaker 1: you should have the money for this, And that eventually 426 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: became the basis of the filings that they prepared with 427 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: the Michigan Innocence Clinic. But at that time it failed. Dave, 428 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: do you have any theories as to why that petition 429 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 1: didn't work out? 430 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 3: So in order to prove ineffective assistance, you have to 431 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,159 Speaker 3: prove that had the lawyer and not made the mistake, 432 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 3: there's a reasonable probability there would have been a different outcome. 433 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 3: And normally what you would do is you would attach 434 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 3: affidavits from experts. You would call at this hearing and 435 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 3: say send it back and have this evidentiary hearing in 436 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 3: the trial court and will show that had defensive lawyer 437 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 3: asked for an expert, he could have got a good 438 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 3: expert that would have changed his case, and a Pelt 439 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 3: lawyer just didn't do that. 440 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 1: So, not only had your trial attorney failed you, but 441 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: then Appellet Council had as well. Terry, I understand at 442 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,439 Speaker 1: this point you took an even more active role in 443 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: developing your own appeals. 444 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 4: I was at the law library every day to learn 445 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 4: how I could prove my innocence. A real good friend 446 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 4: that I met while I was incarcerated, Demetrius Wells, showed 447 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,120 Speaker 4: me more stuff as far as the legal process and 448 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 4: how to prepare legal briefs. 449 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: Meanwhile, you were seeking parole as well, but the board 450 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 1: wanted what you couldn't give them. 451 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 4: They wanted an admission of guilt, you know. And that's 452 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 4: the thing is, I'm not given an admission of guilt 453 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 4: for something that I didn't do. I told them that 454 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 4: I've done everything that they wanted to do. I never 455 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 4: caught a ticket while I was incarcerated. 456 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: Nonetheless, you were denied your first time around. 457 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 4: They gave me an eighteenth month continuance because I didn't 458 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 4: take an AOP class, which is an assault of offenders program. 459 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 4: It was a stipulation for me to be parolled. So 460 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 4: you have to pass this interview to even get into 461 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 4: the program. You know, I'm telling them everything that happened, 462 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 4: and I'm telling him the whole story, and it's like, 463 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 4: you know, he's as well. It sounds to me like 464 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 4: you're in denial and you don't want to admit. You know, 465 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,439 Speaker 4: how am I supposed to admit something that I didn't do? 466 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 4: So I had to file a grievance in order for 467 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 4: me to even get into this AOP class. I knew 468 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 4: that if I didn't do this class, I'm not going home. 469 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 4: They're just going to keep flopping me and flopping me 470 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 4: and flop me till I do my fifteen years. 471 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: So you did that program, but no matter what, the 472 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: goal was obviously exoneration because you were innocent. In fact, 473 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: you're innocent of a crime that never even happened. So 474 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: you had file the federal habeas in two thousand and 475 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: eight pro se while reaching out to innocence organizations all 476 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: over the country. But at that time you weren't getting 477 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: any help, as so many projects in clinics were really 478 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: focused on wins that they could almost call predictable that 479 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: could be earned with DNA cases, and Dave, as an 480 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 1: appellate public defender, you had seen the need for a 481 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: different kind of innocence organization. So you connected with someone 482 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 1: who had served as a public defender and eventually went 483 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: on to be the Chief Justice of the Michigan Supreme Court, 484 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 1: but at this point she was the dean for clinics 485 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: at Michigan Law and of course I'm talking about Bridget McCormick. 486 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 3: And we decided, with her public defender background as a 487 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 3: trial lawyer and my public defender background as an appellate lawyer, 488 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 3: we'd make a pretty good team, and so we co 489 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 3: founded the Michigan Innocence Clinic as a non DNA innocence project, 490 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 3: which officially opened into its doors in January two thousand 491 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 3: and nine, just about the time Terry was finishing up 492 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 3: his sentence. He was still incarcerated at that point, and 493 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,919 Speaker 3: so Terry was one of the first wave of people 494 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 3: to write us, and his was one of the very 495 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:53,640 Speaker 3: first set of cases that we took. 496 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 4: It was like, you know, here's your sign, this is 497 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:58,959 Speaker 4: what you've been waiting for all this work and everything 498 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 4: that you've done. I finally have somebody that I can 499 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 4: give this to, that can you know, finish this relay 500 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 4: for me because I can't run this race no more. 501 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 4: There's no more that I can do. 502 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 1: And by then you finally had a Barol day coming 503 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,679 Speaker 1: up October sixth, two thousand and nine, so you were. 504 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 2: Headed out the door. 505 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 1: What was that day like for you? Terry? 506 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,919 Speaker 4: It went from hell to trying to learn how to 507 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 4: live again. To be able to go to the bathroom 508 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,679 Speaker 4: when I needed to go to the bathroom was a 509 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 4: wonderful thing. It's the simple things to ply toilet paper. 510 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 4: Some hindes ketch up everything that we take for granted 511 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 4: every day. Was the stuff that I think that I 512 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,919 Speaker 4: missed the most, you know, a late gas bill, you 513 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 4: know what I mean, the stuff that I sweated before. 514 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 4: I'm like, I look at now and I'm like, you know, 515 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 4: I mean this shit. Really this stressed me out before, 516 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:44,159 Speaker 4: and I like laugh at that. 517 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 1: And to finally get to be with your son again 518 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: after five long years. 519 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 2: It was. 520 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 4: It was awesome. In prison, you get like a hug 521 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 4: when you see them in a hug when they leave. 522 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 4: So to be able to see him and honestly be 523 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 4: able to talk to him without just come effort was awesome. 524 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 1: But let's not forget you were still on parole, which, 525 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,719 Speaker 1: as we here described over and over again, even though 526 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 1: you're technically free, it's almost like just being in a 527 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: bigger prison by parole. 528 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 4: I legally couldn't see Cody because I was not allowed 529 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 4: to have contact with anybody under the age of eighteen, 530 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 4: So I had to get special permission from my parole 531 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 4: agent for me to even be able to see my son. 532 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 4: And then the worst part about it was is my 533 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,239 Speaker 4: first year of parole, my granddaughter was born and I 534 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 4: could not be around her or see her for the 535 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 4: first year of her life. I've had all these things 536 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 4: taken away from me for nothing, and. 537 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,360 Speaker 1: So clearing your name could not happen soon enough. Dave, 538 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,880 Speaker 1: as I understand it, you all went into court as 539 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: his trial and appellet counsel should have done guns blazing 540 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 1: with four expert witnesses, including doctor John Plunkett, the forensic 541 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: pathologists who we mentioned earlier from his pioneering challenges to SBS. 542 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 3: We knew that there was a big problem with these 543 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 3: shaking baby cases. We read the transcript of doctor gilmer 544 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 3: Hill's testimony and it was way out there in our view. 545 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,360 Speaker 1: So these four experts said that doctor gilmer Hill gave 546 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 1: the jury incorrect information regarding the biomechanics of infant head injury, 547 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,880 Speaker 1: short distance falls, and also abusive shaking. Each of them 548 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,159 Speaker 1: noted that criticisms of shaking baby syndrome existed at the 549 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 1: time of the trial or earlier, and that they would 550 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 1: have offered these same opinions if they had been asked 551 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 1: to testify back in two thousand and five. They also 552 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: said that injury biomechanics confirmed that when a child is 553 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,199 Speaker 1: manually shaken, he or she will suffer a neck injury 554 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: or gripping style chest injuries well before sustaining a subdural 555 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 1: hematoma or retinal hemorrhage, which is the understanding that undermines 556 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 1: nearly just about every single SBS prosecution, maybe all of them. 557 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: They concluded that Brendan's injuries were consistent with a short 558 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: fall from the couch onto the coffee table or the floor, 559 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: and totally inconsistent with abuse of shaking, but proving innocence 560 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: is not enough, so the ineffective assists and claims were 561 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 1: your main arguments, but Terry had already raised the claims 562 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:05,120 Speaker 1: against his trial attorney. 563 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 3: There was obvious error here, both by the trial lawyer 564 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 3: and the appellate lawyer. So we filed a post conviction 565 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 3: motion in Michigan for appellate lawyer's failure to properly litigate 566 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,640 Speaker 3: the trial lawyers in effectiveness. And so it goes back 567 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,719 Speaker 3: to the same judge in front of whom Terry had 568 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:24,880 Speaker 3: been convicted. 569 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: That would be Judge of Dare again. 570 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,120 Speaker 3: And that judge just does not get it at all. 571 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 3: That judge says, you can't raise this because this is 572 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 3: the same issue that Terry raised on appeal, ineffective assistance 573 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 3: of council, and we said no, Terry raised ineffective assistance 574 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 3: a trial council on appeal. We're now raising ineffective assistance 575 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 3: of appellate lawyer for failing to file the motion to 576 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 3: have an evidentiary hearing. 577 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: Right in which the appellate attorney could have presented experts 578 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: to support the challenges to SBS and Judge of Dare's 579 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: confusion over the fact that both trial and appellate counsel 580 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: had failed you, but only the claim against trial council 581 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: had been raised that kept justice from being done here 582 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: for over a decade, and so you appealed Darre's decision, 583 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: which involved a number of procedural hurdles that took the 584 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: better part of the next six years through both the 585 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: state and federal systems until you finally reach the sixth Circuit. 586 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 3: And we go to the sixth Circuit, and we had 587 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 3: a terrific student attorney, one of the law students worked 588 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 3: on the case, and she wiped the floor with the 589 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 3: Assistant Attorney General who was arguing against the petition. 590 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: And that terrific student attorney, by the way, it was 591 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: named Meredith Collier. 592 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 3: It was a legal mismatch it likes you seldom to see. 593 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 3: And so the end result of that, all of that 594 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 3: was we finally emerge in twenty seventeen with a ruling 595 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 3: from the federal court that Terry received ineffective assistance of 596 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 3: a pellet council. 597 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: So you get to file a new appeal, basically starting 598 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: back in the trial court. So Judge of Dar's court, 599 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: but he had retired at this point, and you got 600 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 1: to present Terry's original ineffective assistance claim about ken Lord 601 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: not asking the court to provide funds to the defense 602 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: for an expert witness. 603 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 3: And we end up in front of a successor judge 604 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 3: in Saint Clair County Port Huron, who now says, well, 605 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 3: you know, I'm just not so sure that Terry was 606 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 3: really poor, And so we end up having to hold 607 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 3: a whole evidentiary hearing to establish that Terry was too 608 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 3: poor to afford an expert. And what the judge ends 609 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 3: up finding is all right, well, Terry is poor. But 610 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 3: we lose because the judge says it was a reasonable 611 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 3: decision for ken Lord not to ask for money because 612 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 3: Judge Adair might have denied it. Wait what, yeah, the 613 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 3: successor judges, But it was that when I was a lawyer, 614 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 3: if I'd asked for that, Judge A. Dare probably would 615 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 3: have laughed me out of court. But that ruling would 616 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 3: be wrong. 617 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 1: Adare's alleged tendency to rule against providing the funds for 618 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: an expert would have been unconstitutional anyway. I mean, this 619 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: is obstinence that. 620 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 2: Defies all reason. 621 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: And we've covered Saint Clair County only one time before 622 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: running into this same kind of maddening logic defying issues. 623 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: And of course I'm talking about Temwajinkenzu, and we're going 624 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 1: to have that incredible episode linked in the bio. 625 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 4: This is the most corrupt county in Michigan. I don't 626 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 4: even know how to describe it. Besides it's a good 627 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 4: old boy. If you ate a good old boy, then 628 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 4: you ain't got nothing coming. I've been through more than 629 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 4: my fair share of courts in Saint Clair County. At 630 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 4: this courthouse here in Port you're on. This is the 631 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 4: only place that I've ever seen an attorney give their 632 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 4: client back their money and tell them if there's nothing 633 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 4: I can do for you here. These attorneys from other 634 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 4: cities come here and they get laughed right out of 635 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 4: the courtroom. Everybody's in cahoots with each other here. 636 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 1: So in order to receive justice, you had to get 637 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: out of Saint Clair County. 638 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 3: I argue the case in the Michigan Streme Court, and finally, 639 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 3: in March of twenty twenty one, the Michigan Supreme Court 640 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 3: issues a short order concluding that Terry gets a new trial. 641 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 3: And there was this case is so clear that it's 642 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 3: not even worth writing an opinion, and so the Michigan 643 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 3: Spreme Court rules in our favor. Terry's conviction is vacated, 644 00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 3: and then the prosecution in Saint Clair County then sat 645 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 3: around for months and months after March twenty twenty one, 646 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,479 Speaker 3: and finally dismissed the charges in September twenty twenty one. 647 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 3: So that's the point where Terry officially becomes exonerated. 648 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 4: I'm just I felt that I was blessed to discover 649 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 4: the University of Michigan Law School and this is clinic. 650 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 4: Without them, I don't know where I would be right now. 651 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,959 Speaker 1: So, after all you'd been through Terry, you'd think exoneration 652 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: would be the end of the road. Your life is 653 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,719 Speaker 1: seemingly back to normal, But as we've learned, there's almost 654 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: always a chance for another shoe to drop. 655 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 4: I have no felony on my record. I can have 656 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 4: a passport, I can go anywhere I want, I can 657 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 4: have firearms. But here in Michigan, there's a thing called 658 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 4: the Michigan Central Registry, and it doesn't matter if there 659 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 4: was a crime or not. If somebody feels that you 660 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 4: did something, then they'll put you on this registry. 661 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: That's the registry maintained by Children's Protective Services. Are people 662 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 1: who have either been convicted, suspected or whose names were 663 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: even breathed in the general direction of child abuse, neglect, 664 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 1: sexual exploitation, and so on. And so when the folks 665 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: at Michigan Law tried to get your name removed rightfully, 666 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 1: so there was some unexpected confusion. 667 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 4: So when they contact the Central Registry, they say, well, 668 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 4: which one are you trying to get removed? Because there's 669 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 4: more than one. So you have them reaches out to 670 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 4: me and they're like, you know, do you have any 671 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 4: idea of something happening back in ninety five? And I'm 672 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 4: like no, They're saying something about your child, and I goes, 673 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 4: I don't have a child. That says my only child 674 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:32,959 Speaker 4: is Cody. That's the only child I've ever had, and 675 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 4: I had custody of my child. So I'm kind of 676 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 4: confused here. 677 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: And this is the situation that we briefly discussed earlier 678 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: with the woman back in nineteen ninety five who claimed 679 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: you were the father when her child was rushed to 680 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: the hospital. So even with your exoneration, you of m 681 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: was still having difficulty removing you from this list and 682 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 1: undoing the damage. 683 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 4: I'm still battling this. They told my son he can't 684 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 4: leave my twelve year old grandson with me unless there's 685 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 4: another adult here or he can get in trouble for that. 686 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 4: I just want my life back, you know. I just 687 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 4: want to enjoy my time with my grandkids, right. 688 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,399 Speaker 1: And that's the real crime here that a guy who 689 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: literally did nothing wrong, was a loving dad, still after 690 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 1: all these years, is not allowed to babysit his own grandchildren. 691 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: But I know there are great people at U of 692 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: M who are working on getting you off that list, 693 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: and in fact, we're going to have a link in 694 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:25,720 Speaker 1: the bio for anyone who wants to support their incredibly 695 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: important work. So, Terry, anything you want to tell our audience. 696 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,840 Speaker 4: Please everybody turn your ears on for this one. CPS 697 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 4: cannot come in your house unless they're there with a 698 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 4: police and a warrant. You do not have to talk 699 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 4: to CPS. You do not have to let them in 700 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 4: your house. There is nothing they can do to you. 701 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 4: They have to come there with police and a warrant. 702 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 4: They cannot just come into your house. They can't. They 703 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:51,319 Speaker 4: can't just take your kids from you. 704 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,280 Speaker 1: Well, unfortunately, you've learned all of this the hard way, Terry, 705 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: but we're so glad that you've made it through. Now 706 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: it's time for closing arguments, where I thank you both 707 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:02,839 Speaker 1: for sharing this story, and now I'm just gonna turn 708 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,760 Speaker 1: my microphone off, kick back in my chair, and listen 709 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:11,760 Speaker 1: to whatever else you two amazing humans want to say. So, Dave, 710 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 1: why don't you kick it off and then hand it 711 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: over to Terry. 712 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,479 Speaker 3: I'm really glad we achieved justice for Terry. I'm really 713 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,759 Speaker 3: sorry how long it took that he had to be 714 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 3: patient for more than twelve years of us fighting this 715 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 3: thing up and down the courts. It's a great example 716 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,839 Speaker 3: of how resistant the courts are to doing justice in 717 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,400 Speaker 3: these cases. People are still in prison based on bogus 718 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 3: shaking baby syndrome testimony, and it's our goal to find 719 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,280 Speaker 3: as many of them as we can and win them, because, 720 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 3: as Terry's case shows, these diagnoses that are made without 721 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 3: sound science and made with far far too much certainty 722 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:54,320 Speaker 3: wreck people's lives. 723 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 6: Terry's experience was awful, but there are people who are 724 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,279 Speaker 6: serving life sentences because the baby died, and we need 725 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 6: to root out as many of these cases as we can. 726 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 6: We need to really stop this kind of testimony from 727 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 6: being given in the first place. 728 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 4: My closing arguments would be love your family, love your 729 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 4: loved ones. If there's people that you are not talking 730 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 4: to because of different circumstances, I think you need to 731 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 4: try to right those wrongs. And I think it's time 732 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 4: for people to start mending bridges. It feels like this 733 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 4: whole COVID thing is, you know, it's been like a 734 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 4: bomb that blew us all apart, and it's these pieces 735 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 4: are just floating all around and everybody's everybody's all about 736 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 4: themselves anymore. I remember when I was a kid growing 737 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 4: up when there was times like this. This is when 738 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 4: families pulled together, you know, when they were there for 739 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 4: one another. I think that we just need to love 740 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 4: our kids and teach our kids, you know, so they 741 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 4: don't do our wrongs and make mistakes that you know 742 00:36:54,080 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 4: that we've occurred in our life. 743 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I want to 744 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor hall Any, Chelsea La Robinson, 745 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,240 Speaker 1: Jeff Clyburn and Kevin Warns. 746 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 2: The music in this. 747 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 1: Production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. 748 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,720 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, 749 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,879 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at 750 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 1: Wrong Conviction as well as at Lava for Good. 751 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:28,399 Speaker 2: On all three platforms. 752 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 1: You can also follow me on both TikTok and Instagram 753 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 1: at it's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production of 754 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,759 Speaker 1: Lava for Good podcasts and association with Signal Company Number 755 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:38,960 Speaker 1: one