Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, Welcome to another episode of The Mark Moss
Speaker 1: Show where we talk about bitcoin, cryptocurrencies, and the decentralized revolution. Today,
Speaker 1: I am bringing you a very special guest, maybe one
Speaker 1: of the definitely one of the bigger names, and I
Speaker 1: don't know about the biggest name, but one of the
Speaker 1: bigger names in the bitcoin space. Uh. He's a good friend,
Speaker 1: someone I hang out with quite a bit. I'm proud
Speaker 1: to call him a friend, UM, and he is one
Speaker 1: of the best thinkers in the space. During the Bitcoin Conference,
Speaker 1: he had a special event where he sat down with
Speaker 1: one of the biggest thinkers in the world. Today, I'm
Speaker 1: talking about Jordan Peterson, and I'm also talking about Robert
Speaker 1: breed Love. So I'm sitting down with Robert breed Love.
Speaker 1: He gotta sit down with Jordan Peterson and man, the
Speaker 1: conversation was unbelievable, and I'm having him on the show
Speaker 1: to talk to you today about what money is and
Speaker 1: so much more. Let's go ahead and jump in um
Speaker 1: with Robert right now. Hi, Robert, thanks for joining me
Speaker 1: again today. Or is a pleasure sitting down with you.
Speaker 1: I've been looking forward to it, um, Mark has not
Speaker 1: been that long, so nice to see you again for
Speaker 1: what's been a week. Well it's been a while since
Speaker 1: I've had you on the channel. But yeah, we got
Speaker 1: to hang out quite a bit last week, which was
Speaker 1: which was awesome. I was loft hanging out with you. Um,
Speaker 1: so we were hanging out at Bitcoin two thousand twenty two. UM,
Speaker 1: let's talk about that just for a minute. What did
Speaker 1: you think about the conference? Just I guess from a
Speaker 1: high level, Well, this year was definitely a lot bigger.
Speaker 1: Let's take away. UM, I think it was really well done.
Speaker 1: I like to layout inside the convention center. Um, it
Speaker 1: was a bit confusing, I think at the beginning, just
Speaker 1: trying to get the lay of the land. Yeah, once
Speaker 1: you knew everything was it was a nice flow. Um.
Speaker 1: The experienced me was very similar to last year. Actually,
Speaker 1: like almost everywhere I went, I'm just getting mobbed with love.
Speaker 1: You know, people are like thank you for whatever the
Speaker 1: Sailor series or this thing you wrote or you know,
Speaker 1: this interview of yours. What I saw, I was overwhelmed
Speaker 1: because I thought back at Bitcoin twenty twenty one, that
Speaker 1: was kind of an anomaly year. You know, Bitcoin was
Speaker 1: way up, you know, the show was new, and that
Speaker 1: was my experience at Bitcoin people mobbing me with love, like,
Speaker 1: oh surely bitcoin, this one will be more calm now,
Speaker 1: calmed down, chilled out because bitcoin price isn't moving as much.
Speaker 1: I've been putting out a lot of work, but you
Speaker 1: just don't. You and I have talked about this. You
Speaker 1: put out a lot of work sort of in isolation,
Speaker 1: and you don't really see the impact on people's lives,
Speaker 1: but you see it through social media a little bit,
Speaker 1: but to see it in person, it's a whole different ballgame. Um,
Speaker 1: I think the vibe was tremendous. I mean, I'm more
Speaker 1: bullish on the bitcoin community than ever. People are just
Speaker 1: this this transformation that occurs personally, psychologically, financially. You know,
Speaker 1: it really seems to be like rippling through everyone and
Speaker 1: hopefully changing lives. It was better, So it was it
Speaker 1: was really nice to see that phenomenon up closing personal again. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I also think about, um, you know, when you're investing adventure,
Speaker 1: and I know you had your fund going for a while,
Speaker 1: so like you know, when you're investing adventure, Um, typically
Speaker 1: those are you know, six seven, ten years before you
Speaker 1: see those types of deals come to fruition, and so
Speaker 1: like how do you track that and like you tracked
Speaker 1: the user growth and you can track the development on
Speaker 1: the network. I think about those two metrics, and so
Speaker 1: if you look at the growth the trajectory of the
Speaker 1: audience growth, right, So from fiftudred people one was I
Speaker 1: don't know, ten thousand people in this year was like
Speaker 1: thirty thousand people, right, yeah, yeah, were you at nineteen
Speaker 1: yea in San Francisco? That was like it was small
Speaker 1: people maybe, and then they I guess ten extra one
Speaker 1: or we last two years so was off because of
Speaker 1: the COVID Yeah, and so yeah, I think it was
Speaker 1: thirteen or fourteen thousand people last year and then this
Speaker 1: year was what thirty five thousand? Yeah. Um, They've built
Speaker 1: a hell of a build this. You know, it's kind
Speaker 1: of centered on that one giant event per year, and
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed it. I am sort of regretful, Like
Speaker 1: I missed the last day of the conference because I
Speaker 1: had the Peterson event that night. I started to lose
Speaker 1: my voice in the morning, so I was really worried
Speaker 1: about going to the conference and not being able to
Speaker 1: speak during the interview. Ended up skipping that last day
Speaker 1: and just resting my voice and then the day after
Speaker 1: they had the comed Comedians and Music Festival, which I
Speaker 1: actually wanted to attend, but um, you know, we're doing
Speaker 1: other events and all that that day. So just we're
Speaker 1: hanging out of Michael Peter's IM sorry, we're hanging out
Speaker 1: into Michael Saylor's house, having and that was a really
Speaker 1: good time. That was a highlight for me to you
Speaker 1: just to get together with you know, so many people
Speaker 1: that we were close with and just had a little huddle.
Speaker 1: It was. It was a lot of fun. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: And then I mean talking about you know, Michael Sailor,
Speaker 1: just like that, the high level of people that are
Speaker 1: at those events, so like again from it was pretty
Speaker 1: like hardcore bitcoiners um and this year we had billionaires
Speaker 1: obviously Michael Sailor, senators there, Cynthia Loomis, and then I
Speaker 1: mean Jordan Peterson. I mean, there's probably nobody bigger in
Speaker 1: the thought leader space today than that guy, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I certainly think so it's pretty clear my
Speaker 1: my perspective on Peterson, He's definitely the greatest impact on
Speaker 1: my thinking for a living person. You know, maybe Mesas
Speaker 1: and some of these other guys are are up there
Speaker 1: as wealth in terms of people that are past. But UM,
Speaker 1: it was an honor, you know, it was an honor
Speaker 1: to put this event together. I really enjoyed our conversation.
Speaker 1: Um he I appreciate his skepticism and his thoughtfulness, you know,
Speaker 1: just drinking the kool aid. You know, he's really trying
Speaker 1: to look come at it from multiple angles and and
Speaker 1: take the argument or you know, the bitcoin thesis apart.
Speaker 1: And that's ultimately what makes it so valuable is trying
Speaker 1: to do Um. He's an extremely fast thinker, fast talker.
Speaker 1: You know, he's got a lot of intellectual horsepower. Yeah,
Speaker 1: up with even But I thought his fireside chat with
Speaker 1: Terror was great. That was more, I guess, a bit
Speaker 1: more surface level in terms of his thinking about macroeconomics
Speaker 1: and bitcoin. And then that night, UM, which was our
Speaker 1: first in person for first live event, first interview I've
Speaker 1: done in front of a live studio audience. We had
Speaker 1: when you were there in the front row and we
Speaker 1: had seven people there, I think, Wow, isn't that many? Dang? Yeah? Deep,
Speaker 1: you know, I tried to I tried to skip the
Speaker 1: surface level discussion. It was go straight to the bottom
Speaker 1: of the rabbit hole. And you know, he's so fascinating.
Speaker 1: You can talk about anything and you can tie it
Speaker 1: back to really these different psychological dimensions and you know,
Speaker 1: human development. We talked a lot about game theory and
Speaker 1: how humans sort of bootstrap morality through play and nature
Speaker 1: of voluntary versus involuntary games, and we're tying all these
Speaker 1: things back to money and bitcoin. You know. That's my
Speaker 1: littles to us for an interview is I just try
Speaker 1: to I really I'm trying to learn. I call it
Speaker 1: learning out loud. So I want to have conversations that
Speaker 1: are interesting to me, that are pushing my own understanding
Speaker 1: where I'm at the edge of my understanding, and hopefully
Speaker 1: my guest is as well. And we're producing something novel
Speaker 1: and useful in that in that dialogue, and I think
Speaker 1: we did it. You know, the feedback from the live
Speaker 1: event was was wonderful. Um, we're working on releasing the
Speaker 1: video now in the next few days. We're just running
Speaker 1: it through the edit flow and making sure it's tight
Speaker 1: and so we'll see what the world thinks. I thought
Speaker 1: it was amazing the amount of work that you did
Speaker 1: in advance to like really put the questions in order
Speaker 1: and build you know, kind of from that from that
Speaker 1: first principle's level so highly anticipated for you to release that,
Speaker 1: I'll watch it again. Everybody else shout as well. But
Speaker 1: um so, if we look at the Bitcoin you know,
Speaker 1: like I said, if we look at the Bitcoin conference,
Speaker 1: the growth, the growth of the trajectory of the audience,
Speaker 1: the amount of people that have come there, like the
Speaker 1: mind share that's coming over the space, it's like pretty amazing.
Speaker 1: It's definitely one metric that I'm looking at. One of
Speaker 1: the things that I saw at the conference was I
Speaker 1: worked at news desk. I know you worked at as well.
Speaker 1: For a couple of days. I was. I was working
Speaker 1: on Industry Day, which was the first day, and there
Speaker 1: was a lot of people from the industry, and they're
Speaker 1: talking about, you know, we need regulations and we need clarity,
Speaker 1: and they kept saying, we need to push for mass adoption,
Speaker 1: push for mass adoption, push for match it up mass adoption.
Speaker 1: And I thought, uh, I was like, you know, my
Speaker 1: contrary and take is that we don't need to push
Speaker 1: for mass adoption. One like Alex Fetski says, the masses
Speaker 1: are always wrong. But I was just saying that Per
Speaker 1: two thou eighteen FED report of Americans don't even have
Speaker 1: four hundred dollars for an emergency. So I'm like, those
Speaker 1: people don't even need to worry about like bitcoin or crypto. Um,
Speaker 1: what's your thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean I'm sort
Speaker 1: of I guess I'm in alignment in a way that
Speaker 1: I've always thought of bitcoins adoption would progress according to
Speaker 1: the minority rule. And we you know, I've and some
Speaker 1: about this. This is a concept I picked up from
Speaker 1: teleb But just this idea that the preferences of an
Speaker 1: obstinate minority typically can influence the preferences of the whole,
Speaker 1: as long as the whole doesn't there's there's sort of
Speaker 1: indifferent to what. Most people don't care, like they want
Speaker 1: their money to just work, right, I want to wipe
Speaker 1: the card and put the thing in the account and
Speaker 1: know that it's there. Um. But if you developed this
Speaker 1: and Spetzky, it's a lot of these guys refer to
Speaker 1: the remnant, right, the the focused, intelligent minority that's just
Speaker 1: stacking SATs to all kingdom. Come it almost it almost
Speaker 1: starts to create this growth dynamic and Bitcoin where it's
Speaker 1: rules get imposed on others, like you have to to
Speaker 1: protect yourself from inflation, or to preserve wealth across time,
Speaker 1: or you know, any number of reasons. There's a million
Speaker 1: use cases for bitcoin that you end up having to
Speaker 1: use this neutral settlement layer. And I mean that's the
Speaker 1: path that I think it follows. Is bitcoin just continues
Speaker 1: to monetize. Um. There will always be the die hard stackers,
Speaker 1: and when they're just taking new supply off the market,
Speaker 1: bitcoins just got the you know, the cell press run.
Speaker 1: Bitcoin is going to be diminished more and more along
Speaker 1: with this new issue in ste to do to the having,
Speaker 1: which is going to drive price higher and higher and higher,
Speaker 1: and eventually that draws in the masses, right, the masses
Speaker 1: typically just chase the price. So I mean I'm focused
Speaker 1: on that. I think in my educational efforts to I
Speaker 1: call it, you know, raising an army of educators. And
Speaker 1: you see, you had this brilliant quote one time, the
Speaker 1: setting brush fires and the minds of men something like that.
Speaker 1: That captures it as well. It's like, let's just give
Speaker 1: people the fundamental view on money, on property, on government,
Speaker 1: on the nature of our socio economic systems of human cooperation,
Speaker 1: and then let them decide. I'm not here to prescribe
Speaker 1: the coin in one. I'm just trying to ask big
Speaker 1: questions and dig deep and hopefully find some some useful
Speaker 1: knowledge in the process. But I think it will ultimately
Speaker 1: be that that small cadre of people that will really
Speaker 1: just by holding such a secure footprint on the network
Speaker 1: and not accepting any inferior savings technology, not bending to
Speaker 1: any regulation or any threat um, that's what's gonna trigger
Speaker 1: this hyper bitcoinization type of event that we that we
Speaker 1: all look forward to. All Right, you're listening to the
Speaker 1: Mark mo Show. We're talking about bitcoin. We're talking about
Speaker 1: the decentralized revolution. I'm sitting down with Robert Breedlove from
Speaker 1: the What Is Money Show? Right now, don't go away,
Speaker 1: we have a lot more to go when we come back.
Speaker 1: All right, welcome back. You are listening to the Mark
Speaker 1: Moss Show. I'm in the studio today joined by Robert Breedlove.
Speaker 1: He's host of the What Is Money Podcast? You can
Speaker 1: find them on podcast or on YouTube. One of the
Speaker 1: greatest thinkers. Today we're talking about his conversation with Jordan
Speaker 1: Peterson at the Point conference and What is Money. Let's
Speaker 1: pick it back up here. Yeah, so your show What
Speaker 1: Is Money and then what is money? Show? W I
Speaker 1: am has been basically trying to answer that, like what
Speaker 1: is money? And yeah, the majority of people just have
Speaker 1: no idea what money is? And so then back to
Speaker 1: like needing to push for adoption. It's like those people
Speaker 1: don't even know they have a problem. Um, I say, Uh,
Speaker 1: in marketing, we'd say it's much easier to sell food
Speaker 1: to someone who's starving than to convince them of their
Speaker 1: starving first and then try to sell them food, right. Uh.
Speaker 1: In Venezuela where their currency is blown up, you don't
Speaker 1: have to convince them that they should get out of
Speaker 1: that currency and into something else, um, you know, or
Speaker 1: in Canada when they got kicked out of the banking
Speaker 1: system or their bank accounts are about to get seized,
Speaker 1: you don't have to convince them. Um. So a lot
Speaker 1: of it's just like bringing the attention to that. But
Speaker 1: you've focused on this what is money um, and a
Speaker 1: lot of people just don't know that. I guess if
Speaker 1: we dig into that, I know you've outlined a bunch
Speaker 1: like the certain attributes of money, UM, tell tell us
Speaker 1: what those are real quick? Yeah. So I think when
Speaker 1: you there's so many answers to this question. I literally
Speaker 1: have an ongoing blog series right now. I've answer to
Speaker 1: that question that both I've either discovered in reading or
Speaker 1: I've maybe sort of put together through my own thinking,
Speaker 1: or I've just been given by guests. You know, a
Speaker 1: lot of guests come on the show and they have
Speaker 1: some unique answer to it. Um. But it's really interesting,
Speaker 1: you know, and a lot of people. It seems like
Speaker 1: it's resonated with the audience too, because a lot of
Speaker 1: people didn't notice that it was such a fundamental question.
Speaker 1: But like now that you asked it, I've heard all
Speaker 1: these different answers, Like it's one of those really deep
Speaker 1: questions like what is truth or what is value? You know,
Speaker 1: it's something. Um, it's just a rabbit hole, I guess,
Speaker 1: and a nutshell. But for me, my original, the original
Speaker 1: drama is beating a lot was Okay, you want to
Speaker 1: understand bitcoin, the coins and novel innovation. It's new. It's
Speaker 1: very complicated. You could lead with the technical explanation of bitcoin,
Speaker 1: you know, like cryptography and distributed computing networks and game
Speaker 1: theory and all of this, but I think that for
Speaker 1: most people they just kind of have that glazed overlook
Speaker 1: when you take that approach. So my realization was, as
Speaker 1: you said, if you don't know what the problem is,
Speaker 1: then you can't really put bitcoin in the proper context.
Speaker 1: So I said, I tried to dispense with this technical
Speaker 1: explanation of bitcoin as a modern technology and really take
Speaker 1: the opposite tack entirely. Let's forget all that and just
Speaker 1: go to the very beginning, the first principles or whatever
Speaker 1: of human history and say, what is money? How did
Speaker 1: we get money? Um? We all know that gold became
Speaker 1: money historically. And I put people like Ray Dalio in
Speaker 1: this group, like, he gets money very deeply relative to
Speaker 1: most people, but when he looks at gold, his explanation
Speaker 1: for why gold became money is it has intrinsic value,
Speaker 1: and that's a failing in my opinion. There are specific
Speaker 1: properties that human beings demand and money, and I think that,
Speaker 1: for me is the bottom of that question. It's like
Speaker 1: just explaining the properties people want in the money. Um.
Speaker 1: And I've put it like this before. We often talk
Speaker 1: about goods and services, you know, distinguishing say the physical
Speaker 1: good a shovel, for instance, versus the service which is
Speaker 1: digging holes. But it's ultimately what we're all ultimately looking
Speaker 1: for services, even the good itself. We only demand that
Speaker 1: good because the services it renders to us, or the
Speaker 1: the it can accelerate us towards the achievement of our aim. Right,
Speaker 1: I can dig holes faster with a shovel than with
Speaker 1: my bare hands, So you start to think of it
Speaker 1: in those terms. Then it's all about services even money.
Speaker 1: So it's like, what services do people demand from money?
Speaker 1: Another way of saying that is what properties to people
Speaker 1: demand from money? And again this is a question if
Speaker 1: you ask guys like Edstrom. He wrote a book on
Speaker 1: this with fourteen properties of money. You will read the
Speaker 1: Austrians they have seven, they have ten. It just depends
Speaker 1: what you read. I tried to narrow it down as
Speaker 1: much as possible and I got it down to five.
Speaker 1: And this was influenced by an excellent book actually that's
Speaker 1: available free online titled Honest Money by Gary North. Gary
Speaker 1: North just passed away. He's like a Christian libertarian philosopher.
Speaker 1: It's a free pdf on mesas dot org. You can
Speaker 1: also buy an Amazon it. He narrowed it down to
Speaker 1: you um divisibility, durability, recognizability, portability, scarcity, and when I
Speaker 1: first got into this bitcoin media explanation of like, you know,
Speaker 1: talking about what is money and explaining explaining the money
Speaker 1: in a historical context. That was adequate to put bitcoin
Speaker 1: in and have bitcoin be understood. And I think that chain,
Speaker 1: that that explanatory chain was really successful actually because then
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, I get it. Gold was the most divisible, durable, recognizable, portable,
Speaker 1: scarest thing we had. That's why we demanded it as money.
Speaker 1: That's why it became money. You also understand what gold lacked, right,
Speaker 1: which was portability. Very hard to move gold across space,
Speaker 1: even though it holds value well across time, which explains
Speaker 1: why we abstracted gold into a paper currency. Right, we're
Speaker 1: in we're augmenting its transactibility across space, increasing its portability.
Speaker 1: But that introduced the problem, right, we now need to
Speaker 1: trust the guy that's warehousing the gold not to over
Speaker 1: issue the paper claims on gold. That was the ultimate
Speaker 1: honey pot for governments and central banks. Historically it's become
Speaker 1: the most corrupt institution in the world, as we've talked
Speaker 1: about that nauseum. And so it explains all that. Just
Speaker 1: look at the properties of money. And then finally, if
Speaker 1: you evaluate bitcoin through that lens of the properties of money.
Speaker 1: You see that it's the most perfect money we've ever had.
Speaker 1: All Right, I just want to let you know real quick.
Speaker 1: You are listening to the Mark Moa Show and in
Speaker 1: the studio with Robert Breedlove. He's the host of the
Speaker 1: What Is Money Show and podcast. Um, we have a
Speaker 1: lot more to discuss. I have a whole list of
Speaker 1: questions you do not want to miss. So don't go away.
Speaker 1: We are back. All right, welcome back. You are listening
Speaker 1: to the Mark Moss Show. I'm in the studio today,
Speaker 1: joined by Robert Breedlove. He's host of the What Is
Speaker 1: Money Podcast? You can find him on podcast or on YouTube.
Speaker 1: One of the greatest thinkers. Today we're talking about his
Speaker 1: conversation with Jordan Peterson at the Bitcoin conference and what
Speaker 1: is Money? Let's pick it back up here. So if
Speaker 1: we if we trust the money with the best reputation. Okay,
Speaker 1: that's one thing which I guess has been the dollar.
Speaker 1: I mean it was gold obviously, and then it's the dollar.
Speaker 1: But then think about this, so then, um, what is
Speaker 1: the dollar? Right? The dollar is really this is something
Speaker 1: I've been thinking about quite a bit. The dollar really
Speaker 1: is a payment network is what it is, right, It's
Speaker 1: the way, it's the easiest way, the best way, the
Speaker 1: best reputation to move money around the world. And so
Speaker 1: of course Russia, I didn't just get their dollars sees,
Speaker 1: they didn't even have that many dollars. They got their
Speaker 1: f X accounts because they had a bunch of different currencies,
Speaker 1: They got their f X reserve sees, and they got
Speaker 1: kicked out of the Swift system, the payment network. And
Speaker 1: so not only did they kill the dollar, which you
Speaker 1: had the best reputation, but also the payment network, which
Speaker 1: is actually a pretty big deal when you think about that. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: and you know, I would say, first and foremost, the
Speaker 1: dollar is a derivative of gold. That's the only reason
Speaker 1: we ever had a paper currency anywhere ever, was to
Speaker 1: facilitate the portability of precious metals, whether gold, whatever it was. Obviously,
Speaker 1: due to technological realities and or people's ignorance of the
Speaker 1: financial system and money, we got to nineteen seventy one
Speaker 1: right where we broke that peg permanently. We've never looked
Speaker 1: back um and shortly after that, right, because you know,
Speaker 1: to use a sailor aphorism, money as energy, right, it's
Speaker 1: economic energy, right. The dollar was pegged to the energy
Speaker 1: expenditure necessary to produce gold. That's what secured its supply.
Speaker 1: When we break that peg, you can't leave the dollar unpegged.
Speaker 1: So very quickly it was repegged black gold, the petro dollar.
Speaker 1: So that's now what the United States it's it's the
Speaker 1: point of leverage the United States uses to impose this. Uh.
Speaker 1: I think it's glad Seemed typically calls it the global
Speaker 1: dollar hedgeminy um, and it's you know, we forcibly denominate
Speaker 1: oil contracts and oil or in dollars rather etcetera, etcetera.
Speaker 1: That's also changing now, like as a result of the
Speaker 1: Russia thing, I think they're selling oil and rupees and
Speaker 1: other currencies. So that whole the unipolar world we had
Speaker 1: around the dollar, it's being ripped apart in real time. Um.
Speaker 1: And it's hard to say where that goes, but you know,
Speaker 1: you you bring up swift to Russia getting kicked off
Speaker 1: that Ultimately it's just a messaging system, right, You're just
Speaker 1: messaging amounts of money across this network. There's not any
Speaker 1: final settlement occurring in terms of like gold being transmitted, right, um,
Speaker 1: And so all again, all these things like it's just
Speaker 1: another big billboard for bitcoin. So you've got to kick
Speaker 1: us off the global trade network effectively by kicking us
Speaker 1: off the SWIL system. Is there an alternative messaging system
Speaker 1: we could use to conduct this international trade? All turns
Speaker 1: out there is yeah, And that's where I'm to turn off.
Speaker 1: That's where I'm going. I'm trying to use your technique
Speaker 1: to build this conversation. So if if the dollar was
Speaker 1: the money with the best reputation, but really it's the
Speaker 1: payment network. To your point, it's like a messaging network.
Speaker 1: What's the best reputation. But now we found out that
Speaker 1: well that you can all use the network if we
Speaker 1: say you can use the network, because it wasn't just
Speaker 1: dollars to my point about Russia, it was the network
Speaker 1: they got kicked off of. Now you mentioned Ray Dalio
Speaker 1: and his research is amazing. He's he's forgotten more than
Speaker 1: I'll ever know. I mean, his research is unbelievable. I
Speaker 1: just finished his book and I've done some videos on it,
Speaker 1: The Change World Order. I forget the title. Um, I
Speaker 1: just finished it and it's an amazing book. Everyone should
Speaker 1: read it. And then you mentioned the word multipolar I
Speaker 1: don't know if you've been reading some of the work
Speaker 1: of Zoltan Posar that he's been putting out recently. He's
Speaker 1: been talking about this breton Woods three UM and talking
Speaker 1: about how uh I don't know, have you heard about
Speaker 1: that Sulton Poston. It was recommended to me. I haven't
Speaker 1: read it yet. I mean the big level is that
Speaker 1: breton Woods obviously went to a gold standard that was
Speaker 1: still commodity money, right, so the world had been on
Speaker 1: commodity money. One broke the gold standard and we went
Speaker 1: to what he calls inside money, so basically bank treasuries.
Speaker 1: So no more commodity money. Now it's fiat money, and
Speaker 1: that we've been in that since nineteen seventy one. So
Speaker 1: he calls that breton Woods too. And now that agreement
Speaker 1: was broken, the payment network was shut down, uh February two,
Speaker 1: and now we're going back to breton Wood three, which
Speaker 1: is a commodity money again, so now everybody's hoarding natural resources,
Speaker 1: natural gas, oil, etcetera. UM. But one thing that um
Speaker 1: Daio and pose are both seemed to miss. And of course,
Speaker 1: you know, I've been talking about these three revolutionary cycles,
Speaker 1: so we have to look at this like political revolution cycle,
Speaker 1: which Dalyo Nails. I mean, his research is amazing and
Speaker 1: shows how we have the US is a declining superpower
Speaker 1: and China as a rising superpowerty Nails is down from
Speaker 1: like a political standpoint, and even uh he talks about
Speaker 1: these eighty year financial revolutions, these long term credit cycles.
Speaker 1: But what he misses and what pulls our misses is
Speaker 1: the technology revolution piece and so on about a fifty
Speaker 1: year time frame. We have a technological revolution, not a technology,
Speaker 1: but a revolution that changes the course of humanity. And
Speaker 1: and they didn't bring that in. And so we have
Speaker 1: this technology. And to to the point, if the payment
Speaker 1: network is broken, we have a new payment network. And
Speaker 1: here's something I've been thinking about. So UM in the
Speaker 1: United States, we had the telephone and all throughout the
Speaker 1: US we have telephone polls and telephone wires running everywhere, right,
Speaker 1: And that was put up about a hundred years ago.
Speaker 1: And the Internet UM scaled pretty quickly, the adoption scale
Speaker 1: pretty quickly because we had telephone lines. UM in the
Speaker 1: old days, you had someone at the switchboard and they
Speaker 1: would route that call right. And then we scaled pretty
Speaker 1: quickly because we had the telephone lines and it ran
Speaker 1: over that. Um. But today we have wireless phones, um,
Speaker 1: and so we don't really the internet scalpe pretty quickly.
Speaker 1: Then eventually they put fiber optics in the ground, they
Speaker 1: skipped the telephone lines, and now we just use wireless altogether. Um.
Speaker 1: But then we saw nations like Africa leap frog. They
Speaker 1: never had wired telephones, they just went straight to wireless.
Speaker 1: And so what is the telephone network, Well, it's an
Speaker 1: information network right through wires. And so if you think
Speaker 1: about the month the dollar being a payment network, that's
Speaker 1: the to the point, had the best reputation. It's now killed. Um.
Speaker 1: Could we see other nations just leap frog right past
Speaker 1: that payment network and just use a different payment network. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I think it's a brilliant way to break it down. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, to your point with Africa, it's like they
Speaker 1: had no technical debt or infrastructure debt in that leap frog.
Speaker 1: So it's a huge boon for them to skip this
Speaker 1: this wave of fixed capital deployment. Because if you deploy
Speaker 1: a bunch of whatever telephone poles, cellphone wires, and then
Speaker 1: ten years later you don't need them, well, that's a
Speaker 1: that's a huge outlay that was no longer benefiting you effectively.
Speaker 1: And so if you're a smaller up and coming developing nation,
Speaker 1: you can observe these technological trends playing out in the
Speaker 1: developed world, and you know, cherry pick what's best. You
Speaker 1: can skip the telephone polls and go straight to wireless.
Speaker 1: And typically those advancements almost by definition, are orders of
Speaker 1: magnitude more efficient, so that Aitian then becomes more competitive
Speaker 1: relative to the developmation with with the infrastructure or technical debt.
Speaker 1: And you know, I think that is a again great
Speaker 1: way to look at it. The other thing I would
Speaker 1: add there is this idea of dollar derivatives not being
Speaker 1: built on the bitcoin blockchain UM. Typically with a lot
Speaker 1: more yield you can hold whatever USDC. There's a million
Speaker 1: stable coins out there that offer some yield that you
Speaker 1: cannot get in the traditional banking system. So that's an
Speaker 1: added inducement for people to migrate from legacy banking infrastructure
Speaker 1: into something bitcoin or even crypto related. UM. That's something
Speaker 1: to watch for. UH. And this idea of neutral settlement
Speaker 1: network neutral settlement layer, you know what bitcoiners often call
Speaker 1: bitcoin money for enemies. That's very valuable, right. You want
Speaker 1: to be able to trade with everyone, but you want
Speaker 1: to be able to do it in a way that
Speaker 1: you don't have to trust anyone, and that's what bitcoin
Speaker 1: ultimately is that you get to trust the math, the
Speaker 1: self interests of market participants, um and thermodynamics effectively through
Speaker 1: its its supply, security, energy expenditure, and that gives it
Speaker 1: a very potent reputation as money. Right, It's like something
Speaker 1: no one can control. No political attack vector or organization
Speaker 1: can change the rules. That's a very big deal because
Speaker 1: it is effectively what was Russia doing. They were playing
Speaker 1: in a certain financial network and then the rules were
Speaker 1: changed on them, like oh, you're now ejected from the game,
Speaker 1: or you've lost your points, or whatever analogy you want
Speaker 1: to use here. Everyone has this demand to play the
Speaker 1: game of fixed rules. So Bitcoin, it's such a brilliant innovation.
Speaker 1: It's almost established a reputation so free of counterparty risk
Speaker 1: that it's more like the sun coming up right, you
Speaker 1: don't you know there's gonna be a block average with
Speaker 1: every ten minutes. That's all it does, and that there's
Speaker 1: literally the only thing it does, and holds a supply
Speaker 1: cap of twenty one million, and no one can change it.
Speaker 1: Like that's the whole value prop So I think the
Speaker 1: more conflict and tension we have individually, geo, politically, whatever layer,
Speaker 1: the more demand you're creating for that neutral settlement territory.
Speaker 1: And ultimately, you know, as you're pointing out, you know,
Speaker 1: Daly was brilliant. These guys have thought about it a lot,
Speaker 1: but they missed the technological piece. I guess that this
Speaker 1: is not on them. This is a human thing. We
Speaker 1: were really bad at prognosticating the future. You look at
Speaker 1: go back into the fifties or the seventies and look
Speaker 1: at you know, sci fi future films. We're blasting around
Speaker 1: rockets all over the universe space like, but no one
Speaker 1: had the handheld supercomputer. You know, we didn't know social media.
Speaker 1: There's predictions that have been closer. Like I talked about
Speaker 1: the sovereign individual a lot. They predicted some of these
Speaker 1: things in like nineties seven, so say, a couple of
Speaker 1: decades before they transpired. But looking into the deep future,
Speaker 1: I think it's much harder to tell where we're going.
Speaker 1: Um but looking and so that should give us all
Speaker 1: some pause and humility as looking at as guys that
Speaker 1: look into the future. But yeah, but before the norm,
Speaker 1: I would say here that seems to be I don't
Speaker 1: want to say irrefutable, but very common, is it? Societies
Speaker 1: tend to have hard money, all right, Hard money is
Speaker 1: the norm of human history. We're using gold for five
Speaker 1: thousand years, We've had this Fiat anomaly for just a
Speaker 1: few hundred, so it would seem to me like when
Speaker 1: trust is being lost, we're going to revert back to
Speaker 1: the mean and hard money. The difference in a guy
Speaker 1: like Dally on my own thinking is I just think
Speaker 1: bitcoin is disruptive to gold. I don't think. I think
Speaker 1: gold has failed basically, and so we need something new,
Speaker 1: and I can't see what that would be other than
Speaker 1: bitcoint I have a lot more to go over with
Speaker 1: Robert Breedlove here, so make sure you stick around as
Speaker 1: we dig more into this. I'll be right back, all right,
Speaker 1: welcome back. You are listening to the Mark Moa Show.
Speaker 1: I am joined in the studio with one of my buddies,
Speaker 1: Robert Breedlove, one of the best thinkers in the bitcoin space.
Speaker 1: One more topic to discuss that's a little bit different
Speaker 1: but maybe somewhat related is um elon musk and Twitter
Speaker 1: mm hm and um. The one thing that I see, Well,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of things that I see. There a
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of angles that we could take
Speaker 1: with that, but specific the angle that I'm thinking about
Speaker 1: is so if, um, if money is communication, the bitcoin
Speaker 1: network is a better network that communicates money or information better? Um,
Speaker 1: the Elon must take over of Twitter has had a
Speaker 1: lot of pushback. People are working on Twitter say they're
Speaker 1: going to quit, uh, you know, things like that. And
Speaker 1: one thing that's been kind of I've been thinking about
Speaker 1: is like man, he said that he wants to take
Speaker 1: it over to help have more free speech. He doesn't
Speaker 1: like the censorship. That seems to be his big gripe. Uh,
Speaker 1: there's too much censorship. I want to have more free speech.
Speaker 1: And so it seems like all these people that are
Speaker 1: pushing back on that are saying we don't want free
Speaker 1: speech and if money is speech right or communication And
Speaker 1: is this just a small little microcosm that's an anomaly
Speaker 1: that shouldn't be looked at, or or if we should
Speaker 1: care about or do you think there's something bigger where
Speaker 1: maybe people don't want freedom of speech and we don't
Speaker 1: need this freedom of communication even in money. I mean,
Speaker 1: people are opposed to Canadians or or Russia getting out
Speaker 1: of sanctions, which is kind of the same thing. Almost. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's honestly scary because I would argue that, well, it
Speaker 1: was someone tweeted this. Whether Elon successfully takes over Twitter
Speaker 1: or not, he's sort of forced all of the people
Speaker 1: that believe in censorship or are anti free speech to
Speaker 1: show their cards, because if you're against his private takeover
Speaker 1: of a business at a premium to all the shareholders,
Speaker 1: I mean, you don't get it. Right, that's anti capitalism,
Speaker 1: anti competition, anti civilization even right, that's fast, it's fascism ultimately,
Speaker 1: because now who's at vanguard steps in and bought a
Speaker 1: stake to basically against the bat and and the reason
Speaker 1: they don't want it is because he's offering to have
Speaker 1: freedom of speech exactly exactly. They want to keep their
Speaker 1: hands on the censorship lovers. And Twitter is the biggest
Speaker 1: media platform in the war world. Jeff Bezos bought Washington
Speaker 1: Post and nobody cared about that because he didn't want
Speaker 1: freedom of speeches. That's I guess that's the attack, right,
Speaker 1: the freedom of speech. Yeah, and Twitter, in my opinion,
Speaker 1: is the most important media outlet in the world. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's things with bigger user bases and bigger revenue, but um,
Speaker 1: in terms of ideas being exchanged, I think Twitter has
Speaker 1: the most density for that um and the censorship has
Speaker 1: been rampant frankly, so I it's very encouraging in a
Speaker 1: way that a guy like Ellen is standing up for
Speaker 1: the freedom of speech and really putting his money where
Speaker 1: his mouth is. Elon does not funk around, which you know,
Speaker 1: he's someone else twe did this. Elon was the first
Speaker 1: guy that got rich and actually did cool ship with
Speaker 1: his money. Yeah, I think that's pretty well said. But
Speaker 1: ultimately this all grounds out on Bitcoin again though, because
Speaker 1: even if Ellen takes over successfully and tries to reincorporate
Speaker 1: the principles of speech, he's still going to have pressure
Speaker 1: from the state, you know, the state broadly, you know
Speaker 1: multiple states that that Twitter is operating within to sensors
Speaker 1: certain people about certain things, and so that it will
Speaker 1: become the arbiter of truth he or his his management team,
Speaker 1: and Bitcoin just again obviates the need for all this.
Speaker 1: It's like, if we can build communication platforms media platforms
Speaker 1: on top of bitcoin that are transmitting micropayments of SATs
Speaker 1: with these each message. You can basically make messaging unstoppable,
Speaker 1: as unstoppable as the money itself, and in doing so,
Speaker 1: you can implement actual free speech in the digital domain.
Speaker 1: So we don't even have to have the conversation of
Speaker 1: censorship anymore. It's just like you can speak as freely
Speaker 1: in real life as you can and on on Twitter
Speaker 1: or the bitcoin equivalent. If bitcoin would be like digital cash,
Speaker 1: so it's peer to peer, so it's almost like cash,
Speaker 1: but digitally where I could give it to you and
Speaker 1: there's nobody in between to stop a lack can prevent it. Um.
Speaker 1: It could also move um conversation almost as I'm talking
Speaker 1: to you peer to peer with nobody in between that
Speaker 1: could stop it. Black and are prevented. That's right, and
Speaker 1: it changes the game for a lot of things. Changes
Speaker 1: the game for podcasting, you know, like stream SATs to
Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. Um Peters and I talked about us
Speaker 1: in our interview. He thinks that all the social media
Speaker 1: bullying has to do with the fact that there's zero
Speaker 1: cost of messaging. There's no cost to being a schmuck
Speaker 1: on Twitter. But you would never say those those would
Speaker 1: never say the same thing in her life because they
Speaker 1: get punched in the face, especially not to you. So
Speaker 1: and Saylor went deep on this in our series together
Speaker 1: or he talks about Twitter implementing bitcoin to have like
Speaker 1: the orange check or the blue check and basically a
Speaker 1: skin in the game reputation system that would cleanse the
Speaker 1: quality of discourse online. And I think it's brilliant. Also,
Speaker 1: I think it's almost as as inevitable as bitcoin, because again,
Speaker 1: people want that. People want a place you could just
Speaker 1: speak freely and interact without the throw of censorship or
Speaker 1: any top down control like that's that's a universal that's
Speaker 1: in universal demand. Let's say even the people that want
Speaker 1: to censor others like they don't they themselves do not
Speaker 1: want to be sensors. So when that domain opens that
Speaker 1: can sense or no one, everyone's gonna migrate there. It's
Speaker 1: the same dynamic, same reasons people are adopting bitcoin, people
Speaker 1: adopt bitcoin based media. Yeah, and I know we're both
Speaker 1: friends with Justin over at Zion and both involved in that.
Speaker 1: So shout out to Zion because they're hoping to bring that,
Speaker 1: helping to bring that, and so um, we're going to
Speaker 1: see more and more of that. Well, I think with
Speaker 1: that we'll go ahead and sign it off. We've covered
Speaker 1: a lot of ground, always of pleasure, um talking to you.
Speaker 1: We referenced obviously your show What Is Money and the
Speaker 1: upcoming uh with the release I should say, of your
Speaker 1: interview with with Jordan Peterson, So definitely check that out.
Speaker 1: Anything else you want to bring attention to. No, man,
Speaker 1: it's been great talking to you. Um. You know, the
Speaker 1: sub stack is the Freedom antiox that's linked on Twitter profile.
Speaker 1: So if you want to follow the reading more than
Speaker 1: the talking, that's another option. And uh no, we're gonna
Speaker 1: be releasing I did five in person interviews in Miami,
Speaker 1: so we're gonna be releasing those over the next few weeks. Um.
Speaker 1: I hope, I hope everyone likes them. Feel free to
Speaker 1: engage let me know Hi. Robert. Always a pleasure, Thanks
Speaker 1: so much, Thank you Mark. All Right, you've been listening
Speaker 1: to the Mark Moss Show. I've been joined in the
Speaker 1: studio with Robert Breedlove, the host of the What Is
Speaker 1: Money Show and podcast. Make sure to check Robert out
Speaker 1: and shoot us some message on Twitter and tell us
Speaker 1: you heard us on the Mark Moss Show. That's what
Speaker 1: we got for you today. I appreciate you listening until
Speaker 1: next time.