WEBVTT - The Mark Moss Show - Talking with Robert Breedlove 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:02.520 Hey, everyone, Welcome to another episode of The Mark Moss 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:07.800 Show where we talk about bitcoin, cryptocurrencies, and the decentralized revolution. Today, 0:00:07.960 --> 0:00:11.239 I am bringing you a very special guest, maybe one 0:00:11.280 --> 0:00:14.400 of the definitely one of the bigger names, and I 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:15.760 don't know about the biggest name, but one of the 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:19.280 bigger names in the bitcoin space. Uh. He's a good friend, 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:21.040 someone I hang out with quite a bit. I'm proud 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:23.000 to call him a friend, UM, and he is one 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:27.280 of the best thinkers in the space. During the Bitcoin Conference, 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:30.080 he had a special event where he sat down with 0:00:30.120 --> 0:00:32.239 one of the biggest thinkers in the world. Today, I'm 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:34.960 talking about Jordan Peterson, and I'm also talking about Robert 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:36.599 breed Love. So I'm sitting down with Robert breed Love. 0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:38.839 He gotta sit down with Jordan Peterson and man, the 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:42.520 conversation was unbelievable, and I'm having him on the show 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:46.559 to talk to you today about what money is and 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:48.400 so much more. Let's go ahead and jump in um 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:52.159 with Robert right now. Hi, Robert, thanks for joining me 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:54.040 again today. Or is a pleasure sitting down with you. 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:57.960 I've been looking forward to it, um, Mark has not 0:00:58.000 --> 0:01:00.080 been that long, so nice to see you again for 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:03.120 what's been a week. Well it's been a while since 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:05.560 I've had you on the channel. But yeah, we got 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:07.720 to hang out quite a bit last week, which was 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:10.800 which was awesome. I was loft hanging out with you. Um, 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:14.560 so we were hanging out at Bitcoin two thousand twenty two. UM, 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:16.800 let's talk about that just for a minute. What did 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:19.520 you think about the conference? Just I guess from a 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:22.880 high level, Well, this year was definitely a lot bigger. 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:27.760 Let's take away. UM, I think it was really well done. 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:30.959 I like to layout inside the convention center. Um, it 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:32.760 was a bit confusing, I think at the beginning, just 0:01:32.800 --> 0:01:35.240 trying to get the lay of the land. Yeah, once 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:39.959 you knew everything was it was a nice flow. Um. 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:43.600 The experienced me was very similar to last year. Actually, 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:47.760 like almost everywhere I went, I'm just getting mobbed with love. 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:50.560 You know, people are like thank you for whatever the 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:53.600 Sailor series or this thing you wrote or you know, 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:57.080 this interview of yours. What I saw, I was overwhelmed 0:01:57.080 --> 0:02:00.640 because I thought back at Bitcoin twenty twenty one, that 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:03.560 was kind of an anomaly year. You know, Bitcoin was 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:06.920 way up, you know, the show was new, and that 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:11.000 was my experience at Bitcoin people mobbing me with love, like, 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:13.680 oh surely bitcoin, this one will be more calm now, 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:16.639 calmed down, chilled out because bitcoin price isn't moving as much. 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:19.360 I've been putting out a lot of work, but you 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:22.400 just don't. You and I have talked about this. You 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:24.559 put out a lot of work sort of in isolation, 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:28.240 and you don't really see the impact on people's lives, 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:30.200 but you see it through social media a little bit, 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:34.679 but to see it in person, it's a whole different ballgame. Um, 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:37.799 I think the vibe was tremendous. I mean, I'm more 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:40.919 bullish on the bitcoin community than ever. People are just 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:47.920 this this transformation that occurs personally, psychologically, financially. You know, 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:52.679 it really seems to be like rippling through everyone and 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:55.880 hopefully changing lives. It was better, So it was it 0:02:55.960 --> 0:03:00.519 was really nice to see that phenomenon up closing personal again. Yeah, 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:04.160 I also think about, um, you know, when you're investing adventure, 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:06.440 and I know you had your fund going for a while, 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:09.720 so like you know, when you're investing adventure, Um, typically 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:12.440 those are you know, six seven, ten years before you 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:14.720 see those types of deals come to fruition, and so 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:17.040 like how do you track that and like you tracked 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:20.720 the user growth and you can track the development on 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:22.600 the network. I think about those two metrics, and so 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:24.760 if you look at the growth the trajectory of the 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:29.320 audience growth, right, So from fiftudred people one was I 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:31.040 don't know, ten thousand people in this year was like 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:36.160 thirty thousand people, right, yeah, yeah, were you at nineteen 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:39.440 yea in San Francisco? That was like it was small 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:44.760 people maybe, and then they I guess ten extra one 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:48.840 or we last two years so was off because of 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:52.480 the COVID Yeah, and so yeah, I think it was 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:55.440 thirteen or fourteen thousand people last year and then this 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:59.400 year was what thirty five thousand? Yeah. Um, They've built 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:01.280 a hell of a build this. You know, it's kind 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:04.200 of centered on that one giant event per year, and 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:08.680 I really enjoyed it. I am sort of regretful, Like 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:10.640 I missed the last day of the conference because I 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:13.080 had the Peterson event that night. I started to lose 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:15.000 my voice in the morning, so I was really worried 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:16.680 about going to the conference and not being able to 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:20.279 speak during the interview. Ended up skipping that last day 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:23.680 and just resting my voice and then the day after 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:28.040 they had the comed Comedians and Music Festival, which I 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:31.680 actually wanted to attend, but um, you know, we're doing 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:35.080 other events and all that that day. So just we're 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:37.120 hanging out of Michael Peter's IM sorry, we're hanging out 0:04:37.160 --> 0:04:41.400 into Michael Saylor's house, having and that was a really 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:43.560 good time. That was a highlight for me to you 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:46.760 just to get together with you know, so many people 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:49.680 that we were close with and just had a little huddle. 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:52.320 It was. It was a lot of fun. Yeah, yeah. 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:54.680 And then I mean talking about you know, Michael Sailor, 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:57.440 just like that, the high level of people that are 0:04:57.480 --> 0:05:00.560 at those events, so like again from it was pretty 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:04.360 like hardcore bitcoiners um and this year we had billionaires 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:08.000 obviously Michael Sailor, senators there, Cynthia Loomis, and then I 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:11.839 mean Jordan Peterson. I mean, there's probably nobody bigger in 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:16.039 the thought leader space today than that guy, right, yeah, 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:19.120 I mean, I certainly think so it's pretty clear my 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:23.560 my perspective on Peterson, He's definitely the greatest impact on 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:27.839 my thinking for a living person. You know, maybe Mesas 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:29.520 and some of these other guys are are up there 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:33.679 as wealth in terms of people that are past. But UM, 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:35.000 it was an honor, you know, it was an honor 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:38.000 to put this event together. I really enjoyed our conversation. 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:43.039 Um he I appreciate his skepticism and his thoughtfulness, you know, 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:46.520 just drinking the kool aid. You know, he's really trying 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:48.320 to look come at it from multiple angles and and 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:51.120 take the argument or you know, the bitcoin thesis apart. 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:54.919 And that's ultimately what makes it so valuable is trying 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:58.960 to do Um. He's an extremely fast thinker, fast talker. 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:02.320 You know, he's got a lot of intellectual horsepower. Yeah, 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:06.480 up with even But I thought his fireside chat with 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:10.040 Terror was great. That was more, I guess, a bit 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:14.440 more surface level in terms of his thinking about macroeconomics 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:18.320 and bitcoin. And then that night, UM, which was our 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:22.520 first in person for first live event, first interview I've 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:24.320 done in front of a live studio audience. We had 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:26.120 when you were there in the front row and we 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:33.119 had seven people there, I think, Wow, isn't that many? Dang? Yeah? Deep, 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:34.520 you know, I tried to I tried to skip the 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:36.960 surface level discussion. It was go straight to the bottom 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:40.440 of the rabbit hole. And you know, he's so fascinating. 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:43.240 You can talk about anything and you can tie it 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:47.919 back to really these different psychological dimensions and you know, 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:51.279 human development. We talked a lot about game theory and 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:55.880 how humans sort of bootstrap morality through play and nature 0:06:55.920 --> 0:06:58.920 of voluntary versus involuntary games, and we're tying all these 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:02.680 things back to money and bitcoin. You know. That's my 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:04.640 littles to us for an interview is I just try 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:07.640 to I really I'm trying to learn. I call it 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:09.520 learning out loud. So I want to have conversations that 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:11.880 are interesting to me, that are pushing my own understanding 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:14.600 where I'm at the edge of my understanding, and hopefully 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:18.280 my guest is as well. And we're producing something novel 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:21.920 and useful in that in that dialogue, and I think 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:24.120 we did it. You know, the feedback from the live 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:27.840 event was was wonderful. Um, we're working on releasing the 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:29.920 video now in the next few days. We're just running 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:32.800 it through the edit flow and making sure it's tight 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:36.600 and so we'll see what the world thinks. I thought 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:38.280 it was amazing the amount of work that you did 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:41.240 in advance to like really put the questions in order 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:43.000 and build you know, kind of from that from that 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:47.600 first principle's level so highly anticipated for you to release that, 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:49.720 I'll watch it again. Everybody else shout as well. But 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:51.800 um so, if we look at the Bitcoin you know, 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:53.480 like I said, if we look at the Bitcoin conference, 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:55.400 the growth, the growth of the trajectory of the audience, 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:57.240 the amount of people that have come there, like the 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:01.080 mind share that's coming over the space, it's like pretty amazing. 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:04.080 It's definitely one metric that I'm looking at. One of 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:07.160 the things that I saw at the conference was I 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:09.200 worked at news desk. I know you worked at as well. 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:10.840 For a couple of days. I was. I was working 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:14.080 on Industry Day, which was the first day, and there 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:15.360 was a lot of people from the industry, and they're 0:08:15.360 --> 0:08:18.440 talking about, you know, we need regulations and we need clarity, 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:20.680 and they kept saying, we need to push for mass adoption, 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:23.440 push for mass adoption, push for match it up mass adoption. 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:25.880 And I thought, uh, I was like, you know, my 0:08:26.040 --> 0:08:28.960 contrary and take is that we don't need to push 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:32.800 for mass adoption. One like Alex Fetski says, the masses 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.720 are always wrong. But I was just saying that Per 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:39.920 two thou eighteen FED report of Americans don't even have 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:43.840 four hundred dollars for an emergency. So I'm like, those 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:47.880 people don't even need to worry about like bitcoin or crypto. Um, 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:51.400 what's your thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean I'm sort 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:53.560 of I guess I'm in alignment in a way that 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:57.840 I've always thought of bitcoins adoption would progress according to 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:00.240 the minority rule. And we you know, I've and some 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:02.520 about this. This is a concept I picked up from 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:07.559 teleb But just this idea that the preferences of an 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:12.520 obstinate minority typically can influence the preferences of the whole, 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:15.439 as long as the whole doesn't there's there's sort of 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:18.200 indifferent to what. Most people don't care, like they want 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:20.240 their money to just work, right, I want to wipe 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:22.319 the card and put the thing in the account and 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:26.840 know that it's there. Um. But if you developed this 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:29.800 and Spetzky, it's a lot of these guys refer to 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:35.200 the remnant, right, the the focused, intelligent minority that's just 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:39.000 stacking SATs to all kingdom. Come it almost it almost 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:44.000 starts to create this growth dynamic and Bitcoin where it's 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:48.200 rules get imposed on others, like you have to to 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:51.400 protect yourself from inflation, or to preserve wealth across time, 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:53.440 or you know, any number of reasons. There's a million 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:56.360 use cases for bitcoin that you end up having to 0:09:56.440 --> 0:10:00.040 use this neutral settlement layer. And I mean that's the 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:03.199 path that I think it follows. Is bitcoin just continues 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:09.280 to monetize. Um. There will always be the die hard stackers, 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:12.200 and when they're just taking new supply off the market, 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:15.400 bitcoins just got the you know, the cell press run. 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:18.800 Bitcoin is going to be diminished more and more along 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:21.080 with this new issue in ste to do to the having, 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:23.720 which is going to drive price higher and higher and higher, 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:26.000 and eventually that draws in the masses, right, the masses 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:30.000 typically just chase the price. So I mean I'm focused 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:34.240 on that. I think in my educational efforts to I 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:38.120 call it, you know, raising an army of educators. And 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:40.520 you see, you had this brilliant quote one time, the 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:43.480 setting brush fires and the minds of men something like that. 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:46.200 That captures it as well. It's like, let's just give 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:51.559 people the fundamental view on money, on property, on government, 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:55.800 on the nature of our socio economic systems of human cooperation, 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:59.480 and then let them decide. I'm not here to prescribe 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:01.480 the coin in one. I'm just trying to ask big 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:05.480 questions and dig deep and hopefully find some some useful 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:08.640 knowledge in the process. But I think it will ultimately 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:13.800 be that that small cadre of people that will really 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:18.560 just by holding such a secure footprint on the network 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:22.880 and not accepting any inferior savings technology, not bending to 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:28.600 any regulation or any threat um, that's what's gonna trigger 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:31.560 this hyper bitcoinization type of event that we that we 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:33.840 all look forward to. All Right, you're listening to the 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:36.240 Mark mo Show. We're talking about bitcoin. We're talking about 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:39.280 the decentralized revolution. I'm sitting down with Robert Breedlove from 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:42.680 the What Is Money Show? Right now, don't go away, 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:44.440 we have a lot more to go when we come back. 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:47.040 All right, welcome back. You are listening to the Mark 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:50.320 Moss Show. I'm in the studio today joined by Robert Breedlove. 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:53.480 He's host of the What Is Money Podcast? You can 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:56.120 find them on podcast or on YouTube. One of the 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:58.920 greatest thinkers. Today we're talking about his conversation with Jordan 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:01.920 Peterson at the Point conference and What is Money. Let's 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:04.920 pick it back up here. Yeah, so your show What 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:07.200 Is Money and then what is money? Show? W I 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:09.840 am has been basically trying to answer that, like what 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:13.280 is money? And yeah, the majority of people just have 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:15.560 no idea what money is? And so then back to 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:17.720 like needing to push for adoption. It's like those people 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:21.160 don't even know they have a problem. Um, I say, Uh, 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:23.440 in marketing, we'd say it's much easier to sell food 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:26.080 to someone who's starving than to convince them of their 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:29.760 starving first and then try to sell them food, right. Uh. 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:33.240 In Venezuela where their currency is blown up, you don't 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:34.559 have to convince them that they should get out of 0:12:34.600 --> 0:12:37.079 that currency and into something else, um, you know, or 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:38.800 in Canada when they got kicked out of the banking 0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:40.680 system or their bank accounts are about to get seized, 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:43.640 you don't have to convince them. Um. So a lot 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:45.360 of it's just like bringing the attention to that. But 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:48.880 you've focused on this what is money um, and a 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:50.920 lot of people just don't know that. I guess if 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:54.480 we dig into that, I know you've outlined a bunch 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:58.400 like the certain attributes of money, UM, tell tell us 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:02.880 what those are real quick? Yeah. So I think when 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:06.080 you there's so many answers to this question. I literally 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:09.560 have an ongoing blog series right now. I've answer to 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:13.600 that question that both I've either discovered in reading or 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:16.320 I've maybe sort of put together through my own thinking, 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:18.960 or I've just been given by guests. You know, a 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:20.800 lot of guests come on the show and they have 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:24.480 some unique answer to it. Um. But it's really interesting, 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:26.840 you know, and a lot of people. It seems like 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:28.880 it's resonated with the audience too, because a lot of 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:32.760 people didn't notice that it was such a fundamental question. 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:34.840 But like now that you asked it, I've heard all 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:37.000 these different answers, Like it's one of those really deep 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:39.800 questions like what is truth or what is value? You know, 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:43.160 it's something. Um, it's just a rabbit hole, I guess, 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:47.319 and a nutshell. But for me, my original, the original 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:50.839 drama is beating a lot was Okay, you want to 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:55.880 understand bitcoin, the coins and novel innovation. It's new. It's 0:13:56.240 --> 0:14:01.040 very complicated. You could lead with the technical explanation of bitcoin, 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:05.240 you know, like cryptography and distributed computing networks and game 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:08.520 theory and all of this, but I think that for 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:12.280 most people they just kind of have that glazed overlook 0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:16.199 when you take that approach. So my realization was, as 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:18.120 you said, if you don't know what the problem is, 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.160 then you can't really put bitcoin in the proper context. 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:25.160 So I said, I tried to dispense with this technical 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:28.960 explanation of bitcoin as a modern technology and really take 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:31.280 the opposite tack entirely. Let's forget all that and just 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:34.560 go to the very beginning, the first principles or whatever 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:37.400 of human history and say, what is money? How did 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:41.240 we get money? Um? We all know that gold became 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:45.240 money historically. And I put people like Ray Dalio in 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:48.760 this group, like, he gets money very deeply relative to 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:53.040 most people, but when he looks at gold, his explanation 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:55.400 for why gold became money is it has intrinsic value, 0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:59.720 and that's a failing in my opinion. There are specific 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:04.360 properties that human beings demand and money, and I think that, 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:07.600 for me is the bottom of that question. It's like 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:12.320 just explaining the properties people want in the money. Um. 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:15.480 And I've put it like this before. We often talk 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:19.840 about goods and services, you know, distinguishing say the physical 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:23.600 good a shovel, for instance, versus the service which is 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:28.240 digging holes. But it's ultimately what we're all ultimately looking 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:31.360 for services, even the good itself. We only demand that 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:34.960 good because the services it renders to us, or the 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:38.920 the it can accelerate us towards the achievement of our aim. Right, 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:41.000 I can dig holes faster with a shovel than with 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:43.320 my bare hands, So you start to think of it 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:47.800 in those terms. Then it's all about services even money. 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:51.520 So it's like, what services do people demand from money? 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:53.680 Another way of saying that is what properties to people 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:57.200 demand from money? And again this is a question if 0:15:57.200 --> 0:16:00.800 you ask guys like Edstrom. He wrote a book on 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:04.080 this with fourteen properties of money. You will read the 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:06.560 Austrians they have seven, they have ten. It just depends 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:08.880 what you read. I tried to narrow it down as 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:11.480 much as possible and I got it down to five. 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:15.480 And this was influenced by an excellent book actually that's 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:21.400 available free online titled Honest Money by Gary North. Gary 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:24.800 North just passed away. He's like a Christian libertarian philosopher. 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:28.280 It's a free pdf on mesas dot org. You can 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:31.240 also buy an Amazon it. He narrowed it down to 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:40.240 you um divisibility, durability, recognizability, portability, scarcity, and when I 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:43.480 first got into this bitcoin media explanation of like, you know, 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:47.840 talking about what is money and explaining explaining the money 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:51.360 in a historical context. That was adequate to put bitcoin 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:56.520 in and have bitcoin be understood. And I think that chain, 0:16:56.840 --> 0:17:01.200 that that explanatory chain was really successful actually because then 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:05.840 you're like, oh, I get it. Gold was the most divisible, durable, recognizable, portable, 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:09.200 scarest thing we had. That's why we demanded it as money. 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:12.879 That's why it became money. You also understand what gold lacked, right, 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:16.280 which was portability. Very hard to move gold across space, 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:20.040 even though it holds value well across time, which explains 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:24.440 why we abstracted gold into a paper currency. Right, we're 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:29.040 in we're augmenting its transactibility across space, increasing its portability. 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:31.760 But that introduced the problem, right, we now need to 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:34.720 trust the guy that's warehousing the gold not to over 0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:37.879 issue the paper claims on gold. That was the ultimate 0:17:37.920 --> 0:17:40.880 honey pot for governments and central banks. Historically it's become 0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:43.480 the most corrupt institution in the world, as we've talked 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:48.520 about that nauseum. And so it explains all that. Just 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:50.439 look at the properties of money. And then finally, if 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:53.520 you evaluate bitcoin through that lens of the properties of money. 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:56.240 You see that it's the most perfect money we've ever had. 0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:58.160 All Right, I just want to let you know real quick. 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:00.119 You are listening to the Mark Moa Show and in 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:02.800 the studio with Robert Breedlove. He's the host of the 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:06.240 What Is Money Show and podcast. Um, we have a 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:08.280 lot more to discuss. I have a whole list of 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:10.520 questions you do not want to miss. So don't go away. 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:13.159 We are back. All right, welcome back. You are listening 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:15.440 to the Mark Moss Show. I'm in the studio today, 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:18.199 joined by Robert Breedlove. He's host of the What Is 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:22.040 Money Podcast? You can find him on podcast or on YouTube. 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:24.600 One of the greatest thinkers. Today we're talking about his 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:27.359 conversation with Jordan Peterson at the Bitcoin conference and what 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:30.920 is Money? Let's pick it back up here. So if 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:34.960 we if we trust the money with the best reputation. Okay, 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:37.000 that's one thing which I guess has been the dollar. 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:38.920 I mean it was gold obviously, and then it's the dollar. 0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:42.320 But then think about this, so then, um, what is 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:45.360 the dollar? Right? The dollar is really this is something 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:49.199 I've been thinking about quite a bit. The dollar really 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:53.360 is a payment network is what it is, right, It's 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:55.639 the way, it's the easiest way, the best way, the 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:58.600 best reputation to move money around the world. And so 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:01.159 of course Russia, I didn't just get their dollars sees, 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:03.600 they didn't even have that many dollars. They got their 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:06.240 f X accounts because they had a bunch of different currencies, 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:08.320 They got their f X reserve sees, and they got 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:11.399 kicked out of the Swift system, the payment network. And 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:14.119 so not only did they kill the dollar, which you 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:17.600 had the best reputation, but also the payment network, which 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:21.040 is actually a pretty big deal when you think about that. Yeah, absolutely, 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:24.080 and you know, I would say, first and foremost, the 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:27.320 dollar is a derivative of gold. That's the only reason 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:30.800 we ever had a paper currency anywhere ever, was to 0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:37.919 facilitate the portability of precious metals, whether gold, whatever it was. Obviously, 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:44.320 due to technological realities and or people's ignorance of the 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:48.200 financial system and money, we got to nineteen seventy one 0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:51.439 right where we broke that peg permanently. We've never looked 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:55.639 back um and shortly after that, right, because you know, 0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:58.520 to use a sailor aphorism, money as energy, right, it's 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:02.000 economic energy, right. The dollar was pegged to the energy 0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:05.199 expenditure necessary to produce gold. That's what secured its supply. 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:09.440 When we break that peg, you can't leave the dollar unpegged. 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:14.040 So very quickly it was repegged black gold, the petro dollar. 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:17.639 So that's now what the United States it's it's the 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:21.679 point of leverage the United States uses to impose this. Uh. 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:24.280 I think it's glad Seemed typically calls it the global 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:29.639 dollar hedgeminy um, and it's you know, we forcibly denominate 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:33.400 oil contracts and oil or in dollars rather etcetera, etcetera. 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:35.920 That's also changing now, like as a result of the 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:39.080 Russia thing, I think they're selling oil and rupees and 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:42.840 other currencies. So that whole the unipolar world we had 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:47.159 around the dollar, it's being ripped apart in real time. Um. 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:50.159 And it's hard to say where that goes, but you know, 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:52.520 you you bring up swift to Russia getting kicked off 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:56.479 that Ultimately it's just a messaging system, right, You're just 0:20:57.040 --> 0:21:00.119 messaging amounts of money across this network. There's not any 0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:05.560 final settlement occurring in terms of like gold being transmitted, right, um, 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:07.639 And so all again, all these things like it's just 0:21:07.720 --> 0:21:11.120 another big billboard for bitcoin. So you've got to kick 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:14.560 us off the global trade network effectively by kicking us 0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:17.119 off the SWIL system. Is there an alternative messaging system 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:20.840 we could use to conduct this international trade? All turns 0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:23.600 out there is yeah, And that's where I'm to turn off. 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:25.880 That's where I'm going. I'm trying to use your technique 0:21:25.880 --> 0:21:30.639 to build this conversation. So if if the dollar was 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:33.000 the money with the best reputation, but really it's the 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:35.399 payment network. To your point, it's like a messaging network. 0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:38.440 What's the best reputation. But now we found out that 0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:40.439 well that you can all use the network if we 0:21:40.520 --> 0:21:43.119