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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff give you, guys, the best independent.

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Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible.

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Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means

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Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support.

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Speaker 3: But enough with that, let's get to the show.

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Speaker 1: There has been quite a political drama playing out in

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Speaker 1: the state of Nebraska with regard to their electoral college votes.

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Speaker 1: So if you're not a total political geek, you may

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Speaker 1: not know. Nebraska and Maine allocate their electoral college votes

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Speaker 1: in a different way than I think any other state.

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Speaker 1: Instead of doing it as Twitter take all, like you

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Speaker 1: win the state, you get the electoral college votes, end

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Speaker 1: of story, they do it by congressional district. That means

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Speaker 1: that there is a district in Nebraska which is a

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Speaker 1: perennial swing congressional district that is worth one electoral college vote.

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Speaker 1: So there was an effort in the Nebraska legislature to

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Speaker 1: try to change the way that they did their electoral

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Speaker 1: college vote allocation to put it in line with all

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Speaker 1: of the other states that just do win or take all.

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Speaker 1: To put this up on the screen, this is very signific.

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Speaker 1: I'll get into this. It could actually end up being

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Speaker 1: the difference between who wins and who loses. But you

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Speaker 1: had one Republican senator who was a kind of a

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Speaker 1: holdout who yesterday finally issued a statement saying he would

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Speaker 1: not vote for this proposed winner take all system for

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Speaker 1: Nebraska's electoral college votes. He said quote, elections should be

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Speaker 1: an opportunity for all voters to be heard, no matter

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Speaker 1: who they are, where they live, or what party they support.

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Speaker 1: For decades, Nebraska's try to live up to that ideal

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Speaker 1: by allocating our electoral college votes in a way that

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Speaker 1: gives all Nebraskans an equal voice in choosing our president.

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Speaker 1: For Omaha, the city I love and have called home

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Speaker 1: for fifty eight years, it brings tremendous national attention, is

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Speaker 1: impactful on our local economy, and forces presidential candidates to

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Speaker 1: make their case to all Nebraskans instead of just flying

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Speaker 1: over and disregarding us. In recent weeks, a conversation about

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Speaker 1: whether to change how we allocate our votes has returned

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Speaker 1: to the forefront. I respect the desire to have this discussion,

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Speaker 1: and I have taken time to listen carefully. After deep consideration,

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Speaker 1: it is clear to me that right now, forty three

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Speaker 1: days from election day, is not the moment to make

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Speaker 1: this change. And Sara, you can kind of understand his perspective, because, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if Nebraska didn't allocate their electoral college votes this way,

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Speaker 1: no politician would ever care about campaigning in Nebraska again,

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Speaker 1: which also just sort of serves to underscore what an

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Speaker 1: absurd system the electoral college system is to begin with,

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Speaker 1: that you only really matter in this election coming up

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Speaker 1: if you live in a handful seven specifically of different

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Speaker 1: swing states plus one district in Maine and one district

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Speaker 1: in Nebraska.

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Speaker 2: Well, I actually kind of my hot take. I kind

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Speaker 2: of like the congressional allocation. You know, I don't hate

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Speaker 2: the system.

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Speaker 1: I like it better than the way they do it

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Speaker 1: now because that makes you forces you to campaign work.

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Speaker 2: I like that idea, especially in Nebraska. Nobody thinks about

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Speaker 2: it's definition of a flyover state. This is basically all

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Speaker 2: they got going for him, So that's what they're taking.

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Speaker 2: Obviously Trump wanted to remove it, but I mean, the

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Speaker 2: main reason, let's go ahead and put C two please

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Speaker 2: up on the screen. Is because of that path to

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Speaker 2: democratic victory. So what you see in front of you

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Speaker 2: is the potential potential If Kamalaw were to win Wisconsin, Michigan,

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Speaker 2: and Pennsylvania, but lose Georgia, Arizona and Nevada, with that

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Speaker 2: single electoral vote from Nebraska, she would win two hundred

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Speaker 2: and seventy to two hundred and sixty eight electoral votes.

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Speaker 3: That would be this is this nail biting as this

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Speaker 3: is zilbiery.

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Speaker 2: That's very possible scenario, very possible scenario, and so that

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Speaker 2: the polling average is actually is the most possible scenario.

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Speaker 4: That's true. Yeah, that is true. Yeah, that one.

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Speaker 1: That's why people have paid so much attention to this,

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Speaker 1: because that one electoral college vote in Nebraska, which right

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Speaker 1: now it is a swing district, but it favors Democrats

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Speaker 1: and the polling that we've seen at this point. You

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Speaker 1: add that to just the three quote unquote blue wall

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Speaker 1: states Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania, where her poles have tended

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Speaker 1: to be decent, Pennsylvania being the most tenuous of them,

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Speaker 1: she could lose all the Sun Belt states and still

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Speaker 1: win the narrowest of victories. And obviously, like you know,

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Speaker 1: doing the math here, if they changed it was winner

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Speaker 1: take all.

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Speaker 4: You could end up if you had.

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Speaker 1: This same map, but it's winner take all in Nebraska,

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Speaker 1: you end up with a two sixty nine and two

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Speaker 1: sixty nine tigh and then as a contingent election, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, Scager, what even happened that goes.

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Speaker 3: To the House.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if it was Tuesday nine twenty nine, it it's

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Speaker 2: contingent election, it would go to the House representatives.

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Speaker 3: Basically hasn't had.

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Speaker 1: Nightmare, total nightmare nime of scenario for.

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Speaker 4: The whole country, but there is will be interesting.

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Speaker 3: A lot of people have been right.

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Speaker 2: Actually, I saw Dana bash Now just wrote a book

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Speaker 2: audible for some reason was trying to force it down

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Speaker 2: my throat. But prior to this year, when RFK was

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Speaker 2: in the race, I was doing a lot of eighteen

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Speaker 2: seventy six election righting. And that's the one where the

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Speaker 2: close election in American history. You know, a lot of

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Speaker 2: people do forget if because Harry Enton has been talking

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Speaker 2: about this, this could end up being close selection since

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Speaker 2: nineteen sixty and that is probably more analogus to where

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Speaker 2: we'll end up. A lot of people don't remember, but

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Speaker 2: the margin between Kennedy and Nixon was razor tight, and

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Speaker 2: there were allegations of cheating. Nineteen sixties also where the

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Speaker 2: whole alternate elector scheme came up with.

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Speaker 3: That's what they did in Hawaii.

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Speaker 2: So there's some parallels to where we are today for

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Speaker 2: the polling average and where the eventual the eventual result

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Speaker 2: may end up.

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Speaker 3: Kennedy, it was this close, this close for him to

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Speaker 3: end up.

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Speaker 5: In the White House.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's very unlikely that you have

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Speaker 1: a popular vote blowout, you know. I mean it could

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Speaker 1: be like three four points would be the most that

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Speaker 1: would separate the popular vote. But then you know, the

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Speaker 1: electoral college oftentimes all the swing states go in one

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Speaker 1: direction or the other direction. But you'll recall we covered

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Speaker 1: yesterday these New New York Times Siena polls, which are

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Speaker 1: considered very highly rated coming out of the Sun Belt states,

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Speaker 1: and they were not good for Kamala Harris. They showed

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Speaker 1: a lot of try strength. So this that's which is

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Speaker 1: why that makes this Nebraska move even more sign potentially signial.

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Speaker 2: To your point, Crystal, I mean, just this morning, you know,

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Speaker 2: we were talking about that, and the Time's actually put out

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Speaker 2: a really interesting analysis of its own Arizona polling, and

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Speaker 2: they find that in Arizona that there is a significant

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Speaker 2: split for people who are Diego Trump, so people who

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Speaker 2: don't like Carry Lake but who want to vote for

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Speaker 2: Trump and will vote for a Democrat in the US Senate.

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Speaker 2: They say Trump gets a lyft from Arizona ticket splitters

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Speaker 2: backing a Democrat for Senate. Diego leads in the contest

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Speaker 2: while Kamala Harris trails Donald Trump.

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Speaker 3: And they point.

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Speaker 2: Specifically to the fact that Diego is leading Carry Lake

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Speaker 2: by six whereas quote Trump has opened up a five

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Speaker 2: point lead. That means there's an eleven percent electorate somewhere

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Speaker 2: that is Diego Trump. Remember too, split ticket Maybe it's

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Speaker 2: more common in the age of bad candidates, Like there

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Speaker 2: were a decent number of Oz Shapiro voters, which is

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Speaker 2: kind of a crazy thing to say, But in the

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Speaker 2: state of North Carolina, you could certainly envision that there

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Speaker 2: will be a lot of who is it Josh Stein

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Speaker 2: is that rning aainst him? Yeah, there will be a

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Speaker 2: lot of Stein Trump voters. You could see that, certainly.

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Speaker 3: There would definitely be some but I'm saying the universe

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Speaker 3: huge Trump could win and Stein could also win. That

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Speaker 3: would be nuts.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that would mean tens of thousands of people

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Speaker 2: go to the polls and vote for Democrat and Republican.

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Speaker 2: Very rare in my opinion, in these days. But if

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Speaker 2: you know, crazier things have happened in terms of look

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Speaker 2: in general, just modern politics. I just don't really believe

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Speaker 2: in eleven pointswing, but it is theoretically possible. That's where

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Speaker 2: the polls show. Nobody's really voted that way since two

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Speaker 2: thousand and eight. People don't really vote that way anymore.

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Speaker 2: But you know, I guess you know, rules are meant

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Speaker 2: to be broken.

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Speaker 1: I'm looking at the real clear politics averages right now,

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Speaker 1: which take all of the polls into account, even some

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Speaker 1: you know, it's controversial. There's been this rise of like

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Speaker 1: right leaning polls that are meant to be almost like

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Speaker 1: messaging polls, and some Polster averages include them and some don't.

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Speaker 4: RCP includes all of them.

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Speaker 1: And as of right now, Harris has a very narrow

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Speaker 1: lead in Nevada point four. She's got also a narrow

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Speaker 1: lead in Pennsylvania point six, Michigan one point eight, and

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Speaker 1: Wisconsin one point, and Trump has narrow leads in the

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Speaker 1: three of the sun Belt states Arizona, North Carolina, and Georgia.

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Speaker 1: But the you know, the closest margin here for Harris

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Speaker 1: is in that fourth Sun Belt state of Nevada. So

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Speaker 1: again underscoring why this could be such a we could

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Speaker 1: look back at this and be like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: that was such a consequential decision that ended up happening

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Speaker 1: with regards to Nebraska.

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Speaker 4: Puts the three up on the screen.

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Speaker 1: That's the latest poll we got out of Wisconsin, which

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Speaker 1: showed some pretty significant Harris's strength there. It has her

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Speaker 1: up fifty one to forty five when you include all

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Speaker 1: of the candidates fifty three forty six in a two

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Speaker 1: way Tammy Baldwin with a similar margin in the Senate

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Speaker 1: race there.

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Speaker 4: Fifty two to forty four.

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Speaker 1: This is the same pole polling outfit mass Inc. That

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Speaker 1: had a Pennsylvania pole that also was good for Harris

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Speaker 1: last week had her up fifty to forty six.

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Speaker 3: Again.

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Speaker 1: You know, this ties in with the sense that okay,

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Speaker 1: she's doing a little bit better in those industrial Midwestern

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Speaker 1: states than she is doing in the Sun Belt states

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Speaker 1: for whatever reason. And one other piece of news with

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Speaker 1: regard to the Sun Belt, though, as we covered in

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Speaker 1: depth the new revelations about Republican gubernatorial candidate Mark Robinson

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Speaker 1: aka Black Nazi, and we can put C four up

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Speaker 1: on the screen. So the Republican Governor's Association has officially

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Speaker 1: called it quits and thrown in the towel on North Carolina.

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Speaker 1: Adviys and RGA spox says, we don't comment on internal

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Speaker 1: strategy or investment decisions, but we can confirm what's public.

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Speaker 1: Our current media buy in North Carolina expires tomorrow and

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Speaker 1: no further placements have been made. Could be some effect

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Speaker 1: on Trump in North Carolina? Maybe, I mean very hard

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Speaker 1: to say. I don't know that reverse coattails are all

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Speaker 1: that common. But when we talked to Logan Phillips yesterday,

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Speaker 1: it's like election forecast or prognosticator runs one of these,

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Speaker 1: you know, comprehensive election models. He was saying, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's not just Mark Robinson, it's the fact that the

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Speaker 1: North Carolina Republican Party in general, which now has a

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Speaker 1: supermajority there in their legislature, has been governing morelike it's

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Speaker 1: like an Alabama or Mississippi party versus a party in

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Speaker 1: a state that is a swing state, and specifically on

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Speaker 1: the issue of abortion, they've adopted fringe positions and past

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Speaker 1: fringe legislation.

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Speaker 4: So when you put.

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Speaker 1: All of that together, does that depress the vote for

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Speaker 1: Republicans a little bit? Does not move a few suburban

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Speaker 1: voters towards Democrats a little bit, question mark. But the

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Speaker 1: fact you've got RGA calling it quits also just means

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Speaker 1: there's going to be less Republican ad dollars going to

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Speaker 1: promote that ticket less coordinated campaign in the state that

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump is a beneficiarrea zero dollars.

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Speaker 2: They basically have pulled out Democratic they are looking right

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Speaker 2: now the analysis, it's like basically zero of currently being

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Speaker 2: reserved for him through television, no ads on Facebook or Google.

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Speaker 2: Dems meanwhile have twelve point five million reserved in the

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Speaker 2: state through November. The next forty something days are going

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Speaker 2: to be a real doozy. If you lived in North

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Speaker 2: carolina're about to get bombarded. There will be nothing counter

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Speaker 2: on the Democratic side. And you just can't tell me

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Speaker 2: that that's not a problem for Trump. It's obviously for

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Speaker 2: the only question is a degree, It could be a point,

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Speaker 2: and that's basically the.

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Speaker 3: Margin of what you won last night.

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Speaker 1: Well, to your point, there's actually a new poll that

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Speaker 1: just came out that I just saw minutes before this segment.

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Speaker 1: That it's a Elon University poll out of North Carolina

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Speaker 1: rated B plus. Polster has come up by a point

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Speaker 1: a single point in the state of North Carolina and

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Speaker 1: has Josh Stein up by fourteen points forty nine to

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Speaker 1: thirty five over Mark Robinson. And I don't know when

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Speaker 1: the polling sample. What this could have predated, Actually the

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Speaker 1: revelation of the whole Black Nazi. I wish I was

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Speaker 1: in the KKK. I wish slavery of slavery's good. Actually,

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Speaker 1: I'd like to own some slaves comment revelation, so it

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Speaker 1: could it could sink even lower than that.

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Speaker 2: Actually, that's honestly nuts, But it does track its tracks

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Speaker 2: a lot. What is Trump doing? How is he combating this?

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Speaker 2: Is he in it to win it? Well, maybe let's

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Speaker 2: go and put this up there on the screen. Trump

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Speaker 2: is now quote holding far fewer rallies than in past runs,

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Speaker 2: and this data, honestly, that's pretty shocking, especially if you're

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Speaker 2: comparing it to the twenty sixteen campaign. So by the numbers,

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Speaker 2: Trump had seventy two rallies between June and September of

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Speaker 2: twenty sixteen. He has held twenty four in this period

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Speaker 2: this year, with another on the calendar for today. So

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Speaker 2: he will soon ramp up a schedule, quote with multiple

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Speaker 2: rallies per week in the final stretch of the campaign.

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Speaker 2: That's according to his own advisors. But look, in twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 2: he had sixty nine in the entire month of October

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Speaker 2: and in early November, taking the stage as many as

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Speaker 2: five times a day in the stretch.

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Speaker 3: That is crazy.

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Speaker 2: And honestly, look, he had did the same thing in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty, even though it was even though it was

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Speaker 2: literally during the pandemic.

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Speaker 3: He had forty three in the five weeks leading up

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Speaker 3: to election day.

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Speaker 2: You and I remember those because what they were is

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Speaker 2: they had that thing where he would arrive in an

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Speaker 2: airplane hangar and he would just get off the plane

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Speaker 2: and he would immediately go to the stage because they

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Speaker 2: would have the stage inside of an airplane hanger. That's

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Speaker 2: probably what they'll continue to do, But the current schedule

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Speaker 2: does not indicate any of that, and that is a

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Speaker 2: real issue now. Of course, he's certainly had a lot

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Speaker 2: more energy back in twenty sixteen because he's coming off

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Speaker 2: of a successful primary run, but he fought for it

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Speaker 2: and he barely won in twenty sixteen. So that is

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Speaker 2: what that is an indication to me. At the same time,

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Speaker 2: his fundraising, it's a problem now versus Kamala Harris. Remember

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Speaker 2: he had a major edge over Joe Biden, but now

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Speaker 2: the Kamala's in the race. Let's put this in there.

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Speaker 2: What we see right now is that there's some one

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Speaker 2: hundred and fifty million dollar shortfall versus Kamala in just

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Speaker 2: the month of August.

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Speaker 3: I mean, Kamala.

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Speaker 2: The big money on the Democratic side this time is insane.

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Speaker 2: It's like Obama four million in a single night out

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Speaker 2: of Hollywood. Kamala twenty something million, twenty five million dollar

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Speaker 2: fundraisers were like unheard of, like what five years to

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Speaker 2: go nowther the norm.

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Speaker 3: They happen all the time.

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Speaker 2: And she is raising just an absolute ton one hundred

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Speaker 2: and eighty nine million in August, while Trump raises just

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Speaker 2: forty four point five million. Harris shook up was previously

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Speaker 2: a more evenly matched cash raise, where both Biden Biden

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Speaker 2: had two eighty four Trump had two seventeen. At the

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Speaker 2: end of the month in June. That was the totals

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Speaker 2: and the coffers, not what they were fundraising. But he's

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Speaker 2: always been a major fundraising juggernaut online. But come on,

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Speaker 2: she's got a lot of money. There's a ton of

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Speaker 2: major Democratic elite enthusiasm. She will not want for anything

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Speaker 2: going into this, and it might just be the you know,

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Speaker 2: the difference whenever it comes down to it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And she's also had much more success crossrooms fundraising

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Speaker 1: than Biden. That's been one of the primary differences between

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Speaker 1: their fundraising. In particular, It's possible that this is less

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Speaker 1: reflective of a true overall cash disparity and more reflective

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Speaker 1: of a different campaign strategies. So increasingly campaigns are outsourcing

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Speaker 1: a lot of their even field work paid community patients,

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Speaker 1: like what used to be seen as sort of core

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Speaker 1: campaign functions, to outside entities that face fewer restrictions and

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Speaker 1: on you know, the use of their money, and some

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Speaker 1: of them, if they don't directly advocate for a canonic

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Speaker 1: even taken you know, dark money, don't have to.

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Speaker 4: Disclose it, et cetera, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: And the Trump campaign seems to have outsource some of

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Speaker 1: those key functions it's actually the strategy remember Ronda Santis

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Speaker 1: used in primary campaign didn't work out that well for him,

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Speaker 1: but could certainly work out fine for Trump, who has

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Speaker 1: demonstrated no issues certainly turning out his folks consistently when

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Speaker 1: it is time for them to show up and pull

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Speaker 1: the lever for Donald Trump. So I just I would

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Speaker 1: take this with a grain of salt. I think it

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Speaker 1: does show I think Kamala Harris is probably doing more fundraisers,

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Speaker 1: working this a little bit harder to me, it's more

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Speaker 1: an indication of Trump kind of you know, he's not

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Speaker 1: doing as much of the work that he used to do.

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Speaker 1: But it's also going back to the rallies point. It

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Speaker 1: was interesting to me the excuses that the campaign gave

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Speaker 1: of the rationale the campaign gave for why he was

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Speaker 1: doing few rallies. They gave three reasons, three primary reasons

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Speaker 1: that he's doing fewer rallies. Number one, they said, he's

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Speaker 1: a known quantity. Campaign feels less need to define him

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Speaker 1: or his candidacy for voters this time around.

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Speaker 4: True, he is a known quantity. That is true. The

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Speaker 4: Harris people feel, I.

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Speaker 1: Think the same way about you know, Okay, people already

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Speaker 1: know maybe we need to remind people of who he

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Speaker 1: is and some of those worst laws that they didn't like.

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Speaker 1: But in general, you're not really going to move people

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Speaker 1: that much on what they think about Donald Trump. But

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Speaker 1: it ignores the fact that you also have a chance

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Speaker 1: at these rallies to define Kamala Harris and Tim Walls

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Speaker 1: in a way that you have so far failed to do.

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Speaker 1: And you know, part of the magic of his twenty

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Speaker 1: sixteen strategy is that the rallies fed into a media

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Speaker 1: strategy that allowed him to grab hold of narratives time

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Speaker 1: and time again in a way that ended up being

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Speaker 1: favorable for him, and that drove a message that was,

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Speaker 1: you know, very critical of Hillary, and that really took

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Speaker 1: hold and really landed with the American public.

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Speaker 4: So that's one.

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Speaker 1: The second reason they give is that rallies are expensive,

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Speaker 1: which true, but I mean kind of reminds me of

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Speaker 1: remember back in twenty sixteen soccer there was a lot

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Speaker 1: of criticism of the Trump rally strategy and they said

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Speaker 1: things like, oh, rallies are really expensive, and oh crowd sized,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't matter, et cetera, et cetera, And so I

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Speaker 1: don't know, like, obviously you sort of proved that this

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Speaker 1: strategy works for you before now getting cause conscious about it.

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Speaker 4: That was interesting to me.

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Speaker 2: There's a human element too, Yeah, everybody, I mean, we're

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Speaker 2: all ignoring Trump has literally been shot at. He got

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Speaker 2: shot in the head also somebody before that. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 2: he wasn't doing it would.

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Speaker 3: Be weird not to be afraid to do a rally.

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Speaker 2: He's doing a rally what is on October fifth and

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Speaker 2: Butler on the site of where the attempted assassination happened.

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Speaker 2: But a lot of people keep pointing that out for

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Speaker 2: the criticisms. They're like, hey, people are shooting at him.

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Speaker 3: He's are like, I mean, look.

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Speaker 2: I would be a Frank too, absolutely kill me. And

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Speaker 2: so I mean he can't really put that aside. So

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Speaker 2: that's certainly part of it. I mean, I guess the

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Speaker 2: other one would be.

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Speaker 1: Well, the other thing they say is he's older and

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Speaker 1: more inclined bast time at mar A Lago, which I

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Speaker 1: think is probably true too, Like he just doesn't want

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Speaker 1: to do it anymore. He doesn't want to do the debate,

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Speaker 1: he doesn't want to do as many rallies.

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Speaker 4: It's exhausting, and.

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Speaker 2: The famous reality own body even in twenty sixteen, So

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Speaker 2: he would have a rally in Nevada, and while any

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Speaker 2: other candidate would just pass out in Nevada, he'd get

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Speaker 2: on the jet and go home to New York just

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Speaker 2: to sleep in his own bed.

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Speaker 3: I sympathize with that. I totally get it.

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Speaker 2: But you know, sometimes being on the campaign trail, that's

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Speaker 2: not always the most practical thing. And he burned a

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Speaker 2: lot of jet fuel doing that. I remember of reading

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Speaker 2: so many articles about it because people are like, it's

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Speaker 2: just such a crazy way to do business. But really

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Speaker 2: what it means I think this time around he's prioritizing himself.

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Speaker 2: I think he feels a little bit more comfortable per

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Speaker 2: se this time around, more set in his own ways,

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Speaker 2: doesn't feel like he has to fight as much. And look,

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Speaker 2: he may be right, you know, right now, he's got

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Speaker 2: a fifty to fifty shot, and if he does end

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Speaker 2: up winning, then all of his condo will really have

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Speaker 2: been for not and he would have had a pretty

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Speaker 2: comfortable run, so to speak, I guess, you know, putting

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Speaker 2: aside him literally getting shot, but putting all that aside,

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Speaker 2: like he would not have had to have worked as

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Speaker 2: hard for the president's as most people have to their

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Speaker 2: first time around, so I'm actually curious.

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Speaker 3: I really don't know where it's going to go.

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Speaker 1: There was one other piece that's been interesting, Oh the Millennia, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which is Milania is absence. She's totally a campaign she

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Speaker 1: They wanted her.

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Speaker 4: To speak at the R and C. Apparently they tried

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Speaker 4: to die.

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Speaker 1: She's like, no, the most I'll do is show up

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Speaker 1: and like, you're lucky I'm doing that. Basically, she's not

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Speaker 1: on the campaign trail at all. She's writing a new

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Speaker 1: memoir about just about herself. She just did this really

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Speaker 1: on a left field video about how like responding to

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Speaker 1: criticism of her nude modeling, which I haven't heard any

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Speaker 1: criticism of her nude modeling in like a decade, but it.

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Speaker 4: Came out of nowhere. Yeah, and one news cycle she

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Speaker 4: just wrote a book.

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Speaker 3: Somebody listen.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, it all feels very like, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: about her and her life and her journey, which I'm

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Speaker 1: sure is interesting in its own regard, but it's very

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Speaker 1: much not really about her husband or his for the

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Speaker 1: White House, et cetera. And there was this news item

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Speaker 1: that is quite curious. So she was apparently paid almost

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Speaker 1: a quarter of a million dollars to speak to the

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Speaker 1: log Cabin Republicans, which is a group of gay Republicans.

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Speaker 1: She delivered speeches at two fundraisers, which is noteworthy in

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Speaker 1: and of itself because again, she's really not doing anything

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Speaker 1: on the campaign trail for her husband. The log Cabin

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Speaker 1: Republican president told CNN his group wasn't the one that

440
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,480
Speaker 1: paid for her appearance, and the form that revealed this

441
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,359
Speaker 1: payment to her didn't provide details on the payments, so

442
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,560
Speaker 1: we actually don't know who put up the cash, which

443
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,560
Speaker 1: is you know, noteworthy and important in and of itself

444
00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,760
Speaker 1: in terms of transparency, sunlight all of that, but it's

445
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:47,920
Speaker 1: also just you know, another interesting look.

446
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,200
Speaker 4: I do feel like if you had.

447
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:54,720
Speaker 1: Any other politician out there right, if Kamala Harris's husband,

448
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,960
Speaker 1: or if Joe Biden's wife or whatever were like pretty

449
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,240
Speaker 1: clearly didn't actually care that much whether their spouse won

450
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,520
Speaker 1: or lost, I think it would be more of a conversation.

451
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:06,280
Speaker 1: But with Trump, again, it's just one of these things

452
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:07,879
Speaker 1: that people are like, Eh, that's just what it is.

453
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, look, I think

454
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:11,960
Speaker 2: it's definitely weird, but you know, it's not like Trump

455
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:13,760
Speaker 2: is always at the most normal personal life.

456
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,919
Speaker 3: So uh, she look, I covered her. She's an enigma.

457
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,919
Speaker 2: That's the only way, Tea. She tried her hand at

458
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,760
Speaker 2: being a more traditional first lady the whole be Best campaign,

459
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:25,600
Speaker 2: which I'll never forget.

460
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:26,040
Speaker 5: I was there.

461
00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:28,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, Wow, wild moment.

462
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:30,360
Speaker 4: Remember when she wore that jacket.

463
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:32,199
Speaker 3: I really don't care, do you?

464
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,120
Speaker 2: Is that what it's said? Yeah, something like I really

465
00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:37,399
Speaker 2: don't care, do you? Yeah, that was a big moment.

466
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,680
Speaker 2: And she eventually just basically retreated into herself and she's like,

467
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:41,840
Speaker 2: I don't care about any.

468
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:43,439
Speaker 3: Of this anymore. I can't really blame her.

469
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,240
Speaker 2: I mean, in a certain sense, a lot of these politicians' wives,

470
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:48,639
Speaker 2: you get dragged to a life that you never wanted.

471
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:50,200
Speaker 3: I mean, it's really sure.

472
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 1: She thought did not think when she was marrying Donald

473
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:54,280
Speaker 1: Trump that this was her future.

474
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:56,520
Speaker 4: She thought, I get to be trophy wife.

475
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:58,280
Speaker 1: I get to hang on it, have my dual life

476
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 1: mar A Lago and in New York City.

477
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:01,000
Speaker 3: It's pretty good.

478
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 1: Like my son in peace and whatever, and do the

479
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:05,720
Speaker 1: little things that I want to do. But that's it,

480
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:06,080
Speaker 1: you know.

481
00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:07,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, well a lot of them.

482
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:09,399
Speaker 2: It's I mean, it's honestly sad. If you read between

483
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,920
Speaker 2: the lines of Obama's book and Michelle Obama's book, there's

484
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 2: some pretty brutal admissions of Obama being like I'm running

485
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,640
Speaker 2: for office, and Michelle's like begging him, like please, don't

486
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,080
Speaker 2: do it, want him, and he just did it, He

487
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:22,920
Speaker 2: just and she was like, Okay, then my mom has

488
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:24,720
Speaker 2: to live with us. And he's like, no, I don't

489
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:26,199
Speaker 2: want that, and she's and she has, she has to

490
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,920
Speaker 2: lay down the law. She hated being first Lady by

491
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,000
Speaker 2: most by most accounts.

492
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:31,800
Speaker 3: So I don't know.

493
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 2: Look, that's between them, you know, in terms of the

494
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,840
Speaker 2: way that they conduct business. But yeah, it's not all

495
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,399
Speaker 2: that uncommon, I guess to fall into something like this,

496
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,680
Speaker 2: but it is noteworthy. I mean, I feel bad for

497
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,400
Speaker 2: her in a certain stance. It's clearly she doesn't want

498
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,439
Speaker 2: she does not want this life. She doesn't want this

499
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:44,960
Speaker 2: life at all.

500
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that has been made very abundant.

501
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:53,200
Speaker 3: Yes there, let's move on to the credit card. This.

502
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:57,440
Speaker 2: This is interesting, This is enjoyable and actually kind of fun. Okay,

503
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 2: let's go ahead and put this up there on the screen.

504
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:04,400
Speaker 2: So this all, this debate kicked off in elite circles

505
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,119
Speaker 2: after Trump floated an idea at his rallies. So what

506
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,080
Speaker 2: he said this was in September eighteenth, quote, while working

507
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 2: Americans catch up, we are going to put a temporary

508
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 2: cap on credit card interest rates.

509
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 3: Quote.

510
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:19,960
Speaker 2: We are going to cap it at around ten percent.

511
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,960
Speaker 2: We can't let them make twenty five and thirty percent.

512
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,360
Speaker 2: So this is up there with some OG twenty sixteen

513
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 2: kind of Trump populous stuff, things like everybody will have

514
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,919
Speaker 2: the best healthcare. In the more recent era, we have

515
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 2: seen three, I think proposals that really count in this regard.

516
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,879
Speaker 2: One is saying no tax on tips. That was quickly

517
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 2: a proposal also adopted by Kamala Harris. Second is arguably

518
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 2: the most consequential for the federal deficit and for the irs,

519
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,440
Speaker 2: which is that America will not tax Social Security benefits.

520
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,639
Speaker 2: Third is now this idea that you should cap credit

521
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,640
Speaker 2: card interest rates. Now the reason why it doesn't sound

522
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 2: that crazy and I actually totally agree with the policy,

523
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 2: but it would fundamentally change the entire credit card industry overnight,

524
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 2: and definitely not to my benefit as one of those

525
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 2: guys who plays of the points game. Let's put this

526
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 2: up there on the screen. So for example, Lawrence Wright,

527
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 2: of course, says quote or sorry. Laurence Summers says, a

528
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 2: cap on credit card interest rates is a far more

529
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:23,360
Speaker 2: egregious price control than anything democrats have suggested. I am

530
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 2: not enthusiastic, to put it mildly, but democratic anti gouging

531
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 2: ideas none hold prices more than a few percent away

532
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 2: from market levels. That Trump plan would, in many cases

533
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 2: constrain credit costs to be seventy percent or more away

534
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 2: from market levels. I do not understand with all of

535
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 2: his tariffs, price controls, and arbitrary tracks provisions, Candidate Trump

536
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 2: is supported by market oriented conservatives. And that is kind

537
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,879
Speaker 2: of the fun debate here is that even when Trump

538
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 2: floats this price control on credit card is that look,

539
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 2: we're all, let's all be real.

540
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:56,880
Speaker 3: Like, is this really going to pass to GOP Congress?

541
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:57,199
Speaker 5: No?

542
00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,639
Speaker 2: All right, but you know the idea I think it

543
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:01,880
Speaker 2: is It was actually a decent one, I think, didn't

544
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:02,120
Speaker 2: you say?

545
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 3: Is like Bernie Sanders AOC or.

546
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:08,680
Speaker 1: AOC they actually believe they proposed capping at fifteen percent

547
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 1: right getting to the left of their proposals.

548
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 3: Well, I mean this is the way for us to

549
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 3: explain too.

550
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 2: It's like, okay, and you know that's interesting, right, So wait,

551
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,239
Speaker 2: how could they not make any money through ten percent? Well,

552
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 2: they could, they wouldn't just make as much money as

553
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 2: they can at twenty five or thirty percent. And in fact,

554
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,159
Speaker 2: and this is the sad admission from people like me

555
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 2: who take advantage of the points game, the vast majority

556
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 2: of these points are paid for by people who are

557
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 2: terribly in debt. As in, if you look at the

558
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,400
Speaker 2: bottom line profits, and they're very open about it, American

559
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 2: Express and all these other companies, the vast, vast majority

560
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 2: of their income does not come from the two or

561
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,119
Speaker 2: the three percent processing fee. It comes from balance with

562
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,479
Speaker 2: high interest rates they're charging twenty five thirty percent. So

563
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 2: the reason and the argument from them is that the

564
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 2: way that we make credit widely available to the US

565
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,919
Speaker 2: public is by charging exorbitant and interest rates because we

566
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 2: that means that we can eat it to give Sager

567
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:06,640
Speaker 2: free flights to Europe whenever another person is doing this. Now,

568
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 2: you know, look, I can't change the system, so I'm

569
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 2: going to take advantage of it. But if it could

570
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 2: change the system, and you could cap it a ten percent,

571
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 2: that's not the worst thing in the world, because you've

572
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 2: got horrible amounts of credit card balances in debt at

573
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 2: an all time high level in twenty twenty four. People

574
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 2: are running up balances with very little financial literacy. These

575
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 2: credit card companies are also so predatory. I'm not sure

576
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 2: about you. I get offers in my email and in

577
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 2: my mail every day.

578
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 3: You've been prequalified for ten thousand dollars. What I didn't qualify?

579
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 3: I didn't apply for a damn loan.

580
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 1: When you go to shop at a store and they're

581
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: always trying to sign up to the store credit card

582
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 1: and whatever, and yeah, I mean this is like one

583
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,640
Speaker 1: of the top ways and by the way, credit card

584
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 1: debt has sword.

585
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's all the time right now, one of the top.

586
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 1: Ways that people get behind and cannot catch up.

587
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 3: If you're down thirty already, it's like, what do you

588
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 3: can do?

589
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 4: It's brutal. It's absolutely brutal.

590
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: I mean, if we both agree this is not happening,

591
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 1: but let's imagine it did.

592
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:04,880
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, the debate is fun.

593
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, debate is I mean, let's live in the theoretical reality,

594
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:13,120
Speaker 1: right I think you would have an outcome immediately where

595
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: a lot of people lost access to the you know,

596
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 1: the availability of credit card debt that they have now,

597
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,119
Speaker 1: And I do think it would be you would have

598
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,120
Speaker 1: to have some sort of transition, because I do think

599
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 1: that there would be a difficult transition period if you've

600
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,479
Speaker 1: got people who have basically, you know, relied on credit

601
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 1: cards to be able just to like live their life

602
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 1: and get groceries and you know, be able to like

603
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,360
Speaker 1: afford to if they have a flat tire or some

604
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 1: kind of car trouble or whatever. But you know, yeah,

605
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:43,959
Speaker 1: in the long run, do I think it would be

606
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: better if credit card companies were not able to gouge

607
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: consumers the way that they do now.

608
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the same way.

609
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: This is the same argument, by the way that the

610
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 1: like free market argument that's being made here by Larry

611
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 1: Summers and others. It's the same one that's used to

612
00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 1: justify payday lenders, Yes, which are some of the most

613
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: predatory exploited. It like the percentage of you know, the APR,

614
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,400
Speaker 1: the rate that you pay on that is just loan

615
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: shark stuff. I mean, it really is insane and so

616
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 1: predator and they'll yeah, but people wouldn't use it if

617
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,439
Speaker 1: they did. Any we're providing a service for you know,

618
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 1: for low income and working class consumers, et cetera, et cetera,

619
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 1: which you know, I mean, it's just a deeply dystopian

620
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 1: system debts throughout history. Not to go too deep here,

621
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,440
Speaker 1: but it's used, you know, effectively as a tool of

622
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,639
Speaker 1: like social control and compliance. It forces you if you

623
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: once you get behind, like you'll do anything to be able.

624
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 1: You'll work that second job, you'll work that third job,

625
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 1: you'll take the crap from your boss or whatever. Because

626
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 1: the alternative of bankruptcy and failure and public shame and

627
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 1: all of that is just so immense.

628
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 4: So I support it.

629
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: The The interesting thing that Larry Summers points to that,

630
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 1: you know, the one piece of that tweet that he's

631
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: right about is that you do have a lot of

632
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: quote unquote free mark conservatives who if this was.

633
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,719
Speaker 4: Floated by Commed, they would totally lose their minds.

634
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 1: But they're betting that on this, on tariffs, on any

635
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: number of those ones in particular are on immigration, they're

636
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: betting he's they're betting the only part of the Trump

637
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 1: economically and that's actually serious is extending the Tax Cutting

638
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: Jobs Act.

639
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 4: And then, by the way, they're probably right, No.

640
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 3: They're definitely right, except about tariffs.

641
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 2: That's the one thing I'll push back on this because

642
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 2: the Commerce Department does have broadly way under.

643
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 3: I forget that was sectioned something I would have to

644
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 3: go back and look.

645
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 2: But what Trump was able to do, I mean, effectively

646
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 2: imposed almost two hundred fifty billion dollars in tariffs on

647
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 2: the Chinese economy with no congressional action. That Congress was

648
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 2: definitely pissed about it. They've tried to change the law,

649
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 2: they haven't done it. On the rest of it, things

650
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 2: like not taxing Social Security. Remember this, it's literally in

651
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 2: the constitution. Anything with tax has to come through the

652
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 2: US Congress. So that tells us the idea that we

653
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 2: would not pass that a GOP Congress of each kind

654
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 2: would pass no tax on tips insane.

655
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 3: Almost certainly not going to happen.

656
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 2: And if they did, they would offset it with something

657
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 2: in terms of a way to pay for it, which

658
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 2: should probably be way.

659
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 3: Worse for people.

660
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 2: Second, there is no way in hell, deficit hawks will

661
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 2: ever vote to not tax social Security because that is.

662
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 3: Hundreds of billions of dollars.

663
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 2: Think about how many old people are in this country

664
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:25,479
Speaker 2: they get Social Security benefits, Then do the math for

665
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 2: the irs for the coffers not gonna happen again. They

666
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 2: would have to make that up, would probably very onerous

667
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 2: taxes on regular working people, and that would set up

668
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 2: a whole contrast between people who are already paying for Social

669
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 2: Security and they're not getting any tax, even though I

670
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 2: think that's pretty unfair. But then on the price control

671
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 2: thing with the credit cards, it would take an act

672
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 2: of Congress, and in fact, some of my friends who

673
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 2: work in Congress tell me one of the most the

674
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 2: piece of legislation they get lobbied on the most is

675
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 2: called like the Credit Card Fairness Act. And it doesn't

676
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 2: even cap interest rates or any of that. It injects,

677
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 2: I leave a little bit more competition into the system.

678
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 2: I'm not exactly sure, but it so dramatically threatens the

679
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 2: bottom line of Amax, Visa, and MasterCard. They will throw

680
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 2: anything at this to protect their monopoly. And that is

681
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 2: something where again, look, we have a quasi private system

682
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 2: where Visa, MasterCard and American Express not only can hold

683
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 2: retailers hostage for the processing fee that they get, they

684
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 2: have the payment network of the entire world. They process

685
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 2: like billions of dollars of transactions per second, and then

686
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 2: on top of that, with all of these reward systems

687
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 2: and like you're saying, with shops and all that, people

688
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:42,239
Speaker 2: are duped basically into financial contracts that they have no

689
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 2: understanding of. So I believe in personal responsibility and all

690
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 2: of this, but that presumes financial education. We have zero

691
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 2: financial education in America.

692
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 3: Do the math?

693
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 2: Can people do basic math on what thirty percent interest means?

694
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 2: Like you were talking about about what financing groceries are?

695
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 2: What are you actually agreeing to if you take a

696
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 2: personal loan on your American Express card?

697
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 3: Like people don't know.

698
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 2: And so when you have that power and balance the people,

699
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 2: we are supposed to advocate for the government, the consumer

700
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:11,959
Speaker 2: is supposed to be the government in this case, and

701
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 2: that's where what Trump is proposing. It's not a terrible idea,

702
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 2: but yeah, it would shrink credit a lot. But again,

703
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 2: if you believe in personal responsibility, maybe that's not the

704
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 2: worst thing in the world. People shouldn't be floating their

705
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 2: entire lives on credit cards.

706
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not like those people want to be

707
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 1: in that position.

708
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 3: Well, it's a very convenient thing.

709
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: What happens is wages have not kept up, you know,

710
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: And I'm not just talking about right now with inflation,

711
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 1: which is obviously really put a hit on people's real

712
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 1: like real earnings and what they can actually buy with

713
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 1: their dollar.

714
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 4: But I'm talking over forty years, four years where.

715
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 1: Wages have not kept up with increases in productivity, have

716
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: not kept up with key you know, the key basics

717
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: of a middle class life. I'm talking housing, I'm talking education,

718
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: I'm talking healthcare. And so instead of wages keeping up,

719
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: instead people have been pushed into this like usury economy,

720
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: where the only way that they can you know, really

721
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: make it month to month is by relying on these

722
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 1: exploitative credit card issuers. And so yeah, if you if

723
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 1: you disrupt that, I mean it is. It is a

724
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 1: gigantic disruption, There's no doubt about it. And so in

725
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: any case, again it's you know, it's interesting to think

726
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: about how this would play out. It's interesting to think of.

727
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: Of course, there's the credit card issues where.

728
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 4: Lose their minds.

729
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 1: They would move heaven and earth to make sure that

730
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: this never saw the light of day. There would be

731
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 1: plenty of Republicans and Democrats who would go along with it.

732
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: Donald Trump has shown no desire or willingness to stand

733
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 1: up to the you know, billionaire Glass or Wall Street

734
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 1: or whatever. So it's not like we actually expect this

735
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: to happen, but it is interesting him trying to sound

736
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: some of those populous notes. But going back to the

737
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: disparate reaction between when Kamala Harris proposed an anti price

738
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: gouging law which was left relatively vague.

739
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,760
Speaker 3: Which not even relatively quite meg entirely vague detail.

740
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: You know, in theory it was supposed to like, you know,

741
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 1: mirror some legislation Elizabeth Warren to put together, but the

742
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 1: details were never really firmly established. Looks to be very

743
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,320
Speaker 1: similar to legislation that already exists in something like thirty

744
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:25,720
Speaker 1: eight states across the country.

745
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 4: Like not a radical proposal whatsoever.

746
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 1: The level of freak out about that from the Trump

747
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:37,320
Speaker 1: side of the equation, including Donald Trump himself, quite different.

748
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 6: Price controls that's been tried in many times, the former

749
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 6: Soviet Union Venezuela, even in this country in the seventies

750
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,359
Speaker 6: was a disaster every time it's been tried, no matter

751
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 6: over hundreds of years, not just over hundreds of years,

752
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 6: price controls, you end up with no product, you end

753
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 6: up with massive inflation, and you end up with the

754
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,240
Speaker 6: destruction of a How is this and her only idea

755
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 6: for solving inflation is to impose Communists inspired price controls

756
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 6: which have never worked.

757
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 1: So there you have Trump himself of ag Ramaswami also

758
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: sounding similar notes, let's take a listen to that.

759
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 7: But their grand economic idea that she unveiled, the Nobel

760
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 7: prize winning plan perhaps to control price gouging in the

761
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,399
Speaker 7: grocery market with price controls. She didn't get a great

762
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 7: response to that. That was actually the first thing that

763
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,280
Speaker 7: burst the bubble of the honeymoon period that Kamala Harris

764
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 7: has been in. And so the reality is she kind

765
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 7: of learned her lesson. It's like a Pavlovian training teaching

766
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 7: her that, Okay, the more you talk about policy, the

767
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 7: dog bites back.

768
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:37,320
Speaker 4: You say, you don't want to do that anymore.

769
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,320
Speaker 1: Interesting commentary there too, because actually, if you pull the

770
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 1: American people there overwhelmingly and supported the plan. But it

771
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:44,759
Speaker 1: is true she did get some donor pushback and has

772
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 1: not talked much about it since that moment. Ben Shapiro

773
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 1: also weighed in on the Kamala price gouging proposal. He

774
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 1: could put his tweet up on the screen he says,

775
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 1: Kamala's campaign is basically joy and free money and price

776
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 1: controls and no questions if Americans vote for this. Well,

777
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 1: Mankin was right, to my sees the theory that the

778
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 1: common people know what they want and deserve to get

779
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 1: it good and hard. And again her proposal is so

780
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:12,839
Speaker 1: modest and very much non revolutionary compared to cap on

781
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 1: credit card interest rates.

782
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 4: But you know it really for.

783
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,320
Speaker 1: Me, Sager exposes the fact that it's such a damn

784
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 1: shame that Trump isn't who he said he was in

785
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, because all of these partisan hacks will go

786
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 1: along with whatever he says, like they Ben Shapiro and

787
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:33,280
Speaker 1: Vivek Ramaswami and.

788
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 4: You know, Bill Ackman whatever.

789
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,399
Speaker 1: The billionaires are behind him at this point, Like if

790
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 1: he gets behind a policy, somedly they forget all their

791
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 1: like price control bles because it is a cult of personality,

792
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 1: and the downside of the culture personality is that no

793
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 1: one dessends. And the upside of the cult of personality

794
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 1: is that you can force through things that otherwise would

795
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:57,720
Speaker 1: not be possible. But he shows zero interest in actually

796
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: effectuating most of their you know, a few exceptions that

797
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 1: I will grant you, but the overwhelming majority of the

798
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 1: populist leanings that he gave voice to in twenty sixteen,

799
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 1: that's not what is sitting on the shelf. That's not

800
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,800
Speaker 1: what's easy to get through Congress. That's not what's easy

801
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 1: to pass muster with the donor set and so buy

802
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 1: and large. These just get floated at a rally and

803
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: then just like how you're going to have great universal

804
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 1: health care, never end up actually having.

805
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,919
Speaker 2: The lesson is really about what your priority is when

806
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 2: fighting with Congress, And in twenty seventeen you just didn't fight, basically,

807
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 2: just did whatever they wanted to do, and that's how

808
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 2: you got TCJA. Now, whenever he had full authority, like

809
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 2: on something you really believed in, like tariffs, it was

810
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 2: a different story. And that's why you know on immigrations

811
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 2: a few other places where you have it's a full

812
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 2: executive authority, or in foreign policy, yeah, you should really

813
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 2: pay attention and listen because that's what you actually can do.

814
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 2: But whenever it comes to this, anything to do with tax,

815
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 2: anything to do with a capping credit card interest in

816
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 2: all that, the president basically is it's impossible to unilaterally

817
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,760
Speaker 2: act and the lobbyist and all that know that. Because listen,

818
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,240
Speaker 2: if Visa, MasterCard and all of them were really taking

819
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 2: this seriously, you would see a hell of all oh

820
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 2: yeah donations. But they're laughing all the way to the

821
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 2: bank because they know how to work the CongressI Like

822
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 2: I said, if you can't even get whatever the Credit

823
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 2: Card Fairness Act through Congress, good luck getting a ten

824
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 2: percent cap on interest rates.

825
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:20,720
Speaker 3: It would never happen.

826
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, you would have to make this the fight of

827
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 1: your for your life life.

828
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 2: By the way, it would also be like ninety percent popular.

829
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 2: I would guarantee you if you were to be like eighty.

830
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 4: Nine hugely popular. That's the you know.

831
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 1: I mean, this is the interesting thing about the American

832
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 1: public is when you ask them about these people, they're like, socialism,

833
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: let's do it.

834
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 3: But I wouldn't call that socialism.

835
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 4: There's been many print controls. Then let's do it.

836
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,879
Speaker 2: Credit card interest rates are by this is the other woo.

837
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 2: Let the free market decide. Do you know how highly

838
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 2: regulated credit card interest rates are? And about all the

839
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:54,240
Speaker 2: number of consumer protection the Bureau and the Treasury Department,

840
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 2: and the way the government subsidies and all these companies

841
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 2: get so I just cut me break whenever we're talking

842
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 2: about that.

843
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 3: All right, Let's get to our guest. Seth harp is

844
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 3: great standing.

845
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 2: By joining us now is Seth Harpy is a contributing

846
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 2: editor at Rolling Stone and is the author of the

847
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 2: forthcoming book The Fort Bragg Kartel in July of twenty

848
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:15,839
Speaker 2: twenty five.

849
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 3: We're excited to see him. Thanks for coming on the show.

850
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 5: Thanks for having me.

851
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:19,799
Speaker 3: Absolutely so.

852
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 2: The reason we booked you is not only because of

853
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,359
Speaker 2: your forthcoming book subject, but because of a graph that

854
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 2: really caught our eye. Let's put this up there on

855
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 2: the screen. A lot of perhaps counterintuitive depending on what

856
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 2: you thought about the US presence in Afghanistan, but according

857
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 2: to the Financial Times, poppy in poppy growing in Hellman Province,

858
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 2: Afghanistan has fallen ninety nine percent since the US withdrawal. So, Seth,

859
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 2: considering the title of your book, considering a lot of

860
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 2: discussion over the last twenty years about opium and the

861
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 2: US role and cultivation poppy and heroin, what do you

862
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,399
Speaker 2: make of that graph and considering what you're writing about,

863
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 2: what can you shed light on some of the background

864
00:39:58,760 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 2: of why that is?

865
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 5: Well, it's really stunning and it's only now that the

866
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 5: Taliban has been in control of Afghanistan for several years

867
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 5: that were able to fully judge what the true history

868
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 5: of the heroin trade in Afghanistan really was. In its

869
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,919
Speaker 5: significance from two thousand and one to twenty twenty one,

870
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 5: during the twenty years of US occupation, before the Taliban

871
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 5: took over and completely eradicated the country's entire poppy prop

872
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 5: it was kind of difficult to say who was responsible

873
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 5: for that drug production. But actually what the Taliban have

874
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 5: just done in twenty twenty two was an exact repeat

875
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 5: of something that they did in two thousand and one,

876
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 5: which was to eradicate all drug production from Afghanistan, poppy

877
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:52,799
Speaker 5: cultivation and the synthesis of heroin laboratories. And in the

878
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 5: process of writing the book, I learned a lot about

879
00:40:55,680 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 5: the heroin trade in Afghanistan and compiled basically of facts

880
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 5: that I think every American citizen should know about their

881
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 5: government support for international drug cartels, which actually goes back

882
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 5: to the nineteen eighties. So I'd be happy to run

883
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:13,280
Speaker 5: down or if you guys just want to ask questions

884
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:14,240
Speaker 5: in general about.

885
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:17,240
Speaker 4: The subject any us what you got.

886
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 5: Like, I said, us intervention. Excuse me. US support for

887
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 5: drug traffickers in Afghanistan goes back to the nineteen eighties

888
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 5: when the Soviet Army occupied Afghanistan, and a lot of

889
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 5: people are familiar with the so called Charlie Wilson's War,

890
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 5: the America's covert war in Afghanistan to drive out the

891
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 5: Soviet occupiers by arming and bunding certain warlords to wage

892
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 5: guerrilla war in that country against the Russians. And it's

893
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 5: also pretty well known that a lot of these people

894
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 5: were radical Islamis and that this covert program led to

895
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 5: the formation of al Qaeda and the events that led

896
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 5: to nine to eleven are contributed to it. That was

897
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 5: in the background of it. But it's less well known

898
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 5: that those same Mujahadeen as are often called, many of

899
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 5: them were deeply involved in the drug trade. This is

900
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 5: something that we don't hear much about, although it is

901
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 5: out there in the open. I think that Steve Cole,

902
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,799
Speaker 5: writing for the Washington Posts in the early nineties, was

903
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,800
Speaker 5: one of the first to describe this googleding. Heck Winzar

904
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 5: and nasieing Akrunzada were two of the biggest recipients of

905
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 5: CIA cash and arms and both of them were two

906
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 5: of the biggest narcos in Afghanistan. And once the Russians

907
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 5: had successfully been driven out, they set about transforming Afghanistan

908
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 5: essentially into the world's largest poppy plantation, because the geography

909
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 5: and climate of Afghanistan are very advantageous for the cultivation

910
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 5: of poppy, and through their brutal methods, they forced a

911
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 5: lot of Afghanistans peasantry into conditions of essentially narco serfdom

912
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 5: and allated people to plant poppy when in the past

913
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 5: they've been planting food crops or fruit. And so the

914
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 5: nineteen nineties in Afghanistan is a kind of forgotten interlude.

915
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:12,879
Speaker 5: But there was a drug war there essentially the same

916
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 5: as there was a drug war in Columbia and there

917
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 5: is one in Mexico today. And the Taliban actually emerged

918
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 5: as a reaction to the infighting between these warlords. And

919
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 5: you know, we hear a lot about the Taliban's wicked

920
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 5: ideology and their refreshion of women and how they don't

921
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 5: allow music and kites and things like that, but we

922
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 5: never hear about their anti narcotics agenda. But that was

923
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:42,240
Speaker 5: actually fundamental to their ideological identity from the very beginning.

924
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 5: The Taliban, as you might imagine, being such a conservative movement,

925
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 5: didn't look kindly upon the production of drugs or the

926
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 5: consumption of drugs either. And as I alluded to a

927
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 5: moment ago, once they had consolidated control of Afghanistan's major

928
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 5: population centers after a civil war or in the nineteen nineties,

929
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 5: they completely eradicated all of the heroin production that was

930
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 5: taking place in Afghanistan in two thousand and one, that was.

931
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 5: That eradication effort was completed in the summer of two

932
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 5: thousand and one, and some experts at the time described

933
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 5: it as the most dramatic event in the history of

934
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 5: drugs markets. They completely had the history of illegal drug markets.

935
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 5: They completely decimated the world supply of heroin, eliminated something

936
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,760
Speaker 5: like ninety five percent of heroin from the global black market.

937
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 5: That was, as I said, in the summer of two

938
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:35,879
Speaker 5: thousand and one.

939
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: That's let me pause you for one second, because I

940
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:41,800
Speaker 1: have a question about that piece that also connects with today. Yeah,

941
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 1: what sort of tactics did they use to have this

942
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 1: level of complete eradication.

943
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 5: That's a good question. As far as I can tell,

944
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 5: they just went around telling people hey, you can't do

945
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 5: that anymore. They didn't, really, they didn't don't pesticide from airplanes.

946
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:01,760
Speaker 5: They didn't use any of the be handed eradication methods

947
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 5: that the US and proxy forces or client states that

948
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 5: use in countries like Columbia for example, you know, very

949
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:12,120
Speaker 5: low tech methods using sticks to beat down the plants

950
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,400
Speaker 5: or tractors to uproot fields.

951
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:18,840
Speaker 1: And were people just afraid of the consequences of not

952
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 1: listening to the Taliban?

953
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 5: That's a good question. I'm not sure, I suppose so.

954
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:27,240
Speaker 5: I mean, the obvious answer is yes, the Talibans the

955
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 5: government has monopoly on the use of force there, and

956
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:34,399
Speaker 5: people didn't disobey when told to stop growing poppy. So sure,

957
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 5: here the consequences. But I'm not able to find very

958
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 5: many reports of violence in this latest eradication campaign. A

959
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 5: few sporadic shootings between you know, traffickers that resisted, but

960
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 5: for the most part, yeah, they seem to have just

961
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 5: asked people nicely.

962
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 1: And so when we invade Afghanistan, what is our relationship

963
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 1: to the cultivation of poppy?

964
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 5: Well, so the US invaded Afghanistan just five months after

965
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 5: they completely eradicated poppy from Afghanistan, and that invasion force

966
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 5: was led by the CIA, backed by Jasog and Delta Force,

967
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 5: and they immediately teamed up with many of the same

968
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 5: narco warlords that had taken refuge in the north of

969
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 5: the country, which was the only part of Afghanistan where

970
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 5: heroin productions was still taking place. And we called that

971
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 5: group of militias and warlords the Northern Alliance. And not

972
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 5: all of that. I don't want to say that every

973
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 5: single one of the individuals that was part of the

974
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 5: effort was involved in drug trafficking, but many of them,

975
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 5: especially the Tajik and Uzbek warlords, you know Rashi Dost them,

976
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 5: I think chief among them, were deeply involved in the

977
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 5: international heroin trade, and the CIA knew it. And when

978
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 5: they installed the new Afghan government led by Hamed Karzai,

979
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 5: one of the government's first actions was to legalize poppy cultivations,

980
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 5: the fact that went almost entirely unremarked in the American press.

981
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:03,319
Speaker 5: Within a single year, heroin production in Afghanistan was back

982
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 5: to pre Taliban highs of production. There were known narcotics

983
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:14,240
Speaker 5: traffickers in control of all of Afghanistan's major heroin producing areas,

984
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:20,319
Speaker 5: including the Helman Narangahar, Condahar, Jalalabad, all these areas where

985
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 5: either poppy was cultivated or heroin was traffick internationally, and

986
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:31,240
Speaker 5: within eight years Afghanistan was producing ten times more heroin

987
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 5: than the rest of the world combined. It was the

988
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:39,800
Speaker 5: largest drug output. It was the largest production of heroin

989
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,919
Speaker 5: or any drug in world history. I mean, I really

990
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 5: want to emphasize the scale of this heroin in Afghanistan.

991
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,840
Speaker 5: The production of it was around topped out and stayed

992
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 5: at the level of about one thousand metric tons of

993
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 5: pure heroin per year for almost fifteen to twenty years on.

994
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 5: And that's double the global demand for heroin. So they're

995
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,760
Speaker 5: producing twice as much heroin as the entire world can absorb.

996
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 5: Mexico is the second place producer, only puts out about

997
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:17,320
Speaker 5: fifty tons of heroin a year, Colombia twenty tons of heroin.

998
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 5: The only other country that's even on the map is

999
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 5: me and more and I think they produced like one

1000
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 5: or two tons.

1001
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 3: Wow.

1002
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 5: And again Afghanistan producing one thousand tons of pure heroin

1003
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 5: per year.

1004
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:30,240
Speaker 2: So seth to stick with then the title of your book,

1005
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,319
Speaker 2: what is the ren role of our own government in

1006
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 2: not only the cultivation. I know at one point we

1007
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 2: were actively wanting to create cultivation of poppy. In fact,

1008
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:44,359
Speaker 2: in preparation for the segment, I found criticism of the

1009
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 2: Taliban from the US Institute of Peace by some Afghan

1010
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,760
Speaker 2: scholar who was like, why the Taliban shutting down opium

1011
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:54,319
Speaker 2: production is bad for Afghanistan. I was like, what, I mean,

1012
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 2: this seems a little bit too naked here, So is

1013
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 2: the cynical take correct? I mean, what exactly was going

1014
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 2: on in terms of our own government, our military in

1015
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:03,360
Speaker 2: helping stoke this production.

1016
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 5: It's very hard to understand what these people were thinking

1017
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 5: in allowing this. They didn't talk about it very much

1018
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 5: during the war, and to the extent they did, it

1019
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 5: was very much in line with that article that you

1020
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 5: just referenced by the US Institute for Peace, basically implicitly saying, hey,

1021
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:24,240
Speaker 5: this is good for the economy. This is a wave REPP.

1022
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 4: Like a jobs program.

1023
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 5: Yeah exactly. Yeah. But at the same time, we always

1024
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 5: heard during the war that the Taliban were responsible for this,

1025
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 5: and that the insurgency and all the drug production were

1026
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 5: really two sides of the same coin, from our politicians,

1027
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 5: from our most prestigious and trusted institutions. In media, we

1028
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,880
Speaker 5: always heard that the Taliban were basically where narco terrorists

1029
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 5: was the term that I think was invented in the

1030
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 5: early two thousands to describe this. And anytime we heard

1031
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:56,400
Speaker 5: about the drug production that was going on in Afghanistan,

1032
00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 5: which was very much soft pedaled, very much not in

1033
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 5: the new but to the extent it was, we always

1034
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:05,920
Speaker 5: heard the Taliban were responsible. Now and looking into this,

1035
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,879
Speaker 5: I found that there's no evidence to support it at all.

1036
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 5: And I don't claim that my research skills are exhaustive,

1037
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 5: but if there's anyone out there who can find a

1038
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:21,040
Speaker 5: case of a named Taliban individual who was as are

1039
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:24,360
Speaker 5: apprehended or convicted, or it was otherwise shown for a

1040
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:27,839
Speaker 5: fact that they were producing or trafficking drugs, please get

1041
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:29,760
Speaker 5: in touch, because I wasn't able to find a single

1042
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:33,239
Speaker 5: case of that. And you know, you don't have to

1043
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 5: take my word for it, because in twenty eighteen, the

1044
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 5: Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction SIDEGARD, they put out

1045
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 5: a report, a Retrospective on Narcotics in Afghanistan. And this

1046
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:50,239
Speaker 5: is a US government publication, so you know, they kind

1047
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:53,399
Speaker 5: of couch it in delicate terms, but It's very clear

1048
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:55,960
Speaker 5: from reading that report that their conclusion that they came

1049
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 5: to was that there was never any evidence at all

1050
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,479
Speaker 5: to back up the idea that the Taliban were either

1051
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:06,439
Speaker 5: profiting from the direct participation in drug production or we're

1052
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:09,840
Speaker 5: even taxing it as we sometimes heard. The best I

1053
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 5: think you could say is that at times some groups

1054
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:18,320
Speaker 5: that were called Taliban, which is actually more diverse coalition

1055
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 5: than we realize, some of those groups at times in

1056
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 5: certain places may have levied attacked on other drug traffickers.

1057
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 5: But that's beyond that. There's no reason to think that

1058
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:34,919
Speaker 5: the Taliban participated in the drug trade. It also goes

1059
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 5: against you know there, as I mentioned before, their original

1060
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:42,239
Speaker 5: ideological identity of being a force, it was against narcotics.

1061
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 5: The Taliban would occasionally put out edicts that that bans

1062
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 5: their own fighters from using drugs or or participating at

1063
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:55,080
Speaker 5: all in the drug trade. We never gave them any

1064
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 5: credit for that, but in fact it seems to be

1065
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:01,360
Speaker 5: pretty consistent on their part now and was response.

1066
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 4: To the economic point.

1067
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:08,840
Speaker 1: Afghanistan obviously a poor country under sanctions by the US,

1068
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 1: that we also withheld a significant chunk of their central

1069
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:16,279
Speaker 1: bank reserves, you know, post after we left, there was

1070
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 1: a sort of economic free fall, at least for a

1071
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:20,800
Speaker 1: certain period of time. So what has been the economic

1072
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:24,759
Speaker 1: impact of the total eradication of poppy production when it

1073
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:26,840
Speaker 1: was so central to the agricultural economy.

1074
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 5: Well, it's hard to say. Probably not good for the

1075
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:35,120
Speaker 5: farmers that have immediately lost out on their poppy revenue

1076
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 5: that they were making. But Afghanistan has really serious economic

1077
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 5: problems as a result of the krushing international sanctions that

1078
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:46,719
Speaker 5: are on them and the fact that the US basically

1079
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:48,839
Speaker 5: just stole all the money that was in their bank

1080
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:52,800
Speaker 5: by freezing it. So Afghanistan is in the terrible economic

1081
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 5: situation right now, which makes it all more remarkable that

1082
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,280
Speaker 5: the Taliban was willing to eliminate what had been the majority,

1083
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:02,759
Speaker 5: you know, their genep. It really shows that they were

1084
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:06,799
Speaker 5: determined to eliminate this trade from Afghanistan.

1085
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think what's shocking about this is

1086
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 2: that it turns a lot of stuff on its head.

1087
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 2: Like you said, Seth, I worked in that space for

1088
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 2: a long time, covered the Pentagon during the Afghan War.

1089
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 2: We heard constantly narco terrorists that these people were involved

1090
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 2: in drug production, that they were much more drug lords

1091
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 2: and they were this, But then it's a little bit

1092
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 2: counter if all of that gets shut down the moment

1093
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:28,720
Speaker 2: that they actually take over the country, you would presume

1094
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:31,360
Speaker 2: that the inverse would happen. That when you have total

1095
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 2: control over state resources, you would ramp opium production up.

1096
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:38,319
Speaker 2: So then if they weren't producing the opium, somebody was,

1097
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 2: and somebody was profiting. I've been sure you don't want

1098
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:43,399
Speaker 2: to give away too much, but to what role can

1099
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:45,919
Speaker 2: you speak about from your own book to the deep

1100
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 2: involvement of the US military forces and perhaps not only

1101
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:52,359
Speaker 2: officially sanctioning this, but getting involved in the actual like

1102
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:54,800
Speaker 2: moving and selling of drugs.

1103
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 5: Well, that's same Sigar report that I mentioned a moment

1104
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:04,360
Speaker 5: ago is unequivocal about this. The US backed Afghan government,

1105
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:08,359
Speaker 5: at every level and at every every geographic region of

1106
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:12,840
Speaker 5: Afghanistan was either directly involved in producing drugs or was

1107
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 5: profiting from it uh in the form of bribes or taxation.

1108
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:21,320
Speaker 5: All of the major warlords who comprised the US client state,

1109
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 5: you know, under Ahmad Karzai originally and under Ashraf Ghani

1110
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:30,320
Speaker 5: later were known narcotics traffickers. You know, Fahim Khan was

1111
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:34,160
Speaker 5: Humid Karzai's defense minister. He was a big time drug trafficker.

1112
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 5: Humid Karzai's half brother, Ahmed Wali. Ahmed Wali Karzai was

1113
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:42,719
Speaker 5: the kingpin of Kandahar who had this, as they would

1114
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:45,840
Speaker 5: say in Mexico, the direcho episo over the entire helman

1115
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:49,359
Speaker 5: the ability to charge drug traffickers, the commission to move

1116
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 5: drugs through Kandahar. I mentioned Rashi Roshid DoSM Rashid Dosum

1117
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 5: a moment ago up on the border of Afghanis, Uzbekistan

1118
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:01,720
Speaker 5: and Tajikistan. He was in major drug lord. The CIA

1119
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 5: worked closely with him. Hazarat Ali and Jalalabad another big

1120
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 5: time drug trafficker controlling the drug trade from Afghanistan to India,

1121
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 5: which was sorbed a lot of the heroine during this time.

1122
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 5: And these are all people who have names, whose role

1123
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 5: is known, and the way that it was done out

1124
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:22,800
Speaker 5: in the open, it is really kind of jaw dropping.

1125
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 5: And it's not just the people at the top. It's

1126
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:28,439
Speaker 5: as the Saga report said, people at every single level

1127
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:31,360
Speaker 5: and every department of the Afghan government were directly involved

1128
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 5: in the drug trade. And if you ask any grunt

1129
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:37,200
Speaker 5: who served in Afghanistan Marine whatever. They'll tell you that

1130
00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:40,040
Speaker 5: the security forces of these people under these four lords,

1131
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:43,440
Speaker 5: they use drugs constantly and were often too stoned on

1132
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:46,719
Speaker 5: hashish or opium to even go out and patrol. So

1133
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 5: the Afghan client state was the world's biggest drug cartel,

1134
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 5: and it was directly backed at all times by JASAG,

1135
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 5: the CIA, and the whole of the US government. And

1136
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:03,320
Speaker 5: past instance is like CIA complicity in the drug trade

1137
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:07,000
Speaker 5: that we're familiar with, pale in comparison, you know, there's

1138
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:11,040
Speaker 5: the whole Dark Alliance thing. The reporter Gary Webb revealed

1139
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:14,160
Speaker 5: in the nineties that the CIA knew that the Nicaraguent

1140
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 5: contras or trafficking cocaine from Columbia through Mexico into the

1141
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:22,839
Speaker 5: United States at the time of the Crack Room. I mean,

1142
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:28,240
Speaker 5: that was significant, but there's just no comparing the scale

1143
00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:31,839
Speaker 5: of this. As I mentioned before, for twenty years, Afghanistan

1144
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:36,719
Speaker 5: innovated the entire world with extremely cheap, extremely potent, and

1145
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:42,000
Speaker 5: extremely high quality heroin. It was available everywhere, and that changed.

1146
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 5: I mean, that had a huge impact on history, an

1147
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:49,800
Speaker 5: extremely deleterious effect on the social fabric of many countries

1148
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:53,760
Speaker 5: that directly surround Afghanistan, including Iran, had a terrible heroin

1149
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:57,080
Speaker 5: quiet crisis during this time. China as well had to

1150
00:56:57,200 --> 00:57:00,879
Speaker 5: really crack down on heroin trafficking through g and Jang,

1151
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:03,400
Speaker 5: if I'm pronouncing that correctly, in the WEE or occupied

1152
00:57:03,440 --> 00:57:06,680
Speaker 5: part of the part of China. Russia suffered a terrible

1153
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:09,560
Speaker 5: heroin crisis during this time, all of Europe and of

1154
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:12,840
Speaker 5: course America, and it was all the result of having

1155
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:17,880
Speaker 5: a huge glut of very high quality and very cheap

1156
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:20,000
Speaker 5: product it was available.

1157
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:24,439
Speaker 1: That's my last question for you, is intentionally naive one.

1158
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:30,400
Speaker 1: How does this square with the US's relatively draconian anti

1159
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:31,520
Speaker 1: drug policies.

1160
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:37,760
Speaker 5: Well, when you say relatively draconian anti drug policies, I

1161
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:41,240
Speaker 5: guess you're referring to the criminal penalties that are available

1162
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 5: to punish traffickers that are caught here in the US. Well,

1163
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:46,360
Speaker 5: it just goes to show that, you know, the government

1164
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:50,520
Speaker 5: really kind of instead of fighting a drug war, it's

1165
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 5: more that they pick winners and losers in the game

1166
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 5: and say who can who is allowed to traffic drugs internationally.

1167
00:57:57,720 --> 00:57:59,919
Speaker 5: If the DA at any point had wanted to look

1168
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:04,560
Speaker 5: Afghanistan and say, you know, sometimes when they say describe

1169
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:08,160
Speaker 5: a drug trafficking organization in Mexico, Let's say and create

1170
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:10,080
Speaker 5: like an organization chart and put this guy at the

1171
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:12,400
Speaker 5: top and say these guys are as lieutenants. A lot

1172
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:15,920
Speaker 5: of that, there's there's some you know, there's some artistic

1173
00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:18,439
Speaker 5: license that goes into that these groups are not as

1174
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:20,760
Speaker 5: coherent as you might think. My point is that if

1175
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:22,840
Speaker 5: if at any point they had wanted to look at

1176
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 5: Afghanistan and describe what was going on there as a

1177
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:28,960
Speaker 5: cartel and create like an organization chart, they it easily

1178
00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:30,960
Speaker 5: could have been portrayed as you know, this is the

1179
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:35,480
Speaker 5: most uh, this is the most profitable, productive, and dangerous

1180
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:39,760
Speaker 5: drug trafficking organization in the entire world. And it's it's

1181
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:42,360
Speaker 5: inundating the United States with heroin because the heroin crisis

1182
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:46,600
Speaker 5: of the United States perfectly coincided with this time period.

1183
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:50,880
Speaker 5: And there's endless reports from the early two thousands from

1184
00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:57,440
Speaker 5: medical professionals and others, especially county sheriffs, talking about how

1185
00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:02,120
Speaker 5: they were seeing a much increased supply of heroin in

1186
00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:04,280
Speaker 5: the most remote rural counties in the United States. It's

1187
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:07,040
Speaker 5: not just the cities. The whole country was saturated by

1188
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:10,760
Speaker 5: heroin that was white, in color, high quality, high potency.

1189
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 5: Now as a caveat, the DEA says that none of

1190
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:17,200
Speaker 5: this came from Afghanistan. They say that the United States,

1191
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:20,200
Speaker 5: alone in the world, is the only country untouched by

1192
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:23,280
Speaker 5: Afghan heroin. And that's a claim that you see sometimes

1193
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:27,240
Speaker 5: repeated in mainstream media accounts during this time, and in

1194
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 5: my book I'm going to go into all the reasons

1195
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:30,960
Speaker 5: why I don't think that's true at all. I think

1196
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:33,880
Speaker 5: that that all of that supply, or the great majority

1197
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:36,320
Speaker 5: of that supply that directly caused the heroin crisis in

1198
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:39,120
Speaker 5: America was the consequence of the war in Afghanistan.

1199
00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:40,040
Speaker 3: I can't wait to read it.

1200
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:41,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that Yeah, We're going to let you now

1201
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:43,800
Speaker 1: get back to writing that book because we're now all

1202
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:45,480
Speaker 1: dying to read it and see what else you have

1203
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:47,760
Speaker 1: to say. And I hope you'll come back on when

1204
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:50,960
Speaker 1: the book is published, if not before, and explain in

1205
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 1: detail your additional findings there. Thank you so much for

1206
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:57,520
Speaker 1: joining us today though it's been eye opening, absolutely eye opening.

1207
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:00,640
Speaker 2: Thanks man, appreciate it definitely, Thanks for having me our pleasure.

1208
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:02,600
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for watching, guys, We appreciate it. If

1209
01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:05,000
Speaker 2: you can become a premium subscriber. You want that exclusive content,

1210
01:00:05,040 --> 01:00:07,920
Speaker 2: you can breakingpoints dot com. Otherwise, great Counterpoints show for

1211
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:08,800
Speaker 2: everybody tomorrow