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Speaker 1: In the eighties and nineties, Los Angeles gang culture was

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Speaker 1: much more nuanced than anyone outside of it bothered to know.

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Speaker 1: For some, gangs meant socializing, while the criminal activity of

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Speaker 1: others colored all affiliated with the same broad brush gangs

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Speaker 1: were viewed as a problem that needed a swift and

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Speaker 1: harsh solution, and it seems that simply connecting it defended

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Speaker 1: to a gang was enough to get a conviction. While

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Speaker 1: fifteen year old de Duardo Dombrica and eighteen year old

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Speaker 1: John Clennie were affiliated with LAWNDEL thirteen for the girls,

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Speaker 1: parties and camaraderie, three older LAWNDEL thirteen members, Santo Alvarez,

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Speaker 1: Lester Momlre, and Chad Landrum were in it for the

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Speaker 1: drugs and violence. On June twenty eighth, nineteen ninety seven,

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Speaker 1: Antonio Alarkan, a rival gang member, was killed in a

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Speaker 1: dry by shooting. A few days later, to escape unrelated charges,

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Speaker 1: Santo Alvarez used his knowledge of that drive by to

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Speaker 1: blame Duardo and John. A few weeks later, Alvarez, Monmore,

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Speaker 1: and Landrum committed another murder, and the police were happy

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Speaker 1: to pin Alvarez's role on a woman who knew the

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Speaker 1: deceased rather than their star witness against Eduardo and John.

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Speaker 1: With Alvarez's statement and a corrupt identification process that was

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Speaker 1: immediately recanted and protested by the witness, the two boys

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Speaker 1: were taken to trial. Chad Landrum was willing to confess

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Speaker 1: to the drive bye, but his continued violence behind bars

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Speaker 1: kept him unavailable. Despite both Alvarez and the witness's less

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Speaker 1: than willing participation to trial, the prosecutor and the detectives

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Speaker 1: were able to harp on at Duardo and John's gang

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Speaker 1: affiliation in order to send them away for life without parole.

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Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction today.

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Speaker 1: Recovering a case, it gives us a peek into the

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Speaker 1: gang world of Los Angeles in the nineteen nineties and

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Speaker 1: the way and will which the LAPD and the Prosecutor's

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Speaker 1: office dealt with that issue. We have two men that

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Speaker 1: were affected by those policies when they were just boys.

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Speaker 1: There's a third wrongfully convicted person, Susan Mellen, from a

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Speaker 1: related crime. She's not recording with us today, but their

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Speaker 1: amazing lawyer is one of the founders of Innocence Matters.

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Speaker 1: Deirdre O'Connor, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. Thank you for having

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Speaker 1: me and now our guests of honor, the two men themselves.

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Speaker 1: You know, I always say this, but it's true. I'm

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Speaker 1: sorry that you guys are here because of why you're here,

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Speaker 1: but I'm really happy to have you on Wrongful Conviction today.

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Speaker 1: So I'm going to introduce John Clenney first. John, thank

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Speaker 1: you for being here with us today on Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, And of.

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Speaker 1: Course Ed Dobrique, thank you for joining.

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Speaker 3: Us, Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: So you two guys grew up together. Can you give

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Speaker 1: us a little background there.

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Speaker 2: I've known Ed since I was about maybe fifteen. We

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Speaker 2: both grew up in Londale, California. Londeal's kind of typical

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Speaker 2: middle class city in the South Bay. You know, it

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Speaker 2: has its little areas that aren't so great, and it's

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Speaker 2: some areas are decent.

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Speaker 3: So it's about ten minutes fifteen minutes from the beach.

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Speaker 3: I think it's a nice city. It's got a good

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Speaker 3: high school.

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Speaker 1: So growing up in Lawndale, there was a gang in

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Speaker 1: your neighborhood called the Lowndale thirteen.

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Speaker 3: Well, we grew up there, and we were part of that.

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Speaker 1: So you too grew up in the gang culture of

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Speaker 1: Los Angeles in the eighties and nineties and really came

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Speaker 1: of age in the nineties. And I think it's news

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Speaker 1: to some people that the word gang and gang culture

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Speaker 1: in general is a bit more nuanced than most of

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Speaker 1: the country realized back then. You know, many of our

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Speaker 1: listeners are old enough to remember seeing news reports of

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Speaker 1: the violence associated with gangs, and that's pretty much all

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Speaker 1: anyone outside of that culture knew about it at the time.

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Speaker 1: Only negative connotations, of course, So society reacted to that

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Speaker 1: perception by electing quote unquote tough on crime politicians who

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Speaker 1: implemented these kinds of ham fisted policing tactics, which of

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Speaker 1: course had very real effects, as you can both attest

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Speaker 1: to locking people up for the sake of doing it,

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Speaker 1: but not the right people, and in too many cases

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Speaker 1: it's the wrong people, like in yours. But gang culture

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Speaker 1: was not just criminality and violence, right, It was much

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Speaker 1: more nuanced than that. Would you say that's an accurate depiction.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. Even in a single gang it may

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Speaker 2: be like, you know, some people are just families, some

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Speaker 2: people are just friends. Of course, you have a criminal

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Speaker 2: element to it, but that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone

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Speaker 2: is involved in crime. The term gang is not a

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Speaker 2: good one, but it's like when you're young and growing

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Speaker 2: up and you experience the friendship and the camaraderie, and

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Speaker 2: I mean that's kind of where you end up at,

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Speaker 2: especially if you're growing up, like in a neighborhood, you

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Speaker 2: know where gangs are there.

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Speaker 3: You know, not everybody is on the same page, not

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Speaker 3: everybody gets along. We were having fun, you know, whether

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Speaker 3: we're trying to get girls, trying to have a good time,

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Speaker 3: that's what it was. But you definitely had other guys

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Speaker 3: that their version of fun or you know, what they

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Speaker 3: would do is drugs and violence.

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Speaker 4: What I think is true for all gangs, right is

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Speaker 4: that there are little subsets inside the gangs where people

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Speaker 4: gravitate towards certain activities, you know, chasing girls, maybe scoring

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Speaker 4: some weed, that kind of thing. And there was that

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Speaker 4: kind of group, and then there were the people like Payaso,

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Speaker 4: which is Santo Alvarez, or Ghost Chad Landrum or Wicked

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Speaker 4: lester Monlore that were really wanting to make a name

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Speaker 4: for themselves. They were getting high all the time and

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Speaker 4: doing some real vicious stuff, and they were the ones

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Speaker 4: out there doing the drive bys and the kind of

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Speaker 4: gratuitous violence that everybody associates gangs with.

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Speaker 1: Did you get along with these guys?

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Speaker 2: We know them. They're all significantly older than us. I

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Speaker 2: knew Lester when I was growing up a little bit,

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Speaker 2: like just as a younger kid, but he kind of

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Speaker 2: went the drug y kind of violent route, and I

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Speaker 2: just was there for kind of like the camaraderie and

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Speaker 2: the friendships and the fun. I saw Santos on my

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Speaker 2: block a lot here and there, and my neighbor that

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Speaker 2: lived in the backhouse, I guess he got his radio stolen,

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Speaker 2: you know, out of his car in my driveway, you know,

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Speaker 2: and I always pretty much suspected Santos as being the

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Speaker 2: one that stole it.

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Speaker 1: You know. Okay, so so much for camaraderie. So this

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Speaker 1: kind of accurately paints a picture of the divide that's

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Speaker 1: at the crux of this story. And I mean by

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Speaker 1: that the larger perception of gangs in the nineties, and

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Speaker 1: then how the issue was dealt with, like I said,

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Speaker 1: in a ham fisted kind of way, by detectives like

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Speaker 1: the ones in this case. There was Sergeant Riggs, but

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Speaker 1: also Marcella Win in a related case Deirdre. Have either

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Speaker 1: of them had any other wrongful convictions that they've been tied.

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Speaker 4: To Win certainly does. She's burial offender. There's at least

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Speaker 4: five known people ob Anthony and Reggie Cole case. They

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Speaker 4: were code defendants. It was Wynn's first murder case at

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Speaker 4: South Bay Homicide.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we covered that case here on Rafel conviction and

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Speaker 1: we'll have it linked in the bio.

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Speaker 4: Then she had these two guys, Ed and John. Now

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Speaker 4: she had a tangential role in that, but had she

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Speaker 4: done the right thing, these guys would not have been

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Speaker 4: in custody. She also had the Susan Mellon case where

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Speaker 4: she relied on a non reliable person obviously unreliable, there

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Speaker 4: was no question about it. And then she had another case,

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Speaker 4: the Michelle Pulo's case, she relied on the same unreliable

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Speaker 4: witness that she used against Susan Mellon.

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Speaker 1: That is really disgusting tactic that we see over and

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Speaker 1: over again revisiting and reusing the same useful liars like

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Speaker 1: Mark Tevins did in The Bronx and Upper Manhattan and

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Speaker 1: this kid Joey Morales, who was a witness in six

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Speaker 1: different murders in each time he was out getting milk

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Speaker 1: for his mom. And Danny Ringclen, who we interviewed on

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Speaker 1: this podcast, which is still in prison three decades later

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Speaker 1: because of this fake witness, and of course Mark Tevans.

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Speaker 1: It looks like Win was cut from the same cloth.

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Speaker 5: She was a terrible detective and didn't follow the rules

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Speaker 5: at all.

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Speaker 1: Now, as far as Sergeant Riggs is concerned, you're going

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Speaker 1: to see what he does in this case in terms

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Speaker 1: of the identification process, and one can only surmise that

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Speaker 1: if he was so comfortable running rough shot over a

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Speaker 1: witness who was protesting at the identification in the courtroom

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Speaker 1: and in post conviction, Yeah, while at the identification, he's

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Speaker 1: literally going, I can't see that far. I can't do

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Speaker 1: this identification for you because I can't see. So this

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Speaker 1: guy tried to stand up and do the right thing

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Speaker 1: and was overruled and overridden and bullied by these cops.

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Speaker 1: So it's fair to say that this is something that

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Speaker 1: this particular officer had done before.

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Speaker 5: The one thing I would say, Jason, in these in

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Speaker 5: these gags cases, you know, all bets are off with

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Speaker 5: these detectives, they can do whatever they want because they

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Speaker 5: know that nobody has any sympathy. All they have to

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Speaker 5: do is say the word gang member, and the prosecutors,

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Speaker 5: the jurors, judges, everybody rallies around a conviction. So the

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Speaker 5: rules are completely different in a gang case. And that's

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Speaker 5: why you see detectives violate the rules as much as

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Speaker 5: they do because they can.

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Speaker 1: Get away with it, right. They violate the rules while

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Speaker 1: lumping every gang member in under the umbrella of quote

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Speaker 1: violent gang member, regardless of what subset of the gang

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Speaker 1: that individual identified with. And what happened in this case,

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Speaker 1: as happens unfortunately all over the country tragically, is that

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Speaker 1: you have a violent character like Santo Alvarez who conveniently

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Speaker 1: trades false information for his own freedom, and then he

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Speaker 1: and they remain free, I mean, other people like him

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Speaker 1: to commit more acts of violence while getting innocent folks

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Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted. And according to the fall information that Alvarez

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Speaker 1: eventually gave the police. This story began to unfold on

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Speaker 1: the day before the incident in question, June twenty seventh,

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven, when a few kids from around the

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Speaker 1: Lowndal thirteen neighborhood who were not in any way affiliated,

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Speaker 1: were the victims of a drive by. This was allegedly

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Speaker 1: perpetrated by members of the Lil Watts Gang. Now none

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Speaker 1: of this was ever investigated or substantiated, but this story

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Speaker 1: from Santo Alvarez was used as the alleged motive for

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Speaker 1: a retaliatory drive by the following night. But did either

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Speaker 1: of you guys even know the kids who were shot

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Speaker 1: or shot at the night before, and particularly did you

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Speaker 1: know nineteen year old Luis Madrano.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know the guy. Those guys were not associates

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Speaker 2: of Londo. They were not friends of Londo that I

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Speaker 2: know of. But somehow, I guess to maybe create a

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Speaker 2: motive for our case, they got brought into that as

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Speaker 2: being a good way to say, oh, yeah, these guys

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Speaker 2: are retaliating for this.

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Speaker 1: And what happened the following night June twenty eight, nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety seven, was that a member of the Little Watts Gang,

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Speaker 1: twenty five year old Antonio Alakhan, was at an autobody

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Speaker 1: shop and while outside using the payphone next door, out

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Speaker 1: of sight of those in the autobody shop, he was

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Speaker 1: killed by a drive by shooter. Jeju what else can

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Speaker 1: you tell us?

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Speaker 4: Allar Khan had a truck that was being worked on

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Speaker 4: over a period of time at the shop, and the

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Speaker 4: shop owner, Daniel Curiel, was at the shop that night

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Speaker 4: with a couple of other people in the shop and

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Speaker 4: Aller Khan happened to stop by, and while he was there,

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Speaker 4: I think he got a page and he wanted to

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Speaker 4: use the phone to call this woman who turned out

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Speaker 4: to be his mistress. So he was offered to use

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Speaker 4: the inside phone, but he declined and decided to go

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Speaker 4: outside because he wanted privacy. So he went out of

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Speaker 4: the shop. There's an adjacent building and there's a payphone

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Speaker 4: outside of that, and he went to the payphone to

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Speaker 4: speak with his mistress, and then suddenly a car pulled up.

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Speaker 4: Somebody got out of the car and just unloaded multiple

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Speaker 4: shots and he was killed really, probably before he had

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Speaker 4: any chance to react in any way. And then the

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Speaker 4: shooter got back in the car and the car drove off,

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Speaker 4: and as it drove off, it passed the opening of

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Speaker 4: the body shop garage door. So basically there's the storefront

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Speaker 4: on the corner adjacent to it is the body shop,

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Speaker 4: but the body shop sits in from the sidewalk so

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Speaker 4: that there's parking in front of it. So when you're

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Speaker 4: inside the body shop with the door open and looking out,

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Speaker 4: you would not have a direct line to the phone

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Speaker 4: booth because the wall of the building would be blocking it.

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Speaker 4: But once the car moved forward, they would be able

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Speaker 4: to see the car.

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Speaker 1: Pass by right, So no one actually got a good

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Speaker 1: look at the shooter, including the shop owner, who told

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Speaker 1: detectives that, but detectives cajoled him anyway into making an

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Speaker 1: id that he has never supported. Curiel even demonstrated later

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Speaker 1: at trial that he can't reliably see twenty feet in

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Speaker 1: front of him. Can you talk a bit about his

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Speaker 1: vantage point.

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Speaker 4: Curio's working on a car with his back to the street.

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Speaker 4: He hears the sound of the gunshots going off, but

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Speaker 4: he thought it was fireworks, and because of the echoing effect,

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Speaker 4: he thought it was coming from the back. So he

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Speaker 4: goes to the back and he looks out to see

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Speaker 4: what's going on back there, and that's when he realizes

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Speaker 4: it's coming from the front. And by then the car

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Speaker 4: is moving past the shop, so he would have been

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Speaker 4: I think more than twenty feet away from the car

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Speaker 4: at the time that he first observed it.

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Speaker 1: So what he and others did see was that this

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Speaker 1: was a black or dark green colored sedan and that

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Speaker 1: the front passenger had yelled some kind of gang epithet

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Speaker 1: at Alar Khan as they drove off. So this shooting

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Speaker 1: happened around eleven pm on June twenty eighth, nineteen ninety seven.

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Speaker 1: And from looking into this case, I realized that this

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Speaker 1: state has some other significance and most of our audience

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Speaker 1: will remember this like I do, because early that same night,

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Speaker 1: Mike Tyson bit Evander Holyfield's ear off during a heavyweight

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Speaker 1: championship fight. So people remember that night very very clearly.

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Speaker 1: In fact, you guys were friends. Ed was fifteen, John

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Speaker 1: was eighteen, and you were hanging out to watch the

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Speaker 1: fight together.

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Speaker 3: Is that right, Yes, sir, Yeah, on the day of

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Speaker 3: had you know, barbecue invited me.

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Speaker 2: It was actually a great night. You know, we'd never

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Speaker 2: seen something like that before, right, It was pretty memorable.

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Speaker 2: There was multiple people there, you know, cooking, eating, drinking it.

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Speaker 2: It was a good night.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that was insane. I remember calling my friends and

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Speaker 1: family just to check if they had seen it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, people called the house a few people and they're like,

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Speaker 2: what the hell happened seeing it on the news, and

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Speaker 2: you know if they didn't watch the fight, you know.

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Speaker 1: Right, they knew you were watching and called to ask

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Speaker 1: about it. You were seen on the front lawn talking

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Speaker 1: on your cordless phone by a neighbor as well, who

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Speaker 1: got home reundled. So not only the people at the party,

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Speaker 1: but also those that called you and your neighbor, they

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Speaker 1: all placed you at home at the time of the shooting,

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Speaker 1: which was about an eight to twelve minute drive away

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Speaker 1: from your home. And this shooting was alleged to be

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Speaker 1: in retaliation for the shooting of some kid you didn't

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Speaker 1: even know. Now, this case was being investigated by Sergeant DORYL.

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Speaker 3: Riggs.

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Speaker 1: Several days go by, and on July first, Santo Alvarez

287
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Speaker 1: Akapayaso got picked up for possession of a weapon and

288
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Speaker 1: a hypodermic needle by Torrence PD. And this is when

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Speaker 1: the story start.

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Speaker 2: So basically, Santos Alvarez is in jail, trying to find

291
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Speaker 2: his way out of jail, starts telling the I believe

292
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Speaker 2: it was a Torrance Police department where he was at.

293
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Speaker 2: You know, hey, I know something about a murder that happened,

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Speaker 2: and they called the Sheriff's Homicide.

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Speaker 1: Right so Torrence PD called over to La County Sheriff's

296
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Speaker 1: Homicide Department and Sergeant Riggs came to interview Santo Alvarez,

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Speaker 1: and they started asking about this dark colored car, maybe black,

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Speaker 1: perhaps green, and while distancing himself from Londeale gang activity,

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Speaker 1: he said that the only person he can think of

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Speaker 1: from Londale with a car like that was a guy

301
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Speaker 1: named Robert Caputo. And he said that he saw the

302
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Speaker 1: two of you in Kaputo's car on the day of

303
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:12,480
Speaker 1: the murder, among other things.

304
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Speaker 2: But also Santo Alvarez creates this story that he saw

305
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:23,240
Speaker 2: me the day of the murder and I was upset

306
00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,920
Speaker 2: about that shooting from the prior day of Luis Madrano

307
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Speaker 2: and that I wanted to retaliate, and then he said

308
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Speaker 2: that he saw me, like you know, a few days

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Speaker 2: later or whatever, and says that he overhears me talking

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Speaker 2: to someone else saying that I shot someone or blasted

311
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Speaker 2: that for or something like along those lines is what

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Speaker 2: he used. So with that, from my understanding, they let

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Speaker 2: him out. Then they go back to the witnesses. I

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00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,760
Speaker 2: feel they put pressure the most on probably Daniel Curriel

315
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Speaker 2: since he was a shop owner and showed him six

316
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Speaker 2: packs and coerced him and who identifying us because of

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00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:04,000
Speaker 2: what Santos said.

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Speaker 3: So you mentioned that Alva said that we were in

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00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:10,400
Speaker 3: Carpudle's car, right, but computer had turned that car in

320
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Speaker 3: or sold it. They could tell there that he was

321
00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:15,920
Speaker 3: lying about that, and that's a significant thing to lie

322
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Speaker 3: about it. You said they were in a car that

323
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Speaker 3: the guy doesn't have exactly.

324
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Speaker 1: Capudle had sold it in February nineteen ninety seven, about

325
00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,840
Speaker 1: five or six months before the shooting. Yet Riggs and

326
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Speaker 1: his partner Garcia brought a six pack photo array over

327
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Speaker 1: to Curiel with the purpose of getting him to id

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Speaker 1: YouTube as if they couldn't spot that lie about Capudo's

329
00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,800
Speaker 1: car right off the bat. This bogus photo lineup happened

330
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Speaker 1: on July tenth, I believe, before Ed's arrest, and Curiel

331
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Speaker 1: has always disputed this, but Riggs says that he identified

332
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Speaker 1: Ed as the shooter and John is the front passenger.

333
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Speaker 1: He held a gang epithet. So what really happened here?

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Speaker 2: Well, Riggs convinces him basically, look, you're never going to

335
00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:00,560
Speaker 2: have to go to court. We don't even need you

336
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,160
Speaker 2: this is just to help our case a little bit.

337
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,000
Speaker 2: We already got these guys, but in reality he was

338
00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:12,560
Speaker 2: their entire case. So he convinces Curiel to say, all right,

339
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Speaker 2: I'll sign for you today.

340
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:18,920
Speaker 3: My arrest July tenth, nineteen ninety seven, on my way

341
00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:22,119
Speaker 3: to the gym with a friend, and he noticed that

342
00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,800
Speaker 3: there was cow cars behind us, and there was three

343
00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,600
Speaker 3: of them, and then there was three coming in front

344
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,919
Speaker 3: of us. It had a bad feeling, like this is

345
00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,720
Speaker 3: not a traffic ticket. They pulled us over, pulled the

346
00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,960
Speaker 3: guns out, drive us off the car, and one of

347
00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,680
Speaker 3: my mom's friends happened to be driving by, and so

348
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:47,280
Speaker 3: she was across the street just observing. But I was

349
00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,240
Speaker 3: trying to communicate with her to call my mom. Dude.

350
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Speaker 3: I didn't want my mom not to know what happened

351
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,520
Speaker 3: to me either, you know. So I was fifteen. They

352
00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:56,000
Speaker 3: tried me as an adult, and they sent me to

353
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Speaker 3: the county jail, and I found myself in a very

354
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:04,640
Speaker 3: binding section of the ale and that was my kind

355
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:22,879
Speaker 3: of introduction to the system.

356
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Speaker 4: Three weeks after the Alercan shooting, Santo Alvarez, Lester Moanler,

357
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,040
Speaker 4: and Chad Landrum were hanging out in this house that

358
00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,159
Speaker 4: had been vacated that was referred to as the Melon

359
00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,880
Speaker 4: Patch because the family that owned it their last name

360
00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:43,080
Speaker 4: was Melon. So they break in the back. They're getting high.

361
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:47,439
Speaker 4: A homeless guy, Richard Daly, who had prior connection with

362
00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:51,080
Speaker 4: the woman who used to live there, Susan Mellon, stops by.

363
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,280
Speaker 4: They're originally partying with him, and then all of a sudden,

364
00:19:55,680 --> 00:20:00,879
Speaker 4: Chad Landrum viciously attacks Daily maxis head multiple times with

365
00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,560
Speaker 4: a hammer and kills him. And then with the help

366
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:09,879
Speaker 4: of Santo and Lester, they wrap up the body and

367
00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,840
Speaker 4: bring it to an alley in San Pedro, where they

368
00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,360
Speaker 4: set it on fire in hopes of destroying any evidence.

369
00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:19,800
Speaker 4: Said well, enable the police to connect them.

370
00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,080
Speaker 1: Right, And you all didn't find out about this until

371
00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:24,920
Speaker 1: post conviction, even though the person who prosecuted both Ed

372
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,840
Speaker 1: and John prosecuted this case as well. And we talked

373
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,800
Speaker 1: a bit about her before. But the Daily murder fell

374
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,880
Speaker 1: on Marcella Win's desk, right, All of these informants came

375
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,399
Speaker 1: to her saying it was Piasso ghost and wicked with

376
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,480
Speaker 1: the hammer right in the Melon Patch, open and shut, right,

377
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,000
Speaker 1: But that's not what happened. This person Susan Mellon ended

378
00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:48,119
Speaker 1: up getting dragged into it in Piaso's stead right instead

379
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,119
Speaker 1: of him. How did that happen?

380
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,680
Speaker 4: Well, I think initially when she takes the path of

381
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,040
Speaker 4: least resistance in all of her investigations, So when people

382
00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,359
Speaker 4: were handing up the three gang members, she was going

383
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,920
Speaker 4: to pursue that and go after them. She even submitted

384
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,199
Speaker 4: an Affi David for arrest warrants for all three of them. However,

385
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,400
Speaker 4: she doesn't want to do any heavy lifting, so there

386
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:15,359
Speaker 4: wasn't enough evidence for the DA to pursue Piasso and

387
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:19,159
Speaker 4: Wynn didn't do the investigation she needed to build a

388
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,760
Speaker 4: case against them. So at the same time that it

389
00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:25,000
Speaker 4: was becoming clear that she'd have to work to get

390
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:30,119
Speaker 4: Piasso further implicated in it, this other tweaker, June Patty,

391
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,560
Speaker 4: came along and said, Hey, I got some information on Melon.

392
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,199
Speaker 4: You can pursue her. And so Wind shifted gears and

393
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,159
Speaker 4: went after Melon. And while she was doing this, she

394
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:44,159
Speaker 4: was in communication with Riggs about Piasso's role as a

395
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 4: witness as their star witness in that case. So in

396
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,760
Speaker 4: those conversations that were never documented, the substance of that

397
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:55,440
Speaker 4: was never documented. Clearly these detectives made decisions that benefited

398
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,639
Speaker 4: both of them. So Riggs was allowed to use Piasso

399
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 4: in the Alarkan shooting, and Win was free to pursue Melon,

400
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,080
Speaker 4: another innocent person, for the Daily murder.

401
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:10,040
Speaker 1: So ultimately, Chad Landrum and Lester Monlaur were rightfully pursued,

402
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:14,200
Speaker 1: along with Susan Mellon, who was wrongfully pursued. They were

403
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,080
Speaker 1: all tried separately, and Landrum and Mellon were both convicted.

404
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 1: Monlare was acquitted, So both Monlare and Alvarez got off

405
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:26,520
Speaker 1: scott free, ready willing and able to commit even more crimes.

406
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 1: That's right, yeah, Jesus Christ. So now August fourteenth rolls

407
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,920
Speaker 1: around and John, you were arrested for the alar Khan

408
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,200
Speaker 1: drive by as the front seat passenger.

409
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a shocker obviously, but for the first

410
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,280
Speaker 2: you know, six months of going to jail. When I

411
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,480
Speaker 2: got arrested, I thought the next court date they would realize, hey,

412
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,159
Speaker 2: this guy's not supposed to be here. We're going to

413
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,800
Speaker 2: go ahead and release them, and you know, every court

414
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 2: date turned into a next court date till I finally realized, like,

415
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 2: these guys are serious, they really you know, they're really

416
00:22:58,840 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 2: trying to charge me with this.

417
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,960
Speaker 1: So now October thirtieth, nineteen ninety seven, curial was brought

418
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 1: into view a live lineup, and on the advice of

419
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,480
Speaker 1: your lawyer, John, you tried to change your appearance. So

420
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 1: even though you were innocent of this crime, this move

421
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 1: made you look not so great.

422
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,400
Speaker 2: My lawyer, Frank ta Jacomo, he tells me, you know, hey,

423
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 2: this guy, he's already seen pictures of you. They've shown

424
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 2: him your six pack or whatever. Let's kind of make

425
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 2: it a little more difficult for him to pick you out. So,

426
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,239
Speaker 2: you know, grow your hair out, shave your mustache. And

427
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,640
Speaker 2: I'm listening to the advice of my attorney, So I say,

428
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,120
Speaker 2: all right, you know, I grow my hair out, shave

429
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,639
Speaker 2: my mustache. I go to my lineup and then I'm waiting.

430
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 2: They bring me off the stage from the lineup, and

431
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 2: the deputy is like, who are you? And I'm like,

432
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 2: what do you mean you're not John Plenty?

433
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:47,119
Speaker 1: Who are you?

434
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 2: And I'm like, yes, I am, And he's like, no

435
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,679
Speaker 2: one recognizes you out there. Your lawyer doesn't recognize you,

436
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 2: the detective doesn't recognize you. You did you switch wristbands

437
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,399
Speaker 2: and I'm like, no, I didn't switch wristbands like it's me,

438
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,399
Speaker 2: you know, And I said, how does my lawyer not

439
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,880
Speaker 2: recognize me? He just saw me two weeks ago. He's

440
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 2: the one that told me to change my appearance. Little

441
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 2: did I know that was going to be used against me.

442
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 2: They used that as a sign of a consciousness of guilt.

443
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 1: So later on Curio and identifying you in the live lineup,

444
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 1: he went on to testify that he had just recognized

445
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 1: John from the photo race and in referring to Riggs, quote,

446
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,359
Speaker 1: I already knew who he was looking for. End quote.

447
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 1: Now you two are on your way to be tried together,

448
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,199
Speaker 1: and Chad Landrum has already been convicted and sentenced to

449
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 1: life without the possibility of parole. Amazingly, Landrum reached out

450
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 1: to Ed's family because he wanted to come clean about

451
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: the Alarchan drive by.

452
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 3: He wanted to testify in the case. And my Lord

453
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 3: did bring him down to our trial or it was

454
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 3: maybe a pre trial pullust or something, and they never

455
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,400
Speaker 3: got his statement. It didn't give him a chance to

456
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 3: testify or confess.

457
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:58,880
Speaker 1: From what I've read, there's a reason why he didn't

458
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,719
Speaker 1: get that chance. He was actually brought down to the courthouse.

459
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 2: What happened, Yeah, I guess he got into it or

460
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 2: something with someone. I think it was on the bus

461
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 2: or not too sure, but he ended up stabbing him

462
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,880
Speaker 2: in the courthouse tank and that was the end of that.

463
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 1: So you're one shot at getting around the false testimony

464
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 1: of Alvarez, and this protested identification just got dragged away

465
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 1: for acting out violently again stabbing another guy. And then

466
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 1: you go to trial in La County Superior Court and

467
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 1: no one brought up Landrum's involvement or went again an

468
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,439
Speaker 1: affidavit nothing. So Ed was represented by Walter Urban and

469
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,399
Speaker 1: John by Frank Dajacomo. The prosecutor was Valerie Cole, and

470
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 1: so the prosecution's theory was that Ed, John and a

471
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 1: third Londale thirteen gang member were in the dark green car.

472
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,919
Speaker 1: John was in the front passenger seat, Ed was in

473
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 1: the back seat, and Ed was the shooter. So they

474
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 1: never caught up with this alleged driver. Right, John allegedly

475
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 1: shouted an epithet about the Little Watch gang. This was

476
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,919
Speaker 1: allegedly retaliation for this other shooting. But of course this

477
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 1: entire theory came from Santo Alvarez who was deflecting the

478
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 1: blame from his own crew. What was presented by the

479
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 1: prosecution to support this wacky ass theory.

480
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:18,439
Speaker 4: The prosecution was entirely dependent on pre trial statements of

481
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 4: Santo Alvarez and the pre trial identification of Curio. At

482
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 4: the actual trial, Curio did not identify either Ed or John.

483
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 4: He specifically testified that the only reason he made the

484
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 4: pre trial identification was because he was, you know, kind

485
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 4: of pressure to and he gave the whole story about

486
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 4: how the police pointed out the pictures and said, hey,

487
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 4: this guy's bragging about it, this guy was in the

488
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,120
Speaker 4: front seat, this guy's a shooter, or all that. So

489
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,959
Speaker 4: the jurors weren't basing their verdict on what the testimony

490
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 4: in front of them. They were basing their verdict on

491
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 4: the statements made outside of their presence. Same thing with Payaso.

492
00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 4: When he gets into trial, he's like, I don't know,

493
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 4: I don't know, I don't know what I said, might

494
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 4: have said whatever. So they use the tape recording of

495
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 4: the statement that Paiasso made to Rigs and by the way,

496
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 4: they rehearsed it before they did the official tape. Right

497
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,400
Speaker 4: they talked to him off record, and then they put

498
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,120
Speaker 4: the tape on and they talked to them, and so

499
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 4: the jurors were told, hey, look it, this is a

500
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 4: gang case. Piasso doesn't want to come in here and

501
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 4: rat out his homies. So you can believe what he

502
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,360
Speaker 4: said to Riggs when he's trying to get out of custody,

503
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:35,120
Speaker 4: and Curiol, poor Curial, he's being intimidated and threatened by

504
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 4: all these gang members. So that's why he's not going

505
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,639
Speaker 4: to say it in front of you all. But he

506
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 4: looked what he said to the cops. You know, he

507
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 4: made this idea, and that was the entirety of the

508
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 4: prosecutor's case. And the other thing she did, without any

509
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 4: legitimate basis for doing so, is she made every single

510
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 4: one of the alibi witnesses look like liars and made

511
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 4: it sound like the alibi was this last minute defense

512
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 4: that defense lawyers put together at the very end, when

513
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:10,400
Speaker 4: John's mother had presented the lawyers with line by line,

514
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 4: minute by minute timeline of where everybody was, who showed up, when,

515
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 4: who left, when, the names, the phone numbers and all

516
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 4: of that the day she hired John's lawyer, So the

517
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 4: alibi was known right from the get go, but the

518
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,120
Speaker 4: jurors were misled into believing it was all some fabrication

519
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 4: by the tricky defense lawyers.

520
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: I mean, I can see how you could impeach alibi

521
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 1: witnesses as friends and loved ones, or as they did

522
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: in this case, fellow gang members and friends of lou

523
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: till thirteen. So the message is that everyone is gang

524
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 1: related and therefore lying. But your lawyer could have backed

525
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: up the alibi with phone records. It's not that complicated.

526
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 1: It but even without that support though, from what I understand,

527
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 1: the one witness that was used in this corrupt identification process, Curiel,

528
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: was adamant that he did not stand by this identification.

529
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: Did he really take off his glasses to demonstrate how

530
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: bad his vision was, because that would have been pretty powerful.

531
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: Does anyone remember that? Yeah?

532
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 2: I remember that he took off his glasses in court

533
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 2: and couldn't see anything. I mean, you could tell he

534
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 2: couldn't see anything. You know when when someone I can

535
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 2: take off my glasses and you can tell I need

536
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 2: them just by looking at me. So, I mean, it

537
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 2: was amazing, man, it was.

538
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 1: It was crazy.

539
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 3: Another thing that I remember happening with the district attorney.

540
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:28,959
Speaker 3: She said that I gave him my thumbs up.

541
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. I read about that to Curio like as if

542
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: he was helping you out.

543
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 3: And I'm curious, now she's ever used that tactic against

544
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 3: other defendants, because the whole courtroom focused on me, and

545
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 3: this is did you just give the guy a thumbs up?

546
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 3: And open court room? Now mine? He wasn't doing me

547
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 3: any favors. There was no reason, and I did not

548
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 3: give him a thumbs up. I'm looking at the jury

549
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 3: like I did not. But it was effective. Yeah, that

550
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 3: was that was dirty.

551
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 1: It sounds like they were just running the disgraceful place book.

552
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: I mean, part of Curiro's testimony was that the cops

553
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: just convinced him that they had the right guys, and

554
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: at that time, everyone believed the police right. And then

555
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: all they had to do was say gang and gang

556
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: member enough times and it's almost like Pavlov's dog. It

557
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 1: just almost a knee jerk reaction from the jury to say, okay, great,

558
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: when do I get to vote guilty. The alibis and

559
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 1: the witness protesting the identification just didn't seem to matter

560
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 1: at all.

561
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 2: You got it one hundred percent.

562
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 3: And then though that thumbs up in there if I.

563
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 4: Could jump in on that point. And in LA they

564
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 4: created this hardcore gang unit in the late eighties I

565
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 4: believe it was eighty eight or eighty nine, and the

566
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 4: whole purpose of that hardcore gang unit was like, damn,

567
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 4: it's hard to prove these cases because everybody's a liar

568
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 4: and everybody has baggage, and we don't have good witnesses.

569
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 4: We got to figure out a way. And basically what

570
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 4: they did was they created this unit where they recruited

571
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 4: all these over zealous prosecutors and say, hey, you get

572
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 4: to be the shining star here and you can make

573
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,719
Speaker 4: these cases that nobody else can make. And then they

574
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 4: gave them strategies for how to do that. How do

575
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,239
Speaker 4: what's the work around when you really can't prove your

576
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 4: case beyond a reasonable doubt, Just say gang, gang, Gang, Gang, gang,

577
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 4: as many times as you can make everything be about

578
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 4: scaring the hell out of the jurors and making them

579
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 4: think that whoever sitting in the defenden seat is the

580
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 4: worst person in the world just because they happened to

581
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 4: have affiliated with a gang for whatever reason, and regardless

582
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 4: of their level of involvement, Let's get them off the street.

583
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 4: Evidence be damned.

584
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 1: Even their use of the word homies. I mean, that's

585
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: a racist dog whistle if I ever heard one.

586
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 2: I saw the gang gang gang push by the prosecutor,

587
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 2: by the you know, by the detectives. You know, I

588
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 2: saw my lawyer not do a good job at all.

589
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 2: The combination of all those things. I felt my life

590
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 2: slipping away from.

591
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 3: Me when they read the verdict. I remember they heard,

592
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 3: you know, my family, my mom welling. I remember looking

593
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 3: up at the lights in the court room trying to not,

594
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 3: you know, let no tears come out. Man.

595
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 2: I think I probably did shed a couple tears. You know,

596
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 2: people talk about the worst moment in their life, that

597
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 2: was for sure the worst moment right there.

598
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 3: You know, I get to prison on brand new. I

599
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 3: don't know what to expect. I know that I'm surrounded

600
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 3: by a bunch of guys that are violent, angry, confrontational,

601
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 3: and so I'm navigating through that. You got to walk

602
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 3: on eggshells to be sure. And I used to work

603
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 3: out a lot because if I did end up having

604
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 3: to get into a confrontation, I wanted to be able

605
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 3: to defend myself, and so I used to work out

606
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 3: for three hours a day. In the beginning.

607
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 2: I tell people this story all the time, like my

608
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 2: kind of welcome to prison moment. I'm scared, but I'm

609
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 2: also trying not to show fear. You know, that's not

610
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 2: a good idea in prison. I'm walking on the yard

611
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 2: some guys sitting down on a curb, and as I'm walking, I'm,

612
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 2: you know, probably a foot or two away from him,

613
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 2: and a guy comes up behind him and just slices

614
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 2: his whole face open, from like his lip to his ear.

615
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 2: And just seeing that happen, like, you know, a foot

616
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 2: away from me, it was like, where the fuck am I? So,

617
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 2: like Ed said, it's just survival.

618
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: Mode, that's it.

619
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 3: As soon as I could, I started to read books,

620
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 3: and then I learned that, you know, the way the

621
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 3: criminal appeal process works is your lawyer is gonna dump

622
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 3: the case on you, and then it's going to be

623
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 3: on you to represent yourself. And that's when I started

624
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 3: to go into the library. I wouldn't go to the yard.

625
00:33:57,760 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 3: I would go to the library instead, because you go

626
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 3: me chose one of the other. And started to learn

627
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 3: the law. And then I found myself in solitary and

628
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 3: I had to try to figure out way how am

629
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,800
Speaker 3: I going to get out of solitary was? I started

630
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 3: to study solitary confinement cases and I put together a

631
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,359
Speaker 3: memorandum of law on why lawyers should come to California

632
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:27,720
Speaker 3: and challenge long term solitary confinement. And in those efforts

633
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:32,320
Speaker 3: I managed to meet Professor Jose Lobel from the University

634
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 3: of Pittsburgh. It was through his student Brett grow who's

635
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 3: now the director of the Abolitionist Law Center. They read

636
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 3: my memorandum, they researched it, and they decided to come

637
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 3: to California follow a class action, and that case settled

638
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 3: in twenty fifteen, twenty fourteen. And you know, I was

639
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 3: partly responsible for getting guys that had been in there

640
00:34:55,080 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 3: for thirty five years, twenty eight years, twenty seven years. Myself,

641
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 3: I was there for thirteen years. It is one of

642
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 3: the things that I've done in my life that I

643
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 3: still feel the rewards of because today there's people that

644
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 3: are outside and seeing the sky, seeing their family, and

645
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 3: that is due to the work that I did. Obviously,

646
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 3: I wasn't acted alone. I had there was a team

647
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 3: of lawyers. But I put in the work and it

648
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 3: paid off.

649
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: Well. You should be very proud of that, and as

650
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 1: part of that settlement, California can no longer put a

651
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 1: prisoner in solitary confinement for indeterminate periods. In Ed's case,

652
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 1: it was thirteen years with no end in sight, simply

653
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 1: based upon alleged gang membership. So now that you fought

654
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: your way out of the prison. Within the prison, let's

655
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,280
Speaker 1: get to how you guys are here speaking with us today.

656
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: So your initial appeals were denied. As far as I

657
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,240
Speaker 1: could see here, there's no real movement on this until

658
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: Landrum once again reached out to Ed's family, saying that

659
00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 1: he wanted to confess to murdering Alarcon. Right, we knew

660
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 1: this already, but I guess he hadn't ever gone on

661
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 1: the record about it and wasn't exactly easily reachable. He

662
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,280
Speaker 1: was also by this time in solitary doing life without parole.

663
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: So John, take us through this.

664
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 2: My friend told me when I got convicted, like, I'm

665
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 2: going to get you a lawyer. I don't care how

666
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,439
Speaker 2: long it takes, you know, once I can afford one,

667
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:22,800
Speaker 2: I'm going to get you one. So when this stuff

668
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 2: came up with Landrum, that's when I talked to my

669
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,320
Speaker 2: best friend and I told him, you know, now's the time,

670
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 2: you know, this guy's coming forward and confessing, like we

671
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 2: need to get a lawyer, and thank god we got

672
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 2: deir Dr.

673
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 4: John's friend reached out to me in May of twenty twelve,

674
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 4: and what had happened prior to that was Chad Landrum

675
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:48,360
Speaker 4: had written out a confession and provided it to Ed's

676
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 4: family and then Ed used it to file his own

677
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 4: habeas petition, but he didn't have any resources or a

678
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,280
Speaker 4: lawyer to help him, so it was just the paper

679
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 4: that went in and the juds just dismissed it without

680
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 4: any thoughtful analysis at all. So when John's friend reached

681
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 4: out to me, the first thing we did is we

682
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 4: scheduled a trip to Pelican Bay to meet with Chad

683
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 4: Landrum and Ed Dunbriky. Both of them were in the

684
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 4: shoe unit and they had no ability to communicate with

685
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 4: one another. My sense of it was if there was

686
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 4: merit to Chad Landrum's confession, we needed to do a

687
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,399
Speaker 4: lot more work to build it up, and so we

688
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 4: asked all kinds of details, including who else would have

689
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 4: known back in the day about Chad's role in this

690
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 4: killing and the details he had not a single note

691
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 4: in front of him reminding him about any of the

692
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 4: details of the case, and he could give me specific

693
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 4: information consistent with the police report, including the fact that

694
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 4: he got out of the car and shot alar Khan.

695
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 4: There were only two witnesses that saw that they were

696
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 4: women across the street, and they were never used in

697
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 4: the trial, so none of that was in the trial record.

698
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 4: All of the people from the auto body shop never

699
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,800
Speaker 4: saw anybody out of the car because the car doesn't

700
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 4: come into their line of sight until after the shooting

701
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 4: is done. He also knew that Alercan was shot with

702
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 4: different types of bullets. That was a fact that, although

703
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 4: it was contained in the records, would not be something

704
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 4: that some random person would have known about. So there

705
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 4: was a lot of key points in Chad Landrum's statements

706
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 4: to me that made me think that he probably was

707
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 4: telling the truth, And so I asked him to tell

708
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 4: me confirmation as to who else knew back then, and

709
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 4: he told me his brother knew, and we followed up

710
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 4: and talked to the brother, and the brother gave us

711
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 4: all kinds of information, And I also asked Chad if

712
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 4: he would take a polygraph, and he immediately agreed to,

713
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 4: but the prison wouldn't allow us to go up there,

714
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 4: and so then, you know, all of the places you

715
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 4: would go logically in an investigation like this, including contacting

716
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 4: Curiel stop by his work out of the blue, and

717
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 4: he agrees to talk to us at an eyehap as

718
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:00,919
Speaker 4: soon as he gets off of work, and he lays

719
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 4: it all out. He tells us consistent with his recantation, everything,

720
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 4: and it's all on tape, so nobody can say we

721
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 4: put words in his mouth or anything. And then we

722
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 4: did the same thing with all the alibi witnesses to

723
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 4: find out, you know, was there more that could have

724
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 4: been done to show that they were telling the truth,

725
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 4: including the logical things like phone records and other people

726
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 4: who could corroborate what they said. And it all fell

727
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,720
Speaker 4: into place, and it was like I remember talking to John.

728
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,919
Speaker 4: You know, we filed our brief in three months after investigation,

729
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 4: and we felt like, this is a no brainer. He

730
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:35,760
Speaker 4: should be out that year.

731
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,800
Speaker 1: I think that's how we all hope our system works,

732
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 1: but unfortunately that's not how it usually goes, and this

733
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 1: was no exception. So John's habeas was filed in October

734
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:50,760
Speaker 1: twenty twelve. He presented all this material, and like you said,

735
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 1: it was a no brainer. In twenty thirteen, Landram made

736
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 1: a formal confession on the record, then ed joined the

737
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 1: Havieus as well. So it seems like they're there's a

738
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 1: lot of momentum. And in an effort to further support

739
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 1: Landrum's confession, you reached out to his co defendant on

740
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 1: the Richard Daily Murder, another wrongfully convicted person, Susan Mallon Right.

741
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 4: So we went and visited her. There were some delays

742
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,320
Speaker 4: along the way because she was being represented by someone else,

743
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 4: but a year later I ended up representing her and

744
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 4: in a lot of what I needed to prove her

745
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 4: innocence overlapped with what I needed to prove for John

746
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,240
Speaker 4: and ultimately ed because there were so many witnesses in common,

747
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 4: and representing Susan gave me access to witnesses that I

748
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 4: didn't have before that.

749
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 1: So this is twenty fourteen, Landram and even Alvarez one

750
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:42,919
Speaker 1: on the record confessing to their roles in the Daily

751
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,840
Speaker 1: Murder and clearing Susan of any responsibility. And after seventeen

752
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 1: years in prison, seventeen long years, Susan's conviction was vacated

753
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: charges were dismissed, and she went on to sue Marcello

754
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 1: win and won twelve million. Good for her, So we're

755
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 1: obviously very happy for Susan. That seemed to be our

756
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:07,359
Speaker 1: system operating at the speed that it should, I mean,

757
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:11,359
Speaker 1: notwithstanding the seventeen long years wrongfully incarcerated, but for John

758
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 1: and Ed. There was a court order in November of

759
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,360
Speaker 1: twenty twelve for the DA to respond to this habeas petition.

760
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:19,280
Speaker 1: What happened, Deirdre?

761
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 4: There was one delay after another. There was transfers of

762
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 4: district attorneys and all kinds of stuff that just a

763
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 4: month turned into six month, turned into a year, turned

764
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 4: into five years. And it's hard. I can't even imagine,

765
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:42,799
Speaker 4: excuse meey, what it's like for these guys to have

766
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 4: to count on a lawyer on the outside saying, don't worry,

767
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 4: I got you back. I'm I'm going to do this,

768
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 4: you know, I'm going to get it taken care of,

769
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,439
Speaker 4: when they have been disappointed every step of the way,

770
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,360
Speaker 4: and I, you know, my experience of it is like,

771
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 4: you know, the frustration I feel on my end can't

772
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 4: even begin to compere to what these guys are going through.

773
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 1: Right. Imagine having the keys to the prison gate staring

774
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 1: you in the face for eight years before the district

775
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,839
Speaker 1: attorney or the courts even pretend to not ignore them.

776
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 1: It wasn't until twenty twenty that a judge finally made

777
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 1: a ruling that amounts to basically a brain fart of

778
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 1: a man in cognitive decline. So tell us about this judge,

779
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 1: Edmund Clark Junior, and how this thing finally turned around.

780
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 4: So it was clear we weren't going to be able

781
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 4: to force anybody's hand until we filed this supplemental brief.

782
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 4: And I mean this is this brief because of all

783
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 4: of the evidence that was developed during Susan Mellon's case

784
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:38,760
Speaker 4: was even stronger than what we had, and we had

785
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 4: a clear winner from the beginning. But it lands in

786
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 4: the hands of a judge who couldn't care less, and

787
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 4: in a heartbeat, without any hearing or anything, he denies it.

788
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 4: He characterizes it as a pro say pro per petition.

789
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 4: When I have my name all over it, it's clear

790
00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 4: I'm representing him and I had already been on the

791
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 4: and he completely distorted the history of it and made

792
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:06,799
Speaker 4: it sound like it was a brand new petition. That

793
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 4: was relitigating issues that had already been decided against John.

794
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 4: So he dismissed it and then he retired soon after that.

795
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 4: So I file two motions, one for reconsideration and one

796
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 4: for a ruling on the original petition. And either way

797
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 4: we were prepared to go to the Court of appeal.

798
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:27,359
Speaker 4: That's where we thought we were going to end up.

799
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 4: But fortunately the judge who took the other judge's place

800
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 4: really was concerned that this might be a case involving

801
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:37,360
Speaker 4: innocent people, and she told the DA you're going to

802
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 4: need to commit get yourself on paper, tell me what

803
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:42,839
Speaker 4: your position is on this case, because if these are

804
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,800
Speaker 4: innocent people, we have to deal with it. And once

805
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 4: they were forced to deal with it, then they submitted.

806
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:53,240
Speaker 4: Then they just read the document and answered the document.

807
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:55,319
Speaker 4: Back in twenty twelve, it would have been the same

808
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 4: answer they submitted. They said that based on the cumulative

809
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 4: error in the case, that the conviction should be vacated

810
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 4: and they were not going to pursue the charges. They

811
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 4: were going to recommend that it'd be dismissed. They could

812
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 4: have done that back in twenty thirteen.

813
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 1: I'm rarely at a loss for words, but this just

814
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 1: really makes my stomach turn. I mean, it's just so

815
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 1: it makes me so angry, frustrated, and just I feel

816
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:31,800
Speaker 1: a sense of deep sadness. And this didn't even happen

817
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 1: to me, But I just hate injustice. And this is

818
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 1: such a grotesque example of the system at its worst.

819
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:43,759
Speaker 1: We see it a lot on the show, but this one,

820
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 1: this one's really leaving a bitter taste. But the silver lining,

821
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 1: of course, is that you're out, even if it took

822
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 1: so much longer that it should have, and never mind

823
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 1: that it should have never even happened in the first place.

824
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 1: And John, I understand that despite it all, you have

825
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 1: somehow managed to maintain a positive outlook.

826
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:05,399
Speaker 2: Every day is a blessing for sure, you know. And

827
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,360
Speaker 2: as each day goes by, it seems so much farther

828
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:12,279
Speaker 2: away from everything that happened. But it just feels great

829
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:16,240
Speaker 2: to be out and great to be free. And words

830
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 2: can't express it or describe it. Really.

831
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I get in arrested at fifteen and

832
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 3: sent off to prison. There's a lot of things in

833
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 3: normal society that I've never experienced, you know. Just this

834
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 3: last year was the first time I took a plane ride.

835
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:36,760
Speaker 3: First time I've been to a lake, to a river,

836
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:39,280
Speaker 3: but also like the first time I had to pay bills,

837
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 3: the first time I had to keep up with appointments, responsibilities,

838
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 3: balancing school and work. What I'm finding is that it

839
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:50,320
Speaker 3: doesn't just fall into place. It doesn't and I'm working

840
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 3: through that. But there are times when I feel a

841
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 3: little bit lost out here. I really do, I really do,

842
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 3: But I'm confident and optimistic that it's going to come together.

843
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 1: And Ed, I understand that you'd like to start a nonprofit.

844
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about what you're

845
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:07,840
Speaker 1: doing now.

846
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 3: I applied for a job in Pittsburgh at a nonprofit,

847
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 3: the Abolitionist Law Center. I'm hopeful that I get the job.

848
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:17,839
Speaker 3: If I do, I'm headed out that way in order

849
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:20,800
Speaker 3: for me to work there, but also to learn about

850
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 3: nonprofits and how it runs, and with the goal of

851
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 3: creating my own. I want to call it juvenile Justice

852
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 3: for All, and the goal would be to have children

853
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:35,319
Speaker 3: treated equally and fairly, to have their parents rights respected.

854
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:37,720
Speaker 3: That a lot of times they just adopt adult laws.

855
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 3: The adult prison system doesn't help children at all. I

856
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:46,239
Speaker 3: look to filing cases in court, but also working on

857
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:50,440
Speaker 3: policy changes speaking to other nonprofits and getting them to

858
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 3: support some of these ideas. My goal is to have

859
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:58,320
Speaker 3: a uniform system in America treating children equally and fairly

860
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 3: across the board. Ed.

861
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,240
Speaker 1: You've already been able to accomplish so much from behind bars,

862
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 1: so we're going to be on the lookout for juvenile

863
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:07,800
Speaker 1: justice for all. And we'll also link to Innocence Matters,

864
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 1: the organization that Deirdre co founded, so please show them

865
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:13,799
Speaker 1: your support, and John's Instagram as well, where he'll keep

866
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 1: you up to date on the continued fight for justice.

867
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 1: In this case. The courts are still trying to deny

868
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:21,439
Speaker 1: the factual innocence claim here, but after what we've heard

869
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 1: here today, I can't see any reason for it. And

870
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:28,360
Speaker 1: with that, we're going to go to closing arguments, where

871
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 1: first of all, I thank each of you from the

872
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:34,280
Speaker 1: bottom of my heart for joining us here, and then

873
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:38,359
Speaker 1: I'm gonna kick back in my chair, shut my microphone off,

874
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 1: and leave my headphones on and just listen to anything

875
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:46,240
Speaker 1: else you feel is left to be said. Deirdre please

876
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:47,920
Speaker 1: start us off, and then we'll leave it to the

877
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 1: guys to take us off into the sunset.

878
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 4: I think that it's essential for these stories to be told,

879
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 4: and I'm so grateful that you guys give people like

880
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,399
Speaker 4: John and Ed the opportunity to tell the story said

881
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 4: they live through. I think it's important for the public

882
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 4: to understand how fallible the system is, and I wish

883
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,760
Speaker 4: it was limited to the nineties, but I represent people

884
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,800
Speaker 4: who are charged today. It's the same fight, the same struggle,

885
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 4: and we've got to get it right the first time.

886
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,239
Speaker 4: We have to want to get it right the first time,

887
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 4: because it doesn't serve anybody, even if all we care

888
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 4: about collectively as a society is the money.

889
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 3: Aspect of this.

890
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 4: We're throwing money away. We're paying for people to be

891
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 4: housed in prisons for crimes they didn't commit, and the

892
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:37,759
Speaker 4: real criminals are out there committing other crimes. So we

893
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 4: need to get it right. We need to want to

894
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 4: get it right, and we need to applaud people like

895
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 4: John and Ed who have gone through hell and back,

896
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 4: and we need to make their lives easier once they

897
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 4: get out. We need to help them in whatever way

898
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:53,800
Speaker 4: we can.

899
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 3: Well, I do appreciate this opportunity to speak about our

900
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 3: case and what we went through. I know that there's

901
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 3: a lot of other people out there that are in

902
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:06,839
Speaker 3: the same circumstances and they're in the same struggle. So

903
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 3: I do appreciate the work that you're doing, and I

904
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:12,840
Speaker 3: just I'm happy to be free, you know, I'm happy

905
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:14,880
Speaker 3: to be free. I'm looking forward to making a difference

906
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 3: out here. I think it kind of for me would

907
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 3: give my life meaning when I feel like I've lost

908
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 3: so much of it already, I'm hopeful that what's left

909
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 3: of it I can actually make a difference and my

910
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 3: experience will help other people.

911
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 2: A couple of things. I'd just like to thank you

912
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 2: Jason for what you do and Wrongful Conviction podcast Lava

913
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 2: for Good.

914
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 1: I follow all.

915
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:43,240
Speaker 2: That stuff very closely. Keep it up because it's needed.

916
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:45,360
Speaker 2: I think it helps a lot, and even if it

917
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 2: helps a little, a little is more than nothing. So

918
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 2: for me, the one thing I would tell people is

919
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:55,799
Speaker 2: never to lose hope, never to give up. That's the

920
00:49:55,920 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 2: key to everything, because I know Case I never gave

921
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:05,319
Speaker 2: up hope. I kept the fight, never got away from that.

922
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 2: If you're innocent, you better fight until you can't fight anymore.

923
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 2: Hope is all you got, That's all that's going to

924
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:13,839
Speaker 2: keep you going. Don't lose it.

925
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to

926
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Kleibern, and Kevin Wartis,

927
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 1: with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production

928
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

929
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:37,760
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,

930
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:41,759
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at

931
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On

932
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both

933
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason flam Raeful Conviction is

934
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 1: a production of Lava for Good podcast and association with

935
00:50:55,080 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one