WEBVTT - Building an Empire on Free Code 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:23.556 Pushkin. Maybe the most valuable thing that corporations create today 0:00:23.996 --> 0:00:27.996 is software. Just look at Google or Microsoft, two of 0:00:27.996 --> 0:00:30.516 the biggest companies in the history of the world, worth 0:00:30.716 --> 0:00:33.916 trillions of dollars, and they're built largely on lines of 0:00:33.956 --> 0:00:37.716 code that tell computers what to do. So maybe one 0:00:37.756 --> 0:00:40.596 of the most surprising things about the way technology works 0:00:40.636 --> 0:00:44.876 today is how much code people give away for free. 0:00:45.396 --> 0:00:49.436 In fact, most of the web runs on open source software, 0:00:49.836 --> 0:00:53.876 software that's free for anyone to use, tweak, adapt, and share. 0:00:54.356 --> 0:00:57.796 The Internet maybe the most important engine of twenty first 0:00:57.796 --> 0:01:02.516 century capitalism is built on top of this hippieish open source, 0:01:02.676 --> 0:01:09.636 free to be you and me dream. I'm Jake Goldstein, 0:01:09.716 --> 0:01:12.316 and this is what's your problem. My guest today is 0:01:12.356 --> 0:01:15.396 Matt mullen Wick. In two thousand and three, Matt co 0:01:15.516 --> 0:01:19.316 created WordPress, a piece of open source software people could 0:01:19.436 --> 0:01:22.996 use to publish blogs. Today, WordPress power is more than 0:01:23.076 --> 0:01:26.836 forty percent of all the websites in the world, hundreds 0:01:26.876 --> 0:01:30.156 of millions of sites. Matt is also the founder of 0:01:30.196 --> 0:01:33.956 a for profit company called Automatic. His problem is this, 0:01:34.716 --> 0:01:37.556 how do you build a multi billion dollar for profit 0:01:37.596 --> 0:01:42.716 company on top of software that anyone can use for free? 0:01:43.716 --> 0:01:50.636 So what's WordPress? WordPress is an open source operating system 0:01:50.756 --> 0:01:53.396 for the web. So what's that mean. It means that 0:01:54.436 --> 0:01:56.636 if you want to have a home on the web, 0:01:57.076 --> 0:02:01.236 a place that you call your own, call a website, 0:02:01.516 --> 0:02:06.916 back in my website, and WordPress can power that. And 0:02:07.276 --> 0:02:11.996 because it's open source and created by the community, it's 0:02:12.036 --> 0:02:15.436 constantly getting better, so that when you choose WordPress, you're 0:02:15.516 --> 0:02:17.396 kind of pitching your wagon to a horse that is 0:02:17.396 --> 0:02:20.436 like on a really great path, and that a lot 0:02:20.436 --> 0:02:23.076 of other people are contributing to. You know, we do 0:02:23.236 --> 0:02:25.636 major new releases of WordPress three times a year, and 0:02:25.716 --> 0:02:29.916 typically five hundred plus people work on every single release. 0:02:31.036 --> 0:02:32.676 And how many of those people are getting paid to 0:02:32.716 --> 0:02:38.956 work on the release About five so almost none almost, 0:02:39.036 --> 0:02:42.116 So hundreds of people are doing it for free because 0:02:42.156 --> 0:02:44.436 they love it, because they believe in it, because it's 0:02:44.516 --> 0:02:47.596 useful to them. So developers don't like writing the same 0:02:47.636 --> 0:02:52.236 code twice, right, So often what they'll do is, once 0:02:52.276 --> 0:02:55.916 they've solved the problem, they'll create what we usually call 0:02:55.956 --> 0:03:00.076 a library, so that the next time another developer says 0:03:00.236 --> 0:03:06.956 needs to multiply two numbers together or combine, you take 0:03:06.996 --> 0:03:09.756 an image and turn it into grayscale as an existing 0:03:09.796 --> 0:03:14.356 function or library that does that, and you put it 0:03:14.356 --> 0:03:17.996 out there and you publish it today on the internet. 0:03:18.036 --> 0:03:22.356 You might publish that on repository like GitHub, which is 0:03:22.396 --> 0:03:25.316 a place where a lot of people put open source code. 0:03:25.516 --> 0:03:28.076 But regardless of how you put it out there, if 0:03:28.116 --> 0:03:31.716 you're building something, now, a lot of what developers do 0:03:31.836 --> 0:03:36.716 is Google, So they search, they say, okay, how to 0:03:36.756 --> 0:03:41.236 turn an image to grayscale in Python, which is a 0:03:41.396 --> 0:03:44.396 name of a language, or PHP, which is another programming language. 0:03:44.716 --> 0:03:47.076 And then you'll see tutorials and you see code examples, 0:03:47.076 --> 0:03:48.476 and you see all these sorts of things, and so 0:03:48.556 --> 0:03:51.556 that becomes kind of the shared knowledge that we use 0:03:51.756 --> 0:03:58.036 to compose larger and larger things. And what's nice is that, 0:03:58.436 --> 0:04:01.116 you know, maybe the first person who had to turn 0:04:01.116 --> 0:04:04.396 an image from color to grayscale, that took them like 0:04:04.716 --> 0:04:07.436 five days to figure out, right, because you have to 0:04:08.116 --> 0:04:10.516 look at all the color codes and then figure out 0:04:10.516 --> 0:04:13.636 where that maps two on the gradient of zero to 0:04:13.716 --> 0:04:17.916 one hundred of white the black. But now I could 0:04:17.916 --> 0:04:20.836 just Google for thirty seconds, have a function, and have 0:04:20.956 --> 0:04:23.076 that and then I move on to my next problem. 0:04:23.356 --> 0:04:26.116 And so this is basically what all modern technology is 0:04:26.156 --> 0:04:29.276 built on is people sharing what they've solved already and 0:04:29.556 --> 0:04:31.436 future people being able to build on top of it. 0:04:32.356 --> 0:04:34.116 I love it. And you know, if you think of 0:04:34.156 --> 0:04:37.036 the like standing on the shoulders of giants metaphor, it's 0:04:37.076 --> 0:04:40.516 like the shoulders get higher and higher really fast this way, right, 0:04:40.516 --> 0:04:42.636 because everybody builds their little block and then puts it 0:04:42.636 --> 0:04:44.556 out there and everybody can grab the next block. I 0:04:44.596 --> 0:04:48.556 Mean a question I have is if somebody is spending 0:04:48.596 --> 0:04:50.636 five days to learn how to do this one little thing, 0:04:50.716 --> 0:04:53.516 turn a color image into gray scale, and they're working 0:04:53.556 --> 0:04:57.476 for a for profit company, Like, why would that for 0:04:57.636 --> 0:05:00.436 profit company give away the product of that five days 0:05:00.436 --> 0:05:04.316 of labor that they just paid for. Well, maybe what 0:05:04.476 --> 0:05:08.036 that company is selling is advertising and they don't really 0:05:08.076 --> 0:05:12.876 care about you know, turning images from color to gray scale. 0:05:12.916 --> 0:05:16.076 That's just something that was along the way, like a 0:05:16.196 --> 0:05:20.316 Google like like google some code or you know and 0:05:20.476 --> 0:05:26.956 scram filter. So I think that, Um, what's the motivation 0:05:27.036 --> 0:05:31.156 for people doing open source? And it's fun again one 0:05:31.316 --> 0:05:33.596 if you're a coder, by the way, it is so 0:05:33.636 --> 0:05:38.036 cool to know that code you wrote is running billions 0:05:38.036 --> 0:05:41.916 of times a day all around the world. That is 0:05:41.916 --> 0:05:44.836 like actually kind of like characters I typed on my 0:05:44.916 --> 0:05:50.076 keyboard or now being executed countless times all over the internet. Um, 0:05:50.116 --> 0:05:52.396 that's kind of fun so that I don't know, maybe 0:05:52.396 --> 0:05:53.876 there's a thrill in that. I don't know what you 0:05:53.876 --> 0:05:57.876 would call that, like the joy of a crafts persons 0:05:57.956 --> 0:06:02.236 seeing their work used. Yeah, so okay, So that's an 0:06:02.236 --> 0:06:06.316 example of a thing that should be open source. Is 0:06:06.316 --> 0:06:08.436 there any setting you can think of where it makes 0:06:08.436 --> 0:06:12.316 sense for an visual or a company, for whatever reason, 0:06:12.476 --> 0:06:16.756 to not make their software open source. Well, companies might 0:06:16.876 --> 0:06:20.876 say that this is my secret sauce reasonably, so right, 0:06:20.956 --> 0:06:24.036 Like that seems like a like a software company is 0:06:24.076 --> 0:06:27.836 in the business of selling software in some instances, yea 0:06:28.036 --> 0:06:30.116 or no? I mean, I don't know. Is it reasonable 0:06:30.116 --> 0:06:31.836 to say it's their secret saucer? Do you think it's 0:06:31.836 --> 0:06:35.436 always a bad idea? I hold no judgment for how 0:06:35.476 --> 0:06:38.036 people choose to license their code, whether they choose to 0:06:38.116 --> 0:06:42.596 make it proprietary or open. I have personally chosen to 0:06:42.596 --> 0:06:47.836 devote my life like the past, you know, twenties on 0:06:47.916 --> 0:06:51.596 the nears and however long I'm still able to produce 0:06:51.716 --> 0:06:55.556 useful code to creating open things because I want to 0:06:55.596 --> 0:07:00.116 be part of upgrading humanity. I want to be a 0:07:00.116 --> 0:07:02.636 good ancestor. I want to make it so that the 0:07:03.876 --> 0:07:09.356 generations after can benefit from the code I've read, the 0:07:09.356 --> 0:07:12.636 things I've learned, the work I've done, and build on 0:07:12.676 --> 0:07:15.996 it in a way that takes us to ever greater 0:07:16.036 --> 0:07:18.956 heights versus having to reinvent the wheel over and over again. 0:07:19.356 --> 0:07:22.236 So okay, so that's the open source piece of it. 0:07:22.316 --> 0:07:26.356 You've also built a big company that is for profit 0:07:26.396 --> 0:07:29.596 that is adjacent, right, tell me about that. Yeah, So 0:07:29.716 --> 0:07:33.996 I was having so much fun doing open source, I 0:07:34.036 --> 0:07:36.076 had a question, maybe similar to what you said earlier, 0:07:36.076 --> 0:07:40.436 which is like, how can I make a living doing this? Like, 0:07:40.756 --> 0:07:44.476 you know, I love working with people and collaborating and 0:07:44.556 --> 0:07:49.276 making this shared resource for humanity, but I still have 0:07:49.556 --> 0:07:53.596 prosaic needs. I need to pay bills. So I started 0:07:53.596 --> 0:07:54.916 to think of what could be a business around this. 0:07:55.516 --> 0:08:00.076 So I found it a company called Automatic And basically, 0:08:00.116 --> 0:08:05.596 we make add ons for WordPress. So we could sell 0:08:05.716 --> 0:08:09.596 a plugin that enhances your WordPress, but that costs extra money. 0:08:11.636 --> 0:08:14.516 We make it easy to run WordPress. So WordPress is 0:08:14.596 --> 0:08:16.996 code that you can run yourself, but we can run 0:08:17.036 --> 0:08:19.196 it for you and make it really easy. So we 0:08:19.316 --> 0:08:23.516 charge for that, and then we've expanded into other services, 0:08:23.556 --> 0:08:26.036 you know, around sort of creating more freedom on the 0:08:26.076 --> 0:08:29.876 web and trying to allow people to express themselves, something 0:08:29.916 --> 0:08:33.436 I personally get really jazzed about working on. And so 0:08:34.476 --> 0:08:39.156 we have apps for podcasting in podcast we have apps 0:08:39.196 --> 0:08:42.556 for journaling in day one, you know, for private encrypted 0:08:42.836 --> 0:08:46.916 journals for publishing, and Tumblr and WordPress. So we're kind 0:08:46.916 --> 0:08:49.436 of a little bit of a conglomerate now that makes 0:08:49.476 --> 0:08:52.076 lots of software that we hope we can fill up 0:08:52.076 --> 0:08:55.556 your home screen and more or less, how big is 0:08:55.596 --> 0:08:58.156 the business? How big is automatic at this point? Way 0:08:58.196 --> 0:09:02.316 bigger than I ever expected. Yeah, what started with me 0:09:02.356 --> 0:09:04.796 and a couple of other folks just want to get 0:09:04.796 --> 0:09:07.916 paid to work on WordPress. We're now about two thousand people. 0:09:09.196 --> 0:09:12.956 And because we had this open source background of collaborating online, 0:09:13.236 --> 0:09:15.916 we've actually been fully distributed from the very beginning. So 0:09:15.956 --> 0:09:19.356 those two thousand people are actually in ninety seven countries. 0:09:20.596 --> 0:09:24.116 You were remote forever for fifteen years, and then the 0:09:24.156 --> 0:09:27.236 pandemic cam alogue in the world, for a very unfortunate reason, 0:09:27.356 --> 0:09:31.196 sort of caught up with you. Yeah. So there's one 0:09:31.276 --> 0:09:33.956 piece of it, when I've heard you talk about it 0:09:33.996 --> 0:09:37.156 that is particularly interesting to me. You tell me if 0:09:37.156 --> 0:09:38.916 I get it wrong. But it's this basic idea that 0:09:38.956 --> 0:09:41.796 when you really get to a high level of this 0:09:42.196 --> 0:09:46.596 remote or distributed work, people are mostly working asynchronous lee 0:09:46.796 --> 0:09:49.116 so they don't have to be working at the same time. 0:09:49.596 --> 0:09:52.196 And you talk about this idea of moving from a 0:09:52.276 --> 0:09:56.236 sort of you know, synchronous conversation based work culture to 0:09:56.356 --> 0:10:01.116 an asynchronous writing based work culture, and that seems like 0:10:01.156 --> 0:10:04.196 a big hard leap to me. Like, I write for 0:10:04.236 --> 0:10:06.396 a living, I wrote a book, I wrote for newspapers, 0:10:06.436 --> 0:10:10.876 like I know how to write. But the idea of having, 0:10:11.236 --> 0:10:17.516 you know, a fundamentally writing based relationship with my colleagues 0:10:17.676 --> 0:10:22.676 rather than a fundamentally conversation synchronous conversation based relationship with 0:10:22.676 --> 0:10:26.636 my colleague seems super hard. Like that leap seems giant 0:10:26.676 --> 0:10:30.836 to me. So I'm curious how you've done it. There's 0:10:30.876 --> 0:10:34.276 so much opportunity in the world just from taking something 0:10:34.876 --> 0:10:38.396 that people take for granted and just take it off 0:10:38.396 --> 0:10:40.876 the shelf and use it exactly as it is and 0:10:41.036 --> 0:10:44.716 really breaking it down and questioning the assumptions. Yeah, I 0:10:44.756 --> 0:10:47.356 know we've done it this way for one hundred years, 0:10:48.236 --> 0:10:50.916 but what are we really trying to accomplish and is 0:10:50.956 --> 0:10:53.156 there a different way we could accomplish the same thing 0:10:53.516 --> 0:10:55.836 first principles they call that. Yeah, it's how we arrive 0:10:55.876 --> 0:10:58.996 todays synchronous work. So, by the way, this is kind 0:10:59.036 --> 0:11:01.516 of how open source works because right when there's people 0:11:01.556 --> 0:11:03.996 all over the world working on a shared code base, 0:11:04.156 --> 0:11:07.756 right the code exists on the Internet. Anyone can go 0:11:08.156 --> 0:11:10.156 see it and make a change to it or propose 0:11:10.236 --> 0:11:12.756 a change to it, and I don't need to be 0:11:12.796 --> 0:11:16.996 there while they're doing that. So I think that's so 0:11:17.116 --> 0:11:22.556 much of our particularly how we did information work kind 0:11:22.596 --> 0:11:27.476 of inherited a corporate mentality from factories and you kind 0:11:27.476 --> 0:11:29.676 of do it need everyone in the same building working 0:11:29.676 --> 0:11:32.436 on the same car to like build the car. But 0:11:32.476 --> 0:11:34.996 when I would walk through offices and just see rows 0:11:35.036 --> 0:11:38.076 and rows of people with headphones on looking at their computers, Like, 0:11:38.116 --> 0:11:39.556 why do they need to be in the same room 0:11:39.596 --> 0:11:42.036 to do this? Yes, And what is the advantage of 0:11:42.076 --> 0:11:43.836 them being in the same room. Well, there's a difference 0:11:43.876 --> 0:11:46.716 between the same room and the same time, right, Like 0:11:47.156 --> 0:11:49.076 I think I'm bought in on don't need to be 0:11:49.116 --> 0:11:52.876 in the same room, But I'm struggling to make the 0:11:52.956 --> 0:11:54.996 leap of not at the same time for a lot 0:11:55.036 --> 0:11:58.836 of complicated communication. I really like to talk to people. 0:11:58.916 --> 0:12:03.036 I could tell you're the right job. I suppose I'm 0:12:03.116 --> 0:12:05.356 not a good right Literally, my job is talking to 0:12:05.396 --> 0:12:08.916 people's syncreticy So maybe I'm the wrong person to evaluate. 0:12:09.716 --> 0:12:12.636 So let me ask you this in terms of you know, 0:12:12.716 --> 0:12:15.676 you've been doing this. You've been running a distributed company 0:12:15.676 --> 0:12:18.756 for what fifteen years now more right, for a long 0:12:18.796 --> 0:12:22.316 time time, So you know, I think you must know 0:12:22.396 --> 0:12:24.476 things that would be useful for lots of people to learn. 0:12:24.556 --> 0:12:26.556 Right now, lots of people are trying to figure out 0:12:26.596 --> 0:12:29.716 things that you've spent seventeen years figuring out, right, So 0:12:30.916 --> 0:12:33.356 is there some you know to be a little bit 0:12:33.396 --> 0:12:37.436 reductive or didactic, just things you've learned that you want 0:12:37.436 --> 0:12:39.436 to tell people who are just trying to figure out 0:12:39.516 --> 0:12:42.596 how to do distribute at work that you learned the 0:12:42.636 --> 0:12:46.756 hard way. I'll say one two things. One is a 0:12:46.836 --> 0:12:52.116 subset of the other. So the first thing is, there 0:12:52.196 --> 0:12:55.916 is so much benefit to invest in improving your writing. 0:12:58.956 --> 0:13:03.396 Clarity of written communication as a superpower will multiply everything 0:13:03.436 --> 0:13:08.796 you do. And you know written communication is and everything. Yeah, 0:13:09.596 --> 0:13:13.276 but if you can you know, read a book about writing, 0:13:13.636 --> 0:13:17.636 or edit your own writing as someone else to edit it. Whatever, 0:13:17.676 --> 0:13:20.796 the processes that improves the quality of your your written 0:13:20.836 --> 0:13:25.676 communication will pay back many fold. Just just to contextualize, 0:13:25.716 --> 0:13:29.236 I mean, presumably the ideas written communication becomes profoundly more 0:13:29.276 --> 0:13:32.916 important when you're working asynchronously, Right when you can't just 0:13:33.156 --> 0:13:35.756 have a conversation with your colleague and you have to 0:13:35.756 --> 0:13:40.956 write them a message. Yeah, the written word is really sticky. 0:13:41.236 --> 0:13:44.196 We obviously have lots of options now, and there's still 0:13:44.316 --> 0:13:51.796 something about the written word that can you know, move society. 0:13:51.996 --> 0:13:55.156 You know, it can inspire you know a thousand, build 0:13:55.276 --> 0:13:57.836 millions of people. It can you know, call people to 0:13:57.876 --> 0:14:00.196 the ocean. It can call people to work, and call people, 0:14:00.636 --> 0:14:03.276 you know, make them imagine a world beyond and live 0:14:03.276 --> 0:14:05.196 their life in a totally different way just words on 0:14:05.236 --> 0:14:10.196 a page. And yet I find the hardest written communications 0:14:10.196 --> 0:14:12.116 for me in a work context. The place where I 0:14:12.196 --> 0:14:16.956 most want to have a synchronous conversation is where there 0:14:16.956 --> 0:14:20.036 emotional issues at play, when somebody's mad at somebody else 0:14:20.316 --> 0:14:22.756 and I'm trying to figure out what's going on. Like, 0:14:22.956 --> 0:14:28.756 That's when I really want a synchronous conversation because the 0:14:28.836 --> 0:14:33.356 tone and the subtext is what I find hardest to 0:14:33.396 --> 0:14:38.556 get in written communication, the sort of emotional subtext and 0:14:38.636 --> 0:14:41.556 like power dynamics, those are the things that I find 0:14:41.636 --> 0:14:47.756 really hard in writing at work totally. Yeah. So, yeah, 0:14:47.796 --> 0:14:49.676 that's a that's a good time to talk to someone. 0:14:49.796 --> 0:14:53.596 I'm gonna I'm not gonna argue against that, and it 0:14:53.596 --> 0:14:58.196 could be very valuable to see. You know. One thing 0:14:58.236 --> 0:15:00.756 that's common for us is if we find we're typing 0:15:00.756 --> 0:15:04.716 to each other a lot and you know, just getting 0:15:04.756 --> 0:15:06.556 more and more worked up, it's a good time to 0:15:06.556 --> 0:15:08.996 pick up the phone. Yeah. But writing is just a 0:15:09.196 --> 0:15:15.756 upset of communication, and fundamentally, all all human problems are 0:15:16.076 --> 0:15:20.116 are usually a function of communication. Yeah, right, the myth 0:15:20.156 --> 0:15:23.636 of separation, this idea that we're not all connected, and 0:15:24.796 --> 0:15:27.316 failures of communication are I think the source of all 0:15:27.396 --> 0:15:35.916 human suffering. After the break, how Automatic competes against giant 0:15:36.036 --> 0:15:40.516 for profit companies that also build on WordPress and Matt's 0:15:40.556 --> 0:15:44.076 plans for Tumblr, the old social media platform that Automatic 0:15:44.116 --> 0:15:54.276 bought back in twenty nineteen. That's the end of the ads. 0:15:54.716 --> 0:15:57.476 Now we're going back to the show. So I'm curious. 0:15:57.556 --> 0:15:59.716 I find it interesting in general to talk to people 0:15:59.756 --> 0:16:02.156 about things they haven't figured out yet, the things they're 0:16:02.156 --> 0:16:05.796 working on now but don't quite know. I'll say our 0:16:05.876 --> 0:16:08.836 big problem. Yeah, you know, we talked a lot about 0:16:08.836 --> 0:16:13.796 open source and the fun of contributing now, and you 0:16:13.836 --> 0:16:16.116 said companies might not want to do that because they 0:16:16.156 --> 0:16:19.236 want to keep their secret sauce or something. There's another 0:16:19.316 --> 0:16:24.196 problem that happens, so open source can fail when it's 0:16:24.236 --> 0:16:31.676 successful through something called a free rider problem. So imagine 0:16:32.156 --> 0:16:34.956 if people got a lot of benefit from this open 0:16:34.996 --> 0:16:39.636 source code, but they didn't improve it, they didn't give 0:16:39.636 --> 0:16:43.516 back their improvements, and then the people who were working 0:16:43.516 --> 0:16:47.156 on improving it, you know, didn't get any of the 0:16:47.236 --> 0:16:49.316 benefit or money from it, and so they eventually just 0:16:49.356 --> 0:16:51.956 gave up and worked on other things. Then that sort 0:16:51.956 --> 0:16:54.876 of core would die. So I would say the big 0:16:54.916 --> 0:17:00.676 problem of open source is how to close the loop 0:17:00.716 --> 0:17:05.556 of people using it and contributing to it. So in WordPress, 0:17:05.596 --> 0:17:10.676 for example, you can get WordPress from my automatic at 0:17:10.676 --> 0:17:14.596 WordPress dot com. You could also get it from go Daddy, 0:17:15.316 --> 0:17:19.916 or from blue host, or from Amazon or Google or 0:17:20.036 --> 0:17:22.676 a lot of other places. And these companies will take 0:17:22.716 --> 0:17:24.836 your money, but they won't put any of that back 0:17:24.876 --> 0:17:28.596 into developing WordPress and just To be clear, GoDaddy is 0:17:28.716 --> 0:17:33.036 using WordPress. They're taking the WordPress software that is created 0:17:33.076 --> 0:17:36.196 by everyone in the world all the time, and they're 0:17:36.316 --> 0:17:39.436 using it because it's open source and they can. But 0:17:39.476 --> 0:17:42.676 they're not sort of part of this open source community. 0:17:42.716 --> 0:17:44.796 They're just taking the software and selling it to me, 0:17:45.476 --> 0:17:50.796 which is totally fine, allowed by the license, by the community, 0:17:50.796 --> 0:17:53.436 by everything, and they're not breaking the rules. But but 0:17:53.556 --> 0:17:56.796 so why is it a problem? What's the problem? I 0:17:56.836 --> 0:18:00.556 guess another way they framed a problem would be that 0:18:00.676 --> 0:18:08.316 the companies who are only motivated by profits, yeah, could 0:18:08.516 --> 0:18:18.196 out come peat the companies that also can shibute back, right, Like, 0:18:18.276 --> 0:18:20.716 at some point they could outcompete automatic. And so you've 0:18:20.716 --> 0:18:23.876 built this thing and you are dedicating your life to 0:18:23.916 --> 0:18:26.956 the open weab and open source, but they might I 0:18:26.956 --> 0:18:30.476 don't know, execute better, be better capitalized and put you 0:18:30.516 --> 0:18:33.876 out of business and sort of shut down the openness. 0:18:35.116 --> 0:18:37.956 But one example is like by taking some of those 0:18:37.956 --> 0:18:41.796 profits and investing in advertising, so now of a sudden, 0:18:41.796 --> 0:18:45.476 they're buying Super Bowl commercials or buying ads on Google, 0:18:45.556 --> 0:18:47.956 so that when you search for WordPress, you know, the 0:18:47.996 --> 0:18:51.036 first four or five results aren't like actually the community, 0:18:51.316 --> 0:18:53.756 they're so in paying to be at the top, and 0:18:53.836 --> 0:18:58.156 so capital that gets capital that is happening, right, Like 0:18:58.236 --> 0:19:01.396 go Toady had a Super Bowl ad. Yeah, so what 0:19:01.476 --> 0:19:04.596 do you do about that? Well, I thought I could 0:19:04.596 --> 0:19:06.636 go on podcasts and tell people about it and that 0:19:06.716 --> 0:19:09.676 might help. Here we are, it's about a Super Bowl 0:19:09.676 --> 0:19:13.116 at but it's what I got. Well, I think that 0:19:13.796 --> 0:19:17.516 I think that people really care. So if they knew 0:19:18.756 --> 0:19:21.956 about the philosophy and the community and kind of what 0:19:21.996 --> 0:19:24.916 we're trying to create over the long term, that we're 0:19:24.916 --> 0:19:26.756 trying to build software that's going to be around in 0:19:26.796 --> 0:19:29.436 one hundred years, people would be excited to be a 0:19:29.436 --> 0:19:34.196 part of that. And luckily, money can't buy love, right, 0:19:34.236 --> 0:19:40.196 So there's forces in the universe and even in capitalism 0:19:40.316 --> 0:19:44.676 far far stronger than dollars. And so essentially what we're 0:19:44.716 --> 0:19:47.276 betting on is that those forces win in the long term. 0:19:47.756 --> 0:19:50.076 But we also have to do a good job at 0:19:50.076 --> 0:19:53.396 telling our story, at being out there, at sort of 0:19:53.436 --> 0:19:55.596 making it easy for people who contribute and get involved. 0:19:55.916 --> 0:19:58.196 If we don't do a good job there, WordPress will 0:19:58.196 --> 0:20:00.036 fail and it will die and it will just be 0:20:00.596 --> 0:20:03.436 you know, one of the thousands of open source projects 0:20:03.436 --> 0:20:05.996 that have withered on the vine and died. But if 0:20:05.996 --> 0:20:09.516 we get this right, it could be something that, you know, 0:20:09.756 --> 0:20:11.716 a thousand years from now, they were running WordPress on 0:20:11.796 --> 0:20:16.956 Mars or in other galaxies. That is good, big that's 0:20:16.996 --> 0:20:20.316 a good big frame a word press in another galaxy, 0:20:20.516 --> 0:20:22.996 like not even another solar system. Just go all the way. 0:20:25.476 --> 0:20:29.556 Let's talk briefly about Tumbler. How's Tumbler going? You bought it. 0:20:30.156 --> 0:20:34.236 I downloaded it for this conversation. I don't quite get it, Like, 0:20:34.316 --> 0:20:36.996 can you help me get it? Help me love Tumbler. 0:20:38.876 --> 0:20:43.436 Tumbler is a blogging system. It's a social network. It 0:20:43.476 --> 0:20:45.396 was one of the original ones. It was quite good 0:20:45.796 --> 0:20:50.196 under after it got bought for a billion dollars by 0:20:50.236 --> 0:20:54.676 Yahoo in like twenty twelve, it was kind of mismanaged 0:20:54.916 --> 0:20:58.636 and withered a bit on the vine. We bought it 0:20:58.676 --> 0:21:01.796 to revive it, and part of why we bought it 0:21:01.836 --> 0:21:05.276 was it turned out the kids are still there. So 0:21:05.876 --> 0:21:10.036 Tumbler's primary demographic is thirteen to twenty four. So I 0:21:10.076 --> 0:21:13.316 think always youth has wanted a place where their parents weren't, 0:21:13.916 --> 0:21:18.396 someplace that was maybe a little even harder to figure 0:21:18.396 --> 0:21:20.676 out it, kind of like Snap was in their early days. 0:21:20.676 --> 0:21:22.516 So like not supposed to get it. The fact that 0:21:22.556 --> 0:21:24.396 I don't get it as a feature not a bug. 0:21:24.476 --> 0:21:27.396 I'd buy that. Well. I would say that the fact 0:21:27.396 --> 0:21:30.116 that you don't get it right now is probably why 0:21:30.596 --> 0:21:36.156 kids love it, ye or younger folks really like having 0:21:36.196 --> 0:21:41.236 their own space. So essentially, by anchoring Tumbler on art 0:21:41.316 --> 0:21:43.356 and artists, which was always kind of the core of it, 0:21:43.436 --> 0:21:47.916 like people sharing their creativity, we're creating like a third space, 0:21:48.796 --> 0:21:51.556 like a place that's not like you need to be 0:21:51.556 --> 0:21:54.636 professional like LinkedIn, or be fancy like Instagram, but someplace 0:21:54.676 --> 0:21:57.596 you can just go like, be weird, be creative, be yourself. 0:21:59.076 --> 0:22:01.396 And it turns out the Internet wants that and needs 0:22:01.396 --> 0:22:07.156 it now. Our challenge is running a social network is 0:22:07.196 --> 0:22:13.356 both technically and shistically very difficult to make the algorithms 0:22:13.396 --> 0:22:16.476 that show people what they want but don't inflame things, 0:22:16.676 --> 0:22:20.676 to garden and curate the community so that it has 0:22:20.716 --> 0:22:23.596 positive interactions but not like hate speech or violence or 0:22:23.636 --> 0:22:27.916 anything like that. Is you know, you'll never here recriticize 0:22:27.956 --> 0:22:31.396 Facebook for that because it is a really really hard 0:22:31.396 --> 0:22:33.716 problem to do. Its scale. Tell me, so, you know, 0:22:34.956 --> 0:22:37.716 tell me about the well, I assume I saw what 0:22:37.756 --> 0:22:41.956 you said before that Tumbler is open source, I mean 0:22:42.116 --> 0:22:46.596 sort of fitting into your broader galactic worldview, and what 0:22:46.636 --> 0:22:48.476 does that mean? Right, So what does it mean to 0:22:48.516 --> 0:22:51.276 have an open source social network and in what important 0:22:51.316 --> 0:22:54.796 ways is it different from other big social networks along 0:22:54.876 --> 0:22:59.396 that time? Tumbler was and is proprietary software when we 0:22:59.476 --> 0:23:01.916 bought it. But what we're doing is we're actually switching 0:23:01.916 --> 0:23:05.356 it to WordPress. So one of the projects, and it's 0:23:05.396 --> 0:23:09.316 going to take years because it's it's big, is over 0:23:09.396 --> 0:23:11.956 half a million blogs on Tumblr that we've got to 0:23:11.996 --> 0:23:13.916 migrate over. So it's just a lot of data, a 0:23:13.916 --> 0:23:17.036 lot of things support, but we're actually switching those all 0:23:17.036 --> 0:23:19.316 to be power my WordPress underneath, and so those will 0:23:19.356 --> 0:23:21.836 all be part of the open web as we do it. 0:23:22.036 --> 0:23:26.316 So like in terms of whatever algorithms there are that 0:23:26.396 --> 0:23:30.596 you know shows you content or serves you ads, like, 0:23:30.876 --> 0:23:35.956 are those open or it will be Yeah, So that's 0:23:36.316 --> 0:23:38.756 that's what that's what we're grading. We're relutely building that 0:23:38.876 --> 0:23:41.596 right now. So you'll be able to see like why 0:23:41.676 --> 0:23:44.396 am I getting served these certain things. You'll be able 0:23:44.436 --> 0:23:47.996 to see exactly the code that's choosing which posts they're 0:23:48.036 --> 0:23:51.036 served at the top for you and you'll be able 0:23:51.076 --> 0:23:54.396 to choose other algorithms if you want, maybe create your 0:23:54.436 --> 0:23:57.316 own and put it up there. That feels big and 0:23:57.356 --> 0:23:59.756 exciting to me? Is it? And if so, why we'll 0:23:59.796 --> 0:24:04.716 see you know. I mean, honestly, this hasn't been done before. 0:24:04.876 --> 0:24:10.076 It's kind of new in society. But fundamentally, I want 0:24:10.076 --> 0:24:14.476 people to have freedom and autonomy. And right now you 0:24:14.716 --> 0:24:20.476 you know, you get whatever algorithm TikTok, Facebook, Instagram decide 0:24:20.516 --> 0:24:23.596 to serve you, and that aligns with your interests to 0:24:23.636 --> 0:24:25.956 an extent. It also aligns with their interests to an extent. 0:24:26.596 --> 0:24:28.796 Like what will happen if we allow people to have 0:24:28.876 --> 0:24:33.836 complete autonomy and choice there? Maybe it fails because people 0:24:33.916 --> 0:24:37.476 say they just want to you know, see MPR New 0:24:37.516 --> 0:24:41.796 Yorker articles. But you know, when TikTok serves them, you know, 0:24:41.876 --> 0:24:45.876 the more like carbohydrates of information or entertainment, that's what 0:24:45.876 --> 0:24:48.556 they actually choose. So they say they want to eat healthy, 0:24:48.596 --> 0:24:51.156