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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and

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Speaker 1: we're back with part two of our talk about post

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Speaker 1: biological intelligence. Now, in the last episode, we talked about

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Speaker 1: let's see, we talked about some work by the SETI

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Speaker 1: researcher Seth show Stack, and we talked about the philosopher

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Speaker 1: Susan Schneider, who had both written about UH the idea

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Speaker 1: of looking for signs of alien intelligence elsewhere in the

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Speaker 1: Milky Way, and UH the the proposition that if we

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Speaker 1: were to encounter such an intelligence, it would probably be

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Speaker 1: more likely the machine descendants of a previous biological intelligence

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Speaker 1: than it would be biological entities themselves. That that overtime,

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Speaker 1: organisms like us will tend to sort of turn themselves

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Speaker 1: into machines, or at least create a techno culture that's

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Speaker 1: dominated by machines, and that these are the types of

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Speaker 1: intelligences that we should really be looking for and trying

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Speaker 1: to predict in terms of their characteristics and things like that.

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Speaker 1: So we can jump right back into the middle of

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Speaker 1: this conversation where we left off last time with talking

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Speaker 1: about post biological intelligence. Now another big question here and

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Speaker 1: and this will we'll go back to Schneider. Is it

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Speaker 1: is that the question of would a machine culture like

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Speaker 1: this if you encountered it, would this machine artificial intelligence?

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Speaker 1: Would it be conscious? And what would that mean? And

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Speaker 1: would it make a difference even, Yeah, this is a

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Speaker 1: really good question. The way she puts it is would

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Speaker 1: the processing of a silicon based super intelligent system feel

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Speaker 1: a certain way from the inside. Now, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: go into less detail on this argument than than I

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Speaker 1: did on the other half of her argument, but I

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Speaker 1: did want to try to give a few highlights. This

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Speaker 1: question is inherently difficult to answer because, according to some philosophers,

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Speaker 1: you know, some people would say that this question is

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Speaker 1: impossible to answer because there is no way to test

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Speaker 1: for consciousness beyond our first our own first person experience.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we can't even test to see if other

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Speaker 1: people are conscious. We just assume they are. It seems

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Speaker 1: like they are, they claim to be, and there's no

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Speaker 1: reason to assume they're not. But of course you have

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Speaker 1: ideas like the philosopher David Chalmers, you know, he famously

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Speaker 1: framed this idea of the easy problems versus the hard

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Speaker 1: problems of consciousness, and so the easy problems that they're

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Speaker 1: not actually easy, but they are, they're in principle solvable.

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Speaker 1: There are things like what parts of the brain are

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Speaker 1: necessary in order to generate conscious experience, Like you could,

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Speaker 1: you know, you could do research on that and have

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Speaker 1: people report back when different parts of the brain are

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Speaker 1: disabled or something. You know, you can figure out things

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Speaker 1: like that, but it's much more difficult to or Chalmers

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Speaker 1: would argue, ultimately impossible to get to the bottom of

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Speaker 1: the question why does all this information processing in the

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Speaker 1: human brain under certain conditions have a felt quality to it?

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Speaker 1: Like why is their consciousness in the first place? And

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Speaker 1: if we do not know, or possibly even cannot know,

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Speaker 1: why we possess a felt subjective experience, how could we

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Speaker 1: ever reason backwards to know if alien machines would also

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Speaker 1: possess it? Now, Schneider responds to all this thinking, and

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Speaker 1: I'm oversimplifying here, but her main point is that the

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Speaker 1: activity of the brain is, according to her argument, primarily

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Speaker 1: computational and in the absence of compelling evidence for what

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Speaker 1: she calls biological naturalism, and that's the idea that consciousness

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Speaker 1: is or is likely to be unique to biological carbon

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Speaker 1: based organisms. Daniel Dennett ridicules this point of view by

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Speaker 1: calling it the belief that the brain possesses what he

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Speaker 1: calls wonder tissue. You know that there's just something in

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Speaker 1: the brain that, like magic, allows it to generate consciousness

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Speaker 1: while other types of things can't generate consciousness. I don't

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Speaker 1: know the answer to this question whether things other than

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Speaker 1: brains can or cannot gem great consciousness. It Uh, I'm

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Speaker 1: sort of skeptical of both sides of the argument. But

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Speaker 1: but anyway, Schneider argues that we should conclude by analogy

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Speaker 1: that other computational agents, because our brains are computational agents

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Speaker 1: and they generate consciousness, that other computational agents are also

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Speaker 1: capable of possessing consciousness unless there's some kind of evidence

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Speaker 1: that biological naturalism is is necessarily true, and she says

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Speaker 1: there's not, And I agree that there is not evidence

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Speaker 1: of that. You know, what's interesting about the way that

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Speaker 1: you just lay this out, though I can easily imagine

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Speaker 1: a situation where an advanced AI is forced to, uh,

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Speaker 1: sort of ponder the situation, well, is having a conscious

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Speaker 1: um this conscious experience? Is it important. Well, let's let

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Speaker 1: me create like a programming or a subset of myself

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Speaker 1: that has at least as close of an approximation of

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Speaker 1: consciousness as as as as it is understood at that

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Speaker 1: time in order to evaluate you know, right, Um, so

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Speaker 1: then it perhaps has sort of it's its main mind,

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Speaker 1: but then it has sort of a subset of quote

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Speaker 1: unquote conscious minds just in case it is important. Yeah, obviously,

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Speaker 1: I mean huge question, like how would it know how

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Speaker 1: to do that? But assuming could that, Yeah, that's really

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Speaker 1: funny that, like it could try to iterate consciousness in

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Speaker 1: in an experimental way to see if to see if

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Speaker 1: it makes a difference, because that's another big thing, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, the biological question about consciousness. We at least

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Speaker 1: know that biological brains can be conscious. We don't know

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Speaker 1: if computers can be or not. But since biological brains

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Speaker 1: are conscious, is that an adaptive evolutionary trait? Does consciousness

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Speaker 1: do something? Or or could you have a an animal

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Speaker 1: that is absolutely functionally identical to a human but not conscious.

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Speaker 1: This is actually the concept of a philosophical zombie or

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Speaker 1: a p zombie, a being that is that is indistinguishable

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Speaker 1: from a normal human except it has no inner experience.

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Speaker 1: So in like this scenario where the super AI creates

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Speaker 1: like account soul of quote unquote conscious iterations of itself,

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Speaker 1: like maybe they're just faking consciousness. How would it know? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then how would it know? How would we know?

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Speaker 1: And yeah, again if you're and then if you're dealing

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Speaker 1: with an AI, like suddenly we make contact with an

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Speaker 1: AI from another world? Um, is it important that it

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Speaker 1: be conscious or not conscious? Like? There are lots of

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Speaker 1: things that are important and even beneficial that are not conscious,

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Speaker 1: like the you know, the Bill of Rights is not

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Speaker 1: a conscious entity. Um, but you know, I think most

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Speaker 1: would argue that it is. It is important. It does

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Speaker 1: good things. I mean, you could argue that it is

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Speaker 1: only important in that it has effects on conscious on

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Speaker 1: things that are conscious. Yeah, Like in a universe where

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Speaker 1: there was nothing that was conscious, would the Bill of

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Speaker 1: Rights be useful? But I don't know. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: guess there are some theories of value that would that

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Speaker 1: would say like, yeah, things could still be of value

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Speaker 1: even if they weren't conscious, right, uh yeah, And then

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Speaker 1: again it just it also kind of becomes pointless because

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Speaker 1: once you're talking to that AI. Um, yeah, Well what

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Speaker 1: does what does it mean if it's conscious or not? Like,

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Speaker 1: how does that change the way you interact with it? Um?

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Speaker 1: Unless you're you know, actively saying hey, stop, think about

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Speaker 1: what you're doing, think about what you're thinking about. Uh.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. So I don't know what to think

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Speaker 1: about the consciousness question for for alien machines. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think I think Schneider makes the best argument that

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Speaker 1: I could imagine for it, But I still don't know

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Speaker 1: if I'm convinced, just because this whole realm to me

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Speaker 1: just seems so uncertain. Um. But but then she goes

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Speaker 1: on to some other things that I think are some

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Speaker 1: really interesting ideas. Actually, she talks about what would be

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Speaker 1: the predictable characteristics of super intelligent machines, the minds we

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Speaker 1: would encounter out there if we did encounter them. Well,

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Speaker 1: she admits that there's not a lot we can know,

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Speaker 1: at least certainly not that much that we can say

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Speaker 1: with with too much confidence, But we can make some

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Speaker 1: educated guesses about the broad strokes of of alien intelligence.

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Speaker 1: And to do this she cites the work of again

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Speaker 1: philosopher Nick Bostrom, who is fame is for writing about

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Speaker 1: AI risks, and I believe he actually coined the term

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Speaker 1: super intelligence, though it could be wrong about that, but

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Speaker 1: Bostrom says, yes, it is hard to predict the goals

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Speaker 1: of a future AI, you know, alien intelligence is very

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Speaker 1: difficult to understand. But he identifies what he thinks are

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Speaker 1: several intellectual tendencies that are likely to be found in

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Speaker 1: any super intelligent AI, and they're likely to be found

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Speaker 1: in any of them because he says, these traits are

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Speaker 1: useful in attaining almost any goal. And so these goals

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Speaker 1: he identifies our resource acquisition makes sense. You need resources

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Speaker 1: in order to like keep your processes going. Technological perfection, right,

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Speaker 1: you want yourself to work efficiently, Cognitive enhancement, you always

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Speaker 1: want to be smarter, self preservation, you want to be

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Speaker 1: able to keep doing things. And then what he calls

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Speaker 1: goal content integrity, and Schneider summarizes that by saying, I e.

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Speaker 1: That a super intelligent being's future self will pursue and

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Speaker 1: tin those same goals. Uh. And this one was really

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Speaker 1: interesting to me actually thinking about the idea that a

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Speaker 1: machine would need to try to make sure that as

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Speaker 1: it iterates to to improve itself, it doesn't change what

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Speaker 1: it was trying to do. In the first place, sort

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Speaker 1: of a prime directive sort of situation, right, Yeah, Or

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Speaker 1: to come back to the culture, the idea that like,

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Speaker 1: if you're created, if your original design is to aid

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Speaker 1: humans and make their life easier, than you keep doing

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Speaker 1: that even if you are ultimately the calling all the

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Speaker 1: shots now and you know, are in charge of all

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Speaker 1: the interactions with other civilizations, etcetera. Yeah, And that that

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Speaker 1: actually comes into the next thing she says about Bostrom's

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Speaker 1: ideas on on these super intelligence is uh. She she writes, quote,

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Speaker 1: he underscores that self preservation can involve group or individual preservation,

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Speaker 1: and that it may play second fiddle to the preservation

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Speaker 1: of the species the AI was designed to serve. So

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Speaker 1: could be that these AI s, if they ever do

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Speaker 1: come to exist, would yeah, that they would be the

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Speaker 1: custodians or caretakers, thinking mainly about the preservation of the

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Speaker 1: species that created them, and then when they come to us,

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Speaker 1: they ultimately just want to serve man. But then one

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Speaker 1: last thing that Schneider argues that I thought would be

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Speaker 1: interesting to mention is uh, and I think I said

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Speaker 1: this earlier. But she also argues that perhaps the most

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Speaker 1: common form of super intelligence we could expect to encounter

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Speaker 1: would be what she calls biologically inspired super intelligent aliens,

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Speaker 1: and that if this argument is correct, this could also

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Speaker 1: tell us some things about intellectual characteristics that we would

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Speaker 1: expect to find in these super intelligences. So, to read

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Speaker 1: from Schneider's chapter, she says, uh, it may turn out

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Speaker 1: that of all super intelligent ai s, biologically inspired super

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Speaker 1: intelligent ais, they're the most resemblance to each other. In

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Speaker 1: other words, visas maybe the most cohesive subgroup because the

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Speaker 1: other members are so different from each other. And there

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Speaker 1: she's talking about members of the galactic community. Basically that

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Speaker 1: the biologically inspired ones would have the most in common

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Speaker 1: with each other. So what kinds of things could they

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Speaker 1: have in common? She says, noticed that besas have two

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Speaker 1: features that may give rise to common cognitive capacities and goals. One,

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Speaker 1: visas are descended from creatures that had motivations like find food,

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Speaker 1: avoid injury, and predators, reproduce, cooperate, compete, and so on.

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Speaker 1: And then second, she says, the life forms that beasts

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Speaker 1: are modeled from have evolved to deal with biological constraints

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Speaker 1: like slow processing speed and the spatial limitations of embodiment. So,

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Speaker 1: she says, could these two principles one and two yield

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Speaker 1: traits common to members of many super intelligent alien civilizations?

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Speaker 1: I suspect so, and she gives a bunch of examples,

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Speaker 1: But I mean, a very simple and easy to grasp

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Speaker 1: one would be that since intelligent biological life is primarily

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Speaker 1: be concerned with its biological imperatives, mainly survival and reproduction,

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Speaker 1: she says, it is more likely that visas would have

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Speaker 1: final goals involving their own survival and reproduction, or at

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Speaker 1: least the survival and reproduction of the members of their society.

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Speaker 1: And I was just thinking this can be extrapolated to

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Speaker 1: other ideas. For example, why wouldn't a superintelligent AI just

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Speaker 1: just reprogram itself until it is no longer anything like

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Speaker 1: its biological ancestors. So is it still really reproducing the

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Speaker 1: original version of itself at all? Well, if you think

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Speaker 1: back to Bostrom's idea of of goal content integrity, I

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Speaker 1: wonder if this could in a way entail a kind

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Speaker 1: of halting of the evolutionary process of life that has

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Speaker 1: gone on throughout all of history, Because suddenly, once you

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Speaker 1: reach this level of intelligence, a a machine iterating itself

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Speaker 1: may just want to preserve the idea that it is

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Speaker 1: still its original self. That's an inherently motivating goal for it,

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Speaker 1: and thus it would prevent changes to itself that would

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Speaker 1: make it feel too different from what it once was. Huh.

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Speaker 1: You know it reminds me of like when you when

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Speaker 1: you hear a really great song for the first time,

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Speaker 1: or you you start playing a video game and it

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Speaker 1: really grabs you, or you know, you get super into

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Speaker 1: you know, some fandom or another. There's, at least for me,

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Speaker 1: there's sometimes that point where you realize, like, wow, this

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Speaker 1: is really fulfilling for me right now, and the day

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Speaker 1: will come when it won't be Like, as much as

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Speaker 1: I enjoy this game or this book or this song

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Speaker 1: or whatever it is, there will come a day when

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Speaker 1: I will set it aside because and I will there

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Speaker 1: will be something else I'm into. So I guess the

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Speaker 1: question is it's like, if if we or this machine

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Speaker 1: that we're imagining here, if it could decide no, I

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Speaker 1: will always be into this album. This album is great

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Speaker 1: and it shall always be that way. Would it do that,

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Speaker 1: would it set itself in time, or would it like

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Speaker 1: assume that it would always be in this and just

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Speaker 1: it kind of gets back to that vampire scenario you've

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Speaker 1: brought up before. You know, you don't know what you're

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Speaker 1: going to want when you become the vampire, and it's

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Speaker 1: hard to iagine what your mindset is when you reach

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Speaker 1: that point. Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point. Certainly

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Speaker 1: applies to becoming some kind of machine or merging with it,

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Speaker 1: or remodeling yourself if you already are machine than now.

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Speaker 1: Schneider makes a number of other arguments about the types

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Speaker 1: of post biological intelligences that we would be likely to

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Speaker 1: encounter again, derived from the idea that there is some

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Speaker 1: kind of ancestral biological inspiration behind these hypothetical superintelligences. And

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Speaker 1: the thing she zeroes in on is that some limitations

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Speaker 1: from original biological organisms are things that aies would probably

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Speaker 1: want to engineer out of themselves. Right now, you can

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Speaker 1: think of plenty of things about your brain that if

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Speaker 1: you know, your brain were to evolve into some kind

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Speaker 1: of computer that was always perfecting itself, it might want

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Speaker 1: to leave by the wayside over time. You know, maybe

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Speaker 1: some of your obsessions and anxieties and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: But what's left if you take all that out right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a good point. But then she also says that

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Speaker 1: there are quote cognitive capacities that sophisticated forms of biological

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Speaker 1: intelligence are likely to have and which enable the super

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Speaker 1: intelligence to carry out its final and instrumental goals. We

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Speaker 1: could also look for traits that are not likely to

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Speaker 1: be engineered out, as they do not detract the visa

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Speaker 1: from its goals. So there are some traits of biological

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Speaker 1: intelligence that probably have inherent advantages. There are just some

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Speaker 1: ways that brains work really good, and it would want

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Speaker 1: to replicate that and just refine it across time. And

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Speaker 1: then there are other traits of biological intelligences that might

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Speaker 1: not have clear advantages, but they at least wouldn't detract

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Speaker 1: from the attainment of goals. So just you know, why

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Speaker 1: why not keep them around? Yeah, sort of the lukewarm

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Speaker 1: stuff that's not detrimental to their goals. But all that

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Speaker 1: doesn't maybe help it all that much, but isn't isn't

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Speaker 1: using a lot of energy, et cetera. Right, So to

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Speaker 1: get into Schneider's explicit predictions for bio logically inspired superintelligence

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Speaker 1: is the first one. I'm not going to get deep

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Speaker 1: into because it's a little dry. But this is a

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Speaker 1: fair point, I guess. She says, learning about the computational

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Speaker 1: structure of the brain of the species that created the

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Speaker 1: visa can provide insight into the visas thinking patterns. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So basically you can start to gain some insights into

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Speaker 1: the computational structure of an animal's brain or or nervous

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Speaker 1: system more broadly, by studying the brain's connect tome. A

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Speaker 1: connect to home is a map of the connections between neurons,

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Speaker 1: which at least in theory, would help you understand which

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Speaker 1: cells and structures in the brain or the nervous system

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Speaker 1: broadly share information with which others in order to better

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Speaker 1: understand how information is processed as a whole. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean this makes me think, for instance, like when we

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Speaker 1: think of an artificial intelligence, we are often loosely thinking

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Speaker 1: of like that like that single entity. But what have

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Speaker 1: you had, What have you had an alien life form

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Speaker 1: that had sort of a pronoun bounced bicameral mind situation

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Speaker 1: going on, where like the actual organic organism had uh

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Speaker 1: like two houses of thought going on that kind of

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Speaker 1: communicate with each other, and therefore that ends up being

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Speaker 1: reflected in the ai they create. Oh, that's very interesting.

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Speaker 1: That will actually come back to a question I have

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Speaker 1: about one of the points she makes later on. But again,

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Speaker 1: just the point she's making here is that if you

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Speaker 1: can look at the physical structure of the original ancestral

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Speaker 1: organism that the intelligence is evolved from, that can help

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Speaker 1: you understand something about how the intelligence of its machine

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Speaker 1: descendant works. Quote. While it is likely that a given

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Speaker 1: visa will not have the same kind of connect dome

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Speaker 1: as the members of the original species, some of the

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Speaker 1: functional and structural connections may be retained, and interesting departures

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Speaker 1: from the originals may be found. Now after that, she

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Speaker 1: brings up a second point that I thought was a

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Speaker 1: very interesting prediction. She writes, quote visas may have viewpoint

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Speaker 1: invariant representation. Now what does that mean? Well, an easy

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Speaker 1: way to think about it is this. If you're watching

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Speaker 1: a movie and the camera suddenly cuts to a different

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Speaker 1: angle in the middle of a scene, but it's still

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Speaker 1: the same scene going on. How is it that you

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Speaker 1: still understand you're watching a continuation of the same action

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Speaker 1: as before. Everything looks completely different, but you understand that

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Speaker 1: these are the same actors playing the same characters in

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Speaker 1: the same room, even though it looks totally different. This

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Speaker 1: is one of the ways that human intelligence still drastically

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Speaker 1: outperforms artificial intelligence on Earth. You know, humans can look

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Speaker 1: at an object it's a VHS tape of the Star

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Speaker 1: Wars Holiday special, and you can look at it from

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Speaker 1: completely different angles. Maybe the front cover of the box

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Speaker 1: looks completely different than the back cover of the box,

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Speaker 1: but you turn it around and you still understand that

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Speaker 1: you're looking at the same object. Humans are able to

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Speaker 1: form mental representations of objects in the world that can

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Speaker 1: be isolated and recognized and manipul related within the mind's eye,

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Speaker 1: and we humans are not typically going to be confused

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Speaker 1: about what we're looking at because we took a step

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Speaker 1: to the side and change the angle of observation. Even

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Speaker 1: though the light reflecting off of the object and hitting

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Speaker 1: our eyes will produce a very different pattern on the retina,

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Speaker 1: we somehow still use our intelligence to know that we're

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Speaker 1: still looking at the same object or scene. And this

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Speaker 1: is a much much harder task for a computer. I mean,

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Speaker 1: ask anybody who's been involved in visual object recognition. It's

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Speaker 1: an incredibly difficult task for AI. And this is one

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Speaker 1: of the many amazing fast and loose intellectual feats that

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Speaker 1: humans do all the time so often that we we

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Speaker 1: rarely appreciate how amazing our brains are in this regard.

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Speaker 1: Another example from a recent episode was, you know, recalling

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Speaker 1: the Moses Illusion episode, we talked about how good we

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Speaker 1: are at getting the gist of a statement or a question.

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Speaker 1: Even if major pieces of information within the sentence are

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Speaker 1: wrong and should be throwing you often completely the wrong direction,

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Speaker 1: you still are able to very quickly get what the

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Speaker 1: person was probably intending to say and operate on that basis.

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Speaker 1: Now here's where it goes with viewpoint invariant representations, especially

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Speaker 1: as it concerns like physical objects in the world. Schneider

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Speaker 1: argues that you can expect any biologically inspired AI to

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Speaker 1: have viewpoint invariant representations because they seem to be inextricably

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Speaker 1: linked to the biological development of intelligence. And uh, just

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Speaker 1: I'm expanding on her thoughts here, but I think the

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Speaker 1: reasoning goes something like this, What is intelligence? That's actually

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Speaker 1: kind of a difficult question to answer, right, Like, it's

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Speaker 1: kind of hard to pin down. But I think one

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Speaker 1: plausible answer has to do with speed. Intelligence has something

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Speaker 1: to do with the ability to accelerate problem solving or

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Speaker 1: goal acquisition. So you could have an organism that has

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Speaker 1: essentially a random strategy for trying to get what it wants,

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Speaker 1: and very step it goes above a random strategy is

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Speaker 1: in a way an increase in intelligence. It's accelerating the

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Speaker 1: solution of problems. Now, to follow the biological reasoning a

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Speaker 1: little further there, why is it that animals in general

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Speaker 1: need a speed of problem solving intelligence that most plants

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Speaker 1: do not? Well? I think the answer there is that

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Speaker 1: animals survival and reproduction strategies are usually based on movement.

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Speaker 1: This wouldn't be true of all things in the Kingdom animalia.

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Speaker 1: I'm not so much for sponges and stuff, but most

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Speaker 1: animals move fairly rapidly, whether that's for foraging or evading

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Speaker 1: predators or seeking mates or anything like that. If you

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Speaker 1: are able to move fairly quickly, that means your body

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Speaker 1: needs a system of deciding in what direction to move

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Speaker 1: relatively quickly. And so I could be missing something here,

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Speaker 1: but it seems to me that it's a pretty safe

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Speaker 1: assumption that this is one of the major drivers of

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Speaker 1: the development of biological intelligence. Coming up with better and

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Speaker 1: better systems for adaptively optimizing strategies for rapid movement to

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Speaker 1: fit the specifics of the situation you're in. So you're

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Speaker 1: constantly faced with new situations, predator approaching from a different angle,

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Speaker 1: food to be found in a different you know, orientation,

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Speaker 1: or like in a different hard to reach space, and

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Speaker 1: your body needs a way to adapt to whatever situation

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Speaker 1: you're in to decide the best way to move. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it kind of comes down to a certain extent passive

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Speaker 1: energy acquisition versus active energy acquisition. Yes, because you know, obviously,

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Speaker 1: if you have passive energy acquisition, you don't necessarily need

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Speaker 1: to move as much. You know, you can just sort

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Speaker 1: of set up shop. And of course we see examples

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Speaker 1: of that not only in plants, but also in animals

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Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, I mean, how would it help a

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Speaker 1: plant to have a brain. You know, the plant just

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Speaker 1: needs to basically be hardy and sit there and collect sunlight. Yeah. Now,

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Speaker 1: then again, I guess I could imagine a scenario where

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Speaker 1: plants evolved intelligence. If they've got some kind of I

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Speaker 1: don't know, mechanism that allows them to start moving more quickly,

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Speaker 1: they could start evolving so that they could have you know,

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Speaker 1: trees could evade lumberjacks or something. Well, you know, but

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Speaker 1: before we get you know, multiple emails about this, I

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Speaker 1: will say we will do an episode on planned intelligence

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Speaker 1: at some point, because there's a lot of interesting stuff

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Speaker 1: out there and some some really actually there's some arguments

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Speaker 1: that kind of turn some of what we're saying here

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Speaker 1: on its head. So, uh, well, we'll have to keep

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Speaker 1: this conversation in mind when we get around to that

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Speaker 1: future conversation. That's a good point. I mean, I think

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Speaker 1: the movement thing would have to be not a universal

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Speaker 1: necessity for the development of intelligence, but it seems like

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Speaker 1: one of the major pathway that it has evolved on Earth,

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Speaker 1: because I mean, you can imagine other things. Basically, intelligence

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Speaker 1: allows adaptive problem solving, So that could also involve, say,

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Speaker 1: not moving your body, but releasing chemicals into the environment

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Speaker 1: and allowing communication between different nodes in a hub of

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Speaker 1: trees or fungus or something. Yeah, you could have some

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Speaker 1: sort of you know, pheromone spitting um like master plant.

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Speaker 1: Uh that is that has other things to do its bidding,

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Speaker 1: that has other things built at spacecraft. But to the

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Speaker 1: extent that biological intelligence is often a product of the

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Speaker 1: evolution of rapid movement. Viewpoint invariant representations would seem to

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Speaker 1: be a necessary part of intelligence there, because they are

433
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 1: necessary for an intelligent creature that moves. If you are

434
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,440
Speaker 1: able to move your body, your sense data about objects

435
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 1: in your environment is going to be changing based on

436
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 1: your perspective, especially if those senses are based on something

437
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: that has linear trajectories like light. You know, light bounces

438
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:44,679
Speaker 1: off things in linear ways. You're going to see different

439
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:46,199
Speaker 1: angles of it. I don't know. If you were a

440
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 1: creature entirely based on smells, I don't know. I guess

441
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 1: then still viewpoint invariant would matter because you know, there

442
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 1: would be different concentrations of volatiles in the air depending

443
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 1: on where you stand relative to an object. But it

444
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 1: seems like in general these types representations would be useful

445
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 1: uh in that regard. And then Schneider adds another point there.

446
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 1: She says that viewpoint invariant representations are not only important

447
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 1: so that we don't get confused about what we're looking

448
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 1: at in the environment. You know, you don't look at

449
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 1: a rock from the opposite side and not understand it's

450
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:21,439
Speaker 1: the same rock. She says they're also important for abstract reasoning. Quote,

451
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 1: you have mental representations that are at a relatively high

452
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 1: level of processing inter viewpoint invariant. It seems difficult for

453
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 1: biologically based intelligence to evolve without a viewpoint invariant representations,

454
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 1: as they enable categorization and prediction. So, because you can

455
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 1: represent objects as a kind of symbol or or emblem

456
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,360
Speaker 1: of themselves in your brain that is independent of just

457
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 1: the one way they looked when you looked at them

458
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,120
Speaker 1: from one angle, you can sort of like you can

459
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 1: turn them around in your brain and think about how

460
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 1: they might be used as a tool, or you can

461
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 1: predict how they would act given certain physical forces on them. Yeah,

462
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: and you know that this makes you think a little

463
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 1: bit of the book by David Eagleman, Live Wired, talking

464
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 1: about like the different sensory inputs for the human brain

465
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 1: and how if you if you you know, you lose

466
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 1: one sensory input and you can add another, or you

467
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 1: can even add all new sensory inputs. Our brains will

468
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 1: make sense of it. Our brains will essentially form that

469
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 1: mental image of the thing, um, even if we don't

470
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: have visual processing at our disposal. So if an alien

471
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,199
Speaker 1: brain is is it all like a human brain? You know,

472
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 1: in in enough respects, then it seems like the same

473
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: thing would be going on even if we were dealing

474
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 1: with being that say, evolved with less of a reliance

475
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: on vision, or more of a reliance on other senses

476
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: or even some sense that you know that we have

477
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,479
Speaker 1: a have a difficult time imagining because we don't possess

478
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,360
Speaker 1: it ourselves. Yeah, yeah, that that that it would need

479
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 1: based on whatever senses. It had to have some kind

480
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 1: of mental representations of objects in the world that would

481
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: not be changed. It is just by slightly changing the

482
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 1: physical perspective from which you sense that object. Yeah. Now

483
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 1: it does relate all sorts of interesting questions like what

484
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 1: if what if the sense of smell was the primary sense?

485
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 1: How do you create, say, a control panel for your spaceship?

486
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 1: You know, interesting like each button has a different smell.

487
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 1: I don't know, they're again, maybe it's a situation where

488
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: we don't have a versatile enough palette or appreciation of

489
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 1: the palette ourselves to even envision what that would be like.

490
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: But you know, our our dogs, uh, you know, if

491
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 1: they were more intelligent they could let us know. They

492
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,119
Speaker 1: would say, oh, yeah, I can totally imagine what it

493
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 1: would be like. Oh man, here's my idea for sci

494
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: fi novel. Okay, humans, humans come into conflict with an

495
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 1: interstellar species that has, uh, that has a culture that's

496
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: all entirely based around a species with a dominant sense

497
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 1: of smell. And what we have to do is uplift

498
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: dogs to the point where they have human intelligence so

499
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 1: that they can tell us what it's like to see

500
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 1: the world through that much smell data, so that we

501
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 1: can better understand the aliens in order to protect ourselves

502
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: against them. Yeah, and if it's a darelict ship or

503
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,679
Speaker 1: something like that, perhaps the control panels like they've lost

504
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 1: a lot of their smell, so it's we don't even

505
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 1: initially realize that this is a scent based control system.

506
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 1: But then the dogs they they're like, yes, I can

507
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,640
Speaker 1: still smell things. There are numerous smells going on here.

508
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: This is like sticking my head out the window while

509
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: you drive around town. This is gold. Yeah. Okay, Well, anyway,

510
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 1: I think Schneider's point here is a really interesting one.

511
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 1: I do think that's worth considering about the viewpoint invariant representation.

512
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 1: But to move on to her next point, uh, this

513
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: one's also I think pretty cool. She says, visas will

514
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 1: probably have language like mental representations that are recursive and combinatorial.

515
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: And to illustrate this, Schneider gives the example of novel sentences. Now,

516
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 1: we encounter novel sentences all the time, every day. I'll

517
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: do one of my own. Here, here's the sentence the

518
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 1: Howling seven New Moon Rising is the greatest film ever made.

519
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 1: You have never heard this sentence spoken before, and yet

520
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: you understand perfectly what it would mean for somebody to

521
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: say this. Why is it that we're constantly hearing and

522
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: speaking totally unique, brand new sentences, probably never uttered before

523
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: by any humans, certainly not in a way that we've heard,

524
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:30,479
Speaker 1: and yet they're perfectly comprehensible. Schneider argues that quote the

525
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: key is that the thoughts are combinatorial because they're built

526
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: out of familiar constituents and combined according to rules. The

527
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: rules apply to constructions out of primitive constituents that are

528
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: themselves constructed grammatically, as well as to primitive constituents themselves.

529
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 1: Grammatical mental operations are incredibly useful. It is the combinatorial

530
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 1: nature of thought that allows one to understand and produce

531
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: these sentences on the basis of one's antecedent knowledge of

532
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 1: the grammar and atomic constituents. So, because you have an

533
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: internalized sense of grammar, not just you know, it's not

534
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: just that you know what the words mean individually, but

535
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 1: you also grasp the rules that apply to how sentences work.

536
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: And then you even grasp rules that go beyond just

537
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: how sentences work. You grasp sort of cultural rules about

538
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: how words fit together to form meaning. One example in

539
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: the sentence I said is that even if you've never

540
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 1: heard of the Howling seven New Moon Rising, you could

541
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 1: probably understand that this is the name of a movie. Okay,

542
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 1: but so so what's the point then she's she's making

543
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: about the mind of of these potential alien AI. Well,

544
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 1: basically that it would probably be language based. She goes

545
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: on to say that a mind quote can entertain and

546
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 1: produce an infinite number of distinct representations because the mind

547
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 1: has a combinatorial syntax, so something like a language with grammar.

548
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 1: And she concludes this point by saying, quote, brains need

549
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: combinanttorial representations because there are infinitely many possible linguistic representations.

550
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: You know, an infinite number of sentences you could say,

551
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 1: and the brain only has a finite storage space, right,

552
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: So the brain can't just store every possible sentence within

553
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 1: itself and then check whatever somebody just said against that

554
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 1: sentence stored in memory. It's got to be flexible. It's

555
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 1: got to be able to build an understanding of sentences

556
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 1: on the fly based on these constituent parts and an

557
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: understanding of grammar. Okay, that makes sense. I think that's

558
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 1: one of those things that most of us, you know,

559
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: in our sci fi visions, we tend to just assume

560
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: the intelligent aliens have some sort of a language and

561
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 1: they're you know, an AI version would as well. But

562
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: it is good to see that um driven home with

563
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,959
Speaker 1: logic here. Well, I mean, you could imagine somebody arguing

564
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: the opposite way. You could say that maybe language is

565
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: only useful for humans to communicate with each other, and

566
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: that once you had something like a super intelligent AI

567
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: no longer would need to communicate with these bit of tools.

568
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 1: It could just have I don't know what, you know,

569
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 1: imagine some kind of machine version of telepathy where it

570
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: just represents the world as some kind of I don't

571
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: know what it would be, represents some kind of internal

572
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 1: states two different parts of itself without having a code

573
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: system like language. But Schneider says, quote, even a super

574
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 1: intelligent system would benefit from combinatorial representations. Although a super

575
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: intelligent system could have computational resources that are so vast

576
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: that it is mostly capable of pairing up utterances or

577
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: inscriptions with a stored sentence, it would be unlikely that

578
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: it would trade away such a marvelous innovation of biological brains.

579
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: If it did, it would be less efficient, since there

580
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: is the potential of a sentence not being in its storage,

581
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: which must be finite. So again she's saying here like,

582
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: even if you would imagine that super intelligences would get

583
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 1: so powerful that they wouldn't need something like lying which

584
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 1: to communicate with each other, it's actually still better to

585
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 1: have something like a language, even for internal logic and

586
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 1: representing computations from one part of a system to another. Yeah,

587
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's like having a logic budget, you know.

588
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: I mean you can just because you you have a

589
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 1: lot of energy at your disposal, doesn't mean that you

590
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: just throw the budget out the window. Yeah. So again,

591
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 1: you know, we're dealing in highly speculative realms. I think

592
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 1: it's always possible we're being misled by a lack of imagination.

593
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: But I think this point is very strong. It seems

594
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 1: very likely to me that post biological AI would benefit

595
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 1: from some kind of language like system of mental symbols

596
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 1: and representations that were subject to something like a grammar.

597
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 1: Now there's one point she makes that we already mentioned,

598
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 1: and that's that quote, visas may have one or more

599
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: global workspaces. Uh. Now, again, to explain the global workspace idea,

600
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: Schneider argues, quote, the global workspace operates as a singular

601
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: place where important information from the senses is considered in tandem,

602
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: so that the creature can make all things considered judgments

603
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,879
Speaker 1: and act intelligently in light of all the facts at

604
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 1: its disposal. In general, it would be inefficient to have

605
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: a sense or cognitive capacity that was not integrated with

606
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,240
Speaker 1: the others, because the information from this sense or cognitive

607
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 1: capacity would be unable to figure in predictions and plans

608
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 1: based on an assessment of all the available information. Now,

609
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 1: this one I'm actually less sure about, because I would say,

610
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 1: and maybe I'm I'm partially misunderstanding her point here, But

611
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: but I can think of counter arguments to this, like,

612
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 1: isn't there some evidence that the brain does keep some

613
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: relevant processing information hidden from or segregated from conscious awareness

614
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 1: in certain scenarios, like maybe there are some types of

615
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 1: information that are useful in making certain kinds of calculations,

616
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 1: but tend to be in hib a tory towards other

617
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 1: types of calculations or thought processes if they're considered at

618
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 1: the same time. So it's sometimes useful to keep senses

619
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,760
Speaker 1: or knowledge separated from the cognitive workspace. A very simple

620
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 1: example would be the knowledge that you are hungry. The

621
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: knowledge that you're hungry is useful if you're in a

622
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:21,359
Speaker 1: position to get something to eat. But imagine you are

623
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 1: stuck on the subway and you don't have any food

624
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 1: on you and there's no way you could get food

625
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 1: at the at the current time, and you're trying to

626
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 1: read something or prepare for a work presentation. Their awareness

627
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 1: of your hunger is actually counterproductive. It's just distracting you

628
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 1: and adding nothing. Yeah, I mean, it's it's kind of

629
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: like the idea of like any an enormous buffet right

630
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 1: at a let's say a hotel or you know, show

631
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: needs or something you know, and you go through it

632
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 1: with your plate, you get the things off that plate

633
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: that are necessary for the meal you're about to have,

634
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 1: and then of course you can engage in the various

635
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,959
Speaker 1: combinations and problem solving involved in the consumption of that meal.

636
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 1: But you don't need a rag the popcorn shrimp into

637
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 1: it if you're not gonna eat the popcorn shrimp. You know,

638
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 1: if you can't eat the popcorn shrimp, why would that

639
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: be part of Why would that be on the plate?

640
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 1: Why would that be on in the workspace? Or you

641
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 1: don't have to put the ice cream sunday on the

642
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 1: same plate that you put the nachos on, right, Yeah,

643
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 1: it can be off to the side. You can keep

644
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 1: the banana putting segregated from the crab legs. Yeah. Then again,

645
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:24,959
Speaker 1: I think to be fair to this argument, you could

646
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 1: probably also counter argue that this type of problem is

647
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,479
Speaker 1: only a result of inefficiencies in our brains that maybe

648
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 1: could be worked out by artificial intelligence, you know, upgrading itself.

649
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 1: Maybe you could reach the point where you could have

650
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 1: a global workspace where all information is available at the

651
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: same time, and information that is not useful now can

652
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: can just be sort of like safely ignored and won't

653
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:54,359
Speaker 1: be distracting. M Yeah, I don't know, it's it's hard

654
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: to imagine, like it's. It kind of makes one think

655
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,239
Speaker 1: of something of like a situation where something is built

656
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 1: by committee, where all all concerns and all factors are involved.

657
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,399
Speaker 1: And I don't know that kind of thing can lead

658
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: to I guess with the right kind of project, it

659
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:08,799
Speaker 1: can be rather successful. You can sort of look at

660
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:10,800
Speaker 1: it both ways, right, You could look at like a

661
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:16,879
Speaker 1: a highly um efficient like NASA project, Right, But then

662
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 1: we can also think of you know, artistic projects that

663
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 1: might be compromised by such an approach. So I don't know,

664
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 1: you can look at it different ways, and maybe with

665
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,919
Speaker 1: the sorts of projects that you know, super intelligent AI

666
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: would would be focused on, it would make sense. I mean,

667
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 1: I will at least say, with my current limited biological brain,

668
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 1: there are certainly times when it is better to have

669
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 1: parts of my awareness and parts of my cognition inaccessible

670
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 1: to my consciousness. Yeah, I mean, there are some arguments that,

671
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 1: uh that that put forward that that consciousness itself is

672
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 1: like part part of consciousness is having a minimal attention,

673
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:55,839
Speaker 1: you know, being able to focus in on something and

674
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 1: not be focused in on everything else like that, That

675
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 1: is where the consciousness happened. Yeah, the consciousness could be

676
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,359
Speaker 1: sort of the spotlight within your global workspace. You've got

677
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: like a workspace for problem solving, and consciousness is how

678
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 1: you you determine what is right in front of you

679
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: in that space right now. And then finally, Schneider argues

680
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 1: that a visa's mental processing can be understood via functional decomposition. Uh,

681
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: and this is fairly straightforward. It's just you know, minds

682
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 1: are hard to understand. Brains are incredibly complex. The same

683
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 1: would be true of super intelligence is whatever kind of

684
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,280
Speaker 1: physical substrate they're based on. But you can break down

685
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 1: brains and computers into their constituent functional parts and structures,

686
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:42,240
Speaker 1: and by doing that you can break the big problem

687
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 1: into smaller problems and more easily understand how they work.

688
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 1: And this would in theory at least apply even to

689
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 1: incredibly powerful AI. S Okay, fair enough. Now there's one

690
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:54,280
Speaker 1: last thing I was wondering about. This is not raised

691
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:58,760
Speaker 1: by Schneider. This just occurred to me. Would post biological

692
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,359
Speaker 1: AI be likely to have an equivalent of what we

693
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 1: regard as emotions? You know, if you if you encounter

694
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 1: one of these things, would it matter in what tone

695
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 1: of voice you were to speak to it, would it

696
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:17,280
Speaker 1: be possible to hurt its feelings? I don't know, Like, um,

697
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 1: perhaps in turn, like we might have to break down

698
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 1: what emotions are in a way that would make sense

699
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:25,439
Speaker 1: to something like this, Like maybe part of it would

700
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 1: come down to urgency, you know. Um, So there might

701
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 1: be a situation where out of urgency, the machine would

702
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 1: need to essentially raise its voice. Um, though it would

703
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 1: maybe not you know, maybe this would not be carried

704
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,280
Speaker 1: out in a way that we would think of as emotional,

705
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,839
Speaker 1: but it might, you know, seem similar as to whether

706
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:50,240
Speaker 1: it's feelings could be hurt, I don't know. Maybe maybe

707
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:54,720
Speaker 1: it's assessment of us could change based on the way

708
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 1: that we are expressing ourselves to it, and that is

709
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:00,919
Speaker 1: similar to an emotional reaction. And I don't know. Yeah,

710
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: I guess it's hard to separate emotional reactions to our

711
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 1: behavior with purely logical the ability to predict our future behavior, right,

712
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 1: because I would say a lot of ways that we

713
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 1: react emotionally to people, it could be very flawed in

714
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 1: this regard, but there at least somehow correlated to a

715
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 1: feeling about how this same person that is making you

716
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 1: feel a certain way now would behave towards you in

717
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 1: the future. Yeah, I mean we're kind of all over

718
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 1: the board when it comes to imagining the emotional context

719
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 1: of of AI. Because even when we we sort of

720
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 1: do that thing where we you know, we fall back

721
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 1: on on AI presented itself like this to us. Uh, yes,

722
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 1: like even that is like that we presented as being

723
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 1: calm and understanding if if not you know, kind of

724
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,320
Speaker 1: emotional nous, but in a way that it is an emotion, yeah,

725
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 1: British accent. But but also yeah, we often we often

726
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 1: imagine it as being sort of infinitely calm and above

727
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: above anger, which in and of itself is kind of

728
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 1: and it is it is an emotional state. So I

729
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,800
Speaker 1: guess they're actually too totally different questions. Would a super intelligent,

730
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 1: biologically inspired AI simulate emotions for the benefit of a

731
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 1: you know, for the benefit of a biological audience, or

732
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:22,919
Speaker 1: would actually have something like emotions that are truly motivating

733
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: its own behavior. Yeah, I don't know, it's it's it

734
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 1: seems a difficult one to unravel. I guess where my

735
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 1: brain just went is when we imagine aliens becoming aware

736
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: of us, you know, and we try to imagine their

737
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:37,839
Speaker 1: mind states. Some of the ones we come to are

738
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: like pity, you know, like oh, these you know, less

739
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,479
Speaker 1: technologically developed species of Earth. You know, maybe we should

740
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 1: help them, or maybe just a desire to destroy us,

741
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: squash us out, or a desire to like have all

742
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 1: of our resources. But we don't often imagine what if

743
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 1: the aliens encounter us and they're embarrassed for us, It's

744
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:00,360
Speaker 1: like it's so cringe inducing. Well, and that could be

745
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,879
Speaker 1: part of them choosing not to engage with us at all. Right,

746
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 1: But anyway, I've found this chapter by Schneider really interesting,

747
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,800
Speaker 1: even though I'm skeptical of some of these transhumanist ideas,

748
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 1: but I think this is really worth a read. It's

749
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 1: it's very interesting, awesome. Yeah, and UH, and she's she's

750
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 1: just a good science communicator in general. You'll find various

751
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 1: talks that she's given. Um, I think she's done some more,

752
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 1: you know, pps. Her work has been covered as well

753
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:28,320
Speaker 1: in various publications. So let's come back to UH to

754
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: show stick though, and particularly his idea is concerning SETI

755
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 1: the search for extra terrestrial intelligence? What what does all

756
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: of this mean for STU? So we'd be talking about

757
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 1: in theory, a highly intelligent, effectively immortal species if you will,

758
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 1: that evolves, can replicate itself, and has no biological environmental demands. Interesting. Yeah, so,

759
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 1: how does that change what you're looking for? Um? So,

760
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 1: showstick argues that, you know, consequently, since it would not

761
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 1: be limited by biological lifespans, interstellar travel would be would

762
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 1: certainly be an option. You know, you wouldn't be limited

763
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 1: by your mortality. All trips would be the same length.

764
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 1: You would just need energy and material for replacement in

765
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:15,280
Speaker 1: the improvement of parts. On top of this, these machines,

766
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 1: this machine civilization would not be limited to water worlds. Uh.

767
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 1: But while low energy machines could survive pretty much anywhere,

768
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 1: truly dominant post biological civilizations would still require a lot

769
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 1: of energy, and that of course means needing to be

770
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 1: near major energy sources such as stars and black holes.

771
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 1: It seems like, uh, once you transition from being a

772
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,319
Speaker 1: biological life form to a post biological life form, the

773
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 1: specifics of your needs become less chemical and more just

774
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 1: broadly physical. Yeah yeah so, And this this of course

775
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 1: has ramifications for for part of the search for extra

776
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 1: structural life, because then it means that well, maybe searching

777
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 1: for rocky wet planets isn't where we're going to find

778
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 1: the advanced civilization, and because the advanced civilizations no longer

779
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 1: need that, so Showstack suggests that the galactic center would

780
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,799
Speaker 1: be the ideal place for these machines to set up shop,

781
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 1: a region of high energy density. Again, distance and biological

782
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 1: concerns don't really matter, and likewise, stellar black holes and

783
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 1: neutron stars might be ideal places for them to seek

784
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:24,240
Speaker 1: out as well. However, he mentions that Serbian astrophysicist milan

785
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 1: Im Turkovich has argued that the outer regions of the

786
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 1: galaxy might also be ideal for such AI civilizations, as

787
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:38,439
Speaker 1: that is, the cold there would permit greater thermodynamic efficiency. Ah. Yeah,

788
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 1: like we were talking about with the computer fan running, right,

789
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:46,280
Speaker 1: that a civilization that is, in essence a gigantic computer

790
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:50,839
Speaker 1: would need to eject a lot of waste heat. Yeah,

791
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 1: Still there would be less mass and energy out there

792
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 1: for them. So it's kind of like the same with

793
00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 1: human decisions between a rural or an urban and existence. Like, well,

794
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:02,800
Speaker 1: if I if I live in the heart of the city,

795
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 1: well you know, I've got the theater right down the street.

796
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 1: I've got my favorite grocery store. Uh you know, I've

797
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 1: got I've got the you know, the place where I

798
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 1: get my technology worked on. And I move out to

799
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 1: the sticks while it's quieter. But now, how am I

800
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 1: going to get my groceries? How am I going to

801
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 1: get uh my culture? How am I going to get

802
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,239
Speaker 1: my technology addressed? But I can just throw all my

803
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 1: garbage out the window and nobody bothers me about it.

804
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 1: Uh So, show Stick argues that the ideal place to

805
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 1: look here, so this would be you know, this is

806
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 1: kind of like when humans make the idea of like, well,

807
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,399
Speaker 1: I don't want to live I'm going to compromise. I'm

808
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 1: not gonna live in the heart of the city. I'm

809
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 1: not gonna live in the middle of nowhere. I'm gonna

810
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,359
Speaker 1: find a nice place in the suburbs. Right. So, show

811
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 1: Stick argues that the ideal place where these two ideals

812
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 1: converge uh do exist, and these are the kind of

813
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 1: locations we need to look for. Um So, there's a

814
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 1: list of such places quote that have the thermodynamic advantages

815
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 1: of the galactic nether regions but still lie in regions

816
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:01,800
Speaker 1: of high matter density unquote. And these include places called

817
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 1: back globules. Uh. These are isolated dark nebulae that are

818
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 1: relatively small in size, offer high thermodynamic efficiency, and have

819
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: a lot of interstellar matter. Huh. Interesting. The nearest one

820
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:20,479
Speaker 1: of these, by the way, is Barnard Sight, uh, which

821
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 1: I believe we're referencing in the title for this episode,

822
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 1: a mere five light years away from us. So show So,

823
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 1: I'm not saying there's anything there, but it makes you

824
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 1: think that is interesting. I know, I I don't think

825
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:33,800
Speaker 1: I've ever heard of this criteria to look for before.

826
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:37,280
Speaker 1: Uh So, yeah, what does this mean? Show Stack obviously

827
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 1: is involved in SID Does this mean we've got like, uh,

828
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 1: you know, radio listening a tune to Barnard sixty eight

829
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,239
Speaker 1: right now? Um? Well, I mean, certainly it's been ten

830
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 1: years since this came out. So if if, if these are,

831
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 1: if these are valuable arguments, uh, you know, I would

832
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: assume they've been reflected to some to some degree. But yeah,

833
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 1: in this paper he contends that said he should, you know,

834
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:01,319
Speaker 1: continue to look at Rocky water World, but also at

835
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 1: neighborhoods of hot stars, black holes, neutron stars, bought globules,

836
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 1: et cetera. Like it just you know, we shouldn't limit

837
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 1: ourselves as the argument to these water worlds, because that

838
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:16,320
Speaker 1: may be where life has to emerge from. But given

839
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,319
Speaker 1: this idea of post biological life, that's not where it

840
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: needs to remain. Now. A big question that does remain, however,

841
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 1: is what sort of signal would such a post organic

842
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:29,800
Speaker 1: civilization produced that we could detect. Uh, you know, they

843
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 1: might want us to find them, They might want to

844
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 1: find us. But either way they might they might put

845
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:38,839
Speaker 1: some put something out for us for us to find. Uh,

846
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 1: they might you know, not care that we can observe

847
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 1: their dicens fheares that sort of thing. Um. But if

848
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 1: you know, But but what if they don't you know? Well,

849
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 1: then perhaps it takes one of our own AI to

850
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 1: you know, reach the point where it can discern the

851
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 1: signs of their existence, um, and then perhaps be the

852
00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 1: ones to reach out and make first contact machine to machine. Okay,

853
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 1: so we need a machine to see the gorilla in

854
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:06,239
Speaker 1: the video coming from space? Maybe, I mean again, it

855
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:08,880
Speaker 1: depends on what what they want if they exist and

856
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:10,879
Speaker 1: there at this level, what do they want? Do they

857
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 1: want to make contact? Maybe that's the thing. Maybe again,

858
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 1: they know that organic beings can be messy, and they

859
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: just want to wait until we've reached the point where

860
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 1: their machine can call their machine. You know, I buy

861
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 1: that it's waiting until it doesn't have to deal with meat. Yeah,

862
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:28,359
Speaker 1: like you doesn't want to chase this down, Just send

863
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:31,840
Speaker 1: us the press release, UM, let us know how to

864
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:33,359
Speaker 1: get in touch with you, and we'll set something up.

865
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 1: That's their whole thing. It's like waiting until Like I'm

866
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 1: not going to order delivery from this place until they've

867
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 1: got an online form. I don't want to have to

868
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 1: call talk to somebody, right, I'm sure it's fine. I'm

869
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 1: hearing great things, but get your technology sorted out first,

870
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 1: and then we'll begin this relationship. I've got high hopes

871
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 1: for this species where people are afraid to talk to

872
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:55,920
Speaker 1: other people on the phone. I don't know, I mean yeah,

873
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 1: I mean we're we're ultimately left with some of the

874
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 1: same questions. Not only the big one, does lie exists

875
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:03,360
Speaker 1: elsewhere in the cosmos, but but again, like what would

876
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 1: if if it's if it's alien AI, alien superintelligence, what

877
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 1: are they gonna make of us? How are we going

878
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:12,360
Speaker 1: to fit into what sort of things they do? Um?

879
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:14,319
Speaker 1: Or would we fit in at all like maybe that's

880
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 1: the ultimate thing, is like they just don't they don't care.

881
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 1: Why would they care. We're the ones obsessed with us.

882
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 1: They've got their own thing going on. Do you really

883
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 1: care what the squirrel is digging for in the yard? Well?

884
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 1: I mean I do, but but yeah, ultimately do the

885
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:31,920
Speaker 1: the the cosmic overlord's care? You know, I don't know.

886
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 1: Maybe not now shows that continues to discuss how we

887
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:40,799
Speaker 1: might refine our search for extraterrestrial life. Um. If you

888
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 1: look around for his name, you'll find that he you know,

889
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 1: he gives talks. He discusses set in general of the search,

890
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:49,800
Speaker 1: how that the search itself has changed, and how we

891
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 1: should change it, as well as sort of the societal

892
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 1: considerations involved. But well, one example of something has been

893
00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 1: up to recently. UM In sept September he had an

894
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 1: article titled SETTI The Argument for Artifacts Search is published

895
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 1: in the International Journal of Astrobiology, and in this article

896
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 1: he argues that while most of the search for exeter

897
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 1: terrestrial intelligence has focused on the search for quote, artificially

898
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 1: generated electromagnetic signals, it's artifacts that we should be spending

899
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 1: more time on, or at least more time than we

900
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:24,319
Speaker 1: we are. And this is the idea here, is that

901
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:27,799
Speaker 1: persistent transmissions, you know, sort of we're here, we're here,

902
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:31,479
Speaker 1: signals from beyond these require energy. And then on top

903
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:34,319
Speaker 1: of that the aliens and question should they exist. They

904
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:37,960
Speaker 1: might be exceedingly cryptic, or they might you know, they

905
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 1: might be embarrassed for us, as we've discussed, or they

906
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:44,799
Speaker 1: might just be ignorant of our existence, and you know,

907
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 1: they simply don't know that we exist and likewise don't care. Um,

908
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 1: So perhaps we should be looking more for artifacts or

909
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 1: specifically evidence of artifacts, and to understand waste heat uh,

910
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 1: certainly counts as something we'd be looking for in an

911
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:04,319
Speaker 1: artifacts search, a search for something created or something that

912
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:08,879
Speaker 1: was once created by extraterrestrial life. Oh, and this came

913
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 1: up in the previous episode when we talked about Dyson spheres,

914
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:14,400
Speaker 1: Like one possible way to look for them is to

915
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:17,440
Speaker 1: look for a place where you're not seeing much electromagnetic

916
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 1: radiation accept heat, and the idea there is that maybe

917
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 1: there's a sphere around a star that's harvesting almost all

918
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:26,880
Speaker 1: of its usable energy and pretty much the only thing

919
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:28,839
Speaker 1: that's coming out the other side of it is just

920
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 1: the waste product of their of their processing, which is heat.

921
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 1: It's the computer fan blowing out into space. But yeah,

922
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 1: it's ultimately an interest interesting argument, like, you know, how

923
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:40,800
Speaker 1: much effort should we be putting into picking up those

924
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:47,280
Speaker 1: signals of existence versus sort of perhaps more obscure evidence

925
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 1: of the existence, you know, especially again if something out

926
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,799
Speaker 1: there is maybe less inclined to put out that that

927
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 1: I am here signal, or you know, to even care

928
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 1: or know of our existence to begin with. Yeah, I

929
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 1: could be wrong, but I think I'm right about this. Like,

930
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 1: once you get a certain distance away from the Earth,

931
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:07,319
Speaker 1: you know, some number of light years away, at a

932
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 1: certain point, like any any omnidirectionally transmitted radio signal would

933
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 1: become so weak by the time it reaches us that

934
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:18,400
Speaker 1: we really probably wouldn't notice it. And so like, to

935
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 1: really notice a signal from an alien civilization, it would

936
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 1: probably need to be something that is directionally beamed our

937
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:27,840
Speaker 1: way on purpose, and that that also requires a lot

938
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 1: of assumptions about what's going on with that alien civilization. Yeah,

939
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:34,239
Speaker 1: and and maybe maybe it'll happen, but then again maybe

940
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 1: it won't. But yeah, it's just artifacts by products of

941
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 1: previous existence, whether that's physical objects or or waste signatures

942
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 1: like heat that could be around for a long time

943
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:46,440
Speaker 1: depending up you know, no matter what the intentions of

944
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 1: the civilization are. Well, this has been fun, Rob, Yeah,

945
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:51,919
Speaker 1: this has been a fun one. Yeah. So obviously we'd

946
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:53,680
Speaker 1: love to hear from everyone out there. First of all,

947
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:56,920
Speaker 1: we mentioned, you know, this is the domain of science fiction.

948
00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 1: Of science fiction is considered a lot of these questions

949
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:03,400
Speaker 1: for for deack Gates. So if there are particular examples, uh,

950
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 1: let us know, examples that touch on some of these

951
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,440
Speaker 1: themes and ideas. Uh, you know, let us know if

952
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:13,200
Speaker 1: there is that that that that that corporate alien sci

953
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 1: fi Reagan era thing that we were considering, you know,

954
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:19,279
Speaker 1: probably exists. Uh, if you have an I D for it,

955
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 1: let us know. We'd love to hear from you. In

956
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,279
Speaker 1: the meantime, if you would like to listen to other

957
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 1: episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, you can find

958
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 1: the Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast feed wherever you

959
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 1: get your podcasts, and in that feed you'll find core episodes.

960
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 1: On Tuesdays and Thursday. On Friday, we do a little

961
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:36,400
Speaker 1: weird house cinema that's just you know, a consideration of

962
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:39,400
Speaker 1: a weird film. We do a little listener mail, usually

963
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:42,919
Speaker 1: on Mondays and on Wednesdays. That's when we we usually

964
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:45,920
Speaker 1: have artifact, unless it's being preempted. Huge thanks as always

965
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 1: to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you

966
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:50,680
Speaker 1: would like to get in touch with us with feedback

967
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 1: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic

968
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:55,320
Speaker 1: for the future, just to say hello, you can email

969
00:53:55,400 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 1: us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

970
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:08,240
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio.

971
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart Radio, this is the

972
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 1: i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen

973
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 1: me to your favorite shows.