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Speaker 1: I'm George Severis and I'm Julia Clare and.

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Speaker 2: This is United States of Kennedy, the podcast about our

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Speaker 2: cultural fascination with the Kennedy Dynasty. Every week we go

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Speaker 2: into one aspect of the Kennedy story, and today we

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Speaker 2: are talking about perhaps the most famous member of the

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Speaker 2: Kennedy extended universe, Marilyn Monroe.

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Speaker 1: Only one photograph survives of Marilyn President John F. Kennedy

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Speaker 1: and then Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy at the famous

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Speaker 1: Madison Square Garden celebration where she sang Happy Birthday, mister President,

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Speaker 1: but that hasn't stopped decades of conspiracy theories surrounding her

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Speaker 1: involvement with the two of them, especially how it may

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Speaker 1: or may not intersect with her untimely death in nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty two.

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Speaker 2: So today we are going to take a look at

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Speaker 2: exactly how those theories started, how they got out of hand,

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Speaker 2: how they relate to everything from the FBI to communist

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Speaker 2: to Norman Mailer, and if they bring us any closer

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Speaker 2: to the truth. Then we'll chat about the twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: two Netflix documentary The Mystery of Marilyn Monroe, The Unheard Tapes,

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Speaker 2: and talk about whether or not it complicates or.

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Speaker 1: Clarifies the narrative.

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Speaker 2: So let's dive in. Yes, let's dive in. And I

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Speaker 2: want to open with a Reddit comment that our dear

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Speaker 2: researcher found for us that really summarizes his thoughts and

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Speaker 2: increasingly our thoughts about this whole topic. So this is

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Speaker 2: again from a random person on Reddit, because we are

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Speaker 2: nothing if not dogged reporters on this podcast list, if

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Speaker 2: that's right. So this is a comment. It says we

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Speaker 2: know they met only a handful of times at public events.

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Speaker 2: Maryland was familiar with the Kennedy family through Pat newcom.

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Speaker 2: She became friends with Pat Kennedy and met Bobby Kennedy

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Speaker 2: a few times. Bobby was also friendly with Kim Novak

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Speaker 2: and Judy Garland. Everything else is disproven, hearsay, photoshopped pictures,

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Speaker 2: and even fabricated FBI papers. It's batshit the links people

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Speaker 2: will go to prove this affair.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's throw our heads in the ring.

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Speaker 2: That said, we're going to finally uncover the truth once

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Speaker 2: and for all in this episode.

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Speaker 1: So strap in and look no further than this episode.

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Speaker 1: We're getting everything straightened out here. And I want to.

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Speaker 2: Say, if we are kind of wishy washy about whether

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Speaker 2: things are true or false. It isn't because we haven't

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Speaker 2: done enough research. It's actually because we've done too much.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not even joking. Every source you read about

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Speaker 2: Marilyn Monroe's alleged affairs and or one night stands with

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Speaker 2: both RFK and JFK, everything contradicts the last thing you read.

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Speaker 2: Everyone has an ulterior motive, whether it's making a name

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Speaker 2: for themselves or trying to prove that they were closer

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Speaker 2: to Maryland than they actually were. Yes, I mean, our

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Speaker 2: producer pointed out that there's a cold cottage industry of

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Speaker 2: people writing semi fictional accounts of their friendship with whether

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Speaker 2: it's Marilyn or jack or Jackie Kennedy. And so this

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Speaker 2: is kind of what we have to go off of

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Speaker 2: when discussing things like this, and.

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Speaker 1: Also compounded by the fact that everyone involved in this

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Speaker 1: is long long dead and modern record keeping didn't exist yet.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, to be honest, one of the most

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Speaker 2: convincing things to me was the fact that cy Hirsh

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Speaker 2: in his nineteen ninety seven book The Dark Side of Camelot,

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Speaker 2: despite being very critical of the Kennedy family, and spending

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Speaker 2: five pages on Marilyn and JFK did not mention the

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Speaker 2: alleged one night stand they had, and that I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: interesting if he presumably he has turned every stone to

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Speaker 2: find any kind of evidence to suggest that the Kennedys

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Speaker 2: were hypocritical, that the Kennedys were, you know, not who

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Speaker 2: they said they were. If he isn't mentioning it at all,

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Speaker 2: maybe it does mean that.

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Speaker 1: It never happened, or that there was enough evidence that

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Speaker 1: said you know.

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Speaker 2: Of course, then I kept reading our research doc and

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Speaker 2: immediately was locked back in and right now ready to

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Speaker 2: argue that it actually all did happen.

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Speaker 1: I know. It is one of those cases in which

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Speaker 1: the more research you do, the less you know. It's

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Speaker 1: really confusing, and you understand why these conspiracy theories have

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Speaker 1: persisted as long as they have. The waters are just

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Speaker 1: so muddied. Yeah, And after having done the research and

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Speaker 1: read what we had to read for this episode, I'm like, eh.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's like you start to be convinced by something

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Speaker 2: and then you remember, oh, right, this was written by

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Speaker 2: a full on anti communist conspiracy theorist, a pamphlet like

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Speaker 2: these are the ramblings of a crazy person and right,

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Speaker 2: but they sound like they could be plausible.

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Speaker 1: And everyone has a motive. Everyone wants to claim proximity

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Speaker 1: to these extremely famous, powerful people. Considering Marilyn so often

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Speaker 1: described herself as not having a lot of friends, you

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Speaker 1: wouldn't think that by how many people claimed that they

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Speaker 1: were essentially her best friend.

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Speaker 2: The friends actually came out of the woodwork after her

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Speaker 2: untimely death. Interestingly enough, it's funny how that happens. So

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Speaker 2: I want to go through kind of a timeline of

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Speaker 2: the theories and then maybe that'll help bring us somewhat

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Speaker 2: closer to the truth. One thing that I hadn't fully

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Speaker 2: realized is that until basically the seventies, the main theories

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Speaker 2: about Marilyn and the Kennedy's had to do with her

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Speaker 2: alleged affair with RFK rather than JFK. I mean, despite

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Speaker 2: the happy birthday mister President of it All, and the

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Speaker 2: fact that they cross paths a few times, the main

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Speaker 2: narrative was that she was having some sort of affair

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Speaker 2: with Bobby Kennedy RFK, who was JFK's attorney general. Of course,

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Speaker 2: and people will go so far as to imply that

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Speaker 2: they were going to get married and he was going

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Speaker 2: to leave his family, and then she was so depressed

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Speaker 2: about the fact that he wouldn't leave his family. That

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Speaker 2: had to do with her mental and emotional deterioration. So

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Speaker 2: that's the main narrative until later on. So apparently there

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Speaker 2: was evidence that rumors of an RFK Maryland affair existed

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Speaker 2: as early as a nineteen sixty four FBI document, but

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Speaker 2: then it was more popularized when this guy named Frank Apple,

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Speaker 2: who is an anti communist conspiracy theorist. So again Grain

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Speaker 2: of Salt wrote this seventy page pamphlet called The Strange

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Speaker 2: Death of Marilyn Monroe, and he sort of like picks

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Speaker 2: up these rumors that existed and then wildly theorizes about them.

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Speaker 1: He ties it all to, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, communist conspiracy theories, because of course, Marilyn, due to

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Speaker 2: her proximity to Hollywood, was of course tied to people

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Speaker 2: that were alleged communists or communist sympathizers, you know, anyone

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Speaker 2: from Arthur Miller to director she worked with.

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Speaker 1: And so part of.

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Speaker 2: The conspiracy theorizing here was connecting Maryland's communist connections with

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Speaker 2: the Kennedy's, who were also according to this person not

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Speaker 2: hard enough on.

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Speaker 1: Communism, a seventy page pamphlet. It evokes a madman.

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Speaker 2: It's the equivalent of like a sixteen part blog series

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Speaker 2: or something like. You can easily imagine the contemporary version

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Speaker 2: of Frank Cappel having a substack is Ryan.

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Speaker 1: That's right, it's the contemporary Frank Cappel.

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Speaker 2: And I want to just get the timing right. So

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Speaker 2: nineteen sixty four is when Cappel wrote The Strange Death

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Speaker 2: of Marilyn Monroe.

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Speaker 1: Two years after her death.

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Speaker 2: Two years after her death, I want to say. One

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Speaker 2: report said of his other book, Treason, as the reason

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Speaker 2: that it was quote so full of demonstrable falsehoods as

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Speaker 2: to be ludicrous if it were not such a sad

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Speaker 2: commentary on the gullibility of the audience Cappel expects to reach.

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Speaker 1: So the reviews are in, well, now I want to

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Speaker 1: read it.

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Speaker 2: So after that we have Fred Lawrence Giles, and he

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Speaker 2: was a writer. Fred Lawrence Giles wrote this book called

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Speaker 2: Norma Jean The Life of Marilyn Monroe, which also kind

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Speaker 2: of played with the RFK rumors and brought them to

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Speaker 2: the mainstream. That we have a quote here. This is

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Speaker 2: a very funny quote because he's trying to be coy

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Speaker 2: with who he's talking about, So he said Marilyn was

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Speaker 2: involved with the married man. He was not in the

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Speaker 2: film industry. He was an Easterner with few ties on

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Speaker 2: the coast. He had come west mainly to work out

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Speaker 2: the details of the film production of a literary property

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Speaker 2: in which he had had a hand, and to escape

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Speaker 2: the pressures of his work as a lawyer and a

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Speaker 2: public servant for the Attorney. His holiday on the West

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Speaker 2: Coast was a lark, a vacation from his wife and children.

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Speaker 2: He and Maryland were discreet, almost never venturing beyond the

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Speaker 2: stuccoed wall surrounding his friend's beach house. Their relationship had

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Speaker 2: nowhere to go. Publicity about the affair might destroy all

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Speaker 2: his chances for an important political career, So there you go.

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Speaker 2: And people speculated it with JFK. But it couldn't be

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Speaker 2: JFK because it was an attorney and this was before

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Speaker 2: the Kennedys run the White House, so that is why

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Speaker 2: it would affect his.

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Speaker 1: Budding political career, etc. Et cetera.

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Speaker 2: So we have Frank Cappel and Fred Lawrence Giles. They

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Speaker 2: popularized the theory and then Julia, Which of our favorite

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Speaker 2: male writers enters the ring.

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Speaker 1: Now, of course we are talking about Norman Mailer. Norman

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Speaker 1: Taylor wrote a hasty book called Maryland, a biography. He

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Speaker 1: just kind of cribs charge swaths from Giles's book and

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Speaker 1: then cycles back to there being some conspiracy centering around

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Speaker 1: the supposed affair and Marilyn Roe's death, though not how

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Speaker 1: Frank Cappel had initially conceived a bit. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So, one of the important and obvious differences between Norman

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Speaker 2: Mailer and Cappel is their political differences. Cappel comes at

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Speaker 2: it from an anti communist perspective and believes there's some

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Speaker 2: sort of communist conspiracy, whereas Mayler thinks it's the opposite,

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Speaker 2: thinks it was a conspiracy against RFK. He is sort

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Speaker 2: of open about the fact that his book is light

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Speaker 2: on facts and light on research. On sixty minutes, there

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Speaker 2: was a famously contentious interaction that Mayler had with an

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Speaker 2: interviewer who I believe was Mike Wallace, where Wallace keeps

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Speaker 2: pushing him, being like, do you stand by the things

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Speaker 2: you wrote in this book, and Mahler says, I was

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Speaker 2: doing something you don't normally do with the book, which

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Speaker 2: getting into the end of a book with a half

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Speaker 2: finished exploration, and I decided it was important enough to

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Speaker 2: get out there half finished rather than not get into

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Speaker 2: it at all. And then, you know, in this video

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Speaker 2: we watch, the narrator says, the best criticism of the

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Speaker 2: book we've heard so far is from Norman Mailer's own

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Speaker 2: It got out there half finished.

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Speaker 1: And this is nineteen seventy three.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so we're like over ten years after Marilyn's death

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Speaker 2: at this.

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Speaker 1: Point, Marilynd's former husband, who's also a famous playwright, Arthur Miller, wrote,

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Speaker 1: Norman Mailer saw himself as Monroe quote in drag, acting

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Speaker 1: out his own Hollywood fantasies of fame and sex, unlimited empower.

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Speaker 2: You know, one of the amazing things about this era

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Speaker 2: is these sort of dick swinging matches between famous men.

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Speaker 1: Between these men with no upper body strength. No, it

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Speaker 1: is true.

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Speaker 2: Obviously I do not mourn the end of toxic masculinity,

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Speaker 2: but I do miss the entertainment value of men who

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Speaker 2: think so highly of themselves getting into public s matches,

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Speaker 2: sort of Real Housewives style.

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Speaker 1: Arthur Miller, Norman Mailer, Scilla Bross. That's right, Rip, two

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Speaker 1: are toxic mail authors. Yes, rest in power, So that's

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Speaker 1: what happens with Norman Mahler. A fun fact about the

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Speaker 1: book is that it's called Marilyn a Biography, but there

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Speaker 1: is debate about whether it is meant to be Marilyn

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Speaker 1: Colon a biography or Marilyn And then the subtitle A

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Speaker 1: biography by Norman Mailer. And because of the sort of

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Speaker 1: ethics of new journalism where you'd inept adhere to the

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Speaker 1: same standards of objectivity and things like that, there is

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Speaker 1: plausible deniability where he himself doesn't think he is writing

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Speaker 1: an objective account. So the idea of the subtitle being

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Speaker 1: a biography by Norman Mailer sort of complicates the book

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Speaker 1: as a factual account of things. Yeah, he says point

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Speaker 1: blank that he did some research and then filled in

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Speaker 1: the blanks via speculation. He says, high speculated.

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Speaker 2: And the other funny thing with the book is that

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Speaker 2: he was originally hired to essentially write a glorified ope

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Speaker 2: essay for a book of erotic photos of Marilyn Monroe,

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Speaker 2: and then as he was writing the essay, it got

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Speaker 2: too long and then became a book of its own,

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Speaker 2: So it all has the sort of spirit of like

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Speaker 2: one coke fueled week where he decided, wait, I actually

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Speaker 2: have more to say.

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Speaker 1: Right, It really just strikes me as a money grab. Yeah. Completely.

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Speaker 1: It's funny.

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Speaker 2: We live in a time when obviously it's very difficult

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Speaker 2: to know what to believe and what not to believe

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Speaker 2: when you read things on the internet, And there's something

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Speaker 2: almost refreshing about remembering things like this have always existed,

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Speaker 2: like people can just have always been able to sort

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Speaker 2: of just publish whatever and be like, all right, now,

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Speaker 2: you guys, deal with it.

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Speaker 1: People were writing pamphlets. Yeah, the image that that evokes

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Speaker 1: for me, just like a crazy guy passing out these

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Speaker 1: seventy page pamphlets on the street.

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Speaker 2: So often a conspiracy theory will start in the most

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Speaker 2: unlikely place, but then all it takes is like a

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Speaker 2: couple of people repeating it or saying it on television

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Speaker 2: for it to reach a mainstream mid.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after

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Speaker 1: this break, and we're back with more United States of Kennedy.

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Speaker 2: So this brings us to Earl Wilson. Earl Wilson was

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Speaker 2: a gossip columnist and he has stood in the sidelines

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Speaker 2: watching people speculate about RFK now for close to a decade,

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Speaker 2: but he, in his heart knows that the real affair

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Speaker 2: happened between JFK and Maryland. And so finally, after the

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Speaker 2: Mailer book, he decides the gossip mill has been going

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Speaker 2: on long enough and it's time for him to tell

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Speaker 2: the truth, which is that it was actually JFK rather

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Speaker 2: than RFK having the affair. And so he releases a

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Speaker 2: book in nineteen seventy four called show Business Laid Bare,

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Speaker 2: and he says, it's the direct quote. Now that it's

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Speaker 2: out in the open, now that it's in the public domain,

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Speaker 2: with the whole world having been misinformed about it, chosen

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Speaker 2: to tell the true story of Marilyn Monroe's liaison with

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Speaker 2: the brothers Kennedy. It's a story I have withheld for

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Speaker 2: several years until Norman Mahler wrote a book repeating the

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Speaker 2: gossip that the sexiest of the sex symbols was having

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Speaker 2: a great love affair at the end of her life

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Speaker 2: with Attorney General Robert F.

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Speaker 1: Kennedy.

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Speaker 2: But the time has come to set the record strait.

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Speaker 2: I am telling what I know. I am taking nothing

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Speaker 2: from other men's books. And by the way, this was

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Speaker 2: a job at mailer who heavily quoted other people's books.

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Speaker 2: I am not snatching at dreams. I knew Marilyn Monroe

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Speaker 2: for thirteen years and through many, many interviews, in meetings

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Speaker 2: and cocktails, I photographed Marilyn Monroe scores of times, and

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Speaker 2: preposterous as it was, Marilyn Monroe photographed me. So anyway,

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Speaker 2: the man whose companionship she enjoyed most in her last

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Speaker 2: torture year was not Bobby Kennedy, but was his brother,

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Speaker 2: the young President of the United States, John F.

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Speaker 1: Kennedy. And so this brings us to JFK. Basically, starting

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Speaker 1: in nineteen.

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Speaker 2: Seventy four, the rumor mill kind of switched from being

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Speaker 2: RF focus to JFK focus and and through today. I

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Speaker 2: mean there's still our books being written about it. To say,

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Speaker 2: there's still fictionalized accounts of it. Today, this very sticky

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Speaker 2: story has persisted that Marilyn had some sort of affair with.

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Speaker 1: CHFK right, And I think the thing that we will

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Speaker 1: come back to time and again is that there actually

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Speaker 1: isn't a lot beyond hearsay. Certain people corroborated what other

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Speaker 1: people have said via interviews. It's all kind of subjective

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Speaker 1: first person accounts, usually of people who were being interviewed

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Speaker 1: many years, sometimes decades after the events had happened, So

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Speaker 1: it's very hard to know what to believe. I think

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Speaker 1: it is one of those things where it's a kind

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Speaker 1: of Okham's razor, and I do still think that the

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Speaker 1: conspiracy theories are mostly just that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, But of course it's difficult because all of this

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Speaker 2: exists with the backdrop of Kennedy's known reputation has right

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Speaker 2: Flanderer as someone who was having affairs fully out in

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Speaker 2: the open in the White House, as someone who was

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Speaker 2: known to enlist his team to destroy evidence or kind

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Speaker 2: of fabricate narratives that were more convenient for his family.

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Speaker 2: The other thing which I haven't forgotten from when we

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Speaker 2: were reading that book with Matt Sipman to Kennedy imprisonment

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Speaker 2: than Kennedy imprisonment, is there's a whole chapter in the

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Speaker 2: book about how the Kennedy boys were really raised to

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Speaker 2: view women as objects, right, and the dad was really like,

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Speaker 2: have as much sex with women as you can.

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Speaker 1: It's your birthrate as a man. Yeah. And also, just

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Speaker 1: to set the scene, there's the kind of objectification the

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Speaker 1: familial commitment to objectifying women among the men, but also

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Speaker 1: the Kennedy family's fascination with Hollywood and celebrities and celebrities.

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Speaker 1: You know, we talked about on previous episodes that Joe

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Speaker 1: Kennedy had a long time affair with Gloria Swanson and

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Speaker 1: was just a dog and kind of passed that on

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Speaker 1: to his sons. And we've also talked about the fact

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Speaker 1: that JFK was very interested in Hollywood gossip and he

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Speaker 1: had this connection to the rat Pack and always wanted

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Speaker 1: to know who was doing what, who was sleeping with whom.

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Speaker 1: And it just seems like many of the Kennedy's over

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Speaker 1: the course of the generations have wanted to be actors,

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Speaker 1: not politicians. So there is this kind of generational fascination

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Speaker 1: with Hollywood that really dubtails and makes the Maryland of

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Speaker 1: it all a lot more plausible to believe completely.

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Speaker 2: And again, you know, in terms of the Kennedy manage

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Speaker 2: relationship to women, you hear something like, well, actually the

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Speaker 2: brothers shared Maryland and they both had affairs with her,

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Speaker 2: and you think, if it was any other family, you

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Speaker 2: would think, well, that's probably not true. That sounds like

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Speaker 2: something a gossip columnists would make up, and it probably was,

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Speaker 2: but in this case you are kind of like, well,

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Speaker 2: if there's any family that would do something like that,

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Speaker 2: it is the Kennedy's.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's both not only the Kennedy fascination with Hollywood,

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Speaker 1: but it's also from what we know about Maryland, she

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Speaker 1: was so kind of intellectually aspiration. She was so desperate

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Speaker 1: to be taken seriously, and she was interested in serious

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Speaker 1: things since she married Arthur Miller. She wanted to be

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Speaker 1: kind of in a world of smart people.

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Speaker 2: I mean, yes, part of the narrative in the documentary,

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Speaker 2: which we'll get to later, is that she was having

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Speaker 2: conversations with JFK and with other important political figures about politics,

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Speaker 2: including nuclear proliferation, and.

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Speaker 1: That's I mean, that was where I almost threw my

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Speaker 1: remote across the room. We're meant to believe that she

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Speaker 1: was partly well.

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Speaker 2: I mean to be clear that the documentary does not

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Speaker 2: actually make this assertion, but one could start believing that

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Speaker 2: part of the reason she was allegedly killed was because

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Speaker 2: she knew too much about nuclear proliferation and about communism

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Speaker 2: and about QUBA. I mean, there was a certain paranoia

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Speaker 2: during that era in general, a paranoia about Hollywood and

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Speaker 2: about politics. I mean, there's the time of McCarthy, there's

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Speaker 2: the time of the culd War. So obviously, when you

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Speaker 2: have Marilyn Monroe on the one hand and President John F.

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Speaker 2: Kennedy on the other, you're not going to get people

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Speaker 2: reacting normally.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So with all that to say, I think one thing

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Speaker 2: we can do is at least go through the facts

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Speaker 2: we do know, and so we have. According to biographer

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Speaker 2: Donald Spoto, jfkn Marilyn met at least four times, and

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Speaker 2: these are times that can be corroborated and that we

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Speaker 2: can at least say they crossed paths. The first time

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Speaker 2: was October nineteen sixty one, after a photography session for

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Speaker 2: a magazine story, when Marilyn asked Alan Snyder to deliver

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Speaker 2: her to a party at Patricia and Peter Lawford's Santa

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Speaker 2: Monica Beach house. So, Julia, who are Patricia and Peter Lawford.

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Speaker 1: Peter Lawford was an English actor who was kind of

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Speaker 1: secondarily affiliated with the rat Pack, and his first wife

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Speaker 1: was Patricia Kennedy. Not a Kennedy that we hear about

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Speaker 1: very often. I really didn't know anything about her before this,

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Speaker 1: but apparently another one of the Kennedys with a big

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Speaker 1: Hollywood fascination who had gone out there, met Peter Lawford.

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Speaker 1: The two of them got married and they settled down

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Speaker 1: in Santa Monica, and they had this beach house there

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Speaker 1: that was the site of many a fabulous party.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and the beach house is very important to Marilyn's

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Speaker 2: relationship with the kennedy because those are the two Kennedys

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Speaker 2: that actually lived in Los Angeles where Marilyn Monroe lived.

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Speaker 2: So that's a lot of her alleged interactions with Both

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Speaker 2: OURFK and JFK were in and around that community, and

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Speaker 2: both of us were surprised we didn't know about this

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Speaker 2: because there was obviously connections between the Kennedys and the

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Speaker 2: rat Pack. They came up when we were discussing the

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Speaker 2: relationship between the Kennedy's and organized crime, because the rat

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Speaker 2: Pack was sort of affiliated with organized crime depending on

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Speaker 2: who you ask. But somehow I had missed the fact

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Speaker 2: that Pat Kennedy, a literal sister to Bobby and Jack,

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Speaker 2: was married to sort of a secondary member of the

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Speaker 2: rat Pack.

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Speaker 1: All right, So that's October nineteen sixty one.

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Speaker 2: They interacted party at Pat and Peter Lawford's house.

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Speaker 1: And it should be noted that because this is JFK

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Speaker 1: and rfk's sister, when they are in town, very often

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Speaker 1: they stay with Pat and Peter right.

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Speaker 2: And of course, as we'll learn later on, you know,

395
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Speaker 2: people that think RFK was somehow involved in her death

396
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Speaker 2: point to that. They're like, oh, he was staying at

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Speaker 2: his sister's house in Santa Monica when Marylynd died in

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Speaker 2: Los Angeles.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: The second encounter occurred in February nineteen sixty two, when

401
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,440
Speaker 2: Marylynd was again invited to a dinner party for the president,

402
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Speaker 2: this time at the Manhattan home of Fiefee Fell, the

403
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Speaker 2: wealthy socialite widow of a famous industrialist. I mean, Fiefee

404
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Speaker 2: Fell is the most fabulous New York social She knows

405
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Speaker 2: where the bodies are buried.

406
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Speaker 1: I love her. I don't know anything about her, and

407
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Speaker 1: I love her and I would die for her.

408
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Speaker 2: Please do not write in with what her political opinions

409
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Speaker 2: are or what her family is doing now.

410
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Speaker 1: I don't really want I'm sure, I'm sure it's all perfect.

411
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Speaker 1: I'm sure that everyone is above board. But also we

412
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Speaker 1: need to bring back nameslag Fife fell, we need more

413
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Speaker 1: women named Fifi Fel. It's evoking an image of the

414
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Speaker 1: woman who falls out the window on Sex of the City. Yes,

415
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Speaker 1: and so.

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Speaker 2: Those are their first two encounters, both at parties, seemingly

417
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Speaker 2: above board. There's no major gossip coming from either of them.

418
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Speaker 2: But then their third meeting is a bit more salacious.

419
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Speaker 1: So the third meeting occurred on Saturday, March twenty fourth,

420
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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty two, when both the President and Marylyn were

421
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Speaker 1: house guests of being Crosby in Palm Springs. On that occasion,

422
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Speaker 1: she telephoned Ralph Roberts from the bedroom she was sharing

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Speaker 1: with Kennedy.

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Speaker 2: Right, So, Ralph Roberts, this is where things get complicated.

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Speaker 1: As if it weren't already.

426
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Speaker 2: So there's parts of the Maryland story that are in

427
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:50,160
Speaker 2: like a contemporary way. The obsession with health and wellness

428
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,720
Speaker 2: that actors had even during that time really mirrors the

429
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 2: kind of like ir Wan Pilates culture of today. So

430
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Speaker 2: Ralph Roberts was her massage therapist, and he had like

431
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 2: I'm into this book The Thinking Body. Apparently she called

432
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Speaker 2: him to be like, hey, my friend and I are

433
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:10,200
Speaker 2: having a disagreement about the Solace muscle sol us and

434
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 2: then she's like, can you explain the solace muscle theory

435
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 2: from the thinking body yet again, because I'm with a

436
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 2: friend who is dealing with all sorts of muscle and

437
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:24,119
Speaker 2: back ailments. And so he explains it. And then allegedly

438
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 2: she puts JFK on the phone and he casually as

439
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 2: though it's not a big deal that he is literally

440
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 2: in the same bedroom as Marilyn Monroe has a whole

441
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,120
Speaker 2: conversation with the monsieur.

442
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 1: I guess in today's version of la this guy would

443
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:40,199
Speaker 1: be like her reiki healer.

444
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 2: Maybe yes. And this is according to Ralph. This is

445
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 2: a direct quote. Marilyn told me that this night in

446
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 2: March was the only time of her affair with JFK.

447
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,639
Speaker 2: Of course, she was titillated beyond belief because for a

448
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 2: year he had been trying through Lawford, that's Peter Lawford,

449
00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 2: his brother in law, to have an evening with her.

450
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 2: A great many people thought after that weekend that there

451
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 2: was more to it, but Marilyn gave me the impression

452
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 2: that it was not a major event for either of them.

453
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 2: It happened once that weekend, and that was that. I

454
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:10,680
Speaker 2: gotta say, even if it happened once. I have a

455
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 2: hard time believing it wasn't a major event for either

456
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 2: one of them. I mean, she's having secs the president

457
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 2: and he's having sex with the most beautiful and famous

458
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 2: women in the planet.

459
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,120
Speaker 1: But okay, that's what we're supposed to believe that they're like, uh,

460
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 1: who cares? What's funny? Is so?

461
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,399
Speaker 2: That night, obviously, as one might imagine, is the source

462
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 2: of much speculation, and our wonderful researcher even made a

463
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 2: spreadsheet with different accounts of it and what each account

464
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 2: says or doesn't say. And the one thing that is

465
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 2: constant in all of the accounts were that the phone

466
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 2: conversation was about this book, The Thinking Body.

467
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 1: What incredible press for the second body.

468
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 2: You know that eras the body keeps a score, I

469
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 2: feel is the thinking Body, and we should say, you know,

470
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 2: to plug it. The Thinking Body by Mabel Ellsworth Todd.

471
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 1: So there you go, shooting to the top of everyone's

472
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 1: to read. Cue.

473
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 2: One of the other accounts quotes Marilyn is saying Jack

474
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 2: and I have only done it twice so far.

475
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 1: Again not corroborated anywhere, but there you go. I know

476
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 1: all of this is so thorny because outside of these

477
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 1: four interactions, which by the way, three out of four

478
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 1: of them all happened in the year of her desk,

479
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 1: I want.

480
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 2: To just say one more thing about the thinking body,

481
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 2: which I guess is my favorite topic in the world.

482
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 2: The argument they were having, apparently was about the thigh

483
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 2: bone and the hip bone, and where does the thigh

484
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,920
Speaker 2: bone connect with the hip bone, and so they were

485
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 2: having some sort of debate about again the solace muscle.

486
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 2: But then, according to our researcher, the solace muscle is

487
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 2: in the lower cap so it does not make sense

488
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 2: for it to come up in a discussion about the

489
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 2: hip and the thigh bones. So it just goes to

490
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 2: show you, you know, even then, even in the sixties, people

491
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 2: in Los Angeles did not fully understand how the human

492
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:51,439
Speaker 2: body works and.

493
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 1: The solas muscle connects to the hip. Yes, exactly. Wow, Yeah,

494
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,200
Speaker 1: I love this. And you know, you really see where

495
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 1: there's a direct line between the thinking body and RFK Junior.

496
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's right. Wow, that is a really

497
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 2: good point. RFK Junior is still talking about the solas

498
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 2: muscle in.

499
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 1: The White House. Now we're cooking with gas. He's like

500
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 1: if we.

501
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 2: Stop eating food dyes, we will finally connect our fie

502
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 2: muscle to our hip muscle. We're going to take a

503
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 2: short break, stay with us, and we're back with United

504
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 2: States of Kennedy.

505
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: So the fourth and final meeting took place in May

506
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty two at the aforementioned legendary birthday gala

507
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: for JFK at Madison Square Garden. It's crazy to think that,

508
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: and again I don't want to make too many connections

509
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 1: between Trump and JFKA, but it is the kind of

510
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 1: thing Trump would do, is have a birthday party at MSG.

511
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,880
Speaker 2: So the comparison between JFKN Trump is something that once

512
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 2: you see you can't see it. It's really came up

513
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 2: in our episode with Matt Siman because it really sort

514
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 2: of becomes apparent in that book, the Kennedy Imprisonment. But

515
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 2: the similarities are just so clear. I mean, Trump famously

516
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 2: had relationships and marriages with actresses and models. There's the

517
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,919
Speaker 2: obsession with the idea of a star studded event, like

518
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 2: Trump wants a big celebration in Madison Square Garden where

519
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 2: a lineup of people come and celebrate him.

520
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: Right, if pyrotechnics had existed, they would have been used

521
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 1: at this nineteen sixty two event.

522
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 2: And I want to say also, something I didn't know

523
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 2: is that this event was a full lineup of incredibly

524
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 2: a list people.

525
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:42,959
Speaker 1: From that time.

526
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:47,120
Speaker 2: So outside that context, it does seem crazy that Marilyn

527
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 2: would come out and do this like sexy, sensual version

528
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:54,159
Speaker 2: of Happy Birthday. But the lineup included Peggy Lee, Bobby Darren,

529
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 2: Maria Kallis, Jack Benny Ella Fitzgerald, Harry Belafonte. I mean,

530
00:27:58,000 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 2: she wasn't Why I was that to say she wasn't

531
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 2: the most famous person there. Maybe she was technically the

532
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 2: most totally there. But you know, yes, Brad Pitt is

533
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,199
Speaker 2: at the Oscars, but so is George Clooney. Like it

534
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 2: wasn't this inappropriate thing where it was a serious event

535
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 2: and everyone else was a nobel laureate and then Marilyn

536
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 2: Monroe comes out and desecrates.

537
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: Which is how it's been portrayed as such in the

538
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 1: decades since. But it was like very much an entertainment

539
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 1: first event.

540
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 2: It was billed as like a birthday celebration. It was

541
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 2: like a week or two before his birthday, I think.

542
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think it's easy to take that clip

543
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,719
Speaker 2: out of context and make it seem way more inappropriate

544
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 2: than it is.

545
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, she was just being weird, Yeah exactly. Yeah, So

546
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 1: that's it. So those are the four times, the four

547
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: confirmed times.

548
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 2: Again, who knows, maybe they've had many other secret meetings,

549
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 2: but these are the four confirmed times that they've crossed paths.

550
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 2: Two of them were at pretty uneventful parties, the third

551
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 2: one allegedly they were in the same bedroom when they

552
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 2: were house guests of Bing Crosby. And then the fourth

553
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 2: one was the Madison Square Guard celebration. Again, as Julia said,

554
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 2: that is the only event where there's a surviving photograph

555
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 2: of the two of them. And the photograph is interesting

556
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 2: too because people often crop it to make it seem

557
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 2: like a much more intimate moment than it was uncropped.

558
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 2: It's very clear that they're in a crowded room and

559
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 2: JFK is crouching to hear her better because they're in

560
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 2: like a crowded loud room. But if you zoom in

561
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 2: on them, it seems like a much more intimate.

562
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,719
Speaker 1: Moment, right, and it's her and the two brothers, and

563
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 1: it looks like it again from a wider angle, it

564
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: just looks like the three of them are talking at

565
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 1: a party. It doesn't look particularly sealacious in my opinion.

566
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 2: So I know we're ending the timeline in the seventies,

567
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 2: but needless to say, since then, there have been people

568
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 2: that have come out aleegend that they are the love

569
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 2: child of Marilyn Monroe and JFK. It is one of

570
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 2: those things that is so easy to get attention for.

571
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 1: It's kind of the germ that launched a thousand national

572
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: Inquirer covers, right exactly. And it's been sixty years now,

573
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 1: almost are over six sers since her death and since

574
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: all of these the legend events happened, and it just

575
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 1: it's just kind of a story that won't die. Yeah,

576
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: I think because there are so many claims in the

577
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 1: ether and because the zone has been flooded with information

578
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: and speaking of which it's still happening, right.

579
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 2: Because the other thing that we watched for this episode

580
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 2: was the twenty twenty two Netflix documentary The Mystery of

581
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 2: Marilyn Monroe The Unheard Tapes.

582
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this documentary came about with this book written

583
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 1: by an Irish writer named Anthony Summers in nineteen eighty

584
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: five called Goddess and it's all about Marylyn. He became

585
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: interested in the conspiracy surrounding her death in nineteen eighty two,

586
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: a few years before when the La County District Attorney's

587
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: office reopened the case of her death twenty years after

588
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: it happened. So this writer, Anthony Summers, thinks that he's

589
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 1: just going to work on it for a few months

590
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: and see what turns up. And he ends up working

591
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: on it for three years, and he interviews hundreds.

592
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 2: Of probly six hundred people.

593
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, he got six hundred and fifty taped recorded interviews

594
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: over three years with people from all manner of connections

595
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:21,719
Speaker 1: or non connections to Marylyn and the Kennedy's. And he

596
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: uncovers a lot of volume, but not, in my opinion,

597
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 1: not a lot of depth.

598
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 2: You know, there's something about bragging about the number six

599
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 2: hundred fifty whatever it was, that is a red flag

600
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 2: to me because did most of them say either the

601
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 2: same thing or wildly contradictory things. Because that's actually less

602
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 2: helpful than having, you know, five incredibly well sourced interviews

603
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 2: or something. I get the sense, you know, we've sort

604
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 2: of come into contact with a lot of conspiracy type figures,

605
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 2: not directly, but I just mean through the stuff we've

606
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 2: read and watched for this podcast, and I felt like

607
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 2: he was one of the more sympathetic ones. It seemed

608
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 2: like he was interested in the truth rather than, yeah,

609
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 2: than trying to push an agenda.

610
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: I think he is, and I think this show some

611
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 1: footage from his home in Ireland, and he does have

612
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: like boxes and boxes of real research. It doesn't seem

613
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 1: like conspiracy theory, red string corkboard situation. And honestly, I

614
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: think the most credible thing about him is that he

615
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: at the end of the documentary basically ends up concluding

616
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: the same thing that her cause of death has been

617
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: reported to be, which is that it was either an

618
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: accidental or intentional killing of herself. Yeah.

619
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 2: I know, it's funny. In many ways, the documentary is

620
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 2: so unsatisfying because he did a big bomb show at

621
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 2: the end, which then almost makes you feel complicit in

622
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 2: all the hairs over the years, because you're like, oh,

623
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 2: I see, I would like it more if there was

624
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 2: a conspiracy. Like I'm seeing this guy present years and

625
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 2: years and years of research and it's actually coming to

626
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 2: a pretty boring conclusion, and that doesn't satisfy me. I

627
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 2: would have preferred it if Bobby Kennedy shot her in

628
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 2: her Prumer's Olympic.

629
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: It was interesting to try to work through my own reaction.

630
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: So I think the centerpiece of his interviews was the

631
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 1: surviving family members of Maryland's psychiatrist. For the last two

632
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: years of her life. This man's wife, his son, and daughter,

633
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 1: and apparently marilynd had kind of become integrated into their

634
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 1: family life. Again, we don't know how true or false

635
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: this is. It was known that her existence was quite lonely,

636
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 1: so it's certainly possible that she would spend a lot

637
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: of time with their family. They claim that she had

638
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: mentioned having a boyfriend figure who she called the General,

639
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: and that was what everyone in the Justice Department called

640
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: Attorney General Bobby Kennedy. So there's a lot about the

641
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 1: psychiatrist that gets very murky as well. And psychiatrists of

642
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: the fifties and sixties, I'll say it should have all

643
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 1: been arrested because completely they were all so unethical and

644
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 1: prescribing with abandon and also the fashionable psychiatry of the

645
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: day was Freudian psychoanalysis, which is.

646
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 2: I didn't get was he a psychoanalyst that was not explained.

647
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 1: It wasn't explained. There was the one part in the

648
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 1: documentary where it talked about how she was talking to

649
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 1: certain people in her life about how haunted she was

650
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: by certain childhood memories. That does suggest to me that

651
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 1: she was in Freudian psychoanalysis.

652
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,879
Speaker 2: Yes, the psychiatrist's family members are what the documentary sort

653
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 2: of built around. It does this interesting thing. It's framed

654
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 2: around the actual recordings of the phone calls, and then

655
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 2: occasionally they will have actors lip sync the recordings in

656
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 2: it was goofy as hell. It was definitely goy as

657
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 2: hell because you know, these are probably like theater actors

658
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 2: who were hired to do this, and they were like,

659
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 2: this is my time to shine. I'm in very clothing

660
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 2: and I'm doing very dr madic lip sync reading of

661
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 2: these phone calls. But the thing with documentary is that

662
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 2: you know, you have all this amazing audio footage, it

663
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 2: is tough to present it in a compelling way, So

664
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 2: make sure to see how they got there. But in

665
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 2: terms of how the documentary adds to the narrative we

666
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 2: already have. It spends the first third to a half

667
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 2: describing where Marilyn Monroe was in her life. It goes

668
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 2: through her upbringing, her rise as a star. She's one

669
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,919
Speaker 2: of the first people that is hounded by the paparazzi.

670
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 2: For example, she's unable to go anywhere. She is both

671
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,879
Speaker 2: celebrated and made fun of in the press and by

672
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 2: the public because she has this persona of being like

673
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 2: a bimbo. It talks about her marriage to Arthur Miller,

674
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,279
Speaker 2: which was very volatile. At some point he allegedly called

675
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 2: her a whorror in a letter.

676
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 1: That's what the documentary alleges is that right after their marriage,

677
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 1: they were in London when she was beginning to shoot

678
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 1: I think The Prince and the show Girl. Yes, and

679
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 1: she found some notes that allegedly that he had written

680
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 1: for himself where he talked about how disappointed he was

681
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: that he had married her and called her a whore

682
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 1: and all of these things, which I just want to say,

683
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 1: this really underscores my belief that men think that they

684
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 1: want a really hot woman, almost none of them can

685
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 1: handle one. They're too insecure. It's been true for all

686
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 1: of history. Joe Demagio was the same way.

687
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 2: He Yes, it talks about her, so Joe Demagio as well.

688
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,399
Speaker 2: So this is someone who had two marriages that did

689
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 2: not you know, that did not lead to happiness with

690
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 2: two men that did not treat her well. So it

691
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 2: paints a portrait of someone who has had two failed marriages,

692
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 2: is emotionally and mentally in not a great state, is

693
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 2: unable to really leave her house and have like a

694
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,240
Speaker 2: normal public life because she's hounded by the press. She's also,

695
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,320
Speaker 2: much like many Hollywood stars at the time, abusing drugs,

696
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 2: both uppers and downers. She was abusing sleeping pills. There's

697
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 2: this really pairing footage of her leaving a mental hospital

698
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 2: that she had checked into, and everyone is asking her,

699
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 2: how are you feeling, and she's like, I'm feeling fantastic.

700
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 1: I feel wonderful. I feel wonderful. Yes, it's really so sad.

701
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:11,839
Speaker 1: I had never seen that footage before, and it is,

702
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,280
Speaker 1: as George said, harrowing. When you just see the volume

703
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,919
Speaker 1: of photographers that are swarming her as she is leaving

704
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 1: a mental institution. It would mess anyone up, let alone

705
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,720
Speaker 1: someone who had a very traumatic childhood as she did.

706
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,879
Speaker 1: And you know, the misfortunes that she suffered goes back

707
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 1: a long way and also had been fairly recent as well.

708
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 1: She had really wanted children. She had miscarried when she

709
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 1: became pregnant with her husband Arthur Miller's child. She was

710
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: becoming increasingly volatile to work with. There's a lot of

711
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 1: stories from the set of The Misfits that they talk

712
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 1: about in the documentary where she would show up very

713
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 1: late and she would be a little bit mentally incapacitated

714
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 1: from all the drugs. It's very sad.

715
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the two things that people who worked with

716
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 2: her seem to agree on are a that she was

717
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:03,879
Speaker 2: a troubled person, but be that she had this incredible

718
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 2: well of talent and also intellectual curiosity. I mean, there

719
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 2: was a quote from I can't remember who, but one

720
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 2: of the directors she worked with, that was like, there's

721
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 2: so much more she has to give, and her best

722
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,239
Speaker 2: work will be later in her career. She has this

723
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 2: deep well of sophistication and talent, and she really wanted

724
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 2: to be an artist and the true actress. She didn't

725
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 2: want to be a bimbo Hollywood star.

726
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 1: When she first began in Hollywood, she didn't really have

727
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: any training, and then the more famous she got, the

728
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: more access she got to legitimate feeder circles. She really

729
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,359
Speaker 1: wanted to be a serious actress, and as I said,

730
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 1: she studied at the Actors Institute with Lee Strasberg, who

731
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 1: originated the method, and was kind of taken in by

732
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:50,720
Speaker 1: he and his wife, and everyone who went to class

733
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: with her said that she was just a very serious person.

734
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 1: And the implication from that director that George mentioned was

735
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 1: that her best work was probably ahead of her, even

736
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 1: as like pilled out as she was in The Misfits.

737
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 1: That's considered to be one of her best performances.

738
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,280
Speaker 2: And I think her intellectual ambition, as you mentioned earlier,

739
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 2: also ties into her alleged connection to the Kennedys, because

740
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 2: she wanted to be around people that she felt were

741
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 2: smart and knowledgeable. And I think that also has to

742
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:20,839
Speaker 2: do with her marriage to Arthur Miller. I think she

743
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 2: really respected him and realized that he was like one

744
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,399
Speaker 2: of the great American writers, and I think liked being

745
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 2: around him, like learning from him. And I think, of course, he,

746
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 2: as you mentioned, did not really respect her on an

747
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 2: intellectual level, although you know, as often happens with these

748
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 2: relationships between maybe you know, sort of like an older

749
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 2: intellectual man and younger beautiful woman. He does compliment her,

750
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 2: but in a condescending way.

751
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:43,760
Speaker 1: It's territal.

752
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 2: It's like, you know, people don't know this, but she

753
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 2: has such an interesting mind and it's my job to

754
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 2: fill it with ideas, right.

755
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 1: I mean, she was infantilized over and over again by

756
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,879
Speaker 1: the public, the press, and the men in her life

757
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 1: who all I think just wanted to possess her. And

758
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 1: then when they realized that she was her own person,

759
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 1: became very disappointed by that, and that is why she was,

760
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 1: of course murdered. That's right, she was murdered by the CIA.

761
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 1: And that part of the episode starts now, and that

762
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 1: is our final word on the matter. We'll be back

763
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 1: with more United States of Kennedy after this break, and

764
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 1: we're back with more United States of Kennedy.

765
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 2: So, Julia, I do want you to tell us a

766
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 2: little bit about fred O'tash, who is one of the

767
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,839
Speaker 2: main characters that I hadn't heard of that was talking

768
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 2: about in the documentary.

769
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 1: Fred Otash was a former Los Angeles police officer, the

770
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 1: private investigator and also kind of a Hollywood fixer. He

771
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 1: was this really storied PI and by his own telling,

772
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 1: he had worked on both sides of the mafia. He

773
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:01,479
Speaker 1: had worked for and against the mafia. He had worked

774
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 1: for and against the federal government. He had worked for

775
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 1: and against the Hollywood studios. He was just kind of

776
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 1: a gun for hire who would work with anyone who

777
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: paid him except no commies. For Fred the famous nineteen

778
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 1: seventy four film Chinatown, the Jack Nicholson character was in

779
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 1: part based on fred Otash, which is really cool. He

780
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 1: wrote a memoir about his life called Investigation Hollywood Memoirs

781
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 1: of Hollywood's Top Private Detective. So the way that the

782
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: documentary sets this up is that Bobby Kennedy's Justice Department

783
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,800
Speaker 1: had a real fixation with Jimmy Hoffa, the famed head

784
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 1: of the Teamsters Union, notoriously corrupt. Bobby really had a

785
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 1: personal vendetta against Jimmy Hoffa and went after him with

786
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:49,839
Speaker 1: the full force of the Justice Department. So the documentary alleges,

787
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 1: and it seems at least in part confirmed by a

788
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 1: release of JFK assassination records, is that fred O'tash was

789
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: hired to investigate Peter Lawford and JFK and Bobby on

790
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,240
Speaker 1: behalf of Jimmy Hoffa in order to drum up dirt

791
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:10,359
Speaker 1: on the Kennedy family to discredit them. Well.

792
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 2: As part of that, he, among other things, bugged Marilyn

793
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 2: Monroe's home, right, So her home was bugged. There are

794
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 2: calls in the documentary that described how there were like

795
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 2: four bugs in one was under the rug and one

796
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 2: was in the chandelier.

797
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 1: And allegedly bugged Peter Lafford's house as well. My question

798
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 1: with that that I had lingering from the documentary was like,

799
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 1: where are those tapes? Well?

800
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 2: A big thing that both our research and the documentary

801
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 2: make clear is that a lot of stuff was allegedly destroyed,

802
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 2: whether by the FBI, CIA, the Kennedy administration, whoever, after

803
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 2: Marilyn Monroe's death. I mean, even the fact that there's

804
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 2: only one surviving photograph of them seems fishy to me.

805
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 2: But for all the talk of the six hundred and

806
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 2: fifty unheard tapes, we don't get any footage from the

807
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 2: bug because there were a placed than her home.

808
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, take from the bugs, which would have been sick.

809
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,280
Speaker 2: Part of the confusion was how and when she died,

810
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,919
Speaker 2: which would have been all in a room that was bugged, right.

811
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 1: And the thing is is that there is a plausible

812
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 1: version of events in which the FBI did end up

813
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 1: subpoenaing those tapes and destroying them. But even saying that,

814
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, now I'd sound like a conspiracy theorist,

815
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: but it's not completely out of the realm of possibility.

816
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 1: I guess if the FBI wanted to subpoena those tapes

817
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 1: and bring them into their possession, what would stop them

818
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: from destroying it? If they I mean, the FBI is

819
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 1: done worse, sure, certainly, but it should be said, oh,

820
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:44,400
Speaker 1: Tash alleges that he has vootage of her. Yes, yeah,

821
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 1: that there is like audio recording of that. And again

822
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 1: I do think that that would have been released right

823
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 1: if he had had it, and or I think he

824
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,799
Speaker 1: would have made copies of it, knowing that it may

825
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: be confiscated at some point. So basically, in terms.

826
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,839
Speaker 2: Of new evidence that was in the duck, the two

827
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:05,280
Speaker 2: main things are the account of Maryland's psychiatrist's family, who

828
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:08,240
Speaker 2: are pretty sure that there was some sort of affair happening,

829
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:13,879
Speaker 2: and the unreleased and unconfirmed tapes that Otash had that

830
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 2: he alleges show audio footage of her literally having sexual

831
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 2: relations with JFK. And so all of this builds to

832
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 2: this idea that in the midst of all of this,

833
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 2: and in the midst of Marilyn Monroe having conversations with

834
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 2: the president about politics and nuclear war and communism and

835
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,240
Speaker 2: things like that, she became a.

836
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 1: Target, right And I have to say that over the

837
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:45,439
Speaker 1: course of the documentary I did become a bit more

838
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 1: convinced that it was like lair that she was having

839
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 1: an actual affair with Bobby than Jack Larry Tie, the

840
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 1: biographer of Bobby Kennedy who wrote the book, Bobby kind

841
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 1: of does it really go there. He doesn't even really opine,

842
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 1: He's just like, it's possible. But he always went back

843
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 1: to Ethel. And there was also an allegation in the

844
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:11,479
Speaker 1: documentary that Bobby had in the time before Marilyn's death

845
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 1: kind of given her an order that she could no

846
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 1: longer contact either he or his brother. And there was

847
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:23,320
Speaker 1: a tape recording that Anthony Summers got from JFK's personal

848
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,879
Speaker 1: secretary and said that she would, you know, Marilyn would call,

849
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:31,719
Speaker 1: she would talk to her. It's all possible. But I

850
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 1: think even where the documentary indulges certain conspiracy theories, it

851
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 1: does not indulge the main one, which is that she

852
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 1: was murdered.

853
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 2: Completely, and it does say in no uncertain terms. Anthony Summers,

854
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 2: the guy that has amassed all these interviews, says, ultimately,

855
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 2: I do not believe she was murdered. I just think

856
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 2: the official account of the minute by minute, hour by

857
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 2: hour narrative around how she died that night has been

858
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:57,720
Speaker 2: fudged in some way, And to be honest, it's barely

859
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 2: worth getting into. It's about how like whether or not

860
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 2: she was placed in an ambulance and then died on

861
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 2: the ambulance rather than in the hospital, and whether or

862
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,439
Speaker 2: not the ambulance turned back and they put her dead

863
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 2: body back in the bed to be discovered instead of

864
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 2: driving all the way to the hospitals. These things that

865
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 2: certainly sound suspicious, but there just wasn't enough evidence to

866
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 2: actually say that there was some larger conspiracy. I want

867
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 2: to shout out one interviewee, which is Dean Martin's wife,

868
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:22,880
Speaker 2: Jean Martin.

869
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I almost forgot to bring her up.

870
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so glad I remembered because I was going

871
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 2: to forget as well. She really was one of the

872
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:35,399
Speaker 2: more entertaining, very colorful, yes, very colorful recordings that we hear,

873
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 2: and very bitchy and she's one of these people that

874
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 2: you can tell has wanted to speak yeah, for so long.

875
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,879
Speaker 2: On Wikipedia, her name isn't even blue. Like, I don't

876
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:50,439
Speaker 2: think did much public facing stuff when she was alive,

877
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 2: but she was also And maybe this has more to

878
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:56,759
Speaker 2: do with my proclivity towards believing Kookie fabulous women more

879
00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 2: than anything else, but I was like, Okay, well, I

880
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 2: believe you because she had this account of how the Kennedy's,

881
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:06,279
Speaker 2: both Bobby and Jack were just so shameless in their

882
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 2: pursuit of women just in mixed company while their wives

883
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:11,760
Speaker 2: were in the adjoining.

884
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 1: Room in the next room, and in the home of

885
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 1: their sister and.

886
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 2: Brother in law completely and then like hitting on a

887
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 2: woman that their brother had literally just hit on in

888
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 2: front of everyone else. I mean, she just describes this

889
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 2: environment where she would be at the home of Pat

890
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:31,800
Speaker 2: and Peter Lawford, and first Jack would be like clearly

891
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 2: flirting with Marylyn while his wife was.

892
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 1: In the other room.

893
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 2: Then he would leave, and then Bobby would clearly be

894
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:40,720
Speaker 2: flirting with Marylyn. Which is also interesting because so many

895
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 2: other accounts of Bobby as we know paint him as

896
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 2: the complete opposite. He's the devout Catholic of the family.

897
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,319
Speaker 2: He's the one that would never drink too much or

898
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 2: cheat on his wife.

899
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 1: Right, But also we know so much about the Kennedy

900
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 1: mythmaking that were like, how how much can we trust

901
00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 1: any of this information? And it should be noted that

902
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 1: Jeannie I think her name was Jeannie Martin kind of

903
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 1: looks like a little bit of a Marilyn mixed with

904
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:09,840
Speaker 1: a Jackie. Oh yes, she does. Wow, really interesting. She

905
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,360
Speaker 1: looks like a blonde Jackie almost. The way that she

906
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 1: talked about Marilyn was I think seething with jealousy. Oh completely.

907
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 2: And then I mean in terms of other kind of important,

908
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 2: notable interviews, there is Eunice Murray, who is Marilyn Monroe's housekeeper.

909
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 2: There are people that are affiliated with her longtime publicist.

910
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 1: We should say that Eunice Murray. Her account is kind

911
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 1: of what has endured throughout the decades as the quote

912
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 1: unquote reliable account, which is that she was Marilyn's housekeeper.

913
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 1: She woke up in the middle of the night at

914
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 1: three am, saw that Marilyn's light was on. She went

915
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 1: to go to the door, the door was locked. She

916
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 1: called marilynd psychiatrists who came over broken through the window,

917
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:55,960
Speaker 1: saw that she was face down in the bed, motionless,

918
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 1: and that has been the account that has endured. Again,

919
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:02,479
Speaker 1: as George mentioned, it's not worth going into the parts

920
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: of that account that had been disputed well. And also

921
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 1: the thing with Eunice Murray.

922
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 2: For a long time, the common knowledge was if you

923
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 2: want to know the truth, call Eunice Murray because she

924
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 2: was there. But then in nineteen eighty five in a

925
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 2: BBC documentary, she completely reversed her narrative and said that

926
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 2: RFK was there and that Marilyn was alive when the

927
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 2: doctors first arrived.

928
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 1: There were also conflicting accounts about whether Bobby was at

929
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 1: her house the day or night that she died, or

930
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 1: whether he had just called and her phone was off

931
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 1: the hook when she died. And then there was also

932
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:41,320
Speaker 1: all of this about getting Bobby out of the area

933
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 1: following her death, which allegedly involved getting him on a

934
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: helicopter from LA to San Francisco and then getting out

935
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:52,399
Speaker 1: of there, which I know it all sounds quite fantastical.

936
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:56,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, the thing is ultimately to bring it full circle

937
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 2: to the Kennedy's I think what the documentary lands on

938
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 2: is she did die of an overdose that was either

939
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 2: accidental or self inflicted. However, there was also a cover up,

940
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 2: and the cover up was due to her connection, whether

941
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 2: real or alleged, with the Kennedys. I mean, even if

942
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:16,680
Speaker 2: everyone involved was completely innocent, they never met. Ever, just

943
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:18,840
Speaker 2: the fact that there were rumors about it were enough

944
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 2: for the Kennedy team to be activated and to be like,

945
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 2: we have to make sure any investigation is quickly completed

946
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 2: and there's no possibility that it could ever be connected

947
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 2: to the Kennedys.

948
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's like fairly plausible that she had

949
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:37,280
Speaker 1: affairs of varying lengths with either or both of them.

950
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 1: But I think that she was obviously like a very

951
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 1: troubled person and her death kind of got just like

952
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 1: swept up in the existing conspiracy theories that surround the

953
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 1: Kennedys completely. Yeah, I think a gun to my head.

954
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:52,240
Speaker 2: If I were to say what I believe, I think

955
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 2: it sounds like the one night stand with JFK probably

956
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 2: happened and it was no more than that. Although you know,

957
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:03,319
Speaker 2: whether or not there was a mutual obsession, even if

958
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 2: it was not consummated again, is a whole other story.

959
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 2: I'm sure she liked the idea of the American president,

960
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 2: and I'm sure he liked the idea of like the

961
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:14,319
Speaker 2: most beautiful and famous actress in the world with.

962
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:15,520
Speaker 1: The RFK stuff.

963
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 2: I don't know that one really is confusing to me.

964
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 1: It is confusing. I have to say, from what I

965
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:23,880
Speaker 1: know about her and what I know about him, it

966
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:26,399
Speaker 1: makes a little bit of sense. I think she liked

967
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 1: an intellectual guy. Yeah, and she liked a guy who

968
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 1: was a little ugly, That's true. And I could see

969
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 1: her being fixated on him, and I could absolutely, of

970
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:42,239
Speaker 1: course see the opposite him being fixated on her, especially

971
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 1: because I think obviously he always felt like second banana

972
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:46,720
Speaker 1: to Jack.

973
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:49,680
Speaker 2: I mean, it is the ultimate cooler, more popular brother

974
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 2: to be like, well, I'm sleeping with literally Marilyn Monroe.

975
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:57,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. Everything else is like, I mean, it's all speculation,

976
00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 1: it's all hearsay, but it is kind of I think

977
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:02,600
Speaker 1: the reason why it's endured to the degree that it

978
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:04,800
Speaker 1: has is because so much of it is very plausible.

979
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and again, it doesn't help that all these people

980
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 2: are constantly destroying documents and destroying evidence, Like you're inviting

981
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:13,799
Speaker 2: way more speculation. I know, and then if you just

982
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:16,279
Speaker 2: like didn't do anything. Yeah, if I have to say,

983
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 2: this is not a Marilyn Monroe podcast, but I want

984
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:20,400
Speaker 2: to end with you just saying, go watch a Marilyn

985
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 2: Monroe movie.

986
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:22,240
Speaker 1: She was so much.

987
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 2: More than the Andy Warhol painting that we all know, Like,

988
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 2: she was genuinely such a talented person at such a

989
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:30,400
Speaker 2: great on screen presence.

990
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 1: Like if you've only ever seen pictures of her or

991
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 1: seen like paparazzi footage of her, it's you're doing yourself

992
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 1: a real disservice because I I mean, I saw some

993
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:41,759
Speaker 1: like it hot when I was a kid, and I

994
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:44,760
Speaker 1: recently in the last few years. So gentlemen prefer blonde,

995
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:48,359
Speaker 1: but she is just completely electric on screen. You can't

996
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 1: take your eyes off her. And she's funny. She's really funny, No,

997
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:56,400
Speaker 1: completely great comedic timing, great actress, like just exactly who

998
00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:00,239
Speaker 1: you want as an entertainer. So I recommend watching her work,

999
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 1: which is what she would want you to do.

1000
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 2: I think, yes, No, I also watch gentlemen preferred blondes

1001
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 2: embarrassingly for the first time in my thirties and my dhood,

1002
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 2: and I was like, they just don't make him like

1003
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:10,760
Speaker 2: that anymore.

1004
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 1: They really don't. And Jane Russell's incredible to.

1005
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:15,759
Speaker 2: Jane Russell's incredible, but everything from the costumes of the

1006
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 2: set design, to the songs, to the pace and the comedy.

1007
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:22,640
Speaker 1: Of it all. Yeah, the jokes are really funny. Yeah.

1008
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 2: So obviously we are talking about her through the lens

1009
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:28,840
Speaker 2: of the Kennedy So for our purposes, we're gonna define

1010
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:29,719
Speaker 2: her based.

1011
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:31,319
Speaker 1: On her relationship with men. But you know, you don't

1012
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:34,440
Speaker 1: have to. You can just watch her work. She was

1013
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 1: more than that. It's true.

1014
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:38,320
Speaker 2: Whether or not you had any affairs or anyone that stands,

1015
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 2: I will say her lasting legacy could be proven to

1016
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 2: be much more positive than that of any of the Kennedy.

1017
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, So that's it for this week's episode.

1018
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:52,200
Speaker 2: Subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all things

1019
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:53,400
Speaker 2: Kennedy every week.

1020
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 1: United States of Kennedy is hosted by Me, Julia Claire

1021
00:53:56,680 --> 00:54:00,839
Speaker 1: and George Savers. Original music by Joshua Tipolski, editing by

1022
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 1: Graham Gibson.

1023
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:03,720
Speaker 2: Mixing and mastering by Doug Bame.

1024
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 1: Research by Dave Bruce and Austin Thompson.

1025
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 2: Our producer is Carmen Laurent.

1026
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:12,280
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Jenna Cagele. Created by Lyra Smith.

1027
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 1: United States of Kennedy is a production of by Heart podcasts.