1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:25,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin in March of eighteen eighty six. Vincent then go 2 00:00:26,036 --> 00:00:29,036 Speaker 1: move from Antwerp to Paris to live with his brother 3 00:00:29,156 --> 00:00:31,116 Speaker 1: Theo in montmart. 4 00:00:31,116 --> 00:00:35,076 Speaker 2: He very soon became befriended with some of the other 5 00:00:35,196 --> 00:00:39,756 Speaker 2: artists living there who would become very famous within the 6 00:00:39,796 --> 00:00:44,556 Speaker 2: next decades, like, for example, Paul Signac On Reader to 7 00:00:44,636 --> 00:00:48,556 Speaker 2: Lose Lutrech, Emil Bernard and some others, and he learned 8 00:00:48,556 --> 00:00:49,636 Speaker 2: a lot from. 9 00:00:49,436 --> 00:00:52,876 Speaker 1: Them, Stefan Koldorff German art. 10 00:00:52,716 --> 00:00:57,716 Speaker 2: Expert, and that led to his willingness to make experiments 11 00:00:57,716 --> 00:01:01,516 Speaker 2: in becoming an artist. When he painted in rather dark 12 00:01:01,756 --> 00:01:06,036 Speaker 2: brownish grayish tones during his time before in the Netherlands, 13 00:01:06,476 --> 00:01:08,876 Speaker 2: he now was willing to try out what to do 14 00:01:08,916 --> 00:01:11,716 Speaker 2: with color, how to form things with color. 15 00:01:12,276 --> 00:01:15,996 Speaker 1: In Vengo's effort to master oil painting, he painted still lives, 16 00:01:16,396 --> 00:01:20,076 Speaker 1: mostly flowers he couldn't afford models. In a space of 17 00:01:20,116 --> 00:01:23,596 Speaker 1: a few years, he produced dozens and dozens of paintings. 18 00:01:23,916 --> 00:01:27,236 Speaker 2: The Paris period means that van Goch just had decided 19 00:01:27,636 --> 00:01:30,476 Speaker 2: to become an artist. He no longer wanted to try 20 00:01:30,556 --> 00:01:34,156 Speaker 2: other professions like he did before, like being a preacher 21 00:01:34,396 --> 00:01:37,916 Speaker 2: or a teacher, or helping people. He now made the 22 00:01:37,916 --> 00:01:40,076 Speaker 2: decision I want to be a painter, and he knew 23 00:01:40,116 --> 00:01:41,956 Speaker 2: that Paris is the place to be. 24 00:01:44,316 --> 00:01:47,436 Speaker 1: My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, 25 00:01:47,756 --> 00:01:56,276 Speaker 1: my podcast about things Overlooked and misunderstood. This episode is 26 00:01:56,316 --> 00:01:59,876 Speaker 1: a continuation of my investigation into the hoarding habits of 27 00:01:59,996 --> 00:02:03,916 Speaker 1: art museums. It's about one of those dozens of still lives. 28 00:02:03,996 --> 00:02:08,516 Speaker 1: Vang painted in his Paris period, a small canvas seventeen 29 00:02:08,556 --> 00:02:15,116 Speaker 1: inches by fourteen inches, vas with carnations. That little painting, 30 00:02:15,276 --> 00:02:26,236 Speaker 1: it turns out, has a strange and troubled history. Vengo 31 00:02:26,356 --> 00:02:29,636 Speaker 1: painted vas with carnations right after his arrival in Paris. 32 00:02:30,196 --> 00:02:33,196 Speaker 1: At some point after his death four years later, it 33 00:02:33,276 --> 00:02:35,236 Speaker 1: was acquired by a wealthy German couple. 34 00:02:35,596 --> 00:02:40,156 Speaker 2: Had Uhlmann and her husband Abert Ulman were one of 35 00:02:40,196 --> 00:02:45,916 Speaker 2: the most important art collector couples in Frankfurt in Western Germany. 36 00:02:47,356 --> 00:02:52,596 Speaker 2: They made their money out of business. They very early 37 00:02:52,676 --> 00:02:57,156 Speaker 2: decided to invest money in works of art which were 38 00:02:57,196 --> 00:03:01,476 Speaker 2: not commonly regarded as very important works. So they were 39 00:03:01,716 --> 00:03:04,956 Speaker 2: very daring collectors, and that shows that it was not 40 00:03:04,996 --> 00:03:08,156 Speaker 2: only investment, it was also the love of art which 41 00:03:08,276 --> 00:03:12,236 Speaker 2: led them to buying works, for example, by Fangoch, but 42 00:03:12,356 --> 00:03:15,156 Speaker 2: also by several Impressionist painters. 43 00:03:15,756 --> 00:03:19,316 Speaker 1: Headwick Ohman sold Vas with Carnations on consignment to an 44 00:03:19,436 --> 00:03:21,596 Speaker 1: art dealer who took it back to New York just 45 00:03:21,636 --> 00:03:25,396 Speaker 1: before the Second World War. That dealer, in turn sold 46 00:03:25,396 --> 00:03:28,356 Speaker 1: it to William Getz, one of the most powerful producers 47 00:03:28,356 --> 00:03:33,956 Speaker 1: in Hollywood. Getz and his wife Edith, daughter of the 48 00:03:34,036 --> 00:03:37,036 Speaker 1: legendary Louis B. Mayer, had one of the greatest private 49 00:03:37,036 --> 00:03:39,356 Speaker 1: collections of Impressionist art in the world. 50 00:03:39,676 --> 00:03:43,276 Speaker 3: My grandmother was called the Hostess of Hollywood, and she 51 00:03:44,516 --> 00:03:48,996 Speaker 3: spent her entire life hosting lavish dinner parties people the 52 00:03:49,196 --> 00:03:53,476 Speaker 3: likes of Laurence Olivier and Trim Caa PODi and Jil Brenner. 53 00:03:53,716 --> 00:03:56,156 Speaker 1: That's gets his granddaughter, Victoria Bleden. 54 00:03:56,756 --> 00:03:58,956 Speaker 3: I mean, I had dinner with Laurence Olivier when I 55 00:03:58,956 --> 00:04:01,716 Speaker 3: was six years old. You know, I'd be sitting amongst 56 00:04:01,756 --> 00:04:04,956 Speaker 3: the fans and latour and the dagga and the manna, 57 00:04:05,236 --> 00:04:08,436 Speaker 3: and this is this is this is our childhood. You know, 58 00:04:08,476 --> 00:04:11,836 Speaker 3: finger bowl, the whole nine yards, and then they would 59 00:04:11,876 --> 00:04:14,956 Speaker 3: have movies in the living room. And in the living room, 60 00:04:15,516 --> 00:04:17,476 Speaker 3: perhaps you've seen any pictures of it. But I mean, 61 00:04:17,476 --> 00:04:21,076 Speaker 3: this is where the money, the blue Picasso, the other 62 00:04:21,116 --> 00:04:23,956 Speaker 3: Picasso which she had, a harlequin it was called, and 63 00:04:24,036 --> 00:04:25,396 Speaker 3: all these things through on the wall, and all of 64 00:04:25,396 --> 00:04:27,236 Speaker 3: a sudden we sit in the dive in the living room, 65 00:04:27,236 --> 00:04:30,356 Speaker 3: and all the couches and everything, and a painting would 66 00:04:30,356 --> 00:04:32,396 Speaker 3: come up and the screen would come down, and then 67 00:04:32,436 --> 00:04:35,596 Speaker 3: we'd watched movies kind of for our child. 68 00:04:35,516 --> 00:04:39,076 Speaker 1: Is the priceless art would disappear into the ceiling and 69 00:04:39,156 --> 00:04:41,596 Speaker 1: a movie screen would descend in its place. If that 70 00:04:41,676 --> 00:04:44,396 Speaker 1: isn't the greatest metaphor for Hollywood, I don't know what is. 71 00:04:46,956 --> 00:04:50,076 Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty six, Kirk Douglas started a movie about 72 00:04:50,156 --> 00:04:53,476 Speaker 1: van Go called Lust for Life. 73 00:04:54,396 --> 00:04:57,476 Speaker 4: Few people know the real story of this intense, strong 74 00:04:57,556 --> 00:05:01,476 Speaker 4: willed man. Now his tumultuous career is revealed for the 75 00:05:01,516 --> 00:05:04,996 Speaker 4: first time with frankness and intimacy, with all that. 76 00:05:05,076 --> 00:05:06,756 Speaker 1: If you look at the corner of the movie poster 77 00:05:06,916 --> 00:05:11,116 Speaker 1: for Lust for Life, there it is Carnations. But by 78 00:05:11,156 --> 00:05:13,676 Speaker 1: then Getz it sold it. He didn't hang on to 79 00:05:13,756 --> 00:05:15,676 Speaker 1: his van Go the way he did his other treasures. 80 00:05:15,996 --> 00:05:19,076 Speaker 1: It wasn't for him. The painting passed to the heiress 81 00:05:19,116 --> 00:05:22,876 Speaker 1: to the Kmart fortune, Katherine Kresgi, who among other things, 82 00:05:23,116 --> 00:05:26,356 Speaker 1: was once married to a Swedish baron. She convinced him 83 00:05:26,396 --> 00:05:28,516 Speaker 1: to leave London and come live with her in her 84 00:05:28,596 --> 00:05:33,876 Speaker 1: native Detroit. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the Swedish baron's order for miss 85 00:05:33,956 --> 00:05:38,036 Speaker 1: Gresgy did not survive the move to Michigan. When Kresgi 86 00:05:38,156 --> 00:05:41,156 Speaker 1: died in nineteen ninety, she willed vaz with carnations to 87 00:05:41,196 --> 00:05:44,796 Speaker 1: the Detroit Institute of Art. She gave it without restriction, 88 00:05:45,156 --> 00:05:47,716 Speaker 1: meaning the di Ia as it's known, could do with 89 00:05:47,836 --> 00:05:50,756 Speaker 1: it what they wanted, sell it, trade it. They didn't 90 00:05:50,796 --> 00:05:54,076 Speaker 1: have to make it part of their permanent collection. Kresgy 91 00:05:54,276 --> 00:05:57,196 Speaker 1: clearly didn't care any more for the painting than Getz did, 92 00:05:58,036 --> 00:06:00,596 Speaker 1: and neither did the di Ia. They put it in 93 00:06:00,676 --> 00:06:04,516 Speaker 1: her basement for twenty years. Vincent van Go painted many 94 00:06:04,636 --> 00:06:07,836 Speaker 1: remarkable canvasses. This is not one of them. 95 00:06:07,996 --> 00:06:11,956 Speaker 2: He also painted larger flower still lives in Paris, but 96 00:06:12,036 --> 00:06:16,436 Speaker 2: this is a smaller one. Thus kind of canvas which 97 00:06:16,476 --> 00:06:18,996 Speaker 2: I think was not meant for sale or as a 98 00:06:19,036 --> 00:06:23,916 Speaker 2: present for acquaintances or girlfriends or his models or so. 99 00:06:24,356 --> 00:06:26,196 Speaker 2: It was just for trying out things. 100 00:06:26,796 --> 00:06:30,756 Speaker 1: Our experts like to damn with faint praise. Vaz with 101 00:06:30,876 --> 00:06:33,036 Speaker 1: Carnations gets a lot of faint praise. 102 00:06:33,636 --> 00:06:37,716 Speaker 2: It's very nice, it's very profound, but it's not a 103 00:06:37,916 --> 00:06:45,196 Speaker 2: very well spectacular composition or color combination. It's just a 104 00:06:45,276 --> 00:06:47,476 Speaker 2: kind of let me try out what happens if I 105 00:06:47,516 --> 00:06:50,076 Speaker 2: do this, if I do this, and so it's a 106 00:06:50,196 --> 00:06:52,156 Speaker 2: nice but not really an important work. 107 00:06:53,156 --> 00:06:56,196 Speaker 1: The current head of the Detroit Institute of Art, Salvador 108 00:06:56,316 --> 00:06:59,716 Speaker 1: Cellar Ponds, says, the problem is that Viz with Carnations 109 00:07:00,196 --> 00:07:02,716 Speaker 1: just doesn't look like a van Go. When you say 110 00:07:02,716 --> 00:07:05,036 Speaker 1: it doesn't look like a van Go, what. 111 00:07:04,916 --> 00:07:05,396 Speaker 5: Do you mean? 112 00:07:05,476 --> 00:07:07,076 Speaker 6: Does it look like the sunflowers? 113 00:07:07,716 --> 00:07:09,556 Speaker 1: Yeah? 114 00:07:09,676 --> 00:07:13,396 Speaker 6: I mean it's not a typical work like you would 115 00:07:13,716 --> 00:07:19,636 Speaker 6: like the self portrait or the works that he did 116 00:07:19,756 --> 00:07:21,876 Speaker 6: when he was in the south of France. Those are 117 00:07:21,916 --> 00:07:27,916 Speaker 6: the most famous works that the general public knows Bangou did. 118 00:07:28,556 --> 00:07:30,836 Speaker 1: Then there's the fact that the painting had a stamp 119 00:07:30,876 --> 00:07:33,596 Speaker 1: on the back, a sign that it was painted on 120 00:07:33,676 --> 00:07:37,436 Speaker 1: a fancy bit of stretch canvas. Then Go in his 121 00:07:37,556 --> 00:07:42,036 Speaker 1: Parisiers was broke. What was he doing with a fancy canvas? 122 00:07:42,796 --> 00:07:46,796 Speaker 1: It took years to resolve that particular discrepancy and In 123 00:07:46,836 --> 00:07:49,876 Speaker 1: the meantime, lots of people began to think vuzz with 124 00:07:49,956 --> 00:07:51,636 Speaker 1: carnations was a fake. 125 00:07:52,276 --> 00:07:58,236 Speaker 6: Later we discovered that that canvas with the stap on 126 00:07:58,316 --> 00:08:01,196 Speaker 6: the back was not actually part of the work. It 127 00:08:01,276 --> 00:08:05,476 Speaker 6: was added later. So you had the original canvas, then 128 00:08:05,516 --> 00:08:09,276 Speaker 6: you have a lightning canvas glued to the original canvas, 129 00:08:09,316 --> 00:08:12,596 Speaker 6: and then you had the third canvas with a stencil 130 00:08:12,676 --> 00:08:15,796 Speaker 6: or a stamp on the back. So once we removed that, 131 00:08:16,196 --> 00:08:18,836 Speaker 6: we understood that was not part of the original work. 132 00:08:21,116 --> 00:08:23,716 Speaker 1: So here we have a van Go that does not 133 00:08:23,796 --> 00:08:27,516 Speaker 1: look like a van Go, that was never intended to 134 00:08:27,556 --> 00:08:31,196 Speaker 1: be sold or shown or even given away, that a 135 00:08:31,276 --> 00:08:34,396 Speaker 1: German couple bought somewhere around the turn of the century 136 00:08:34,916 --> 00:08:37,356 Speaker 1: and then sold that turned up in the home of 137 00:08:37,396 --> 00:08:40,276 Speaker 1: a Hollywood mogul and served as a prop in a 138 00:08:40,356 --> 00:08:44,516 Speaker 1: Kirk Douglas movie poster, then finally landed in Detroit with 139 00:08:44,596 --> 00:08:47,636 Speaker 1: a Kmart heiress who threw it in as an afterthought 140 00:08:47,876 --> 00:08:51,796 Speaker 1: when she made her bequest to the Dia, whereupon the 141 00:08:51,836 --> 00:08:55,636 Speaker 1: painting languished in a cellar for a quarter century because 142 00:08:55,676 --> 00:08:58,516 Speaker 1: of a dubious bit of canvas glued to the back. 143 00:08:59,636 --> 00:09:01,676 Speaker 1: What's your personal feeling about this painting. 144 00:09:02,276 --> 00:09:02,956 Speaker 5: Do you like it? 145 00:09:02,996 --> 00:09:03,796 Speaker 1: Are you drawn to it? 146 00:09:10,836 --> 00:09:13,676 Speaker 6: I like it because I have a personal story connected 147 00:09:13,716 --> 00:09:15,876 Speaker 6: to it. You know, when I came to the museum, 148 00:09:15,956 --> 00:09:20,116 Speaker 6: the painting was in storage as an attributed painting by 149 00:09:20,196 --> 00:09:25,236 Speaker 6: Vangal with basically no value. I was able to bring 150 00:09:25,276 --> 00:09:27,396 Speaker 6: it up to the galleries and put it together with 151 00:09:27,436 --> 00:09:31,036 Speaker 6: the other four bangals that the DIA has a word 152 00:09:31,116 --> 00:09:33,676 Speaker 6: that it looks like a painting by a Sunday painter, 153 00:09:35,116 --> 00:09:39,956 Speaker 6: as considered by a forger, would have no value, no 154 00:09:40,076 --> 00:09:44,116 Speaker 6: monetary value. But the minute we consider it as by Vango, 155 00:09:44,356 --> 00:09:49,636 Speaker 6: it has a value of several million dollars. However, the 156 00:09:49,676 --> 00:09:53,236 Speaker 6: painting has not changed. The painting continues to be what 157 00:09:53,356 --> 00:09:57,516 Speaker 6: it is. What has changed is the perception that we 158 00:09:57,636 --> 00:10:00,356 Speaker 6: have on the painting, and that is a really interesting 159 00:10:00,476 --> 00:10:04,676 Speaker 6: concept to think about. So I like the painting a 160 00:10:04,676 --> 00:10:05,236 Speaker 6: lot for that. 161 00:10:05,676 --> 00:10:06,396 Speaker 5: Yeah. 162 00:10:06,516 --> 00:10:08,956 Speaker 1: But if someone said to you, when you retire as 163 00:10:08,996 --> 00:10:11,116 Speaker 1: to directory, you can take one of the DIA's van 164 00:10:11,196 --> 00:10:13,316 Speaker 1: goes with you, which one would you take? 165 00:10:13,996 --> 00:10:14,876 Speaker 3: Not this one? No? 166 00:10:18,036 --> 00:10:20,596 Speaker 1: So why should we care about Vaz with carnations. 167 00:10:21,116 --> 00:10:22,036 Speaker 7: We shouldn't. 168 00:10:22,276 --> 00:10:25,436 Speaker 1: It's not the painting that matters. The painting is just 169 00:10:25,476 --> 00:10:33,636 Speaker 1: a mcguffin. In case you don't know what I mean 170 00:10:33,676 --> 00:10:37,876 Speaker 1: by mcguffin, let's consult The Dick Cavett Show, nineteen seventy two. 171 00:10:38,676 --> 00:10:42,556 Speaker 1: Cavit's guest is the legendary film director Alfred Hitchcock, the 172 00:10:42,596 --> 00:10:45,316 Speaker 1: great proponent of mcguffin's. 173 00:10:48,516 --> 00:10:49,676 Speaker 5: Can explain what a mcguffin. 174 00:10:49,796 --> 00:10:54,756 Speaker 8: Yes, a mcguffin you see in most films about spies. 175 00:10:55,916 --> 00:10:59,956 Speaker 8: It is a thing that the spies are after. In 176 00:10:59,996 --> 00:11:03,716 Speaker 8: the days of Roger Kipling, it will be the plans 177 00:11:03,796 --> 00:11:08,916 Speaker 8: of the fort on the Kaiber Pass. It would be 178 00:11:08,956 --> 00:11:14,276 Speaker 8: the plans of an airplane engine, and the plans of 179 00:11:14,356 --> 00:11:18,356 Speaker 8: an anthem bomb, anything you like. It's always called the 180 00:11:18,396 --> 00:11:22,476 Speaker 8: thing that the characters on the screen worry about, but 181 00:11:22,556 --> 00:11:23,756 Speaker 8: the audience don't care. 182 00:11:25,356 --> 00:11:28,196 Speaker 1: The mcguffin is an object used to propel the plot, 183 00:11:28,476 --> 00:11:32,156 Speaker 1: to motivate the characters, but which has no intrinsic value 184 00:11:32,396 --> 00:11:36,476 Speaker 1: to anyone else. VARs with carnations is a mcguffin. 185 00:11:36,956 --> 00:11:40,836 Speaker 8: It's described in a scene in an English train going 186 00:11:40,876 --> 00:11:45,116 Speaker 8: to Scotland, and one man says to the other opposite him, 187 00:11:45,156 --> 00:11:48,996 Speaker 8: he said, what's that package above your head there? Now? 188 00:11:49,036 --> 00:11:52,036 Speaker 8: The man said, oh, that that's a mcguffin. He said, 189 00:11:52,156 --> 00:11:56,556 Speaker 8: What is a mcguffin. He said, well, it's an apparatus 190 00:11:56,596 --> 00:12:03,156 Speaker 8: for trapping lions in the Scottish Highlands. Man said, but 191 00:12:03,196 --> 00:12:06,596 Speaker 8: there are no lions in the Scottish Islands. He said, 192 00:12:06,596 --> 00:12:07,996 Speaker 8: then that's no mcguffin. 193 00:12:12,116 --> 00:12:14,116 Speaker 3: I thank you for clearing that up for us. 194 00:12:16,156 --> 00:12:21,036 Speaker 1: I repeat, it's not the painting that matters. That has 195 00:12:21,156 --> 00:12:23,516 Speaker 1: always been the mistake with the way people have thought 196 00:12:23,516 --> 00:12:29,476 Speaker 1: about Vozwi carnations. No more mcguffins. After the break, let's 197 00:12:29,476 --> 00:12:30,716 Speaker 1: start this story again. 198 00:12:41,036 --> 00:12:45,156 Speaker 9: Let's just talk about your family. Your great grandmother is 199 00:12:45,516 --> 00:12:46,476 Speaker 9: Hedwig Ulmen. 200 00:12:47,316 --> 00:12:48,436 Speaker 7: Yes, that's correct. 201 00:12:48,516 --> 00:12:51,596 Speaker 10: Yes, she came from a family who had for a 202 00:12:51,796 --> 00:12:55,676 Speaker 10: very long time lived in Frankfurt. You know, many relatives, 203 00:12:56,476 --> 00:12:58,076 Speaker 10: very embedded history in the city. 204 00:12:58,636 --> 00:13:02,396 Speaker 1: I'm talking with Sophie Allen. She lives in Melbourne. Her 205 00:13:02,396 --> 00:13:06,716 Speaker 1: great grandmother was Hedwig Ulmen, the first known owner of 206 00:13:06,716 --> 00:13:12,956 Speaker 1: Ozwi carnations. Hedwig was born in eighteen seventy two into 207 00:13:12,956 --> 00:13:17,116 Speaker 1: a wealthy family in Germany, married Albert Ohlmann, lived with 208 00:13:17,196 --> 00:13:20,876 Speaker 1: him in a grand residence called the Villa Gerlock in Frankfurt, 209 00:13:21,276 --> 00:13:23,796 Speaker 1: and together built an extraordinary art collection. 210 00:13:25,436 --> 00:13:29,316 Speaker 10: So she collected with a great passion medieval sculpture. 211 00:13:29,916 --> 00:13:31,436 Speaker 7: That was a huge passion of hers. 212 00:13:31,756 --> 00:13:38,236 Speaker 10: She collected porcelain, she collected silver, and I believe she 213 00:13:38,236 --> 00:13:42,956 Speaker 10: had different rooms for each of these passions in her home. 214 00:13:43,876 --> 00:13:48,036 Speaker 1: Hedwig and Albert had two sons and many grandchildren, one 215 00:13:48,076 --> 00:13:50,556 Speaker 1: of whom was named Claude. Sophie's father. 216 00:13:51,036 --> 00:13:52,796 Speaker 9: Now, did he remember Hedwig? 217 00:13:53,116 --> 00:13:58,556 Speaker 10: Oh, he was so attached to Hedwig. He was I 218 00:13:58,636 --> 00:14:02,036 Speaker 10: think the favorite, and she was his favorite. He always 219 00:14:02,036 --> 00:14:04,796 Speaker 10: spoke of her really fondly, and I think he felt 220 00:14:05,116 --> 00:14:06,716 Speaker 10: that was probably the person he loved the most. 221 00:14:07,116 --> 00:14:08,956 Speaker 9: Did he talk about what she was like. 222 00:14:09,676 --> 00:14:10,996 Speaker 7: Yes, a little bit. 223 00:14:11,076 --> 00:14:13,356 Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean from what he could remember as a 224 00:14:13,396 --> 00:14:21,716 Speaker 10: young boy, very warm and loving and quite gentle, incredibly 225 00:14:21,716 --> 00:14:22,876 Speaker 10: interested in the arts. 226 00:14:23,196 --> 00:14:25,996 Speaker 1: But the life of Claude's grandparents took a sudden turn 227 00:14:26,596 --> 00:14:28,756 Speaker 1: because the Almonds were Jewish. 228 00:14:29,396 --> 00:14:32,476 Speaker 10: Frankfort was already starting to change in by nineteen thirty three, 229 00:14:32,836 --> 00:14:36,116 Speaker 10: and I'm not sure exactly what date, but I know 230 00:14:36,196 --> 00:14:38,316 Speaker 10: that going to the opera became an issue. If you 231 00:14:38,356 --> 00:14:42,236 Speaker 10: had a Jewish heritage, you couldn't. There was a stage 232 00:14:42,236 --> 00:14:43,516 Speaker 10: where you couldn't go to the opera, and that was 233 00:14:43,556 --> 00:14:45,556 Speaker 10: something that Hedvig did constantly. 234 00:14:45,596 --> 00:14:49,236 Speaker 7: She lived around the corner from the opera house. You know, 235 00:14:49,276 --> 00:14:51,596 Speaker 7: her lifestyle started to change, and so did my grandparents. 236 00:14:52,196 --> 00:14:52,796 Speaker 7: So they left. 237 00:14:52,876 --> 00:14:57,236 Speaker 10: They left first, and Hedvig didn't come to Milan till right, 238 00:14:57,756 --> 00:15:00,036 Speaker 10: you know, maybe within six months or the last six 239 00:15:00,076 --> 00:15:00,876 Speaker 10: months that they were there. 240 00:15:01,996 --> 00:15:03,596 Speaker 9: She's going to be a lot of what year thirty 241 00:15:03,596 --> 00:15:05,316 Speaker 9: eight or thirty nine, what year do you know? 242 00:15:05,716 --> 00:15:07,116 Speaker 7: I think it was that right at the end of 243 00:15:07,236 --> 00:15:08,196 Speaker 7: nineteen thirty eight. 244 00:15:09,116 --> 00:15:12,236 Speaker 1: The end of nineteen thirty eight was, of course, Crystal Knocked, 245 00:15:12,636 --> 00:15:16,676 Speaker 1: the Night of Broken Glass, when at Hitler's direction, mobs 246 00:15:16,716 --> 00:15:20,876 Speaker 1: destroyed hundreds of synagogues and yeshivas across Germany. It was 247 00:15:20,956 --> 00:15:24,276 Speaker 1: impossible to be a German Jew. After Crystal Knocked and 248 00:15:24,396 --> 00:15:27,676 Speaker 1: imagined that you were safe. Hadwig sold off as much 249 00:15:27,716 --> 00:15:30,476 Speaker 1: of her art collection as she could. She fled to 250 00:15:30,516 --> 00:15:34,276 Speaker 1: Milan to join her sons. Then the intentions of Mussolini 251 00:15:34,316 --> 00:15:37,876 Speaker 1: towards Jews became clear, and the whole family fled again, 252 00:15:38,756 --> 00:15:40,156 Speaker 1: this time to Australia. 253 00:15:41,036 --> 00:15:43,556 Speaker 9: So they got out in. 254 00:15:43,476 --> 00:15:47,076 Speaker 10: The neck of time, yes they did, and they go 255 00:15:47,196 --> 00:15:49,956 Speaker 10: via the Panama Canal. I remember my father, I don't 256 00:15:49,996 --> 00:15:51,876 Speaker 10: know how on earth he could have remembered that because 257 00:15:51,916 --> 00:15:54,636 Speaker 10: he was under two years of age, But I think 258 00:15:54,636 --> 00:15:56,836 Speaker 10: it was about a six week trip and the two 259 00:15:56,876 --> 00:16:00,876 Speaker 10: brothers with their families. They both had two children each, 260 00:16:01,196 --> 00:16:04,436 Speaker 10: and hedvig As as the matriarch. They brought her or 261 00:16:04,836 --> 00:16:06,716 Speaker 10: so there were nine of them. 262 00:16:07,316 --> 00:16:10,996 Speaker 1: They made it to Melbourne change their last names Allman 263 00:16:11,396 --> 00:16:15,356 Speaker 1: became Olan and in May of nineteen forty five, four 264 00:16:15,436 --> 00:16:18,156 Speaker 1: days before the end of the war, Hedwick died. 265 00:16:18,996 --> 00:16:21,996 Speaker 10: My father and my uncle probably spent most of their 266 00:16:22,036 --> 00:16:28,116 Speaker 10: lives just assimilating and embracing the life they had, and 267 00:16:28,156 --> 00:16:30,676 Speaker 10: I think bearing the sadness as much as they could, 268 00:16:30,676 --> 00:16:32,316 Speaker 10: because there's definitely. 269 00:16:33,636 --> 00:16:34,156 Speaker 7: A sadness. 270 00:16:34,156 --> 00:16:37,316 Speaker 10: There's gratitude and there's sadness. They go they kind of 271 00:16:37,316 --> 00:16:41,556 Speaker 10: almost they go along together in our life and it's 272 00:16:41,596 --> 00:16:43,716 Speaker 10: come through to my generation too in a way. 273 00:16:43,796 --> 00:16:46,236 Speaker 7: Yeah. 274 00:16:46,676 --> 00:16:50,436 Speaker 1: Then late in his life, Claude Ollen decided to revisit 275 00:16:50,476 --> 00:16:54,116 Speaker 1: the family's past to find the family's art collection that 276 00:16:54,196 --> 00:16:57,636 Speaker 1: had been lost in the desperate escape from Germany. What 277 00:16:57,676 --> 00:17:00,276 Speaker 1: do you think motivated him, what was his How would 278 00:17:00,276 --> 00:17:02,876 Speaker 1: he have expressed his desire to pursue his. 279 00:17:02,876 --> 00:17:09,036 Speaker 10: Claims without sounding dramatic It's just I know that my father, 280 00:17:09,516 --> 00:17:14,556 Speaker 10: all throughout his life, to some degree, maybe within his 281 00:17:14,636 --> 00:17:18,916 Speaker 10: psyche or he struggled with the fact that the family 282 00:17:19,516 --> 00:17:22,076 Speaker 10: had had to leave Europe. It was like a baseline 283 00:17:22,156 --> 00:17:28,956 Speaker 10: in his life that there'd been this massive disruption, and 284 00:17:31,356 --> 00:17:32,596 Speaker 10: it just carried this sense of loss. 285 00:17:32,636 --> 00:17:34,796 Speaker 7: It started. It would have started with the loss of Headvig. 286 00:17:35,356 --> 00:17:37,676 Speaker 10: That would be the first loss he could understand, because 287 00:17:37,676 --> 00:17:39,876 Speaker 10: it was a loved grandmother, the one who gave him, 288 00:17:39,956 --> 00:17:43,156 Speaker 10: who doated on him. From the stories, I thought he 289 00:17:43,276 --> 00:17:47,716 Speaker 10: was the bee's knees, and he was closer to to 290 00:17:47,756 --> 00:17:49,236 Speaker 10: Headvig than he was to his own mother. 291 00:17:50,356 --> 00:17:54,236 Speaker 1: So Claude Allen sat down and went through his grandmother's papers, 292 00:17:54,556 --> 00:17:57,556 Speaker 1: trying to reconstruct what artworks she and her family had 293 00:17:57,556 --> 00:18:00,076 Speaker 1: owned in the years before the war and where they 294 00:18:00,076 --> 00:18:03,476 Speaker 1: had ended up. Some of the works had vanished, others 295 00:18:03,596 --> 00:18:05,956 Speaker 1: were in plain sight. You can find a few for 296 00:18:06,036 --> 00:18:09,356 Speaker 1: yourself if you spend a few hours poking around the internet. 297 00:18:09,796 --> 00:18:12,396 Speaker 1: There's a Paul Gogen sold by Hedwig's sister in law 298 00:18:12,476 --> 00:18:16,396 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty eight as she too fled Frankfort. That 299 00:18:16,476 --> 00:18:19,396 Speaker 1: painting ended up at the Toledo Museum of art in Ohio. 300 00:18:20,036 --> 00:18:22,516 Speaker 1: The family had sold the Gogen along with a lovely 301 00:18:22,596 --> 00:18:25,596 Speaker 1: van Go called the Diggers. The Diggers ended up in 302 00:18:25,636 --> 00:18:28,676 Speaker 1: the hands of a department store air, who then gave 303 00:18:28,716 --> 00:18:30,676 Speaker 1: it to the Detroit Institute of Art in the late 304 00:18:30,756 --> 00:18:34,676 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties. There's a Virgin and Child by Lucas Kronoch 305 00:18:34,756 --> 00:18:38,316 Speaker 1: the Elder from the sixteenth century, now in the University 306 00:18:38,356 --> 00:18:41,356 Speaker 1: of Arizona Museum of Art. Then there were the four 307 00:18:41,396 --> 00:18:45,116 Speaker 1: beautiful wall panels in Hedwig's dining room by the prominent 308 00:18:45,156 --> 00:18:51,596 Speaker 1: German landscape painter Hans Toma Spring, summer, winter, fall. Claude 309 00:18:51,676 --> 00:18:54,756 Speaker 1: Ullen couldn't find out where any of those had gone. 310 00:18:55,196 --> 00:18:59,396 Speaker 1: And finally there was the small, modest still life acquired 311 00:18:59,436 --> 00:19:02,196 Speaker 1: by Hedwig and her husband back in the heyday of 312 00:19:02,236 --> 00:19:08,236 Speaker 1: their collecting, Vozwi Carnations Vincent Vengo, eighteen eighty six. 313 00:19:13,036 --> 00:19:16,556 Speaker 10: I wasn't alive during Hedwig's lifetime. I wasn't even born. 314 00:19:16,556 --> 00:19:18,556 Speaker 10: I wasn't born for another quarter of a century even more. 315 00:19:18,916 --> 00:19:22,596 Speaker 10: But she was very much a part of our lives, 316 00:19:22,676 --> 00:19:26,876 Speaker 10: which was talked about constantly and very fondly, and her 317 00:19:26,916 --> 00:19:28,836 Speaker 10: life was all around us in some way. 318 00:19:29,516 --> 00:19:34,196 Speaker 1: As Claude Ollen began his investigation into Hedwig's last art collections. 319 00:19:34,836 --> 00:19:37,556 Speaker 1: Other Holocaust survivors and her families started to do the 320 00:19:37,596 --> 00:19:42,956 Speaker 1: same thing. There were conferences, laws passed. Europe in particular 321 00:19:43,276 --> 00:19:46,156 Speaker 1: had a growing movement to reconsider the status of art 322 00:19:46,276 --> 00:19:48,956 Speaker 1: sold lost or confiscated during the. 323 00:19:48,916 --> 00:19:51,836 Speaker 10: War, and it seemed that the world was changing and 324 00:19:51,836 --> 00:19:56,556 Speaker 10: a restitution might be possible. My father was very excited 325 00:19:56,676 --> 00:19:59,916 Speaker 10: and hopeful, deeply hopeful about it, whilst I had a 326 00:20:00,036 --> 00:20:00,996 Speaker 10: very different reaction. 327 00:20:01,796 --> 00:20:03,196 Speaker 7: I was a young adult at the time. 328 00:20:03,676 --> 00:20:07,116 Speaker 10: I was almost sort of like, I don't let's don't 329 00:20:07,116 --> 00:20:08,756 Speaker 10: get your hopes up, don't go there. 330 00:20:09,196 --> 00:20:12,196 Speaker 7: It's just going to bring up I think it's because 331 00:20:12,196 --> 00:20:13,156 Speaker 7: I thought it was going to bring. 332 00:20:13,076 --> 00:20:17,276 Speaker 10: Up all these feelings that I knew were down there, 333 00:20:17,276 --> 00:20:18,436 Speaker 10: but I didn't know what they were. 334 00:20:18,516 --> 00:20:20,236 Speaker 7: And it's very it's. 335 00:20:20,076 --> 00:20:23,716 Speaker 10: Actually for someone whose third generation is still very confronting, 336 00:20:23,756 --> 00:20:28,196 Speaker 10: and that's actually surprises me, and still it continues to 337 00:20:28,276 --> 00:20:32,276 Speaker 10: surprise me. I never met Headvig, so why do I 338 00:20:32,316 --> 00:20:32,876 Speaker 10: feel like this? 339 00:20:32,996 --> 00:20:33,556 Speaker 7: But I do. 340 00:20:33,636 --> 00:20:37,476 Speaker 10: It is very much a part of me, and it's 341 00:20:37,476 --> 00:20:41,636 Speaker 10: almost inexplicable. I'm sort of trying to interrogate it a 342 00:20:41,676 --> 00:20:44,796 Speaker 10: little bit more now because I have to face some 343 00:20:44,876 --> 00:20:48,476 Speaker 10: of these things, some of these situations with the paintings 344 00:20:49,156 --> 00:20:50,356 Speaker 10: and what to do with a legacy. 345 00:20:51,436 --> 00:20:54,916 Speaker 9: I think it's a really interesting and important point because 346 00:20:55,316 --> 00:20:58,196 Speaker 9: you know, it was when your father pursued some of 347 00:20:58,236 --> 00:21:02,956 Speaker 9: these claims. It's not just about the art, it's about healing. 348 00:21:03,476 --> 00:21:07,196 Speaker 10: Oh yeah, absolutely, It's not necessarily about material possesions. The 349 00:21:07,236 --> 00:21:12,076 Speaker 10: material possessions are kind of like the marker or it's 350 00:21:12,276 --> 00:21:15,796 Speaker 10: everything orience itself around, but it's not actually what this 351 00:21:15,916 --> 00:21:16,836 Speaker 10: is really all about. 352 00:21:17,076 --> 00:21:18,116 Speaker 7: The art is a symbol. 353 00:21:18,956 --> 00:21:22,076 Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 354 00:21:22,196 --> 00:21:25,396 Speaker 1: I think it's important to understand what Claude Ollen was 355 00:21:25,516 --> 00:21:28,876 Speaker 1: up against in his attempt to locate his grandmother's lost 356 00:21:28,996 --> 00:21:33,956 Speaker 1: art collection. So allow me a digression about a man 357 00:21:34,036 --> 00:21:40,476 Speaker 1: named Charles Venable. Some years ago, Venable was named director 358 00:21:40,516 --> 00:21:44,316 Speaker 1: of the Speed Art Museum in Louisville, Kentucky. It was 359 00:21:44,356 --> 00:21:47,956 Speaker 1: his first director's job, and he decided to begin by 360 00:21:47,996 --> 00:21:50,676 Speaker 1: taking a close look at the museum's collection. 361 00:21:51,076 --> 00:21:54,436 Speaker 5: And it started with our works on paper collection, where 362 00:21:54,476 --> 00:21:56,596 Speaker 5: we were just going to get an you know, get 363 00:21:56,636 --> 00:21:58,356 Speaker 5: some expertise in and we will to look at every 364 00:21:58,396 --> 00:21:59,356 Speaker 5: single work on paper. 365 00:22:00,116 --> 00:22:02,916 Speaker 1: To help him, Venable brought in a former curator from 366 00:22:02,956 --> 00:22:05,276 Speaker 1: the Cleveland Museum of Art, which is one of the 367 00:22:05,276 --> 00:22:08,316 Speaker 1: country's best collections of works on paper. 368 00:22:09,196 --> 00:22:11,676 Speaker 5: The time we went through everything, she said, you have 369 00:22:11,876 --> 00:22:16,636 Speaker 5: about fifty exceptional pieces out of how many It wasn't 370 00:22:16,676 --> 00:22:20,556 Speaker 5: a huge collection, but we probably had a couple thousand 371 00:22:21,396 --> 00:22:24,636 Speaker 5: oh pieces. And then she said, and here's another group 372 00:22:24,676 --> 00:22:26,516 Speaker 5: that are nice. But in the end it was like, 373 00:22:26,596 --> 00:22:28,156 Speaker 5: you should just get rid of all of these. 374 00:22:28,436 --> 00:22:31,796 Speaker 1: Keep the fifty good ones, the a pluses, the rest 375 00:22:32,196 --> 00:22:35,036 Speaker 1: venables sold at auction. And if I'd asked you before 376 00:22:35,076 --> 00:22:38,956 Speaker 1: that process began in Louisville, what percentage were a plus? 377 00:22:38,956 --> 00:22:39,796 Speaker 1: What would you have said? 378 00:22:40,156 --> 00:22:43,156 Speaker 5: Works on paper not my curatorial area. But nevertheless I 379 00:22:43,156 --> 00:22:47,236 Speaker 5: would have said, you know, you would have to have 380 00:22:47,316 --> 00:22:49,876 Speaker 5: half of them I suppose be exceptional works of art, 381 00:22:49,956 --> 00:22:52,636 Speaker 5: or why would you have taken them? 382 00:22:52,836 --> 00:22:56,876 Speaker 1: Venable next became the director of the Indianapolis Museum of Art, 383 00:22:57,196 --> 00:23:00,956 Speaker 1: or as it is now known, New Fields. When he arrived, 384 00:23:01,196 --> 00:23:04,596 Speaker 1: the museum had fifty five thousand objects. It was adding 385 00:23:04,636 --> 00:23:07,156 Speaker 1: close to one thousand new objects a year, and was 386 00:23:07,196 --> 00:23:10,396 Speaker 1: on the verge of building a multimillion dollar storage facility 387 00:23:10,676 --> 00:23:15,316 Speaker 1: to house its ever expanding collection. And Venable's main thought 388 00:23:15,476 --> 00:23:19,516 Speaker 1: was what if Indianapolis was like Louisville and much of 389 00:23:19,516 --> 00:23:22,636 Speaker 1: the stuff they were storing at such great expense wasn't 390 00:23:22,676 --> 00:23:26,916 Speaker 1: worth keeping. So he and his curators at Newfields began 391 00:23:27,036 --> 00:23:30,396 Speaker 1: coming through every one of the objects in the museum's collection. 392 00:23:31,196 --> 00:23:35,676 Speaker 1: They assigned each artwork a grade. A was for something 393 00:23:35,876 --> 00:23:38,836 Speaker 1: that any museum in the world would want. These were 394 00:23:38,876 --> 00:23:41,756 Speaker 1: things that made sense for Indianapolis to have it in 395 00:23:41,756 --> 00:23:47,316 Speaker 1: its collection. C's were d's didn't belong at all. The 396 00:23:47,356 --> 00:23:51,516 Speaker 1: good stuff and the bad stuff were easy to identify, 397 00:23:51,556 --> 00:23:54,036 Speaker 1: but it took years to figure out the bees and c's. 398 00:23:54,676 --> 00:23:58,516 Speaker 1: The curators did tons of research, debated, and kept going 399 00:23:59,036 --> 00:23:59,996 Speaker 1: piece by piece. 400 00:24:01,556 --> 00:24:05,596 Speaker 5: Our collection is now about forty four thousand works of art, 401 00:24:06,956 --> 00:24:10,196 Speaker 5: down from fifty five fifty five five thousand. 402 00:24:10,356 --> 00:24:11,996 Speaker 1: But Venables still not finished. 403 00:24:12,516 --> 00:24:16,036 Speaker 5: Right now, our collection, based on six years of ranking, 404 00:24:16,676 --> 00:24:22,756 Speaker 5: is about thirty three percent a's, so right there, those 405 00:24:22,796 --> 00:24:26,716 Speaker 5: are going nowhere. So there's you know, thousands of works 406 00:24:26,756 --> 00:24:29,676 Speaker 5: of art, and then clearly we would want a good 407 00:24:29,796 --> 00:24:33,876 Speaker 5: number of bees of works that we couldn't replace or 408 00:24:34,476 --> 00:24:37,036 Speaker 5: they're considered totally worthy to be in the gallery for 409 00:24:37,116 --> 00:24:39,236 Speaker 5: one reason or not but if you take just the 410 00:24:39,356 --> 00:24:41,476 Speaker 5: c's and the rest of our d's, you know there's 411 00:24:41,556 --> 00:24:46,156 Speaker 5: probably I'm guessing will be at twenty five thirty thousand 412 00:24:46,196 --> 00:24:46,756 Speaker 5: works of art. 413 00:24:47,516 --> 00:24:50,716 Speaker 1: They have thousands more to go to be auctioned off 414 00:24:50,876 --> 00:24:51,516 Speaker 1: or given away. 415 00:24:52,316 --> 00:24:56,116 Speaker 5: We have huge, big holdings in contemporary glass, but we 416 00:24:56,236 --> 00:24:59,956 Speaker 5: don't need four hundred pieces in storage, So we gave 417 00:25:00,356 --> 00:25:04,996 Speaker 5: one hundred pieces of contemporary glass to the Glick Center 418 00:25:05,036 --> 00:25:07,836 Speaker 5: for Glass at Ball State University in Munsey, Indiana, so 419 00:25:07,916 --> 00:25:09,596 Speaker 5: students could learn technical from them. 420 00:25:10,476 --> 00:25:13,316 Speaker 1: Now, if you listen to the previous episode, you know 421 00:25:13,436 --> 00:25:18,516 Speaker 1: that no one does this in the museum world. No 422 00:25:18,596 --> 00:25:21,636 Speaker 1: one tries to get smaller. No one gives things away 423 00:25:21,756 --> 00:25:24,316 Speaker 1: like that, certainly not on the scale that Venable is 424 00:25:24,396 --> 00:25:28,676 Speaker 1: doing in Indiana, because most art museums are like smog 425 00:25:28,716 --> 00:25:34,036 Speaker 1: the dragon. They're hoarders, deep in their layers, fiercely guarding 426 00:25:34,076 --> 00:25:39,156 Speaker 1: their treasures. Here's an actual headline from Art News, one 427 00:25:39,156 --> 00:25:42,556 Speaker 1: of the major publications of the Art World. Quote is 428 00:25:42,836 --> 00:25:47,796 Speaker 1: Charles Venable democratizing a great art museum in Indianapolis or 429 00:25:47,876 --> 00:25:48,516 Speaker 1: destroying it? 430 00:25:50,556 --> 00:25:52,556 Speaker 9: Are you a kind of Marie? Are you the Marie condo? 431 00:25:54,116 --> 00:25:55,276 Speaker 9: Is your apartment? 432 00:25:55,436 --> 00:25:58,476 Speaker 1: Like minimalist. Do you get rid of old clothes you 433 00:25:58,516 --> 00:26:00,596 Speaker 1: no longer wear them? I mean, does this carry over 434 00:26:00,676 --> 00:26:01,396 Speaker 1: to your private life? 435 00:26:01,596 --> 00:26:01,756 Speaker 4: Oh? 436 00:26:01,956 --> 00:26:06,156 Speaker 5: I not particularly. I mean my husband is much more 437 00:26:06,196 --> 00:26:08,316 Speaker 5: than eat Nick, who would say I'm going to go 438 00:26:08,396 --> 00:26:09,916 Speaker 5: through my closet and get rid of all these things, 439 00:26:09,956 --> 00:26:12,116 Speaker 5: whereas I'm saying, oh, well, I just love that shirt 440 00:26:12,836 --> 00:26:16,036 Speaker 5: and it might hang in my closet for years years, 441 00:26:16,076 --> 00:26:18,276 Speaker 5: it could be ten years old, and shoes even worse. 442 00:26:19,676 --> 00:26:21,156 Speaker 5: But that's not running an art museum. 443 00:26:22,276 --> 00:26:25,116 Speaker 1: Charles Venable is different, not because he's some kind of 444 00:26:25,156 --> 00:26:28,676 Speaker 1: weird neat Nick. He's different because he sees the problem 445 00:26:28,796 --> 00:26:31,516 Speaker 1: his profession has and he's figured out a way to 446 00:26:31,596 --> 00:26:40,276 Speaker 1: do something about it. I asked Randy Frost about what 447 00:26:40,396 --> 00:26:42,876 Speaker 1: it takes to convince a holder to thin their collection. 448 00:26:43,516 --> 00:26:46,636 Speaker 1: He's the psychologist we met in the last episode who 449 00:26:46,716 --> 00:26:49,916 Speaker 1: studies hoarding. He told me that with hoarders, the first 450 00:26:49,916 --> 00:26:53,116 Speaker 1: step is talking about the object. So you're saying, in 451 00:26:53,156 --> 00:26:59,116 Speaker 1: this case, the act of forcing someone to conceive and 452 00:26:59,636 --> 00:27:02,836 Speaker 1: verbalize their attachment to the object helps them get rid 453 00:27:02,876 --> 00:27:05,396 Speaker 1: of it. Yes, shatters the bond in some. 454 00:27:05,516 --> 00:27:10,036 Speaker 11: Way, or well, I think it puts their attachments into 455 00:27:10,116 --> 00:27:12,836 Speaker 11: the context of the values of their life. Because we 456 00:27:12,916 --> 00:27:14,956 Speaker 11: focus a lot on values. What is it that you 457 00:27:15,116 --> 00:27:17,276 Speaker 11: value in your life? What do you want your life 458 00:27:17,356 --> 00:27:20,836 Speaker 11: to be like? And once you start talking about this 459 00:27:21,076 --> 00:27:24,236 Speaker 11: and have this set of ideas about the value and 460 00:27:24,276 --> 00:27:27,716 Speaker 11: where you want to go in your life, together, it 461 00:27:28,156 --> 00:27:32,276 Speaker 11: changes the valance of the object. 462 00:27:33,036 --> 00:27:36,236 Speaker 1: This is what Charles Venable and his curators were doing 463 00:27:36,316 --> 00:27:39,236 Speaker 1: in Indianapolis as they work their way through the collection, 464 00:27:40,356 --> 00:27:44,636 Speaker 1: changing the valance of the objects. They were asking what 465 00:27:44,956 --> 00:27:47,556 Speaker 1: is it that we value as a museum? Is this 466 00:27:47,796 --> 00:27:53,676 Speaker 1: object consistent with those values? Acquiring art costs money. The 467 00:27:53,796 --> 00:27:56,596 Speaker 1: museum is a nonprofit with a mandate to serve the 468 00:27:56,676 --> 00:28:00,236 Speaker 1: people of Indiana. Venable doesn't see how collecting more and 469 00:28:00,356 --> 00:28:03,236 Speaker 1: more stuff that the public will never see, not to 470 00:28:03,316 --> 00:28:07,716 Speaker 1: mention spending millions of dollars to warehouses somewhere, is consistent 471 00:28:07,836 --> 00:28:09,036 Speaker 1: without responsibility. 472 00:28:09,516 --> 00:28:12,156 Speaker 5: You know, you need more conservators, you need more art handlers, 473 00:28:12,196 --> 00:28:15,236 Speaker 5: you need more registrars, you need bigger computer systems. 474 00:28:15,716 --> 00:28:18,396 Speaker 1: If you ask Charles Vennable to give up a work 475 00:28:18,436 --> 00:28:21,596 Speaker 1: of art for some broader, larger reason, he could do 476 00:28:21,796 --> 00:28:24,836 Speaker 1: it because he's developed a system for giving things up. 477 00:28:25,556 --> 00:28:28,796 Speaker 1: So I asked him theoretically about how he and his 478 00:28:28,956 --> 00:28:32,476 Speaker 1: curators might evaluate Vaz with Carnations if it were in 479 00:28:32,556 --> 00:28:35,556 Speaker 1: their collection. So there's about as famous as artist as 480 00:28:35,596 --> 00:28:38,476 Speaker 1: you could find, but it's very much a minor work 481 00:28:38,916 --> 00:28:39,836 Speaker 1: of that artist. 482 00:28:40,436 --> 00:28:40,796 Speaker 8: Is that not? 483 00:28:41,036 --> 00:28:42,036 Speaker 1: Is that an A or not an A? 484 00:28:42,596 --> 00:28:45,676 Speaker 5: I mean not knowing that particular painting. So I'm just 485 00:28:45,756 --> 00:28:49,236 Speaker 5: thinking as a as a sort of track question famous 486 00:28:49,396 --> 00:28:53,836 Speaker 5: artist minor work. We wouldn't call that an A would 487 00:28:53,876 --> 00:28:55,956 Speaker 5: get We would give it a little bump because it's 488 00:28:55,996 --> 00:28:58,796 Speaker 5: by Van Goh, a very famous artist, But it wouldn't 489 00:28:58,796 --> 00:29:00,556 Speaker 5: make it an A just because it had his name 490 00:29:00,636 --> 00:29:02,916 Speaker 5: on it. It would have it would be a minor 491 00:29:02,996 --> 00:29:06,196 Speaker 5: work by that artist. And then the questions we would 492 00:29:06,236 --> 00:29:11,876 Speaker 5: ask is are we doing a great artist by Van 493 00:29:11,916 --> 00:29:15,836 Speaker 5: Go in many ways change the course of Western art history? 494 00:29:16,836 --> 00:29:21,396 Speaker 5: Are we doing his legacy and his work a good 495 00:29:21,476 --> 00:29:26,756 Speaker 5: deed by showing a pretty minor, mediocre work in a 496 00:29:26,796 --> 00:29:31,636 Speaker 5: great institution, and particularly an institution that has much better 497 00:29:31,676 --> 00:29:34,796 Speaker 5: works by Van Go? You know where you can show 498 00:29:35,076 --> 00:29:38,076 Speaker 5: an A plus at a place like Detroit. Why would 499 00:29:38,116 --> 00:29:40,636 Speaker 5: you bother with a minor thing? If we were offered 500 00:29:40,636 --> 00:29:44,956 Speaker 5: a painting like that, we would if somebody wanted we 501 00:29:44,996 --> 00:29:46,916 Speaker 5: wouldn't buy it for sure, And if somebody wanted to 502 00:29:46,956 --> 00:29:48,796 Speaker 5: give it to us, we would say, well, this is 503 00:29:48,876 --> 00:29:51,236 Speaker 5: not something that's right to go on our walls. If 504 00:29:51,276 --> 00:29:52,876 Speaker 5: you want to give it to us, are you willing 505 00:29:52,916 --> 00:29:55,476 Speaker 5: to let us sell it and then bring the money 506 00:29:55,556 --> 00:29:57,276 Speaker 5: back to the collection and buy something that your name 507 00:29:57,316 --> 00:29:57,716 Speaker 5: can go on. 508 00:30:01,276 --> 00:30:04,476 Speaker 1: Charles Venable is adept at changing the valance of the 509 00:30:04,596 --> 00:30:08,636 Speaker 1: objects in his possession. He can give things up, but 510 00:30:08,716 --> 00:30:12,636 Speaker 1: he's the exception. The rest of the art world is 511 00:30:12,756 --> 00:30:32,916 Speaker 1: still in the grip of their compulsion. So back to 512 00:30:32,996 --> 00:30:36,196 Speaker 1: Claude Ullen, who as a child fled Europe with his family. 513 00:30:37,836 --> 00:30:41,876 Speaker 1: About fifteen years ago, Allen started asking the museums holding 514 00:30:42,036 --> 00:30:45,196 Speaker 1: Hedwig's art to do a version of what Charles Venable 515 00:30:45,276 --> 00:30:49,156 Speaker 1: does at Indianapolis, or what Randy Frost tries to teach 516 00:30:49,236 --> 00:30:53,636 Speaker 1: hoarders to break their attachment to a specific object by 517 00:30:53,716 --> 00:30:57,276 Speaker 1: asking a broader question about its relationship to their own values. 518 00:30:58,196 --> 00:31:01,636 Speaker 1: In essence, Alan told the museums, my grandmother and her 519 00:31:01,676 --> 00:31:05,276 Speaker 1: family sold some of their prized possessions in a moment 520 00:31:05,436 --> 00:31:08,996 Speaker 1: of desperation and panic to help finance their escape from 521 00:31:09,196 --> 00:31:13,436 Speaker 1: certain death. Are you sure you feel right about owning 522 00:31:13,636 --> 00:31:18,196 Speaker 1: an object with that kind of history. Allens started with 523 00:31:18,276 --> 00:31:21,836 Speaker 1: the Gaugain Street in Tahiti and the van go The 524 00:31:21,956 --> 00:31:25,116 Speaker 1: Diggers that were once owned by Hedwig's brother and sister 525 00:31:25,156 --> 00:31:28,836 Speaker 1: in law. Allen and a group of his relatives approached 526 00:31:28,836 --> 00:31:32,036 Speaker 1: the Toledo Museum and the Detroit Institute of Art with 527 00:31:32,156 --> 00:31:35,836 Speaker 1: their requests. The family was forced to give these paintings 528 00:31:35,916 --> 00:31:39,596 Speaker 1: up under duress in nineteen thirty eight. Could they get 529 00:31:39,596 --> 00:31:43,876 Speaker 1: them back? And what happened? The two museums turned around 530 00:31:44,076 --> 00:31:46,836 Speaker 1: and sued the Islans. That was in order to and 531 00:31:46,956 --> 00:31:50,996 Speaker 1: this is one of those wonderful legal euphemisms, quiet the 532 00:31:51,156 --> 00:31:54,836 Speaker 1: title to the painting. And when the case went to court, 533 00:31:55,196 --> 00:31:58,516 Speaker 1: the museums won on the narrow grounds that the statute 534 00:31:58,556 --> 00:32:03,076 Speaker 1: of limitations had expired. According to the Federal Court in Detroit, 535 00:32:03,476 --> 00:32:05,876 Speaker 1: the Allens case would have been valid only if they 536 00:32:05,916 --> 00:32:08,796 Speaker 1: had filed a claim for the Diggers within three years 537 00:32:08,836 --> 00:32:11,916 Speaker 1: of way the painting was first sold. It was sold 538 00:32:11,956 --> 00:32:14,756 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty eight, so they needed to have asked 539 00:32:14,796 --> 00:32:19,516 Speaker 1: for it back by nineteen forty one, when those members 540 00:32:19,596 --> 00:32:22,116 Speaker 1: of the Yellen family who had not managed to flee 541 00:32:22,196 --> 00:32:27,676 Speaker 1: for their lives were sitting in concentration camps. Allen had 542 00:32:27,716 --> 00:32:31,276 Speaker 1: asked the museums to consider the morality of their attachments. 543 00:32:31,716 --> 00:32:35,316 Speaker 1: They responded by pointing to the legality of their attachments. 544 00:32:36,036 --> 00:32:38,876 Speaker 1: They don't want to make this about values. No holder 545 00:32:38,916 --> 00:32:45,276 Speaker 1: would consider the story of another vango, a spectacular painting 546 00:32:45,396 --> 00:32:48,276 Speaker 1: called the Night Cafe. It was once owned by a 547 00:32:48,356 --> 00:32:52,676 Speaker 1: Russian collector. The Bolsheviks seized it when they took power 548 00:32:52,796 --> 00:32:56,836 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighteen. It's worth hundreds of millions today. Later 549 00:32:56,956 --> 00:32:58,796 Speaker 1: it was sold by the Soviets to the heir to 550 00:32:58,876 --> 00:33:03,196 Speaker 1: the Singer's sewing machine fortune. The Soviets collected a huge profit. 551 00:33:03,756 --> 00:33:06,916 Speaker 1: The heir later willed it to the Yale University Art Museum. 552 00:33:07,876 --> 00:33:10,916 Speaker 1: Then the original owners descendant came to Yale and said 553 00:33:11,556 --> 00:33:15,396 Speaker 1: that painting was stolen from my great grandfather. Did yell 554 00:33:15,476 --> 00:33:15,956 Speaker 1: give it back? 555 00:33:16,276 --> 00:33:16,756 Speaker 8: Of course not. 556 00:33:17,476 --> 00:33:22,836 Speaker 1: They soothed the great grandson and won. There's a picasso 557 00:33:23,076 --> 00:33:26,156 Speaker 1: in the Metropolitan Museum in New York called The Actor, 558 00:33:26,556 --> 00:33:29,156 Speaker 1: worth well over one hundred million dollars. It had been 559 00:33:29,196 --> 00:33:33,556 Speaker 1: owned by Paul and Alice Leffmann, a Jewish couple in Cologne, Germany, 560 00:33:33,916 --> 00:33:37,116 Speaker 1: who fled for Italy in nineteen thirty seven. Sound familiar. 561 00:33:38,356 --> 00:33:41,396 Speaker 1: They sold the painting to pay for their escape. Their 562 00:33:41,476 --> 00:33:43,836 Speaker 1: great grand niece soothed the Met to get it back, 563 00:33:44,356 --> 00:33:47,476 Speaker 1: saying that it was given up under duress. The court 564 00:33:48,196 --> 00:33:50,996 Speaker 1: ruled in favor of the Met. The judge in the 565 00:33:51,076 --> 00:33:55,636 Speaker 1: case said that the Leftmans weren't technically under duress because duress, 566 00:33:56,116 --> 00:34:00,036 Speaker 1: for the purposes of the law requires quote fear induced 567 00:34:00,196 --> 00:34:05,076 Speaker 1: by a specific and concrete threat of harm purposefully presented 568 00:34:05,156 --> 00:34:10,676 Speaker 1: by its author to extort the victim's consent. In other words, 569 00:34:11,076 --> 00:34:13,556 Speaker 1: in order for the Leftmans to get their Picasso back, 570 00:34:13,956 --> 00:34:16,396 Speaker 1: an official in the Nazi Party would have had to 571 00:34:16,476 --> 00:34:19,076 Speaker 1: come to them in nineteen thirty seven, put a gun 572 00:34:19,236 --> 00:34:22,836 Speaker 1: directly to their head and say sell me your Picasso. 573 00:34:23,756 --> 00:34:26,276 Speaker 1: And because the Fascists chose to be a touch more 574 00:34:26,396 --> 00:34:30,116 Speaker 1: subtle in their methods of extortion, that painting still hangs 575 00:34:30,156 --> 00:34:36,036 Speaker 1: today on the walls of the Met and Vaz with carnations. 576 00:34:36,956 --> 00:34:40,036 Speaker 1: There's a legal loophole in that case as well. Hedwig 577 00:34:40,076 --> 00:34:42,556 Speaker 1: gave it to an art dealer in nineteen thirty eight, 578 00:34:43,036 --> 00:34:45,996 Speaker 1: but that was to sell on consignment, and the art 579 00:34:46,076 --> 00:34:48,436 Speaker 1: dealer took it to New York and didn't get around 580 00:34:48,476 --> 00:34:51,996 Speaker 1: to selling it until after the war was over. Hedwig 581 00:34:52,316 --> 00:34:54,996 Speaker 1: may have given it up under duress of the Nazi threat, 582 00:34:55,316 --> 00:34:58,236 Speaker 1: but it wasn't sold under the duress of the Nazi threat. 583 00:34:58,956 --> 00:35:02,436 Speaker 1: Claude Ullen had no legal claim to Vaz with Carnations, 584 00:35:03,156 --> 00:35:07,316 Speaker 1: just a moral claim, and moral claims matched up against 585 00:35:07,356 --> 00:35:10,516 Speaker 1: the compulsions of the hoarder don't amount to much. 586 00:35:16,156 --> 00:35:16,596 Speaker 6: In the end. 587 00:35:16,916 --> 00:35:19,556 Speaker 1: It was not a museum that returned any piece of 588 00:35:19,636 --> 00:35:23,356 Speaker 1: Hedwig's original art collection. It was a packaged goods company, 589 00:35:23,676 --> 00:35:27,116 Speaker 1: one that sells flower biscuits and beer, the Utker Group, 590 00:35:27,476 --> 00:35:30,956 Speaker 1: based three hours north of Frankfurt, the Kraft Foods of Germany. 591 00:35:31,636 --> 00:35:36,076 Speaker 1: The company's former CEO, Rudolf Auguste Utker, had an extensive 592 00:35:36,276 --> 00:35:39,596 Speaker 1: art collection. The company did a providence check of his 593 00:35:39,676 --> 00:35:43,476 Speaker 1: paintings and they discovered that in nineteen fifty four, Rudolf 594 00:35:43,556 --> 00:35:46,236 Speaker 1: had bought one of the four Hans Toma wall paintings 595 00:35:46,516 --> 00:35:49,996 Speaker 1: that had once hung in Hedwig's living room, a large 596 00:35:50,076 --> 00:35:53,956 Speaker 1: canvas of children dancing around a blooming tree. One day, 597 00:35:53,956 --> 00:35:57,116 Speaker 1: out of the blue, your father hears that one of 598 00:35:57,236 --> 00:36:00,276 Speaker 1: his beloved grandmother's paintings is coming back. 599 00:36:00,556 --> 00:36:02,476 Speaker 7: Yeah, instead of really hit him to the court. 600 00:36:03,156 --> 00:36:06,036 Speaker 1: The heirs did not know the whereabouts of the painting. 601 00:36:06,796 --> 00:36:09,396 Speaker 1: I'm reading now from the short statement released by the 602 00:36:09,516 --> 00:36:14,876 Speaker 1: Ukka Group after they contacted the islands. The company advised 603 00:36:14,916 --> 00:36:17,476 Speaker 1: them that the painting was in its possession and that 604 00:36:17,596 --> 00:36:20,476 Speaker 1: it wished to return it to them on moral grounds. 605 00:36:21,396 --> 00:36:23,396 Speaker 1: The heirs have gratefully accepted. 606 00:36:24,476 --> 00:36:27,916 Speaker 9: Do you remember, can you describe what happened when he first. 607 00:36:27,916 --> 00:36:28,756 Speaker 7: Dad would have cried. 608 00:36:29,796 --> 00:36:33,596 Speaker 10: Yeah, he was quite emotional and he was quite emotional 609 00:36:33,596 --> 00:36:38,756 Speaker 10: about this aspect, and we had several conversations over it, 610 00:36:38,916 --> 00:36:41,476 Speaker 10: and he would cry nearly every single time. 611 00:36:42,996 --> 00:36:43,196 Speaker 2: Yeah. 612 00:36:43,476 --> 00:36:46,356 Speaker 9: Yeah, Is it a beautiful painting, Yes. 613 00:36:46,636 --> 00:36:48,676 Speaker 7: Yeah it is. It's a beautiful painting. 614 00:36:48,756 --> 00:36:54,116 Speaker 10: But it also starts to complete the circle within our family, 615 00:36:55,636 --> 00:36:59,396 Speaker 10: the stories we would tell because Hedwig had a room 616 00:36:59,436 --> 00:37:02,436 Speaker 10: where there were the hounds Tomer works. It was a 617 00:37:02,476 --> 00:37:05,596 Speaker 10: dining room and they were painted around the room and 618 00:37:07,316 --> 00:37:09,356 Speaker 10: Hans Thomer, I think was one of the art she 619 00:37:09,636 --> 00:37:14,156 Speaker 10: loved the most. So to have a work returned was 620 00:37:14,836 --> 00:37:17,236 Speaker 10: it was like almost a completing of the circle. 621 00:37:17,396 --> 00:37:21,796 Speaker 7: And yeah, it was. It was deeply meaningful, especially to 622 00:37:21,876 --> 00:37:22,516 Speaker 7: my father. 623 00:37:23,316 --> 00:37:27,076 Speaker 1: Claude Allen died shortly after his grandmother's painting was returned. 624 00:37:29,436 --> 00:37:33,516 Speaker 1: As for vas with Carnations, it's still in Detroit. The 625 00:37:33,636 --> 00:37:36,796 Speaker 1: Olans are not pursuing their claims to that painting. They 626 00:37:36,916 --> 00:37:40,916 Speaker 1: know they never win. And where is the painting currently? 627 00:37:41,916 --> 00:37:44,836 Speaker 1: Is it now on display or is it still in storage? 628 00:37:44,836 --> 00:37:47,516 Speaker 9: Where is it now in the in the museum. 629 00:37:47,516 --> 00:37:51,436 Speaker 6: It's on display, It's been on display, and it was 630 00:37:51,516 --> 00:37:58,836 Speaker 6: recently featuring an exhibition in the Barberini Gallery in Postam 631 00:37:59,076 --> 00:38:01,996 Speaker 6: next to Berlina about Bango still lifes. 632 00:38:03,396 --> 00:38:07,236 Speaker 1: The Detroit Institute of Art is in midtown Detroit, across 633 00:38:07,396 --> 00:38:09,876 Speaker 1: Woodward Avenue from the main branch of the Public Library. 634 00:38:10,476 --> 00:38:14,436 Speaker 1: A beautiful building with an extraordinary collection. If you get 635 00:38:14,476 --> 00:38:18,276 Speaker 1: a chance, go and see Vaz with Carnations, and if 636 00:38:18,316 --> 00:38:20,556 Speaker 1: you like it, stop by the gift shop and pick 637 00:38:20,596 --> 00:38:23,276 Speaker 1: up a pair of Vaz with Carnations socks for nineteen 638 00:38:23,356 --> 00:38:26,876 Speaker 1: ninety five, one size fits all, and Voz with Carnations 639 00:38:26,996 --> 00:38:30,116 Speaker 1: Aloes soap for sixteen ninety five in a little round 640 00:38:30,196 --> 00:38:34,356 Speaker 1: ten with Van Goh's Carnations on the cover. But don't 641 00:38:34,396 --> 00:38:37,876 Speaker 1: spend too much time thinking about the painting. The painting 642 00:38:38,276 --> 00:38:41,796 Speaker 1: is a mcguffin. Think about where it came from and 643 00:38:41,916 --> 00:38:44,756 Speaker 1: what it stands for, and then do me a favor. 644 00:38:45,156 --> 00:38:47,876 Speaker 1: When you leave, put a note in the suggestion box. 645 00:38:48,956 --> 00:38:52,996 Speaker 1: I have seen Vaz with carnations. It doesn't belong here. 646 00:39:02,436 --> 00:39:06,196 Speaker 1: Revision's History is produced by Mielo, Belle and Leemingestou with 647 00:39:06,396 --> 00:39:10,476 Speaker 1: Jacob Smith, Aloise Linton and Anna and I. Our editor 648 00:39:10,556 --> 00:39:14,556 Speaker 1: is Julia Barton. Original scoring by Luis Garra, mastering by 649 00:39:14,636 --> 00:39:18,636 Speaker 1: Flawn Williams, fact checking by Beth Johnson, and special thanks 650 00:39:18,676 --> 00:39:23,356 Speaker 1: to the Pushkin Crew Heather Fane, Carl Migliore, Maya Canick, 651 00:39:23,476 --> 00:39:28,796 Speaker 1: Maggie Taylor, Jason Gambrel and of course El Hafe, Jacob Weisberg. 652 00:39:29,476 --> 00:39:30,316 Speaker 1: I'm Malcolm Glappo.