Speaker 1: And you get to use that to help people in
Speaker 1: their twenties who are going through some of the most
Speaker 1: confusing times in their life when the whole world of
Speaker 1: streaming of them that they should be an indult and
Speaker 1: know how to do all of this while they're deferately
Speaker 1: trying to figure out how they balance all of the
Speaker 1: daily tasks of repetition that come with adulthood. You get
Speaker 1: to stand there and help them across that bridge and
Speaker 1: also placing them a seat to make sure that they
Speaker 1: carry on the things that you're teaching them. That that
Speaker 1: was why it spoke to me, because the ripple effect
Speaker 1: that you can have in this job is unlike anything else. Hi,
Speaker 1: I'm Hallie rit Sue and I'm Alison Friedman. And this
Speaker 1: is Personal Jurisdiction, a podcast or get personal with lawyers
Speaker 1: about their journeys before, during, and after law school. Join
Speaker 1: us for season three as our guests share there behind
Speaker 1: the scenes reflections on the highs and lows of how
Speaker 1: they got to where they are today. On today's episode
Speaker 1: of Personal Jurisdiction, we welcome Adric Embro, Laura Rose, and
Speaker 1: A J. B. Though they Luna, they are several of
Speaker 1: the trial team coaches from the podcast class Action with
Speaker 1: Katie Fang. Class Action is an immersive, twelve part documentary
Speaker 1: podcast series about the next generation of lawyers, heard through
Speaker 1: the voices of law students competing in mock trial tournaments
Speaker 1: around the country. We first learned about class Action through
Speaker 1: a conversation with producers Lisa Gray and Kevin Hoffman and
Speaker 1: thought it would be fun and wonderful to hear from
Speaker 1: a few of the trial team coaches featured on class
Speaker 1: Action to learn more about their career journeys, why they've
Speaker 1: dedicated their time to coaching trial teams, and the advice
Speaker 1: they have for aspiring lawyers. Adria Kimbro is the student
Speaker 1: recruiting manager in the Marshall Motley Scholars Program at the
Speaker 1: n double a CP Legal Defense and Educational Fund. Previously,
Speaker 1: Adria was a pre law advisor at Dillard University in
Speaker 1: New Orleans and served as one of the university's mock
Speaker 1: trial team coaches. Adria is a graduate of Talladega College
Speaker 1: and the University of Cincinnati College of Law. Laura Rose
Speaker 1: is an Associate Professor of Law Band the Hide to
Speaker 1: Prime Trial Advocacy Fellow at the University of South Dakota
Speaker 1: nuts In School of Law. Laura is a graduate of
Speaker 1: Stetson University and Stetson University College of Law. A J.
Speaker 1: B Tho They Luna is the Assistant Dean for Advocacy
Speaker 1: Programs and the Hardy Service Professor of Law at St.
Speaker 1: Mary's University School of Law in San Antonio, Texas. He
Speaker 1: teaches trial advocacy and arbitration and directs the Law Schools
Speaker 1: Advocacy Program National Team. A J. Is a graduate of
Speaker 1: Johns Hopkins University and the University of Maryland School of Law.
Speaker 1: Please enjoy this conversation with our friends from Class Action.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Personal Jurisdiction. We are here for our
Speaker 1: last episode of season three and we're so excited that
Speaker 1: we have the opportunity to talk to several of the
Speaker 1: trial team coaches that were featured in the Class Action podcast. Laura,
Speaker 1: Adria and a J. Thank you so much for joining
Speaker 1: us today. We're so happy to see you. It's awesome.
Speaker 1: Thanks for having us, really excited. Yes, thanks for having us.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for asking us to come hang out.
Speaker 1: I think this is the most people we've had on
Speaker 1: a recording at once, so that's great too. And We're
Speaker 1: just going to jump right in and we're gonna ask
Speaker 1: some questions that are similar to what we chat about
Speaker 1: on a normal episode of our podcast. And our listeners
Speaker 1: are at several stages of their careers. Some are thinking
Speaker 1: about law school, some are current law students, and some
Speaker 1: are practicing attorneys. And one of the things that we
Speaker 1: really enjoy hearing about from our guests is why they
Speaker 1: decided to go to law school. So I would love
Speaker 1: to start our conversation with asking each of you why
Speaker 1: you went to law school. And Adrian, would you be
Speaker 1: willing to start us off today? How did I know
Speaker 1: you were going to say? It's like, well, alpha order,
Speaker 1: so maybe it's going to be me first. So I
Speaker 1: felt ready I'd offered sort of too two part answer
Speaker 1: to your question. I was the proverbial kid who you know,
Speaker 1: top a lot and like to argue, and somebody says, oh,
Speaker 1: you want to go to law school, which is a
Speaker 1: terrible reason to go to law school, So let me
Speaker 1: say that, But um, that was part of it. I
Speaker 1: think there were people my family, people in my community
Speaker 1: perhaps who did not have a lot of exposure to law,
Speaker 1: but knew that lawyers um use their voices to advocate
Speaker 1: for themselves or for other people, and they thought based
Speaker 1: upon I guess some sort of natural attributes, that I
Speaker 1: might be a good candidate for that. I think the
Speaker 1: other piece has a lot to do with my own
Speaker 1: personal origin story. UM. So, I am originally from Mobile, Alabama,
Speaker 1: born and raised, and I was raised by civil rights parents, UH,
Speaker 1: civil rights air parents, and UM, I grew up having
Speaker 1: an understanding a sense of history, especially of Black Americans
Speaker 1: in this country and the ways in which the law
Speaker 1: was able to help advance the cause for racial justice
Speaker 1: in this country. Fast forward to the eighties. Believe it
Speaker 1: or not, Mobile Alabama wonderful place, but also has the
Speaker 1: unfortunate distinction of being the last reported location of a
Speaker 1: clan lynching, which happened in the eighties and my lifetime
Speaker 1: about i'd say two miles away from the house where
Speaker 1: I grew up. And Um, there was a man by
Speaker 1: the name of Michael Donald who was lynched by the clan.
Speaker 1: UM fast forward, Um, the individuals who lynched Michael Donald
Speaker 1: were held They were convicted criminally, but there's also a
Speaker 1: lawsuit against the clan. There may be some folks who've
Speaker 1: heard of this story. Was featured on CNN and a documentary.
Speaker 1: But Morris D's in the Southern Poverty Law Center, along
Speaker 1: with some other local lawyers, sue the clan and they won,
Speaker 1: and as a result of that lawsuit, that judgment bankrupted
Speaker 1: the clan, at least the organized clan as we know
Speaker 1: it today. And I just remember thinking, oh, you can
Speaker 1: do that, Like something happens so tragic, and of course
Speaker 1: none of those things bring the life of the loved
Speaker 1: one back, but to realize, like, things can happen, and
Speaker 1: there is a mechanism and a tool to be able
Speaker 1: to address those kinds of issues, And I just remember
Speaker 1: being so completely taken aback by that and thinking what
Speaker 1: a powerful tool to have and something that I wanted
Speaker 1: to be able to learn about more and to be
Speaker 1: able to use as a vehicle to advance issues of
Speaker 1: justice that I saw income a community. So that was probably,
Speaker 1: as time went on, a big part of my reason
Speaker 1: for wanting to go to law school. Laura, what about you?
Speaker 1: So law school was the plan from a very young age.
Speaker 1: The timing wasn't necessarily what I had hoped that it
Speaker 1: would be. I graduated from college in two thousand nine,
Speaker 1: and it was at the very beginning of the housing crisis,
Speaker 1: when everything kind of turned up lay down, and prior
Speaker 1: to starting the fall semester at law school, I had
Speaker 1: been intending to go out to New York and give
Speaker 1: myself five years and just pursue acting and passions in
Speaker 1: that direction. And when I saw what was coming with
Speaker 1: the housing market, my political science made your brain took
Speaker 1: over and went, no, we're going to be practical and
Speaker 1: we're gonna make sure that we can pay bills and
Speaker 1: feed ourselves and do things rather than go live a
Speaker 1: serving artist life for a little bit. But the start
Speaker 1: of wanting to go to law school really started because
Speaker 1: when I started school, my dad started law school. So
Speaker 1: we would get up in the morning and we would
Speaker 1: pack up our stuffs to go to school, and it
Speaker 1: would be daddy and daughter go to school. He would
Speaker 1: drop me off at kindergarten and he'd go off down
Speaker 1: the road to Notre Dame to go to law school
Speaker 1: for the day. And I grew up around it, and
Speaker 1: I grew up around it, knowing the impact that the
Speaker 1: law could have and the impact that advocacy could have,
Speaker 1: and the changes that it could reak in people's lives,
Speaker 1: and the ability that it gave people to speak truths
Speaker 1: to power and and look at people and say, you're
Speaker 1: going to take this seriously and you're gonna treat everybody
Speaker 1: equally under the law, because that's how this work. That's
Speaker 1: that very very well with me and my inner child,
Speaker 1: who very similar to Adria. I was always told, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: you're you're gonna end up a lawyer because I couldn't
Speaker 1: listen to people be wrong and not pointed out for them. Um,
Speaker 1: I I don't see where that's a character flaw to
Speaker 1: this day, but I think that it was a It
Speaker 1: was a calling. And I think a lot of people
Speaker 1: who get involved in this, and the people that you
Speaker 1: hear about on the podcast in particular, everybody in this room,
Speaker 1: you're called to it. There is something about that service
Speaker 1: and that leadership that comes from it, of wanting to
Speaker 1: stand up for your fellow human being. And I think
Speaker 1: it spoke to me from a young age, and I
Speaker 1: pursued it and I ended up in the best job
Speaker 1: in the best place that I possibly could have. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm hearing a thread here which is both of you saying,
Speaker 1: you know, essentially that can see piece of things and
Speaker 1: speaking truth to power are two important pieces which obviously
Speaker 1: there's no question as to how you ended up then
Speaker 1: going into a coaching but AJM expecting you to follow
Speaker 1: this threat exactly. So please tell us why was that
Speaker 1: you into law school? Well, I'm going to concede to
Speaker 1: my two counterparts here. Uh, they could have the point.
Speaker 1: I'm out. Those are great. I am a complete accident.
Speaker 1: Law school student can't have to go back. My parents
Speaker 1: were immigrants to this country. They were fled Fidel Castro
Speaker 1: and Communist Cuba with the clothes on their back. That
Speaker 1: was it. I had a brother and a sister born
Speaker 1: in Cuba, and my mother was eight months pregnant with
Speaker 1: my next sister. We were okay for the first couple
Speaker 1: of years, and then there was this big earthquake in
Speaker 1: California and we lost everything and we went from being
Speaker 1: okay living a good life too. We were dirt port
Speaker 1: and I mean dirt port, Evicted from homes, going to
Speaker 1: kitchen soup kitchens for meals, going without eating, going without
Speaker 1: heat in Boston in the wintertime. It was bad. It
Speaker 1: really was. And I remember a childhood thinking that I
Speaker 1: was going to amount to nothing. To be quite honest
Speaker 1: with you, and my parents. My mother didn't speak English,
Speaker 1: my father spoke some English. They were brown and my
Speaker 1: father was brown skinned. My mother's white skin. Her family
Speaker 1: is more from Spain than Cuba. So I went to
Speaker 1: the Marine Corps when I turned eighteen years old because
Speaker 1: that's the only way that I saw how to get
Speaker 1: out of the cycle that I was in. My older
Speaker 1: sister had gone to community college, didn't succeed. My next
Speaker 1: sister went to Georgia on a music scholars She lasted
Speaker 1: a year, she didn't succeed, And I went and joined
Speaker 1: the Marine Corps. And the Marine Corps was a complete
Speaker 1: lifeserver for me. I will I will always be indebted
Speaker 1: to the Corps for giving me a lot of things
Speaker 1: like discipline and uh and believing in myself that I
Speaker 1: never really had growing up. So I became a police officer.
Speaker 1: After I left the Marine Corps and I started going
Speaker 1: to community college. It took me thirteen years to get
Speaker 1: my A A degree, and then Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore.
Speaker 1: It had a program for aspiring leaders in law. It
Speaker 1: was to finish out your your bachelor's degree. So I
Speaker 1: went to Hopkins and when I was finishing up at Hopkins.
Speaker 1: A friend of mine by the name of lie Maattic.
Speaker 1: She was the first sergeant with the state Police, maybe
Speaker 1: she was a lieutenant by then. She said, what are
Speaker 1: you gonna do after Hopkins? And I said, I don't know,
Speaker 1: Maybe I'll go get a master's And she said, you
Speaker 1: should go to law school. And I said, okay. And
Speaker 1: that's how I ended up in law school. I never
Speaker 1: dreamed about it. I never thought that was in my history.
Speaker 1: There's no way that anyone that knew me when I
Speaker 1: was a kid wouldever eve that I would want to
Speaker 1: be or even aspire to be an attorney in anyway.
Speaker 1: It was just good things happened to me, and there
Speaker 1: were good people along the way who made good recommendations
Speaker 1: to me, and I'm thankful to all of them. Thank
Speaker 1: you all for sharing the really intensely personal things that
Speaker 1: contributed towards your path to the law. That's one of
Speaker 1: the things that we love the most about this podcast
Speaker 1: is seeing so many examples of how there is no
Speaker 1: one path to law school, and that for many people,
Speaker 1: I think more than we realize, that path is not linear,
Speaker 1: It is not straight from college. It is not necessarily
Speaker 1: someone who knows Okay, well, I'm a really argumentative child,
Speaker 1: and so I'm going to go be a litigator. It's
Speaker 1: a discovery process and it's a process that you know
Speaker 1: takes a lot of help in sometimes more than three years.
Speaker 1: So I can see in working with you how trial
Speaker 1: team coaching has fit into your career. But I would
Speaker 1: love to hear from you, including how you know that
Speaker 1: may relate to the types of jobs that you were
Speaker 1: doing at the time or when you started trial team coaching.
Speaker 1: How did you get there, Why did you decide to
Speaker 1: start coaching trial teams and a j I will start
Speaker 1: with you this time. That's a really great question. So
Speaker 1: for me, I think it goes back to even when
Speaker 1: I was a kid. I was never really good at sports.
Speaker 1: I was a smart kid, but never really good at sports.
Speaker 1: But I understood tactics really well. And even as a kid,
Speaker 1: I started coaching. I remember I was I was thirteen
Speaker 1: years old and I got a summer job teaching um
Speaker 1: elementary school kids. Pe for a summer job. Right, poor
Speaker 1: kids can get jobs and get paid for the summer.
Speaker 1: I think I got paid five dollars a day to
Speaker 1: go do this, and I started teaching kids how to
Speaker 1: play softball. I couldn't hit a baseball. I could teach
Speaker 1: anybody how to hit a baseball, though, even as as
Speaker 1: as a twelve thirteen year old, I was able to
Speaker 1: teach somebody else how to do it. I understood the
Speaker 1: mechanics of it. The same was true when I went
Speaker 1: to the Marine Corps. I remember I was a good marine,
Speaker 1: but I wasn't a great marine. I certainly wasn't an
Speaker 1: average marine. I was better than average marine. Believe it
Speaker 1: or not, there are classes of marine. But I remember
Speaker 1: one day and somebody had said to me, you know,
Speaker 1: a college boy, come over here. I had never been
Speaker 1: to college, but there was something in the way that
Speaker 1: I could explain something to others that they would have
Speaker 1: me come over and help people understand stuff. And then
Speaker 1: that that just kept progressing all the way through my
Speaker 1: law enforcement career, and then I got to law school.
Speaker 1: I remember one day I got to law school and
Speaker 1: gentleman by the name of Jerome D's I was still
Speaker 1: a police officer. I was working shift work. Sometimes I'd
Speaker 1: have to pay people to work part of my shift
Speaker 1: a couple of hours, so I would go to the
Speaker 1: edge of the county wait for somebody to call in
Speaker 1: service for me, and then I would rush into law
Speaker 1: school and right at six o'clock, parking was free on
Speaker 1: the street, so I would go right in front of
Speaker 1: the building at six o'clock, run of the door in
Speaker 1: uniform with my gun on, and run the class so
Speaker 1: I could be in class, you know, five minutes late,
Speaker 1: but you know, to me, that was on time. And
Speaker 1: I remember Jerome d stopped me at the door and
Speaker 1: he said why are you here? And I said, I
Speaker 1: I need to go to class. He goes, no, no,
Speaker 1: why why are you here? And we played this cat
Speaker 1: and mouse game of why I was here, and he
Speaker 1: was offended that I was wearing a gun inside of
Speaker 1: the law school building. He was offended by that. But
Speaker 1: I'm not going to leave a gun in Baltimore City
Speaker 1: in a police car. I'm just not going to do that, right,
Speaker 1: So he and I got into a bit of an argument,
Speaker 1: and then I got this notice a couple of days
Speaker 1: later that I was to be in his office the
Speaker 1: next day at four o'clock or something like that. And
Speaker 1: I normally don't get to school until six, but it
Speaker 1: was my day off. Well. Jerry Ds was the director
Speaker 1: of the trial program at Maryland and he saw something
Speaker 1: in me, and so I came to his office. We
Speaker 1: had a discussion. We talked about the gun thing. He
Speaker 1: got over it very quickly once he understood what my
Speaker 1: situation was, and then he asked me if I would
Speaker 1: come in on Saturday. There was a Supreme Court clerk
Speaker 1: that was coming in to judge a team for a competition,
Speaker 1: and he wanted to have a real police officer play
Speaker 1: the character in one of these mock trial competitions. So
Speaker 1: I said sure, and it was an all day affair
Speaker 1: and I kept playing the cop different ways, good cop,
Speaker 1: bad cop, mean cop, soft cop. I mean. He would
Speaker 1: just say do it this way, do it this way,
Speaker 1: do it this way. And it was the same case,
Speaker 1: but a different kind of police officer to help train
Speaker 1: those students, and I just thought, wow, that's really cool. Um,
Speaker 1: So Jerry and I became friends. Again. I'm a little
Speaker 1: older than the average law student. I think I was
Speaker 1: in my thirties, and Jerry and I became friends, and
Speaker 1: then I made the team. And then when I made
Speaker 1: the team, he had me as the first student coach
Speaker 1: of the team. So I started coaching right away out
Speaker 1: of the box. I want my first competition out of
Speaker 1: fantastic team, we want our first competition, the Daniels competition,
Speaker 1: and then after that, I basically became a student coach,
Speaker 1: except I think compete a couple more times. But after
Speaker 1: I graduated, Jerry d said, hey, you need to come
Speaker 1: on and just help me keep coaching. So it was Jerry.
Speaker 1: Jerry saw something in me. He was a great mentor
Speaker 1: of mine and he's the one that put the bug
Speaker 1: in me to coach, and that's how it all started
Speaker 1: for me. I can tell you that it's continued because
Speaker 1: of people like Laura Rose's dad, Charlie Rose, And I'm
Speaker 1: in this job now because of Charlie Rose. Well some
Speaker 1: of it has to do with me, but it's Charlie
Speaker 1: Rose why I give credit for me being here, because
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have gotten this job without him. He was
Speaker 1: looking out for me and he helped me secure this job.
Speaker 1: So it's because of others that I ended up doing
Speaker 1: this kind of work. Yeah, that's one of the other
Speaker 1: big things that we talked about often on the podcast
Speaker 1: is just the idea of mentorship and how important that
Speaker 1: can be, and also sort of networking or connections to
Speaker 1: people and maintaining sort of, you know, a connections to
Speaker 1: other other individuals who might be able to help you
Speaker 1: or put you on a path that maybe you didn't
Speaker 1: even know about or know that you you wanted to pursue.
Speaker 1: So I love to hear that. And that's a perfect
Speaker 1: segue to Laura us And you just referenced her dad
Speaker 1: and and his his helpfulness in terms of your career.
Speaker 1: So Laura, will you give us a sense of, you know,
Speaker 1: how you made your way to being a trial team coach.
Speaker 1: When I started law school, I was vehemently against doing
Speaker 1: anything with criminal law, and vehemently against doing anything to
Speaker 1: do with litigation, and vehemently against anything to do with
Speaker 1: military law because it would put me square in my
Speaker 1: father's shadow. I had this idea, this wonderful dream, that
Speaker 1: I was going to become a contract lawyer and I
Speaker 1: was going to help negotiate the right to the oil
Speaker 1: wells that exists in the North Sea off the northern
Speaker 1: coast of Scotland. And then I took contracts and I
Speaker 1: wanted to just absolutely scoop my own eyeballs out with
Speaker 1: the rusty soon. And when we were talking about what
Speaker 1: offer acceptance in consideration and all of this stuff was
Speaker 1: and I realized that was not my calling. And unfortunately,
Speaker 1: as I have to say often in life, my dad
Speaker 1: ended up being right right and it was litigation. And
Speaker 1: I will tell you right here, right now, that trial
Speaker 1: saved my life and made me a better person. And
Speaker 1: it made be a better person because I didn't get
Speaker 1: it when I wanted it. The first time I tried
Speaker 1: out for steps in his trial team as a second
Speaker 1: year law student and there was a very strict eight
Speaker 1: minute time limit that was said. I went five words
Speaker 1: over the eight minute time limit. Dad is the director
Speaker 1: of the program at the time, and they kept me
Speaker 1: instantaneously like there's no there's no discussion, there's no anything,
Speaker 1: there's no stacy that or anything. You're just done right.
Speaker 1: And I'm mortified because I have let down the family
Speaker 1: name and all this other stuff. But my coach, Professor Topics,
Speaker 1: lives at me and said, you can do shadow teams
Speaker 1: and you can figure this out and you can learn.
Speaker 1: And I made a decision that I was going to
Speaker 1: fwallow my pride and recognize that I had more things
Speaker 1: to learn than I realized and that I needed to
Speaker 1: grow from that. And it made me a better human
Speaker 1: being because I got to grow from that. And I
Speaker 1: did six competitions that year as a shadow team member,
Speaker 1: where I was just I was taking every opportunity that
Speaker 1: I could get to get into the courtroom and do
Speaker 1: this because it made law school come back to life
Speaker 1: for me. It saved the idea of getting my j D.
Speaker 1: It ate it worthwhile because it showed me an active
Speaker 1: way in which I could make it difference right, and
Speaker 1: that that got strengthened and heightened when I took We
Speaker 1: had a class club constitutional on the Civil Rights movement
Speaker 1: that Professor Bickle Toot and we would go and we
Speaker 1: would study the decisions of the war in court for
Speaker 1: six weeks. And after we studied the decisions of the
Speaker 1: War in Court, we went on the Freedom read and
Speaker 1: we got to go with an actual freedom writer. We
Speaker 1: met up in Nashville and we went to different locations,
Speaker 1: and I can remember standing in Nashville and him talking
Speaker 1: about how he and his friends had to go outside
Speaker 1: into the alleyways to use the restroom because they weren't
Speaker 1: allowed to use the restroom in the buildings there were
Speaker 1: no colored restrooms, and thinking about how I had struggled
Speaker 1: when we were reading the court's decisions because it was
Speaker 1: so common sense to me, right, like, how how could
Speaker 1: we be arguing about this needing to be an equivalency? Right?
Speaker 1: Why was this every debate? To stand in that place
Speaker 1: with that man and recognize what he had gone through
Speaker 1: and see what people who had gone through law school
Speaker 1: were able to effectuate change wise in life, it changed
Speaker 1: everything for me. So after I graduated, I had a
Speaker 1: absess in shadow team for a year with my friend
Speaker 1: Eric the Storm. She and I ran that thing together
Speaker 1: because the wouldn't let us coach right away. And then
Speaker 1: after we had a year out, we started coaching, and
Speaker 1: I was working as a white collar crime prosecutor, had
Speaker 1: been my dream job. I was working through the Florida
Speaker 1: Office of the Attorney General of the white collar crime
Speaker 1: prosecutor doing Ponzi scheme security fraud cases that we weren't
Speaker 1: quite big enough for the FEDS don't want to deal with,
Speaker 1: but we're too complicated or touched on multi jurisdiction. So
Speaker 1: I was I was doing my dream work, and I
Speaker 1: was coaching on the weekends, and I realized I was
Speaker 1: more excited to get up on the weekend and go
Speaker 1: work with law students and make them understand what hearsay
Speaker 1: was and how they could take this job on. Then
Speaker 1: I was to go in and do my work in
Speaker 1: the office, and I got so pivot point where career
Speaker 1: wise something was going to change. I had an offer
Speaker 1: to go join private practice. Uh my former trial team coach,
Speaker 1: I call him the big brother that I never wanted,
Speaker 1: Lee Perlman in his private practice. He he had a
Speaker 1: slot open for me. Or I could go to u
Speaker 1: m k C and work for Ray Foreman as a
Speaker 1: grad student and start a path towards making this the
Speaker 1: academic pursuit that I wanted it to be. And so
Speaker 1: I took the risk, and seven months after I started
Speaker 1: the job in U m k C, I was at
Speaker 1: USC with a tenure track law professor position, running a
Speaker 1: trial team and building something up here on the legacy
Speaker 1: of the people's game before me. And I got to
Speaker 1: do that because of all the wonderful people that I'm
Speaker 1: connected to. A J talked about paying it forward. A
Speaker 1: J is on my list of people who are why
Speaker 1: I am where I am today, right. Liz Lippy from
Speaker 1: Temple is on my list. Joel. That's scene from Temple
Speaker 1: there for they go acrostination, and I have been so
Speaker 1: blessed to work with so many of these legal minds
Speaker 1: that it is my great privilege to now start another
Speaker 1: at another institution, in another place, making sure that these
Speaker 1: lessons get carried forwards to areas of the country that
Speaker 1: needs them desperately. Not because there's anything wrong, but because
Speaker 1: everybody should have the same kind of access that I
Speaker 1: got to have. And so that's that's why I do
Speaker 1: what I do, and that's why I pushed Trout in
Speaker 1: the way that I do, because it's a single grade
Speaker 1: as simulated experiential learning experience that any law student can
Speaker 1: participate in. Parna Laura, you mentioned that for you this
Speaker 1: job at being a trial team coach and a professor
Speaker 1: is a calling, and I'm just curious. I mean, I
Speaker 1: can hear the passion in your voice, so you know,
Speaker 1: it's no secret that that you love doing what you do.
Speaker 1: But I'm curious how you sort of knew that it
Speaker 1: was a calling. Was it just you know, this feeling
Speaker 1: that on the weekends you actually wanted to get up
Speaker 1: and and do that, and that's sort of like what
Speaker 1: pushed you in that direction, or you know, is there
Speaker 1: something else where you kind of knew, like, Okay, this
Speaker 1: is my place. It's because it allows me to combine
Speaker 1: equally the whimsical and practical parts of my soul. Is
Speaker 1: what I like to tell people. My mom is an
Speaker 1: interior designer by trade. My dad is you know, a
Speaker 1: former trial or former military man now lobbying. He's very rational,
Speaker 1: very black and white, very things are in order. And
Speaker 1: then you've got mom who calls me up and said,
Speaker 1: what creative thing are you doing to make sure that
Speaker 1: you don't lose your mind? Trial team is that for
Speaker 1: me because it's the place where I get to be
Speaker 1: fully myself. I get to be all of the strategic
Speaker 1: moments and looking at it from a rational perspective indication
Speaker 1: analysis mode, but also have my theatricality and my big
Speaker 1: moment of of embracing those pieces of my personality. And
Speaker 1: you get to use that to help people in their
Speaker 1: twenties who are going through some of the most confusing
Speaker 1: times in their life when the whole world was screaming
Speaker 1: at them that they should be an adult and know
Speaker 1: how to do all of this well. They're definitely trying
Speaker 1: to figure out how they balance all of the daily
Speaker 1: tasks of repetition that come with adulthood. You get to
Speaker 1: stand there and help them across that bridge and also
Speaker 1: placing them a seed to make sure that they carry
Speaker 1: on the things that you're teaching them. That that was
Speaker 1: why it spoke to me, because the ripple effect that
Speaker 1: you can have in this job is unlike anything else.
Speaker 1: I love that, all right, So, Adria Europe, how did
Speaker 1: you make your way to becoming a trial to youth coach? Well?
Speaker 1: I just love the sort of cosmic way that this
Speaker 1: is flowing because I'm super excited to follow Laura. So
Speaker 1: much of what she said resonated with me. So first
Speaker 1: I'll start by saying, this is all very crazy sort
Speaker 1: of you know, ended up in this this role because
Speaker 1: I am the daughter of a teacher, UM, and I've
Speaker 1: come from a family of educators, and I swore that
Speaker 1: I would not do anything remotely close to teaching, like
Speaker 1: never ever, ever, ever, ever ever, UM. So it's always
Speaker 1: funny to me to sort of see the ways in
Speaker 1: which life unfolds. UM. But you know what really resonated
Speaker 1: with me about what Laura shared was sort of this
Speaker 1: leak from sort of the thing that you thought you
Speaker 1: were going to do into this new thing that feels
Speaker 1: like a calling, and I think that certainly was my experience.
Speaker 1: So before getting into coaching, I did quite a bit
Speaker 1: of pre law advising and working with students who wanted
Speaker 1: to go to law school. And I think back now,
Speaker 1: I can connect the dots to the ways in which
Speaker 1: I was doing that as a law student. So I
Speaker 1: find people or people would find me, particularly students from
Speaker 1: underrepresented backgrounds, because it was just very painfully clear to
Speaker 1: me the lack of diversity in the profession, first as
Speaker 1: a law student and then entering the profession. In all
Speaker 1: of the spaces and places that I worked, for the
Speaker 1: most part, I was either the only attorney of color,
Speaker 1: or if there was one, maybe one more. And so
Speaker 1: I didn't have any lawyers in my family. I really
Speaker 1: think it's the grace of God. I didn't have any
Speaker 1: exposure to the law at all. So that was always
Speaker 1: something that was very much a personal passion for me.
Speaker 1: Anybody who needed help, I would do that. Fast forward
Speaker 1: to about two thousand and twelve, living in New Orleans,
Speaker 1: practicing law, practicing with the firm, and started, you know,
Speaker 1: sort of it as an extension of that, just helping
Speaker 1: at at Dillard University in New Orleans with students who
Speaker 1: had that interest and kind of like Laura, over time,
Speaker 1: you know, so I would go on campus periodically to volunteer,
Speaker 1: and that was the thing that got me excited. I
Speaker 1: really enjoyed the other lawyers that I was practicing with
Speaker 1: no complaints, you know, from that perspective, but there was
Speaker 1: something that was pulling in this other direction, this this
Speaker 1: joy and just there's the impact of being able to
Speaker 1: connect with young people college students and in my situation,
Speaker 1: very young eighteen nineteen twenty year olds who were just
Speaker 1: beginning life and figuring things out. And so I took
Speaker 1: the leap similar to Laura, I left um, you know,
Speaker 1: the full time practice of law and started working with
Speaker 1: undergraduate students. People thought I was insane. I had a
Speaker 1: number of people in colleagues, in fact, after I started
Speaker 1: a couple of years, guys like, so are you done
Speaker 1: with that? Like that thing you're doing like and sort
Speaker 1: of you know, like with those kids, like when are
Speaker 1: you gonna come back and get a real job. This
Speaker 1: is not but I digress. But so get to Dillard.
Speaker 1: Before my arrival, there had already been a creation of
Speaker 1: a mock trial room. It was named after and dedicated
Speaker 1: for Justice Revious Ortique, who was a Dillard, a lum
Speaker 1: and the first African American on Louisiana Supreme Court. And
Speaker 1: the room was created and it's set no activity lights off,
Speaker 1: I mean, beautiful space. So I get there. That's the
Speaker 1: first thing on my jim. I'm like, we gotta get
Speaker 1: something going in this mock trial room, because what a
Speaker 1: what a gift to have a room like this on
Speaker 1: an undergraduate campus for students to learn and to develop.
Speaker 1: And so we we got it started. I had the
Speaker 1: good fortune, really blessing to have a conversation with Judge
Speaker 1: kern Rees, who was at that time the chief judge
Speaker 1: of the Civil District Court here in the city, and
Speaker 1: he's like, hey, Adrian, hear you over there at Dillard.
Speaker 1: You know, if you ever think about trying to do
Speaker 1: a trial team, just let me know. I'm happy to help.
Speaker 1: And it was like the stars aligned and Judge Reyes
Speaker 1: and I got the ball rolling and the rest is history,
Speaker 1: so to speak. It has been a tremendous joy, not
Speaker 1: one that I was necessarily looking for, but the path
Speaker 1: I think once a friend of mine says leap and
Speaker 1: the net will appear. Um, it seems sort of like
Speaker 1: that's such a like non lawyer thing to say, we
Speaker 1: go to school to sort of manage risk. Why would
Speaker 1: you leap in there's no net, Like that's foolish, That's
Speaker 1: but I think I feel like, essentially that's what I did.
Speaker 1: I leaked, and then all of these other things start
Speaker 1: to move and happen. And you know, before I even
Speaker 1: thought about leaping, there was a mock trial room already
Speaker 1: there waiting, just waiting for a team. I love that,
Speaker 1: so as you guys, I think I'll know. I was
Speaker 1: on the trial team in law school, and I definitely
Speaker 1: leapt without a nut beneath me in in taking the
Speaker 1: risk to to try out for the trial team. You know,
Speaker 1: it wasn't the most like outgoing or the most argumentative
Speaker 1: or any of that, And it was one of the
Speaker 1: best experiences I had, or not one of It was
Speaker 1: the best experience that I had in law school. And
Speaker 1: I owe so much to my trial team coach. But
Speaker 1: I'm curious from your perspective, you know, I think for me,
Speaker 1: it gave me a ton of confidence and the kind
Speaker 1: of you know, pushed me out of the nest in
Speaker 1: a way that I needed to be pushed. But from
Speaker 1: your perspective, what is your favorite part about teaching or
Speaker 1: coaching law students? And see you all smiling, so I hope,
Speaker 1: I hope this is a welcome question. So Laura, can
Speaker 1: we pop back to you over this one the moment
Speaker 1: that they stopped thinking of themselves as a student and
Speaker 1: start thinking of themselves as what I call a pseudo
Speaker 1: colleague because they never quite get brave enough at this point,
Speaker 1: I'm old enough now that they feel distant enough that
Speaker 1: they're like, I'm not quite there, but I'm right here, coach,
Speaker 1: and I'm speaking up behind you. And when that when
Speaker 1: that moment dropped, where the student teacher relationship changes from
Speaker 1: just being where I have been teaching you this whole time,
Speaker 1: now you feel like you can play the game. And
Speaker 1: the best way that I have to explain that is
Speaker 1: a story. So y'all have to forgive me. I'll try
Speaker 1: to keep it short. I'm in Professor Topics Trial Advocacy
Speaker 1: class and this is the semester that I haven't made
Speaker 1: a team, and I am intimate on on campus for
Speaker 1: always having my sunglasses on. And this particular day, I
Speaker 1: had a pair of bright pink Parkley Cati sunglasses on
Speaker 1: my head, and it's my turn to get up and
Speaker 1: go give a cross examination. Now, before Lee Topic became
Speaker 1: the amazing attorney that he was, he was a Southern
Speaker 1: Baptist school football coach who took no nonsense for anybody.
Speaker 1: And I knew that I could not go in front
Speaker 1: of the bar with my sparkly pink sunglasses on my
Speaker 1: head or I was not here. So I reached over
Speaker 1: and I set them behind the bar without looking at them,
Speaker 1: go through do to cross examination, and turned to get
Speaker 1: my critique, and the Topic is wearing my fern glasses
Speaker 1: and he proceeds to critique me and do the rest
Speaker 1: of the class while wearing bright pink, sparkly rhyin stone
Speaker 1: covered cat I sunglasses. And I thought, okay, if that's
Speaker 1: how we're gonna play, that's how we're gonna play. And
Speaker 1: I went to party City that night and I went
Speaker 1: to the kid's birthday party section and the kids sunglasses
Speaker 1: that they have that are hard eye shaped, right. I
Speaker 1: bought enough of those for everybody in my class, and
Speaker 1: I got there early the next day and I handed
Speaker 1: him out to everybody, and I said, look when he
Speaker 1: gets in here, he turned When he turns around after
Speaker 1: he's given critique, somebody, we're all gonna put him on
Speaker 1: at once. So he turned around. He's gonna see all
Speaker 1: of this. And I don't know how I got my
Speaker 1: classmates to agree to my nonsense, but they did. And
Speaker 1: when PC turned around to give critique, he was greeted
Speaker 1: by a see of twelve last students, all with hard
Speaker 1: eye sunglasses on. He lost it and for the rest
Speaker 1: his class, I mean, he literally dismissed class afterwards because
Speaker 1: he was he was so happy about the game that
Speaker 1: had gone forward. That happens with law students on trial
Speaker 1: team because they learned to trust themselves. This process teaches
Speaker 1: them that they can do the analysis, they can make
Speaker 1: the argument. They can understand how to leave the rules
Speaker 1: of evidence with the particular fact, with the particular portion
Speaker 1: of procedure, and where we are in the trial to
Speaker 1: make a persuasive point. They understand and begin to see
Speaker 1: themselves and develop their professional identity through this in a
Speaker 1: way that law school doesn't leave a lot of room for.
Speaker 1: In other places, it's real hard to feel confident that
Speaker 1: you understand a case while your professor is cold calling
Speaker 1: you and drilling you on a detail of a case
Speaker 1: that was want to succeed that you had to read
Speaker 1: while you were doing all the other various things that
Speaker 1: law students do, right, But the discrete exercise of here
Speaker 1: is a fact pattern with for witnesses, with a story
Speaker 1: that must be told and a charge that must be
Speaker 1: proven or disproven, makes them shed the rest of the
Speaker 1: worry for a minute and they get to grow and
Speaker 1: become those versions of themselves. And when that starts to happen,
Speaker 1: I get real excited because it means that we have
Speaker 1: hit a satisfactory level of base knowledge for you to
Speaker 1: feel confident. Now we can start growing you into real
Speaker 1: excellence because you're willing to play the game and you've
Speaker 1: seen that you're a part of it too. That's my
Speaker 1: favorite part. A j. You are in the unique position
Speaker 1: of having coached pre law students, so college students. What
Speaker 1: was your favorite part of doing that and working with
Speaker 1: that particular group of students. Yeah, so, you know, similar
Speaker 1: to Laura, I think that whole transition of starting our
Speaker 1: fearful and moving past that fear, I think it's always
Speaker 1: really powerful to see to move past that place of
Speaker 1: insecurity because they all start off very scared, they all
Speaker 1: start off shaking like a leaf, and then they're able
Speaker 1: to move through. That is always a tremendous sense of
Speaker 1: joy because it happens for every single individual student. I
Speaker 1: think that's especially true in working with undergraduate students, and
Speaker 1: so my hope is that the experience that they have
Speaker 1: as undergraduate students helps them to be able to be
Speaker 1: ready for a j and Laura when they get to
Speaker 1: law school. I think that that's the that's the joy
Speaker 1: in it, and I think that's especially true for students.
Speaker 1: So I have not said this specifically, but Dillard University
Speaker 1: is a historically black university. All of the teams that
Speaker 1: I've coached at Dillard have been all black teams, and
Speaker 1: I think there is something. I guess two things I'll
Speaker 1: mention with that. One is the students who are part
Speaker 1: of our team often have a lot of passion around
Speaker 1: issues of justice, things that they see in the community,
Speaker 1: very similar to the experiences that I shared, But through
Speaker 1: mock trial, they now have the language to be able
Speaker 1: to articulate their feelings in a way at empowers them
Speaker 1: and and prepares them for law school. But what I
Speaker 1: think it also does I think sometimes when you're you're
Speaker 1: at a smaller school and perhaps you think those teams
Speaker 1: over there have more resources, or they must be smarter,
Speaker 1: or they must be better, or they must have some
Speaker 1: sort of thing you're experiencing, you know, sort of this
Speaker 1: concentrated imposter syndrome, not just as an individual, but a
Speaker 1: collective team of people to then be able to go
Speaker 1: and compete and win, and it just removes the scales off,
Speaker 1: like it just instantly, like when they stand and they're
Speaker 1: able to argue and they win that round and they
Speaker 1: figure out, oh, they're from where, and to have the
Speaker 1: confidence of knowing. So you take that that piece and
Speaker 1: then you carry that into law school. I was texting
Speaker 1: with some of our students from the team who are
Speaker 1: now one else who are all in exams, just like
Speaker 1: Lauren aj students. So I was texting them, I'm like,
Speaker 1: remember what happened last year, Remember what happened with the
Speaker 1: championship team, and all of the amazing things that you did.
Speaker 1: You did the impossible. So you've already done the impossible.
Speaker 1: So there's nothing that's going to happen over the course
Speaker 1: of this exam period that you have not already confronted,
Speaker 1: and so that to me is that's like, that's that's
Speaker 1: the money, that's that's the goal. That's the very, very
Speaker 1: best thing about it, because it puts them on a
Speaker 1: different playing field, so to speak, once they get to
Speaker 1: law school, I think, and of course as they enter
Speaker 1: the profession, because they'll learn the substance of the material.
Speaker 1: But the confidence that comes from this is just this
Speaker 1: priceless j what about you, Yeah, you know. For me
Speaker 1: it's it's I'm a little older now than doing us
Speaker 1: for a little while. I think the thing that keeps
Speaker 1: motivating me is that that aha moment when you realize
Speaker 1: that you have changed the student, when you change your
Speaker 1: life from being a student and becoming a lawyer. And
Speaker 1: you can see it, you can hear it, you can
Speaker 1: feel it, and just like Allison said, it was the
Speaker 1: best experience of her law school career, there's no one
Speaker 1: that goes through this process and at the end of
Speaker 1: the day says that's the dumbest thing I ever did.
Speaker 1: There is a single soul that's going to say that.
Speaker 1: Every single person that goes through these programs, whether it's
Speaker 1: Adria's or Laura's or mine or anybody else's it's like
Speaker 1: it everyone's gonna say the same exact thing. It's the
Speaker 1: best experience I've ever went through. And the reason why
Speaker 1: is that we started to teach you how to act
Speaker 1: like a lawyer, not just think like a lawyer. This
Speaker 1: past week, Laura and I were in Atlanta for the
Speaker 1: Daniels competition. I had won that competition twenty years ago
Speaker 1: as a law student, so I was I really wanted
Speaker 1: to win this year. So we got there a couple
Speaker 1: of days early, and we had all two l team
Speaker 1: never competed before, and they had the basics all right,
Speaker 1: They got the basics right there. We all teach I
Speaker 1: don't care where you go. Everyone teaches you how to
Speaker 1: do an opening essentially the same way everyone teaches you
Speaker 1: how to direct, how to cross. It isn't magic, it's
Speaker 1: it's it's to teach them how to do it, and
Speaker 1: then you try to get the other parts out. And
Speaker 1: we had this one student who was just having really
Speaker 1: a difficult time delivering an opening statement. The words were right,
Speaker 1: but the way it was coming out it had no emotion.
Speaker 1: It was a mock trial, right. So I spent three
Speaker 1: hours with her working on her opening statement to getting
Speaker 1: her to believe that she actually represented the family of
Speaker 1: a dead kid and what it meant to them, And
Speaker 1: I ended up playing a song. Uh just came to me.
Speaker 1: These things just come to us, right. I'm sitting there
Speaker 1: and I'm trying to get her to understand about storytelling
Speaker 1: in an opening and trying to get her to understand
Speaker 1: that you just can't spew the information. You have to
Speaker 1: deliver the information. You have to make people understand and
Speaker 1: be in the shoes of the person that was affected.
Speaker 1: So I played Joe Jackson's Slow Song. I don't know
Speaker 1: if you have that song. I don't know if you
Speaker 1: have licensing agreements. You might want to go out on
Speaker 1: this on this podcast on Joe jackson Slow Song. It's
Speaker 1: about it's all the the seven minute song, right. I
Speaker 1: don't know if you have either of you heard it,
Speaker 1: If any any of you heard the song Joe Jackson's,
Speaker 1: it's a phenomenal song right where he tells the story
Speaker 1: and he reaches a crescendo and we're done with that
Speaker 1: part of the story, so now I need to tell
Speaker 1: you another part of the story. And then that builds
Speaker 1: to a crescendo and then he starts the story again
Speaker 1: building to this just phenomenal crescendo and then one key
Speaker 1: on the piano and when we played that for her
Speaker 1: and I gave her opening in the song. So while
Speaker 1: the song is playing in the background, I am giving
Speaker 1: her opening and it's so it's being delivered in a
Speaker 1: different way, and I start seeing the tears begin to
Speaker 1: well in her eyes. So then I called the rest
Speaker 1: of the team back into the room and I said,
Speaker 1: go give your opening. And it was truly amazing and
Speaker 1: that her entire body and her entire team felt the
Speaker 1: opening and it was just an incredible experience, not just
Speaker 1: for her but for all of us because she had
Speaker 1: an AHA moment and throughout the tournament, her best part
Speaker 1: of the entire tournament was in fact her opening, because
Speaker 1: she stopped being a student and she started being an advocate.
Speaker 1: And to me, that's what drives me. That's what gets
Speaker 1: me to get up every day and want to come
Speaker 1: in and do this. And Adrian, I hear you when
Speaker 1: you say, you know people are wondering if you're ever
Speaker 1: going to grow up and do something for a living.
Speaker 1: I get that all the time, I really do. But
Speaker 1: it's what drives me, and I really enjoy it. I
Speaker 1: just also want to highlight the amount of dedication and
Speaker 1: time also that it takes to be a trial team coach.
Speaker 1: I mean just hearing the stories that you all are telling.
Speaker 1: You know, it's not just like Okay, we're gonna spend
Speaker 1: an hour and go through your opening and like we're
Speaker 1: good to go. I mean, that will never never get
Speaker 1: you to where you need to be. Um, Laura, I
Speaker 1: remember when we were chatting, um, you know, a few
Speaker 1: weeks ago, and you said that you know, there's no
Speaker 1: necessarily secret sauce, but it's really who goes for it
Speaker 1: and who's willing to sort of spend their whole weekend
Speaker 1: and putting in the time and putting in the effort.
Speaker 1: And that's both on the students part and on your part.
Speaker 1: I mean just hearing you know, the cats sunglasses story
Speaker 1: and the song story and all of those like really creative, um,
Speaker 1: you know, techniques that you're helping your law students to
Speaker 1: be able to become better advocates through like really creative means.
Speaker 1: And so it's it's a lot of work and dedication.
Speaker 1: So when when you say you know, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: you're gonna grow up and have a real job someday.
Speaker 1: I just want to highlight for folks that it is
Speaker 1: as real as it gets. So real. I was just
Speaker 1: gonna say, it doesn't feel like work to us because
Speaker 1: it's it's it's just joy. It is it is watching
Speaker 1: being a military kid. For me, what it comes down
Speaker 1: to is, I'm I'm passing down the keys to protecting
Speaker 1: American democracy, to ensuring that people understand you have the
Speaker 1: right to to bring people in under the six and
Speaker 1: seventh Amendment, speak truth to power, and have your voice heard,
Speaker 1: regardless of where you fall on any of the variety
Speaker 1: of spectrums in this country, and you have that right.
Speaker 1: You have that ability to go out and protect these
Speaker 1: people with it right that meed suels me the way
Speaker 1: that with with what AJ talking about about watching them
Speaker 1: become that lawyer is I'm making sure that something's going
Speaker 1: to exist after me, that the things that I've been
Speaker 1: taught and that I've been gifted are there. So the
Speaker 1: twenty four hours of practice that happened on a weekend
Speaker 1: where you're looking at a kid and you want to
Speaker 1: jump up and down and the scream that if you
Speaker 1: don't stop doing the baby advocate box step where you
Speaker 1: shuffle back and forth in this little awkward box, and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna grab your feet and hold them and I'm
Speaker 1: going you are a tree and you are planted right.
Speaker 1: That doesn't feel like work, and all of that frustration
Speaker 1: stays away when you have those moments like a j
Speaker 1: is talking about, where all of a sudden you start
Speaker 1: to see the lawyer that was there all along because
Speaker 1: they stopped thinking of it as and now I have
Speaker 1: put on my suit, and now I am standing up
Speaker 1: and making my opening statement. And now I'm doing this,
Speaker 1: they get up and go, I have a point. Group.
Speaker 1: You're gonna hear me because I have a voice, and
Speaker 1: my voice should be heard just as much as anybody
Speaker 1: else's in this room. It's it's the best job ever.
Speaker 1: That's why it doesn't feel like a job. It sounds
Speaker 1: like so many of the anecdotes that you all have
Speaker 1: shared highlight the relationships that you have with your students,
Speaker 1: and I loved hearing Adria that you know you're still
Speaker 1: texting with your students and they are now in law
Speaker 1: school and just continuing to maintain those relationships with them.
Speaker 1: You all have called out so many different professors and
Speaker 1: trial team coaches who were important to you during your careers,
Speaker 1: and so I know you have so much wisdom to
Speaker 1: share with our listeners, and we want to get as
Speaker 1: much of it as possible, and so I wonder if
Speaker 1: you could share what advice you might have for aspiring
Speaker 1: law students. And it can be really about anything, it
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be related to trial team. But if
Speaker 1: we think about our listeners out there who are thinking,
Speaker 1: you know, about going to law school or maybe are
Speaker 1: in the one L experience right now, what would you
Speaker 1: want them to know? And I'll ask you first, Adria,
Speaker 1: if that's okay. I'm not picking on you, I swear no,
Speaker 1: I know I don't feel picked on. I'm just really
Speaker 1: I'm sort of sitting here thinking about it because I
Speaker 1: have so many thoughts. I guess to sort of piggyback
Speaker 1: off of sort of your last point about the relationships,
Speaker 1: I think that's one of the wonderful things that students
Speaker 1: who do mock trial to do trial advocacy they get
Speaker 1: from their peers and from their coaches. And so I
Speaker 1: think you know, whether you do mock trial or trial
Speaker 1: at or not, to be intentional about putting yourself in
Speaker 1: proximity to people who can expose you to the profession
Speaker 1: and to to be able to sort of pour into
Speaker 1: your life and to be also open to receiving it.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've often talked to our team about having
Speaker 1: a teachable spirit. Um, you know, some people, somebody can
Speaker 1: be pouring, but if if if the cap is closed,
Speaker 1: then none of that wisdom or information is going to
Speaker 1: be able to flow through. So I think just being
Speaker 1: open to receiving that kind of guidance and investing in relationships,
Speaker 1: which I think sometimes it's hard to do these days.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Blame some of that on the pandemic perhaps,
Speaker 1: but just being open to that. I'm would also say
Speaker 1: not being discouraged or frustrated if the first thing is
Speaker 1: not the thing. I think certainly I felt that way
Speaker 1: as a law student because I had all of these,
Speaker 1: you know, grand notions of what the law was going
Speaker 1: to be, and I got to my first semest of
Speaker 1: law school and I was like, well, what the heck
Speaker 1: is this like, this is this is not what I
Speaker 1: signed up for. Give me my money back, not what
Speaker 1: I signed up for. But then by the next year
Speaker 1: I was able to find classes that I really enjoyed,
Speaker 1: and I'm like Okay, I'm getting a little bit closer.
Speaker 1: The same is true with you know, some of those
Speaker 1: first jobs right after law school and maybe thinking like
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, is this it? And then you just
Speaker 1: continue to move closer and closer. I think what A
Speaker 1: J and Laura talked about, that place where it doesn't
Speaker 1: feel like work or you're you're you're finding um, sort
Speaker 1: of that synergy between the passions that you have and
Speaker 1: the work that you do each day. I think the
Speaker 1: closer and closer that you can get to that um,
Speaker 1: you can find joy and peace and meaning in life,
Speaker 1: but know that it doesn't necessarily all come at once
Speaker 1: in like Okay, I've gone to law school. Now all
Speaker 1: of the things are going to be right with the world.
Speaker 1: Or now I've passed the bar and I got this
Speaker 1: first job, like now this is it. No, it's a
Speaker 1: it's a process. And I think maybe, Helly, it was
Speaker 1: you that said it earlier. It's not linear. It's just
Speaker 1: it's not linear. So um, if you had asked me
Speaker 1: last I would have had my points enumerated. So that
Speaker 1: was somewhat circular answer, but hopefully I was helpful. E J.
Speaker 1: What about you? Yeah, I'm gonna be a broken record
Speaker 1: on on this one. It's something that I tell I
Speaker 1: go to every single orientation. I'm kind of the guy
Speaker 1: after lunch that goes in trying to wake keep people away,
Speaker 1: keep them going. The two o'clock guy, that's me. One
Speaker 1: of the things that I talked about is that we
Speaker 1: see more students come I'm to school now thinking that
Speaker 1: school is a part of their day instead of school
Speaker 1: being their job. And I think you have three years
Speaker 1: to get it right. That's it. You have three years
Speaker 1: to learn, you have three years to understand. You have
Speaker 1: three years to engage, fail, start again, learn again. You know.
Speaker 1: It's just it's an opportunity that no other job has
Speaker 1: where you have a three year period of just get
Speaker 1: in there and learn it fully. Engage yourself. Get involved
Speaker 1: with clubs, get involved with I don't care if it's moot,
Speaker 1: court or journal. Do do everything if you possibly can,
Speaker 1: but immerse yourself in law school. Go to school at
Speaker 1: eight am, go home at eight p m. Make it
Speaker 1: your every day for three years, because the more you
Speaker 1: expose yourself to the more you're going to realize there's
Speaker 1: a lot more down on the horizon for you. A
Speaker 1: lot of people come to school thinking that they want
Speaker 1: to be X, and then they get here and they
Speaker 1: realize no want to do that. But then they spent
Speaker 1: so much time away from school that they don't know
Speaker 1: what else to do, and so they almost get stuck
Speaker 1: right away. You've never done anything in environmental law. Go
Speaker 1: take an environmental law class, see if maybe there's a
Speaker 1: passion there. And we never know where we end up.
Speaker 1: I mean, we truly never know where. There's no way,
Speaker 1: in any way, anyway that anyone would have said, a
Speaker 1: j You're gonna end up teaching at St. Mary's University
Speaker 1: in San Antonio, Texas. Born in California, raised in Florida,
Speaker 1: lived in Maryland. You've never been in the middle part
Speaker 1: of the United States. You've never been in Texas. There's
Speaker 1: no way you're gonna end up down there in San Antonio. Yeah, here,
Speaker 1: I am. Relationships matter, and some of my closest friends
Speaker 1: still today are people that I met in law school.
Speaker 1: They're they're all becoming I mean, I had one that
Speaker 1: I can't say his name because he's been nominated for
Speaker 1: a federal judge ship and he's being he's being um,
Speaker 1: he's going through the background for that. So we have
Speaker 1: people well that you're just they're gonna be doing these incredible,
Speaker 1: fantastic things. One of my students is a congressman. Now,
Speaker 1: you just don't know where your paths are going to cross.
Speaker 1: And the more you can get involved with when you're
Speaker 1: in school, the more that you could stick it out
Speaker 1: and just do that, the more connections you can make,
Speaker 1: and the more opportunities are going to be available for
Speaker 1: you down the road. Definitely more than anything else. Never
Speaker 1: burn a bridge. Never ever burn a bridge, because less
Speaker 1: than one percent of our I think it's point zero
Speaker 1: one of our society, our lawyers. It's very very small club.
Speaker 1: And if you burn a bridge, everyone's going to know
Speaker 1: about it. So get involved, stay involved, and we are
Speaker 1: the people that can make a difference. So go out
Speaker 1: and make a difference. That's all the things that I
Speaker 1: think are important for people that want to go to
Speaker 1: law school. If you can't, if you don't have to work,
Speaker 1: don't work, stay in law school. Make it a job,
Speaker 1: all right, Laura, lest but not least, any advice you'd
Speaker 1: like to say, you will spend a lifetime building your
Speaker 1: professional computation, and every word that you do, every case
Speaker 1: that you take, every document that you file, every appearance
Speaker 1: that you make, you will spend your lifetime building your
Speaker 1: professional reputation. And you start building that professional reputation the
Speaker 1: moment you sign on the dotted line to sit for
Speaker 1: a class at a law school, and you need to
Speaker 1: embrace that and embrace the reality shift that that that is,
Speaker 1: professionals don't put everything that exists in their entire world
Speaker 1: on whatever thing of social media that I don't understand
Speaker 1: because I am an elder millennial and too cranky to
Speaker 1: learn these things are currently obsessed with. Right, we don't
Speaker 1: need to have our whole lives on TikTok or Instagram
Speaker 1: or Snapchat, And in fact, we monitor what it output
Speaker 1: there and understand that our digital imprint is a product
Speaker 1: and a part of our brand as much as anything else.
Speaker 1: We understand that we we are a self regulating profession
Speaker 1: because we abide by a code of ethics. So don't
Speaker 1: burn a bridge, but don't be afraid to take a
Speaker 1: stand when you see the wrong thing happening, and be
Speaker 1: brave enough to know that you're going to have to
Speaker 1: do that. One of the things that I tell my
Speaker 1: students all the time, tim is I am teaching you
Speaker 1: to disagree with somebody who was wearing a big, scary
Speaker 1: black robe and holds a lot of power, particularly in
Speaker 1: our jurisdiction. Right, the judges that are here, they've been
Speaker 1: on the bench for a hot minute, and we are
Speaker 1: a small bar. So yeah, if you burn a bridge,
Speaker 1: it can go down poorly. But if that judge is
Speaker 1: making a decision that you know is wrong, you have
Speaker 1: an obligation as the attorney to stand up against injustice
Speaker 1: and stand up against unfairness, and do the thing that
Speaker 1: you know is the right thing to do. Stay in
Speaker 1: touch with your morals, keep time to yourself. That has
Speaker 1: nothing to do with law school. Right. I agree with
Speaker 1: are that you should take it seriously, but you must
Speaker 1: inject into your life time that it's selfishly guarded and
Speaker 1: just yours. I had a professor and law school professor,
Speaker 1: and Eddie used to say, the law is a jealous
Speaker 1: mistress and she will take every ounce of your time
Speaker 1: that you do not ration away from her. And I
Speaker 1: teach my students that you have to balance your mental
Speaker 1: health because burnout is really real in this profession. It's
Speaker 1: a real easy thing to push for, it's a real
Speaker 1: easy thing to say. I can take another case. I
Speaker 1: can take another thing, I can do one more thing.
Speaker 1: But you have to learn what that balances, and you
Speaker 1: have to make the right decision, and you have to
Speaker 1: stay in touch with the reason that you walked into
Speaker 1: the building in the first place. When I when I
Speaker 1: talk to orientate and I always say, there's a reason
Speaker 1: each one of you came in here. Maybe one of
Speaker 1: you was treated unfairly by law enforcement, Maybe one of
Speaker 1: you had a family member that experienced the horrific medical
Speaker 1: malpractice issue. There's some there's some reason why you came
Speaker 1: here right. Maybe it's because you're trying to figure out
Speaker 1: what to do while the economy does whatever the economy
Speaker 1: is doing. There's a reason. Get in touch with that
Speaker 1: and and get connected to who you are. I'm a
Speaker 1: big believer in JOSEPHS. Campbell's theory of following your bliss.
Speaker 1: When you follow the things that make your heart thing
Speaker 1: and make you know that you're in the right place
Speaker 1: and doing the right thing. Greatness flows from that. Opportunity
Speaker 1: flows from that. You get to do the things that
Speaker 1: are the most impactful from that. So be connected to
Speaker 1: you and don't let them take that from you. I
Speaker 1: I am a fierce defender of the fact that in
Speaker 1: my office there are Harry Potter Lego mini figurines, and
Speaker 1: they will be there for ever because I enjoy those things.
Speaker 1: I keep the parts of my personality that are still Laura,
Speaker 1: even though I'm Professor Rose now and I have a
Speaker 1: whole lot of other responsibilities. You must learn to embrace
Speaker 1: all pieces of you, not just sheltered, compartmentalized genre. Thank
Speaker 1: you all so much for sharing that advice. That was
Speaker 1: so great, and honestly, I think some of the best
Speaker 1: advice we have heard from people on the podcast, So
Speaker 1: thank you. I'm sorry. Can I just add one other
Speaker 1: small thing to that point, of course? Okay, so very
Speaker 1: very practical, Um, do your best to minimize your debt.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to add that point, um, because when
Speaker 1: you're debt is lower, you have the freedom to be
Speaker 1: able to pursue the things that make your hearts saying,
Speaker 1: and to follow your morals, and to speak truth to power,
Speaker 1: and to do all of those high minded things that
Speaker 1: we talked about. When you have borrowed it's seen amount
Speaker 1: of money, it's a lot harder to do that. One
Speaker 1: of the reasons that I think I was able to
Speaker 1: sort of do the lead and the net will appear.
Speaker 1: Is because I had a scholarship. I had a full
Speaker 1: scholarship to go to law school. I had the opportunity
Speaker 1: to pursue pursue whatever prestige means schools that people said,
Speaker 1: oh my god, you're not gonna go to fill in
Speaker 1: the blank. Well I didn't get any money to that.
Speaker 1: And my father, who had no college degree but a
Speaker 1: lot of common sense, said, these people are gonna pay
Speaker 1: you for the degree, and these people are going to
Speaker 1: charge you for the same degree. Make it makes sense.
Speaker 1: You didn't think make it makes sense because nobody said
Speaker 1: that then. But you know what I mean. It's just like,
Speaker 1: I'm not suggesting that that's the path for everyone, but
Speaker 1: what I am saying is, and I think A j
Speaker 1: made the point, you can start law school thinking you're
Speaker 1: gonna do one thing, and as time goes on, you'll
Speaker 1: be pulled in other directions and that debt will be
Speaker 1: an albatross around your neck, strangling that freedom to be
Speaker 1: able to do the things that you want to pursue.
Speaker 1: So I just wanted to mention that just as a
Speaker 1: practical point. Yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned that. Because
Speaker 1: we haven't talked as much about that on the podcast,
Speaker 1: and it is just a stark reality that I think
Speaker 1: needs to be said and addressed, and as you said,
Speaker 1: can kind of dictate your career path afterwards, you know,
Speaker 1: if you don't have, you know, the financial freedom to
Speaker 1: be able to pursue the career path that maybe you
Speaker 1: want to. And I'll just stay on the flip side.
Speaker 1: You know, if you are in a position where you
Speaker 1: know you need to pay off loans and have to
Speaker 1: take a particular job, that doesn't mean that you'll always
Speaker 1: be in that position. And so you can still you know,
Speaker 1: switch careers and and maneuver into a place where you
Speaker 1: might you know, find your voice and that might be
Speaker 1: more of your calling, even if you have to sort
Speaker 1: of take a job that maybe isn't your first choice
Speaker 1: right out of law school too. So with that, we
Speaker 1: will move to our last question, and we like to
Speaker 1: end on this question with all of our guests. So
Speaker 1: the question is what a success mean to you? And
Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you, in the spirit of child Team,
Speaker 1: to try to keep this. You're closing arguments to two
Speaker 1: minutes or less if you will. As we kind of
Speaker 1: wrap up here, so a j I will kick it
Speaker 1: over to you. Yeah. I mean for me, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's pretty simple. I've had a couple of jobs in
Speaker 1: my life where I hated going to work. I couldn't
Speaker 1: stand it. And I had a job where I would
Speaker 1: the one before I was here. While it was a
Speaker 1: great job and I worked for great people, I would
Speaker 1: sit in the parking lot sometimes for up to two
Speaker 1: hours just to get in the building, just to muster
Speaker 1: the strength, the mental strength to get into the building.
Speaker 1: And while I was doing a great job, everybody loved me,
Speaker 1: the job wasn't loving me. It was killing me. It
Speaker 1: really was. So for me, success is very simple. I've
Speaker 1: had those jobs where I made a ton of money.
Speaker 1: I've had those jobs where I've made very little money.
Speaker 1: I'm in a job now where I'm making okay money.
Speaker 1: It's not about the money. What is success to me
Speaker 1: is that I look forward to tomorrow, that I can't
Speaker 1: wait to come in, I can't wait to do what
Speaker 1: I do to see the students. I can't wait to
Speaker 1: look at my phone and see what text I got
Speaker 1: from a current student or a former student while we
Speaker 1: were sitting here. I have three students who texted me saying, Hey,
Speaker 1: do you have a minute, I'd like to come by
Speaker 1: and just talk to you before finals. That means everything
Speaker 1: to me. That is complete happiness and joy. To me,
Speaker 1: I have grown kids, I have a very understanding wife,
Speaker 1: maybe to understanding, to be quite honest with you. But
Speaker 1: success to me is is not winning in the courtroom,
Speaker 1: although I really really love winning. Success to me is
Speaker 1: being happy at what I'm doing on a day and
Speaker 1: day ot basis, and I guess the day that I
Speaker 1: stopped being happy is is the day I stopped doing
Speaker 1: what I'm doing, Laura, what about you? Success for me
Speaker 1: is knowing at the end of the day that I've
Speaker 1: done my best with the opportunity that represent into me,
Speaker 1: with the materials and resources that I had at that day.
Speaker 1: And in a long term sense, it is did I
Speaker 1: leave people with a more positive impression than a negative impression?
Speaker 1: And did I positively impact their life more than I
Speaker 1: negatively impacted it? Did I did I make sure that
Speaker 1: I saw each person every single day. We just recently
Speaker 1: lost a titan up here at USC, professor Tom Horton,
Speaker 1: who was the trials and coach before I got the job,
Speaker 1: and one of the things that has come out as
Speaker 1: we been grieving him as a community is how much
Speaker 1: he saw every single student that went through his office
Speaker 1: and went through his classes and went through our law school.
Speaker 1: And that, to me is success to to be after
Speaker 1: a career of sacrifice and leadership and intense brilliant to
Speaker 1: have people stand and recognize what you gaze and to
Speaker 1: see the positive ripple effects and contributions from that, building
Speaker 1: that legacy, that success, and you get to engage in
Speaker 1: that in multiple different levels in life, that in multiple
Speaker 1: different stages, and the best part is that it can
Speaker 1: grow to fit where you are and what you are
Speaker 1: capable of at that time, so it's never an unachievable
Speaker 1: thing and it's always something that you can staff to
Speaker 1: get to the next moment. Well, Adrian, we started by
Speaker 1: picking on you, so we will end with you as well.
Speaker 1: What does success mean to you? So my word, my
Speaker 1: one word answer to that question would be freedom, at
Speaker 1: least individually for myself, the freedom to be able to choose.
Speaker 1: In fact, we used to have t shirts at Dillard
Speaker 1: for the pre law program that said freedom onto because
Speaker 1: that's really what it's all about. But beyond that, I
Speaker 1: guess the collective is you know, there's a I think
Speaker 1: an old gospel song that says something like, you know,
Speaker 1: only what we do for others will last. And I
Speaker 1: think both Laura and a J hit on that point,
Speaker 1: and I think ultimately that's that's that's what we'll be
Speaker 1: here when we are all long and gone. And I'm
Speaker 1: hopeful and I think just based upon the podcast episode
Speaker 1: and everything that's been shared here today, I think each
Speaker 1: one of us has been able to so seed in
Speaker 1: a way that will impact the lives of others and
Speaker 1: that will last absolutely. And just a reminder to our
Speaker 1: listeners that class Action with Kenny Fang is available wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to podcasts, and you can hear more from Adria,
Speaker 1: Laura and a J and their trial teams and the
Speaker 1: wonderful story of their trial team experiences through this podcast.
Speaker 1: And you can also find more information about class Action
Speaker 1: at class action pod dot com. Class Action is a
Speaker 1: production of Sound Argument and I Heart Media and we
Speaker 1: are so so thankful that you all had the time
Speaker 1: to chat with us today. This has been a really
Speaker 1: wonderful way to end our season and we thank you
Speaker 1: for your time. Thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 1: Thank you thanks for having us, Thank you, thank you
Speaker 1: for having us. Don't go away. There's more to come
Speaker 1: in the Due Diligence portion of our show. Hello, it
Speaker 1: is time for Due Diligence on our episode with a
Speaker 1: team from Class Action and Um also our last episode
Speaker 1: of season three. So Allison, as the trial team veteran
Speaker 1: and superstar that you are, I am going to throw
Speaker 1: it over to you to ask you your thoughts and
Speaker 1: what's stuck with you from this episode with Adria, a
Speaker 1: J and the Lura. Well, because I'm a trial team
Speaker 1: nerd UM, I just wanted to share sort of how
Speaker 1: I came to actually try out for a trial team
Speaker 1: at Northwestern because I think a lot of people who
Speaker 1: you know, go and try out for the team might
Speaker 1: know going in that they want to do trial team
Speaker 1: or have done some sort of mock trial in you know,
Speaker 1: undergrad all uh what Adria you know, was coaching her
Speaker 1: students to do. But I had never done any of that.
Speaker 1: I wasn't a debater, I wasn't like a mock trial
Speaker 1: person in college. And I really decided that I wanted
Speaker 1: to do it because I wanted to challenge myself kind
Speaker 1: of put myself outside of my comfort zone. So when
Speaker 1: I tried out for the team, I definitely, you know,
Speaker 1: I didn't really expect to make it. I just wanted
Speaker 1: to get out there and try to be a better
Speaker 1: public speaker. So I knew I wanted to be a litigator,
Speaker 1: or at least I thought very strongly that I wanted
Speaker 1: to be a litigator, and I understood that that requires
Speaker 1: you to be good at public speaking, at least in
Speaker 1: some capacity, and I knew that that was not my
Speaker 1: strong suit. And so I went out for the team,
Speaker 1: and you know, quite frankly, I totally thought that I
Speaker 1: kind of flopped the tryouts, and I ended up kind
Speaker 1: of making it through. And kudos to Rick Levin, who
Speaker 1: was my child team coach at Northwestern and all the
Speaker 1: other people on the team. But he, I think took
Speaker 1: a pretty big chance on me because I don't think
Speaker 1: I was a good public speaker when I started out,
Speaker 1: And you know, to this day, he says like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you were a little rough, rough, and when I decided
Speaker 1: to kind of take a chance on you, and he
Speaker 1: kindly did that, and I learned so much, and like
Speaker 1: I said during the episode, it really was the best
Speaker 1: experience I had in law school, because of the teammates
Speaker 1: that I had, because of the coach that that I had,
Speaker 1: how much I learned and how much confidence I gained,
Speaker 1: and so I just don't think that I would be,
Speaker 1: you know, in the space that I am today, including
Speaker 1: being able to stand up and teach and do what
Speaker 1: I do today without Trial Team. So it was incredibly
Speaker 1: impactful for me. And when we were talking with A
Speaker 1: J and Laura and Adria, you know, I could just
Speaker 1: send sort of their passion in teaching students to be
Speaker 1: great public speakers, to be great advocates, to as Laura said,
Speaker 1: speak truth to power. And I feel like Rick Levin
Speaker 1: did that for me. And so I just identified so
Speaker 1: much with the journeys that they're taking their students on,
Speaker 1: just so impressed with them and kind of the journey
Speaker 1: that they shared with us. I was the sole non
Speaker 1: trial team person on our conversation with them, but what
Speaker 1: I they had so many nuggets of wisdom and we
Speaker 1: can't make our due diligence as long as the actual episode,
Speaker 1: but one thing that I believe it was Adria said
Speaker 1: was don't be afraid if the first thing that you
Speaker 1: try is not the thing. And I think they were
Speaker 1: all examples of that, because they had interesting careers prior
Speaker 1: to going into teaching or going into advising or child
Speaker 1: team coaching, and followed their feelings as far as you know,
Speaker 1: realizing something was missing, realizing that they wanted to have
Speaker 1: some interaction with students, and and then ending up coaching
Speaker 1: these amazing trial teams. So they had a ton of
Speaker 1: great advice no matter the stage of life that you're
Speaker 1: in or no matter whether you want to be a
Speaker 1: litigator or not. I think a lot of it was applicable.
Speaker 1: But I also wanted to kind of make a programming
Speaker 1: note or just an overall observation since this was our
Speaker 1: last regular episode of season three, which is very hard
Speaker 1: to believe that we're already wrapping up our third season
Speaker 1: at Personal Jurisdiction. So when we started this podcast, our
Speaker 1: goal was to make sure that we were focusing on
Speaker 1: interviewing people within the first ten or so years of
Speaker 1: their legal practice or their career or whatever that may be,
Speaker 1: in order to really stay close to their experience and
Speaker 1: be able to connect what they're doing now with their
Speaker 1: law school experience. And in season three we've deviated from
Speaker 1: that a little bit, but that will always me and
Speaker 1: our goal and the reason why we had a few
Speaker 1: special episodes this season is that we are always looking
Speaker 1: for new and interesting things to share with our listeners
Speaker 1: and also looking for different ways that we can share
Speaker 1: helpful information and helpful experiences. Um. So, in particular with
Speaker 1: this last episode with the I always want to call
Speaker 1: them the cast of of Class Action, but I mean,
Speaker 1: they're all real people who did a real thing. Um
Speaker 1: with the coaches from Class Action. Was that Allison, like
Speaker 1: you just told us your trial team experience was formative
Speaker 1: for you. It really is the thing that you remember
Speaker 1: most from law school, apart from meeting me, you know,
Speaker 1: in constitutional criminal procedure um. And so we wanted to
Speaker 1: share that with our listeners too, and also deliver some
Speaker 1: really interesting background on each of the career paths that Adria,
Speaker 1: Laura and a J. Pad. So I just want to
Speaker 1: make a note of that since this is our last
Speaker 1: episode and last episode of the season, and time to
Speaker 1: be a little bit reflective about that. So we wish
Speaker 1: you all a wonderful end of year holiday season. In
Speaker 1: New Year, we are taking a break for the holiday,
Speaker 1: but we will be back in three with season four,
Speaker 1: and we hope that you follow us on Twitter to
Speaker 1: the extent it still exists, and also follow us on
Speaker 1: linked In for any updates about season four. We're excited
Speaker 1: to share what we have in store for you, and
Speaker 1: as always, if you have thoughts, suggestions, things that you love,
Speaker 1: things that you maybe didn't love, we would really enjoy
Speaker 1: hearing from you. So many of our guests this season
Speaker 1: came from either listeners who asked us to be on
Speaker 1: the podcast, or um outreach from people we did not know,
Speaker 1: or suggestions from previous guests and friends, so we're always
Speaker 1: happy to receive your questions and comments. They thank you
Speaker 1: so much for listening and for supporting Personal Jurisdiction. We
Speaker 1: are really thankful for your support and we will see
Speaker 1: you next time. See you next time. Personal Jurisdiction is
Speaker 1: powered and distributed by simple cast. You don't have to
Speaker 1: wait until next week to hear more. You can find
Speaker 1: us online at personal j x pod dot com and
Speaker 1: on Twitter at personal j x pod. Don't forget to
Speaker 1: subscribe to Personal Jurisdiction on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you like to listen, so that you can
Speaker 1: be updated on the latest and greatest from Personal jurisdiction.
Speaker 1: If you like what you hear, make sure to rate
Speaker 1: us five stars and leave a positive review so that
Speaker 1: other listeners can find our show too.