WEBVTT - Personal Jurisdiction S3E45: Let’s Get Personal with the Mock Trial Coaches from the Class Action Podcast 0:00:02.160 --> 0:00:04.680 And you get to use that to help people in 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:07.240 their twenties who are going through some of the most 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:09.079 confusing times in their life when the whole world of 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:10.799 streaming of them that they should be an indult and 0:00:10.840 --> 0:00:12.520 know how to do all of this while they're deferately 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:15.000 trying to figure out how they balance all of the 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:18.480 daily tasks of repetition that come with adulthood. You get 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:20.520 to stand there and help them across that bridge and 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:24.400 also placing them a seat to make sure that they 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:26.759 carry on the things that you're teaching them. That that 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:28.920 was why it spoke to me, because the ripple effect 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:32.360 that you can have in this job is unlike anything else. Hi, 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:35.800 I'm Hallie rit Sue and I'm Alison Friedman. And this 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:39.720 is Personal Jurisdiction, a podcast or get personal with lawyers 0:00:39.760 --> 0:00:43.159 about their journeys before, during, and after law school. Join 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:45.800 us for season three as our guests share there behind 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:48.400 the scenes reflections on the highs and lows of how 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:57.520 they got to where they are today. On today's episode 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:01.480 of Personal Jurisdiction, we welcome Adric Embro, Laura Rose, and 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:04.200 A J. B. Though they Luna, they are several of 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:07.200 the trial team coaches from the podcast class Action with 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:11.640 Katie Fang. Class Action is an immersive, twelve part documentary 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:14.760 podcast series about the next generation of lawyers, heard through 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:17.960 the voices of law students competing in mock trial tournaments 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:21.240 around the country. We first learned about class Action through 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:24.679 a conversation with producers Lisa Gray and Kevin Hoffman and 0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:27.520 thought it would be fun and wonderful to hear from 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:29.920 a few of the trial team coaches featured on class 0:01:29.959 --> 0:01:32.880 Action to learn more about their career journeys, why they've 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:35.720 dedicated their time to coaching trial teams, and the advice 0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:39.399 they have for aspiring lawyers. Adria Kimbro is the student 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:42.560 recruiting manager in the Marshall Motley Scholars Program at the 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:46.120 n double a CP Legal Defense and Educational Fund. Previously, 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:48.720 Adria was a pre law advisor at Dillard University in 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:51.080 New Orleans and served as one of the university's mock 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:54.600 trial team coaches. Adria is a graduate of Talladega College 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:58.000 and the University of Cincinnati College of Law. Laura Rose 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:00.640 is an Associate Professor of Law Band the Hide to 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:04.120 Prime Trial Advocacy Fellow at the University of South Dakota 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:06.520 nuts In School of Law. Laura is a graduate of 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:10.040 Stetson University and Stetson University College of Law. A J. 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:13.040 B Tho They Luna is the Assistant Dean for Advocacy 0:02:13.120 --> 0:02:16.080 Programs and the Hardy Service Professor of Law at St. 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:19.400 Mary's University School of Law in San Antonio, Texas. He 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:23.079 teaches trial advocacy and arbitration and directs the Law Schools 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:26.640 Advocacy Program National Team. A J. Is a graduate of 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:30.520 Johns Hopkins University and the University of Maryland School of Law. 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:34.400 Please enjoy this conversation with our friends from Class Action. 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:40.320 Welcome back to Personal Jurisdiction. We are here for our 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:44.399 last episode of season three and we're so excited that 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:47.560 we have the opportunity to talk to several of the 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:53.239 trial team coaches that were featured in the Class Action podcast. Laura, 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:55.840 Adria and a J. Thank you so much for joining 0:02:55.919 --> 0:02:58.400 us today. We're so happy to see you. It's awesome. 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:01.240 Thanks for having us, really excited. Yes, thanks for having us. 0:03:01.320 --> 0:03:03.280 Thank you so much for asking us to come hang out. 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:05.440 I think this is the most people we've had on 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:08.919 a recording at once, so that's great too. And We're 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:11.440 just going to jump right in and we're gonna ask 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:14.560 some questions that are similar to what we chat about 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:18.840 on a normal episode of our podcast. And our listeners 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:22.480 are at several stages of their careers. Some are thinking 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:26.720 about law school, some are current law students, and some 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:29.600 are practicing attorneys. And one of the things that we 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:33.239 really enjoy hearing about from our guests is why they 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:36.520 decided to go to law school. So I would love 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:40.520 to start our conversation with asking each of you why 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:42.800 you went to law school. And Adrian, would you be 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:45.360 willing to start us off today? How did I know 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:48.640 you were going to say? It's like, well, alpha order, 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:50.800 so maybe it's going to be me first. So I 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:54.640 felt ready I'd offered sort of too two part answer 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:59.440 to your question. I was the proverbial kid who you know, 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:02.560 top a lot and like to argue, and somebody says, oh, 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:04.560 you want to go to law school, which is a 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:06.600 terrible reason to go to law school, So let me 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:09.760 say that, But um, that was part of it. I 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:12.800 think there were people my family, people in my community 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:16.400 perhaps who did not have a lot of exposure to law, 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:20.680 but knew that lawyers um use their voices to advocate 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:23.760 for themselves or for other people, and they thought based 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:26.479 upon I guess some sort of natural attributes, that I 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:29.000 might be a good candidate for that. I think the 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:31.800 other piece has a lot to do with my own 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:36.479 personal origin story. UM. So, I am originally from Mobile, Alabama, 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:41.880 born and raised, and I was raised by civil rights parents, UH, 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:45.599 civil rights air parents, and UM, I grew up having 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:49.560 an understanding a sense of history, especially of Black Americans 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:52.520 in this country and the ways in which the law 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:56.680 was able to help advance the cause for racial justice 0:04:56.720 --> 0:05:00.400 in this country. Fast forward to the eighties. Believe it 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:03.919 or not, Mobile Alabama wonderful place, but also has the 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:08.240 unfortunate distinction of being the last reported location of a 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:11.720 clan lynching, which happened in the eighties and my lifetime 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:14.520 about i'd say two miles away from the house where 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:17.240 I grew up. And Um, there was a man by 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:19.960 the name of Michael Donald who was lynched by the clan. 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:26.080 UM fast forward, Um, the individuals who lynched Michael Donald 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:30.320 were held They were convicted criminally, but there's also a 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.440 lawsuit against the clan. There may be some folks who've 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:37.080 heard of this story. Was featured on CNN and a documentary. 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:40.320 But Morris D's in the Southern Poverty Law Center, along 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:43.920 with some other local lawyers, sue the clan and they won, 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:48.640 and as a result of that lawsuit, that judgment bankrupted 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:50.919 the clan, at least the organized clan as we know 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:54.240 it today. And I just remember thinking, oh, you can 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:58.400 do that, Like something happens so tragic, and of course 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:01.360 none of those things bring the life of the loved 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:05.760 one back, but to realize, like, things can happen, and 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:08.920 there is a mechanism and a tool to be able 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:11.480 to address those kinds of issues, And I just remember 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:16.080 being so completely taken aback by that and thinking what 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:19.559 a powerful tool to have and something that I wanted 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:22.120 to be able to learn about more and to be 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:25.520 able to use as a vehicle to advance issues of 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:28.440 justice that I saw income a community. So that was probably, 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:31.360 as time went on, a big part of my reason 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:33.920 for wanting to go to law school. Laura, what about you? 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:37.560 So law school was the plan from a very young age. 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:41.080 The timing wasn't necessarily what I had hoped that it 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:44.120 would be. I graduated from college in two thousand nine, 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:47.880 and it was at the very beginning of the housing crisis, 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:50.080 when everything kind of turned up lay down, and prior 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:53.760 to starting the fall semester at law school, I had 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:55.800 been intending to go out to New York and give 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:59.560 myself five years and just pursue acting and passions in 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:02.120 that direction. And when I saw what was coming with 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:04.599 the housing market, my political science made your brain took 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:06.680 over and went, no, we're going to be practical and 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:08.320 we're gonna make sure that we can pay bills and 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:11.120 feed ourselves and do things rather than go live a 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:14.000 serving artist life for a little bit. But the start 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:16.240 of wanting to go to law school really started because 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:19.440 when I started school, my dad started law school. So 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:21.200 we would get up in the morning and we would 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:22.720 pack up our stuffs to go to school, and it 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:24.520 would be daddy and daughter go to school. He would 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:26.760 drop me off at kindergarten and he'd go off down 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:28.320 the road to Notre Dame to go to law school 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:30.360 for the day. And I grew up around it, and 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:33.080 I grew up around it, knowing the impact that the 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:35.840 law could have and the impact that advocacy could have, 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:38.280 and the changes that it could reak in people's lives, 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:40.920 and the ability that it gave people to speak truths 0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:43.200 to power and and look at people and say, you're 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:45.840 going to take this seriously and you're gonna treat everybody 0:07:45.880 --> 0:07:48.920 equally under the law, because that's how this work. That's 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:52.000 that very very well with me and my inner child, 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:54.600 who very similar to Adria. I was always told, oh, yeah, 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:56.520 you're you're gonna end up a lawyer because I couldn't 0:07:56.640 --> 0:07:59.680 listen to people be wrong and not pointed out for them. Um, 0:07:59.720 --> 0:08:01.760 I I don't see where that's a character flaw to 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:04.040 this day, but I think that it was a It 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:05.880 was a calling. And I think a lot of people 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:07.600 who get involved in this, and the people that you 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:10.520 hear about on the podcast in particular, everybody in this room, 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:12.920 you're called to it. There is something about that service 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:15.160 and that leadership that comes from it, of wanting to 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:17.200 stand up for your fellow human being. And I think 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:18.880 it spoke to me from a young age, and I 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:20.760 pursued it and I ended up in the best job 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:22.920 in the best place that I possibly could have. Well, 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:25.760 I'm hearing a thread here which is both of you saying, 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:28.400 you know, essentially that can see piece of things and 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:32.240 speaking truth to power are two important pieces which obviously 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:34.360 there's no question as to how you ended up then 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:38.600 going into a coaching but AJM expecting you to follow 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:42.240 this threat exactly. So please tell us why was that 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:45.040 you into law school? Well, I'm going to concede to 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:48.080 my two counterparts here. Uh, they could have the point. 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:51.360 I'm out. Those are great. I am a complete accident. 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:55.040 Law school student can't have to go back. My parents 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:58.520 were immigrants to this country. They were fled Fidel Castro 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:01.600 and Communist Cuba with the clothes on their back. That 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:03.440 was it. I had a brother and a sister born 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:05.760 in Cuba, and my mother was eight months pregnant with 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:08.320 my next sister. We were okay for the first couple 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:10.240 of years, and then there was this big earthquake in 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:13.520 California and we lost everything and we went from being 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:16.320 okay living a good life too. We were dirt port 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:19.760 and I mean dirt port, Evicted from homes, going to 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:24.240 kitchen soup kitchens for meals, going without eating, going without 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:27.320 heat in Boston in the wintertime. It was bad. It 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:30.800 really was. And I remember a childhood thinking that I 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:33.240 was going to amount to nothing. To be quite honest 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:35.440 with you, and my parents. My mother didn't speak English, 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:38.600 my father spoke some English. They were brown and my 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:41.160 father was brown skinned. My mother's white skin. Her family 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:44.800 is more from Spain than Cuba. So I went to 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:47.200 the Marine Corps when I turned eighteen years old because 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:49.760 that's the only way that I saw how to get 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:53.319 out of the cycle that I was in. My older 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:56.880 sister had gone to community college, didn't succeed. My next 0:09:56.920 --> 0:10:00.760 sister went to Georgia on a music scholars She lasted 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:04.040 a year, she didn't succeed, And I went and joined 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:06.480 the Marine Corps. And the Marine Corps was a complete 0:10:06.480 --> 0:10:09.959 lifeserver for me. I will I will always be indebted 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:11.600 to the Corps for giving me a lot of things 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:14.720 like discipline and uh and believing in myself that I 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:18.160 never really had growing up. So I became a police officer. 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:20.959 After I left the Marine Corps and I started going 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:23.440 to community college. It took me thirteen years to get 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:27.920 my A A degree, and then Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore. 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:31.760 It had a program for aspiring leaders in law. It 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:35.240 was to finish out your your bachelor's degree. So I 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:38.679 went to Hopkins and when I was finishing up at Hopkins. 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:40.400 A friend of mine by the name of lie Maattic. 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:42.640 She was the first sergeant with the state Police, maybe 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:44.520 she was a lieutenant by then. She said, what are 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:46.320 you gonna do after Hopkins? And I said, I don't know, 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:48.280 Maybe I'll go get a master's And she said, you 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:50.760 should go to law school. And I said, okay. And 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:52.920 that's how I ended up in law school. I never 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:55.959 dreamed about it. I never thought that was in my history. 0:10:56.720 --> 0:10:59.000 There's no way that anyone that knew me when I 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:01.280 was a kid wouldever eve that I would want to 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:04.679 be or even aspire to be an attorney in anyway. 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:07.040 It was just good things happened to me, and there 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:09.800 were good people along the way who made good recommendations 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:11.880 to me, and I'm thankful to all of them. Thank 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:17.079 you all for sharing the really intensely personal things that 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:21.800 contributed towards your path to the law. That's one of 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:24.960 the things that we love the most about this podcast 0:11:25.120 --> 0:11:29.079 is seeing so many examples of how there is no 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:32.800 one path to law school, and that for many people, 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:37.400 I think more than we realize, that path is not linear, 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:42.120 It is not straight from college. It is not necessarily 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:46.360 someone who knows Okay, well, I'm a really argumentative child, 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:48.679 and so I'm going to go be a litigator. It's 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:52.520 a discovery process and it's a process that you know 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:56.840 takes a lot of help in sometimes more than three years. 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:02.160 So I can see in working with you how trial 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:06.200 team coaching has fit into your career. But I would 0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:09.880 love to hear from you, including how you know that 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:12.559 may relate to the types of jobs that you were 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:15.679 doing at the time or when you started trial team coaching. 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:19.040 How did you get there, Why did you decide to 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:22.880 start coaching trial teams and a j I will start 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:25.480 with you this time. That's a really great question. So 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:27.640 for me, I think it goes back to even when 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:30.560 I was a kid. I was never really good at sports. 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:32.800 I was a smart kid, but never really good at sports. 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:37.080 But I understood tactics really well. And even as a kid, 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:39.760 I started coaching. I remember I was I was thirteen 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:42.720 years old and I got a summer job teaching um 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:46.320 elementary school kids. Pe for a summer job. Right, poor 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:48.520 kids can get jobs and get paid for the summer. 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:51.559 I think I got paid five dollars a day to 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:54.319 go do this, and I started teaching kids how to 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:57.400 play softball. I couldn't hit a baseball. I could teach 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:00.120 anybody how to hit a baseball, though, even as as 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:02.240 as a twelve thirteen year old, I was able to 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:04.600 teach somebody else how to do it. I understood the 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:06.679 mechanics of it. The same was true when I went 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:09.760 to the Marine Corps. I remember I was a good marine, 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:12.240 but I wasn't a great marine. I certainly wasn't an 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:15.520 average marine. I was better than average marine. Believe it 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:18.280 or not, there are classes of marine. But I remember 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:20.680 one day and somebody had said to me, you know, 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:22.760 a college boy, come over here. I had never been 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:24.560 to college, but there was something in the way that 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:26.960 I could explain something to others that they would have 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:30.400 me come over and help people understand stuff. And then 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:32.559 that that just kept progressing all the way through my 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:35.000 law enforcement career, and then I got to law school. 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:36.719 I remember one day I got to law school and 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:38.920 gentleman by the name of Jerome D's I was still 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:41.600 a police officer. I was working shift work. Sometimes I'd 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:43.600 have to pay people to work part of my shift 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:45.560 a couple of hours, so I would go to the 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:47.960 edge of the county wait for somebody to call in 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:50.679 service for me, and then I would rush into law 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:53.880 school and right at six o'clock, parking was free on 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:55.439 the street, so I would go right in front of 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:57.720 the building at six o'clock, run of the door in 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:00.719 uniform with my gun on, and run the class so 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:02.880 I could be in class, you know, five minutes late, 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:05.360 but you know, to me, that was on time. And 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:07.480 I remember Jerome d stopped me at the door and 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:09.640 he said why are you here? And I said, I 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:10.959 I need to go to class. He goes, no, no, 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:13.480 why why are you here? And we played this cat 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:15.640 and mouse game of why I was here, and he 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:19.200 was offended that I was wearing a gun inside of 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:21.400 the law school building. He was offended by that. But 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:23.440 I'm not going to leave a gun in Baltimore City 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:26.840 in a police car. I'm just not going to do that, right, 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:28.920 So he and I got into a bit of an argument, 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:31.440 and then I got this notice a couple of days 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:33.720 later that I was to be in his office the 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:36.600 next day at four o'clock or something like that. And 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:38.880 I normally don't get to school until six, but it 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:41.440 was my day off. Well. Jerry Ds was the director 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:45.040 of the trial program at Maryland and he saw something 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:48.480 in me, and so I came to his office. We 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:51.360 had a discussion. We talked about the gun thing. He 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:54.120 got over it very quickly once he understood what my 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:56.840 situation was, and then he asked me if I would 0:14:56.840 --> 0:14:59.640 come in on Saturday. There was a Supreme Court clerk 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:03.000 that was coming in to judge a team for a competition, 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:06.520 and he wanted to have a real police officer play 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:10.360 the character in one of these mock trial competitions. So 0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:12.680 I said sure, and it was an all day affair 0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:16.160 and I kept playing the cop different ways, good cop, 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:18.920 bad cop, mean cop, soft cop. I mean. He would 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:20.560 just say do it this way, do it this way, 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:22.760 do it this way. And it was the same case, 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:26.240 but a different kind of police officer to help train 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:32.360 those students, and I just thought, wow, that's really cool. Um, 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.480 So Jerry and I became friends. Again. I'm a little 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:37.960 older than the average law student. I think I was 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:42.000 in my thirties, and Jerry and I became friends, and 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:44.120 then I made the team. And then when I made 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:46.880 the team, he had me as the first student coach 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:50.760 of the team. So I started coaching right away out 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:52.920 of the box. I want my first competition out of 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:56.680 fantastic team, we want our first competition, the Daniels competition, 0:15:57.200 --> 0:15:59.960 and then after that, I basically became a student coach, 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.760 except I think compete a couple more times. But after 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:04.880 I graduated, Jerry d said, hey, you need to come 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:07.760 on and just help me keep coaching. So it was Jerry. 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:10.560 Jerry saw something in me. He was a great mentor 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:13.360 of mine and he's the one that put the bug 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:16.000 in me to coach, and that's how it all started 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:18.560 for me. I can tell you that it's continued because 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:22.240 of people like Laura Rose's dad, Charlie Rose, And I'm 0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:25.480 in this job now because of Charlie Rose. Well some 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:27.360 of it has to do with me, but it's Charlie 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:29.920 Rose why I give credit for me being here, because 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:31.960 I wouldn't have gotten this job without him. He was 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:35.120 looking out for me and he helped me secure this job. 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:37.800 So it's because of others that I ended up doing 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:39.720 this kind of work. Yeah, that's one of the other 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:42.040 big things that we talked about often on the podcast 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:45.280 is just the idea of mentorship and how important that 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:48.920 can be, and also sort of networking or connections to 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:52.920 people and maintaining sort of, you know, a connections to 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:55.920 other other individuals who might be able to help you 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:58.080 or put you on a path that maybe you didn't 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:01.000 even know about or know that you you wanted to pursue. 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:03.840 So I love to hear that. And that's a perfect 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:07.280 segue to Laura us And you just referenced her dad 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:11.040 and and his his helpfulness in terms of your career. 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:14.080 So Laura, will you give us a sense of, you know, 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:17.120 how you made your way to being a trial team coach. 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:20.120 When I started law school, I was vehemently against doing 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:23.320 anything with criminal law, and vehemently against doing anything to 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:26.159 do with litigation, and vehemently against anything to do with 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:28.760 military law because it would put me square in my 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:32.520 father's shadow. I had this idea, this wonderful dream, that 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:35.040 I was going to become a contract lawyer and I 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:37.399 was going to help negotiate the right to the oil 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:39.919 wells that exists in the North Sea off the northern 0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:42.159 coast of Scotland. And then I took contracts and I 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:44.760 wanted to just absolutely scoop my own eyeballs out with 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:47.000 the rusty soon. And when we were talking about what 0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:49.480 offer acceptance in consideration and all of this stuff was 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:52.800 and I realized that was not my calling. And unfortunately, 0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:54.920 as I have to say often in life, my dad 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:57.920 ended up being right right and it was litigation. And 0:17:58.000 --> 0:17:59.760 I will tell you right here, right now, that trial 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:02.000 saved my life and made me a better person. And 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:04.560 it made be a better person because I didn't get 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:06.840 it when I wanted it. The first time I tried 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:09.120 out for steps in his trial team as a second 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:12.000 year law student and there was a very strict eight 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:15.119 minute time limit that was said. I went five words 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:17.720 over the eight minute time limit. Dad is the director 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:19.359 of the program at the time, and they kept me 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:22.600 instantaneously like there's no there's no discussion, there's no anything, 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:25.840 there's no stacy that or anything. You're just done right. 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:28.679 And I'm mortified because I have let down the family 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:31.520 name and all this other stuff. But my coach, Professor Topics, 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:33.399 lives at me and said, you can do shadow teams 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:35.200 and you can figure this out and you can learn. 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:36.720 And I made a decision that I was going to 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:39.120 fwallow my pride and recognize that I had more things 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:41.480 to learn than I realized and that I needed to 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:44.320 grow from that. And it made me a better human 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:46.560 being because I got to grow from that. And I 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:49.960 did six competitions that year as a shadow team member, 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:52.280 where I was just I was taking every opportunity that 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:53.959 I could get to get into the courtroom and do 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:56.600 this because it made law school come back to life 0:18:56.600 --> 0:18:59.560 for me. It saved the idea of getting my j D. 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:02.480 It ate it worthwhile because it showed me an active 0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:05.440 way in which I could make it difference right, and 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:08.560 that that got strengthened and heightened when I took We 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:11.119 had a class club constitutional on the Civil Rights movement 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:13.720 that Professor Bickle Toot and we would go and we 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:15.720 would study the decisions of the war in court for 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:17.680 six weeks. And after we studied the decisions of the 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:20.159 War in Court, we went on the Freedom read and 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:22.159 we got to go with an actual freedom writer. We 0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:24.560 met up in Nashville and we went to different locations, 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:26.840 and I can remember standing in Nashville and him talking 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:29.080 about how he and his friends had to go outside 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:30.920 into the alleyways to use the restroom because they weren't 0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:32.520 allowed to use the restroom in the buildings there were 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:35.520 no colored restrooms, and thinking about how I had struggled 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:37.760