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Speaker 1: And you get to use that to help people in

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Speaker 1: their twenties who are going through some of the most

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Speaker 1: confusing times in their life when the whole world of

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Speaker 1: streaming of them that they should be an indult and

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Speaker 1: know how to do all of this while they're deferately

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out how they balance all of the

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Speaker 1: daily tasks of repetition that come with adulthood. You get

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Speaker 1: to stand there and help them across that bridge and

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Speaker 1: also placing them a seat to make sure that they

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Speaker 1: carry on the things that you're teaching them. That that

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Speaker 1: was why it spoke to me, because the ripple effect

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Speaker 1: that you can have in this job is unlike anything else. Hi,

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Speaker 1: I'm Hallie rit Sue and I'm Alison Friedman. And this

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Speaker 1: is Personal Jurisdiction, a podcast or get personal with lawyers

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Speaker 1: about their journeys before, during, and after law school. Join

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Speaker 1: us for season three as our guests share there behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes reflections on the highs and lows of how

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Speaker 1: they got to where they are today. On today's episode

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Speaker 1: of Personal Jurisdiction, we welcome Adric Embro, Laura Rose, and

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Speaker 1: A J. B. Though they Luna, they are several of

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Speaker 1: the trial team coaches from the podcast class Action with

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Speaker 1: Katie Fang. Class Action is an immersive, twelve part documentary

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Speaker 1: podcast series about the next generation of lawyers, heard through

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Speaker 1: the voices of law students competing in mock trial tournaments

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Speaker 1: around the country. We first learned about class Action through

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Speaker 1: a conversation with producers Lisa Gray and Kevin Hoffman and

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Speaker 1: thought it would be fun and wonderful to hear from

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Speaker 1: a few of the trial team coaches featured on class

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Speaker 1: Action to learn more about their career journeys, why they've

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Speaker 1: dedicated their time to coaching trial teams, and the advice

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Speaker 1: they have for aspiring lawyers. Adria Kimbro is the student

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Speaker 1: recruiting manager in the Marshall Motley Scholars Program at the

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Speaker 1: n double a CP Legal Defense and Educational Fund. Previously,

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Speaker 1: Adria was a pre law advisor at Dillard University in

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Speaker 1: New Orleans and served as one of the university's mock

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Speaker 1: trial team coaches. Adria is a graduate of Talladega College

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Speaker 1: and the University of Cincinnati College of Law. Laura Rose

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Speaker 1: is an Associate Professor of Law Band the Hide to

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Speaker 1: Prime Trial Advocacy Fellow at the University of South Dakota

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Speaker 1: nuts In School of Law. Laura is a graduate of

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Speaker 1: Stetson University and Stetson University College of Law. A J.

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Speaker 1: B Tho They Luna is the Assistant Dean for Advocacy

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Speaker 1: Programs and the Hardy Service Professor of Law at St.

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Speaker 1: Mary's University School of Law in San Antonio, Texas. He

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Speaker 1: teaches trial advocacy and arbitration and directs the Law Schools

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Speaker 1: Advocacy Program National Team. A J. Is a graduate of

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Speaker 1: Johns Hopkins University and the University of Maryland School of Law.

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Speaker 1: Please enjoy this conversation with our friends from Class Action.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Personal Jurisdiction. We are here for our

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Speaker 1: last episode of season three and we're so excited that

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Speaker 1: we have the opportunity to talk to several of the

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Speaker 1: trial team coaches that were featured in the Class Action podcast. Laura,

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Speaker 1: Adria and a J. Thank you so much for joining

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Speaker 1: us today. We're so happy to see you. It's awesome.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having us, really excited. Yes, thanks for having us.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for asking us to come hang out.

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Speaker 1: I think this is the most people we've had on

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Speaker 1: a recording at once, so that's great too. And We're

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Speaker 1: just going to jump right in and we're gonna ask

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Speaker 1: some questions that are similar to what we chat about

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Speaker 1: on a normal episode of our podcast. And our listeners

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Speaker 1: are at several stages of their careers. Some are thinking

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Speaker 1: about law school, some are current law students, and some

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Speaker 1: are practicing attorneys. And one of the things that we

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Speaker 1: really enjoy hearing about from our guests is why they

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Speaker 1: decided to go to law school. So I would love

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Speaker 1: to start our conversation with asking each of you why

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Speaker 1: you went to law school. And Adrian, would you be

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Speaker 1: willing to start us off today? How did I know

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Speaker 1: you were going to say? It's like, well, alpha order,

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Speaker 1: so maybe it's going to be me first. So I

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Speaker 1: felt ready I'd offered sort of too two part answer

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Speaker 1: to your question. I was the proverbial kid who you know,

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Speaker 1: top a lot and like to argue, and somebody says, oh,

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Speaker 1: you want to go to law school, which is a

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Speaker 1: terrible reason to go to law school, So let me

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Speaker 1: say that, But um, that was part of it. I

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Speaker 1: think there were people my family, people in my community

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Speaker 1: perhaps who did not have a lot of exposure to law,

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Speaker 1: but knew that lawyers um use their voices to advocate

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Speaker 1: for themselves or for other people, and they thought based

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Speaker 1: upon I guess some sort of natural attributes, that I

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Speaker 1: might be a good candidate for that. I think the

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Speaker 1: other piece has a lot to do with my own

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Speaker 1: personal origin story. UM. So, I am originally from Mobile, Alabama,

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Speaker 1: born and raised, and I was raised by civil rights parents, UH,

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Speaker 1: civil rights air parents, and UM, I grew up having

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Speaker 1: an understanding a sense of history, especially of Black Americans

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Speaker 1: in this country and the ways in which the law

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Speaker 1: was able to help advance the cause for racial justice

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Speaker 1: in this country. Fast forward to the eighties. Believe it

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Speaker 1: or not, Mobile Alabama wonderful place, but also has the

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Speaker 1: unfortunate distinction of being the last reported location of a

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Speaker 1: clan lynching, which happened in the eighties and my lifetime

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Speaker 1: about i'd say two miles away from the house where

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Speaker 1: I grew up. And Um, there was a man by

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Speaker 1: the name of Michael Donald who was lynched by the clan.

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Speaker 1: UM fast forward, Um, the individuals who lynched Michael Donald

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Speaker 1: were held They were convicted criminally, but there's also a

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Speaker 1: lawsuit against the clan. There may be some folks who've

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Speaker 1: heard of this story. Was featured on CNN and a documentary.

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Speaker 1: But Morris D's in the Southern Poverty Law Center, along

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Speaker 1: with some other local lawyers, sue the clan and they won,

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Speaker 1: and as a result of that lawsuit, that judgment bankrupted

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Speaker 1: the clan, at least the organized clan as we know

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Speaker 1: it today. And I just remember thinking, oh, you can

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Speaker 1: do that, Like something happens so tragic, and of course

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Speaker 1: none of those things bring the life of the loved

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Speaker 1: one back, but to realize, like, things can happen, and

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Speaker 1: there is a mechanism and a tool to be able

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Speaker 1: to address those kinds of issues, And I just remember

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Speaker 1: being so completely taken aback by that and thinking what

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Speaker 1: a powerful tool to have and something that I wanted

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Speaker 1: to be able to learn about more and to be

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Speaker 1: able to use as a vehicle to advance issues of

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Speaker 1: justice that I saw income a community. So that was probably,

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Speaker 1: as time went on, a big part of my reason

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Speaker 1: for wanting to go to law school. Laura, what about you?

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Speaker 1: So law school was the plan from a very young age.

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Speaker 1: The timing wasn't necessarily what I had hoped that it

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Speaker 1: would be. I graduated from college in two thousand nine,

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Speaker 1: and it was at the very beginning of the housing crisis,

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Speaker 1: when everything kind of turned up lay down, and prior

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Speaker 1: to starting the fall semester at law school, I had

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Speaker 1: been intending to go out to New York and give

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Speaker 1: myself five years and just pursue acting and passions in

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Speaker 1: that direction. And when I saw what was coming with

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Speaker 1: the housing market, my political science made your brain took

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Speaker 1: over and went, no, we're going to be practical and

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Speaker 1: we're gonna make sure that we can pay bills and

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Speaker 1: feed ourselves and do things rather than go live a

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Speaker 1: serving artist life for a little bit. But the start

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Speaker 1: of wanting to go to law school really started because

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Speaker 1: when I started school, my dad started law school. So

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Speaker 1: we would get up in the morning and we would

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Speaker 1: pack up our stuffs to go to school, and it

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Speaker 1: would be daddy and daughter go to school. He would

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Speaker 1: drop me off at kindergarten and he'd go off down

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Speaker 1: the road to Notre Dame to go to law school

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Speaker 1: for the day. And I grew up around it, and

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Speaker 1: I grew up around it, knowing the impact that the

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Speaker 1: law could have and the impact that advocacy could have,

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Speaker 1: and the changes that it could reak in people's lives,

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Speaker 1: and the ability that it gave people to speak truths

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Speaker 1: to power and and look at people and say, you're

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Speaker 1: going to take this seriously and you're gonna treat everybody

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Speaker 1: equally under the law, because that's how this work. That's

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Speaker 1: that very very well with me and my inner child,

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Speaker 1: who very similar to Adria. I was always told, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're you're gonna end up a lawyer because I couldn't

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Speaker 1: listen to people be wrong and not pointed out for them. Um,

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Speaker 1: I I don't see where that's a character flaw to

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Speaker 1: this day, but I think that it was a It

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Speaker 1: was a calling. And I think a lot of people

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Speaker 1: who get involved in this, and the people that you

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Speaker 1: hear about on the podcast in particular, everybody in this room,

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Speaker 1: you're called to it. There is something about that service

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Speaker 1: and that leadership that comes from it, of wanting to

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Speaker 1: stand up for your fellow human being. And I think

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Speaker 1: it spoke to me from a young age, and I

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Speaker 1: pursued it and I ended up in the best job

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Speaker 1: in the best place that I possibly could have. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm hearing a thread here which is both of you saying,

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Speaker 1: you know, essentially that can see piece of things and

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Speaker 1: speaking truth to power are two important pieces which obviously

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Speaker 1: there's no question as to how you ended up then

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Speaker 1: going into a coaching but AJM expecting you to follow

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Speaker 1: this threat exactly. So please tell us why was that

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Speaker 1: you into law school? Well, I'm going to concede to

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Speaker 1: my two counterparts here. Uh, they could have the point.

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Speaker 1: I'm out. Those are great. I am a complete accident.

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Speaker 1: Law school student can't have to go back. My parents

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Speaker 1: were immigrants to this country. They were fled Fidel Castro

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Speaker 1: and Communist Cuba with the clothes on their back. That

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Speaker 1: was it. I had a brother and a sister born

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Speaker 1: in Cuba, and my mother was eight months pregnant with

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Speaker 1: my next sister. We were okay for the first couple

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Speaker 1: of years, and then there was this big earthquake in

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Speaker 1: California and we lost everything and we went from being

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Speaker 1: okay living a good life too. We were dirt port

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Speaker 1: and I mean dirt port, Evicted from homes, going to

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Speaker 1: kitchen soup kitchens for meals, going without eating, going without

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Speaker 1: heat in Boston in the wintertime. It was bad. It

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Speaker 1: really was. And I remember a childhood thinking that I

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Speaker 1: was going to amount to nothing. To be quite honest

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Speaker 1: with you, and my parents. My mother didn't speak English,

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Speaker 1: my father spoke some English. They were brown and my

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Speaker 1: father was brown skinned. My mother's white skin. Her family

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Speaker 1: is more from Spain than Cuba. So I went to

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Speaker 1: the Marine Corps when I turned eighteen years old because

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Speaker 1: that's the only way that I saw how to get

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Speaker 1: out of the cycle that I was in. My older

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Speaker 1: sister had gone to community college, didn't succeed. My next

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Speaker 1: sister went to Georgia on a music scholars She lasted

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Speaker 1: a year, she didn't succeed, And I went and joined

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Speaker 1: the Marine Corps. And the Marine Corps was a complete

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Speaker 1: lifeserver for me. I will I will always be indebted

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Speaker 1: to the Corps for giving me a lot of things

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Speaker 1: like discipline and uh and believing in myself that I

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Speaker 1: never really had growing up. So I became a police officer.

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Speaker 1: After I left the Marine Corps and I started going

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Speaker 1: to community college. It took me thirteen years to get

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Speaker 1: my A A degree, and then Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore.

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Speaker 1: It had a program for aspiring leaders in law. It

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Speaker 1: was to finish out your your bachelor's degree. So I

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Speaker 1: went to Hopkins and when I was finishing up at Hopkins.

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Speaker 1: A friend of mine by the name of lie Maattic.

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Speaker 1: She was the first sergeant with the state Police, maybe

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Speaker 1: she was a lieutenant by then. She said, what are

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Speaker 1: you gonna do after Hopkins? And I said, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: Maybe I'll go get a master's And she said, you

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Speaker 1: should go to law school. And I said, okay. And

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Speaker 1: that's how I ended up in law school. I never

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Speaker 1: dreamed about it. I never thought that was in my history.

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Speaker 1: There's no way that anyone that knew me when I

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Speaker 1: was a kid wouldever eve that I would want to

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Speaker 1: be or even aspire to be an attorney in anyway.

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Speaker 1: It was just good things happened to me, and there

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Speaker 1: were good people along the way who made good recommendations

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Speaker 1: to me, and I'm thankful to all of them. Thank

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Speaker 1: you all for sharing the really intensely personal things that

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Speaker 1: contributed towards your path to the law. That's one of

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Speaker 1: the things that we love the most about this podcast

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Speaker 1: is seeing so many examples of how there is no

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Speaker 1: one path to law school, and that for many people,

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Speaker 1: I think more than we realize, that path is not linear,

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Speaker 1: It is not straight from college. It is not necessarily

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Speaker 1: someone who knows Okay, well, I'm a really argumentative child,

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Speaker 1: and so I'm going to go be a litigator. It's

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Speaker 1: a discovery process and it's a process that you know

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Speaker 1: takes a lot of help in sometimes more than three years.

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Speaker 1: So I can see in working with you how trial

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Speaker 1: team coaching has fit into your career. But I would

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Speaker 1: love to hear from you, including how you know that

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Speaker 1: may relate to the types of jobs that you were

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Speaker 1: doing at the time or when you started trial team coaching.

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Speaker 1: How did you get there, Why did you decide to

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Speaker 1: start coaching trial teams and a j I will start

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Speaker 1: with you this time. That's a really great question. So

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Speaker 1: for me, I think it goes back to even when

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Speaker 1: I was a kid. I was never really good at sports.

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Speaker 1: I was a smart kid, but never really good at sports.

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Speaker 1: But I understood tactics really well. And even as a kid,

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Speaker 1: I started coaching. I remember I was I was thirteen

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Speaker 1: years old and I got a summer job teaching um

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Speaker 1: elementary school kids. Pe for a summer job. Right, poor

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Speaker 1: kids can get jobs and get paid for the summer.

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Speaker 1: I think I got paid five dollars a day to

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Speaker 1: go do this, and I started teaching kids how to

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Speaker 1: play softball. I couldn't hit a baseball. I could teach

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Speaker 1: anybody how to hit a baseball, though, even as as

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Speaker 1: as a twelve thirteen year old, I was able to

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Speaker 1: teach somebody else how to do it. I understood the

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Speaker 1: mechanics of it. The same was true when I went

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Speaker 1: to the Marine Corps. I remember I was a good marine,

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Speaker 1: but I wasn't a great marine. I certainly wasn't an

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Speaker 1: average marine. I was better than average marine. Believe it

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Speaker 1: or not, there are classes of marine. But I remember

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Speaker 1: one day and somebody had said to me, you know,

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Speaker 1: a college boy, come over here. I had never been

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Speaker 1: to college, but there was something in the way that

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Speaker 1: I could explain something to others that they would have

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Speaker 1: me come over and help people understand stuff. And then

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Speaker 1: that that just kept progressing all the way through my

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Speaker 1: law enforcement career, and then I got to law school.

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Speaker 1: I remember one day I got to law school and

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Speaker 1: gentleman by the name of Jerome D's I was still

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Speaker 1: a police officer. I was working shift work. Sometimes I'd

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Speaker 1: have to pay people to work part of my shift

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Speaker 1: a couple of hours, so I would go to the

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Speaker 1: edge of the county wait for somebody to call in

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Speaker 1: service for me, and then I would rush into law

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Speaker 1: school and right at six o'clock, parking was free on

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Speaker 1: the street, so I would go right in front of

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Speaker 1: the building at six o'clock, run of the door in

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Speaker 1: uniform with my gun on, and run the class so

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Speaker 1: I could be in class, you know, five minutes late,

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Speaker 1: but you know, to me, that was on time. And

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Speaker 1: I remember Jerome d stopped me at the door and

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Speaker 1: he said why are you here? And I said, I

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Speaker 1: I need to go to class. He goes, no, no,

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Speaker 1: why why are you here? And we played this cat

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Speaker 1: and mouse game of why I was here, and he

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Speaker 1: was offended that I was wearing a gun inside of

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Speaker 1: the law school building. He was offended by that. But

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to leave a gun in Baltimore City

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Speaker 1: in a police car. I'm just not going to do that, right,

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Speaker 1: So he and I got into a bit of an argument,

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Speaker 1: and then I got this notice a couple of days

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Speaker 1: later that I was to be in his office the

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Speaker 1: next day at four o'clock or something like that. And

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Speaker 1: I normally don't get to school until six, but it

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Speaker 1: was my day off. Well. Jerry Ds was the director

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Speaker 1: of the trial program at Maryland and he saw something

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Speaker 1: in me, and so I came to his office. We

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Speaker 1: had a discussion. We talked about the gun thing. He

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Speaker 1: got over it very quickly once he understood what my

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Speaker 1: situation was, and then he asked me if I would

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Speaker 1: come in on Saturday. There was a Supreme Court clerk

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Speaker 1: that was coming in to judge a team for a competition,

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Speaker 1: and he wanted to have a real police officer play

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Speaker 1: the character in one of these mock trial competitions. So

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Speaker 1: I said sure, and it was an all day affair

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Speaker 1: and I kept playing the cop different ways, good cop,

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Speaker 1: bad cop, mean cop, soft cop. I mean. He would

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Speaker 1: just say do it this way, do it this way,

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Speaker 1: do it this way. And it was the same case,

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Speaker 1: but a different kind of police officer to help train

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Speaker 1: those students, and I just thought, wow, that's really cool. Um,

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Speaker 1: So Jerry and I became friends. Again. I'm a little

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Speaker 1: older than the average law student. I think I was

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Speaker 1: in my thirties, and Jerry and I became friends, and

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Speaker 1: then I made the team. And then when I made

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Speaker 1: the team, he had me as the first student coach

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Speaker 1: of the team. So I started coaching right away out

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Speaker 1: of the box. I want my first competition out of

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Speaker 1: fantastic team, we want our first competition, the Daniels competition,

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Speaker 1: and then after that, I basically became a student coach,

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Speaker 1: except I think compete a couple more times. But after

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Speaker 1: I graduated, Jerry d said, hey, you need to come

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Speaker 1: on and just help me keep coaching. So it was Jerry.

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Speaker 1: Jerry saw something in me. He was a great mentor

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Speaker 1: of mine and he's the one that put the bug

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Speaker 1: in me to coach, and that's how it all started

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Speaker 1: for me. I can tell you that it's continued because

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Speaker 1: of people like Laura Rose's dad, Charlie Rose, And I'm

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Speaker 1: in this job now because of Charlie Rose. Well some

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Speaker 1: of it has to do with me, but it's Charlie

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Speaker 1: Rose why I give credit for me being here, because

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't have gotten this job without him. He was

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Speaker 1: looking out for me and he helped me secure this job.

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Speaker 1: So it's because of others that I ended up doing

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Speaker 1: this kind of work. Yeah, that's one of the other

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Speaker 1: big things that we talked about often on the podcast

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Speaker 1: is just the idea of mentorship and how important that

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Speaker 1: can be, and also sort of networking or connections to

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Speaker 1: people and maintaining sort of, you know, a connections to

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Speaker 1: other other individuals who might be able to help you

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Speaker 1: or put you on a path that maybe you didn't

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Speaker 1: even know about or know that you you wanted to pursue.

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Speaker 1: So I love to hear that. And that's a perfect

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Speaker 1: segue to Laura us And you just referenced her dad

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Speaker 1: and and his his helpfulness in terms of your career.

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Speaker 1: So Laura, will you give us a sense of, you know,

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Speaker 1: how you made your way to being a trial team coach.

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Speaker 1: When I started law school, I was vehemently against doing

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Speaker 1: anything with criminal law, and vehemently against doing anything to

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Speaker 1: do with litigation, and vehemently against anything to do with

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Speaker 1: military law because it would put me square in my

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Speaker 1: father's shadow. I had this idea, this wonderful dream, that

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Speaker 1: I was going to become a contract lawyer and I

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Speaker 1: was going to help negotiate the right to the oil

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Speaker 1: wells that exists in the North Sea off the northern

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Speaker 1: coast of Scotland. And then I took contracts and I

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Speaker 1: wanted to just absolutely scoop my own eyeballs out with

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Speaker 1: the rusty soon. And when we were talking about what

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Speaker 1: offer acceptance in consideration and all of this stuff was

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Speaker 1: and I realized that was not my calling. And unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: as I have to say often in life, my dad

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Speaker 1: ended up being right right and it was litigation. And

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Speaker 1: I will tell you right here, right now, that trial

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Speaker 1: saved my life and made me a better person. And

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Speaker 1: it made be a better person because I didn't get

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Speaker 1: it when I wanted it. The first time I tried

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Speaker 1: out for steps in his trial team as a second

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Speaker 1: year law student and there was a very strict eight

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Speaker 1: minute time limit that was said. I went five words

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Speaker 1: over the eight minute time limit. Dad is the director

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Speaker 1: of the program at the time, and they kept me

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Speaker 1: instantaneously like there's no there's no discussion, there's no anything,

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Speaker 1: there's no stacy that or anything. You're just done right.

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Speaker 1: And I'm mortified because I have let down the family

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Speaker 1: name and all this other stuff. But my coach, Professor Topics,

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Speaker 1: lives at me and said, you can do shadow teams

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Speaker 1: and you can figure this out and you can learn.

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Speaker 1: And I made a decision that I was going to

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Speaker 1: fwallow my pride and recognize that I had more things

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Speaker 1: to learn than I realized and that I needed to

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Speaker 1: grow from that. And it made me a better human

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Speaker 1: being because I got to grow from that. And I

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Speaker 1: did six competitions that year as a shadow team member,

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Speaker 1: where I was just I was taking every opportunity that

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Speaker 1: I could get to get into the courtroom and do

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Speaker 1: this because it made law school come back to life

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Speaker 1: for me. It saved the idea of getting my j D.

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Speaker 1: It ate it worthwhile because it showed me an active

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Speaker 1: way in which I could make it difference right, and

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Speaker 1: that that got strengthened and heightened when I took We

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Speaker 1: had a class club constitutional on the Civil Rights movement

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Speaker 1: that Professor Bickle Toot and we would go and we

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Speaker 1: would study the decisions of the war in court for

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Speaker 1: six weeks. And after we studied the decisions of the

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Speaker 1: War in Court, we went on the Freedom read and

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Speaker 1: we got to go with an actual freedom writer. We

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Speaker 1: met up in Nashville and we went to different locations,

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Speaker 1: and I can remember standing in Nashville and him talking

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Speaker 1: about how he and his friends had to go outside

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Speaker 1: into the alleyways to use the restroom because they weren't

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Speaker 1: allowed to use the restroom in the buildings there were

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Speaker 1: no colored restrooms, and thinking about how I had struggled

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Speaker 1: when we were reading the court's decisions because it was

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Speaker 1: so common sense to me, right, like, how how could

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Speaker 1: we be arguing about this needing to be an equivalency? Right?

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Speaker 1: Why was this every debate? To stand in that place

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Speaker 1: with that man and recognize what he had gone through

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Speaker 1: and see what people who had gone through law school

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Speaker 1: were able to effectuate change wise in life, it changed

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Speaker 1: everything for me. So after I graduated, I had a

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Speaker 1: absess in shadow team for a year with my friend

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Speaker 1: Eric the Storm. She and I ran that thing together

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Speaker 1: because the wouldn't let us coach right away. And then

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Speaker 1: after we had a year out, we started coaching, and

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Speaker 1: I was working as a white collar crime prosecutor, had

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Speaker 1: been my dream job. I was working through the Florida

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Speaker 1: Office of the Attorney General of the white collar crime

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Speaker 1: prosecutor doing Ponzi scheme security fraud cases that we weren't

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Speaker 1: quite big enough for the FEDS don't want to deal with,

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Speaker 1: but we're too complicated or touched on multi jurisdiction. So

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Speaker 1: I was I was doing my dream work, and I

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Speaker 1: was coaching on the weekends, and I realized I was

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Speaker 1: more excited to get up on the weekend and go

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Speaker 1: work with law students and make them understand what hearsay

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Speaker 1: was and how they could take this job on. Then

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Speaker 1: I was to go in and do my work in

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Speaker 1: the office, and I got so pivot point where career

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Speaker 1: wise something was going to change. I had an offer

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Speaker 1: to go join private practice. Uh my former trial team coach,

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Speaker 1: I call him the big brother that I never wanted,

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Speaker 1: Lee Perlman in his private practice. He he had a

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Speaker 1: slot open for me. Or I could go to u

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Speaker 1: m k C and work for Ray Foreman as a

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Speaker 1: grad student and start a path towards making this the

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Speaker 1: academic pursuit that I wanted it to be. And so

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Speaker 1: I took the risk, and seven months after I started

435
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:03,959
Speaker 1: the job in U m k C, I was at

436
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:07,399
Speaker 1: USC with a tenure track law professor position, running a

437
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,919
Speaker 1: trial team and building something up here on the legacy

438
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:11,560
Speaker 1: of the people's game before me. And I got to

439
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,040
Speaker 1: do that because of all the wonderful people that I'm

440
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:16,480
Speaker 1: connected to. A J talked about paying it forward. A

441
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 1: J is on my list of people who are why

442
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,400
Speaker 1: I am where I am today, right. Liz Lippy from

443
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,000
Speaker 1: Temple is on my list. Joel. That's scene from Temple

444
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,400
Speaker 1: there for they go acrostination, and I have been so

445
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,040
Speaker 1: blessed to work with so many of these legal minds

446
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,960
Speaker 1: that it is my great privilege to now start another

447
00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,879
Speaker 1: at another institution, in another place, making sure that these

448
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,359
Speaker 1: lessons get carried forwards to areas of the country that

449
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,520
Speaker 1: needs them desperately. Not because there's anything wrong, but because

450
00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:42,560
Speaker 1: everybody should have the same kind of access that I

451
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:44,359
Speaker 1: got to have. And so that's that's why I do

452
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:45,960
Speaker 1: what I do, and that's why I pushed Trout in

453
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:47,920
Speaker 1: the way that I do, because it's a single grade

454
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,159
Speaker 1: as simulated experiential learning experience that any law student can

455
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:55,000
Speaker 1: participate in. Parna Laura, you mentioned that for you this

456
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,480
Speaker 1: job at being a trial team coach and a professor

457
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:02,199
Speaker 1: is a calling, and I'm just curious. I mean, I

458
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,199
Speaker 1: can hear the passion in your voice, so you know,

459
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,679
Speaker 1: it's no secret that that you love doing what you do.

460
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,679
Speaker 1: But I'm curious how you sort of knew that it

461
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:11,720
Speaker 1: was a calling. Was it just you know, this feeling

462
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:13,600
Speaker 1: that on the weekends you actually wanted to get up

463
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,439
Speaker 1: and and do that, and that's sort of like what

464
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:17,680
Speaker 1: pushed you in that direction, or you know, is there

465
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,040
Speaker 1: something else where you kind of knew, like, Okay, this

466
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,200
Speaker 1: is my place. It's because it allows me to combine

467
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,879
Speaker 1: equally the whimsical and practical parts of my soul. Is

468
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:28,919
Speaker 1: what I like to tell people. My mom is an

469
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,359
Speaker 1: interior designer by trade. My dad is you know, a

470
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,679
Speaker 1: former trial or former military man now lobbying. He's very rational,

471
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 1: very black and white, very things are in order. And

472
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:38,560
Speaker 1: then you've got mom who calls me up and said,

473
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 1: what creative thing are you doing to make sure that

474
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 1: you don't lose your mind? Trial team is that for

475
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 1: me because it's the place where I get to be

476
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 1: fully myself. I get to be all of the strategic

477
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:50,600
Speaker 1: moments and looking at it from a rational perspective indication

478
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 1: analysis mode, but also have my theatricality and my big

479
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 1: moment of of embracing those pieces of my personality. And

480
00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,920
Speaker 1: you get to use that to help people in their

481
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,680
Speaker 1: twenties who are going through some of the most confusing

482
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:04,479
Speaker 1: times in their life when the whole world was screaming

483
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:05,879
Speaker 1: at them that they should be an adult and know

484
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 1: how to do all of this well. They're definitely trying

485
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,439
Speaker 1: to figure out how they balance all of the daily

486
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,560
Speaker 1: tasks of repetition that come with adulthood. You get to

487
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,919
Speaker 1: stand there and help them across that bridge and also

488
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 1: placing them a seed to make sure that they carry

489
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 1: on the things that you're teaching them. That that was

490
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 1: why it spoke to me, because the ripple effect that

491
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 1: you can have in this job is unlike anything else.

492
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:30,679
Speaker 1: I love that, all right, So, Adria Europe, how did

493
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 1: you make your way to becoming a trial to youth coach? Well?

494
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 1: I just love the sort of cosmic way that this

495
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 1: is flowing because I'm super excited to follow Laura. So

496
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,200
Speaker 1: much of what she said resonated with me. So first

497
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 1: I'll start by saying, this is all very crazy sort

498
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 1: of you know, ended up in this this role because

499
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:56,879
Speaker 1: I am the daughter of a teacher, UM, and I've

500
00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 1: come from a family of educators, and I swore that

501
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 1: I would not do anything remotely close to teaching, like

502
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 1: never ever, ever, ever, ever ever, UM. So it's always

503
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 1: funny to me to sort of see the ways in

504
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 1: which life unfolds. UM. But you know what really resonated

505
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 1: with me about what Laura shared was sort of this

506
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,919
Speaker 1: leak from sort of the thing that you thought you

507
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,479
Speaker 1: were going to do into this new thing that feels

508
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 1: like a calling, and I think that certainly was my experience.

509
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 1: So before getting into coaching, I did quite a bit

510
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 1: of pre law advising and working with students who wanted

511
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,920
Speaker 1: to go to law school. And I think back now,

512
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 1: I can connect the dots to the ways in which

513
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 1: I was doing that as a law student. So I

514
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 1: find people or people would find me, particularly students from

515
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 1: underrepresented backgrounds, because it was just very painfully clear to

516
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,120
Speaker 1: me the lack of diversity in the profession, first as

517
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 1: a law student and then entering the profession. In all

518
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,679
Speaker 1: of the spaces and places that I worked, for the

519
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 1: most part, I was either the only attorney of color,

520
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 1: or if there was one, maybe one more. And so

521
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,400
Speaker 1: I didn't have any lawyers in my family. I really

522
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 1: think it's the grace of God. I didn't have any

523
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 1: exposure to the law at all. So that was always

524
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 1: something that was very much a personal passion for me.

525
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 1: Anybody who needed help, I would do that. Fast forward

526
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,639
Speaker 1: to about two thousand and twelve, living in New Orleans,

527
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,679
Speaker 1: practicing law, practicing with the firm, and started, you know,

528
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 1: sort of it as an extension of that, just helping

529
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,199
Speaker 1: at at Dillard University in New Orleans with students who

530
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 1: had that interest and kind of like Laura, over time,

531
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 1: you know, so I would go on campus periodically to volunteer,

532
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: and that was the thing that got me excited. I

533
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 1: really enjoyed the other lawyers that I was practicing with

534
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 1: no complaints, you know, from that perspective, but there was

535
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 1: something that was pulling in this other direction, this this

536
00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,119
Speaker 1: joy and just there's the impact of being able to

537
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 1: connect with young people college students and in my situation,

538
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 1: very young eighteen nineteen twenty year olds who were just

539
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 1: beginning life and figuring things out. And so I took

540
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 1: the leap similar to Laura, I left um, you know,

541
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 1: the full time practice of law and started working with

542
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 1: undergraduate students. People thought I was insane. I had a

543
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: number of people in colleagues, in fact, after I started

544
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 1: a couple of years, guys like, so are you done

545
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 1: with that? Like that thing you're doing like and sort

546
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:32,199
Speaker 1: of you know, like with those kids, like when are

547
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 1: you gonna come back and get a real job. This

548
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: is not but I digress. But so get to Dillard.

549
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 1: Before my arrival, there had already been a creation of

550
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:47,359
Speaker 1: a mock trial room. It was named after and dedicated

551
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 1: for Justice Revious Ortique, who was a Dillard, a lum

552
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 1: and the first African American on Louisiana Supreme Court. And

553
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 1: the room was created and it's set no activity lights off,

554
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 1: I mean, beautiful space. So I get there. That's the

555
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 1: first thing on my jim. I'm like, we gotta get

556
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,639
Speaker 1: something going in this mock trial room, because what a

557
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 1: what a gift to have a room like this on

558
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 1: an undergraduate campus for students to learn and to develop.

559
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 1: And so we we got it started. I had the

560
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 1: good fortune, really blessing to have a conversation with Judge

561
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 1: kern Rees, who was at that time the chief judge

562
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 1: of the Civil District Court here in the city, and

563
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 1: he's like, hey, Adrian, hear you over there at Dillard.

564
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 1: You know, if you ever think about trying to do

565
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 1: a trial team, just let me know. I'm happy to help.

566
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: And it was like the stars aligned and Judge Reyes

567
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 1: and I got the ball rolling and the rest is history,

568
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 1: so to speak. It has been a tremendous joy, not

569
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 1: one that I was necessarily looking for, but the path

570
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 1: I think once a friend of mine says leap and

571
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 1: the net will appear. Um, it seems sort of like

572
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,200
Speaker 1: that's such a like non lawyer thing to say, we

573
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: go to school to sort of manage risk. Why would

574
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 1: you leap in there's no net, Like that's foolish, That's

575
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 1: but I think I feel like, essentially that's what I did.

576
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: I leaked, and then all of these other things start

577
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 1: to move and happen. And you know, before I even

578
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 1: thought about leaping, there was a mock trial room already

579
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: there waiting, just waiting for a team. I love that,

580
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 1: so as you guys, I think I'll know. I was

581
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 1: on the trial team in law school, and I definitely

582
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 1: leapt without a nut beneath me in in taking the

583
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 1: risk to to try out for the trial team. You know,

584
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: it wasn't the most like outgoing or the most argumentative

585
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: or any of that, And it was one of the

586
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 1: best experiences I had, or not one of It was

587
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: the best experience that I had in law school. And

588
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 1: I owe so much to my trial team coach. But

589
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 1: I'm curious from your perspective, you know, I think for me,

590
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: it gave me a ton of confidence and the kind

591
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 1: of you know, pushed me out of the nest in

592
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 1: a way that I needed to be pushed. But from

593
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: your perspective, what is your favorite part about teaching or

594
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: coaching law students? And see you all smiling, so I hope,

595
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: I hope this is a welcome question. So Laura, can

596
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: we pop back to you over this one the moment

597
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,239
Speaker 1: that they stopped thinking of themselves as a student and

598
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: start thinking of themselves as what I call a pseudo

599
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: colleague because they never quite get brave enough at this point,

600
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 1: I'm old enough now that they feel distant enough that

601
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: they're like, I'm not quite there, but I'm right here, coach,

602
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: and I'm speaking up behind you. And when that when

603
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 1: that moment dropped, where the student teacher relationship changes from

604
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 1: just being where I have been teaching you this whole time,

605
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: now you feel like you can play the game. And

606
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 1: the best way that I have to explain that is

607
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: a story. So y'all have to forgive me. I'll try

608
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: to keep it short. I'm in Professor Topics Trial Advocacy

609
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: class and this is the semester that I haven't made

610
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: a team, and I am intimate on on campus for

611
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 1: always having my sunglasses on. And this particular day, I

612
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: had a pair of bright pink Parkley Cati sunglasses on

613
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: my head, and it's my turn to get up and

614
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: go give a cross examination. Now, before Lee Topic became

615
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,479
Speaker 1: the amazing attorney that he was, he was a Southern

616
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 1: Baptist school football coach who took no nonsense for anybody.

617
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 1: And I knew that I could not go in front

618
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 1: of the bar with my sparkly pink sunglasses on my

619
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 1: head or I was not here. So I reached over

620
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 1: and I set them behind the bar without looking at them,

621
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 1: go through do to cross examination, and turned to get

622
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 1: my critique, and the Topic is wearing my fern glasses

623
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: and he proceeds to critique me and do the rest

624
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: of the class while wearing bright pink, sparkly rhyin stone

625
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: covered cat I sunglasses. And I thought, okay, if that's

626
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 1: how we're gonna play, that's how we're gonna play. And

627
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: I went to party City that night and I went

628
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 1: to the kid's birthday party section and the kids sunglasses

629
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 1: that they have that are hard eye shaped, right. I

630
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: bought enough of those for everybody in my class, and

631
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: I got there early the next day and I handed

632
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: him out to everybody, and I said, look when he

633
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: gets in here, he turned When he turns around after

634
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: he's given critique, somebody, we're all gonna put him on

635
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: at once. So he turned around. He's gonna see all

636
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: of this. And I don't know how I got my

637
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 1: classmates to agree to my nonsense, but they did. And

638
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: when PC turned around to give critique, he was greeted

639
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 1: by a see of twelve last students, all with hard

640
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: eye sunglasses on. He lost it and for the rest

641
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: his class, I mean, he literally dismissed class afterwards because

642
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 1: he was he was so happy about the game that

643
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 1: had gone forward. That happens with law students on trial

644
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: team because they learned to trust themselves. This process teaches

645
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 1: them that they can do the analysis, they can make

646
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 1: the argument. They can understand how to leave the rules

647
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: of evidence with the particular fact, with the particular portion

648
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 1: of procedure, and where we are in the trial to

649
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: make a persuasive point. They understand and begin to see

650
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: themselves and develop their professional identity through this in a

651
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 1: way that law school doesn't leave a lot of room for.

652
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: In other places, it's real hard to feel confident that

653
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: you understand a case while your professor is cold calling

654
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: you and drilling you on a detail of a case

655
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: that was want to succeed that you had to read

656
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: while you were doing all the other various things that

657
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: law students do, right, But the discrete exercise of here

658
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: is a fact pattern with for witnesses, with a story

659
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: that must be told and a charge that must be

660
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 1: proven or disproven, makes them shed the rest of the

661
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 1: worry for a minute and they get to grow and

662
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: become those versions of themselves. And when that starts to happen,

663
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 1: I get real excited because it means that we have

664
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 1: hit a satisfactory level of base knowledge for you to

665
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: feel confident. Now we can start growing you into real

666
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 1: excellence because you're willing to play the game and you've

667
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: seen that you're a part of it too. That's my

668
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: favorite part. A j. You are in the unique position

669
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: of having coached pre law students, so college students. What

670
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 1: was your favorite part of doing that and working with

671
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: that particular group of students. Yeah, so, you know, similar

672
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 1: to Laura, I think that whole transition of starting our

673
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 1: fearful and moving past that fear, I think it's always

674
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: really powerful to see to move past that place of

675
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: insecurity because they all start off very scared, they all

676
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: start off shaking like a leaf, and then they're able

677
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 1: to move through. That is always a tremendous sense of

678
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: joy because it happens for every single individual student. I

679
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 1: think that's especially true in working with undergraduate students, and

680
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 1: so my hope is that the experience that they have

681
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 1: as undergraduate students helps them to be able to be

682
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: ready for a j and Laura when they get to

683
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 1: law school. I think that that's the that's the joy

684
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: in it, and I think that's especially true for students.

685
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: So I have not said this specifically, but Dillard University

686
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 1: is a historically black university. All of the teams that

687
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 1: I've coached at Dillard have been all black teams, and

688
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: I think there is something. I guess two things I'll

689
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: mention with that. One is the students who are part

690
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: of our team often have a lot of passion around

691
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: issues of justice, things that they see in the community,

692
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 1: very similar to the experiences that I shared, But through

693
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: mock trial, they now have the language to be able

694
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: to articulate their feelings in a way at empowers them

695
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: and and prepares them for law school. But what I

696
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: think it also does I think sometimes when you're you're

697
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 1: at a smaller school and perhaps you think those teams

698
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 1: over there have more resources, or they must be smarter,

699
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: or they must be better, or they must have some

700
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 1: sort of thing you're experiencing, you know, sort of this

701
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 1: concentrated imposter syndrome, not just as an individual, but a

702
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 1: collective team of people to then be able to go

703
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 1: and compete and win, and it just removes the scales off,

704
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:38,399
Speaker 1: like it just instantly, like when they stand and they're

705
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 1: able to argue and they win that round and they

706
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 1: figure out, oh, they're from where, and to have the

707
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 1: confidence of knowing. So you take that that piece and

708
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: then you carry that into law school. I was texting

709
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 1: with some of our students from the team who are

710
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 1: now one else who are all in exams, just like

711
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: Lauren aj students. So I was texting them, I'm like,

712
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,399
Speaker 1: remember what happened last year, Remember what happened with the

713
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: championship team, and all of the amazing things that you did.

714
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 1: You did the impossible. So you've already done the impossible.

715
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 1: So there's nothing that's going to happen over the course

716
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,800
Speaker 1: of this exam period that you have not already confronted,

717
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 1: and so that to me is that's like, that's that's

718
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,359
Speaker 1: the money, that's that's the goal. That's the very, very

719
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 1: best thing about it, because it puts them on a

720
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 1: different playing field, so to speak, once they get to

721
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 1: law school, I think, and of course as they enter

722
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,240
Speaker 1: the profession, because they'll learn the substance of the material.

723
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 1: But the confidence that comes from this is just this

724
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 1: priceless j what about you, Yeah, you know. For me

725
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,359
Speaker 1: it's it's I'm a little older now than doing us

726
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 1: for a little while. I think the thing that keeps

727
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: motivating me is that that aha moment when you realize

728
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:48,879
Speaker 1: that you have changed the student, when you change your

729
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 1: life from being a student and becoming a lawyer. And

730
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 1: you can see it, you can hear it, you can

731
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 1: feel it, and just like Allison said, it was the

732
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,359
Speaker 1: best experience of her law school career, there's no one

733
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 1: that goes through this process and at the end of

734
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 1: the day says that's the dumbest thing I ever did.

735
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 1: There is a single soul that's going to say that.

736
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: Every single person that goes through these programs, whether it's

737
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: Adria's or Laura's or mine or anybody else's it's like

738
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 1: it everyone's gonna say the same exact thing. It's the

739
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 1: best experience I've ever went through. And the reason why

740
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 1: is that we started to teach you how to act

741
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 1: like a lawyer, not just think like a lawyer. This

742
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 1: past week, Laura and I were in Atlanta for the

743
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,879
Speaker 1: Daniels competition. I had won that competition twenty years ago

744
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,760
Speaker 1: as a law student, so I was I really wanted

745
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 1: to win this year. So we got there a couple

746
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 1: of days early, and we had all two l team

747
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 1: never competed before, and they had the basics all right,

748
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 1: They got the basics right there. We all teach I

749
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 1: don't care where you go. Everyone teaches you how to

750
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 1: do an opening essentially the same way everyone teaches you

751
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: how to direct, how to cross. It isn't magic, it's

752
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 1: it's it's to teach them how to do it, and

753
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 1: then you try to get the other parts out. And

754
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: we had this one student who was just having really

755
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: a difficult time delivering an opening statement. The words were right,

756
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 1: but the way it was coming out it had no emotion.

757
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 1: It was a mock trial, right. So I spent three

758
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 1: hours with her working on her opening statement to getting

759
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 1: her to believe that she actually represented the family of

760
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: a dead kid and what it meant to them, And

761
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 1: I ended up playing a song. Uh just came to me.

762
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 1: These things just come to us, right. I'm sitting there

763
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,720
Speaker 1: and I'm trying to get her to understand about storytelling

764
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 1: in an opening and trying to get her to understand

765
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 1: that you just can't spew the information. You have to

766
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 1: deliver the information. You have to make people understand and

767
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: be in the shoes of the person that was affected.

768
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: So I played Joe Jackson's Slow Song. I don't know

769
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:52,320
Speaker 1: if you have that song. I don't know if you

770
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 1: have licensing agreements. You might want to go out on

771
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 1: this on this podcast on Joe jackson Slow Song. It's

772
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 1: about it's all the the seven minute song, right. I

773
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 1: don't know if you have either of you heard it,

774
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 1: If any any of you heard the song Joe Jackson's,

775
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 1: it's a phenomenal song right where he tells the story

776
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 1: and he reaches a crescendo and we're done with that

777
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 1: part of the story, so now I need to tell

778
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 1: you another part of the story. And then that builds

779
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 1: to a crescendo and then he starts the story again

780
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 1: building to this just phenomenal crescendo and then one key

781
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,919
Speaker 1: on the piano and when we played that for her

782
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 1: and I gave her opening in the song. So while

783
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,240
Speaker 1: the song is playing in the background, I am giving

784
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,400
Speaker 1: her opening and it's so it's being delivered in a

785
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: different way, and I start seeing the tears begin to

786
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: well in her eyes. So then I called the rest

787
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,399
Speaker 1: of the team back into the room and I said,

788
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:50,799
Speaker 1: go give your opening. And it was truly amazing and

789
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 1: that her entire body and her entire team felt the

790
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 1: opening and it was just an incredible experience, not just

791
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 1: for her but for all of us because she had

792
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 1: an AHA moment and throughout the tournament, her best part

793
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,800
Speaker 1: of the entire tournament was in fact her opening, because

794
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 1: she stopped being a student and she started being an advocate.

795
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 1: And to me, that's what drives me. That's what gets

796
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 1: me to get up every day and want to come

797
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 1: in and do this. And Adrian, I hear you when

798
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 1: you say, you know people are wondering if you're ever

799
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: going to grow up and do something for a living.

800
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: I get that all the time, I really do. But

801
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 1: it's what drives me, and I really enjoy it. I

802
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 1: just also want to highlight the amount of dedication and

803
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:38,399
Speaker 1: time also that it takes to be a trial team coach.

804
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 1: I mean just hearing the stories that you all are telling.

805
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:43,720
Speaker 1: You know, it's not just like Okay, we're gonna spend

806
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: an hour and go through your opening and like we're

807
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:47,879
Speaker 1: good to go. I mean, that will never never get

808
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 1: you to where you need to be. Um, Laura, I

809
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 1: remember when we were chatting, um, you know, a few

810
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 1: weeks ago, and you said that you know, there's no

811
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 1: necessarily secret sauce, but it's really who goes for it

812
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 1: and who's willing to sort of spend their whole weekend

813
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 1: and putting in the time and putting in the effort.

814
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 1: And that's both on the students part and on your part.

815
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: I mean just hearing you know, the cats sunglasses story

816
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: and the song story and all of those like really creative, um,

817
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 1: you know, techniques that you're helping your law students to

818
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 1: be able to become better advocates through like really creative means.

819
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,320
Speaker 1: And so it's it's a lot of work and dedication.

820
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 1: So when when you say you know, oh my gosh,

821
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 1: you're gonna grow up and have a real job someday.

822
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 1: I just want to highlight for folks that it is

823
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 1: as real as it gets. So real. I was just

824
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 1: gonna say, it doesn't feel like work to us because

825
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 1: it's it's it's just joy. It is it is watching

826
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 1: being a military kid. For me, what it comes down

827
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,320
Speaker 1: to is, I'm I'm passing down the keys to protecting

828
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 1: American democracy, to ensuring that people understand you have the

829
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 1: right to to bring people in under the six and

830
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 1: seventh Amendment, speak truth to power, and have your voice heard,

831
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: regardless of where you fall on any of the variety

832
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: of spectrums in this country, and you have that right.

833
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,399
Speaker 1: You have that ability to go out and protect these

834
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 1: people with it right that meed suels me the way

835
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 1: that with with what AJ talking about about watching them

836
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 1: become that lawyer is I'm making sure that something's going

837
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 1: to exist after me, that the things that I've been

838
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 1: taught and that I've been gifted are there. So the

839
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 1: twenty four hours of practice that happened on a weekend

840
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 1: where you're looking at a kid and you want to

841
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: jump up and down and the scream that if you

842
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 1: don't stop doing the baby advocate box step where you

843
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 1: shuffle back and forth in this little awkward box, and

844
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 1: I'm gonna grab your feet and hold them and I'm

845
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 1: going you are a tree and you are planted right.

846
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 1: That doesn't feel like work, and all of that frustration

847
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 1: stays away when you have those moments like a j

848
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,360
Speaker 1: is talking about, where all of a sudden you start

849
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 1: to see the lawyer that was there all along because

850
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 1: they stopped thinking of it as and now I have

851
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 1: put on my suit, and now I am standing up

852
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: and making my opening statement. And now I'm doing this,

853
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 1: they get up and go, I have a point. Group.

854
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 1: You're gonna hear me because I have a voice, and

855
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 1: my voice should be heard just as much as anybody

856
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 1: else's in this room. It's it's the best job ever.

857
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:53,720
Speaker 1: That's why it doesn't feel like a job. It sounds

858
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 1: like so many of the anecdotes that you all have

859
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 1: shared highlight the relationships that you have with your students,

860
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 1: and I loved hearing Adria that you know you're still

861
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,439
Speaker 1: texting with your students and they are now in law

862
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:10,399
Speaker 1: school and just continuing to maintain those relationships with them.

863
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 1: You all have called out so many different professors and

864
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 1: trial team coaches who were important to you during your careers,

865
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 1: and so I know you have so much wisdom to

866
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 1: share with our listeners, and we want to get as

867
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 1: much of it as possible, and so I wonder if

868
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: you could share what advice you might have for aspiring

869
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:33,319
Speaker 1: law students. And it can be really about anything, it

870
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be related to trial team. But if

871
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,320
Speaker 1: we think about our listeners out there who are thinking,

872
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 1: you know, about going to law school or maybe are

873
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:45,799
Speaker 1: in the one L experience right now, what would you

874
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 1: want them to know? And I'll ask you first, Adria,

875
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,759
Speaker 1: if that's okay. I'm not picking on you, I swear no,

876
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:54,919
Speaker 1: I know I don't feel picked on. I'm just really

877
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 1: I'm sort of sitting here thinking about it because I

878
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: have so many thoughts. I guess to sort of piggyback

879
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 1: off of sort of your last point about the relationships,

880
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 1: I think that's one of the wonderful things that students

881
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 1: who do mock trial to do trial advocacy they get

882
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 1: from their peers and from their coaches. And so I

883
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 1: think you know, whether you do mock trial or trial

884
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 1: at or not, to be intentional about putting yourself in

885
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 1: proximity to people who can expose you to the profession

886
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:27,839
Speaker 1: and to to be able to sort of pour into

887
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:31,879
Speaker 1: your life and to be also open to receiving it.

888
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I've often talked to our team about having

889
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:38,399
Speaker 1: a teachable spirit. Um, you know, some people, somebody can

890
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 1: be pouring, but if if if the cap is closed,

891
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,400
Speaker 1: then none of that wisdom or information is going to

892
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:46,919
Speaker 1: be able to flow through. So I think just being

893
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:51,880
Speaker 1: open to receiving that kind of guidance and investing in relationships,

894
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,720
Speaker 1: which I think sometimes it's hard to do these days.

895
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,280
Speaker 1: I don't know. Blame some of that on the pandemic perhaps,

896
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 1: but just being open to that. I'm would also say

897
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 1: not being discouraged or frustrated if the first thing is

898
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 1: not the thing. I think certainly I felt that way

899
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: as a law student because I had all of these,

900
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 1: you know, grand notions of what the law was going

901
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 1: to be, and I got to my first semest of

902
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 1: law school and I was like, well, what the heck

903
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 1: is this like, this is this is not what I

904
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,840
Speaker 1: signed up for. Give me my money back, not what

905
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:29,959
Speaker 1: I signed up for. But then by the next year

906
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 1: I was able to find classes that I really enjoyed,

907
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:36,400
Speaker 1: and I'm like Okay, I'm getting a little bit closer.

908
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 1: The same is true with you know, some of those

909
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 1: first jobs right after law school and maybe thinking like

910
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, is this it? And then you just

911
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 1: continue to move closer and closer. I think what A

912
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 1: J and Laura talked about, that place where it doesn't

913
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 1: feel like work or you're you're you're finding um, sort

914
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:58,239
Speaker 1: of that synergy between the passions that you have and

915
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 1: the work that you do each day. I think the

916
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 1: closer and closer that you can get to that um,

917
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 1: you can find joy and peace and meaning in life,

918
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:11,800
Speaker 1: but know that it doesn't necessarily all come at once

919
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 1: in like Okay, I've gone to law school. Now all

920
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:16,439
Speaker 1: of the things are going to be right with the world.

921
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:18,840
Speaker 1: Or now I've passed the bar and I got this

922
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 1: first job, like now this is it. No, it's a

923
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,239
Speaker 1: it's a process. And I think maybe, Helly, it was

924
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,359
Speaker 1: you that said it earlier. It's not linear. It's just

925
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 1: it's not linear. So um, if you had asked me

926
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 1: last I would have had my points enumerated. So that

927
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 1: was somewhat circular answer, but hopefully I was helpful. E J.

928
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:41,720
Speaker 1: What about you? Yeah, I'm gonna be a broken record

929
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,800
Speaker 1: on on this one. It's something that I tell I

930
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 1: go to every single orientation. I'm kind of the guy

931
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 1: after lunch that goes in trying to wake keep people away,

932
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 1: keep them going. The two o'clock guy, that's me. One

933
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 1: of the things that I talked about is that we

934
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,359
Speaker 1: see more students come I'm to school now thinking that

935
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,400
Speaker 1: school is a part of their day instead of school

936
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 1: being their job. And I think you have three years

937
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 1: to get it right. That's it. You have three years

938
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 1: to learn, you have three years to understand. You have

939
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: three years to engage, fail, start again, learn again. You know.

940
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 1: It's just it's an opportunity that no other job has

941
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: where you have a three year period of just get

942
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:29,720
Speaker 1: in there and learn it fully. Engage yourself. Get involved

943
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 1: with clubs, get involved with I don't care if it's moot,

944
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 1: court or journal. Do do everything if you possibly can,

945
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: but immerse yourself in law school. Go to school at

946
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 1: eight am, go home at eight p m. Make it

947
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 1: your every day for three years, because the more you

948
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:52,319
Speaker 1: expose yourself to the more you're going to realize there's

949
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:55,279
Speaker 1: a lot more down on the horizon for you. A

950
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: lot of people come to school thinking that they want

951
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,239
Speaker 1: to be X, and then they get here and they

952
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 1: realize no want to do that. But then they spent

953
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 1: so much time away from school that they don't know

954
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 1: what else to do, and so they almost get stuck

955
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 1: right away. You've never done anything in environmental law. Go

956
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 1: take an environmental law class, see if maybe there's a

957
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 1: passion there. And we never know where we end up.

958
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 1: I mean, we truly never know where. There's no way,

959
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 1: in any way, anyway that anyone would have said, a

960
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 1: j You're gonna end up teaching at St. Mary's University

961
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:30,720
Speaker 1: in San Antonio, Texas. Born in California, raised in Florida,

962
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:33,919
Speaker 1: lived in Maryland. You've never been in the middle part

963
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 1: of the United States. You've never been in Texas. There's

964
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 1: no way you're gonna end up down there in San Antonio. Yeah, here,

965
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 1: I am. Relationships matter, and some of my closest friends

966
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:48,240
Speaker 1: still today are people that I met in law school.

967
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:51,279
Speaker 1: They're they're all becoming I mean, I had one that

968
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 1: I can't say his name because he's been nominated for

969
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 1: a federal judge ship and he's being he's being um,

970
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 1: he's going through the background for that. So we have

971
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 1: people well that you're just they're gonna be doing these incredible,

972
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,840
Speaker 1: fantastic things. One of my students is a congressman. Now,

973
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 1: you just don't know where your paths are going to cross.

974
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 1: And the more you can get involved with when you're

975
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 1: in school, the more that you could stick it out

976
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:17,799
Speaker 1: and just do that, the more connections you can make,

977
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 1: and the more opportunities are going to be available for

978
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 1: you down the road. Definitely more than anything else. Never

979
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:27,239
Speaker 1: burn a bridge. Never ever burn a bridge, because less

980
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:30,839
Speaker 1: than one percent of our I think it's point zero

981
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:35,320
Speaker 1: one of our society, our lawyers. It's very very small club.

982
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 1: And if you burn a bridge, everyone's going to know

983
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:41,239
Speaker 1: about it. So get involved, stay involved, and we are

984
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:43,399
Speaker 1: the people that can make a difference. So go out

985
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 1: and make a difference. That's all the things that I

986
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 1: think are important for people that want to go to

987
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:49,399
Speaker 1: law school. If you can't, if you don't have to work,

988
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 1: don't work, stay in law school. Make it a job,

989
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 1: all right, Laura, lest but not least, any advice you'd

990
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 1: like to say, you will spend a lifetime building your

991
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:02,799
Speaker 1: professional computation, and every word that you do, every case

992
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 1: that you take, every document that you file, every appearance

993
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 1: that you make, you will spend your lifetime building your

994
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:14,160
Speaker 1: professional reputation. And you start building that professional reputation the

995
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 1: moment you sign on the dotted line to sit for

996
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 1: a class at a law school, and you need to

997
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 1: embrace that and embrace the reality shift that that that is,

998
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 1: professionals don't put everything that exists in their entire world

999
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 1: on whatever thing of social media that I don't understand

1000
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 1: because I am an elder millennial and too cranky to

1001
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 1: learn these things are currently obsessed with. Right, we don't

1002
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:36,320
Speaker 1: need to have our whole lives on TikTok or Instagram

1003
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:39,280
Speaker 1: or Snapchat, And in fact, we monitor what it output

1004
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 1: there and understand that our digital imprint is a product

1005
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 1: and a part of our brand as much as anything else.

1006
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: We understand that we we are a self regulating profession

1007
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 1: because we abide by a code of ethics. So don't

1008
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 1: burn a bridge, but don't be afraid to take a

1009
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:55,719
Speaker 1: stand when you see the wrong thing happening, and be

1010
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 1: brave enough to know that you're going to have to

1011
00:49:57,719 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 1: do that. One of the things that I tell my

1012
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: students all the time, tim is I am teaching you

1013
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 1: to disagree with somebody who was wearing a big, scary

1014
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 1: black robe and holds a lot of power, particularly in

1015
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 1: our jurisdiction. Right, the judges that are here, they've been

1016
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 1: on the bench for a hot minute, and we are

1017
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 1: a small bar. So yeah, if you burn a bridge,

1018
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 1: it can go down poorly. But if that judge is

1019
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:19,400
Speaker 1: making a decision that you know is wrong, you have

1020
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 1: an obligation as the attorney to stand up against injustice

1021
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 1: and stand up against unfairness, and do the thing that

1022
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 1: you know is the right thing to do. Stay in

1023
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 1: touch with your morals, keep time to yourself. That has

1024
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 1: nothing to do with law school. Right. I agree with

1025
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:37,919
Speaker 1: are that you should take it seriously, but you must

1026
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:41,719
Speaker 1: inject into your life time that it's selfishly guarded and

1027
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 1: just yours. I had a professor and law school professor,

1028
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 1: and Eddie used to say, the law is a jealous

1029
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 1: mistress and she will take every ounce of your time

1030
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:50,400
Speaker 1: that you do not ration away from her. And I

1031
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 1: teach my students that you have to balance your mental

1032
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 1: health because burnout is really real in this profession. It's

1033
00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 1: a real easy thing to push for, it's a real

1034
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:00,360
Speaker 1: easy thing to say. I can take another case. I

1035
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:02,239
Speaker 1: can take another thing, I can do one more thing.

1036
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 1: But you have to learn what that balances, and you

1037
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:06,840
Speaker 1: have to make the right decision, and you have to

1038
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:10,240
Speaker 1: stay in touch with the reason that you walked into

1039
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:12,319
Speaker 1: the building in the first place. When I when I

1040
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:14,319
Speaker 1: talk to orientate and I always say, there's a reason

1041
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:16,360
Speaker 1: each one of you came in here. Maybe one of

1042
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 1: you was treated unfairly by law enforcement, Maybe one of

1043
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:22,760
Speaker 1: you had a family member that experienced the horrific medical

1044
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 1: malpractice issue. There's some there's some reason why you came

1045
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 1: here right. Maybe it's because you're trying to figure out

1046
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 1: what to do while the economy does whatever the economy

1047
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 1: is doing. There's a reason. Get in touch with that

1048
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 1: and and get connected to who you are. I'm a

1049
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:38,360
Speaker 1: big believer in JOSEPHS. Campbell's theory of following your bliss.

1050
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 1: When you follow the things that make your heart thing

1051
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:42,320
Speaker 1: and make you know that you're in the right place

1052
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 1: and doing the right thing. Greatness flows from that. Opportunity

1053
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 1: flows from that. You get to do the things that

1054
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 1: are the most impactful from that. So be connected to

1055
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 1: you and don't let them take that from you. I

1056
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:55,520
Speaker 1: I am a fierce defender of the fact that in

1057
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 1: my office there are Harry Potter Lego mini figurines, and

1058
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:01,800
Speaker 1: they will be there for ever because I enjoy those things.

1059
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 1: I keep the parts of my personality that are still Laura,

1060
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 1: even though I'm Professor Rose now and I have a

1061
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 1: whole lot of other responsibilities. You must learn to embrace

1062
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:14,799
Speaker 1: all pieces of you, not just sheltered, compartmentalized genre. Thank

1063
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 1: you all so much for sharing that advice. That was

1064
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:19,359
Speaker 1: so great, and honestly, I think some of the best

1065
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 1: advice we have heard from people on the podcast, So

1066
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 1: thank you. I'm sorry. Can I just add one other

1067
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:29,080
Speaker 1: small thing to that point, of course? Okay, so very

1068
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:33,280
Speaker 1: very practical, Um, do your best to minimize your debt.

1069
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:36,919
Speaker 1: I just wanted to add that point, um, because when

1070
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 1: you're debt is lower, you have the freedom to be

1071
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 1: able to pursue the things that make your hearts saying,

1072
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 1: and to follow your morals, and to speak truth to power,

1073
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 1: and to do all of those high minded things that

1074
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 1: we talked about. When you have borrowed it's seen amount

1075
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 1: of money, it's a lot harder to do that. One

1076
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 1: of the reasons that I think I was able to

1077
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 1: sort of do the lead and the net will appear.

1078
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,279
Speaker 1: Is because I had a scholarship. I had a full

1079
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:07,720
Speaker 1: scholarship to go to law school. I had the opportunity

1080
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:12,520
Speaker 1: to pursue pursue whatever prestige means schools that people said,

1081
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 1: oh my god, you're not gonna go to fill in

1082
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 1: the blank. Well I didn't get any money to that.

1083
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 1: And my father, who had no college degree but a

1084
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:21,959
Speaker 1: lot of common sense, said, these people are gonna pay

1085
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 1: you for the degree, and these people are going to

1086
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 1: charge you for the same degree. Make it makes sense.

1087
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 1: You didn't think make it makes sense because nobody said

1088
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 1: that then. But you know what I mean. It's just like,

1089
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:34,319
Speaker 1: I'm not suggesting that that's the path for everyone, but

1090
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 1: what I am saying is, and I think A j

1091
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 1: made the point, you can start law school thinking you're

1092
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 1: gonna do one thing, and as time goes on, you'll

1093
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 1: be pulled in other directions and that debt will be

1094
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:50,400
Speaker 1: an albatross around your neck, strangling that freedom to be

1095
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 1: able to do the things that you want to pursue.

1096
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:54,880
Speaker 1: So I just wanted to mention that just as a

1097
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:57,920
Speaker 1: practical point. Yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned that. Because

1098
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:00,400
Speaker 1: we haven't talked as much about that on the podcast,

1099
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:02,839
Speaker 1: and it is just a stark reality that I think

1100
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:06,479
Speaker 1: needs to be said and addressed, and as you said,

1101
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:09,319
Speaker 1: can kind of dictate your career path afterwards, you know,

1102
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:12,560
Speaker 1: if you don't have, you know, the financial freedom to

1103
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:15,319
Speaker 1: be able to pursue the career path that maybe you

1104
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:17,840
Speaker 1: want to. And I'll just stay on the flip side.

1105
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:19,480
Speaker 1: You know, if you are in a position where you

1106
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 1: know you need to pay off loans and have to

1107
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:23,240
Speaker 1: take a particular job, that doesn't mean that you'll always

1108
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 1: be in that position. And so you can still you know,

1109
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:29,920
Speaker 1: switch careers and and maneuver into a place where you

1110
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 1: might you know, find your voice and that might be

1111
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:34,799
Speaker 1: more of your calling, even if you have to sort

1112
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:36,879
Speaker 1: of take a job that maybe isn't your first choice

1113
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:39,759
Speaker 1: right out of law school too. So with that, we

1114
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 1: will move to our last question, and we like to

1115
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:45,319
Speaker 1: end on this question with all of our guests. So

1116
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:48,279
Speaker 1: the question is what a success mean to you? And

1117
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you, in the spirit of child Team,

1118
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:53,719
Speaker 1: to try to keep this. You're closing arguments to two

1119
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 1: minutes or less if you will. As we kind of

1120
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 1: wrap up here, so a j I will kick it

1121
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 1: over to you. Yeah. I mean for me, it's it's

1122
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:03,880
Speaker 1: it's pretty simple. I've had a couple of jobs in

1123
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:07,720
Speaker 1: my life where I hated going to work. I couldn't

1124
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:09,759
Speaker 1: stand it. And I had a job where I would

1125
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 1: the one before I was here. While it was a

1126
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:13,799
Speaker 1: great job and I worked for great people, I would

1127
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:15,719
Speaker 1: sit in the parking lot sometimes for up to two

1128
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:18,400
Speaker 1: hours just to get in the building, just to muster

1129
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 1: the strength, the mental strength to get into the building.

1130
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 1: And while I was doing a great job, everybody loved me,

1131
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:28,560
Speaker 1: the job wasn't loving me. It was killing me. It

1132
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 1: really was. So for me, success is very simple. I've

1133
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 1: had those jobs where I made a ton of money.

1134
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 1: I've had those jobs where I've made very little money.

1135
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:38,400
Speaker 1: I'm in a job now where I'm making okay money.

1136
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:41,200
Speaker 1: It's not about the money. What is success to me

1137
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:43,879
Speaker 1: is that I look forward to tomorrow, that I can't

1138
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:46,400
Speaker 1: wait to come in, I can't wait to do what

1139
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:49,239
Speaker 1: I do to see the students. I can't wait to

1140
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 1: look at my phone and see what text I got

1141
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:54,440
Speaker 1: from a current student or a former student while we

1142
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 1: were sitting here. I have three students who texted me saying, Hey,

1143
00:55:57,480 --> 00:55:59,120
Speaker 1: do you have a minute, I'd like to come by

1144
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:01,760
Speaker 1: and just talk to you before finals. That means everything

1145
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 1: to me. That is complete happiness and joy. To me,

1146
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:08,120
Speaker 1: I have grown kids, I have a very understanding wife,

1147
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:11,000
Speaker 1: maybe to understanding, to be quite honest with you. But

1148
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:14,360
Speaker 1: success to me is is not winning in the courtroom,

1149
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:17,920
Speaker 1: although I really really love winning. Success to me is

1150
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:20,320
Speaker 1: being happy at what I'm doing on a day and

1151
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 1: day ot basis, and I guess the day that I

1152
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:24,279
Speaker 1: stopped being happy is is the day I stopped doing

1153
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:27,359
Speaker 1: what I'm doing, Laura, what about you? Success for me

1154
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:29,560
Speaker 1: is knowing at the end of the day that I've

1155
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 1: done my best with the opportunity that represent into me,

1156
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:34,839
Speaker 1: with the materials and resources that I had at that day.

1157
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 1: And in a long term sense, it is did I

1158
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:41,400
Speaker 1: leave people with a more positive impression than a negative impression?

1159
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 1: And did I positively impact their life more than I

1160
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:47,319
Speaker 1: negatively impacted it? Did I did I make sure that

1161
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 1: I saw each person every single day. We just recently

1162
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:53,600
Speaker 1: lost a titan up here at USC, professor Tom Horton,

1163
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:56,839
Speaker 1: who was the trials and coach before I got the job,

1164
00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:59,600
Speaker 1: and one of the things that has come out as

1165
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:03,160
Speaker 1: we been grieving him as a community is how much

1166
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:06,760
Speaker 1: he saw every single student that went through his office

1167
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:09,000
Speaker 1: and went through his classes and went through our law school.

1168
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:12,400
Speaker 1: And that, to me is success to to be after

1169
00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:16,920
Speaker 1: a career of sacrifice and leadership and intense brilliant to

1170
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:20,560
Speaker 1: have people stand and recognize what you gaze and to

1171
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:24,200
Speaker 1: see the positive ripple effects and contributions from that, building

1172
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 1: that legacy, that success, and you get to engage in

1173
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:31,000
Speaker 1: that in multiple different levels in life, that in multiple

1174
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:33,360
Speaker 1: different stages, and the best part is that it can

1175
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:35,840
Speaker 1: grow to fit where you are and what you are

1176
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:39,480
Speaker 1: capable of at that time, so it's never an unachievable

1177
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:41,760
Speaker 1: thing and it's always something that you can staff to

1178
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:44,640
Speaker 1: get to the next moment. Well, Adrian, we started by

1179
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:47,360
Speaker 1: picking on you, so we will end with you as well.

1180
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 1: What does success mean to you? So my word, my

1181
00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:54,760
Speaker 1: one word answer to that question would be freedom, at

1182
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 1: least individually for myself, the freedom to be able to choose.

1183
00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 1: In fact, we used to have t shirts at Dillard

1184
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:04,080
Speaker 1: for the pre law program that said freedom onto because

1185
00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:07,680
Speaker 1: that's really what it's all about. But beyond that, I

1186
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 1: guess the collective is you know, there's a I think

1187
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:14,440
Speaker 1: an old gospel song that says something like, you know,

1188
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:16,920
Speaker 1: only what we do for others will last. And I

1189
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 1: think both Laura and a J hit on that point,

1190
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:24,000
Speaker 1: and I think ultimately that's that's that's what we'll be

1191
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:27,360
Speaker 1: here when we are all long and gone. And I'm

1192
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 1: hopeful and I think just based upon the podcast episode

1193
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 1: and everything that's been shared here today, I think each

1194
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:37,920
Speaker 1: one of us has been able to so seed in

1195
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:40,760
Speaker 1: a way that will impact the lives of others and

1196
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:44,360
Speaker 1: that will last absolutely. And just a reminder to our

1197
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:48,280
Speaker 1: listeners that class Action with Kenny Fang is available wherever

1198
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 1: you listen to podcasts, and you can hear more from Adria,

1199
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:55,240
Speaker 1: Laura and a J and their trial teams and the

1200
00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 1: wonderful story of their trial team experiences through this podcast.

1201
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:03,040
Speaker 1: And you can also find more information about class Action

1202
00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:06,440
Speaker 1: at class action pod dot com. Class Action is a

1203
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:09,200
Speaker 1: production of Sound Argument and I Heart Media and we

1204
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:12,480
Speaker 1: are so so thankful that you all had the time

1205
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:15,000
Speaker 1: to chat with us today. This has been a really

1206
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:18,120
Speaker 1: wonderful way to end our season and we thank you

1207
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:20,439
Speaker 1: for your time. Thank you so much for being here.

1208
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:23,160
Speaker 1: Thank you thanks for having us, Thank you, thank you

1209
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:25,959
Speaker 1: for having us. Don't go away. There's more to come

1210
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:36,720
Speaker 1: in the Due Diligence portion of our show. Hello, it

1211
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:41,160
Speaker 1: is time for Due Diligence on our episode with a

1212
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:45,280
Speaker 1: team from Class Action and Um also our last episode

1213
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:50,000
Speaker 1: of season three. So Allison, as the trial team veteran

1214
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 1: and superstar that you are, I am going to throw

1215
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:57,000
Speaker 1: it over to you to ask you your thoughts and

1216
00:59:57,120 --> 01:00:01,080
Speaker 1: what's stuck with you from this episode with Adria, a

1217
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:04,680
Speaker 1: J and the Lura. Well, because I'm a trial team

1218
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:09,200
Speaker 1: nerd UM, I just wanted to share sort of how

1219
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:11,440
Speaker 1: I came to actually try out for a trial team

1220
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:14,479
Speaker 1: at Northwestern because I think a lot of people who

1221
01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:16,800
Speaker 1: you know, go and try out for the team might

1222
01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:19,680
Speaker 1: know going in that they want to do trial team

1223
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:22,640
Speaker 1: or have done some sort of mock trial in you know,

1224
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:26,000
Speaker 1: undergrad all uh what Adria you know, was coaching her

1225
01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:28,640
Speaker 1: students to do. But I had never done any of that.

1226
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:31,360
Speaker 1: I wasn't a debater, I wasn't like a mock trial

1227
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 1: person in college. And I really decided that I wanted

1228
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:37,680
Speaker 1: to do it because I wanted to challenge myself kind

1229
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:40,840
Speaker 1: of put myself outside of my comfort zone. So when

1230
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:44,520
Speaker 1: I tried out for the team, I definitely, you know,

1231
01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 1: I didn't really expect to make it. I just wanted

1232
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:49,720
Speaker 1: to get out there and try to be a better

1233
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:52,400
Speaker 1: public speaker. So I knew I wanted to be a litigator,

1234
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:54,640
Speaker 1: or at least I thought very strongly that I wanted

1235
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:57,640
Speaker 1: to be a litigator, and I understood that that requires

1236
01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:00,560
Speaker 1: you to be good at public speaking, at least in

1237
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:03,680
Speaker 1: some capacity, and I knew that that was not my

1238
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:06,440
Speaker 1: strong suit. And so I went out for the team,

1239
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:09,680
Speaker 1: and you know, quite frankly, I totally thought that I

1240
01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:15,120
Speaker 1: kind of flopped the tryouts, and I ended up kind

1241
01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 1: of making it through. And kudos to Rick Levin, who

1242
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:19,760
Speaker 1: was my child team coach at Northwestern and all the

1243
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 1: other people on the team. But he, I think took

1244
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:24,240
Speaker 1: a pretty big chance on me because I don't think

1245
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:27,000
Speaker 1: I was a good public speaker when I started out,

1246
01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:29,920
Speaker 1: And you know, to this day, he says like, yeah,

1247
01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:34,000
Speaker 1: you were a little rough, rough, and when I decided

1248
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:36,400
Speaker 1: to kind of take a chance on you, and he

1249
01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 1: kindly did that, and I learned so much, and like

1250
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:41,240
Speaker 1: I said during the episode, it really was the best

1251
01:01:41,240 --> 01:01:44,200
Speaker 1: experience I had in law school, because of the teammates

1252
01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:45,840
Speaker 1: that I had, because of the coach that that I had,

1253
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:48,840
Speaker 1: how much I learned and how much confidence I gained,

1254
01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:50,640
Speaker 1: and so I just don't think that I would be,

1255
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 1: you know, in the space that I am today, including

1256
01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:54,960
Speaker 1: being able to stand up and teach and do what

1257
01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:57,960
Speaker 1: I do today without Trial Team. So it was incredibly

1258
01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:01,160
Speaker 1: impactful for me. And when we were talking with A

1259
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:04,280
Speaker 1: J and Laura and Adria, you know, I could just

1260
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:08,440
Speaker 1: send sort of their passion in teaching students to be

1261
01:02:08,840 --> 01:02:11,919
Speaker 1: great public speakers, to be great advocates, to as Laura said,

1262
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:14,480
Speaker 1: speak truth to power. And I feel like Rick Levin

1263
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:17,080
Speaker 1: did that for me. And so I just identified so

1264
01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:19,560
Speaker 1: much with the journeys that they're taking their students on,

1265
01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:22,840
Speaker 1: just so impressed with them and kind of the journey

1266
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:26,439
Speaker 1: that they shared with us. I was the sole non

1267
01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:31,960
Speaker 1: trial team person on our conversation with them, but what

1268
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:35,160
Speaker 1: I they had so many nuggets of wisdom and we

1269
01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:38,560
Speaker 1: can't make our due diligence as long as the actual episode,

1270
01:02:38,640 --> 01:02:42,440
Speaker 1: but one thing that I believe it was Adria said

1271
01:02:42,680 --> 01:02:45,640
Speaker 1: was don't be afraid if the first thing that you

1272
01:02:45,720 --> 01:02:48,560
Speaker 1: try is not the thing. And I think they were

1273
01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:52,720
Speaker 1: all examples of that, because they had interesting careers prior

1274
01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:56,160
Speaker 1: to going into teaching or going into advising or child

1275
01:02:56,160 --> 01:03:00,280
Speaker 1: team coaching, and followed their feelings as far as you know,

1276
01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:03,680
Speaker 1: realizing something was missing, realizing that they wanted to have

1277
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:06,920
Speaker 1: some interaction with students, and and then ending up coaching

1278
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:09,840
Speaker 1: these amazing trial teams. So they had a ton of

1279
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:12,720
Speaker 1: great advice no matter the stage of life that you're

1280
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:14,840
Speaker 1: in or no matter whether you want to be a

1281
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:17,080
Speaker 1: litigator or not. I think a lot of it was applicable.

1282
01:03:17,240 --> 01:03:19,480
Speaker 1: But I also wanted to kind of make a programming

1283
01:03:19,520 --> 01:03:22,880
Speaker 1: note or just an overall observation since this was our

1284
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:27,880
Speaker 1: last regular episode of season three, which is very hard

1285
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:31,000
Speaker 1: to believe that we're already wrapping up our third season

1286
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:35,880
Speaker 1: at Personal Jurisdiction. So when we started this podcast, our

1287
01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:39,320
Speaker 1: goal was to make sure that we were focusing on

1288
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:42,960
Speaker 1: interviewing people within the first ten or so years of

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01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:46,400
Speaker 1: their legal practice or their career or whatever that may be,

1290
01:03:47,160 --> 01:03:51,400
Speaker 1: in order to really stay close to their experience and

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01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:53,880
Speaker 1: be able to connect what they're doing now with their

1292
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:57,360
Speaker 1: law school experience. And in season three we've deviated from

1293
01:03:57,360 --> 01:04:00,240
Speaker 1: that a little bit, but that will always me and

1294
01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:03,000
Speaker 1: our goal and the reason why we had a few

1295
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:07,800
Speaker 1: special episodes this season is that we are always looking

1296
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:11,480
Speaker 1: for new and interesting things to share with our listeners

1297
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:14,720
Speaker 1: and also looking for different ways that we can share

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01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:19,240
Speaker 1: helpful information and helpful experiences. Um. So, in particular with

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01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:21,920
Speaker 1: this last episode with the I always want to call

1300
01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:25,640
Speaker 1: them the cast of of Class Action, but I mean,

1301
01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:28,160
Speaker 1: they're all real people who did a real thing. Um

1302
01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:31,840
Speaker 1: with the coaches from Class Action. Was that Allison, like

1303
01:04:31,920 --> 01:04:36,080
Speaker 1: you just told us your trial team experience was formative

1304
01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:39,040
Speaker 1: for you. It really is the thing that you remember

1305
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:42,440
Speaker 1: most from law school, apart from meeting me, you know,

1306
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:48,040
Speaker 1: in constitutional criminal procedure um. And so we wanted to

1307
01:04:48,040 --> 01:04:50,880
Speaker 1: share that with our listeners too, and also deliver some

1308
01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:55,520
Speaker 1: really interesting background on each of the career paths that Adria,

1309
01:04:55,800 --> 01:04:58,360
Speaker 1: Laura and a J. Pad. So I just want to

1310
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:00,680
Speaker 1: make a note of that since this is our last

1311
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:03,240
Speaker 1: episode and last episode of the season, and time to

1312
01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:07,000
Speaker 1: be a little bit reflective about that. So we wish

1313
01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:11,360
Speaker 1: you all a wonderful end of year holiday season. In

1314
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:15,560
Speaker 1: New Year, we are taking a break for the holiday,

1315
01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:19,920
Speaker 1: but we will be back in three with season four,

1316
01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:23,160
Speaker 1: and we hope that you follow us on Twitter to

1317
01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:26,640
Speaker 1: the extent it still exists, and also follow us on

1318
01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:30,760
Speaker 1: linked In for any updates about season four. We're excited

1319
01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:33,320
Speaker 1: to share what we have in store for you, and

1320
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:37,760
Speaker 1: as always, if you have thoughts, suggestions, things that you love,

1321
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:41,160
Speaker 1: things that you maybe didn't love, we would really enjoy

1322
01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:45,080
Speaker 1: hearing from you. So many of our guests this season

1323
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:48,600
Speaker 1: came from either listeners who asked us to be on

1324
01:05:48,640 --> 01:05:52,360
Speaker 1: the podcast, or um outreach from people we did not know,

1325
01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:57,200
Speaker 1: or suggestions from previous guests and friends, so we're always

1326
01:05:57,280 --> 01:06:00,240
Speaker 1: happy to receive your questions and comments. They thank you

1327
01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:04,120
Speaker 1: so much for listening and for supporting Personal Jurisdiction. We

1328
01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:07,960
Speaker 1: are really thankful for your support and we will see

1329
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:11,720
Speaker 1: you next time. See you next time. Personal Jurisdiction is

1330
01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:15,160
Speaker 1: powered and distributed by simple cast. You don't have to

1331
01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:17,600
Speaker 1: wait until next week to hear more. You can find

1332
01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:20,560
Speaker 1: us online at personal j x pod dot com and

1333
01:06:20,600 --> 01:06:24,080
Speaker 1: on Twitter at personal j x pod. Don't forget to

1334
01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:29,440
Speaker 1: subscribe to Personal Jurisdiction on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts,

1335
01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:31,840
Speaker 1: or wherever you like to listen, so that you can

1336
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:35,280
Speaker 1: be updated on the latest and greatest from Personal jurisdiction.

1337
01:06:35,960 --> 01:06:37,760
Speaker 1: If you like what you hear, make sure to rate

1338
01:06:37,840 --> 01:06:40,440
Speaker 1: us five stars and leave a positive review so that

1339
01:06:40,520 --> 01:06:42,240
Speaker 1: other listeners can find our show too.