WEBVTT - The Hearth, Part 2 0:00:01.000 --> 0:00:06.160 Here here is certitude you swore below this lightning blasted tree, 0:00:06.559 --> 0:00:11.000 where once it strikes, it strikes no more fool. And 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:14.400 you sang, here is a three, and in this three 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:18.520 love lies unshaken as now, so must it always be. 0:00:19.239 --> 0:00:22.640 You sang, with harsh notes, to awaken that ancient toad 0:00:22.760 --> 0:00:27.920 who sits andmurred within your hearthstone light forsaken. He knows 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:31.920 that limits long endured must open out in vanity, that 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:39.000 gates by bolts of gold secured must open out in vanity. 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:45.320 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, the production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:53.519 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:54.320 is Robert. 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:57.200 Lamb, and I am Joe McCormick, and we are back 0:00:57.240 --> 0:01:00.400 with part two in our series on the fire Place 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:04.120 and the Hearth. That reading at the opening was an 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:06.920 excerpt from not the whole poem, but an exerpt from 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:11.440 a poem called Essay on Knowledge by the poet Robert Graves, 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:14.520 the author of I Claudius, or as some might call 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:20.040 it Iclavdivs. And so this poem we were a little confused, 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:22.480 because Rob, you dug this up, and I'd never read 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:25.880 it before, but I really liked it. But we were 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:29.520 confused because we were finding multiple versions of the same poem. 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:32.200 And it turns out that's not an error. There actually 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:34.600 are multiple versions of this poem. So it's kind of 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:36.360 like with some of these Walt Whitman poems, where like, 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:39.199 you know, he published multiple drafts of the same work. 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:42.760 That's going on here. Graves published an early version of 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:44.959 the poem called Essay on Knowledge, and then a later 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:46.039 one called Vanity. 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:49.240 Yeah, but it's I mean, it's really getting into some 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:51.560 stuff to blow your mind territory, because not only do 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:56.360 we have a hearthstone with an ancient toad beneath it, 0:01:56.440 --> 0:01:58.560 we also have a lightning blasted tree. 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:03.400 Yeah, a unintended resonance there. But as I said, I'd 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:05.920 never read this before, I really love it now. It 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:11.359 seems to describe the poet's internal struggle between reason and passion. 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:15.119 So he's characterizing half of his soul as a kind 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:20.120 of unflappable scholar aspiring to aloof rationality, that part of 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:23.640 himself attached to the day side kingdom of Christendom and 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:26.920 the Enlightenment, and then the other part of him hidden 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:32.760 underneath this Thonian pagan dragon of weird emotion emotion, lust, 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:36.320 and magic, I think are the themes of the suppressed part. 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:38.680 In fact, we didn't quote this part of the poem, 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:41.520 but in an earlier stanza he refers to it as 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:44.760 a dragon, and the balance of the poem seems to 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:49.120 suggest that as much as the rationality of civilization tries 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:52.960 to rule over the self, the dragon of lust and 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:57.560 emotion and passion will inevitably at some point be unleashed 0:02:57.560 --> 0:02:59.080 from his tomb and reign again. 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:02.639 Yeah, basically, he's saying, I really want to be a 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:07.720 good Christian scholar, dude, but somebody buried this pagan psychomania 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:11.360 frog underneath my hearth and there's nothing I can do 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:11.800 about it. 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:15.840 But anyway, the focal lines for us are interesting because 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:18.639 when I first read the poem, you know, I thought 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:23.040 that it was supposed to be the speaker's suppressed emotion 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:27.320 and carnal desire that were embodied as that ancient toad 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:30.840 who sits and mirrored within your hearthstone light forsaken. In 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:33.560 other words, I took the toad as another form of 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:37.880 the pagan dragon. However, I was reading an essay about 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:43.160 Graves called Philosophical Speculations mock Beggar Hall Welchman's Hose and 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:48.000 Poetic Unreason by a critic named Patrick Quinn. Not otherwise 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:51.119 familiar with this critic, but Quinn writes about this part 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:53.920 of the poem that quote the cries awaken only an 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:58.360 ancient toad symbol of the philosophic awareness of the Apollonian 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:03.400 and Dionysian duality in man's nature, referring to that division 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:07.000 between the sort of Apollonian reason and Dionysian passion that 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:12.080 is discussed in Plato's dialogue The Feedrus. But anyway, so 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:15.560 you get that line after that in the poem, where 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:19.040 Grave says he knows the limits long endured must open 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:21.520 out in vanity, and the he in that line seems 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:24.400 to be the toad. So if Quinn is correct, the 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:27.719 toad is not the dragon of passion and emotion, not 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:30.960 that Dionysy in half of the struggle, but instead the 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:35.080 sage who observes and describes the struggle to us. The 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:39.600 toad immurred beneath the hearth is Socrates. But anyway, this 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:42.880 line kind of reminds me of that thing. So like 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:45.679 the toad is buried beneath the hearthstone and it reminds 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:47.280 me of the thing we talked about in the previous 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:51.080 episode of the Void buried Amulets, where you know, by 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:54.240 symbolic law of contagion that now means Socrates is a 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:55.520 witch bottle full of urine. 0:04:57.279 --> 0:04:59.320 Yeah, and later on in the episode we'll get back 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:02.240 to something buried under the hearthstone and there will be. 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:06.120 Toads Now to recap a bit about the previous episode. 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:08.240 If you haven't heard it, I would recommend going back 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:10.400 and checking that out first. But in part one of 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:15.400 the series, we talked about what interior fireplaces mean to 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:20.680 us culturally by looking at the characteristics of hearthfire simulations 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:24.400 such as the assorted fireplace for your home style media 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:28.360 offerings that have become very popular as ambient streaming video 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:31.240 in recent years, including I think we talked about some 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:33.599 kind of burn barrel for your home linked to some 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:38.880 dystopian movie and also your witcher fireplace beloved in your house, Rob. 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:40.840 Yeah, and I don't know if I mentioned this one, 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:42.640 but there's a squid game one. Now. Did I mention 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:44.240 that in the last episode. 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:46.000 You mentioned just finding out about it? 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:47.840 I think, yeah, yeah, I haven't watched it yet, but 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:50.000 I'm excited. This is the most exciting thing I know 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:53.520 about on Netflix. Is this squid game fireplace? Yeah, I 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:54.640 may fire it up tonight. 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:57.920 Nice. But also in the last episode, we talked briefly 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:02.039 about research into the pre history of humans and our 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:06.360 close hominin relatives, how our relationship too and then control 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:10.159 of fire probably developed over the last couple of million years, 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:14.360 and how fire fundamentally changed so much about human life, 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:19.760 from nutrition to technology, to our relationship with the climate 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:23.240 and with wildlife. After this, we talked about how a 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:27.440 modern domestic fireplace is usually constructed and how it works, or, 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:30.640 depending on your emphasis, how it doesn't work given its 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:35.280 massive inefficiency as a heat source for the home. Estimates vary, 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:38.400 but something like eighty or ninety percent of the heat 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:40.960 put out by a standard wood fire is lost just 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:44.080 straight up the chimney and goes right out the flu 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:47.840 and depending on the design, a wood fireplace can sometimes 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:51.800 even make a house colder overall, even though it heats 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:54.919 up one room, you know, makes one room nice and toasty, 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:57.200 but freezes out the rest of the house. We discussed 0:06:57.240 --> 0:07:00.640 the mechanics of that in Part one, and of course, 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:04.760 all of this material energy analysis is useful to know, 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:07.400 but it's not going to make hearthfire any less beautiful 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:09.240 or attractive or magical to us. 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:13.600 Yeah, as well as deeply nostalgic and comforting. Yeah, we're 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:17.880 connecting with something very primal when we view a fireplace. 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:21.040 Yeah. And on that note, finally, in the last episode, 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:23.840 we talked about the idea of the fireplace and its 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:29.040 connected ventilation system as a portal for magical entrances and 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:33.280 exits in many folk beliefs, as a sort of for 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:36.280 one thing, a sort of transporter platform to the gods, 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:39.520 but beyond that, as a weak spot in the home's 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:43.720 defense against spells and witchcraft. And this led to interesting 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:48.720 examples of apotropaic magic associated with the hearth So thinking 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:51.240 of the fireplace as a gap in the armor that 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:54.480 had to be protected, perhaps by witch traps or other 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:59.880 magically potent items, maybe shoes. Yeah. Now, in the last episode, 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:02.200 idea that I mentioned briefly and said I would come 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:07.440 back to today was about the idea of domestic hearth 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:12.160 fire and the nature of the light it provides. When 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:15.760 you think about it, firelight is different both in quantity 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:20.520 of light produced and in quality from daylight and that 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:24.400 fact should not be overlooked when understanding the role of 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:28.280 fire in culture, especially if it is the primary or 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:31.800 the only source of artificial light, but even in cases 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:34.800 where you're just sort of optionally choosing to have a 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:37.880 room lit by a fire. And this brings me to 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:41.319 an interesting paper I came across about a less material, 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:45.760 less economic, but probably no less important way that control 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:48.520 of fire may have altered human culture all over the 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:53.840 world in prehistory. So this paper was by a scholar 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:58.360 named Polly Weissner, who is an anthropology professor at the 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:02.280 University of Utah, and it is called Imbers of Society 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:07.679 Firelight Talk among the Jutuan ce Bushmen, published in Proceedings 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:12.280 of the National Academy of Sciences twenty fourteen. And so 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:16.760 the author here, Weisner, acknowledges that there has been a 0:09:16.760 --> 0:09:19.600 lot of research on how the human control of fire 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:23.480 may have affected lots of things about us, may have 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:27.080 affected our physical evolution and anatomy. This again is a 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:31.520 reference to the interesting but not completely proven cooking hypothesis, 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:34.160 which we talked about a bit in the last episode. 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:38.360 And there's no doubt that it has affected our technology 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:41.520 and the design of our social and living spaces. But 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:45.400 then Liisner writes, quote, However, little is known about what 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:51.480 transpired when firelight extended the day, creating effective time for 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:55.920 social activities that did not conflict with productive time for 0:09:56.000 --> 0:10:00.720 subsistence activities. And I thought this was so int So 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:05.400 this sort of acknowledges that while fire can extend the 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:08.040 amount of time in the day in which you can 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:12.600 stay awake and stay awake and conduct some activities, the 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:16.000 light of a campfire is not sufficient to illuminate the 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:21.839 majority of subsistence activities, like the main economic duties of survival, 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:26.120 such as gathering and processing food. So when there's firelight, 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:30.600 there is enough light that it gives you time to 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:33.319 be awake and to see each other and to interact, 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:37.200 but not really good enough light to do much useful work. 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:40.199 Yeah, and again this is something that we so easily 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:44.760 take for granted in are so easily illuminated world. I know, 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:50.200 just for my own part, my immediate neighbors usually don't 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:53.880 have their backyard floodlights on during the night, But if 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:55.480 they do come on in the night, or they're left 0:10:55.480 --> 0:10:58.280 on during the night by accident, I'll sometimes notice that, 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:00.360 you know, I think I could read a book here 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:03.240 in my bedroom at three in the morning, Like, it's 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:08.760 entirely possible based on the anthient illumination provided by their floodlights. 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:14.119 And you know that's just at that level of accidental 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:17.520 illumination was just not something you had for the majority 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:18.240 of human history. 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:21.240 Yeah, and that highlights. How of course, firelight is different 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:35.760 from daylight, but electrical light is different once again from firelight. Yeah, 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:39.760 So how does the availability of this different kind of 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:43.280 time in the day change a culture or in the 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:48.800 author's words, did firelight quote simply give more time or 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:53.520 did it create a qualitatively different time and space? So 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:58.319 Weisner offers several potential observations and ideas in the introductory section. 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:02.200 One is the sort of different climate or weather conditions 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:05.640 during the night time, which is during which activities can 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:08.600 be extended by firelight kind of leads to some different 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:13.680 social dynamics. For example, during hot seasons, air cools after sunset, 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:15.840 but if you can have firelight, you can still see 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:19.040 each other after it gets dark, and people can release 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:22.360 pent up energy, you know, maybe dancing or interacting socially 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:25.960 in various ways. Meanwhile, during cold seasons, of course, the 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:28.920 fire is useful for warmth, and people will tend to 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:31.400 huddle near the fire for warmth. It kind of has 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:34.840 this gathering effect like we talked about with fires even 0:12:34.880 --> 0:12:39.240 inside the home. She also says that fireside gatherings are sometimes, 0:12:39.280 --> 0:12:44.120 though not always, characterized by social mixing, so mixing of 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:48.360 the sexes, mixing of people of different age groups, who 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:51.319 might spin much of the economically productive part of the 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:55.120 day segregated. And then another thing she said, I thought 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:58.920 this was very interesting quote the moon and starlit skies 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:02.840 awaken imagine of the supernatural as well as a sense 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:08.719 of vulnerability too. Malevolent spirits, predators, and antagonists countered by 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:12.880 security in numbers. So the argument here is that nighttime 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:16.720 is a time of the imagination for possibilities, both good 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:19.680 and bad. It kind of expands that the possibilities that 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:22.400 you envision. You might think about the gods or of 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:26.840 powers beyond the normal, but you can also think about 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:29.680 dangers lying beyond the firelight in the dark. So the 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:32.960 light that keeps you up at night keeps you aware 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:37.520 and active during this imagination rich time of the day. 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:40.840 Another thing she says, I thought was very interesting quote 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:45.600 body language is dimmed by firelight and awareness of self 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:50.320 and others is reduced. Facial expressions flickering with the flames 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:55.439 are either softened or, in the cases of fear and anguish, accentuated. 0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:59.080 And I'm not sure I've ever considered this before, but 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:03.880 I think that that's absolutely right. Different light environments change 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:07.760 how we look and thus change what kinds of emotional 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:11.360 expression we are sensitive to, or that we're aware of 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:14.720 other people being sensitive to in us. And I think 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:17.800 this could be a reason that we associate like a 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:21.520 romantic evening with candle light as opposed to with like 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:23.960 really bright lights. I don't you know, there could be 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:27.000 multiple reasons for that, but I don't have proof of this, 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:30.160 but I think it's quite plausible that fire based light 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:34.960 decreases our ability to register body language and facial expressions 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:38.000 that would normally cause us social anxiety, both because of 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:41.080 our constant tracking of these signals in others and because 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:44.120 of our awareness and regulation of it in ourselves, our 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:48.320 awareness of being observed. In other words, firelight could be 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:51.880 a naturally socially disinhibiting environment. 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:55.120 Does that make sense, Yeah, it does, because there is 0:14:55.840 --> 0:15:00.000 a huge difference between you know, of course, stark daylight 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:04.240 anywhere anything from stark daylight all the way towards dusk 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:08.960 and absolute darkness. We're talking about a world in between 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:16.320 where the illumination is not harsh but is atmospheric and 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:21.640 can certainly have this sort of emotional vibe to it. Yeah, 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:25.760 this is interesting. It's almost like did sexy times exist? 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:31.720 Didn't romance exist before firelight? I mean it did, but 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:35.440 you know, in the way that we're thinking about it, 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:37.960 you know, candle at dinner and so forth, or any 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:41.520 romantic scene you've ever seen in a motion picture, you 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:43.760 know it probably takes place in some sort of a 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:44.920 lighting environment like this. 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:49.240 Well. Yeah, And obviously the romantic example is just one 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:53.680 type of scenario where we want to be socially disinhibited, 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:56.240 where we want like our social anxieties and our fear 0:15:56.320 --> 0:15:59.920 of being perceived to be reduced. I think that's all 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.840 of the case. More in just general social interactions where 0:16:02.840 --> 0:16:05.880 we want to be like, you know, bonding with people 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:09.080 and trying to build up good relationships and so forth. 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:09.640 Yeah. 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:12.280 Yeah. Now, on the other hand, here the author says 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:16.120 that overt expressions of fear and anguish could in some 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:19.840 cases be accentuated by firelight, and you can imagine that 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:23.320 being powerful as well for sort of capturing the capturing 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:25.560 of attention with storytelling a ritual. 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:28.360 Yeah, I can't help but think about the fact that 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:33.320 a central fire, be it in a fireplace or a campfire, 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:36.560 or even just a lantern that people are gathered around. 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:38.520 It becomes the focal point. It becomes the thing you 0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:42.320 look at. And on one hand, yeah, you're not looking 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:45.560 necessarily looking directly in people's faces while you're talking to them. 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:47.720 It's kind of getting into that whole zone where like 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:51.280 sometimes you know, a parent and their child can have 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:54.840 a more intense conversation whilst the parent is driving a car, 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:58.040 you know, because it's like eyes forward, we can kind 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:03.600 of have this slightly disconnected but deep personal conversation. And 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:05.760 then likewise, if everybody staring at the fire, it's kind 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:09.280 of like, yeah, attention is on the flames, but we 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:12.640 can still have this close conversation but without looking each 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:15.200 other dead in the eyes. And then the flames can 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:17.719 also kind of become the almost kind of like the 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:21.080 primordial television set for the telling of tales and the 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:24.960 invocation of wild concepts and imagined realities. 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:27.600 I think that's a really good observation. I didn't think 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:30.359 about the comparison to the car or to the TV, 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:35.879 but yes, totally. Now there's another interesting general observation Weisner 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:39.639 makes in the introductory section, which is quote, whereas time 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:45.160 structures interactions by day because of economic exigencies, by night, 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:51.640 social interactions structure time and often continue until relationships are right. 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:55.880 And she summarizes this by saying that people in hunter 0:17:55.920 --> 0:18:01.359 gatherer societies, they tend to focus interactions on efficiency during 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:05.040 the daytime and effectiveness during the night time. So during 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:08.360 the day we need to get this problem resolved quickly 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:10.719 so we can move on with what we're doing, whereas 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:14.399 at night we can address this until it's fixed. And 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:16.480 so the author here says that her goal is to 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:20.680 investigate how firelit time is used to achieve three things, 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:23.240 and this is, in the author's words, the first thing 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:26.919 is a more accurate understanding of the thoughts and emotions 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:32.200 of others, particularly those not immediately present. Second, bonding within 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:37.280 and between groups, and third the generation, regulation and transmission 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:41.640 of cultural institutions. So, in order to investigate the role 0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:45.439 of firelight and creating productive space for these goals, the 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:50.680 author analyzed and quantified the differences in daytime and then 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:57.480 firelit nighttime conversation topics among the Jutwan people of southern Africa. 0:18:57.600 --> 0:19:01.520 And so she is working mainly from a sample of 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:07.480 one hundred and seventy four memorialized conversations that took place 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:10.840 in among a group of people in northern Botswana in 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:15.000 nineteen seventy four, and then this was supplemented with subsequent 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:18.800 visits and re recordings of some stories. And then also 0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:24.439 the analysis of this direct sampling of Jutuancie conversations and 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:29.320 activities was supplemented by a survey of written translated texts 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:34.720 on day night differences in conversation topics in other cultures. Now, 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:37.560 the author is clear about the limitations of this kind 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:40.360 of research, because it's very important to remember when you're 0:19:40.359 --> 0:19:43.920 looking at anthropology studies of this kind. Studying the habits 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:47.400 of one culture does not necessarily tell you how another 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:51.720 culture in some overlapping circumstances will function. So if you 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:54.919 see a behavior among one group of hunter gatherers today, 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:58.520 that does not give you certainty that all prehistoric hunter 0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:01.520 gatherers did the same thing. In fact, you don't even 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:04.040 know that other hunter gatherer groups in the modern world 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:06.360 do the same thing. In fact, it doesn't even show 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:08.760 you that the exact same group of people would keep 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:11.439 doing the same thing at a different time. And in 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:14.720 the case of the Jutwan people, the paper notes that 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:17.720 for many of them, the structure of life has changed 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:21.280 significantly since the mid nineteen seventies, around the time when 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:26.760 these conversations were initially recorded, with many people settling more 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:30.320 into more permanent villages with a more mixed economy, so 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:34.240 some traditional subsistence foraging, but also wage labor and selling 0:20:34.280 --> 0:20:37.679 crafts and things like that. But still, this kind of 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:41.239 cultural observation does tell you something. It doesn't show you 0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:44.440 how it always is, but it does show you with 0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:48.159 certainty one way it can be. So it's important to 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:50.520 understand the strengths and the weaknesses of this kind of 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:54.800 anthropological research. Studying one culture doesn't prove universal patterns, but 0:20:54.880 --> 0:20:57.600 it does establish a precedent something you can see. Okay, 0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:01.520 here's one way it could work. So, coming back to 0:21:01.760 --> 0:21:04.040 the question the author was trying to figure out here, 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:07.719 does firelight simply give us more time or does it 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:12.360 create a different type of time and space? And in 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:15.560 the specific case of the people observed here, the author 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:21.040 found some strong differences in what people talked about during 0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:24.800 the day versus after sunset when the illumination was based 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:29.840 on fire. So the author said that daytime conversations strongly 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:33.800 centered around economic matters, meaning things having to do with work, 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:38.720 so the acquisition of food through hunting and foraging, plans 0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:43.720 for the acquisition of food, resource availability, conversations about technology. 0:21:44.480 --> 0:21:48.200 All of this economic talk about work represented about thirty 0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:52.200 one percent of the daytime talk that was sampled. Another 0:21:52.440 --> 0:21:56.480 thirty four percent of the daytime conversation sampled was what 0:21:56.520 --> 0:22:01.879 the author calls quote verbal criticism, complain and conflict, and 0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:06.680 this basically covers all talk that is designed to regulate 0:22:06.800 --> 0:22:11.560 social relationships and hash out personal disputes. And a lot 0:22:11.560 --> 0:22:15.719 of this seems to be based on maintaining egalitarian social 0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:20.800 relationships and preventing other people from acquiring social dominance or 0:22:20.840 --> 0:22:23.600 sort of unfair social advantage. 0:22:23.640 --> 0:22:28.960 So bickering is that I think of this thirty four percent. 0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:31.199 Well, I wouldn't want to put like a normative negative 0:22:31.240 --> 0:22:33.480 spin on it, but in a way, yes, this is 0:22:33.560 --> 0:22:40.320 this is social regulatory talk where people are addressing social 0:22:40.359 --> 0:22:43.879 problems that they perceive or some kind of conflict between 0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:47.960 people and addressing those addressing those issues and trying to 0:22:48.000 --> 0:22:51.960 resolve them, which in this broad understanding, this is also 0:22:52.000 --> 0:22:54.760 a huge part of conversation, I would say, among basically 0:22:54.800 --> 0:22:56.360 any people anywhere. 0:22:56.080 --> 0:22:57.200 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 0:22:57.800 --> 0:23:02.040 Now during the daytime, another sixteen percent was devoted to jokes, 0:23:02.400 --> 0:23:07.439 joking around. Another nine percent was devoted to land rights, 0:23:07.520 --> 0:23:10.560 discussion of the use of land, four percent was about 0:23:10.600 --> 0:23:14.040 interactions with other ethnic groups, and six percent was made 0:23:14.119 --> 0:23:18.119 up of storytelling. But the author describes how as the 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:21.040 day went on and families would gather for the evening 0:23:21.119 --> 0:23:24.280 meal around the fire, the mood would tend to mellow out, 0:23:24.480 --> 0:23:28.080 losing a lot of the harshness of daytime talk. After 0:23:28.119 --> 0:23:32.320 the sun went down and in the darkness around the fire, 0:23:32.840 --> 0:23:37.840 major activities shifted and they were music, dance, and conversation. 0:23:38.400 --> 0:23:42.840 So what was that conversation about. Well, during the firelit time, 0:23:43.160 --> 0:23:45.760 she found, at least among these people in this sample, 0:23:45.880 --> 0:23:50.520 it was radically different. Quote. Night activities steer away from 0:23:50.600 --> 0:23:54.560 tensions of the day to singing, dancing, religious ceremonies, and 0:23:54.920 --> 0:24:00.320 enthralling stories, often about known people, And the difference is huge. 0:24:00.359 --> 0:24:01.959 I've got a pie chart for you to look at 0:24:02.040 --> 0:24:04.520 rob and I remember during the daytime, like thirty one 0:24:04.600 --> 0:24:08.720 percent of the talk was about economic issues, things related 0:24:08.720 --> 0:24:11.760 to work, thirty four percent was the resolving of these 0:24:11.760 --> 0:24:16.440 social disputes, only six percent was stories. During the night 0:24:16.760 --> 0:24:21.320 eighty one percent of conversation with stories, the radical shift, 0:24:21.440 --> 0:24:25.160 we're shifting almost overwhelmingly to story mode. 0:24:25.760 --> 0:24:29.240 Yeah, that is considerable, especially seeing it on the pigraph here. 0:24:29.400 --> 0:24:32.439 Eighty one percent. It just consumes everything. I mean, you 0:24:32.520 --> 0:24:36.560 got some some small percentage still allotted to you know, 0:24:36.640 --> 0:24:39.400 shop talk and bickering, but in some of these other areas. 0:24:40.119 --> 0:24:41.920 And then four percent for myth. 0:24:42.400 --> 0:24:45.199 Yeah, and so I think the myth there connects to 0:24:45.320 --> 0:24:47.840 the idea of storytelling as well, because one of the 0:24:47.880 --> 0:24:51.679 broad observations that the author makes here is that is 0:24:51.720 --> 0:24:54.880 of the idea of the night as a time of bigger, 0:24:55.359 --> 0:24:59.119